OG Science of corn calendars, seed ceremonies, & sun daggers

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Forever my lady, one of the most influential R&B and Pop groups of all time. Show to see Friday, November 27th, Lucas Oil Live at Windsor with special guests. Bobby Brown. Get tickets now at Windsor.com and Seaky. More info at jodacy35.com. It was a warm late spring morning, just before our solstice, filming on a tree for lands within the beautiful Fort Capellan Valley. And we were grateful to speak with Dr. Gregory Cajete, Tewa, who said to Claire Pueblo, who Mexico. But now, indigenous science is truly the OG, original science, and his lifework of weaving together indigenous and western science. We spoke about the connections between corn, seeds, and the cosmos, biofilia versus biophobia, creation stories and science, being in relationship with plants and animals, sun daggers, and moon daggers, and the solstice project, and quantum thought. But without any further ado, it is such a pleasure and an honor for me to introduce the legendary Dr. Gregory Cajete. I'm so grateful to have you here today. As we're here on beautiful treaty four and Fort Capell between, what is it, the echo in the mission lakes, which is a beautiful area, and I'm just so honored to speak with you, you haven't inspired so much of my work with the book "Native Science" and so many of your other books, and really allowed me in my early career to be able to validate indigenous science as sun daggers. So with that, please, if you'd like to introduce yourself and your own way. Well, well, first of all, thank you for inviting me into this conversation. It's a little honor and pleasure to do that. And remember, back when we first met, I remember, you know, your excitement about learning, you know, that there actually is a way to talk about another kind of science, indigenous science, native science, and so I just, you know, just commend you for continuing to do this kind of work in the context of, especially now for younger people who really are just beginning to have the notion that there can be some other ways of knowing, understanding and also reconnecting to their own ancestral identity, that there is a history of, and a very rich and powerful history of native science, that should be, you know, accessed, especially by the younger generation, as they move forward, you know, with this, with this kind of knowledge, this kind of perspective. So my name is Greg Cajati. My full name is Gregory Anthony Cajati. I am from Santa Clara Pueblo, which is one of six Teiwa-speaking Pueblos, north of San Faye, we are most noted for being the, the group of tribes that led the Pueblo revolt of 1680, which drove the Spanish, which had colonized New Mexico for a hundred years back to, or had colonized New Mexico, but forced them to go back to Mexico for a period of time, and regained our sovereignty as communities. And so when they came back, they had a new respect and somewhat of a fear for that revolt to happen again. So that was a real constitution of the relationship we had with the Spanish. And I think that really as tribes in the United States that allowed us to maintain our homeland, to keep our homeland, and also to keep our communities intact. And that has continued to be one of our strengths in that community, and not being removed from our homelands, so that today we are, you know, continuing to practice our traditions, our language. Yeah, pretty much like we have always done. But being, that being said, that doesn't mean that we haven't been impacted by language law, so by, by another kind of colonization, which I call modernization, so that we are now really dealing with kind of the impacts and the, the aftermath of that. Just as other tribes, you know, throughout the United States, Canada are involved in various aspects of reclaiming parts of themselves. In our case, it's just that they haven't been practiced, and so we're finding ways to repract a certain kinds of things that we've always done. Yeah, and that's, and that's having that connection with land and growing up on the land. And that's how you kind of got into this. You've always been doing, experiencing indigenous science on the land. Yeah. My family, my extended family, and I have to give a particular credit to my grandmother. You know, we have always been farmers, and, and so, you know, my connection to, to plants, for example, I ended up, you know, getting a degree in, in plant biology, but I think that, that interest in plants and interest in nature and being out in the natural world was, was really facilitated by my grandmother, because I spent a good time with her, you know, in her household. And it was a real learning experience because I accompanied her to, we have what we call feast days, so various, one of the things that we had to do, it was to convert to Catholicism or at least outwardly. And that was also, there's a huge story about that in terms of the strategy that, that also maintained us as very specific communities, but in any case, you know, we, I grew up in a, in a context where I was always involved with, I was always outside, I was always doing something with plants or with animals, I was always in the gardening, or we were, we're a part of this agricultural cycle that all the families in the community, you know, were a part of as well, you know, planting and harvesting, and then in between we would have different kinds of dances, ceremonial dances, you know, that would commemorate all of the different stages of growing corn, and I mean, all of the different stages, from the planting to its harvesting and its celebration. So that was a part of the calendar, the traditional calendar that was all based on corn cycles, the calendar. And then of course, she. you know, there is a process to farming and different kinds of things you do different times during that cycle. And so, and to me that was just the way we did things. It was not, I wouldn't consider it a special knowledge until later on in my life, you know, but it was a special kind of knowledge. It's amazing. And in that, of course, how to use plants for food and medicine. Besides the plants that you grew, they were just a gamut of other plants that were collected for varieties of purposes and reasons, you know, for medicine to make saves, you know, to eat as a part of, you know, your regular meals to to make teas from to to do traditional dyes, for example. So all of those kinds of things were things that I learned at a very early age, really as soon as I could get out and, you know, company. We would go on herb walks and different kinds of things because it was the gathering happened during different times of the season. The plants were ready to be collected. So I think that was the major, for me, kind of the forming, I guess you would say a conditioning, you know, for not only being interested in plants, but just, you know, interacting, participating in that process that we as a community and as a family participated in in terms of nature and the cycles of nature. And being a part of that. So I consider myself lucky to have grown up in that kind of context, you know, and I think that really did influence my interest in science. I did very well in science in school. And I think that was one of the reasons why is because I had a kind of innate interest in learning more about the natural world and because I had had that foundation, which really is, I think, one of the essential kinds of understandings is that you have to create a foundation or have a foundation or facilitate a foundation for students to really begin to have an internalization of a kind of a passion to learn about the natural world. I think that we all have that instinct. I talk about the biofuelic instinct in many of my talks. And it's a term that was first used by E. O. Wilson, who was very famous to Harvard ecologist. And they call him the Antiman also because his filthman. His focus was on ants and how ants really are amazing creatures, you know, and we have in public tradition a lot of stories about ant people about the ants, yeah. So that also was I think one of the reasons why I used his word biofilia. And the opposite of that, and I'll talk about it later on in the interview is biofobia, which is a fear of nature. So biofilia is the love of nature, the love of the land. And he says it's an innate instinct that we all have. You know, we have an instinct. It's an idea to have propensity to interact with nature. But biofobia has developed in modern times, which is that fear of nature and, you know, power over nature, you know, finding ways which Western science, you know, really in many ways, you know, is a discipline that was designed to find ways to have and to create power over nature. Whereas indigenous science is really participation with nature. So that's that's the basic difference between the two. And of course, I gained that foundation of participation in nature just by way of my life, you know, in my to me and in my family. So in school, the science thing was always I always look forward to that. And I always look forward to art. Yeah, because that was another kind of reinforcement and foundation that I had gained. Because many people in my community and my family did art. You know, mostly pottery, you know, which was done by largely the women at first, but also men started to do it a little bit later on. And of course, pottery is a whole indigenous tradition that's based on clay and based on understanding how to manipulate clay into these beautiful pots and the designs and the symbolism associated with those, those creations. Yeah, the deep connection with your lands. And it turns out that at least for a lot of public people that, you know, they're really 1900s. A lot of native people would make a living from their traditional art forms. And certainly that was the case in New Mexico. Because the train was, you know, train came into New Mexico and brought tourists, you know, both from the East Coast and the West Coast. And so Native people began to and we had always traded among ourselves. But he was a new population that was interested in things indigenous, you know, at least in our traditional art forms. And so I think that also influenced me in my interest in art. And I didn't see, I mean, art was really symbolizing, you know, painting, drawing, the sculpting, what I was experiencing in nature. So there were, there was a natural balance between the two that I had always seen. There's such a connection, right? Yeah, to have the early, the early connection, like you're saying in biofilia and having that love of the land and that relationship and understanding the science of plants and plant medicines and even pottery and, you know, the chemistry and the. And then, of course, the creativity. Yeah. You see, that other kind of instinct that we have, learning instinct has to do with creativity. And so in Native life, you know, we have a lot of creation stories, how things get to be what they are. And that becomes, you know, another kind of way to talk about this other instinct of creativity that is so much an integral part of both art and science. And also the way of being human, you know, in the world. And so I was also gifted with the fact that, you know, I kind of intuitively understood that. I didn't understand that intellectually until much later, of course, but intuitively, you know, that was that kind of like made sense. So it was not a big division, you know, so. Which it is now. So it was connected now. Well, which I realized, you know, as I went on in school, that they put these different ways of being human, you know, doing science or doing creative art into boxes. And that they had kind of a moat built around them. You were either one of the other, but you couldn't be bald or you couldn't be other things. You can be bald with that. So it was a very interesting, you know, experience learning. But I have to say that in my time going to elementary school, the elementary school was maybe right over there where those trees are. That's how far it is into the. So for me, it was just another part of my territory, you know. And they're probably more in those trees than doing elementary school. So I was. So I didn't have. I was very quiet, so I didn't talk very much. I listened, which is what I was. You know, my grandmother, you know, you better listen to her once she says you listen. So in other cases, you know, it was really, I think, just that quality of listening and really internalizing whatever it was being taught, you know, sort of sponging it up. So I didn't have trouble in school in that academic way, but in terms of things like, you know, doing what the teacher wanted in terms of assignments and things like that, I didn't take that seriously. So until I was in the fourth grade, you know, so I was actually a good student in my mind, but until the fourth grade, I didn't really catch to the game of school. the game of school, which was, you know, do what the teacher says, do the assignment. And, you know, put down things that have been said, that you know will be correct. Get them right answer, and we'll get things memorized. Yes. You've not experienced. So, yeah, so in that time, I would say from the first grade to the fourth grade, I was considered kind of, I would say probably a D student, you know, although to me, I knew everything. You knew it all, yeah. But I was not articulate in terms of telling that kind of thing until I realized, oh, well, this is what it takes to make the grade, you know. So I'm starting to be accundemized, you know, at the fourth grade level. The fourth grade? Yeah. Yeah. So you grew up with the land with the elders, and is there a time, I mean, it could have been when you were growing up or anytime recently, that there was a teaching from an elder, a knowledge keeper, that was a boat science that really took you back, that really surprised you. Yeah. Well, there's been several of those instances, but I'll go back to my grandmother and her speaking in the Taylor language, really in some ways reflecting some of the thoughts and perspectives, you know, that plants have a life, plants have a spirit, and you have to be in touch with that spirit, and you have to, you know, greet the plant in certain kinds of ways to talk to it in order for you to gain the benefit and the plant to gift you. You know, it's essence, and that essence, you know, supports your life and that you have the responsibility to support the life of those plants. So it's that mutual reciprocal kind of philosophy that is taught to you at a very, very early age. And so this was I think one of the most important things that really got me understanding that there is that kind of relational responsibility that needs to be carried not only with plants, but with everything around you, everything that gives you life or gives human life. And that is a part of the contract, if you will, you know, between humans and other living things. Yeah. And that hierarchy and the power you were talking about before is the opposite of that. So with plants, and of course, you know, if you're farmer, you have animals. So I had a lot of animals. I had, I think I had one time about almost a dozen dogs, seven or eight cats, you know, and lots of, lots of farm animals and goats, chickens, and those kinds of things. So there's that other part of that relationality, you know, first relationship to plants, but relationships to animals as well and that empathy and that interconnection that you have, that we have with our pets and also that we should have with the animals that give us life. So those were things and then of course, you know, if your farmer, the water then becomes very important and the importance of getting the water to your field. And ensuring that each plant, you know, it gets the kind of water it needs, how much water it needs. And so, you know, there's hydraulics that comes into play in terms of understanding how to how to deal with that, how to work with that. So they're like old, I hydraulic, like natural, well, yeah, there's natural springs, but you have to build irrigation dishes, you know, to get that water to your fields. And then of course, you have to maintain those, those ditches, you know, and we actually have that in that cycle, you know, that farming cycle, so yeah, so you have, you have kind of the ceremony of dancing, you know, those different stages, but there's also a practical aspect of planting, of harvesting, of cleaning, cleaning the ditches that then feed the field that you've planted your seed in. And even the seeds, you know, as symbolic representations of a life to begin, you know. So we have ceremony, seeds ceremony, you know, of course, all of those things, you know, of course, you know, different tribes have different ways of doing exactly the same thing, but in their place and in terms of their, the place in which you live. So in some cases, it's about fish and other cases, it's about hunting, you know, we also hunting cycles, you know, that take on after, after plants are harvested, then you move into that hunting cycle and relationship to animals. So, for me, you know, the first book I wrote was called "Look to the Mountain and Ecology of Indigenous Education," by that time I had gone through, you know, high school and high school science, which I found fairly easy, you know, but I always, in the back of my mind, you know, realized that they weren't, they weren't including anything indigenous in that, that story of science, you know, and, and so I realized that, you know, that was a part that was missing. And at first I said, "Well, it's missing, but then after a while I began to question, well, why is it missing, what is the, so that got me interested in undergraduate school in sociology, which looks at, you know, social psychology, social interaction, looks at a lot of the kinds of issues of racism, of, of, of the nature of culture, all of those psychology, social psychologies that we deal with, that sort of obstruct, you know, so, you begin to find the reason why there's only one part of a story and, and the other part of it is excluded. And so I did, I did a degree in biology, I had a small college called, a, a, a, a, a, a, New Mexico Highlands University, which was really just over the mountain range from where I lived, which was close enough to home, so I could always go back in home, you know, when I needed to or wanted to, which I did a lot. And I turned down a lot of offers at East Coast schools and West Coast schools, you know, because I was doing well in school, so I had, I had scholarships and I chose the one that was probably the least likely for most people, but it was the most, most, um, amendable for me. Of course. And plus a lot of my buddies were going there. That's happening. Of course. So I ended up going and I had a pretty good time at a very small college and learned as much, because I figured if you have a good library. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like and that's exactly what growth therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works covered by insurance. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as $0 per therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com/acast. So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away the perfect higher, Skills First Hiring helps you see town others miss, like more than 70 million stars, skilled through alternative routes. Let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage, because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful higher, higher skills for First, learn why at tetherpapercealing.org, brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the At Council. You know, you can compensate for most bad teaching that you might receive. But I also had good professors, you know. So when I graduated, my first position was as a science teacher. I had a degree in biology and sociology but I also got a minor in education. And I got that as insurance, not really thinking, well, I'm going to be, you know, a teacher. I wanted to be a field biologist, but I said, well, you know, I'll try it out. And so I was asked, and I think the principal and vice principal of a school that was in the town, the town is Las Vegas, New Mexico, they were probably looking for fresh meat, you know, to accommodate their students, you know. And so I didn't realize, but this, this, the, I was recruited to teach high school biology to ninth graders at at this school and that was in the town. And I hadn't realized that the students had been through two teachers before me. Oh, no. You know, that the principles, I was wondering why I was being interviewed by the principal and the vice principal, you know, of the school. And being asked the questions, you know, you know, do you think you can, do you think you could handle this? And once I got in there, I realized, 180 students, ninth graders, the books were in shambles, you know, the classroom had very little of no equipment. And on, I had to teach, you know, the exceptions of, and how long were you there for? And while it was in December, see, they had the students. So in the middle of the school year? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So that was trial by fire in education, you know, because I had to really pull on my, not all of my, you know, knowledge, you know, and I have to say that very little of that was covered in the education classes I took, you know, it was, actually, it wasn't even mentioned, you know, but that was the reality of school. So, but the, the students were there were actually ranch kids, the largely ranch kids and of course, the town kids, but they had, there was still a standing tradition of, of ranching and forming and old traditions of, of how to use plants and food for medicine and for survival. So, there was a knowledge base that I connected to, and I knew about. So I used that as the foundation to begin to engage the students in learning about biology. And it was very successful, I began to, because I didn't have textbooks. I really, that were torn pages and, you know, different kinds of things. So that was the start of one of the aha experiences that I had in education was that, that whole notion of relevancy and the whole notion that if you teach science in a way that engages students, not from a textbook, but from their own lived experience, lived life experience and you build that and you begin to engage them in learning about plants and animals in their history and you begin to, to engage them by taking them out and having them experience you know, through, through, and this is where my art came in, because I, you know, would have them do illustrated journals of the plants that they were, so like to pick the plants and make plant plants to the presses. And then learn about the histories of the uses of those plants in their communities. As it turns out, the kids knew a lot already. It was really just a matter of helping them pull that knowledge forward, for them to realize it. Embellishing it, yeah, and then also the same, but this is science, you know, the relationship to animals, relationship to plants, turns it to science, the knowledge of science, knowledge of practical knowledge of science. So I was then offered a job at the, how much was I paid? I was paid in those days, that was like, the whole year salary was $7,000, $7,500 for the whole year. So I was there for half a year, so I got half of that, and that was the going salary. So it was about $3,500, $3,600, and then I had done my student teaching at the Institute of American Arts, the semester before. And there I was just observing classes, you know, just having fun, I was in the arts school. So I was, you know, and it was good. And so they asked me back, they asked me to come back and teach at the Institute of American Indian Arts, and there is where I was given the leeway, which is really rare to actually create curriculum that integrated science with art, with the cultural perspectives of the students that were attending the Institute at that time, which really tribes from all over, you know, urban native people, you know, from even Los Angeles, Denver, the Albuqueries also at Urban Native Center and Minneapolis, but also students that were coming directly off the res, also students coming from here in Canada. And so I had kind of the smolgish board of originating in the form of students. And they had revolted against the prior teacher and the prior way that science was being taught, because it was the old standard BIA, militaristic type of discipline, you know, stuff. And they just, and they were art students, and why did they have to have art in any way. And a lot of them said, "There's no science in art." And I said, "Well, I beg to differ, and let me show you where to show them." Well, that's where I got a chance to develop the whole culturally responsive curriculum and science, you know, like in the specifics. 1974. Well, you know, I started with what I did with the students at the Las Vegas School. Yeah, that. I started with getting a sense of where they were from, their communities, what their communities did, how they lived in their communities. And so they had to actually write a story, kind of a self-biography of their experiences in their communities, especially as they relates to plants and to animals and to knowledge about plants and animals. In some cases, the urban students didn't have that much practical knowledge, direct knowledge, but their families had told them stories, you know, their tribal traditions, which they had some connection with, also, you know, gave them indication. So they had to do a kind of a self-portrait of themselves, you know. And then from that, I began to actually act okay, so I can use, for these students, I can use these examples, I can use that example. But I started with plants, because that's what I knew most about, the plant, plant ecology. And everyone can relate to that. And so I started with traditional uses of plants for food and medicine, so that was my first unit. And I drew from, what was available in terms of research, at that time, about native uses of plants for food and medicine. And back in, starting in the 1880s and extending all the way to the 1920s, the Bureau of American Ethnology, which was at that time situated in the Smithsonian Institute, had sent out all kinds of scientists, biologists, anthropologists, archaeologists, ethnologists, botanists, you know, all the sciences basically, they had sent them out into Indian country, in the United States, to gather all of the, what they called, ethno science knowledge of the tribes at that time, because, you know, the notion was that in one generation, the native people would be gone, you know, lose that knowledge, that understanding, that pressure back to you. So that was also to employ government scientists, you know, it was the economic thing of employing scientists, you know, to do research in native communities. But they, you know, they brought back reports, it's called the Bureau of American Ethnology. reports, and on native uses of plants and food and medicine from different tribes, the uses of the different forms of agriculture and the different astronomy that native people had and that formed the record that I could draw from at least a whole compiled record of native science, but I caught, you know, in those days it was called ethno science because it was not considered a science, it was a part of anthropologists. The other science. Yeah, so that along with my own knowledge, you know, I was able to put together a very comprehensive native plants, food and medicine unit and introduced it, you know, and the students just tell this is great. And of course, they're painting, they're drawing, they're sculpting those plants. Next one I did was animals using again the same strategy. So again, and the stories about plants, the stories about animals that tribes have, were also incorporated in some way into these reports, these ethnology reports. Then I started to do research in terms of, you know, native philosophies, you know, native communities, native astronomy, which I was interested in, and in terms of students which are just crazy about that too. And so within a year I was able to create seven distinct units on native science. And it was really something that really engaged the students and even surprising me, you know, because I think even then there was a thirst for that kind of knowledge and you didn't get it in school or even in university at that time. And if you were going to find it, you're going to have to do the research to actually uncover it, like this mirror thing in a few, a mirror of ethnology report. And then I asked them, okay, so now you've got to research your own people's traditions in these areas, like how did they use plants for food and medicine, how did they interact with animals and hunting, how did they do fishing, what were the technologies that they were using to do all of this, you know, what were the traditions that surrounded the use of this, the context. And so what happens is that that knowledge begins to undulate and it begins to build. And I said to myself, well, you know, this is a holistic way of teaching. So I began to study more holistic forms of education, see how they were doing things. And then I began to look at neither philosophy of education, how do people come to know things in a tribe, what are the traditions, what are the ways that that's done. And then that led to really devising a kind of curriculum mandala, where, you know, the center is the self and the community. And then they expand to include knowledge about plants, knowledge about animals, knowledge about the place you live, knowledge about the cosmos. And so the realization there is that traditional forms of education are filled with science. And it's really about orienting whomever you are, and wherever you are, to the world around you, to the natural world that gives you life and that sustains you through time and through generations. So, you know, the directions in North of Southeast, the west, the above, the center, and below become a kind of structure. And in academic terms, they call this an epistemological structure that organizes what he's being learned and when it's being learned and how and why it's important to learn that thing in that place, or about those things in those places. So, what's happening there is as I'm developing this, I'm developing a sense for curriculum, how to actually design curriculum, and how to design an indigenous curriculum that incorporates indigenous values and perspectives and understandings. So, of course, this is taken, you know, from 1974 to 1979, I had a high school class and all the students at IA had to take my class, you know. So. Well, you had the mandatory for everybody had to take it. Yeah, because they had to pass their science credit. Yeah. And so, I was brought in to actually design that credit in a way that they could pass, you know, so in each of those scenarios, I was always teaching the basic science principles associated with, you know, those different aspects, but I was doing much more and the students were learning much more. Yeah. And because they were using their art and they were using their creative possibilities and they were getting excited about learning about their own cultural histories. Oh. It became very relational, and it became. Yeah. Yeah. And it was hard, but it was also easy at the same time, simultaneously, it was easy now to engage them because they were already engaged. And they just wanted to say, "How can we do this?" Or, "What do we do this? How can we represent this?" Yeah. So, that led then to IA transition from a high school program to a college program, two-year college program, and so I just took the courses that were units in high school and transformed them into district courses, and I called the Ethno Science Curriculum. And so that started in 1980 to, well, actually that whole decade into the '90s. And of course, the students, now that we're older, they're not in high school, they're not high school students, they're in college students, and we had the average age was probably about 28. So we had older mature students, you know, in that college program, and their life experience and their issues and kinds of things. So that really augmented, and most of them, if not all of them, had never been introduced to this kind of curriculum in school. Even now a lot of people have long, right? Yeah. After all of these years. So, that's kind of the big story, you know, where I get into all of these different kinds of things. And I really didn't, I wish I had, recorded everything that we had done, but we had so much fun doing it. And the only recordings and pictures that I have of the students doing this work is when the students themselves, the photography students, because we also had a photography and videography. They were the ones in class, and they were the ones that were doing the recording. Yeah. And so it's. Have you talked to any of the students recently? Oh. Because that'd be cool. It's talked to your old students. Oh, I mean, most of the students that I meet, which happens during our Indian market in Sanfay, were. I need to go to that. Where a lot of the students, you know, are. Well, they become nationally known Native artists, you know, so they can. They're only much more than a poor teacher, a poor professor, who would make it a year. They make it in one show, you know, but, yeah, so I interact with them there. And they remember these courses. Sure. These are the courses they remember, and the courses they had with them were going up. The difference also was that I never had more than 13 students in a class, and the reason for that was that I could take them in our 13-seat van. So we could actually drive, you know, all around the countryside, come to places like this, look for flats, you know, explore new drawings. So I really didn't write about any of this until, you know, I was getting into my, you know, having to do something for my PhD, and I said, well, I'll do what I know, which is really the story of creation of a Native science curriculum. And it was so new, when we first started in 1974, the students were really excited about what we were doing, doing things with the plants and things with animal stories. things like that. And the Bureau of Indian Affairs had a conference in Albuquerque in 1975. And so I loaded my students up in the van. Albuquerque is about 60 miles south of Santa Fe. And we get there and we find the room where we're supposed to present. And maybe it was advertising and maybe it was just, and we called the session, Indian Biology. Absolutely no one came to our presentation. No one. Nobody. So we ended up having pizza and laughing and talking to ourselves. Which is also fun. But what that showed me was that this concept of Native Sonnance and Native, Native, what we call Native Biology. It was so new that no one in at least in the Bureau of Indian Affairs educational sphere, you knew what it was, you know, or I wonder what they thought it was. I don't know. No one came. No one could have been the time too. They put us like really at the very last of the conference, you know. And so a lot of people had gone home and stuff. But it was very, and it took for a long time, I would ask myself, am I the only one doing this? Well, the only one interested in this. I knew my students were, I mean, they were just wanting to take the courses, but not, it was not a part of the narrative I visualized it. Yeah, they, who are the original, like your one, DOG, Indigenous scientists, you know, there's like Vindaloria, around the same time. Right. Linda, 2P wife, Swiss. Yeah, plus. So, so why I guess what that shows is it takes time for an idea to take hold. And so here, you know, Segway, for 40 plus years, since that time, and now Indigenous science is a conference. Now we're in Indigenous science conference here, right. Which is amazing. So, so yeah, it's a very interesting kind of dream. But, um, so I, I became passionate about based on the experience I had teaching and working with the students about going deeper, standing more, and, uh, and particularly focusing on native science philosophy, as, as kind of the binder from which you can teach just about anything from a native perspective. Yeah. Yeah. In science. And, and you can actually accommodate almost any Western science discipline with, with a native content. So, so I think we're at that stage of really beginning to, understand how we can be creative in terms of, um, of how we can begin to incorporate, you know, native science into the teaching of Western science, and even going beyond that, saying native science as, as the foundation. Yeah. From which, to which we attach Western science. Yeah. The origin. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's a huge, um, and maybe 40 years is not that long, you know, as far as the idea itself. And now it's, it's become prolific, I guess you might say, and it's a part of many conferences, many discussions. And of course, also the obstacles and the issues. Become the part of that as well. Yeah. Yeah. One of, one of the things that's, when I was, when I was reading native science, and it, one of the things that really struck me was the sun daggers. Yeah. How cool that is in thinking about, how old are those? Uh, my estimate, the actual, I'm going to say, at least 1,500 years, right, when they were, they were constructed, at least 1,500 years. Yeah. And you can't go to them anymore, Ken. Uh, well, the, the, the, the science itself, we now require a special, a special, a permit. And that's because when, um, and she was a photographer, uh, she was, uh, assigned to Chaco Canyon, which is a national park, to, uh, to record petroglyphs. Then there are many petroglyphs in the park, many petroglyphs. And so, so she happened to be, at about 11, 8, 30 or so, she happened to be on this but where, where there were, she knew there were some petroglyphs and she'd be in to notice a strange thing happening as the sun was moving in the sky, getting closer to noon. And there were these three stones and behind those three stones were these spirals. And, um, she began to see, uh, a dagger of light start to form as the sun was moving across, she was getting closer to high noon. The dagger was getting longer and longer and longer and cutting through the center of that spiral. And of course, and this, by accident, she's not, she's not a, she was not a native person, she was, she was a photographer but creative and observant. Okay. So she says, what is, what is this going on? So she filmed it, she filmed the whole thing. And, um, and then she shows it to the park people and saying, well, what is that, you know, then she calls an anthropologist and archaeologist. The park people didn't know what it was. Well, they knew the, where the site was and they knew that, but they didn't know what was going on with the light and the dagger. They had, they had probably not seen her, they made the business counter with that. So she's, uh, Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds. At growtherapy.com/acast. So by stopping at the education section of a resume, you might throw away the perfect tire. Skills First Hiring helps you see talent others miss, like more than 70 million stars, skilled through alternative routes. Let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage, because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful hire. Hire skills first. Brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council. She says, "Well, I've got to know more about this." So she starts contacting native people and talking, and she has photographs and video of this swan ominer. And a lot of the archaeo astronomers at that time said, "No, native people aren't capable of doing that. They don't have that. How is this happening? So. " Because it measures the, if you want to explain what it. It measures the exact time of summer solstice at high noon on the register, you know, of the spiral. So there's these spirals. And then there's a smaller spiral, you know, to the left of it. So the spiral is the sundagger cuts through the center of the spiral during high noon at summer solstice. And during some winter solstice, two daggers bracket the spiral. And marked the exact time of winter solstice. And of course anthropologists, because they hadn't ever seen it, they hadn't discovered it. Archaeologists, archaeo astronomers, this can't be. There's no place in the world where this happens. But she, and then she presents her findings to this international archaeostronomy society in England and they just blow her off. They say, "This can't happen. You've doctored your photo." And also because she's a woman and she's a scientist. She's not a scientist. And then she's an artist in the sense of being a photographer. How can this photographer tell us? This is something. But native people knew about it. I'm sure there's more around. Oh, there are. There are around. So she then went to school. She begins to do right up. She learns how to be a scientist. And she gets her PhD. And then goes back and defends that that original finding. And so she's now the head of the Solstice Project. So Solstice Project, if you look to the Solstice Project, you'll see all the multiple kinds of things that and her name is Anastasia Fure, that she's been able to accomplish from a photographer artist to. That stumbled across something. That was significant. And now that's her. And now, when they realized this is a watershed moment in archaeostronomy so that they said, "Well, no ancient civilizations were capable of doing that." All of a sudden they started to find similar kinds of mechanisms all over the world. Ancient sites where the sun and the summer solstice and and the winter solstice were being recorded over marked in a variety of different consequences. The other thing that's unique about the Sandagger is that it also marks the 18 and a half year cycle of the moon. Okay, I'm curious about this because I don't understand that. Well, you know, the moon is. it jumps around. It moves in horizon. If you're taking a look at the horizon, let's say the moon rise. It takes 18 and a half years of time to move in its cycle. And so in the little spiral. So it rises in a different place in the horizon during different times of the year and you mark it against the horizon. So I'm looking at this horizon here in front of me and imagining the moon. So the moon rises gradually in different places, different parts of that on that horizon. And then it gets to a maximum point. And then its dance is actually dances there, what we call dancing for about four days. And then it moves again back to its minimum cycle. And that's 18 and a half years. It takes 18 and a half years to complete that cycle. And how does how do the sun digger show minimum to minimum maximum to maximum? Wow. And how is that showing on the sun daggers? That's shown by a dagger of moonlight. Full moon. Stop. Following the sun in the same position. The full moon. Just like the sun. So there's a blue dagger and a sun dagger. It creates a. a dagger of light. But it's not a dagger. It's not so much the dagger like the sun creates. It's actually a shadow. So there's a there's a light part to the shadow. And then there's a dark part in the shadow. But that shadow moves across the spiral. So the best way to do it is actually to access the solstice project. And they have the schematics of how the system so that people can, you know, image it. Because it's hard to image if if you're not there and you're not seeing it, you're not used to to seeing how how the sun moves or how the moon moves across the horizon. And of course this is time lapse photography so you can you can actually see it. But you know if you were just waiting for you, you actually have to wait for it. Observe very carefully how that that sun or how that moon is moving across the horizon. Okay. So this and this was being done by all tribes in some shape or form. I mean so the what happened at Chaka was a watershed moment. So they find this of course at Cahokia. It's in in every complex in in Mexico, you know, in the in Tio Tio Con in in in Chichen Itza in in and then of course it extends down into into South America into Machu Picchu. So all of those sites are situated in some kind of real and again relationship to the sun of the moon. And in the case of the sun dagger, both the sun and the wrong. So sometimes it's just the sun and sometimes it's the moon and other times it's Venus, which was another it was was another star that the native people tracked extensively. Yeah gosh. So again you know, so engaging native students, especially when you're talking about you know complex subjects like astronomy and and then you get into quantum physics and then get into all those kinds of little theoretical models and it becomes a real real interesting, you know journey. And then engage it engages everybody whether you're a science person or not. I mean just the recent you know just look at how the recent eclipse how it engage people just throughout North America. Just these people just enthralled about it. Yeah. So yeah, so I think I think what what really has to happen is really that. And and I think the Western is Western science realize is that it's breaking it's breaking out of its usual box, you know, but it's not again offering that opportunity to other cultural traditions. It's exploring them but very much the way to explore native culture in Chalko Canyon. You know, it's it's through a very Western scientific lens. It does include the context, which is yes, it's important as the event if not more important. The context is that relational mutual reciprocal philosophy, but guides. It's the thought. It's the thought behind structures. And I think that comes back to that biofilia biofilia that you know in the beginning. And that reconnection with that biofilia. Yes. That love and that connection for the land. Yeah. And for living things because it's really a realization that and the cosmos. Yeah, that we are we are part of a living very dynamic living world. And cosmos. Yeah. That's constantly changing. One more question that I think there's because we were saying the there's a lot more openness like you said to indigenous or native science. Those boundaries are being broken. And I also see a lot of tokenism that's happening within indigenous science. Yes, within curriculum. Yes. Methodologies. Yeah. And you know, a big part of what you talk about in many indigenous science to talk about is that the importance of bringing in spirit. Yeah. In two science. And I think that's that's the thing that so many people have. How what is a way that is an actionable way that spirit can be brought into science? Well, I think in most native people would agree that spirit is energy. It would be what scientists call energy. And of course, we'd live in an energetic world that surrounds us. And I think it has to do with how you conceptualize that energy. So as native people would call it spirit and the idea that everything has energy, everything, manifest energy. Everything is in the process of formation of energy born. And that that energy ultimately is a kind of a light. And actually the Hindu, for example, refer to this living energy as a light and different kinds of qualities of light. And that light then manifests into in at various levels into our our experience realities. It turns into matter. So it's yeah, so that's the quantum. Yeah. And so native people have always talked about light, you know, and the notion of light as being and also what's behind the light. There's thought. And that's another kind of energy. But it's also light. So in Pablo stories, we have We have the entity that is called thought woman, thought woman. And the parallel to that in Navajo philosophy, for example, is changing woman. But the idea that the world is manifested or is created, first with the thought. And the thought is energy, and that energy then turns into variations and forms of light, which is the quantum quality. And then that manifests into everything that we see around us, you know. And that we are also part of that, and we originate that and we go back to that. And that connects into the language and that, everything has that cycle. And so this is what makes the symbolically, what makes the Chaco Canyon dagger, very symbolic. Because it is using light as the manifestation of this, this quality, that we are looking at, you know, life, in its purist form is in that light, the light of the sun in this case. But it is really light of all the stars and cosmic, and it generates that. So this is why you, and I think my good friend and colleague Leroy Little Bear, you know, has changed. We forgot to talk about Leroy Little Bear, and we are talking about the OGs. Yes, yes. So Leroy. So Leroy has really, you know, he's worked with Blackfoot Physics, and he's really delved into the many of these ideas about light and about the quantum and how Native people understood this, a language that ritualized it, ceremonialized it, and really understood it as a natural part of, you know, life, it was just the way things are, you know, and so it was, so he's bringing to light, too light, the nature of, you know, that kind of physics, that kind of way of native way of looking at things. And that allows for that connection, you say, you know, or the validity to, yeah, of spirit and energy and quantum, right? So you know, one of the key elements of native philosophy is balance and maintaining that balance, and if that balance is lost, finding ways to restore it. And so that idea of balance, along with the relationality, and interdependence, you know, become kind of the hallmarks of indigenous worldviews, wherever you find them. And for the Western, it's really that material, what the actual product, the actual, this logic is either or, it's not relation. The end point. Yeah. And it's, and it's, and it's, and it's focuses on the reproducing, reproducing that element in some shape or form. It's very convenient for a, economic, a materialistic, capitalistic, economic system. Ahem, and bud, if that's, that's, I think, ultimately, the big, big conflict. It's an oil and water conflict, you know. And so the two worldviews have been consistently at odds with each other. But now what we're doing and attempting to do is try to find ways for it to begin to come together. To connect, to balance. And then you and something out of that, what emerges out of that is a new kind of something. Okay. And you, I would call it a new kind of science. Yeah. And like what you said yesterday about how this understanding and this relational way of knowing science, indigenous science, it's not just for indigenous people. Yeah. It's for everyone that should be understood by it. It's inclusive of everything. Every living thing, everything in the world. Yeah, it's not just a, you know, we have, as indigenous people, certain ways of describing it and, you know, relating to the experience of it. But it's actually all of human, and all of life experience, you know, that comes into this. And that really is the study, you know, you're asking me what is science, the science is the study of life, and that life principle, the life that, and I may say, everything. And we're dealing with the imbalance of that through climate, through what we call climate change. But climate change that we ourselves have, have instigated. And so you get back to the question of balance, and how do you restore balance into that system? But everything begins with thought. So what is the thought behind what we are experiencing today in modern life, and what is the thought behind indigenous thinking and process, and so change the thought, change the mind, change the consciousness and then change the reality. And that's the sequence, you know, that we have to do once again. And what's, what science is that, we don't teach about this, you know, really, I mean, you may get into this and you get a, you know, a high level course in theoretical physics, or, you know, high levels of ecological philosophy and kinds of things. But most people are not introduced to any of this. For him. You know, and I think it's a kind of knowledge that has to be shared and become extensive, because in a lot of ways, all of our ancestors practiced this in a direct way, you know, there was a thought behind, there was a, and what I call mindfulness, a mindfulness about what they did. And mindfulness is nothing more than paying deep and close attention to something, and to understanding it in this closer as much as you can, and that's mindfulness. So mindfulness is not new to native people. I mean, you know, a place like, as I said, of Chakokanian, of Kahokia, or Machu Picchu, any of those places cannot, would not have existed without the understanding of the thought behind it. You have to understand the thought behind that. So the focus, the Western focus of science is on the actual material, you know, materiality of Chakokanian, or Machu Picchu. My interest is the thought that gave rise to that, and to multiple other things, you know. But I think we have to capture something of the essence of that thought in Western science, you know, to begin to understand the indigenous view of something. And I think that comes down to how we educate, what we educate for. And creativity in our thinking, and our willingness to face the obstacles that have come into the way of that. The mindlessness, a lot of Western economics and a lot of the Western world, you really think about, let's say, you were an alien coming from a different planet. There is a film series called The Alien. We should, you should see it, it's really interesting. And the alien is acting like a, you know, he's an observer, he's come to comfort the rest and take it over. But it's very, very interesting, I'm very happy about the writers are very creative in telling kind of the modern story through this sitcom, The Alien. It's on Netflix, Netflix, yeah. So that's really the dilemma we're in, and, you know, climate change is going to happen. We've had climate changes before, maybe not to this extent, but it's a human-caused phenomena. We have to learn how to adapt to it. The talk is not mitigating it anymore, it's actually adapting to it. Native people are extremely good at adaptation, if we put our creative minds to it. And I think in many ways we are adapting, you know, as time goes by. And I think that, you know, as we move forward, we have to really concentrate on how we educate for this adaptation, drawing from our own histories, but moving forward with our own creative potential and possibilities. And Western science can be very productive for Native people if we use it with our own sense of thought in ways that that really are our life supporting as our traditions have always manifested, you know? So that's the new science, you know? And I think it's evolving as we speak, but it's certainly going to take the participation of Native people. And everyone. And just by students, we're extremely resistant against learning Western science, learning about Native science became their forte. And I think we have to encourage that, you know, to happen in a much wider level, not only among our own indigenous peoples, but among non-indigenous people as well. And I think that's beginning to happen, this beginning to happen. Yeah. So that's my hope for the future. It's my hope too. Yeah. Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. I cannot tell you how this is best day on the land. I mean, your conversation with you, hearing the birds in the background. So I'm so grateful. So thank you so much for your time and your stories and your knowledge today. You're certainly welcome. Thank you again. Yeah. As we say, be with life. Yeah. Be with life. It's a very simple concept, you know. And just be with life. And tell me me again. Yes. Skills First Hiring helps you see talent others miss, like more than 70 million stars, skilled through alternative roots. 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