OH IT’S EASY? THEN YOU DO IT Ft. Maren Morris | Episode 143

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I feel it's surreal seeing you in person, I think, the hours I've spent watching you on TikTok. I was gonna say, me and Marin, we've been mutuals for a while. Yeah. For a minute. So I know that you think I'm funny. Yeah. Which I do brag about and has been on my resume. Funny. Hope that's cool with you. I'm on there. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just funny and philosophical and even in my worst hours of the last year, I was like, I just dive into your rants and they're just, yeah, I'm just like, fuck, yes, someone said it and it's always you. Thank you. I appreciate that, Marin. And I am a huge fan of you. I think you're so unbelievably talented. And past your talent, I really admire you for how convicted you are in your beliefs. Obviously, because the specific niche of music that you make can be quite exclusionary sometimes, but you've always been very upfront about being inclusive as an artist, which I love and admire about you. And I want to tell you before I forget. Thank you. Because I make so many wiener jokes that the serious shit just flies right out of my brand. I forget. I got it. So I have to tell you early, we can, we can do both honestly, but that means a lot. I think it's just, it's becoming a little bit more, it's not as niche to like have those opinions. And we can talk to each other on a more open connected level now. So thankfully, I feel like that ages me a bit because like, my first record was literally only in 2016, but there was no TikTok. There wasn't even like Apple music yet. It was just Spotify and iTunes. And then you could like go buy the CD at Target or Walmart. But now it's like, everything is so different. And yeah, it's just, there's more channels of being able to like tell someone the full context of who you are. Totally. Not just through the channels of like the song or yeah, like a polished interview. Now it's just way more about authenticity and not overthinking everything. Absolutely. And I do want to talk to you about that because I, well, first let's get into your lore because it's extensive. But I do, I'm familiar with it. But for those that are living under a rock and maybe haven't heard of you before or know or familiar with your journey, can you talk about how you got into music like when it really like kind of took off for you? Yeah. So of course, yeah, I'm from Texas originally and outside of Dallas and Arlington, Texas. I've been performing and playing in bars and honky tongs and kind of like cutting my teeth live music wise that way for, you know, since I was 11, 12 years old, which is shock a lot of people that I was playing in bars at that age. But I learned how to sign a bar tub, how to play for three hours for drunk people. Yeah. I mean, there's a part of me that like would never do it again. But then also it pisses me off that like these TikTok artists that are like 17 will never have to go through that. Because I was like that really built some like hair skin and gumption and like you just are going to fucking get through it. And yeah. And learning to just be background noise because you're not the center of attention. Yeah. You're usually doing covers like it's you're not the star. Yeah. But you're also like as a songwriter witnessing a lot of mania, sexual detention, affairs, drunk people in bathrooms like at a young age. So as a, you know, I can only imagine as a songwriter that started in country music that that was perfect fodder for that. But yeah, I've lived in Nashville though for almost 12 years. Okay. Moved there when I was 22 to like just write for other people. Yeah. And I didn't really want a record deal or to be an artist anymore. I was like I had grown up doing that. And so after that experience you were kind of like yeah, I was just burned out like I had burned out at like a very young age. And then Nashville kind of like put the gas in my tank again to like be creative. And that's good. And like collaborate because I think I was so like Texas is so big that the music scenes there are like Dallas is so far away from Houston, which is so far away from Austin and San Antonio. And they all have their own niche music scenes. So Nashville is like the melting pot of everyone there as a transplant kind of like L.A. where it's just everyone's from somewhere else. You're all there for a reason. Yeah. And mostly creative music reasons. And not everyone's there for like country music. Like you know, there's all types of genres going on there. But I would say the main, you know, export is like the mainstream country music world. But I had like some mild success as a songwriter there like my first song that was recorded by another artist was Tim McGraw. And like, you know, OG, like that was a massive kick in the door for me. Just credibility-wise on music realm, which is where all the like publishing houses are. And then like Kelly Clarkson recorded a song on the mine. And that kind of opens up the like pop world for me. So yeah. And then I wrote this song out here actually in L.A. I was going through a breakup and I wrote this song called My Church. And I just like had this kind of nausea of like I will be sick if someone records this that isn't me. Love. And I don't know. I just marked my territory on it. And I found my manager Janet. And we put this out on Spotify with no label. Just did it ourselves. And within like two or three days it had like a million streams. Which was unheard of at the time. And like all the labels in Nashville are now like who the hell is this chick. And kind of like two labels ended up getting into like a bidding war over me. And I was able to like leverage that into like a pretty great recording deal. And then I don't know like that was the first song I ever put out. And so the rest was history as they say. That's what that's kind of what Megan Trainor said too. Like she was like I was writing for other people for a long time. And then I wrote one that I was like I need to do this one. Like this one's for me. Yeah. I think actually she and I were at the same publishing house. It was like a sort of smaller one called big yellow dog. And she I guess wrote all about that base. Yeah. And then it was like I am the only one that can record this. Yeah. So yeah. I love her. Yeah. And you have a very similar story. I love that. So after the initial like launch, like how was it like going kind of from being behind the scenes to now being completely front facing and like the future of country music at the time. At the time. Yeah. I mean it was daunting. I think I had been well prepared for it though. Just having had that background of performance. Well, that's good. And I was also 26 when my record came out. So I was already like established in the way of like my frontal lobe was developed. That's tea. I say that all the time. Every time I talk about it, I'm like because I just turned 29 not too long ago. And I every time I say that, people are like, damn, because everyone on TikTok is 11. So every time people who are my peers and make this some amount of money, they're like 17. And so whenever I talk about it, I'm like, I was an adult when I got this. I was in my mid 20s when I started doing this shit. So like I was I was grown. So sometimes the people are like, how do you think so confidently about that? Well, first of all, I'm not a child. So I think sometimes they just think I'm like 22. Yeah. I don't ever want to go back to that age. No, it was a nightmare. I'm cool with getting older. Yeah. I mean, obviously there are people that can are well equipped to handle it. Young like, I mean, not very many of them though. I mean, Taylor Swift maybe is the only one that's like started at 1415 became massively famous and never stopped being that big. Yeah. Just got bigger and didn't like lose their mind. True. At least not in a way that we've seen. Yeah, yeah, truly. So and it's hard not to you've done it long enough now. I've barely been doing it for however long. And I I'm not even kidding like two years into doing this. I was like, I get why people go and say. Yeah, I have especially like I totally get it. Yeah. There's like an annual and I prepare for it now. It's just annual like mini breakdown. Oh my god. Me too. Allow yourself the space to have one. One huge one. Clear out the cobwebs. Yep. Yep. Yep. And then you're okay. Yeah, I talk about it like expelling my venom like a snake. Like I'll die if I don't do it. No, you got it out. Someone's got to really squeeze my goiter and spit it out. Otherwise, I'm going to burn a city down. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, I'll go to the hospital. It's in everyone's best interests. I do it. Yeah, sorry. Or I'll like burn myself down and then like no one can get anything so yeah I was like this is I'm useless in that sense yeah yeah yeah so as long as you make space for like the annual breakdown I think it's okay um and we can talk about it my son's Aries okay I love that I'm a Leo rising which totally makes sense yeah uh Lieberman um so I never really identified with like Aries until my 20s where I was like oh shit I actually am extremely opinionated and stubborn and like short fuse I love Aries people what are you I'm a Virgo okay so I'm like I'm real opposite in a lot of ways Aries people I always kind of summarize them as like if you're you know when you're driving a car and you're kind of like what if I just like off the road killed everyone or whatever happens happens Aries people are that thought but if they did it I hate that you're saying this they're like I'm sure it'll be fine and so most times it works out and it's fine but that kind of uncertainty stresses me out as a Virgo like I need plans and a structure yeah I told my therapist that once where I was like I used to fantasize like in my teen years just about driving off the highway and she's like okay we need to get into this then see me being a Virgo I'm always right yeah so you you just clocked me I feel like you clocked me my soul slid out of my ass that's I said Aries people give in to that feeling and I think that's why I get along with Aries really well because I could never in a million years but like I like one of my best friends in college was in Aries and so I always describe her as like I never would have had fun or done like any of the cool shit I did and let if she wasn't in my life yeah and she would have died if I wasn't in hers so yeah right yeah respect the toxic yeah we get we get a good like balance of fun and staying alive yeah I love that yeah yeah we need that we need those people okay so well going back to your illustrious career yeah once you really start like establishing yourself as an artist and like a musician when do you start noticing where you want to be more vocal about your beliefs and how you feel like as far as ideologies go especially considering you started in country like how do you feel about that kind of it happened pretty quick just because at least in country music I don't know if they still do it this way but you know before streaming was sort of the main way we consumed music radio is still like extremely powerful yeah yeah particularly in country so we would do these things called radio tours where the label would send an artist out for six weeks to six months and just go to like 150 stations around the country like you know we're flying frontier we're flying southwest at like 5 a.m. or staying in like you know comfortance or worse yeah red roof plenty of those I do like a hampton it okay I love a hampton yeah those beds are comfortable but you just go and plan these conference rooms for program directors or like their staff and you buy them lunch and it's very bizarre and very old school and then you'll do like maybe two or three stations in a day and then you'll go out for dinner with them and it's always a steakhouse don't know why they always request a steakhouse me and you're paying for it like it's going back on your deal is that just to get them to like play the song on the radio is it like trying to wine and dine them but I mean yeah it's both it's it's very transactional yeah I will say like the the nice people I met in radio particularly always women and you know had their own acts to grind within that world because it is you know again very male dominated and so for me that was always like a weird part of the job but it was also like I got to pay my dues I don't want to complain this is what everyone else has to do including the men artists like so you know just like get get through it and I remember like I was dealing with massive strep throat throughout that entire year I ended up having to get like a ton select to me because I was sick all the time from the travel yeah yeah and um so it was gnarly but like obviously I ended up getting radio play and obviously I do think like my songs had something to do with it too like duh but also there's just a lot of ring kissing and but I think I noticed really quickly that I needed to be more vocal and like state my boundaries beyond private and do it publicly was I was at like a post show meet and greet um I was opening for Keith Urban and it was like the best tour like he's so lovely the catering was fucking bomb like I sweet talk about this catering like eight years later that's how good it was um well because not every tour has it oh I bet yeah but it was like such a cool learning experience he's like so great with everyone he works with but there was like a radio guy from the local station that came to my meet and greet after my set and was just super drunk probably on my labels dime or mine actually because it will go back to my account that I have to recoup but just got drunk before the show probably missed my entire set and then like wants to get photos after and he was just like really handsy with me and this is one of luckily not that many times it happened to me I know plenty of friends of mine it's happened to way worse so mine was like I guess one of the lucky ones but he was just super drunk and gross and like hanging all over me and giving a lot of like spouty opinions about what my next like single should be and how don't pick a ballad because people don't want to hear like sad women on the radio and I was like oh have you heard country music bitch like the whole thing is sad women Keith Urban's all some flowers and rainbows and nothing sad about like the best country songs to me are like the hard hitting like real life is not the whole point of country yeah yeah I know I mean Loretta Lynn literally has a song called the pill right it's that's real life shit and so whatever his skew of what I should be doing or what women should be like looking or sounding like within the confines of the radio of country is just and also just yeah him being really inappropriate I was like this is I got out safe on this one yeah but like I know plenty of women friends of mine that haven't and male friends too yeah male artists friends that have dealt with that shit so yeah that's kind of when my light bulb turned on of like we've got to stop like normalizing this behavior and there has to be a way to be able to be successful in this without having to deal with that yeah like stomach it yeah so in order to avoid being black wild yeah which now I mean obviously like felt a little naive to even have that optimism at the time but yeah I mean there's a lot of like boundaries and conveniently that I've set up you know in the last decade yeah I'm glad I'm glad you have especially I feel like too that's another testament to women September's always busy Whole Foods Market can help their September stock up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful nourishing food even better there are hundreds of sales get dinner going with canned soups and veggies lean on frozen pizzas pastas and seafood everyone loves their build your own family meals feeds for for just 35 dollars stock up at Whole Foods Market Acast powers the world's best podcasts new school year new podcast obsession hit play on this hey this is Kim Holderness and this is Penn Holderness and we have a podcast called laugh lines you know we're all getting older and sometimes it's fun just to laugh about it we've laughed about insane 90 song lyrics unhinge summer jobs and designing the perfect Gen X retirement home we also have some meaningful conversations about fighting Alzheimer's understanding ADHD marriage parenting empty nesting if this sounds like you welcome home you're safe here so we called our show laugh lines for you know the lines that show up on our face because we're getting older laughing but also because we have a literal laugh line it's a place you can call in and very true to us it's a landline you could leave a voicemail yep on the laugh line we actually love hearing your voices and we feel so lucky that our audience is growing older with us so what are you waiting for go check out laugh lines it's available in all the usual podcast places and also on YouTube yes I have to wear bra and hard pants when recording this show because we put it on YouTube the sacrifices we make for our listeners honey seriously we hope you join us soon a cast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts class is always in session at acast.com being so violently aware of bullshit like that so much a lot of times earlier than men do when they go through the same like a journey or career path it's kind of like the Harvey Weinstein shit like a lot of people knew already but women told each other yeah they said hey don't ever be alone with him don't ever if you ever invite you the way that women have to guard rail each other because men are doing fucking shit to protect us so we're like okay then we'll have to protect each other I can't talk about it publicly because I'll never work again so I'm just gonna warn people behind closed doors that shit's nuts I know and it's prevalent in every part of entertainment so I'm not surprised at all that it exists in music oh my god the diddy stuff like I know shit I mean we don't even know like the tip of even the tip of the iceberg of that yeah like the the way that it spreads like a fucking poison is insane yeah but that's why I'm glad that's why I admire you so much because I feel like you have been very vocal about many things And it is brave to do that. It's very scary. Trust me. I fucking know right to be like especially when when you say one thing You become like almost like the spokesperson for that entire genre right so they're now you're speaking for all of them But you're like I'm only speaking for me. I can't speak for anybody else Yeah, that's why I admire you so much. We're being so upfront about what you believe in what you think is right It's hard for people to just especially women Like do it and you're still here. Yeah, I'm still doing fantastic. Yeah, I mean, it's it's Thank you. I mean, I I think what you were saying about you can't be because I did feel like I've Have been said this in an interview before which is like I can't be the fucking like Hall monitor. Yeah all the time. Yeah for like people's bad behavior Really and like I you know, I got off Twitter after a few too many like clapbacks and It's like I never regret what I say, but it's also like I have to take care of myself Exhausting. Yeah, I'm like just those fears of you know, I have a four-year-old little boy and being doxed or like Just anyone ever being like dangerous like it's happened Just feeling unsafe like yeah, I mean I bring him on the road with me and I don't show him or his face on social media But like yeah, just those things that I can do to protect him But at the same time like if anything that I ever say comes back or like Riot's up these crazies. Yeah, yeah, cuz there are some yeah, and I've gotten into tips with like very public people Yeah, yeah You and me both. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like you're sending up almost like the bat signal on yourself to be you know Abused and so death threats like this and that like that stuff is very real like everything seems like it's only existing within the confines of Wi-Fi connection, but like it's you know when it gets real and things are being sent to your house and shit like that It's like yeah, you do have to kind of figure out ways to Maintain your morality and like do that publicly and keep that bravery, but also yeah, there's certain things where it's like I don't need to shoot this off on Twitter. I Boney learned the hard way me too. Same. Honestly, that's why I relate so heavily to what you're talking about especially Yeah, but like you only you do it like truly when someone's being like Crazy out of pocket like I I Downloaded Twitter back to watch the pearl stuff Cuz I was like you're just so well you're well-spoken and you also have like an acid tongue and like it's just so and you do it within the like However many characters they allow now Yeah, they really they really fucked up giving me more than 140 Yeah, I deleted my Twitter too though Transparenly just because like you said there has to be a balance at some point like obviously for me like This this greatness was thrust upon me in the sense of like the mantle they gave me was I did not ask for that Nor did I think that was gonna be the case. I'm happy to do it even sometimes like when I get I get criticism all the time But especially from people that are like well, I just think there's better ways to do it And sometimes I tell I tell them I'm like then fucking do it right tag in bitch I'm lonely out here. What the fuck yeah, I am fighting by myself. I am dotting an army alone. I'm John snowing Where are the allies? I know I'm the masters. I'm like where are the nights of the veil? Yeah, exactly. I'm just alone. I'm being suffocated under hundreds of bodies like and that's It is a mantle you carry it like I totally get what you're saying as far as like you become a patrol and then it's like That's all I ever do and then on top of that it's all I'm ever consuming like I had to I had to kind of like Start discerning what I did and didn't want to talk about because there are certain things that are just too horrible to platform And I refuse to yeah, and there are men that I've fucked up before in a silly way and then I found out they like genuinely are evil to their core Mm-hmm, and I refuse to talk about them anymore because I'm not giving I'm not breathing life into that name on my platform anymore For sure people like if you really want people to disappear you have to de-platform them You have to ignore them like and pretend they're dead so I do I've done that well with a woman But yeah, all me too. I did that with that woman that you just When I got engaged they were like I wonder what Pearl thinks. I don't give a fuck what she thinks Yeah, I don't care what she thinks about literally anything at all ever but especially me. I don't care No, and they're just like begging for the like engagement and yeah You kind of realize how powerful you are though because you're like when I stop engaging Even if it's not with a specific person, but even the platform. Yeah, it like it kicks up and you realize you like trade it up too Because it's like okay you traded the like stress of Twitter or X for like a New York Times bustling book Amen, that's your channel now like I know that that Twitter calls to me like the green goblin mask You know what I'm saying it like whispers and I'm like I know I know But mostly honestly the only reason I felt like that about Twitter was because on Twitter I really could be me in there. Yeah see like when I'm fighting on TikTok That's me finding with two hands I'm on my back if they really let me these people would never show their face in public ever again Yeah, we're going into the gutter right yeah, but Twitter is such a hellscape that I can say whatever I want on there and that's not a good thing Yeah, yeah, that's actually really yeah, we need to be regulated a little bit just a tiny bit I need a little bit of a leash. I'll admit it. Yeah, sure of course I do. It's so true like I when I read downloaded it For your discourse to watch my fight. I hadn't been on in like three years and so after Elon took over it I was like this is insanity on here nasty and it's gross And I had like a burner account and I was like I can't be on here like what the hell am I watching it's just like porn clips and like AI crazy like I know it's just insane. It's gross over there I know it's going down and it's going out fast. I'm glad you I'm glad you deleted. Yeah I got out while the building was burning. Yeah, I went out on top. I'd say I that's when you have to know when to fold them Yeah, just yeah, get out right after you bested a bitch Well, that's why I think you're you're fantastic in that sense too because it's one of those I feel like and I'm sure you agree with The sentiment to where there's a certain there's certain levels where I'm like yeah debating with you is not gonna Give me anything because you want to go viral and you can't do it without me Mm-hmm, and then on top of that like you just are committed to misunderstanding me because every time I like the three times a year I'm like trying to be serious in the shit. I'm saying like I'm not I'm not telling them mean jokes about what they look like The three times I do it. They're always like well then you should invite me on your show and debate me Why the fuck would I do that? Yeah, who is that benefiting? Yeah, girl. What do I get out of that other than psoriasis like my scalp Yeah, I don't want you near me. I know. I'm gonna catch something. Yeah, I think you being like yeah, I don't need to Engage with this anymore. There's power in that there's autonomy in that which I love there is and I think like they only kind of Gain notoriety not a righty son is so southern just no notoriety They only gain that through yeah exactly like you said your engagement and you just realize like how powerful Your pen is or your your your statements are and that like is scary as hell because it's like I didn't realize what I was saying Ment this much, but I guess it does and it like really starts to pick up traction with like Tabloids or like just stupid press outlets and you're like oh my god like that was just it was literally a tweet And it was a passing moment, but now it's like I still look back at everything and I'm like I stand by everything I said But it's yeah, I there's no regret like the intention was absolutely correct Yeah, no, I'm at what I said I just like I don't need to say it anymore or ever like speak to you again Yeah, so yeah, I just enjoy that life, but um no, it's it does get exhausting But I there's such a like liberation from it too because it's like I've had to walk away from a lot of toxic things in my life like even recently is just Bubbling up into a lot of like identity things to with my like genre of music and like the things I love about country music Like the the lyrical realness the songwriting integrity my community in Nashville, too Which is still very much there like I write a lot out here in LA But my my close friends the people that I built something in a sound with or Nashville based so and it's very like This is the thing to not that I want anymore people like coming to Nashville because it's like getting so crazy Yeah, it's such a melting pot that like everyone's just it is progressive and yeah, I feel like it's it gets this bad rap Because it's kind of steeped in a lot of these conservative ideals and like misogyny racism like that's all obviously Very much still there and not just Nashville like you know everywhere, but I think There's still something about that place that like I have not pulled the plug on and it like keeps me there because it's like I was talking to It was like at the glad awards last summer I was getting an award and so it was Jonathan Van Ness and I know and show two we love them They live in Austin, Texas now. I was like why I love Austin. Yeah, I I mean, I think that too when I see their posts I know and I'm I'm from Texas Austin's like one of my favorite cities in the world But just knowing Jonathan's lived in like LA, New York I was like you chose to live in Austin why and they were like well We we shot a season of queer eye there. I fell in love with the city Mm-hmm, and they were like I just feel like I I can affect more change living in the state where these laws and Are actively abusive totally then living in a a city where it's extremely progressive Everyone kind of like votes and things the same as you for the most part, which is like, I totally get that too. It's like you want to flock to a city of safety, yeah, that's absolutely fair, but I think that kind of what JVN said about that, I was like, I think that's what keeps me in Nashville too. Yeah, totally. It's like, I feel like there's a community there that's like building and building and we need to have like allies there to keep it building. Absolutely. All like become expats and live in New York and London or LA, it's just you lose really beautiful places that were meant for something more than that. Yeah, they've over time evolved into something that feels very exclusionary and very bigoted, which is not anyone's not our fault who are existing currently right now, right, who actively want to change that and don't want to be the case. But I think that's a powerful thing too, like wanting to want to show people all the wonderful beautiful parts of Nashville as opposed to what it's become known for, which is again, I think that's a powerful thing too. I think it's important, like and I've talked about that before when people ask me like, oh, like do you think there's any hope for change? Like, do you think that like men are going to change and blah blah, and I'm like, well, none of the men I sit you're going to fucking change, I can promise you that, they're going to die that way. But that's besides the point. I was like, I don't think change will come from people who inherently hate minorities or marginalized people, just all of a sudden turning on a light. I think what's going to change is we build something new. That's what changes. And we leave them to die out like their bloodlines should stop and we should leave them to die. And then we should focus on each other and we should focus on building community within each other and we should grab all the people on the fringe, people who are at risk of tipping to that side. Those are people you can get. You can't get people who made up their mind. I know. So I feel like that's how you feel about Nashville. It's like, well, I'm going to let those people die out, but I'm going to carve out something new that will focus on what I love about Nashville and what you love about country music, because country music is beautiful. I don't know a lot about it. But it is beautiful. Well, it is. And there's such a huge fan base that's younger now for it, which really happened in the last couple of years. But living in Nashville, I think like Gen Z, Gen Alpha, I have a four year old. So I think also the other thing about communities, the kids that are being raised in that bubble which is in the south or whatever, it's like people are getting, I think, smarter and more aware and like kinder. Yes, we have to like keep a grip on, you know, just everything being social media based and like everything being instantaneous. But I do think what, like the good parts of that have been that we can talk to each other. We can see someone's point of view that lives, you know, thousands of miles away. Totally. There's like a gift in that, there's obviously downsides too, but I think that's, it's made, I mean, my son's not on any sort of platform, but like he's, he's so kind and empathetic. And like, that obviously comes from like my, my ex and myself, but in like his community. But that gives me hope because it's like, totally. Okay. Absolutely. You're a little kid, you know, you're privileged like because of me and like, but you are growing up in this town. Yeah, and it just, he's traveling a lot, he tours with me and there's just something about that that makes me feel like, okay, maybe it's going to be okay. Let's talk about hate. You get a lot of hate. I have. I know you did when you were leading Crusades. I'm a fan. I remember. Yeah. A lot of. As far as an artist. A lot of hate. Yeah, I'm sure because it's like the squeaky wheel, you know, but I think also it brought a lot of love into because it's just people that had no idea that maybe you would never listen to country music. We're like, wait a second. I'm not even kidding. I do remember when you were getting in public beef on Twitter and shit, like sending out for people. I remember people saying like, which I thought was funny and which is what made me like you, which was they would say, I did not know that she was with the shits like that. I did not know that they were doing it like that over their country music. Yeah. I think it's hilarious. I think that's so wonderful. Thanks. They're like opening people's perspectives. Yeah. There's a good few of us doing that in Nashville, but like, yeah, it certainly, it definitely opened up a lot of channels of like crazies and, you know, the Tucker Carlson thing and like some other bitches, I won't name, but I, yeah, I was just like, that's interesting, but also it's just, it kind of levels out the playing field and you're like, okay, I've never been called this and now I have and I survived. I think I'm going to be okay. I think it's going to be okay. Yeah. Well, let's transition quickly into your new music. I would love for you to tell us about the new music, how it's going, and what people can expect and what they can be excited to hear from you. Miss Marin Morris. Yes. So I put an EP out like two months ago or so called intermission, it's just like five songs. I'm working on a full album, but I have this song that I wrote actually last year with my friends, Laura Belton, Jack Antonoff, and I, I don't get enough, obviously, everyone. Yeah. Ever heard of him? Ever heard of him? He's a small indie artist. Yeah. Yeah. Hope he makes it big one. He works with a couple of women. You wouldn't know him. Yeah. I hope he makes it big. Yeah. I'm praying for him. Me too. Hard times. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard being him. But yeah, he's the best. And I wanted to put that out like a long time ago, but I was like, if something about right now, it's called people still show up. And that is, that's never been more true than this particular year for me because I went through like a lot of shit on the personal end and professionally, just a lot of changes. And I just realized like my world got smaller in terms of like I didn't need as many people in it to feel whole, yeah, like kind of downsized, but I was just like, wow, it's all quality people. Yeah. conversations, even if I don't remember all of them. Like we showed up for each other, they showed up for me. It's also like for my fans, like coming to shows, like it's, you know, on a year I didn't put an album out, still coming to shows this summer. I was like, y'all have been supportive as fuck. So I was like this song is for you. But yeah, um, and then I'm just finishing this record. I'm very exciting. Yeah. What are you looking forward to as far as your career down the line? Like are there any collaborations that you would like love to see or you maybe can tease? Yeah. If you feel so inclined. Um, I mean, like obviously I would love to make another record with my band The High Women, which is like me, Brandy Carlisle, Natalie Hempi and Amanda Shires. Uh, if we ever like are in the same city again, we will make that happen. But, um, I think for me, I just want to like be able to tour and, um, you know, I've kind of changed labels in the last year. And it just all feels reset for me right now, which is cool. You're resetting a table though. Exactly. But it's cool. It's like I, nothing scares me anymore. I've been kind of been through it all. And I, I like this sort of like fresh reset phase of like, I'm working with a lot of random people that I love and I'm fans of and it just makes me so happy. I wrote a song with Muna that came out online. Muna here. Yeah. We're big lesbian, filled house. So we love Muna here. Muna knows we love them. Yes. Um, always and forever. Incredible songwriters, like obviously in the Naomi is just a badass producer. Yeah. So, um, they're so crazy talented. It's crazy. I know. And also just like hilarious. Yeah. It's annoying. They're too talented. Knock it off. Muna. That's morning. Yeah. It's like we, we will write the song. But then it's like almost like the songs, not the priority that day. It's like just about the hang. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me. You have to like remind each other like, oh shit. Like we should probably write something. Yeah. We just like Yammer on. Right. But yeah. They're too funny. I love that. How exciting. Oh my gosh. All my fans who are gay, which is all of them. Um, they're all going to freak out when they hear that. Oh my gosh. How exciting. Okay. Oh, well, I do want to ask you this like as far as September's always busy. Whole Foods market can help their September stock up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful nourishing food. Lean on frozen pizzas, pastas and seafood. Everyone loves their build your own family meals feeds for for just $35 stock up at Whole Foods market. At QVC, fall shopping is more than just checking out. It's discovering the brands you love across beauty, fashion, home and culinary all in one place. Whether you're getting ready for crisp mornings, cozy nights or everyday moments, QVC has what you need for the season ahead with brands like Laura Geller, philosophy, ninja and so many more shop now at QVC.com. When it comes to like melding the worlds of like your personal beliefs and ideologies and your music and then having very real fear, like if like, oh, what if this, you know, alienates an audience, what if this makes people not like me or not want to buy my stuff or stream my art or whatever. So for people who maybe are struggling with that kind of mentality, what would you say is your best piece of advice for them, especially if they're women and if they identify as anything marginalized, they're already kind of working against an uphill battle. I think that's another reason why a lot of people are like, "Oh, I don't want to talk about it." about politics. I don't want to talk about like what I believe in because I don't want you know sometimes labels or brands or agencies they make you kind of not show certain parts to yourself so that you don't alienate anyone or a consumer. So what would you say is your best piece of advice for those ones? I mean if you're anyone but like a white cis straight male like your existence is inherently political and politicized so there is no escape from that. I think you know I'm like a privileged white woman but in the the strictures of country music there are like obviously uphill battles being a woman like still are like any radio play like it was still extremely slanted like it's not in the favor of us. So I just think at your own peril or risk like you are gonna go against things that make your skin thicker and you will get an armor over time but you don't know until you go and like I think for me I never set out to be like this activist artist it was just and I still write songs that are just like relationships songs like songs about like a one night stand like whatever but like of course I've gone there on songs too where it's like I want this to this is meaningful to me and this goes beyond like just the surface level worldly relationships like this is something that like I wrote a song years ago called better than we found it after George Floyd's murder and it was really just a song I wanted to dedicate to my son who was like like eight months old at the time and it was just a really important song for me to put out and of course I could have sat on it it could have sat in my inbox for years but like it really meant a lot to people and it meant a lot to me and like it ended up getting like a Grammy nomination and you just don't know until you like go for it and but I also I'll never like judge people for being afraid because it's fucking scary it is yeah to put yourself out there I agree especially if you're like you were saying you were playing in bars for years and like you know wanting to be an artist or or just be able to put your art out there a lot of times all my friends who are musicians like they never planned on ever like being famous like they just wanted to make art and it worked they worked out but then I I feel like too at the same time obviously I'm just a dickhead online and my my thing is antagonizing people I go in a nice swing on people who are not looking at me all the time um but I always feel like if this is like like everything you work towards like you work so hard to build your career and and something like putting out a song like that could very well unravel all of it but I always think like what is even the point of having it if I'm not going to use it to do something like do something good like to put something in the world or leave something behind that is good inherently or is meant for a good intention people so it's like I don't if that's what it costs like if it costs me sacrificing pieces of myself that I believe in or I feel very strongly about I don't want it like I don't want the fame I don't want the money I don't want any of it if it means I have to like hide certain pieces so I that's why I said I really admire you for doing that like and you being a white woman is it's it's very important that women who look like you do the same thing it's like it's just like when I stand up or you stand up for trans women it's important that cis women are fighting alongside them it's important that we check each other it's important that we clock each other and we tell each other like it's important that we believe in these things and we talk about them openly too because it matters yeah because no one's free until we're all free I know I mean so I admire you for that I think it's I think it's fantastic and the fact that you continue to do it I truly believe just like just like Megan trainer I truly believe good people are rare and that's why you've lasted this long like that's what you're doing so well thank you I'll give you more flowers I'll give multi-marin no that means so much I mean like you have just found like a really brilliant way of well obviously speaking to your audience but also growing an audience because of your honesty but also the way that you articulate even if it's like you're eviscerating someone you're doing it from a place of like the building blocks of the the educational purpose of it so that's really fucking hard to do and I speak as someone that doesn't do it well like I am extremely emotional and like I should have taken like debate team in high school or something so I could properly form a sentence in person with people like just if I'm angry I just cry yeah I feel you so Twitter that's why Twitter was always like it's good for me I know I was like I can do this and like think about what my words are but like no it's like a really uh once in a generational type of thing that you've created and it's like as someone that's like always consumed media like I like grew up on Brittany and Christina and like I was like this kind of pop cultural thing of creators like you there's a lot of people making incredible content but also like figuring out how to like do it in a really succinct impactful way that's not distracted it's like extremely laser focus thank you it's just very inspiring that's very sweet thank you so much yeah I sometimes I describe it as like like when you have to give your dog pills put it in cheese and give it to him oh my god see like you just like you did it perfectly come here I'm gonna give you this pill but don't worry it's gonna taste good and then you'll be healthy and everyone will it'll it'll be fine but I always tell people to I'm like I know if I'm your introduction to intersectional feminism I think that's fantastic I think it's wonderful and I always say please don't stop with me yeah there are far more people that are far more educated than I and far more like equipped to explain things to you in a much more historical and factual way my way is telling people to suck my weener sure that works for you period works for me too you're the gateway drug there you go that's how I said you just start with don't stop with me you can start with me you just don't stop with me yeah but I I really do appreciate that and I appreciate your fucking artistry I think you're just I think you're so fantastic and I think honestly a lot of times women who write like write music for a long time period you guys are some of the most genius women alive first of all that's all like the way your brain works I envy that I have no musical capabilities whatsoever I got nothing I got nothing god said give that bitch funny and that's it yeah so that's what he gave me and I'm like well yeah I can make you laugh yeah I can't like I can't romance you with a song but yeah but it's still like a creative thing too because it's like some days I've got nothing like some days I my brain deletes and like I forget how to write a song like I I just it's everything is overthought and awful and like you just have to accept that those are the days where you're like oh this was just like a chicken shit day just sucks I suck especially when you're writing with moona they're too distracting yeah I like thank god Katie's here to write some words because my brain's mush I'm just gonna be the singer today yeah for real okay so to wrap us I will say just for a close some closing thoughts for anyone who's listening any sort of aspiring just I would say just musician in general not having to do with beliefs or ideology or anything like that do you have any I know being an artist I feel like especially like you said with tiktok a lot of people are kind of taking rainbow road a little bit cutting out the the part where they get to kind of cut their teeth like you were saying earlier so for any up and coming artists from musicians or writers or anything like that do you have any advice for them entering this new kind of world of music it's kind of shifted like you said drastically in the last 10 years so and I have like so much you know sympathy for that too because I'm lucky I got in before all of that was the only platform yeah but I would just say like I know this is extremely you know been all advice at this point but you just have got to be patient because if you believe in your thing and almost you have to be delusional like you have to I told you about all the time I say that too it's I mean that's the word for it but like you can say like ambitious or whatever but you're delusional yeah you have to have like a sparkle of that like you always know when someone has too much you're like okay my god you want this too bad people can smell it yeah for real no just be patient because like you know if you're making music in your bedroom in like the Midwest or if you're moving to LA or Nashville or wherever you just have to like swallow that pride of like there are a lot of fucking talented people yeah in front of you in the line yeah and like if you are good and you keep practicing and showing up and not being fucking late not flaking like whether you write alone or with other people or whatever you want to do I'm just really kind of talking about songwriters but our artists it's like you've got to grow your thing and find ways of course creatively to to set it apart but like just it's okay if it doesn't happen this year like overnight yeah because like for me I've gone through ebbs and flows in my career like it's been 10 years more so if you count like my teenage years of touring but like I've had moments where I've had like massive hits that year and then I've had like years where there hasn't been one yeah and but I can tour and like I can build a fan base over time and like have something identity wise to say and like a connection with them that goes beyond a big fucking song on TikTok or the chart like you have to build over time and that is when you start to see artists have like decades long careers no for real and honestly when chapel was on she's like some people I hate the industry plant shit and she's like because I've been doing this for 10 years I got signed when I was like 14 yeah and I was like I know I know that about you but she's but because people see her on TikTok they're like oh my god just like overnight everyone's talking about her but everyone's overnight until like if you haven't heard of them. So it's like there's always a backstory. I said that about my book when men were discrediting me getting a bestseller they were saying like oh everyone's the bestseller. I go you know what you think that because you don't fucking read. Yeah. So the only books you hear about are bestsellers aren't they? Yeah you're hearing about my book yeah that's because you don't fucking read bitch. So like you're like don't worry there's an audiobook for you. Yeah I'm like oh they really can't read it. For real you fucking illiterate bitch on top of that though. I'm like on top of that the fucking book thing. I'm like okay well if it's so easy you go do it. Yeah. Like we know how it works out. Yeah. But if it's so easy apparently it's so easy according to men who never read can barely read and got scared to get called on class to read apparently it's super easy so. Mm-hmm. All and I went on a look for that whole summer and every time I talked about it my sister was like which is super easy so no one should clap it's like super fucking easy. Yeah. It's not impressive. It's really easy. Yeah. He's got that and do it. That's why I don't like it. That's why they're like oh that's so easy what she does. Yeah. You're like okay. Yeah. Then you go do it. I know. I also get what you mean too about like there's a lot of talented people in the world. I think that all the time too that's why I think people like you have such long careers and like establish such like strong roots because you're a good person and you're really fucking good at what you do. Like it's just it's impossible to not see you that's what I always think like that's operating from I think a scarcity mindset when people are like oh like what about this what about that. I always think I'm going to shine regardless. Yeah. All the talented people let's all go together. Yeah. Let's let's let's link arms and listen I go through that too. Everyone does it's human like a scarcity thing or just like feeling an envy like because it's happening for your friend and not you like that's normal and that's you just have to like hunker down again for like the ebb and the flow like if you are constantly like anvil on the gas pedal you're going to burn out really quick. Yeah. You're not going to keep people around. You're going to like probably crumble yourself like you know mentally. Yeah. And there's just no longevity in the short game. So for me this is why I've said like I'm glad American Idol and the voice and like all these competitions like rejected me like when I auditioned in my teen years. You're listing all of them. There's like 10. There's probably more I haven't mentioned but I was like thank god. Yeah. There's quite a few I think like you. I would have burned through it. Yeah. Like I would have gotten so over it and then like I wouldn't I wouldn't have been ready talent wise or mentally. Yeah. Oh see. So it's kind of like if you have this massive fucking TikTok moment. Yeah. It's like amazing and people are like they've got eyes on you. Then it's like what's next. Yeah. Dance. Like you have to dance. Yeah. You're wearing matching outfits. And now you have to create a dance. Yeah. Yeah. Literally. One of my first when I first blew up a brand reach out to me. I don't remember what it was. And they were like oh we want to work with you. And we're like okay cool. Like my agent's kind of talking to them. And they were like yeah we're doing this TikTok dance and like this is what it is. And they sent it to me. And my agent didn't really know me that well at the time because I think we'd only been working together for a couple of months. And she was like how do you feel about this? I was like oh no. Yeah. I don't do that. So yeah. Oh no no no no no no. Tell them thank you. Peace and blessings on your household. No thank you. Yeah. If I'm doing it and no shade but if I'm doing it it's as a joke. That's what I mean. Yeah. That's what I'm saying for money. I'm drunk. No. And I'm with my friends. Yeah. It's for funcies. Yeah. Funcies. That's different. Yeah. That being said for the right amount of money. Would I do it? I don't know. It's not off the table. Let me know. Yeah. For an enough zero. Let us know. Yeah. Let us know. Let me admire. No. Okay. So we'll wrap really quickly. But I want to thank you very much for coming on the show. I think you're just fucking fantastic. Oh my God. Thank you all. I'm obsessed with you. I'm so excited. Well everything you're doing. The best seller thing was like such a massive win through you but also like for all of us that are fans. It's like we get to sell it right it with you. Two. And then also congrats on your engagement. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thank you. Oh Mary and Morris. Oh my god. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my god. That's so crazy. How did you know? I'm waiting for my invitation in the mail. Mary and Morris. If you want to come to my wedding, I am going to invite you and you cannot rescind it because it's on camera. So I'll sing it. I'll sing the middle at the reception. What do you want? The way I got chills on my spine. The way I got butterflies. Okay. All right. Look. I'm assuming for free verbal contract binding. Your team is here. Thank you very much. I appreciate y'all. But thank you for coming on the show. I think you're fucking awesome. And I can't wait to see what you do. I'm so excited for your new music. Thank you. And she sent me a sneak peek of it. Suckers. Yeah. I listened to it not you sucker. So you need to get into it. But for those that are born yesterday and haven't met you or heard of you, well obviously none of you have met her. I've met her. Again, sucker. Where can everybody find you? All the normal shit. Mary and Morris on literally everything and then any music or anything you want to plug. My song people still show ups out. Yeah. Go go listen to it. There's probably not going to be a dance for me on it. But someone make one. Yeah, go for it. I will promote it. But I'm not the girl. Not the girl to ask for that. But you can listen to it on Spotify or favorite platform. You can listen to this episode with Mary. And then you can go listen to all of her discography. It's extensive and fantastic and wonderful. But thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you all for tuning into this week's episode of the comment section. Don't forget new episodes. Drop every Wednesday. You can stream the audio on all streaming platforms where you can watch the video for free and exclusively on our favorite platform. Spotify right after you listen to all of Mary's music on a loop for at least an hour. That's an order. That homework. All right. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you all for watching. And I'll see you next week. Bye. Hey cast powers the world's best podcasts new school year new podcast obsession hit play on this. Did you know there are three thousand different names for colors in the dictionary or that leprechauns were once called shoemakers. Those are the kinds of things I love talking about on the grammar girl podcast. I'm a neon Fogarty and I've been hosting grammar girl for 20 years now. Can you believe it? On Tuesdays I share quick tips to clean up your writing and stories about language you'll want to text to a friend like the word recipe first referred to a list of medications you'd get from a doctor. And on Thursdays I sit down with authors, freelancers and the people who actually make the dictionaries and style books we all argue about. Find grammar girl on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen and give it a follow so you don't miss an episode. Acast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts. 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