Off the Record With Shawn Johnson and Andrew East

[MUSIC] >> I have this problem with a lot of our harder arguments that we can't get past. Do I fall back to what I know or the athlete side that's obsessive where I'm like, no, I'm fixing this. >> All through our careers, we've had a coach. They look at us and they say, this is not good enough, this needs improved, this needs change. >> The word that keeps popping in my head is honesty, do you tell the truth? Everything just changed in this room when you said that. [MUSIC] >> What up, welcome to Off the Record with John and guests. Dude, this episode kind of maybe transformed the show. I have my good friends, Sean Johnson, the Olympic medalist. She won the Navy SEAL show. She won Dancing with the Stars, and her husband who's a great friend of mine, Andrew East, former NFL player, who I think should have been the other winner in the Navy SEAL show, but we'll leave that to the internet. But here's the thing, this started out as an interview and it ended up a couples coaching session. They brought a lot of heaviness from their own marriage and they were super vulnerable, super open. If you want to see more of this, we've been toying with having actual live couples come in and to a new studio and where I sit down with them for an hour and we go through their challenges. If you want to see more of that, right into the show, click the link in the show notes, or just leave comments underneath this episode. Check it out, me and my friends, Sean and Andrew. [MUSIC] >> I want to start with a conversation I heard you guys have it on your show and it was fantastic. There's this research with the Gottman's that there's two types of problems. There's solvable and there's perpetual in a marriage. I remember hearing that and being like, oh, this is awesome, this is fantastic. That was really disheartened when they were like, perpetual problems are 69 to 70% of all problems, meaning in your marriage, this thing that y'all are fighting about will be solved never. So trying to solve this is not the place to go. >> I know exactly which episode you listened to. >> Well, I listened to the one after that. I'm interested because the way y'all are dancing around it was like, oh, this is still there, I love it. >> It will forever be there. >> So talk to me about perpetual insolvable problems in the East Household and maybe an example of a perpetual problem. >> Great. >> I have a bunch in my house. >> Here's what I love about marriage. >> I feel like marriage such as such a jute. >> To quote John Mellon camp, marriage sometimes can hurt so good. >> We have had many confrontations, many discussions where something gets brought to light and you're like, okay, well, how are we going to work through this? And I have one perspective and you have another. And delightfully, we have compromised much in our marriage. And I used to have dreadlocks. I used to wear a Mexican poncho, have one outfit in my closet. I've come a long way. >> I have an outfit on and shoes. >> You've got to break. >> He says that. >> Bargotsie John Cris is kicking right now, man. >> He says all that as you're getting your MBA from Vanderbilt. >> Yeah. >> But you have refined me in amazing ways because we've compromised. But there have been several things where for our 10 years of marriage and 13 years of knowing each other, they have been left unresolved. And it's funny because I look at some of these issues and I'll bring up a specific here shortly. And I think I feel like this is a great quality about myself. And I actually feel like this is something that Sean fell in love with in the early days. And now it has been such a cause of friction. And specifically for us, go ahead, go ahead. >> No, no, I would say we have done a very good job. We've worked really, really hard. I would say 99.9% of our problems are solvable. >> Really? >> No. 99% are according to Dr. John Deloney. >> Yeah. >> I was arguing, we're doing a pretty good job. We're both pretty good at like brushing things off and be like, I'm so sorry, you know. I can see both sides of it, I can see everything. We've gotten good at that. >> You're good at that? Okay. >> Excuse me. >> I have thought you'd be pretty good at hanging on to things, but that's totally, you're not my wife. So, I'll let you speak to that. >> Right. Great. But there are a couple of things where- >> Okay, but how much of that is, how much of that is both of y'all are performed like, former professional athletes? There's a part of, I have a job to do and I have to be able to shed like extraneous things. I can't solve this problem. I can't solve this. I can't solve this. I can control this. How much of that training comes into like- >> A lot of it. >> I can't change this. I'm going to go. Does that make sense? >> Yes. I feel like, oh my gosh. I'm going to grab it home myself and feel like I craze for a second. I have this problem with exactly what you just asked, with a lot of our harder arguments that we can't get past, because I find myself in a crossroads of, do I fall back to what I know, which is that elite athlete mentality of- to a certain extent, like, can't change it, can't deal with it, compartmentalize, don't need you, don't- >> I'm going to go do it. It's fine. >> Oh. >> Or the athlete side that's obsessive where I'm like, no, I'm fixing this. We will fix this because it's a problem and we're going to get, like, I have to try to balance those scales so much and I never know which way to go. Neither are probably the best because they're both very bullhead-ish, but yeah, it's- I don't know. It's amazing hearing her say that and all that's going in her head and I'm just sitting there thinking, I want to watch college football. >> Yeah. I just want to have a good time. Big. We're trying to work through some stuff. It's good. It's honestly, but it's so good. But I do think- I do think as athletes, we have benefited from a lot of uncomfortable, constructive criticism and all through our careers, we've had a coach who is in intimately known us and it's like they look at us and they say, "This is not good enough. This needs improved. This needs change." And I do think we've benefited from being able to absorb that without having a visceral or immediate reaction of, "No, that's not right. You're wrong. I'm doing it right." You know, it's like we kind of do, I think, have a buffer from that reaction, which has been really good. When we give feedback to each other, it's usually met kindly. And we also have this understanding that if I'm the one giving feedback, it is a responsibility on my part to make sure that that is as true and accurate as possible. Because if I'm coming in with selfish motives of, "I want to watch college football Saturday, so Sean, can you do all the kid stuff, can you do all the meal stuff, can you do all the house stuff, can you do all the work stuff?" If I'm trying to angle my feedback to serve my own desires as opposed to the teams, that's not going to work out well, and that's an irresponsible use of the feedback. So I think both on the giving and receiving side, we've benefited from that. But there has been a topic that has been left unresolved that I do feel like is, I've had a new perspective on recently. And it is the fact that I, frankly, as you know from this morning, am not always punctual. I got up, brother. I value punctuality. I like being on time. I strive to be on time. I work for it. And I look at the day ahead and I'm like, "Okay, how can we make sure all this stuff happens?" But I also value quality time. And if this podcast goes for seven hours instead of three, because it needs to, because, you know, you're in tears or she's in tears and, "Hey, let's just let this simmer a little longer." And the realization that has continued to surface is Sean with her, I would say, militant like discipline, which is a beautiful superpower of hers. She has no forgiveness for, "We're running late. We're running late." And I'm like, "I have no forgiveness for you're being rude because we need to finish this conversation because this deserves it, this quality time moment." And so this realization. I'm pointing to my producer. Because yes. Yes. So there's some major aspects of this. Love me for this. Love me for this episode, because this is how this has resolved so far. It was super helpful for me to explicitly put on the table the fact that Sean, you value and commit more to the punctuality of things than to the quality time of things. And I want you to know that I prioritize and value the quality time of things more than the punctuality. And I am sorry, it is a trade off, there is a cost to each of ours. But here's what it is. And I guess it's a perpetual problem because I don't really want to budge on my thing. And I know she doesn't want to budge on hers, they're both good. So we're a team. And you have the punctuality side, I have the quality time, and let's dance on this, baby. Okay. I'm so excited. So we have not approached this well. We have not figured out the solvable solution to this because yes, we both come from I come from very militant background, you come from very flexible background. I agree with 100% of what he just said. - Okay. - The little tiny details in here that we're missing are as we go down this route of I don't like being late, I like having an expectation. I like being able to feel like there's a controllable variable where I'm like, when are you gonna be home? Is it at one or is it at five? The compromise that I have tried to pitch is if you are having the most wonderful intimate conversation that is not lasting an hour, but it's lasting seven, could you pause at some point and send a little text? - Wait, hold on, real quick. - No. - Oh, did I just interrupt the whole vibe? (laughing) - At some point, and can you text and say, I'm not gonna make it home by one, it'll be six to which we have found out that that is a very not okay solution and one that we can't do. In that-- - We're using such a hard we on that. (laughing) It has led to some unfortunate situation where maybe I was told, let's meet at this coffee shop at noon and I will be sitting there for a very long period of time and I will be calling with no answer and I'll be texting with no answer. And at some point, I will just have to leave. - Yes, I apologize. - Thank you. - Do you forgive me for when I've heard your name? - Yes. - And so, we have gone in this circle for 13 years. - I wish I wish y'all could feel the room. Right, it's so good, it's so good. It's so good. - We have gone in this circle. - No, this is so good. - For 13 years. And I don't think this is a right solution but most recently, the podcast, what had happened was we talk a lot about reps. How, if we're approaching it the same exact way every time and it's not working, let's try something new. So I tried something new. And I said, how about we both operate with our separate schedules? I will be militant. I will arrive by myself on time and you can arrive at your leisure. And that was also met with, well, we're a team. And I'm like, well, we're not on this. - So that's actually the thing to change my house. - Yeah. - I've said, well, I'll tell you how it changed in my house but it got to the thing beneath that thing. That makes sense. - I have wanted to call you about this so many times. So I'm glad we're talking about it. - Here's what happened in my house is number one. It was opening for me to hear, oh, if I roll in nine minutes late, if I roll in 15, 30 minutes late, that is felt as this guy thinks his time is more valuable than mine, as a measure of disrespect. That was the shock to be like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, I cried, I never want to be disrespectful ever, ever. And it was a shock to her to find out, I'm walking down the hallway and somebody stops us as, hey, I need to tell you about what's going on with my grandma. For me to leave that is the most disrespectful thing in the world. And so for her, she was like, oh gosh, I didn't realize that. And so getting to a place of neither of us are trying to like hurt each other, right? And my thing is not, it's like, I feel this disrespectful. And she's like, this is disrespectful. The thing that changed for me is when she said, when I walk into church late and everybody looks back at me, that makes me feel small and like, that I'm the center of attention and I don't like that. And then as I was like, oh, I don't ever want you to feel that. And so that hasn't always healed my, hasn't fixed me being on time all the time, but the first morning she said, so I'm going to start driving myself. If I'm going to leave at this time, and if you're ready to rock and roll, it's awesome. And the first time she took off without me, they just laughed. And I got, I was so pissed. I was like, and so then I kind of slow played it. And then I got there and I was, I was met with a smile. Like, hey, good morning. And I was like, no, no, no, no, you left me. And, but it was like, no, you, I did exactly what I said was going to do. And then that, that helped me get better at it. Because it wasn't about the time thing. It was about, I don't want my wife to feel that way. But that's the thing that's changed it. But it was the thing beneath, like not like schedules versus this. It was that thing beneath the thing. - Wait, it helped because now you have a system of, hey, she's going to drive herself and you'll be separate or it motivated you to, you want to ride. - So we have a new system. And that is, I'll go, I'll go. And we also have the thing beneath the system, which is, oh, it's not just she wants to be on time because she's a do-gooder. She wants to be on time because she doesn't want people to look at her and feel exposed and feel small and feel like people think that she's disrespecting them. I don't ever want my wife to feel that way, right? So if some guy was like disrespecting her, I'd get between the two of them, right? So in this situation, it feels like the same thing for me. - Well, mine has always been, and I've tried to explain that to him of like, the militant side was drilled into me at such a young age with gymnastics. If I showed up late, it was disrespectful to my team and to my coaches. And therefore, if that ever happened, I was not allowed back. - Yes. - It was such a violating act of like-- - Just wired into you? - Yes, to where we talk about like, one of your favorite things is like humility. How I hate putting myself on a pedestal of any kind. And my worst fear is thinking that I'm positioning myself to be better than in any capacity. And if I show up late, my brain tells me that I'm making myself look like I'm better than everyone. I don't have to adhere to social, you know. - So that you're above the rules? - Yeah. And then the other side of it is exactly what, like your wife was saying, when Andrews locked in on quality time with someone, in my mind, it's like husband and wife is priority, right? - So that was gonna be my question for you, yeah. Like, does it ever get to a point where you have to decide the person in front of me, his feelings, are more important than my wife's feelings? 'Cause that's the, for me, that's where it always distills all the way down to. Who's more important right now? - So for context. - And I wrestle with that. - Sean and I, if we have 10 commitments in a day, for five days a week, we'll do all 10 together. And then maybe one day a week, we'll do nine of the 10 together. We are together all day, every day. And if it wasn't like that, my life would be in shambles. - Why? - Because I would be constantly fumbling this prioritization. And frankly, I don't know if I trust myself that much. And yes, she's my priority. But I am also severely irresponsible in so many ways. In a sense where you're like, man, I don't know. Tactically, like if we're actually giving a real case scenario, I don't know how I would do if that was a more frequent occurrence of am I choosing this or am I choosing my wife? And it's like, I want to choose my wife. But, man, I am so glad that we're together all the time that that's not often a situation. - Well, but the, I think the challenge for you is your reputation in the city is, I can count on that guy. That's like, that's behind closed doors. That's how people talk about you. And so it's not that it's like in shambles. It's not that it's like you have this. Like I would just be, you know what? It's like, no, no, no. Like that is the pervasive. When you bring up Andrews like anytime, anywhere that guy will show up and help you out. Like that's just the thing. And so I don't know, it's balancing, to me, it feels like it's balancing that I will be there. And I want you there. - I have never foundationally thought that you were choosing someone over our marriage. So I want to like-- - So no, my wife never thinks that either. - Yeah. - It's a thing I wrestle with. - But it's, I do believe in those moments, it 100% is prioritized of I, this person in front of me deserves my undivided attention. My wife is there and is never going anywhere. And like our marriage is never going anywhere. Like that's such a constant and a solid belief in our marriage that I don't think it even crosses your mind to say I need to let my wife know. Because things are so rock solid. And it's so important for you to invest into the person in front of you. But-- - And I also know we'll be together the rest of the day. You know what I'm saying? - We will be together for the end of the day. - And the rest of our lives. - But there's just like other sides to it sometimes where can I operate solely like on my own as the kids 100% but there's also like a prioritization as your wife where say it's dinner. I'm making you dinner because like that's a joy I have in serving you and loving you. And if you've told me you're going to come home for dinner and I make a plate and then all of a sudden it's cleared and you get home two hours later and you're like, you didn't make me dinner. Not like you would say that in a, but you feel loved when I do stuff like that. It's like missing bids to each other that all of a sudden become, you feel slighted. And I think what I like is to implement the system is to make sure nobody ever feels slighted. It's such a fascinating topic for me because it's so loaded with multiple different components in the sense that this is how my dad lived life and I'm modeling that and I love the way my dad lived life and so many people were blessed by the way he interacted with them and he would get a phone call and he'd show up to someone's, you know, courthouse thing, he was built houses and so whatever subcontractor and he'd show up and help them with whatever they needed and then someone in prison would call him and he'd be there and all of a sudden he'd hire them and like, so he was everyone's guy. So fluid with this schedule on the one hand and he would wake up like 4 a.m. to go hang out with a friend and then go to Bible study and so it's like, this is what my, the role of my father was and I aspire to be that way in so many ways. It's like when you say I'm dependable, that comes off very much as a compliment, thank you. But also like a burden and obligation when it's like, yeah, I want to be that guy. I hope I am that guy. I have insecurities around being that guy and so like, there's that part of it personally as well and then there's like the, when she says, well, I'll just drive separately to me. Yeah. That hurts. Go back because we talk about, we spend a lot of time trying to figure out our values as a family and togetherness is one thing that like family vacations are we dropping the kids off from school? Are we doing sports? It's all, well, how can we engineer this to be as together as possible? And so if she says, I'm leaving without you, I'm like, soul ripped from my, like, no. How do you navigate the difference between togetherness and enmeshment though? Oh, I don't know. Are we enmeshed? I mean, back to the back of what I would say that or not a clinical term but more could append it. Like, I need you to be okay so that I can be okay. And if you're not okay, then I'm not okay. That means it's your job to be okay because I need to be okay. Oh, dude. We did a lot of counseling around that. We did a 16 week course around our marriage. After we had our third kid, we went to this biblical marriage counseling and it changed our lives and it changed our marriage. The biggest thing I had to fight through was he, the counselor looked at me and said, you need to learn how to be healthily dependent or healthily detached or healthily attach. However you want to, however you want to, like, phrase that. And I was like, what do you mean, healthily detached from my wife? I thought she was the one person who could define and morph my identity. I thought that's what her role was. It's no one else can do that, but she's my wife. So yeah, I have given her the authority to work co-dependent. That's what it is. And I still struggle with, what is my role as a spouse, dude? It's such a, I want to go about it responsibly and, and how it was designed to go, but I struggle with what is, what does it mean to be healthily attached to my wife? Freak. I do think we struggle a lot, though, because we spend so much time together, like our tone affects how we feel. And it can alter the trajectory of the day. Like you're speaking tone? And just demeanor everything. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I mean, if he's having a bad day, it's probably going to affect me. Sure. And so I would say co-dependent in that sense, yeah, we work on that. I actively have to start, or I actively have to practice a lot. If he's having a bad day, be like, okay, it has nothing to do with me. And I can still have a great day, and I can help him and support him and not be affected by that. But it is difficult. Yeah, it's real difficult, yeah. And on some accounts, I can come off as unimpathetic, or oblivious, or aloof, or like, oh, he's having a bad day. That's fine. Yeah. She's having a bad day, whatever. I'll just continue on. And you're like, I don't want to be so connected with my wife and parallel. And I know that it's not, I don't want to be riding each other's emotions, but I do want to be so in tune with them. And I don't know the line between the two, you know? What's your picture of a tune that look like? What does that mean? What does that word mean? I think about, I can look in your eyes right now, like, okay, how's John doing? And I can get a pretty good picture of, like, how's this guy doing? I look at Sean's eyes, and I know her so deeply, praise the Lord, that like, if she's often in any way, I like being able to know all the million different signs, the little body language, the little eye twitches, or the way her mouth, like, and just, that to me is a tune, man, where I, the awareness, it's like, yeah, almost hyper awareness. So what I heard her say is, I'm aware, I see it, and I'm going to choose to feel good in my own skin today, and that feels like it's not a tune, man. What's my role to help her feel good if she's not? What's my role in throwing out the life raft of, hey, you're having a bad day. How is she? Let me get down in the bunker with you. Has she invited you into the bunker? She's my wife. It's a, it's, it's a perpetual invitation for that is how I interpret it. It's getting, it's opening more towards this, it's so scary, because you're about to go into our next, their next, uh, perpetual thing that we haven't figured out, which is a motion, the relevant, the relevancy of emotions. What about them? Well, even talking about a tune meant and feeling a tune and connected and understanding each other and being too codependent and it's like, we have also, this might be an irrelevant conversation might be string too far, but we try to understand each other so deeply and we do, like I can tell when he's off and I can tell when something's wrong, but in his brain, and this is maybe what you had to work on more with counseling than I did, because I can see it and I can feel it and I can understand it and I, I think a lot about emotions, but for Andrew, if he's having a hard day because of something in his brain, he will tell himself, emotions are fleeting and don't matter. I know this will pass so it doesn't even matter for me to bring it up or acknowledge it. So as his wife, maybe where we are too codependent is I can tell something's wrong and it throws me for a loop because I'm like, Andrew, I can tell something's wrong with you, something's bothering you. He's like, no, it's not, nothing's wrong. No, it will be okay. Maybe I feel like there's a dip though and I'm like, I can literally tell. And then it spirals us to this place where I'm like, well, why wouldn't you even acknowledge something's wrong? I know you well enough to know and he's like, no, it's not, it's fine. And it won't be until like days later, he's like, yeah, something actually happened that day and like bothered me, but like, it didn't matter because like sadness is fleeting. So it's just an emotion. It's not worth stamping of, of even addressing. Let me try to consolidate that conversation with the previous one with my perception of what it means to be married. Okay. So like, I do view it as my role as a man to be resilient, you know what I'm saying? To be more, to be more durable through the emotions and like, yeah, I'm, if she asked me, are you having a tough day, I'll try to say, I'll try to be away, I don't think about my emotions that much. Like, it's just not top of mind, like, I feel in my guess, but I don't know how to put words to it. Like, if she asked me how you feel, it is a really curveball of a question because I'm like, I don't even, like, what's the right word for how I feel tired/ I don't even want to get into it. It takes effort to think about and then it takes effort to communicate and then she's like, Oh, how do you know, tell me why and then I'm like, I don't want to do this at all, you know? It's like, it's all, good, it's still confusing and unintuitive to me. But I do view it as my role as a man to be durable enough that if she's having a bad day, then I can throw her the life raft and give them the bunker with her. And that way we're not both treading, like, if I'm, if I'm in a tough spot and I'm wallowing in that and she's in a tough spot and she's wallowing in that, I feel like I have failed. [BLANK_AUDIO] my role as a man, I just feel like it is my job to be, it's like, yeah, there's pressures and burdens, but dang, I think I can carry them, dude, let's go. And I got my processes and systems and I got my God, thank goodness, that helped me alleviate those. So let me shoulder as much as I can to take it off of her so that if she's having a bad act and throw her a life raft, and I think when I view a marriage, it's like, yes, she is the one person that can pierce the armor, right? And I view that as it can either be the most crippling thing in the world for me as a man, but thank goodness, thank God, I have this wife who makes it a superpower instead. And she, despite how we may funnel through it, encourages me in insane ways. And occasionally she will undermine my identity and really, and you're like, oh, frick, how are we gonna work through this? And it takes years and maybe never gets resolved, but like, if this person, if this person encourages me, like, I'm off to the races, I'm on stop, baby, let me, like, let's go, you can't beat that. So how does she encourage you? Give me two examples of a way she encourages you. And I'm backing you into a corner here, by the way. (laughing) Oh, man. She, like, if you were to use the word celebrate, what are two ways she celebrates you? She knows you enough to know this means something to him. - I would like to, I'll answer the question by correcting your earlier illusion to humility. And I want to redefine it, because you are the most, you're the most capable. - And you're the most avoidant, but keep going. - Definitely. - Oh, my God. - No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take you on. You can't do that. Just, what are two ways she celebrates you? - So kind. - In all seriousness. - We'll always turn it around. - No, no, no, two ways she celebrates you. Two action steps. She knows you will enough to know he's gonna love this. - She's amazing and she thinks I'm amazing. - No, that's, that's not, that's what it is. - That's not, that's hot air balloon. Like, what are two ways she celebrates you? - I think she's legitimately the most incredible person I met, and she's, she'll look at me and say, "Wow, babe, you're awesome." And I'm like, holy frick. - Okay, so she, so one of the things she'll, she knows you will enough to know. It's a, it's good for Andrew. If I stop him every once in a while, and just say, "You're the best." - Yeah. - Okay, what's another one? - Yeah. - Similar but different. She could do it all, and she makes room for me. - Okay. - Intentionally, what a kind act of generosity to like, include me, you know what I'm saying? And I just, I grew up middle of five kids. I grew up playing team sports. I like being a part of a team. I like doing stuff with people. I like accomplishing stuff. I like competing. I like building, growing, the whole thing. By golly, I get to do it every day. I freaking love that. That makes me feel celebrated. Like that makes me wake up every day. This is gonna be a fun day. We're gonna drive down and talk to John Deloney about all our, - Okay, did you feel the shift when you just said what you just said? - Everything just changed in this room when you said that. - Mm, did you have a feel that? - I felt it. Is it a good way? - It's not, there's no judgment on it. There's no judgment on it. - I have a hypothesis, but. - Talk to me. - No, you, like, what do you think changed? - We're in tune. I feel like now we're, now we're, now we're, we can go somewhere. Like what are we gonna do with this? Now we're aligned. There's a softness. There's a humility. There's a listening as opposed to a, I'm attacking my day, you're attacking your, you have your talking points for the show, you have your questions. I think we're all kind of in tune. - I heard, tell me if I'm wrong. I heard you say, on the scale, there's a less than here. And she invited me in. Is that fair? - That's fair. - And if I always approach this amazing thing I have called marriage as a, I'm lucky to even be here. Like I'm, every day I hope she still invites me in. Then there's a, like a natural reaction to say, when I get in there, I will be the best, right? And I'm gonna be the best walled up, brought down man ever. The challenge being, I'm gonna bring my version of what that is to this thing. Not ask her what does she need from this thing. - Right. - So, like you are like a deep snapper, right? And you get thrown in all three centers. The two centers and one of the guards who played like, just third string, they're all hurt. And they're like, bro, you got to hike the ball. And you're like sweet. And they're like, dude, we're just, we're just gonna run a shotgun formation. And you're like, and you're ripping them. As though it's a feel goal every time. That would be your version of, I'm gonna hike the ball the way I wanna hike it. I'll get it to you. And they're like, dude, we don't, we need, we need this hike. And you're like, uh-uh, I'm the best deep snapper in the game. And you're ripped, does that make sense? And so, it's bringing, I'm gonna bring my think to this instead of, hey, what's the way I can love you? And if you're, if you, I think a cool, like, an Instagrammy thing that I love is a great marriage is both people thinking they're getting the better into the deal. I like that, like that, I like that sentiment. But that's different than, am I gonna be good enough today to get invited, please, please, please, please, please, please. Let the efficiency place, does that make sense? Instead of we're both at the table. Is that fair? - Yeah. - No, I don't want, I don't want, like, a harp on something, but I have to harp on it because it's something we've talked about and today I'm at it, is, your humility turns to, I'm not good enough. And so many walks of your life. And as your wife, I tell him this so many times, I'm like, you gotta snap out of it 'cause you're freaking amazing. You're, but like, a lot of times, a lot of times his insecurities will come up and it's like, I'm not a good friend. But yet, even just like you said, your reputation within the city is insane. - And by the way, not just city. That's too, like, to the guys out of your cell phone number. - Yeah, would you have 8,000 contacts? - Yeah, it's too many people have your cell number, but. - To insecurities growing up of like, I was never as good as my brothers. To, I love that you believe so much in me, but you believe so much in me because sometimes, you pose it like you don't believe enough in yourself. And even on the, the silly show is professional forces. You couldn't even, you couldn't hear what all the four seals saw, which was like, bro, you crushed the leadership role. Why aren't you owning it? You're like, no, I didn't do anything. They did it. And as your wife, even talking about the emotion side, of like, when I can tell something's wrong, there's no weakness in you acknowledging the fact that something bothered you. But to see you struggling with something as a wife and you're not being able to like acknowledge and be like, this bothered me today. But I'm, of course, you're strong enough to get through it, but also we're stronger together to help you. I don't know, I'm like, rambling and losing thoughts. I just, you don't understand how amazing you are. It's like you don't feel like, yeah. It's so vulnerable. Again, I wish I could feel this room right now 'cause I know you want to crawl under the table right now. What's, okay, back to the definition of humility, 'cause I think one thing I admire from Sean and I've learned from Sean is, you are the most capable, able person I know. And you said that you don't like, you don't like standing on the podium being in the spotlight, I disagree with the fact. You totally own the podium in spotlight when you know that you've worked and earned that to be there, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's a, we all have a role to play, we all have skills and talents and gifts to contribute and own those, and you own yours. And like, yeah, you don't want to be isolated or feel like you're above the rules. No, not at all, that's not what it is. But it's like, what is my, what can I own in this relationship and I feel like one, I don't want to be self-deprecating. I also don't want to be like look if anything I probably skew overconfident like in so many ways you know what I'm saying I'm like this I'll walk into a you put me on a picture's mound an M.O.B. game I'll be like yeah I'm gonna freaking rock this here we go I'm ready like put me in any situation I could probably tackle it except for sitting with a buddy in my wife saying okay right can I press your test my my process for processing emotions like how I think about processing emotions I think you have one one rule and that is avoid at all cost no we're like a seal like like acknowledge and keep moving no the end goal it doesn't matter no the end goal that's what you say to me like I'll be like are you sad and she doesn't matter go ahead go go with your framework this is gonna be great the end goal let's just call it tranquility or peace is like I don't know to use a picture like still water okay and maybe that's I got into stilicism at one point in my life and I do think this concept of Christian stilicism would be really fascinating to to explore but you'll see come our house and we'll bring our thrower and we'll get right over I'll be fun my my thought is and how I want to sequence is thing happens feel the thing process step away from how I'm feeling and analyze that almost as like a third party audience member and then pretty much have like this internal dialogue of okay well what's like is there how can I attribute that feeling of anger or sadness or is it their fault or is it my fault or is there something I need to bring up is there something I felt violated and then it's like oh no that's a me problem okay sweet I just I felt anger because they showed up late and dang it you know I should have played all the time so I'll forgive them in my mind and move on and that whole sequence happens with a short of a half life as possible and so it's like you can you can try to just flow through that as quick as possible and like I don't want to be holding on to things for days and be like so angry this guy it's like how can we think of yourself as a as a one of those space heaters I get a gym like when it's cold outside and you flip it on and it electricity comes through this thing it goes through the whole thing and then it makes its way back to the wall right it closes that circuit the part that is hard especially for men to understand is emotions and feelings are not just a cognitive process it's an embodied experience and so the whole room heats up when that plug goes in the wall and your kids feel it and your wife feels it and your business partners feel it even if you're processing it and moving on there's still this projected heat blast and so letting everybody in the room know hey it's hot in here and that's on me and I'm I'm gonna get from here to there and here's a way you could love me here's a way if you could go unplug that that'll be awesome actually I I should be able to do it because I'm the brown man but it'll be awesome if you can unplug it but everybody in the room sweating now right even though it's all happening inside that box that makes sense even if it's like the smallest shortest half-life ever like we said at the very beginning we are attuned well enough that I can sense sadness or I can sense anger or I can sense joy all of it I can see it in your eyes I can see it in your face I can see it in your body so give him an action plan use them we use the sentence you could love me by a way you could love me is a way you could love me is by just voicing in a sentence this happened today and it made me feel sad in my mind that half-life doesn't have like that could be the end of it and you could be joyful from that moment forward to me that doesn't make you a sad guy that doesn't like build something bigger what would it make him what kind of guy I have a word in my head and I don't know if I'm right I mean the for the cheesy part of it is like that would make you a strong person to me because in my mind it's reflective aware of communicative I don't know because for me it's like for you for you for me to see something and in my head be like I'm learning you as your wife like I want to I want to be learning you better and better every day for the rest of our eternity right and in my mind I have to have data points to check and file and be like oh yeah that is how you process sadness that is how you process joy that is if I can say to you hey babe did something happen today and you're like nah doesn't matter to my mind I'm like oh I can't I can't be collecting data to say oh this is a good thing to do when he's sad I got another word that's what is that I don't want to put stuff on you especially publicly what were you about to say I want you to know this is so hard because I want to respond to what she wants and I'm like in some ways it should be going to try to correct back to no I know but I feel like you even as you speak you you want to be unshakable in the sense of like you forgive so quickly you can get over emotion so quickly that are disruptive I see that and I think it's a beautiful quality but the acknowledgement to me and my brain to hear you say like could could I be someone else and be shattered by what happened to yeah but didn't you know but this bothered me or this made me happy I hear you and I will strive to do that I my gut reaction is I would love to do that if it's like in the moment thing if it's that something from the past it almost reminds me from you ever walk like her therapist say what trauma do you have from your childhood and I'm like I don't know I don't have any you know I'm kind of you life is trotting around like one of the poo you know oh hey hey you just giggling yeah having a good time it's kind of it's kind of how I'm trying to work through it like six or four but you're like okay what trauma do I have for my childhood none and they're like no what trauma do you have some trauma what is it and it's like I don't have any trauma and then all of a sudden now I'm like trying to reframe something actually you know that I don't want to do that so it's like I if if it's a something happened in the past I view it as what we don't need to dig up bones that's a water in the bridge I'm I'm here what do you define as a past oh gosh because this is this is where we where you're like it happened an hour ago it doesn't matter okay can I tell you the words yeah I don't want to throw anything I don't want to throw grenade in your marriage okay you have to promise me y'all are good you're good we are good here's the word I'm hearing in my head and y'all can tell me this is wrong I'm gonna put this on you okay if there's a link between and by the way this interview went nowhere sorry yeah these like we're good so okay if I was to back all the way up and see the conversation about perpetual and solvable about being late about being on time about I want to do this nice thing for you and I I know this matters but then you don't even call or whatever all the way to what we just talked about now the word that keeps popping in my head is honesty yeah integrity do you tell the truth that makes sense if you say you can be there six are you there six because that to me integrity the integer right the whole is a bigger like that to me is one of those in bedrock like this is who we are going to be we're going to be people would tell each other the truth which is different than obviously that makes sense but that also is you doing okay yeah I'm fine you don't trust me enough to tell me the truth that you're not okay you're like no you just trust me that you don't need to know the truth right does that make sense am I wrong here no because it's there's a leap to say I can't I'm I'm I'm unable to trust him but if that's the truth these things are proxies too I start when you say you're gonna be on the six I just don't know anymore and so I have to make a world where maybe maybe not or are you doing okay I'm fine I have to make a world where does that make sense yes only with the caveat of like it's not existential is that makes sense yeah but I think you're supernatural in that because I get exit like I'm getting existential right this time yeah yeah like I I agree I do think there is like yes that's even a conversation we've had with the the late arguments of I want to be able to count on I value knowing in my head and we've had this conversation before they're like if I call you know that I'm not calling to waste time I'm calling because I need my husband to answer and when I have those inconsistencies sometimes that makes like a security side of my my mind feel weird and I think that's with like the data points of like The more I can trust myself to know you as a husband, it makes that's how it's selfish to say. It makes me feel better that I'm doing what I should do as a wife. No? Yeah. I need a road map from you and I can't love you well if I don't know where you are. Yeah. And I hear, so I hear and see in such beautiful ways, you support me and you do such a phenomenal job. My inputs aren't telling me I'm doing a phenomenal job because when I see the disturbances and I can't help you, I'm like, I don't know how to love you better without the feedback. How does that hit you? I was a low IQ guy, I'm going to have to really listen to this episode because I think I'm still processed in the last two minutes of conversation in a way that I think it can make sense. Let me try this way. Do you remember back, do you imagine you went to the office of team meetings, special teams, special teams? Do you remember when you may have always, I don't know, the trajectory of your career, but if they call the defensive meeting, offensive meeting, special teams meetings and then there was, we're running through, we're going first team and we're running through and then we're running through drills and then we have a two minute drill and then we're going to run the drill where we got to get a few of gold off but we don't have a timeout, right? So as soon as the third down is over, we got to get everybody on and off, right? But you also remember that time when they're like, "Henry, first team," and you start to jog and they're like, "Now you stay over here." I'm just going to tell this group this information, I'll buy themselves. That sense of, you know what I mean, like being an outsider or less than, or like being on the team, but that person, they get more, they get different information than I get. Yeah, you're saying that's what I'm doing to her? What I've heard her say is, "I've got, I got it." You stay on the sideline, I'll take care of it. And she's saying, "I thought we were on the same team," fair? And I want us to win this game. And so I guess you can be the coach that's like, "Yeah, I'm not having secrets between first team and second team." Everybody getting this room, we're going to have this meeting here, we're going to talk about how we're going to go win this game. And maybe somebody from second team will be like, "Hey coach, this guy keeps busting in every time, can we put another back over here?" And they're like, "Okay, maybe, maybe, probably not, probably not, but maybe." But it's the sense of inclusion, does that make sense? But the, and here's the, I think the hardest thing for you is, I think you're trying to love a thousand miles an hour, does that make sense? Yeah. I think the hardest behavior for me to change personally is when I think I'm loving well, my wife is like, "I see how hard you're trying to love me in this way. I just want you to love me in this way." I'm like, "No, no, no, but if I love you like this, it's going to be incredible." And she's like, "I know, but I just want this." I'm like, "I know, but does that make sense?" That's not enough conversation we've had. This is a fascinating conversation, because I have more thoughts. I can keep going. I'm a man. I just feel like the team meeting, if I'm calling her in, would be, it'd be like 20 minutes of silence, and I'd put all the X's and I was out there and be like, "I actually, I don't know what." Like, are you that emotionally aware, because here's, I received the honesty. All the motions for me are just lights on the dashboard. And the men in my life who have taken it to, "I'm going to go buy a can of black spray paint and spray paint over it and just drive." I will fill this car up, I'll listen for it, I'm going to drive. It's going, "My wife's in the passenger side, I'd be like, "Hey, this doesn't drive." And I'm like, "What are you going?" And that is masculine, that that is the most powerful, that's the best way I can love my wife. I've seen that implode every time. I haven't seen that be stable. Either it implodes, you can see that dude's heart attack from space, because he's been his whole life trying to hold it. Or that guy's got all these side addictions. Or she finally says, "I'm going to get my own car drive." Being able to see, "Hey, there's a light on the dashboard." And I'm going to take care of it, but I'm also going to acknowledge, "I've got to go get the car checked." Yeah. Right. Or, "I'm going to handle, or I'm sad about this thing. You know what? You could really love me if. Oh, what you could love me right now is." And that's inviting to that team meeting, because that makes sense. And can I flip the script completely? Because he learned over a decade that you're not really safe with his emotions. Did he just hear the beam on the other room? Because there's also, I also know, and again, I'm not putting it on yet. I know men who have learned over time. Yeah. Hey, I'm scared about this. It's not a big deal. Hey, dude, I'm kind of nervous about, shut up, you're fine. And they learn over time. Oh, that's not a, that's not a safe place to go with those. So I'll just all corral them and either drink them away or just pray them away or flex them, whatever the way is. Is there a fairness there? Or maybe no? Probably. What do you think when you hear that? It makes me want to step in and speak on behalf of my wife. I see it. Here we go. Don't rescue her. I mean, beyond. But here is there a sense of that? I feel like. Yeah. One, I feel like the honesty of the, the honesty is interesting because it's more complicated in the moment than it is. I feel like it's also being honest to say, we're going to be okay. And I think what Sean and I do and what I felt from you is like, this reassurance said it will be okay. And it might not be right now, but like, it's honest to say that we will and we can look at each other. And I feel, I don't feel like I've not been invited to share my emotions. I just feel like sometimes we'll just like, lock eyes and be like, it's going to be okay. I would, I hear that and I would say probably yes. Really? And the way my brain processes it going, historically speaking, is my biggest frustration, probably number one frustration in my husband, is that he does not think he's as amazing as I believe. I just think he's self-deprecation. He's hilarious. Nope. Honestly. No, it goes way past self-deprecation because there are so many historical moments in your life that you speak about that I truly think are embedded in your heart where you don't feel like you are a headliner, a front runner, you're just a support person. My job is here just to support. You're the fixer of your family, you're the, you're always the person people come to, the event too, you're all, like you were, you, you have this part of you, even with like the NFL, you're like, I was just lucky, I wasn't actually an NFL player. And with Vanderbilt, you're like, I didn't actually deserve that spot. It was just by God's grace, it was handed to me and I, you got an NBA from Vanderbilt and you'll self-deprecate and there's a serious tone to it, whether you laugh at it or not, where you're like, well, I just skirted by, I, you know, I didn't get good grades. I failed to wait. And I'm like, you can't get an NBA by failing and you are doctors now. You will make off comments of like, I'm a bad friend, all these things. And I would say that not having safe feelings resonates because I find that so ridiculously false that every time you say it, I'm like, how could you ever speak about my husband that way? It's so, that's so false. And with each one that brings up, I do believe that there is some belief behind your words in yourself of there that maybe I brushed all of that off way too fluently. But I don't know how to approach it because to me, I'm like, you are absolutely incredible. I find you, I could not operate. We wouldn't have a business. We wouldn't have a home. We wouldn't have a family. If it weren't for you. That's my girl right there, you know what I'm saying? That's fine. But do you believe it? And then that's where I'm like, I probably make his feelings feel unsafe because I just brush all of that off. I'm like, that's ridiculous. Honestly, that's pretty much how the emotional sharing goes. So yeah, you're like, yeah, you do a great job at celebrating me. But I will also say the hard part is as you have, as we've all seen. You'll say a comment like that of, I don't feel like a good friend. And I'll say, but why? And then have you like, we're here at John Lonely Show. You are freaking awesome. Right, right. And I'm like, no. Yeah. Why do you feel that way? And that, like, you don't want to address that stuff. So that's where I go. So here's my, here's my marriage challenge. Ready? Number one. Never use the word. Why? Because why is a, is felt as an accusation? It's inherently a judgmental question. Why do this instead of this versus tell me about why you feel it's like not a good friend. Can you tell me one situation where you are a good friend? And that's just, that's an invitation. That's the right way to use why. That's one of the things in counseling when they drill in your head, never ask why, or hostage to go station 101, never ask the word why. Because it puts somebody, an airplane defense versus an invitation. Or I hear you say that and it breaks my heart. Tell me more about what you mean by that, which is an invitation to say, I just heard and felt your emotions and that made me sad because I know this guy. Different than you know this guy, unless it pisses you off because you think it's like a move, right? No, it's ever moved. It's not a move. I feel bad for the people listening to this show. Honestly, we have benefited so much from you as a friend, dude. No, don't just try. Listen, what do you feel bad for people listening to the show? Because we get the benefit of interacting with you, and the blessing of y'all being honest. What's a takeaway from this? Glue stuff, talk about your incredible book. The idea of honesty, we got to talk about your book, too. I'll bring you. I'll talk about that later. I'm hyped for that. This idea of honesty is interesting and the timing of it, I think I've learned about. So it matters to her to know all the little bumps in the road that I had that day. So almost being more intentional with logging those things myself as opposed to just being a goldfish. This doesn't matter to me, but it might matter to Sean to know that this person, I don't know, to share the little things. I would love that. Thank you for enlightening us with that. She had an idea. I didn't do anything. She did that for folks, well, that's a road map. She just gave it to you. She gave you a GPS pin on the map towards this world y'all are building together, which is I would love the little things. I'll try not just, I don't want to be dramatic, though, so I feel like, you wouldn't believe it. This person said to me today, you know, and she'll promise you, I'll promise you, on words in your mouth, she'll promise you, I'm experiencing this as pretty dramatic. She'll let you know. Okay. And now you can be unfettered. I appreciate that. Don't appreciate for me. She's the one that I don't live by y'all anymore because y'all abandoned me. The idea of I'm supporting her in the way I want her to be supported and not supporting her in the way that she wants to be supported was helpful. Not right there will change people's sex lives will change their money conversations will change their tiny things day and day celebrations, which is most people default to, I love it when my wife walks through the kitchen and slaps me in the butt, so she's surely going to love that, right? And we try to love each other the ways that we want to be loved instead of saying doing the hard work. And y'all talked about this a lot on your show. It will change so much over time. That means I'm constantly in a state of knowing how can I love you this month? How can I, what are you into in the bedroom or not in a bit like, what are you into? How can I continue to show up in a way that you feel seen and known so that you can show up and am I clear with you how you can show up for me? That becomes just the game changer of all game changers, I think. That's a good reminder. And third, I'm leaving grateful with the fact that our life is, whether by design or not, we live in a way that I don't have to say, oh, I'm choosing this conversation over my wife. You know, that happens so very rarely that if we were in any other context, I feel like there would be a lot of mess that I would have to clean up given my faults that I have. So those are my takeaways, but it's okay. I know you're not choosing other people over me, but effectively, you, I don't want this, this is going past podcasts. I don't want you to feel like you're on a golf course and I said, I'll be home by one. I have to be home by one because I need to go have more time with my wife. It's like, you can stay out there till for five days, I think in my mind, it's just like having that trust of, you'll let me know. I'm so excited you're having so much fun. It brings me joy to serve you and serve that and support that. It also helps to know like, should I wait up for you? Would you love that? Sorry, we turned this into a counseling session. I got better today, we got better today. Thank you. We're so excited to talk. Glad to call you a friend.