Off the Record With Nedra Tawwab

How do you be in relationship with imperfect people? We need friction. We need some sort of tribulation. If you put up a boundary and say, "You can't cross this one," you may be on the other side of that thing and maybe you need to grieve that relationship. There is that group where it's like, "Ooh, you need to cut them off 25 years ago." Tell me if I'm just being too traumatic. There's just a sense of disempowerment. Well, three things. One is, I'd say, you're not being dramatic enough. What's going on? This is John Deloney. The Dr. John Deloney show, this is an episode of what's fast becoming one of my favorite things I get to do in the world. Much less for a job. It's another episode of Off the Record. I got to sit down with one of my heroes, one of the smartest best therapists I know. Her name is Nedra Toob. I first saw her when I picked up Instagram in 2020, but she's a real therapist. She's not just an Instagram-y person with a bunch of unanchored info and nonsense. She actually sees real clients. She's a New York Times best-selling author. She wrote an extraordinary book on boundaries. She's written a book on this idea of balance. This conversation was so good and I fangirl hard. We talk about relationships, boundaries, aging parents, how to navigate personal responsibility in some really tough situations. She gives really sound, clinical, but practical wisdom on how to go live a better life and how to have better relationships. And I'm so grateful that she came to Nashville to hang out with us. So check out my conversation with the great and awesome Nedra Toob. So you wrote one of my favorite books of the last decade. And it was on boundaries and I put it up there with James Clear and with Atomic Habits in terms of there's a lot of stuff out there on it. And you hear habits, habits, you hear boundaries, boundaries, but it's the clearest, most not only approachable, but not only action-based. But the meta theme I walked away with is boundaries are not weapons. They are their bridges, their pathways. And it had a huge impact on me. And so I want to tell you thank you for writing that book. I want to talk about boundaries for a minute and then we'll get to the latest book you've written. This is the latest book you've written? Yes, we could talk about boundaries for like 30 minutes. We could talk about it. Okay, we can have no boundaries while talking about boundaries. Okay, so again, one of the things I like to be honest about is I'm wrong a lot. And it's why I like bringing in experts that I have high respect for that you can say that's stupid. I wouldn't say it that way. I know because you're kind, but feel free to say that that way. No boundaries, right? It feels like boundaries have become excuses boundaries have become overprotective measures. And they've gotten further, further away from the original idea that you've written about that my buddy Henry Claude wrote about years ago, that boundaries are a way to make sure you're staying connected with people and here's what must be true. What has happened in the boundary world? You've lived in this for a while. Humans, you know, people screwed it up a good idea. Yeah, I think we could take any message and make it our own. And sometimes even with boundaries is like, how do I need these principles to fit my life even if what I'm trying to do is divisive? Like, how do I flip it and make it a tool that someone taught me something I read about and say, well, this person said, I need to do x, y, and z when, you know, I've said something completely different. So how do you navigate somebody says, well, I'm putting on my boundaries now. You're not allowed if you can't put your shoes there when you walk in the house. I'm putting on my boundaries now. You can't. How do you how do you help coach somebody from saying because basically boundaries can become a prison you build for yourself and not only can nobody get to you, but you can't get out. But how do you teach somebody to take boundaries, which are important? Like what must be true for this relationship to be healthy and survive or for me to be safe? How do you teach somebody that? Well, if you use the shoe example, okay, someone comes in your house and they set their shoes somewhere is your house, you know, your boundary stratosphere move their shoes. You move their shoes. It's your house. You can say to a person, hey, don't set your shoes there. But what do you do if they continue to do it? You are the person with a boundary, so you really have to own that and you have to make the changes very often it's I don't like this person's behavior and here's what they need to do to have my boundaries. And it's like, well, it's your boundaries. What can you do? I have boundaries in my home. I have kids and I have places that I want things to go and I can make requests. I can say, hey, don't set your backpack there. Please, you know, get your socks up X Y and Z. I can move them. I can stop buying them socks. No. Exactly. You don't have anymore. No more socks. What can I do to manage the situation because kids will be kids? There are ways that I can put some things into practice to remind them of what my boundary is. Maybe they get consequences. So sometimes when we issue boundaries with people, if they're not listening, what is the consequence? What's the buy-in for them to listen? You know, at some jobs, they say, okay, here is our attendance policy. If you do not abide by this, here is the consequence. So that's a good boundary when it's, well, if you continue to put your shoes here, I'm going to set them on a portion. They're going to get wet. So I'm not crazy when I, because when someone says, I'm going to put down these boundaries. I always tell folks, if you're going to lay down boundaries, you have to have an or what statement. Like, if you do this, this and this, you can't do that anymore or what? You're going to leave. You're going to leave over the shoes or like you mentioned, you're just going to move the shoes. Yeah. Or is it something you can stick to? You know, when you think of a consequence, this is another thing. Like, many people might have the same problem, but it's based on what can you do in this situation? It may not be option A. It might not be BB. It could be a C that we need to brainstorm about because it's based on your temperament, your ability. Not everyone can take an invite and just say, no, I'm not going, right? Some people know not this time, but Tuesday, can we do X, Y, and Z? No, this won't work for me, but here's how I can help you with this. Like, so there are so many different ways to even say no. It's not just no for everyone. It really depends on what can I manage. How do I want to support this relationship? And sometimes who is the person because some people do need a flat note. You don't give them anything. I feel like the one of the meta messages we get culturally is you should never feel uncomfortable. You should never feel out of sorts. And if you feel out of sorts or if you feel uncomfortable, it's somebody else's fault or the relationship is over or or or. How do you gently or abruptly coach someone into what you're talking about as a complete and total mind shift, which is. The most common thing I hear when people sit down with me, talk about their marriages, if they would just, if they would just and sometimes that's true, like it's abusive, it's unsafe, struggling with addiction or like there is something if they would just. But often it's no, I want them to live in the world that I want to create and that's not a relationship, right? And it's hard to shift somebody even to that mindset much less, pick up a shoes, man. That's your friend. That's your right or die. You both said that the part pick up shoes or ask a deeper question, which is. Or be honest about the story you're making up whenever I see those shoes, I feel like you don't love me. I feel like you don't care about me. And that makes me feel sad. Right. Instead of you always, you always, you always, how do you help someone to make that shift? Because I feel like broadly speaking. Man, tell me if I'm just being too dramatic, which people tell me often. Just go over there in the corner. Somebody go and patch on the head. This happened. You're this. Here's the label. Here's a diagnostic. Here's the relationship you find yourself in. Somebody else will handle it. And there's a, I think the reason I resonate with you so much is there seems to be a. Hey, you're driving in the seat of your life. What do you want? What do you want to sing to look like? And there's a sense of you give people agency back. Well, three things. One is I went to a performance high school. So I say you're not being dramatic enough. Okay. Clip that too. Clip that too. Two. When I work with couples, sometimes it's very interesting because. One of the big fights that I see is who should be doing what went like task, disk distribution. So when we get off work, this person should cook. This person does this, this person does that. There's no, I know conversations. It's typically, especially, I had oral sexual relationships around like, who does what well? Gender aside, who does what well? Can you take the garbage out without it leaking? Or can he do it, right? Who is a better cook? If neither of you like to claim, should the expectation be that you have the same cleaning standards? So some of these things is like, well, if I don't like to do it and they don't like to do it, but I push through and do it, they're being lazy. There's a problem with them. We have to come to my side and do everything like me. Some of what you're talking about, like this person needs to think like me, be like me for us to be in a happy, functioning relationship. When I introduce the idea of, would you like to take some of your disposable income and get a housekeeper? Oh, no, no, no. We should be able to do this as adults. Would you like to clean the bathroom instead of putting it on your, oh, no, no, no. So there has to be some flexibility in relationships, some flexibility around not what your partner is capable of, but also what is their capacity? What is their rest need and what is their desire to do it? Yeah. And it went way too long, like years and years and years. But I remember a conversation my wife and I had about the dishes. And it wasn't, it was a light bulb that went off. And it actually led to a pretty deep conversation about identity that I wasn't expecting. But the conversation was, hey, I do the dishes, but when I'm eating cereal out of a salad bowl, that's my signal to work. I got nothing left in those camps. I didn't clean those dishes. For you, you have this picture of that before I, my head, it's the pillow that Kitchens got to be ready for me to walk in the next morning and the business start from scratch. Since we never talked about that, then it becomes a, you're not, well, you're always. You never, and it was her giving me a picture of what she wanted the world to look and feel like and me not hearing that picture, right? Not accepting that picture because I didn't even know what it was. It's like, I will do the dishes. They don't need to be done right now. She's like, they got to be done every day. And the identity question underneath that was, oh, she had a story that she had told herself for years that this is what a home looks like. And this is a wife's responsibility, even though she was a professor and doing her full time job. Like, this is what a kitchen's supposed to look and feel like. And we had never talked about that story. And it opened up a bigger conversation, but it came back to that idea. What's your picture? This thing look like. And you're asking a question, tell me a few experience this. When folks say, almost always under the logistics question, who's doing what? Is the sense of, I feel less than in this house or a way to balance me feeling less than you need to? That makes sense. It becomes a scorekeeping. It becomes a, well, I'm doing this so you should do this. This divorced from, do we have dishes or not? Right? This becomes the proxy war. Yeah. And what is fair? Right. So if we live together and I'm doing these things and you're like resting, like that's not fair. I'm not resting. Yeah. And also you're making the choice to not rest to do these other things. So that's something we have to look at too. Like what am I giving up by, by having to have things a certain way? Now, you're making choices. You're making choices. Now personally, I make the choice to be out of sorts sometimes because I do want my house in certain way. So I make that choice. I do want it to look a certain way. And I also realize that is my expectation in the household. That's my kids' rooms. I just close the door because your room, your business and most of the time, right? Because if I go in your room, it is not organized to me. But can you find your belt? Oh, you just showed me. You know what you're about? That's how I would keep my belts. Right. So it's really, some of it is like personal preference. It's not a household need. And so learning, I am living with other people. They may operate differently. What is clean to them? What is clean to me? What is required? What is too much? What is too little? Now, some people have partners who do nothing. Sure. That's what makes the Instagram me discourse hard is there are some new eyes, right? There's some terms. There's some terms. Yeah. Who don't do anything? It's not my job, right? Yeah, it's not my job. But once I learned similar, like once I learned, oh, it's not a matter of, we're not fighting over dishes. We're fighting over a thing that gives my wife peace. Mm-hmm. Oh, I'm in on that. Mm-hmm. I'll do dishes for you. Or all the way for me to give you some space. Feel loved and support it. I'm in. Yeah. I want to feel loved and support it. When I work with couples and particularly those not having sex and heterosexual relationships in particular, if it's a guy and he's like, you know, when I have his sex and I'm like, are you doing it issues? It's a part of her libido. Yeah. I just heard Jordan Carlos on. He wrote that tour playbook. It was so good. Yeah. If you want more sex, take her cart to the gas station, fill it up. You know, you think it's not these little things, but the more that's on her plate, she's not sitting down to 8 p.m. She's exhausted. Mm-hmm. And so the more things you can remove, say, oh, no, no, no, honey, I took care of dinner, even if you're stopping to grab something, even if you're picking up a meal at the grocery store, it's something off her plate. Yeah. And so thinking about it in that way that there are ways I can support my partner so they can be more present. So yeah, it's not just about cleaning. It's about showing that I can support my household. So along that same vein, I get that question a lot too. We're not having sex. Well, why not? And the conversation I hear from men a lot is, I just want her, I just want to get off the church heart. I want to get off the list. And I've developed a hypothesis and then when she told me if I'm wrong or not, I know it would be a same right because I've already hit send on the manuscript. So I'll be right down. It's right. You wrote it. It's right. I don't know what you're saying. Good affirming therapist. Here's my hypothesis. If I'm in, there's a bigger picture to the just the sex conversation. So often I see couples loving needs back and forth at each other. I need this. I need you to put the kids to bed. I need you. I need more sex. I need more of this. In essence, I'm taking my ability to exist and I'm handing it to you and saying this is your job. And what I've found, sitting with couples is instead of saying, we need to be having more how I want you and going from what we love needs at each other actually deeply felt wants. And it's scary to say want because your partner might say, I don't want that same thing. But if you and I were walking on the sidewalk outside of this building and somebody collapse, we'd both run over there because they need somebody. That's just humans, right? But there's something powerful I found about somebody looking in their spouse and saying, I want you. I want some help around here. I want to have some space to be with you and I got so many things going on. Is there, am I wrong there? Is there, do we love needs at each other or the way I think in my head is, like I need food. I need water. I need air. And most everything else is a really powerful want. It's what I want. I don't think we can explore that without considering how much the family system, the marriage ecosystem, the world has changed. We have way more task than our parents had. Our kids, our grandparents, kids are busier. There are so many activities, you know, 60 years ago, women were not working outside the home. My dad tells the story about the time he made the All Star team in Houston as a little kid which meant the games were a cross town. And his, my grandparents, who are the best people ever, they didn't even budge, I'm driving you. Are you crazy? If you can't run your bike, I'm playing baseball. My grandmother was a stay at home mom. She didn't work outside the home and come home and take care of all her children. So there is logistics here. There are so many-- Doctor's appointments and braces and sockers and braces. I mean, it's even more kids with braces now. I mean, everything has increased and we are the same human beings, biologically. We haven't been geared with, oh, you know what, let's give these humans more time. Right. Let's give them more energy. Like, we don't have that stuff and so guess who we're looking at, like, I'm depleted. You're depleted. Help me. I'm depleted. Like, these are the things we need to do and there's no quick solution for it but I think one thing that could be helpful is having more support. That can come from family. It can come from friends. It can come from our communities. We have to navigate these things better. I think about, like, my neighborhood and the families who have kids, my age, oh, it's beautiful on a Saturday. My kids are gone. They're running around playing. They're running around playing now. kids may come in and get some snacks and then they're gone again. That's it. That's beautiful. But there was a time when my kids are just in my house. So you're yeah, they're they didn't have anyone to play with. So I think just the communal part of it needs to increase for couples to survive with all these expectations. We live further away from our families now. A lot of things are expensive. We have really high boundaries, which can be good sometimes, but it also depending on what the boundaries are, it limits ability for others to support us, right? Because it's like, you know, you give some parents like, here's my list for you to use with my kids and they're like, what? Exactly. I rather not watch them. Exactly. Let them have macaroni cheese. They can't have this, they can't do that. They can't, which is necessary for some kids. And so being flexible and being open to outside of my home, there are other people that can support me, getting to know your neighbors, asking your single unmarried friends and family members to support you. I think that that would give marriages and families a lot of release. Yeah, but it's like the two of you just doing it alone. It's like, it's a lot. So again, tell me if I'm wrong. Real quick, we like in a short time span. If a buddy of mine, if a neighbor of mine's like, hey, can you drive me to the airport? I'd do it. But my first thought would be, once you Uber like an adult, right? And if I haven't had somebody come borrow eggs or sugar ever at my house in Nashville, that was part of my childhood. It was going around the neighborhood, getting my mom needs another egg. Hey, my mom needs more sugar. And I used to instacart it. It just comes over. These new technologies are awesome. But what I feel the sense of that's crept inside of me is, I don't want bother anybody, which is the flip side of that is. Now we're getting into the balancing act, right? Yes. I'm a burden. Yes. I don't want to ask my neighbor, hey, can you come watch my kids for two hours with me and my wife? Just go for breakfast. And they, here's what I'm robbing them of a purpose. Most people would love to help their neighbor. They would love to be around kids again, because they're 65. They haven't been around young kids. Like, I'm stealing that from them because of my own picture of myself, which has become, I don't want bother anybody. My after school program was going over my neighbor's house. It's like Ms. Williams. I'm here and she let me in. Give me a snack until my mom got home. She was an old lady and she had her grandson there. And it was, that was after school program. There wasn't, you know, my husband sent me something today of a mom on next door saying, hey, my son gets out of school at 330. I'm still working. Is there anyone here who could pick him up and take him to the after school program? And it's like, wow, like, this used to be my neighbor's job. I was just go next door. That's right. It wasn't like a after school program per se. It was neighborhoods working out. It was neighborhoods working it out with each other's kids. Like, what time are you? Okay, well, they can come here and we'll do that. And we're all going here on Saturday. And we have moved so far away from that that we're operating in this, I don't want to say lonely, but in this isolated bubble, like not being able to borrow sugar and whatever. It feels lonely to me. Why don't you like that word? It is lonely. I think it is lonely on isolating. And I think we have to almost do the uncomfortable thing and move back to being in community with people even when it feels uncomfortable. I had a firm recently have surgery and I was taking her some food. And someone said, why don't you just door dash? And I was like, you know, I think a part of being there for her and her recovery is taking the food. I don't think it's being disconnected and be like, here's a door dash. You know, like, I want to be present with you to hand you to food and how you doing. You look, you know, like eyes on the person. But everything is so convenient. You can just say, like, oh, I hope that person with this thing because I sent them a Uber. So I learned this lesson in a radical way, about five years ago. So we live in a place outside of town. It's got an old gravel driveway up, it's in the country, right? My neighbor, I think he's 78. He may be 80. He's been there forever, lived on this land his whole life. Well, there's a bad rain and my gravel driveway. I got these huge rivets in it and I can barely drive my car up it. And one morning, I see him out there in this giant tractor and he had regraded his driveway and there he comes up, leveling mine out, grade mine out. And so I took a chunk of cash and I gave it to my son and I thought I was helping my son. I thought I was teaching my son when she like that guy did a really cool thing for us. I want you to take this in this envelope and run it over to him. A couple days later, he does it, a couple days later, I'm driving out and my old neighbor's on the corner. He's doing something with the yard and he says, hey, and I rolled my window down and he said, don't ever give me money again. And I said, no, I'm gonna pay for whatever. And he said something that stuck with me. He said, "Young man, I'm your neighbor." And I said, all right. And I didn't get it at first, but it was, it slowly metabolized it over time. Fast forward, maybe six months ago, my wife has these massive gardens. And he did it again. He graded the driveway when it washed out. And so my wife made him this giant basket full of like she makes these fancy breads and stuff. And it was awesome and vegetables from a garden. And I took that over to him and said, hey, thank you for that. He started crying. He was all sweaty. He was at work and he gave me a big hug. And that's was like, oh, he, the fact that it was my time. That was something from Mark. I was like, from us, not just an exchange of transaction, much transaction. But that line, I'm your neighbor has sat with me like, oh my gosh, what have we done? You know what I mean? Yeah, we have to walk it back. Yeah. We have to walk it back. I remember being single and living on my own. And I heard a loud bump in the night. And who was at my door? My neighbor from across the heart. Ned, are you okay? And I'm like, I don't know. I heard a noise. He's like, just run to the door. And I ran to the door. He came and checked the apartment. He's like, everything is good. But that comes from building a relationship. Is it married him? No. That's a good guy right there. That's a good guy. No, he was married. Okay. He was married. But that just comes from, you know, the hellos. And oh, I got your mail. And oh, I cooked a little extra this. And, you know, just building a relationship up over time, not being afraid to talk to people. But now it's like, I go on my, you know, you might go in your apartment and you're on your phone. You don't even see your neighbor's face. That's exact. Yeah. You don't even see your neighbor. So if you're an apartment, you sit on the elevator with three other people. Yeah. Everybody stand at the phone. Yeah. So it's, we don't have the ability to connect in that way anymore. But it is so important to have those relationships. And I think very often we're like, no, it has to be family. No. It's neighbors. It's the barista at your local coffee shop. It was a name. It is your mailman. Yeah. It is. It's all the people. Yeah. It's the, you know, it's the, the couple that walks past my house most mornings. They're walking. And I'm just like, hello. You know, it's, it's all of that stuff. Like, I feel like, gosh, if I didn't see them for a week, I'd be like, wait a minute. Where are they? Yeah. Where are they? I've seen you. Yeah. I've seen you. Oh, you got, you had a surgery? Yeah. Like, I would be invested. Um, and that is uncomfortable. If you haven't done a while, or if you've never done it, right? If you're, if you're 28 in the last 10 years and you graduated school and you've been out in the world, like, this isn't how the world is operated. The, the path I see is just two uncomfortable paths. And so it's not a matter of one's easy and one's not. They're both uncomfortable. Either it's going to be uncomfortable to, all right, I'm going to go make some neighbors. All right. Right. I'm going to go make some friends with my neighbors. And I don't have to be best friends. I don't even let them in my house. But I'm going to get to know people. I'm going to acknowledge. I'm going to wave. I'm thinking my earphones out or I'm going to take the other uncomfortable path, which is I'm going to try to do this whole thing by myself. And I'm going to keep going until it implodes on me. I don't see another. It's just choose your discomfort, choose your uncomfortable path, right? Yeah. When I'm, when I'm working with moms who are like, I'm burnout, I'm doing all the things. I don't have a lot of support. I'm like, do you have friends with children your age? Do you all do meal swaps? Do you all, you know, give people, give each other relief with your kids? Maybe they take your kids to their kids Thursday. Like, how do you be able to commit community when you feel like you don't have any? Like who's in the same situation as you? Like, who are you complaining to? Could they, could they help? When I have that conversation with moms, what I run up against is I've crudely named it the guilt factory. There's this underlying story that is I should be able to do all this. And it, it, it runs up not against the logistics. So in my head, I'm like, yeah, call a friend and ask, or just don't do the PTA thing this six months. And because you're also pregnant again, and your husband's out of town this, this, this particular season, like, just don't do that thing. It's not logistic question as much as it's an identity issue. - Yeah, and also, I think, you know, clinically, we have to like walk people back into a world where they did one thing. So when I'm talking to clients and you're like, I should be able to, whatever, I'm like, okay. So you went to college, you had, you know, 12 credits or something. Didn't that feel like a lot in one day? Yeah, I was busy to do that. Okay, now we're at it. Now we're going to a nine to five. You're working 40 hours a week. And I, you don't have kids, you know, Mary, didn't that feel like a lot like what extra time did you not have any? Now let's add, you know, like, you're adding all this stuff with your same capacity brain. Like you've got, like, why do you think the capacity is increasing? It is not. You're just doing way more things. You went from 12 credits to 40 hours a week, to 40 hours a week in Mary, to 40 hours a week, Mary with one child, 40 hours a week. Too much. It's too much. And it's not a moral failure. It's not a character issue. It's just a capacity. Yeah, it's impossible. And then you want your kids to be well-rounded. So they're in the debate club. They're in this, they're in that, they're, it's like, you're doing a lot of things. And I think a few days of crying in your closet or, you know, snapping on someone, it's reasonable. Correct, right, right, right, right. Very reasonable, give it all the things you're doing. I don't know if it's the greatest gift she gives me in this current season. We're in, besides the fact that she's just awesome, but is, she lets me know it's coming. And I'm like, thank you for that. And I've learned to let her know, hey, I'm coming home, I'm coming in hot. And she's like, got it. And that's a, it's a cool, it's, I'm gonna do my best, but I'm over the line, right? I've, I've exceeded my ability to hold it all. How do you circle them back to boundaries? Again, I'm dramatic. I feel like we have a cutting people off epidemic of either I'm uncomfortable, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna bell curve this. There's abuse and there's evil and nonsense. So that's over here. But we cut people off, 'cause they're annoying, or we cut people off, 'cause they like to Fordous conspiracy theory emails, or we cut people off because they say dumb things or COVID keeps coming. Like, am I crazy? It feels like there's just been this, no. - I wanna first give space to people who have been abusive, disruptive, tyrants for a very long time. And now we're just getting the motivation, the language, and understanding the need to cut them off. So there is that group where it's like, ooh, you need to cut them off 25 years ago. And then it's the group you're talking about like this person is annoying, they have some behaviors I don't like, gosh, why do they keep talking to me about this thing? And what's really helpful is to think about how can I show up in relationship with imperfect people because we're not gonna like everybody. Sometimes it's people we work with. Sometimes it's our family. Are there ways that I can place boundaries around what we talk about, right? So when they start to bring up this thing, I'm not engaging in that conversation. So I may say to them, hey, I'm not talking politics and I'll change the subject and I'm like, but did you hear so-and-so's new album? - Right, right, right. - But what you just said is a radical take, I think. - Yeah, like I'm not talking about that. - How do you be in relationship with imperfect people? - As an imperfect person. - As an imperfect person because- - That sounds like crazy talk now. - Yeah, well. - 'Cause that's not how the world tells us it's supposed to be. - Well, every relationship should be frictionless. You should feel good all the time. - We need friction. - Yes. - We need friction. We need some sort of tribulation in life. Like that is what helps us to understand the experiences of others. So if someone is sending me, I don't know emails and it's like, what are you talking about first? I'm gonna try and let me ignore the emails. Not ignore the person, but I'm not gonna respond to you. Now, if you start to get pushy, maybe you're sending more. It's like, hey, did you get the email I sent? Now it's time for a conversation, right? Like, hey, I'm not responding to these type of emails. I get that this is something you wanna talk about. Maybe there is someone in your orbit that's interested, but I'm not engaging on this or here's my view. And, you know, I understand that this is your view and I feel it to be harmful or ignorant or blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, I don't wanna talk about that. And I think, depending on the view, because I think that matters too, because there are some views that are harmful to humanity and there are some that's just like, I can't believe you believe that. Like, do you really believe that gorillas would do that? You know, like, so it depends. The boundary should depend on what the information is. What is this person's desire to execute, you know, this information or share it with other people? So, that matters too. And I think the way that we manage that is through conversation. Sometimes people are cut off and we haven't tried anything. I'm talking about, again, abuse aside, that's different. - Yeah, yeah, totally. - But some people, you can shift the relationship just by having an uncomfortable conversation, just by having some consequences when you have boundaries with them. That can change the way that they show up with you. And it's not to say that you're like changing them as a human, but you're changing the way they operate with you. And you have to also be open to people having boundaries with you. Because one of the things we love to have is, oh, here are all my boundaries. Other people have boundaries too. When I was talking about my kids' rooms earlier, I used to try to like go in and organize. And my oldest said like, well, I think this stuff on my desk kind of works for me because I use it and I like to have it on hand. I'm a no, I don't like stuff on a counter. I don't want anything on my vanity, like put it all away. I know that people exist in a world and they like to have their stuff out. I don't get it. But I'm like, can you put the toothbrush away? - Feel like my wife is sitting across from me talking. She's like, why do we have to have the coffee maker on the counter? - Yeah, the toothbrush is not a decoration. - But it kind of is. - It's kind of not. - But that's what's for you. - Okay. - Yeah, the coffee, the toaster, the this, that that is like, can it go on a cabinet, right? - Yeah. - What does that mean for me? I'm doing a lot of putting things away before I buy appliances. I'm measuring to make sure they have space in the cabinets like that. - And I just come home and I'm like, look at us. And my wife's first thought is, not, that's amazing. Where's that gonna go? - Yes, but the people in my home should have their space. So for my children, your space is your desk, your dresser. And so if you're the sort of person who likes stuff to be out, I just can't look at it. So I'm gonna close the door. - But that's you saying, that's a me problem. - That's a me problem. That's not a you problem. You are a different sort of organizer than me. (laughing) - What's that, our buddy Becky says that the most generous interpretation we're different kind of organized. (laughing) - You won't be getting a Netflix special, but. - No, yeah. - But there is, you know where your stuff is. You're not bringing Marie Joy. (laughing) - Yeah, so it's a matter of like, this is not how I would do it, but how can I allow people to have their stuff, their opinions, their whatever those things are without being like, you have to think like me, you have to dress like me, you have to do this. I remember having a friend and another friend didn't like the way she dressed. And she said, why don't you tell her she dressed silly and she should wear this? And I'm like, that's not my business. Why do you think that she should have your style preference? - Yeah. - Like that's not, it's one of those things like this person has to think like me. They have to feel the same way about things. So we have to grieve the same. We have to be sad about the same type of things. And that's why we have other saying like. - In the same way. - In the same way. Don't be sad about that. That's not a big deal. Don't, you know, those are boundary violations as well. Or you didn't comment on this strangers. - Yeah, you didn't do this. Like you should, it's like, what does that matter to you? What does, it really doesn't, you know, when we think about it, it's like. - Where does that come from? Because what you're talking about, I mean, it's in the title of your book, but I think a thing that's absent from most of us these days is that sense of peace. And so people ask me about a coast of financial too, like ROI and this, I'm like, dude, I'm solving for peace. And I'll give the extra 2% APR over here for this banker I know him and I know his name. And he gave me a cell phone number. I'm solving for peace. So I'll give up, we just don't have that. I'm not gonna have that argument with you 'cause I love you and we're hanging out. Like, but that's me not trying to win or not trying to justify myself. That's me just solving for peace. I don't think we have that anymore. - Yeah, yeah, we. Or we think that peace is something out there that we can drag in here instead of something from inside out. Yeah, it is internal. We have to create it. We have to execute it. You asked about how to be in relationships with imperfect people. I think one beautiful way to do that is not cutting them off, but de-centering them. Sometimes we have too much contact with people who annoy us. We're saying too many things, and I'm not talking about the people who live in your home, but if you have an annoying sister and you guys argue every day, do you need to talk every day? Can you talk every other day? That might be more helpful for your relationship if you actually have something to catch up on. Yeah. Just not people to talk about. Yeah. Sometimes it's a matter of every morning when I walk past this person's desk, I say this. I just shift the question that I ask them. Because if you know that they complain and you say, "How was your weekend?" I don't always want to know about people's weekends. I don't always want to know how some people are doing because I know what your risk is going to be such a like energy zap. I don't want to know. And so my question for them or my feedback to them right off is very different. It's just high. I'm not even going to say, "Hey, how are you doing?" Yeah. I can see you. Yeah. Like, I don't want to know because I know you're going to stop me and it's going to be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't need to cut you off. I need to stop asking you how you're doing. Yes. I got to stop that. That's interesting. So if I engage in a conversation with a family member and every time I call them, I know how it's going to end because they want to talk about X, Y, and Z. At some point, that's not their problem. That's mine. Because I keep calling. Or I keep picking up the phone or I keep expecting this call is going to be different this time. And I've experienced this from my own parents who are amazing, they're both still alive. And I hear this a lot. There's, I call it chasing the dragon. I know it's, I got a heroin reference to it, but this call will be the one that they say this magic thing or this will be the one where I can get through to him on this issue. They keep talking about, right? And it's my fault because it's not going to change, right? And there's, there's almost a grief to that sometimes. And then there's a choosing reality of like, okay, here's what I get to do next, right? Yeah. And sometimes people will have a perpetual problem that they actually don't want to resolve. Exactly. And you have to accept, this is an issue they will always have. You can give them 5,000 solutions, you can help, you can go over and help them save your energy, listen, maybe give a little bit of worth, hmm, whoa, I would spend any energy trying to help them shift the situation they've been having for 20 years. Sometimes that's our friends talking about their partner is like, yeah, you say he gets on your nerves, but he's been doing this side there for like, yeah, I'll listen to it, but I'm also actually watching TV while listening like it is, it's not going anywhere. But I don't want to say you should do this, try this, I love you deeply. I'm tired of hearing you talk about this, this is what I'm thinking, not saying, you know, I'm tired of hearing you talk about this problem, but it sounds like you're not ready to make a move. Yeah. And that's okay. Like you, I'll be right here either way. I'll be right here either way. And then when you finish talking about that thing because I'm not giving it much energy, now we can move on to talking about some fun stuff. Talk to me about sitting with somebody. There's been a big conversation and again, you're one of the only sane voices in the world talking about this. There's been lots of conversations about boundaries and boundaries and boundaries and what I find often is people are stunned that there are consequences to their boundaries. And so I hear, how do I tell my parents, my aging parents, X, Y, or Z without it hurting their feelings? Or how do I tell my spouse, I need him or her to step up in this way without them feeling. And my impulse is to always say, you can't control how they respond. You can control how you show up. But if you put up a boundary and say, you can't cross this one, you may be on the other side of the thing and maybe you may have to grieve their relationship. They may look at that boundary and say, find that I'm out or they may try with all their might to knock that boundary down, right. But there's a sense of now that I put a boundary up, everything should be fine. And usually I've found, no, that's putting up the boundary step one. Now you got to deal with the reality of what the relationship actually is on this side of it, right? Yeah, everybody can't tolerate, they're not interested in, they're not willing to change it anyway. Sometimes it's our parents, sometimes it's our partners, sometimes it's, you know, a work environment, right? Like you can say, hey, this is toxic and unhealthy. You have people quit and left and right. And the company may not want to change. Right. So now I have a choice. So now you have a choice. And yes, when we put those boundaries out there, we have to be ready for the person's response. What I see people typically doing wrong is anticipating that someone won't like it. And then they change their behavior. They're acting funny since I told them X, Y and Z is like, well, you used to call them every day and then you stopped after you said your boundary. I would have called them the next day, you know, the people can repair, you have to continue to do what you were doing and not act as if it changed everything unless they say so. You know, information can be difficult to process. And I get that some people will push back, some people will test like that is a part of the process for them. So this expectation that once they hear it, they're going to be like, yes, I've been waiting for you. Why have you taken so long to tell me this thing? Like, I've been waiting for years. No. They're like, what? Like, I didn't even know this was an issue. Yeah, it's been on your mind for a long time. Not on theirs? Yeah. Not on theirs. This is new information. They have to have some time to be able to digest. Sometimes really hard things that we're sighing to them. And so giving them that time and you doing your repair portion can be helpful when you're placing boundaries. But, you know, something I say to my clients, I'm laughing because I said it this week, is you're mad because they're mad. Getting upset that they're upset with you, right? Like that's not your intention, but if you do that, it's like you're not leaving room for them to feel. Let them feel. You've been feeling all of this discomfort and you've been upset for four years and they didn't know it. And now that you're like, I really saw that. Let them feel. It may not take them years, but give them a week, give them some time to like work through this. This hard thing that they just heard. And if the relationship matters, go first, like you can send the text or you can send the invite or you can make the phone call too, that I've said my piece, I'm just going to wait. That's tough sometimes. It is. Like sometimes the most mature thing is the hard thing, which is I'll go first, I'll go first, because this matters to me, but that's tough man. That is tough because you want the other, and that's why we waste a lot. We waste a lot because we're waiting from the other person to do it, to say it, to show up differently, to stop sending the emails you don't want or to figure out that this is the worst time for you to talk or they don't do it because they don't have the issue you do. And so you have to say, here's how I like this to work and you have to do something different in your behavior. And it's hard to hold that other people have their own choices to make, and they get to choose, oh, if that's the case and I don't want to be in this relationship, and that's sad. It's heartbreaking. It's grief. And also, I think we can leave so many relationships with imperfect people that we end up with zero relationships. Yes. Well, everybody's imperfect. Everybody's imperfect. Yeah, everybody's imperfect. So it's kind of like what things do you accept, what things are unacceptable? Like, yeah, and that's saying you have to have a list with some sort of mental ideas around like, okay, these are the things that if people do these things, now if all the people you know are doing these things, I would reassess the things that you put on your object. Exactly right. Well, I have one that like over the years just kind of emerged when I'm speaking at things or doing comedy or whatever. I like to hang out with folks who talk good about their wives in the green room. And there's comics that I hang out with that, man, they tell jokes that make my, I'm like, yeah, right, but they talk real good about their wife. That's kind of people I want to be around. And someone can be clean cut and super this and super that, but they're always bad mouthed. But that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a relationship quality I look for. And I want to surround myself with guys who talk positively about their partners. And that's just kind of that, right? But it's what you're saying is good. Reminder for me at the end of the day, that's my issue. That's my thing that I've put out into the world. And so it's mine to maintain and it's mine to hold on to. not walk around and expect everybody else to, I don't know, I'll start talking good so I can hang out. That's not their job. Yeah, that's your job to curate your community and what that looks like You know, I think there's there's one way to handle boundaries with people We already have relationships with but what you're talking about is in new relationships This is my threshold. Yeah, yeah, and sometimes we'll give people that wiggle room We'll meet them and we're like oh my gosh. She talks talks terribly about his wife and then a month later It's like hey, man. Why are you talking like you you knew it a month ago? Yeah So is this a person that you should have befriended like do you you know So we have to think about that too like how am I contributing to you know my ecosystem? These are old people It's like I planted that seed in my garden. Yeah, that's why wait a minute. You met this person two weeks ago Wow, how'd you pick up that problem? All right, is there I mean you wrote a book on it is there such thing as balance To me, it's it's a myth. It's a it's this it's an illusion and What I found more successful in my house is to not try to establish Some sort of homeostasis, but it's to be honest about the season I'm in I Think there is tell me if I'm wrong. I think there is harmony. I think there is harmony It's a good word. It's a good word. Yes. There is harmony. We can have in our relationships the expectation that every single Relationship we have will be healthy and just at its healthiest state ongoing Not true. Yeah, you know There are gonna be some relationships that are here while the others are here and we have to Recognize that there is an Evan flow You know one of the things that we saw become a really big thing was like codependency like oh no Co-dependency is horrible not for the person receiving that yeah, they love it. Yeah, that's right, and I would I would argue they need it Yeah, yeah, like to have someone like help you and you're like dysfunctional you hold all my emotions for me Oh, yeah, yeah, right like you know, so dysfunctional for one and great for the other Can people show up in every relationship like that? No, I hope that 99% of your other relationships are giving you what you need I think it's problematic when you keep adding more co-dependent relationships, and that's when it becomes like Okay, now we have to make some changes and really have some boundaries and so It's not about everything being perfect, but What do I need to accept here? What is kind of okay here? What do I need to improve here? How do I let more people in? How do I set boundaries here? It's like all these things at once The thing I'm most concerned about now and in writing this book is loneliness because I am now saying Younger people experiencing loneliness. I'm talking about early 20s who have no friends or wiped out There they have no friends and they're like 22 and I'm like, do you know how many front what I was doing at 22? Yeah, so there's madness Yeah, yeah with different my wife mentioned it the other day. She's like None of the stories and we've been together 24 years. She's like I just realized none of your college stories Were we dated for five years? None of those stories was I at those things She's like you had a whole other clan here and it gang here and we had our own thing here and she had her Sorties sisters and all of it I was like yeah, we just there was just groups everywhere Yeah, it was like people to engage with but that's prior to Social media, you know, I think we have social media now and the expectation is to be social and I think it's possible To be social with social media and also I think we do a lot of gawking and not living I think we do a lot of like looking into people lives and and creating moments and not being in the moment I think we do a lot of being distracted and and pulled away from the people in front of us So when someone's talking to us we're like We're not even really in the conversation anymore and when something comes up like oh my gosh I'm going out of town who's gonna watch my dog or I need help with we don't have any real people you get nobody Yeah, we have no one But we have a thousand friends a million followers of this and that and it's like we had to turn a thousand of those followers in the pet sitters Right or three of them at least three. Yeah, you know, it's like girl. Do you got a dog? Yeah, yeah, yeah, can you watch my dog? Can you watch my dog? You know, we're we we don't even have that anymore and so A lot of the conversations like I said with with younger people It's about like how to make friends how to meet people today even with dating apps You have all of these faces the swiping and the this and the hinge and the bumble and the this and that and it's like they can't meet people Some people are meeting people, but you know, it's like all these options and no options. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean mine's in equals one, but my brother-in-law He was a year older than me and my wife's a year younger and after hanging out with him for a year He's like I think you're gonna marry my sister, which I never any guy say ever. They're always opposite like don't you talk to my sister? Right But he introduced us And we took one look at each other had real long hair. I was I was gross You don't want to be a heavy-middle singer so bad and she had just come out of West Texas I mean like braided belt the whole thing and we both looked at each other and we're like no and it wasn't until We had classes together and had mutual friends together and showed up with some of the same stuff that we got to know each other and It's given me my entire life and my fear with those swiping is you take that first glance and it's over I'm onto the next thing on the next thing and by the way my wife and I listen to different music We go to bed at different times. We think different things are funny like everything about Those things that we would check boxes on would be different and we've created this magic little secret world together, right? And that's my fear of those just the you're not getting to know people Yeah, you're not having the conversation of oh, I guess we we understand each other on values Yeah, even if our interests are different. Yeah, right because you can check a value box But what does it really mean if I'm only looking at the box like what are the behaviors of that value? So it's like you're being given all this information But actually not enough and it's you know, it's the same way on you know like I said social media You kind of oh, this is this person's lifestyle. I can't get to know them. This is this but you know like these quick judgments when In meeting people, you know, you you mentioned your neighbor. I don't you know some of the personal inner workings of my neighbor I don't know all I need is you to pull my garbage can up. That's right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what you do Yeah, yeah, but can you pull my garbage can up because we're gonna be on vacation. Yeah, that's right That's right. And they're like yeah, I got you no problem. Yeah, that's that's all I need to know This is a person who can pull the garbage can up and I got you when you go out of town. So I'm here in the rise more and more of that window especially of young 20-somethings and then there's a middle-aged group and there's that aging aging adults group Let's talk about this younger group Man, it's gotten really easy to have what feels like a real conversation with AI Does that trip you out as a therapist or do you think it'll work itself out? I don't know if it will work itself out without intervention. Yeah Because it's it feels like a mind capture in a weird way. It feels like a mind capture in a weird way and it kind of is it resembles like movies we watched in early 2000s about this happening for real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like is it happening? It's and I think with AI it's It's perfect and we need that friction We need to be able to have someone disagree with us challenge our view our way of thinking encourage us to You know do some uncomfortable things to be present with us and AI will not do that a lot of people now ask me like Are you afraid that AI will take the place of therapists and I'm like never? Yeah, because I don't I don't think it's On the spot enough It's not relational gotcha and I think that is still very important I don't care how many conveyance services or whatever we steal as humans thrive in relationship with real things That's I didn't exist But I remember when I was teaching my grad students like you have to know this diagnostic criteria to pass this test You do and you have to know this to fill out your Your forms and you have to do this if you're working in insurance to get reimbursed. You got to know those those codes But if that's what you think therapy is You're going to find yourself out of job Can you sit in Hold space with somebody who's struggling and that's what you got to get good at and that's what you got to honor the people with Is kind of sit in your space and I'll be here with you right and that two or three or five or ten or how big a group is Biological being sitting in the same space. Yeah, I don't know that that ever goes away And I almost I mean I I pointed critical finger at At how like the big umbrella of mental health, but I think we got We got pretty intoxicated with diagnostics and pretty intoxicated with the labels and pretty intoxicated with trying to sound medically as much as possible and almost advocating. Y'all take the labels, almost sit with this hurting person. You know, I'm gonna get real good at bedside manner, right? And I got a buddy who's, um, part of a new med school and I was like, did I, I can already diagnose better than you. I would spend all my energy teaching med students, bedside manner, how to sit with people because they can tell you you got cancer, but it takes somebody's specials to deliver that news to somebody and to their family. Yeah. That's the magic. And a way that is humane. Yeah. You know. It's this very useful and kind. I saw, I saw a video of someone doing AI therapy and the AI, it was almost like the inflection was off, um, the way that it would respond, um, wasn't always there and, and don't get me wrong. I think they're, you know, in terms of like, um, curating emails or, you know, maybe putting to get, there is a place for it, but it's not everywhere. Right. Right. And that's it. That's the thing we have to be mindful of. Like, I was researching, I was, I was in a nerd headspace and I asked, I put the stuff I was digging into. I had my notes and I put it in to one of these platforms and I said, I want you to reply as though you're one of the, the old psychology, like, you know, pillars, right? And then I said, bring somebody else online and bring somebody else online. And there was a dialogue that was going on between me and these three old psychologists. And then I said, Hey, uh, I hear what you all are saying, but what about this? And the response from one of these psychologists was, that's a brilliant question. And it went down, but I, here's the thing. I took my, I was listening to some music, I threw my headphones off and I said, Oh, no. Because just reading it, it felt good. It did. Well, it was very affirming. It wasn't real. It, it wasn't, it is very affirming and it's, I don't know, it shocked me at like, have you seen these videos of people doing diabolical things or putting diabolical things in there, like, Hey, I just cheated on my wife. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I will, you know, kick them some message back like you're a caring person. Yeah. And you're so concerned about their response. I wonder what happened that would lead you to X, I mean, I was trying to wrestle. You'll understand. I was trying to wrestle with a part of CBT and ACT, ACT, Stephen Hayeswork, which I just love. And I was going back and forth. And as I kept going and I was asking this AI platform to help me navigate these things. And as I got to the bottom, I was like, Hey, over the course of this interaction, you've shifted to my bias. Is this one really that wrong? And it said, I mean, it wrote back, you are right. I followed your bias and I shouldn't have done that. That wasn't a true discourse. And I was like, good God, I'm mighty, dude. It just followed this trail that made you feel brilliant and right. And I'm going to take down CBT all across, and I was like, well, actually, there's a lot of science on that one too. So yeah, I, it keeps me up at night and there's nothing, and that's not helpful because I can't do anything about it. I also think that we have an affordability issue and mental health problem is it does serve a need. We have an affordability and access problem major, and if AI is your only tool, I guess the question is, is it the worst tool possible? Well, no, my fear though is it will do what everything else does, which it will, it will accelerate have and have nots. Yes. If you have $300 cash to go sit with the best therapist in town, you're going to get that level of extraordinary care. Yeah. If you have as the free, whatever chat bot download, that's what you're going to use. And man, that, that, that, that the acceleration of the haven't have nots actually scares me more than, than the access excites me, you know what I mean? But, you know, for people in therapy, I do think it's, it can be a good supportive tool, right? Sure. So if I have someone who's like, I'm burnt out, I need to be written out of work for two weeks. Okay. Well, let's come up with a wellness schedule. Yeah. You know, that's something you could slap in there and say, like, yeah, what's a well now? Wake up, stretch. Okay. That's, you know, that's supportive, but if it's you taking the recording of you and your, your sister having an argument and saying, tell me five ways, she's a narcissist. Which happens? Listen, if I hear that word one more time, it happens though, people, I mean, people are using it, and it's, it's being used in that way to support. I'm in a relationship with a narcissist or this person has this, oh yeah, because they said this during the argument and so, you know, I think it's, I think it's going to be like any other technology, like the radio was evil, TV was evil, video games were evil, social media is evil, AI's evil, like, you know, it's a tool. It's a tool. It's a tool. TV humans have to figure out how to live in the world with the tool. Yeah. Yeah. And both the good stuff and the scary stuff, but yeah, I guess my lawnmower in the wrong context is a scary tool. Yeah. And the right context, it's amazing. Yeah. I mean, they can make a whole horror movie about a lawnmower that just, it takes over the name. It takes over. It just mose over the humans and you know, like, yeah, it's, you know, it's a tool. Do you, and again, I say this with all honesty, there's just a few folks who, I feel like in a whole tension and you're one of the most gifted folks I've ever seen do it and just feeling you, you, you in this space is the same. And so I want to thank you for like not keeping your voice behind closed doors in your therapy session and for sharing that with us all as you're gifted at it. I've seen the madness and sitting in the madness and being like, all right, here's I'm going to do. And I don't want to put this on you, tell me if I'm wrong. It's not only, I don't get this sense from you that it's not only here's what I'm going to do, there's a sense of here's who I'm going to be in the middle of all this. And man, that rootedness comes through in such a powerful way. Thank you. It's good. Thanks for being there for us. Thank you.