Oh Walt Whitman!

conan o'brien needs a fan want to talk to conan visit teamcoco.com slash call conan okay let's get started hey brooke welcome to conan o'brien needs a fan hey how's it going hey brooke how are you i'm great how are you i'm doing all right where i don't see where you are in the world where are you i'm in new york currently in queens you're in queens oh terrific uh and all i know about you it says here and this is fascinating to me is that you are an intimacy coordinator is that correct yeah that's correct it's the best job in the world yeah um well i'm okay sona sona why don't you tell us so excited clearly sona's the one that has thoughts about this um this is i mean this job is endlessly fascinating to me uh and i would think it's become more and more necessary as sex scenes if you think about you know back in the day it was a it was a kiss and then the camera would drift over to an open window and some billowing curtains and then pan back over and people are smoking cigarettes and the covers are pulled up to their chins so obviously as sex scenes become more graphic and realistic you need people there to make sure that everything's copacetic is that correct yeah i think the position of the position came out of the me too movement where all of a sudden the awareness of some of the abuses in hollywood became very apparent and as a result producers started being willing to pay for someone to be there both for uh guaranteeing that actors can consent to what's being asked of them uh in a private setting with someone who's not in charge of hiring or firing them oh right right and then also exactly what you're saying the artistic side of it which is the fun part is making the scenes more believable authentic compelling absurd whatever the need of that project is okay i mean i'm curious first of all how did you become how does one become an intimacy coordinator yeah well nowadays there's schools you can go to but i started back in 2016 i was an actor for a bunch of years and i tended to be an actor for a bunch of years and i tended to get cast in roles that involved intimacy or trauma and i realized that i'd taken years and years of study i have my mfa in performance and all of my teachers taught me how to get to the place of grief or fear or terror but not how to get back from it and i had a summer that i was doing three shows in a row three theater shows um where i like cried for four months basically in every show and i was like i need a way to come back to who i am that's healthy yeah so i started creating a warm down for actors and theater started bringing me in to teach it and then i'm queer i came out late in life and when i came out i realized right away i wanted to tell queer stories because i hadn't come out earlier because i hadn't seen representation of bisexuality right so i wanted to tell those stories but i realized i had a straight lens yep and so i took a year and a half to get to the point where i was like okay i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this and every day for a year i read something or listened to a podcast or watched a show or took a class all on queer sex and storytelling bdsm and kink and then theaters started bringing me in to stage that bondage scene and then one day a theater said hey will you be our intimacy director again and i was like dear google what is an intimacy director and and right about that time it was being named and people were paying for it and i realized that this thing that i was doing that involved boundaries and consent choreography and closure which is the warm down section there was now a field and so i kind of had that um you know when people say that luck is when preparation meets uh opportunity opportunity yeah that i mean that was my journey and it was awesome and then when the pandemic hit i switched to film and tv film first and then i got to do my tv scene on june 1st the first day of pride on harlem and it was a queer scene and that was pretty awesome and i was hooked oh well good i mean first of all congratulations on i'm very happy when people find it takes a long time sometimes you know it can take all different amounts of time but it can take a very long time to find sort of your calling you know what you what you feel like you were put here to do and it found it sounds like you it didn't happen overnight but you found it and that's got to be incredibly rewarding i have to say one thing is that i could see a lot of charlatans getting into the business and saying yeah i'm an intimacy coordinator but they're not are there ways that you can say i'm licensed is there a license you can get is there any way that they can patrol it so that it creeps like me don't become intimacy coordinators that's what i'm saying you're like do it guys yeah hey you guys why don't you do it and i'll watch uh conan why are we doing this at a campground quiet this is my method you know this isn't even in the scene yeah why are you taping this with an old super super eight camera so yeah that's what i'm saying is what do you know we need to stop people like me from becoming intimacy coordinator how are you doing that i'm really glad glad you brought it up because i am here specifically to stop you from doing that oh okay all right well just try uh there isn't any licensing there are schools that offer certification or accreditation or a diploma but really the marker in my opinion is sag after came out with uh guidelines for intimacy coordinators which is a number of things you should be trained in yep it adds up to a minimum i think of 75 hours and it's a lot of things that you should be trained in and it's a lot of things that you should be trained in and it's a lot of things that you should be trained in and it's a lot of and then uh in order to be on the sag after registry you have to have worked on a sag set for at least 60 days so if a producer is really looking for someone who's super qualified then that's one way to tell to tell but i also think asking someone about their process is really useful because not every ic is great for every project right and i'm a big believer that uh you need the right ic for your project um what is uh i mean i want to get into some of this because there's so much i don't understand but um there are are there devices or kinds of garments that people wear because you can't really have uh people you know touch touching each other certain parts right so what's what is the barrier to that what is because i've always heard that there are these things and you hear about and you're like i don't know what they're talking about yeah um you're exactly right it's called a barrier okay um and if it's a sag after film there can be no actual sex acts so a barrier can look a number of ways uh it could look like this this is um that is the least sexy thing of everything so when i went oh yes and you're basically holding up what looks like a giant eye patch and sounds like yeah oh yeah i'm glad there's i'm glad she has visuals okay oh okay so what is that okay so you're correct that sometimes filming these scenes is the least sexy thing you'll ever do this is a modesty garment with a barrier it's made by covier in new york and basically this is for someone with external genitalia some might call that a penis um and basically you would put all everything in here and then you would pull it tight and then it's taped to the top of like inside is a barrier and a barrier is meant to reduce sensation and prevent the transmission of fluids okay now a couple of things here first of all that thing seems huge what do you do with all the extra room is that for is that for cash and credit cards too absolutely cell phone i'm just looking at that thinking thinking like there's a lot of extra room you know i don't know but um i'm keeping a book in there uh but brooke um uh okay fluids yeah we have to talk about this is this something and i'm i'm asking if you're listening right now and there are children in the car um you know what are you doing uh but do people get themselves in a state while they're acting where there could be various secretions um honestly not very often if at all okay um if someone were to get aroused for example there are lots of things you can do to let that go just think about baseball that's what i do just think about 1975 red socks and it all goes away oh wait no it comes back with a vengeance start thinking about dwight evans that's a good looking man over there and yeah right field yeah anyway um uh so it doesn't happen that often what is oh my god what is the thing that's depicted in most sex scenes that you see that's the most inaccurate. Do you know what I mean? Something where you're like, they always do this in scenes and it's not how it really works. Well, two things actually I would say. One, a like very fast orgasm where it's like we started touching and now we're all orgasming together at the same time. Yeah. But the other I would say is we often don't see the moment of like insertion where, you know, like all of a sudden they're just having sex. But in real life, it takes some effort for the penis to find a vagina, for example. You mean the actual moment of coordinating this part goes into this part and it takes a second, right? Yeah. And I think because we're not actually doing it, people forget that there needs to be that moment of reaction of like, oh, something new has happened. Whether it's a breath or, or a slight shift or something. Yes. Well, first of all, thank you for getting the word out there that sometimes there can be some fumbling. Uh-huh. Some, some confusion about what goes where. Which hole? You know, it's, well, no, hold on a second. Maybe one knows the hole, but it's dark. You're getting yelled at. Yeah. What are you doing? Some people like that. How can, so many years and you didn't get better? That kind of thing. Oftentimes you're trying to eat a sandwich with one hand, you know, because you didn't get a chance to eat after the podcast. I'm speaking very generally. Absolutely. You know, you've got, you're looking, you're trying to watch television at the same time. Yourself on television. Well, old clips of yourself. Not current clips, but old clips of the TBS show and before that, the NBC show. Oh, okay. So much of intimacy is about reaction. So if we don't have those moments of reaction, we lose it. And so much of us get our education from media, our sexual education. And so when we show these things that are impossible, and of course, we can traumatize things, but we're doing, we're doing a disservice to folks. Well, people now watch these things and they think, oh, you know, it's easy to do it standing up in the kitchen. And it's, I'm telling you, it's not. It's not easy. Especially if the fridge is open. It's cold. You know what I mean? And then you try to incorporate cake batter that's nearby. Well, because you see it and you think, this will be a good idea. And then you get yelled at again. I need to throw up. This is so gross. Cake batter? Come on. I can't. I gotta go. Where are you going? You got nowhere to go. I gotta go. What do you use? Do you use drawings, charts? What do you do to try and instruct people when you're explaining how the sex scene should work? Kinds of things. Sometimes I just use my words. Like, sometimes I do use images. Sometimes I use action figures. You use action figures? See, we've got, we've got, we've got a little position. Wait a minute. What's happening there? I need to try and figure out what's happening. So this gentleman on the bottom is laying down, enjoying himself. Couldn't tell what the sex was of that person because it looks like a Lego. Yeah, and this other gentleman is up, one knee on the ground, one foot up, and he's pleasuring this guy. And if we wanted to turn it into a threesome, Right. we could just add her. Okay, she's underneath him. And she's gonna grab onto his leg and she's fisting. Wait, oh, she's fisting? Oh, okay. Yeah, she's gonna fist him. To this guy. She's pushing her fist. Okay, so, all right, that is two males and one, right? Describe what's happening here. Yeah, two, in this case, it's two men and one woman. Because some people are just listening. They can't see. You've got to check out the video, by the way, and it's on YouTube. You've got to see it. It's incredible. But yeah, this would be a kind of particularly difficult scene to just talk through. Yeah. I mean, try to explain that that's a. Yeah, so I have that's an Escher drawing. You don't know the stairs are turning into more stairs or turning into more. I mean, it's a very confusing. That's a Dali painting. There's a melting clock in the corner. So, yeah. Okay, I see what's happening. That's not a situation that probably comes along every day, you know? No, not that one specifically. Yeah, probably not. And what movie was that for? I got creative just for you. Is that Toy Story 5? What is that? Oh, no! You just got fired from it? You just got fired! They're now editing me out of Toy Story 5 as we speak. Don't worry, it's a $100 million fix at the last second. Pixar has the money. So, you have those figurines ready to go. I mean, it's not like you have to improvise with a G.I. Joe and a Thor and an Iron Man, right? No, I have a whole kit of stuff I bring to set. I bet you do. Whether it be the barriers you saw, these guys. I use this for a barrier sometimes. And what is that? That looks like a turkey. This is just a Squishmallow but sometimes if someone's having a rough day, it's a little bit hilarious if I just put this between the two people because you can't have a bad day when you've got a Squishmallow near you. So. I think I'm aware that I'm not an actor every time, a true actor, every time I see a sex scene. And I think I don't know how these people do this. You know, because there's 75 people around them and I just, I just can't imagine how they do it. Orgasming, you know, pretending to orgasm. It's just, you know, and then there's a sound guy, you know, two inches away from you who just had a liverwurst sandwich and, you know what I mean? Yeah. Or a cha tobacco and it's just insane. Absolutely. I mean, this is why we don't get aroused very often because there's all these people around. But you could do it if you wanted to, Conan, because it's actually so technical. Like, I worked with an actor recently on an orgasm and we choreographed it. We, like, voice-ographied it with what the breaths were going to be, what the vocal sounds were going to be so that she didn't have to make any of it up. It was ready to go. Anyone can do it if they want to do it. Okay, but here's my question. Do people ever, because sometimes they're drawing from personal experience. So when an actor is pretending to orgasm, they're really telling you often what they sound like or the sounds they make, which is very personal, right? Isn't that kind of strange? Has anyone ever revealed their sounds to you and you're like, oh, boy. Well, I think that's why this position. Go ahead. Well, I'm just saying. I'm going to take this a little further. Oh, no. Let's say you were working with me and I was in a movie where it's required that I have something of sex, okay? And there's a scene and you say, okay, Conan. And I'll say, well, let me just freestyle the first one. Yeah. And we've got the little squishy between me and the actress. Squisha, squisha, squisha. And I'm there and I'm going, you hear me freestyle and I'm going, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Walt Whitman, you know. And you realize that, oh, Jesus Christ. Those are the sounds Conan makes. And then when he reaches his climax, he shouts the name of one of our great poets, Walt Whitman. I mean, I've just revealed to you, and I think I just did right now, to everybody listening, what my jam is. That's my jam. I think that's one of the reasons that it's so important to have an intimacy coordinator, because actors should not have to bring their personal experience to set. Brooke is good at her job. I know. So you're saying you would prevent me, you would prevent me from using my true noises and my certain, peccadilloes in a scene. I would give you the opportunity to do something that the character would do rather than what you're suggesting. But what if the character's name is Cronin Orion? And he's a tall Irish guy from Boston. You know what? You go for it. Okay. Yeah. I just, I think it's endlessly fascinating. And I bet you they're always coming up with new technology. They're going to keep coming up with new things. Like, here's a spray that the guy can put, put on his penis that encases it in a inert goo that will, you know, keep his penis from becoming around. You know, they'll come up with all kinds of crazy new stuff. You know? I know they will. I don't think they have to. I want this spray. Come on, science. Hey, NASA, let's get on it. That's what we need is NASA in the intimacy coordinator. I think we could make a partnership here. I'm just saying. Um, I, I do think all foolishness aside, which is a lot of foolishness aside, but, um, it's really good that you're there doing this. Uh, and, and it's stunning to me that it took so long for people to realize that, you know, we need someone on set to make sure that the actor Yeah. is taken care of and has an uh an advocate you know in the moment and when you said i mean things that there should be so obvious but you can't be talking to the director or the producer who can be who can have you fired you need to be talking to you brooke you're there telling them i'm on your side and let's make this work for you so that's that's huge that's a great service you're providing yeah and i find that actors if they're given all the information they're ready to go for it most often there's not an issue but often in the past actors weren't given the information in advance and things weren't choreographed so it was just like go for it and then you are bringing your personal experience because that's what you know yeah uh whereas now we can say oh you've got a boundary about blank great let's talk through the story let's bring the director three other options that will work with your boundaries and that works with the story and see how we can all make this work in a way that works for everyone so that on the day the actor isn't worried about the intimacy they're able to really dig in to the acting and give it their all do you have you ever seen a couple kind of start to form a relationship when they're you know there's they clearly have you seen like oh this isn't just acting have you ever seen that yeah honestly it happens quite frequently because our bodies um respond to physical touch to eye contact to breath so our bodies can tell us we're actually attracted to someone even when we're not and that's part of why closure practices are helpful to differentiate between when i am the character and when i am myself yep um and if it's theater we're talking about and two actors start to become involved it's really important that the choreography doesn't grow with the actor's relationship because that then isn't telling the character's story anymore uh so a stage manager for example is in charge of keeping that choreography really precise so that it doesn't change uh because that's just not professional i could just see that happening all the time though people and it does people are in a movie together they fall in love yeah or you know they start a relationship because they have been in a relationship and they're in a relationship and they're in a relationship kissing each other and rolling around rubbing each other would you say they're rubbing they're rubbing no but they're they're wearing their their barriers yeah but you know and the barriers have all that extra room so they have tic tacs in there an alarm clock um an alarm clock yeah the one they got from their great-grandfather just saying that barrier had a lot extra room you know there's a 64 ounce bottle of dr pepper what's that size stuff oh good god thank you yeah you know i just don't like to waste material uh brooke fascinating what you do it really is it really is fascinating and i'm happy for you that you uh that you realize this talent and you're helping people and it's a very it's it's great it's really great thanks you will never see me on a set having an intimate scene that's i will i will always be the weirdo in the other room in any sex scene who peers in occasionally uh that'll be my role so you can teach me how to peer uh brooke thank you so much for everything and take care and i'll see you on set yeah thanks for having me i appreciate it anytime people talk about icy work it gets more normalized so i really appreciate you normalized what about me going normalized brooke you called the wrong place thanks brooke see you conan o'brien needs a fan with conan o'brien sonim of sessian and matt gorley produced by me matt gorley executive produced by adam sacks jeff ross and nick leo incidental music by jimmy vivino take it away jimmy supervising producer aaron blaird associate talent producer jennifer samples associate producers sean doherty and lisa berm engineering by eduardo perez get three free months of sirius xm when you sign up at siriusxm.com conan please rate review and subscribe to conan o'brien needs a fan wherever fine podcasts are down