Off Script and Milieu Take Parallel But Contrasting Paths to Popular Hazy IPAs

This podcast is brought to you by Craft Beer and Bring magazine for those that love to make and drink great beer. To learn more or to subscribe, visit beerandbring.com or find us on social media at Craft Beer Brew. Episode 506, The Craft Beer Bring podcast, I'm Jamie Bogner, and for today's episode we have two guests because sometimes two are better than one. In this case, we started off with an idea with one guest and then it was like, "You know what? This really needs to have the both of you on it." So joining me are Ryan Taylor from Offscript. Welcome, Ryan. You're welcome. Good to see you. When we started talking about this, you're like, "You know who should be on this with me?" Rob Bessett from Millie. Welcome, Rob. Thank you, Jamie. Great to be here. Because now the stories of Offscript and Millie intertwine and obviously Offscript you brew at Millie. It's a very collaborative process behind that. In fact, the hazy IPAs from both of your breweries are now doing extraordinarily well. For us to this recent IPA issue, Millie used punch love scored a 97 with our blind judges and be dope scored a 94. Then recently, Ryan, you guys got written up or you got mentioned on on TAPS social media, which is actually kind of the thing that kicked off a lot of our conversation. Other people pointed that out to me like, "What about this brewery in Colorado?" They wrote, "Is this Colorado brewery the hottest in the world? Did you know Offscript is currently the fourth highest rated producer in the world and is tied for the second highest rated beer maker on the entire platform?" That is kind of some breathless statement there from on TAPS and so naturally not being very far away like, "Let's track this story down." Sadly, you've dropped one spot as I checked in one spot. But being fifth on the platform is also not that bad. You know, untapped ratings. What a bitch. But so through the course of this episode, and obviously, untapped ratings are a snapshot in time and they capture the interest level of a cadre of hardcore beer fans and obviously we understand their data point among many data points out here in the beer world. But having said that like, could be worth a conversation. It could be interesting. I'm curious, Ryan, what you're doing to make IPAs that rate that high, hazy IPAs that rate that high. And Rob, I'm curious how you're making hazy IPAs that are scoring that high with our blind judges. And so through the course of this episode, we're going to go headfirst into hazy IPA. We are going to kind of unwrap that and see what that looks like for both of you all now. What methods and ingredients and processes that you all are using to, because it's a very competitive world, there's a lot of great beer out there. That top of the hazy IPA game is highly competitive. These races are being won by milliseconds, hundreds of a second. 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With a minimalist design durable functionality you can rely on a custom color matching PackTech helps brand stand out while staying sustainable. Trusted by craft brewer's nationwide they offer a smarter sustainable way to carry your beer to learn more visit PackTech-OPI.com that's P-A-K T-E-C-H-OPI.com. I don't know where should we start let's start off with the milieu story and then we'll pick up where the off script story from there Rob why don't you fill us in on your background as a brewer as well as you know the tell us the story of milieu. I would love to. So my beer journey began in Chicago on the south side where I grew up was really lucky to be grown up as a of course 21 year old drinking wonderful beers like a revolution half acre the likes is just really a great scene to be to be in and ultimately with my interest in in the sciences I was just immediately drawn to home brewing so my now mother-in-law bought me my first home brew kit and it's kind of been a vicious cycle ever since so yeah start off in the kitchen in Chicago and then my girlfriend now wife at the time we decided to pick up and move to Colorado and so I could attend Colorado State's fermentation science program and so we got out here in 2017 I started that program right away I also started working at Big Thompson brewery just say at this point that you also have degrees in biology and chemistry yes and you're kind of a nerd. So I was already a nerd prior to beer nerddom so came by it honestly so yeah I was working at Big Thompson while I was in brewing school was fortunate to be able to get through that pretty quickly so after about a year and a half at CSU graduated and then I started working at for boat and brewing also in Loveland so that's where I cut my teeth really getting my hands on to barrels oak and really kind of defining that side of my brewing as well started up a mixed culture beer program which is really where my passion lies and where I kind of everything started so I was really fortunate to do that there and have that opportunity and then 2020 rolled around COVID and decided to move a little bit closer to Denver and took a position at Ursula brewery as their head brewer that is actually the current space where milieu exists so after a few years there the opportunity came up for myself to purchase it so my buddy that I'd been home brewing with a friend from Chicago as well had moved out here around the same time as me we were home brewing every weekend couple brews every weekend even while I was working he was working in brewing school and he decided to hop on board with me and we took over so spent about four months renovating the space I'm giving it a you know throwing some lipstick on the pig and we opened our doors May 2024 so we just celebrated our second anniversary and here we are well well well all right Ryan tell me tell us your story about 15 18 years ago I started brewing with the buddy he actually own like a place to go out here called mile high spirits so he knew how to distill so it was like I've got to give you all my home brew equipment so start out in those quarters kegs with the cut off tops and start of you know doing three four five gallons at a time and then go a little better I went up to fit 10 and then I met this group of friends in 2020 that beer nerds like myself they start tasting my beers like you need to make more so they have they invested in a canning line what can't seem reform me at least and so I started canning beers and then I put out Instagram and Facebook and said hey any of you guys wanted to at least try the beer give me some honest feedback and then that grew from like 20 people to 100 people to 500 to start doing lotteries from my cans so I get some equal representation of the beer out there instead of just people were just asking me for it so went with the lottery system and two cans per person at like two barrels ends up being about 400 cans so at 200 wins at a time and then it's kind of growing from there my last lottery I did was like 1500 people before I started doing more the commercial side so it was just cool to grow Like that organically just people kind of word a mouth and Instagram and social media really helped me grow quite a bit Then I we had if we had friends in common that helped introduce myself in Rob and then now we take us to this next level We're like doing commercial brews did one. He said let's give a shot and worked out really well, and here we are I love this kind of story of Building the brewery starting as a home brewer and just building a following and there are a number of other breweries like vitamin C You know that Up in the Boston area that started the same kind of way a group of home brewing friends who they just brewed so much that they had to They wanted to keep brewing and they wanted to brew so much They just had all this extra beer and they put a cooler out in front and like you know put a sign up when beer was available And it was like take a four-pack drop a four-pack, you know leave them some beer take some beer and like you know, it was Just such a cool kind of communal beautiful thing for the love of the game and And also enabling you to keep doing that kind of experimenting now You know things have had to Change I imagine in pretty significant ways like both positive and negative We should say like there are massive benefits to making beer on a small scale in that you know especially when you're that close to it because you can Pay very close and tight attention and making adjustments and tweaking at that kind of small scale and you know getting a hold of Some hard-to-get ingredients like becomes pretty, you know, you know, it's a much smaller lift for that But there's also a big drawback to making beer at that scale and that oxygen is your enemy Particularly in this style of beer that's so hop forward and wear the smallest things You know, you know affecting a beer can just have major ramifications and having a lot much You know having a commercial brew house at your disposal and also having a larger volume of liquid period Yeah helps solve some of those things. 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Yeah with hazy IPA, you know, it'd be one thing if we were talking about this in 2016 and I I would I mean for us at craft beer and brewing like we started tasting New England IPA is back in late 2014 or early 2015 the framework even then was was pretty rapidly evolving From this kind of heady topper style beer into this treehouse and trillium and you know influenced by hill farmstead Yeah, you know kind of transition, but now when we look at hazy IPA there's generations of brewers that have started brewing with when all that exists and You know and yet at the same time like the standard for softness for Minimizing that kind of herbal and burn character of all of the spectrum of hops that are really out there This full range of New Zealand hops and all of these modern Pacific Northwest hops like it's truly incredible And so like Ryan for you, what are some of your what are your touchstones like when you start thinking about the hazy IPA style? Yeah, yeah, so I I'm following that same line. I fell in love with the hazy IPA's my when I'm to big beers Belgium's a barley wines. I've been wrecked and had my first well works Extra juicy bits like holy crap. This is I'd end like IPA's in before then take my first couple like real traditional IPAs I had called for like I don't know half an ounce of hops. I'm like can I cut that down? So then try and try to get that level of what what what what works is doing just amazed me and then through the years I tried more from across the country and became a little more And we're strict to what I was gonna drink and then it's then I started getting stuff from like tree house Or fight is which is when I'm one of their brews in the world that just set a different to a different level for me And then tries like I want to see if I can make that type of beer and then go from there Rob for you What were some of your touchstones going into this? Yeah, well IPA for me really got started with you know things like too-hearted Daisy cutter beers like that And so you know coming to Colorado It's a very different flavor profile that the IPAs carry so when I first got out here, you know Hazy IPA was really just starting to to blow up and I was fortunate enough to have access to things like the the wild works and I don't think outer range was around it. Oh, they were so outer range and yeah, there's a 10-year anniversary Yeah, so a lot of beers like that and that really kind of drove me to start creating those I was lucky. I got to do a little bit of that a smaller scale at big Thompson and then Really took the reins with the the IPA program at verboten when I was there Brewing a lot of stelfays and then yeah trying to figure out how to scale that to a larger volume, but also yeah coerced those those flavors out Had you know some more limitations there as far as what I could do an experiment with But it really set the foundation that for IPA for me what I wanted to do coming to to Ursula And I'd say that's really the first time I got to you know utilize the the grist. I was really wanting to use The east I really wanted to use and the just the pure volume of hop that I wanted to use So that was a big focus when you were brewing at a brewery someone else owned you didn't have Not quite as much. Yeah, you know, and then you know when your business partner is an accountant You also tend to limit yourself a little bit But I pushed the boundaries when I can so at least there's some give and take you know Give a little there take a little more take a few more here Yeah, and so it was really around the time that I hit my was at Ursula that I started playing around more with the lower color Color profile Introducing Pilsner instead of like a pale malt for your base Really increasing the amount of oats. I think around the time. I was probably around 30 Which at the time was a lot. I'd say now we're probably pushing closer to like the high forties We can pull up some of that data later. Yeah, so we've been drifting that way And then yeah, just the the evolution of different hot products. I think has really been pushing the style forwards It gives us as brewers just Inumerable amounts of tools in our tool belt to be able to come and approach a beer Totally differently even though you know on paper it may look The same or very similar There's a lot you can pull out as far as expression from those different products So that's been the funnest for me. I think both Ryan and I are really drawn to New Zealand hops And the profiles that they provide for Haze IPA specifically. So that's kind of where definitely where we're at now And at least for me sort of the evolution to getting there. Yeah. I'm solely on the NZ side I love all the the new flowable stuff and like the like even like there's like hop chip hop flakes out there Now it's like something new every six months. They're coming up with it's cool to use and might change the expression you're gonna get We'll get into that later on, but you gotta leave hops till later. We want people to keep listening Yeah, so you got to get to leave the the juiciest stuff towards the you know for the end of the episode go tease it but You're also not disproving my pet theory that stays on brewers often brew some of the best Haze IPA You know and I and I this is yet another correlation You know to that one and maybe I maybe we'll find some causality there eventually if I keep digging hard enough, but I think that there is some argument to be made and if you start tracking it back from hill farm stead and tired hands and you know Like there's just this Roon branch and monkey right, you know, like there's just this like interesting correlation between Haze IPA brewing and sazon brewing and they Yeah, and I think there's something there too, but let's before let's talk about malt first because you just teased out out this increasingly paler and paler malt. In a couple weeks ago, on episode 500 of the podcast, we certainly talked about that. That one of the most fascinating things to me in this modern beer era is that no matter what the style of IPA, West Coast or Hazy IPA, everyone is obsessed with pale, and the paler you can get it the better. And so low color malt, and we are hearing it even from the industry, folks coming to us wanting to do things about their new low color malt. And so it's not just like this is not something that's made up. This is a real effect that brewers and consumers are embracing. So let's talk about that in a Hazy IPA context. The Hazy IPA as a style is particularly this high end of Hazy IPA, Ryan, that you operate in that community. There's an obsession with the color. And when I talked to Frank at Noble Savage, he was like, there is an Instagram driven obsession with color. And that very, very pale, milky, like, pale list of yellow colors, it is the thing that you have to seek out. So for you, how do you go about seeking that out? Healthfully, and there's some podcasts out there that we have-- other guys are doing the same thing we're doing, so they give you some ideas. But literally me and Rob almost every two weeks talk about trying to find a newer, lower color malt we can use, I think, wire and extra pale pills to the breeze pills that we use. Right in the Dingman's, they're ultra-chrisner, which we also just used in an XPA with BSG. But I think it's like 1.2 or something super low level bond. So it seems like every single thing is. Yeah, like a 0.1 difference, we'll give it a shot and see how it goes. It really depends what we're doing. But yeah, the extra pale, that's what I'm chasing. Every time, if it's not there, I'm not super happy. I think about it at night. And I was like, what do we do? What do we do wrong? Was it a hop thing? Or is it some type of temperature thing where it was going to be? But yeah, I think about it almost constantly. What are the things that drive it to the wrong color shade quickly that you have become hyper, hyper aware of? We definitely worry about, like, boil time. We've taken that way down most folks are doing. A long time ago, 90 minutes, down to 60 minutes now, 30, and you're seeing some sort of barely touching it to heat. So we definitely worry about that. And how do you-- Where are you generally speaking on that? We're like 30 minutes or less. Yeah, just a real low, low simmer. Even when you've got extra pale pills malt in that. Yep, huh. We haven't had no issues known to off-layers from any of that stuff. Really? Yeah. She's happy with that. No, even with 30 minute boils on pills or malt. Nope. Yeah, and I was at-- before Ryan came in to mill you, making beers, I was still at 90, 75, 60 minute boils for my IPA. So I was definitely a little bit more hesitant at first, but yet, I mean, the proof is in the pudding. There was no DMS for nation as far as we could tell sensory wise and feel like at least his beers have gotten out to pretty white audience. I haven't seen that. Yeah, I know of Gary, but-- They're mine. They're mine. 10 batches going and no issues at all and no off-layers. Again, I've done a lot of collapse at the big places, small places, and some are doing like two minutes, some are doing 10 minutes. So it's really cool to see-- Two-minute boils, 10-minute boils. Barely get touched. So yeah, I had one guy we did a cloud with, it'll will, no boil at all. It was all just pasteurized at the end. And just with these modern malts, I think the precursors are being diminished, the more they're getting into their malting processes and how they're modifying these malts, I think the quality is getting better for sure. And when we look at pills and her and malts, I think we're both looking at it as kind of a blank slate to start these beers at. We're looking for high efficiency, of course, because these beers generally are really inefficient, typically, once we start throwing as many oats in them as we are, but as long as we're getting high efficiency and low color, we're generally happy. And the market tends to be going that way, for sure, at least what malsters are doing. Yeah, more squeezes as much grain as we can there. And we're a small system over there, so we're definitely squeezing every single inch that we can, I'm trying to get the best efficiency. Yeah, it's quite literally hand mashing. Like, oh, it's in from the top sometimes, just trying to get it to squeeze in. That's fun. Yeah, I don't even know what the off the top of my head, what the grist liquor ratios are, but it's not great. They're low. Not great. And this kind of case, you really can't use, like West Coast IPA Brewers can always make things lighter, using adjuncts, and still hit those kinds of fermentation goals, and make up for some of those efficiency things and hitting ABV. But if you start trying to do that in this AZ IPA world, you're going to sacrifice that kind of heavy, murky, protein, kind of haze. And so you certainly don't want to do that either. No, no, we have had-- Both have had success with Brewers Crystals. Yeah, we're not afraid of using that. Yeah, most, I mean, I think, versus Dextrose, there is the degree of unfermentability to the brewery crystal. So for us, at least, it's predictable. It helps drive these beers up a little bit more, with at least our system and what our limitations are. Yeah, I always want to keep that softness. And we get that with the Brewers Crystals instead of the Dextrose, so I'm stick with that one more. Of course, reducing our fan levels, you know? Right. Gotta keep those low. Says the scientist. Ultra low, baseball, high efficiency, because you're still trying to make big, double and triple IPAs often here on a small system. And you're also trying to make as much beer as you can, even though you're going to use hops that are going to absorb and absorb that back. And so it's this constant kind of give and take with what you're going to lose versus trying to push more into that. What's a good efficiency for you on a recipe like this? Probably like 75%. It's probably as high as we've gotten so far. Yeah. That's a good one. 70s about probably where we range at, some between 70 and 75. Yeah, and then there's the whole hop thing. His his partner keeps saying like, "Oh, that's new, most expensive beer you've made." (laughing) Yeah, we're about 70s to 72 for the most part. And yeah, adjunct, we're definitely high in adjunct, but I think we can get into that as far as what that contributes to. Yeah, let's talk about that. So 40, 40-ish percent of oats. Yeah, 40 percent oats usually. What kind of oats? What format do you tend to use them in? I'm so malted. Yeah, mostly malted. I've cut out most of the flake stuff. We'll mix them once in a while. I mean, number one, I think it's oxidation. The less flake, the better. And then I think I just like the milky appearance from the maltose. I get better from the, then using the flaked oats or the flaked wheat even. Yeah. And this is kind of where we differ. I actually, in our milieu bitters, we do use a portion of flaked oats in addition to malted oats. But I think we're both, I mean, maybe I'm speaking for you here, but I think increasing the amount of oats, I like to differentiate the amount, like what oats I'm using, where they're coming from, even, I think that provides something to that defenilla crème kind of like character that we're looking for. So what oats have different kinds of characters in that? Yeah. What do you associate different oats with? Yeah, malted oats, for sure. I think give some of that like really like milky kind of like crème character. Whereas from the flaked, I think I get a little bit more of that sweet kind of oat. Is it change in terms of where the oats are from? Yeah, so like, one thing I like to do is, so I'll like use some simpsons, these are my beers, I'll blend simpsons, RAR, maybe another malted oat format of something pops up that looks interesting with some flaked oats as well. So we've gone away from flaked wheat, we have, but we are still both using a portion of really low color. Yeah, we malt, extra pale. Yeah, low color, it's gonna be yeah. Rob, when you mix malted and flaked oats, is it half and half? Is it more malted than flaked? Or is it just change all the time? That's pretty much changing all the time. Yeah, that's cool, you're making a different beer every single time and it's mixing it up, it's not making the same damn syrup every time, you know? Yeah, and so it's like, maybe for me, it's like I'm trying to find that, maybe the easy button, whatever that proportion is, that difference is. So I'm always changing it and experimenting with that, for sure, 'cause our break on this one's gonna be, how much I have left in this bag versus the next bag I have to open up in order to fill it out. Yeah, right. But I see highly, highly scientific method there. Yeah, you know, you gotta have the artwork in there too. So. Yeah. But yeah, shit as well as another big one for both of us, around eight to 10%. I think we're both around that. There's the signs and influences, it's out there. Which is, that's where we both, I think, came to that through, through Fiden's and Steve's. Like you said, you should have some stock in that, 'cause it's going crazy. So tell me about Chipmaltz. Where do you, what Chipmaltz you prefer these days? We have Root Shootout here, so I use that once more, but best Maltz, yeah, Gembreenis, who else has shit? Uh-huh, you got my first two. Yeah. When you started drawing with Chipmaltz, how did it change the beers? I think good head retention and then the mouth feel. I was using way more than most folks were at the time. I think most folks were like using five. I kicked it up to eight, nine, 10%, and I could tell the difference. difference in terms of the difference. of mouth feel the foam is always really good and there was probably a good attribution to it, but mouth feel changed quite a bit. Yeah, and how would you describe that mouth feel that that chipmult at a higher percentage provides? I don't know. It's hard to explain. I mean, just breath of bats. It's coach a tongue. It helps out that way, I think. Yeah, I would agree. I think the chip specifically does a lot of the heavy lifting as far as like supporting the oat profile. By it has like a little bit higher efficiency as well, which is really nice to be using in these beers, but like Ryan said, the increased head retention is a huge thing. And then yeah, just building that body back behind that oat profile, I think, you know, all these things coming together really is what amalgamates into what we are now looking for is these low cove, low color, milky, creamy bases that we pile a bunch of hops on. Yeah, sure. Sure. Now, the next piece of it is you have all these beautiful malls. You're jamming them in your mash ton, but I imagine because you really want this light and beautiful color, like caring for that work and like a gentle mash, I can just assume it is going to be pretty important for you. Talk about that, you know, how you approach the mash itself on that. Yeah, usually then the traditional 60 minutes, you about 40 minutes, you start doing the vorloff, but then I think it's a big salts, a big thing, I don't know. Our salts are very different and they will turn out very well. Our water profile is definitely a big thing that differs between our beers. Yeah, so let's go to those concessions. St. Brewery different water profiles. Yeah, well, we have our own, so we build back a little bit differently. Yeah. Yeah, how do those different between the two beers? Because it's fascinating. You both make very highly rated hazy IPA, but you approach it from different water perspectives. Yeah, I'm a bit lower actually as far as hardness. I think our profile is a little bit softer. We're similar ratios, you know, I think we're like 2.7 to 3 to 1 chloride to sulfate ratio with our total PPMs of chlorides being around 200 to 250. Whereas yours, I think they're in the mid-3s, at least for chlorides. So not drastically different, but there is still a difference. But yeah, we're definitely still, we always play around with that a little bit too. So where the salts are going in, I tend to put them in later in the process. Just for increased utilization is kind of my theory behind that. Just getting a little bit more when they go into the kettle versus into the mash, but there's reason to do either or. Both turn out good, so it's like we could probably do both be fine. But yeah, I love having those conversation with them because we are different and again, making great beers, so I'm at it. Yeah. What do you think about the larger totals off solids, or larger amounts in yours? What does that achieve? I mean, I think. I do because now you're making a choice to use more when you can also use less. Right. I think of between doing like collabs of the folks and what they're doing. I think I just like the mouth feel that I get a mind that's really soft. Everyone ever, you know, most of my fans are like, they're super happy with it. So I'm just going to keep going. So I guess what I know for now and I'm not going to change it because of on a whim, you know. There's somebody said for yeah, sticking out a territory and, you know, your aesthetic vision and maintaining some consistency around that. I'm worried about what Rob's doing. He's pulled out the brew logs. He's going through the binder to dig up some data here. So we're seeing if I had any water profile exacting numbers, but nothing that's jumping on me right now. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, that goal obviously is softness and, you know, that goal is also not to like heighten too many of the, you know, kind of more stringent characters that come from those hops and, and yet, and keep it like, but also build some of that full mouth feel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Masha, I do want to say, though, it's like we definitely run our mashes pretty slow at minimum 90 minute louder. I think that's a big thing to maintaining just the, where am I looking for it, but the main infrastructure, how intact your proteins are because proteins, I think are really the most important thing. And I think that's why we have so much success with these low boil times and these like simmering boils just because it maintains keeps a lot of these smaller proteins intact. Maybe there isn't quite as much coagulation and allowing those to fall out of solution, allowing those to make their way to the ferment turn. Mm-hmm. You know, however, those do end up behaving with hops, I think definitely plays into this style. Definitely got to talk to them and do it because it saves us from time too. It's kind of hard. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of hard to, I don't think I'll go back now. Nope. These beers, I think I'm getting them out in about five hours, five and a half, it's incredible. So, so run it off and then we're boiling, but at the same time, maybe not boiling for very long. Or some bubbles, that's about it. Sea and bubbles. Yep. Sea and bubbles. And then absolutely no hop material in the kettle. Absolutely no hop material. Until, until, until we're boiling. Is there any any initial bittering with any kind of product at all? Nope. No, neither, yeah, for either of us. I like that way better. I mean, I know like Monkish does it that way. They put a little bit in the beginning and other folks do it, but I like the bitterness we get just from our whirlpool additions. Yeah, we're pretty high, so it helps out on these time lines. So, super short boil and then whirlpool, that's probably longer than your boil. It's close. Yeah, 30, 40 minutes. Yeah, total time with rest, yeah. Yeah, and we are knocking down our kettle, kettle whirlpool, attempts to about 165. So, pretty low. I mean, you boil low in Colorado, so you're boiling right around 200. And then you can cool pool, even cold down there at 165. Yeah, so typically what I'll do is I'll start spinning, right once I flame out, start spinning the whirlpool. I'll actually drop my brewers crystals in at that point. That'll help to start reducing temperature. And then, of course, yeah, recirculating and usually getting down to 10 to about 15 minutes, which I think it's about as quick as we can get. And then, yeah, 15 to 20 minute whirlpool, 15 to 20 minute rest and knock them out. Yeah, I think the more aggressive whirlpool you can get into, the better haze you can get to, because it looks almost like a frigid finish product coming out. So it's, it looks really nice. Yeah, they're incredibly cloudy. The more aggressive the whirlpool, the better the haze. That's where I'm seeing. I would agree. Yeah, we spin as fast as we can. We agitate it at that point as much as we can. I think that's an interesting point. And it tracks, you know, it tracks with, you know, the same, you know, kind of logic behind other half center-fuging, you know, their haze IPAs that knocking out the bigger, you know, part of proteins, knocking that out of solution through the aggressive move leaves the smaller kinds of particles that can actually stay in solution and aren't just going to like drag everything out and clear up a beer. That's thought. Yeah. We don't want them to. Yeah. Yeah. Heavy dry up. I mean, I have your whirlpool helps out quite a bit. We're like two pounds for barrel on the, on the whirlpools. I think it helps out to usually stitch a Nelson something like that. Hellets? Yep. Yep. Yeah, typically just T90s. Really neither of us use a ton of cryo interestingly. No, it's expensive, but it's also, I think, I think the more hops that are in there and the more change you have for the small particulates to stay in there. Yeah. And another thing we both do on our beers is it's kind of like the Kelsey method, you know, dropping in a, a flowable product into the fermenter prior to knockout. Instead, what we're doing is building a loop off the heat acts and then running our first barrel over hot through that, essentially, I'm preloading some cyclases with whatever incognito or dino boost or something like that, running through their hot, letting that mix as much as we can. And I've found at least that's been the best way to utilize that product because once it gets over to the fermenter, it's actually pretty well mixed. I found dropping in from the top. A lot of times it tends to kind of glob up on the cone somewhere. Yeah. You know, ultimately, that's just wasted hop. So, you know, it's out having some beers with Kelsey and then Jason from Ogo Pogo and he has done something similar to that and we've heard about then, but welded in a port. Oh, hell yeah. So they can inline dose, you know, right there, same kind of thing, but it's the same, same kind of effect. We call it the hop dip. Is that what they're calling it? Yeah. I think it's called the hop dip. So we're dipping. You dip. Oh, do you dip? Oh, yes. Well, let's go, let's, you know, so let's talk about that whirlpool. Two pounds per barrel in the whirlpool. T90 hops are there some specific hops that you, you know, because you also mentioned the kind of haze contribution from those hops at that time and that, you know, having more of that hop matter can potentially help generate that kind of haze. Are there specific varieties that you find are going to like goose up that haze at that point of the of the whirlpool or their specific for cops. you just earmark, because these in the world who are going to give you the kind of look that you're looking for. I love Citroe. Yeah. Citroe and Nelson are what I'm going to stick with most, almost every single time. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes Mosaic for us in addition to that, uh, Stratta is another one that I do like kind of at that point in time, but, uh, yeah, that's kind of, that's where we always tend to go at least with the world. Yeah. Oh, wait, I'm going to drop it out. At some point you hear like Stratta and Mosaic drop out a little bit and I don't worry about that being part of it. So I'm like, I'm going to stick with what I've known. What's been working and see where it goes from there. And since this is, you know, it's interesting to think about the hops in this kind of context as building the visual and the texture of the beer. But as anywhere else, the podcast knows, I love talking about the textural component that hops add to beer more than just the flavor and aroma components, you know, because there is that physical effect in here, you are saying that same kind of thing like this. These are generating, you know, a fair amount of that haze and helping form it, even in that. Are there any particular, you know, so anything else to the way that you whirlpool with those that you think creates better haze versus mediocre haze? I don't think so just the aggressiveness of it and not letting up and, I don't know, not doing the rest really. It's really hard and then let it rest and, you know, build a nice cone, let it rip, knock it out. All right. All right. So then what's followed the process along here because, you know, I'm such a linear person this way. You know, so you knock out, sometimes you're running through a heat loop to start adding flowable hop products, you know, even at that point, you both do that. Yep. Yeah. And what in particular in terms of flowables, are you then throwing in at that point of the process? I kind of mix it up. I usually do incognito. He does a good mix. It seems like incognito in some kind of business. Yeah. Yeah. And those are kind of the, at least been my two favorites that I found as far as impact, like something like a, like a Citroa. When you use, like, we're using probably between 250 grams to 500 grams for 10 barrels. And, you know, one, two days into fermentation is just incredible, like Citrus grapefruit, aromatics. I tend to find specifically for those Citra and it persists for sure. And I think you're just starting with a good base. And for us, because we do harvest our yeast, this is a good way to, a, still be able to harvest your yeast, still be able to get some biotransformation, which I do believe is a thing. Um, an old hot topic, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's legitimate and, uh, so, yeah, I think that's kind of definitely a, it's a huge product, I think, for us and getting the beers started early in fermentation with a high level of oil content in the building. Hopefully. Yeah, lays that groundwork for the hops that are going to be added in the dry hops. Is there any difference then between Tyna Boost and incognito for you and what reason you would choose one over the other, or even an aesthetic, you know, it was just kind of pretty fungible for you. Yeah. Pretty fun. Yeah. I mean, sometimes they'll have anything. I don't know. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. New Zealand's hops are expensive. Yeah. Sure. And is it generally always Citra mosaic or are there other kinds of flow bowl, yeah, other varieties that you'll also throw in there? Uh, for Hazy, at least we stick with Citra mosaic, um, for that regard. Um, but when we do West Coast and other beers, uh, West Coast pills, uh, we use a lot of Simco dine boost, uh, Chinook. Uh, I think there's a cascade, but we haven't used it yet, but be thrilled to try that. Yeah. I'd like to get into using some more like the Neck Drawn kind of boosts. Like, it's just costing at that point, uh, but it's, it makes great beer. Sure. Sure. So, uh, you know, you've now then loaded up, uh, hop oils into this wart and you then, uh, get into fermentation here, bio transformation, you just said the B word. So, uh, um, but talk, let's talk about fermentation. You both use the same yeast then, uh, generally just for ease, um, we're not a huge brewery. So, uh, it's a lot easier to keep one yeast or two yeast in house, but, uh, yeast has been interesting. It's been one that we've been playing around with pretty much since, since the start. Yep. I'm a big experimenter. We started off with the A72, uh, because we're going to look at getting juice, which is my one I used from home brewing because I want to taste the same, uh, A38, A38. Yeah. Yeah. We, uh, we looked into that. That was cost prohibitive. Well, it was almost three times what we're going to pay for A72 because we got A72 here. I'm going to pick it up locally. I make it a lot easier. But, uh, we got past a couple of beers and I'm like, I really like that juice character. And Rob's like, all right, let's do, let's, let's bump on these up and see how it goes. That's turned out really well. But then we've also tried a little of some of this, we just did some more dry yeast, uh, doing the cellular science, uh, any, easy. And that first beer we did on that one turned out beautifully milky. It's an amazing beer. So. And then we have a collab in the tank right now that actually has, uh, the Imperial A38 blended with the, uh, dry, many, many cellular science. So, yeah, we've also, as many as 72 is from BSI. Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's the, the microbre, uh, fight in the strain. We'll just call it the fight in the strain. The fight in strain. That's what, that's what's, yeah, lots of home brews go with the same things. Yeah. Yeah. And then tell me about the cellular science, uh, dry yeast. Uh, so I did a collab with the guys over at Lollivh and they used it. And I saw the beer and, uh, the fermentation character was amazing. I'm like, well, I'm, at some point I do want to try this. So I made some beer for this, uh, festival I'm going out to in China is like, I'm going to make a small little one barrel batch, bring my home brew, uh, ferment or into the brewery and we tried it and like, oh my gosh, this is the most beautiful beer we've made so far. And, uh, again, smaller scale. So we'll see if it works out of the bigger scale, but yeah, super exciting, super exciting. What is it? Uh, you keep talking about how the way it looked. I mean, it's, it's looks, I mean, it had peterine in it, so it was kind of cheating. But it looks, it was the most milky beer I've ever made. Uh, so if that, and, you know, combo with the, uh, with the yeast we're using, uh, and the peterine, I don't know, had to try it again. Interesting, interesting. And so I am, I'm just not familiar with this cellular science, where, where's it from? It's super cheap. I got it from more beer, 60 dollars a brick for 500 as far as me. I didn't, I haven't heard about it until you had brought it into the brewery, so, uh, but I'm impressed. Uh, in the past, I haven't been particularly thrilled with dry, new England yeast. Um, so this has definitely been a little bit of a game today, so it's really quick. Um, but you know, it's asking us in two weeks. It could be totally different, so. Yeah. Fair, fair. So then let's, uh, you know, what is that kind of normal with, you know, say your A72, you know, what does that fermentation, you know, look like, um, in terms of primary, and then, uh, what, you know, talk about that process for, you know, we're dry hopping enters into this. So I imagine you're not active fermentation, dry hopping. If you're, you're, as you mentioned, going, you need to keep using this yeast. And so, um, you know, you're going to pull yeast off, uh, at the end of primary, talk to me about the process after that. Yeah. So yeah. Um, um, yeah, definitely pull off the yeast as much we can, uh, and then, uh, throw in the first dry app because they have to do, um, it's because we ran out of room, um, and then, uh, we do a bit of, uh, on at least on mine, we do at least one rouse, uh, a day. We, the first time, first cup batches, I realized it, the home brew batch, we could rouse that thing as much as I want to. I'm not going to get any, you know, any crazy green, this one we did the first cup was like two times a day. It was like, eh, it might be too much. So we figured out one time as it is about perfect, um, putting about, you know, going crazy on the hops were like six pounds per barrel, but the rousing, you're getting, uh, high extraction rate on that. And so we don't have to put as much hops in there as some other folks are doing. But, uh, it seems gone pretty well. Let's temperature look like on the dry app. I'm like 60. I know he's different on his. Yeah. I'm a little bit higher. Uh, we're similar as far as like fermentation profile. Uh, we're both pitch and low, uh, between 0.4 to 0.5 million cells per mil. Um, and then, uh, uh, uh, uh, just a stress that used out, uh, I think pretty much across the board, all of these yeast respond really well to higher stress. Um, I think, you know, just forever reason the, the electrification that takes place from the yeast and fermentation just plays better with these hops that were, we're, cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. That's just coming out and that makes good partner. Yeah. The last stone of the numerator. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's not an impact in, you know, in terms of off flavor or lower attenuation or anything like nothing. I mean, you're going to get lower attenuation. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Not as worried about that piece. Not at all. Yeah. With a 72, at least we found, we were getting through primary four or five days, um, even at that lower pitch rate. Uh, so the beer is ready to harvest yeast and start hopping, uh, five days in it. Yeah. Yep. Uh, a 38, a little bit slower. Um, I think we're probably about eight or nine days right now. Let's know. Yeah. Playing around with that. So I think this mixture we're doing with the, uh, the dry yeast and, uh, the juice will be good, uh, take off a couple of days. Yep. So experimentation. We love it. Yeah. So you then not, you finish your primary fermentation, you, uh, uh, you know, you harvest yeast off of it. Yeah. And then you start dry hopping. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. He's harvesting around 60, I'm harvesting around 65, then our first dry hops are about that point. So a little bit of a difference there, um, then our hopping techniques are a little bit different to on these beers. So we'll talk about that. Yeah. What dry hopping technique? He does most of it because he, I trust him to do it. It's also a little sketchy on my uh. - My fermenters, but it's good to explode. - Yeah, so we're typically splitting into two different dry hops. So off-script beers, typically contact time for dry hop is 24 to 36 hours, with that singular rouse in between. And then definitely shaving in between, for sure, getting whatever vegetable matter we can offer. - Shaving, see, you know the lingo. - We know, Shane. - I love it, thank you, Evan. - I may not look like I shave, but I shave. (laughing) - So yeah, definitely doing that. Two or three stages, just depending on how much we're trying to get in, how quick I can be on top of the fermenter. So that's pretty similar for both of us. I'm typically a little bit longer on my hops. I'm about 36 to 48, but we're also dry hopping slightly lower. We're in about the four and a half to five range from a lot of our beers. So they respond a little bit differently, and then yeah, a couple of rouses for mine, typically. Which is awesome, see, 'cause we put beers on the same on tap at the same time, I think it tastes completely different. You've got the same brewery, different, different boys going about it, it's beautiful. - Yeah, since you're making really the crowd that you serve, Ryan wants double IPAs and triple IPAs and they want to be bold over by hops, you know, 'cause those are the beers that people will trade between themselves and everything else. You know, in terms of that intensity, how through this dry hopping, do you push that intensity to the kind of level that it takes in order to impress today's consumer in that style of IPA? - I think the rouse is a big part of that, 'cause you get better extraction. I know a lot of folks don't rouse at all, but they use half and you use 8, 9, 10 pounds per barrel. I think the yeast we're using, the temperatures we're using to have a big effect on that also. - I mean, I'm just trying to push those boundaries and see what I can do without being too green. Still have a nice drinkable beer. So the first call batches were a little bit green, but we figured that out and now it's, I mean, it's crushable from day one. But you know, you lose some folks when they want that green. So it's kind of a balance, balancing that kind of-- - I love that we call green when it's really this kind of like herbalist tringency. - Oh, you know, are there any other methods that you use then to kind of keep that saturation high, but also keep some of that herbalist tringency lower? Are you, so are using any more flowable products after that initial dosing in? - Yeah, we usually use at least two flowables. I like hopkey for a lot, freestyles. Everything I've used has been really good. Once I use the Clayton Amplifier oil, just for aroma, fun, a 10-brow batch. I'll put two to three of those in there and it smells amazing. Canning days, I mean, I wanna, you know, I go home, I smell my shirt 'cause it smells like cologne, it's beautiful. So I like doing that part. - And it really just primarily works in aroma, not in place. - Yeah, I don't think you can even overdo it. It turns into a different beard. A bunch of folks have told you to use it, try it and they're like, I'm never going back. - It's like you're top-noting your IPAs. - Yep. (laughs) - Exactly. - Fascinating. And so, you know, and then in terms of other kinds of, you know, other hop products in through that dry hop process, anything else that goes in there? - No, I do wanna try those. Like, every time I lay those hop flakes, I can't remember who makes them, but it's not an interesting, just another way of, getting that flavor into the beers. I've used abstracts a couple times, I like 'em both. That's kind of that same thing. You don't get a lot of the flavor, it's all about aroma. But yeah, I'll stick with those on almost every batch. They're at least, everything's getting at least some Keith and some sample fire oil. Hyper boost too, yep, yep. - Let's talk about some hop varieties. You know, now obviously you were laying the base for a lot of this with Citroen Nelson, as you talk about, you know, starting in the whirlpool, going through here, and then you can't keep an infinite supply of some of these flowable hop products. And so having your go-to's, the work the way you expect 'em to, you know, set this base, important stuff. But down here in the dry hop, you can start mixing some things up and playing with some different flavor ideas. And, you know, if you're going to drive consumer interest, especially amongst this crowd, like having things that are different and not just the same Citroen Mosaic, AZ IPA over and over again, like it becomes pretty necessary. So what, you know, in terms of, you know, maybe talk about process first, like, how do you start conceptualizing blends of hops, you know, and, you know, how do you kind of put that research in to understand what some of these other hop varieties are gonna get, you know, 'cause you, they're working on multiple axes now, too, right? You know, you're not just working on flavor and aroma. You're also, you also need them to contribute and not detract from the texture. And so, you know, you're working within a subset of hops in general, and you know, they're gonna be, you know, in a certain kind of school of hops in order to do that. You know, but then from there, how do you start thinking about the way that you're gonna combine hop characters in order to build something that's greater than each individual hop? - Luckily, I mean, I get to try beers from all the, all my beer fans, they send me beer all the time, so it's kind of nice to be able to try a beer from everywhere, and I've tasted a bunch of the hops, so I kind of know what I like, and I know they're getting different hops than I am, 'cause I'm the little guy, and I might as super small contract with freestyle, so I'm like, all right, well, I gotta kind of deal with what the spot market's gonna give me, or Eggers might throw me some stuff once in a while, so it's having good communication with those folks, and they say, let 'em know, it's like, hey, I need some hops, hook me up next to ain't to get it. And then, I mean, I just go with what I feel like by my favorite hops, it's always, almost always gonna be New Zealand hops, unless I'm going with some citra, maybe some superdelic. Neck-drawn is one of my favorite hops right now, Motuika, and then Petri, and again, if Jim fails, is listening over freestyle, I can use some more. (laughing) - Yeah, Jim, this is Petri, yeah, New Zealand Heavy, every time. - What's a typical hop combo in that dry hop look like for you in terms of number of hops? You work in ones, twos, threes, like you work with one hop kind of driving it, and another hop in a smaller percentage is a highlight, or two is kind of highlights. What's a typical, and then what are some of the ends of those ranges, too? - For myself, I mean, I'm usually, I'll let one hop kind of lead. So, and you know, we've put in like maybe three bags of St. Neck-drawn, but then maybe one bag of Nelson, and then one bag of something else, maybe another bag of something else. So, yeah, it kind of depends on what I'm going for, what the last brew was, 'cause I can only do two brews a month on their system, 'cause they got squeezed their beer and two, so kind of-- - Yeah, they should have to squeeze their beer on their own brew system, obviously, I'm gonna squeeze it, yeah. So yeah, I was just trying to figure out, you know, what I did last time, and what folks are asking for, 'cause I'll definitely get requests like, hey, can you try this next time? So, yeah, it's kind of cool to hear that, and then just try something new. - Yeah, how about you Rob? How do you think we'll start thinking about hop blends? - Yeah, so I do generally try to set some sort of parameter. I'm typically a two to three hop blend. Just for me, when I'm doing sensory on them, I find that I'm able to at least dictate a little bit what I'm getting from each thing, which I do like. I have done bigger blends and with success, but for me is like the feedback loop in my head, I can keep it a little bit tighter with a smaller hop blend, like Ryan's-- - You're a scientist, and so like, you're gonna start changing variables, you wanna be able to isolate what some of those changing variables are, more you create at the same time and try to change them, the less you can pick apart the influence of anyone. - Yep, yeah, so definitely putting on some guardrails as far as what my total scope is gonna be. Like Ryan, I'm driving a lot of my main hop character using a New Zealand hop in these hazy beers. And then, you know, kind of like Ryan is saying, like, having that main driver is important, I think, and then that allows you, and what I like to do is then come back and then support that again, that hop specifically with one of the top notes kind of things, and let that really sing on top of everything, and be the lead singer per se. - Sure, beer, sure. - You know, I'm gonna get muddled either. I'm definitely like, I've had beers, there's four or five hops in there, like this is kind of tastes like fruit salad, can't get anything that you're like, if Nelson's your favorite hop, you're like, I can't get that at all. I'm not getting the nectar on, just kind of this muddled effect. Yeah, that's like what Rob thinks about too. - Yeah. - Your audience tends to know which individual hops they particularly respond to, and start go hunting for those, and if they don't, they don't find them, they let you know. - Yeah, like if that's what they could do, and Nelson was like, there's a lot of Nelson in there. - How does that, and you all are small enough that like selection is a pretty minimal thing. Like you're not using giant quantities of this. You know, are there specific qualities in some of these New Zealand varieties that you try to communicate to the hop provider, hop grower, hop broker, in order to get the kind of Nelson that's really gonna work in the contacts here, or the, you know, say the kind of super delic, but you're a kind of nectar on, but that's still evolving quickly. - Yeah, I'm so small, I have no choice at all, so I just got to go into the market. - Yeah. - Yeah, so I've talked to folks over to Eggers, Kim, he's like, I'm gonna get you some good stuff. I just just trusted me. So, and then he offered me like the new moon harvest that they're doing right now, so it's gonna be super cool because you saw it. I don't like that. - New moon harvest. - I had a joke about that before, 'cause I find that when the pinnacle of peacock marketing right now. - I did though, it was a, the other full moon he did back in May. Turned out really good, smelled like curry, put it in there. I'm like, this is the one of the weirder smelling hops, put it in there and it was magic. So came back, hopefully it turns out something. - Magic and what variety was that? - That was the Eggers, I think it was full moon harvest. - Was it Nelson? - Yeah, Nelson was really, really good. So I was surprised, you know, getting something to smell. - It smelled like curry when you rubbed it. - Yep, and then you put it in the beer. I'm like, I'm not sure I should do this, but put it in there already, I already said I would. And man, it was magic. One of my best beers I made. - Well, we'll create the magic. You know, like what was the difference in that Nelson in the finished beer? - I mean, I mean, Eggers is usually pretty dank. This was even danker and the curry dropped out. Thank, thankfully, but also there's still left in it that people really loved. So I don't know, I couldn't tell you. Like it was just, it was probably the best Nelson I've ever used. - That's so interesting. Because-- - About Nelson Bliss. - Well, yeah, come on Jim, give me some more of that. (laughing) - There, yeah, there's some character to other New Zealand hops that I would associate more with that kind of, you know, curry or some of it has come across to me. It's almost peanut butter sometimes. - And ginger crisp is another descriptor. And it's not generally the Nelson variety, but it's kind of fascinating that, you know, that you were getting that kind of context. - I mean, it'd be nice to get some others. I mean, next year I've got a bigger contract with freestyle, hopefully. And hopefully get some really good stuff from there. Just kind of trust that they're gonna send me the best way I can get on them the little guy. But it's like, like we, you know, I have Rob help sitting here in Smelly's hops in me too. And it's like, hey, this is what I'm getting. Also, we have a conversation all the time. It's kind of nice to be able to bounce some stuff off a guy. It's been doing it a lot longer than I have. - Yeah, and as this relationship grows, I imagine we're just gonna be tying this selection process together. Ryan's gonna be coming with us up to Yakima this week and doing selection. So at least for like Citroen hops like that that play a lot in your beer zone. Having nose in there and at Crosby also, yeah. - Yep, hitting Crosby as well. - Yeah. Any other hops that have been on your radar that have made either surprising or unusual or, you know, created ultimately created beers that worked out differently than you expected them to. - Not really. - I was really impressed by cryostrata. So we did a collab with cerebral hopsaturated ale. And that was a pretty big driver in that beer alongside some really killer New Zealand hops. But yeah, I was very impressed with that. In that style, I actually have a beer right now that, to West Coast, that it's sitting on. But yeah, that's one I think I-- - Stratocryo. - Yeah. I think it's just really pulling that candy orange out of there like crazy, so. - I was impressed. - I'm like in Motuika a lot right now. I've used that in a bunch of beers recently. It's just got some great flying character really. Since you can't get peachy green as much as I want, I use that one a lot more because it's just, get some similar characters. So yeah, I'm really impressed with Motuika recently. - Cool, cool. Well, is there anything else to the way that you finish brewing Hazy IPA after this kind of dry hop? Now, you're making beers that are pretty thick and pretty sweet. Obviously, the sweetness isn't the point. And you're also not really isomerizing alpha acids, but there is perceived bitterness from this intense hop load in there as well. Is there a way that you think about that kind of bitterness and how that imparts some balance? And then in terms of finishing the beer and carbonating the beer, is there some way that you also think about how to dial in that kind of carbonic expression so that it supports this silkeness in the body that you're looking for? - Yeah, so with each of our dry hops, we are capping the tank, building up pressure. And then when I shave, or before the next dry hop, I'll, because of my setup, I have to go to atmospheric, but either way, I would have to be reducing some pressure slowly. So in theory, you're maintaining as much volatile aromatics and solution as possible. So we're doing that throughout all of our hopping. We just typically hit that last dry hop with like the boost or the keyf, one of those products just to really get everything in the fermenter. I think the extra volatility in the tank as well that rousing action is helpful for products like that. - Right, right. - So yeah, we're getting as much captured in there with the CO2 as possible. Another thing we're doing is, we're doing a really slow crash on these beers. So typically doing, so I do like a drop down to 58 for a day, 48 for a day, and then I hold it 38 until transferring to bright, then packaging, lower 30s, of course. But yeah, keeping them not as cold as I would, maybe some other beers. And I think that gentle reduction in temperature with shaving is very important specifically to, you know, reducing that astringency polyphenolic content, for sure, of these beers. So it's really, it's a full spectrum thing. Once a hop is in contact with the beer, it's like you have to be very adamant about the timing of that and how long it's gonna be there, how it's gonna be there, what the conditions are, and then when you're getting it off, how are you getting it off, so I'm sure. - Sure, sure. - Then how do you generally carve, say, a double IPA? - So we're like 27, but I pushed his numbers 'cause he, you know, he likes a little bit lower in the car version. - I like 24 in the package, typically. - Which I've seen those folks like this super low carb, 'cause you get kind of a super texture to it. But I think for mine, I like get that effervescence off of there. So I think that's, again, another cool thing about our beers that's different that way, and they both turn out really well using very different carbonation. - Yeah, so we're pushing, yeah, usually like, 262 to 267 is kind of our range on that. And then I think in package we're around average, like 245, 255, so I'm losing too much. - Anything else to this way that you each make slightly different versions of Hazy IPA out of the same brewery, and, you know, but also do it in excellent ways, regardless of the approach. - I think relationships are the biggest things with happy beers, just 'cause it's such an agriculture really tied style. Having those relationships really does make a difference. And, of course, having the abilities select, not everyone can do that. But there's companies you can work with, just having an email conversation with someone and getting some data that you can then work with, and know at least what you like. And I think that's really important. So don't just, if you can, put a little bit more thought and time into it. - It's interesting that I think the way that those relationships work too, because hop growers are also looking for, influential ambassadors for their hops. And if you can make really great beer using their hops, then they'll find ways to make sure that they're giving you the really great versions of theirs, you know? And so it almost, you know, becomes this kind of reinforcing cycle where if you start making really good IPA, then hop growers wanna give you some of their best hops so that you'll continue convincing everyone else that they should also be using these great hops. And so it can be pretty beneficial in that regard and to build those kinds of relationships. - Send them our way to Aurora. - All right, so, you know, I guess Ryan, the big question for me is that you've got a very small production, brewing, you know, two times a month here, and everything that you make pretty much goes immediately, and there's an audience that wants everything, and you're not producing enough beer to even satisfy that demand from folks which is awesome, and it certainly helps, you know, drive this idea of it. You know, but there's also, you know, there's some realities of business too. And, you know, producing that little beer becomes hard to like make a living at over the long run. And certainly there's gonna be things in the future. You know, same thing for you Rob, you guys are of a small brewery out here in Aurora. It's a dense brewing market. You certainly want to, you know, make more beer and of the brewery reach out beyond the confines of Aurora here and be impactful out there. What do you both hope to achieve, you know, in the next few years? And maybe we'll start with you Rob, and then Ryan, you can pick up, you know, 'cause I imagine the off-scripted growth story, you know, there's gonna be more to it. - Oh, so, yeah. - Yeah, for me, I think just continuing to like work on the team and the conversations we're having in our space, I think those are really what are driving us forward and, you know, kind of giving us ideas of where we want to go with the brand in our beers. So, yeah, building a team up around what we have going on in the milieu is really important to us. And that being a focus is huge. And I think that's gonna allow us to grow and to help grow off-script as well. So, yeah, that's really the biggest thing right now - That's just. boots on the ground, get some extra hands and make them beer. Yeah, so Ryan, on the top end of Hazy IPA brewers, some have managed that transition from very small production to larger production and they've done it gracefully. You could say that, you know, fighting still gets great reviews, munkish, obviously great reviews. They're producing significantly more beer and then they once were. And, you know, both have maintained that kind of approach to quality and also their own personality in doing it. You know, what do you see in the next few years for off script? What's your goal for the brand and the beer that you make? All right now. I'm loving the fact that we've got, we're making beer lines, so thinking again in Colorado. Yeah. Draft. Yeah, it's crazy. Can sell out super fast, it's amazing. I actually had some draft, two weeks ago, I was having some draft Chris Johnson from Green Bench was in town and doing some stuff at CSU and stopped by and we had a beer and I'm like, and I saw, oh, he's got, they've got off script and they have lyric both on draft here and like, I apologize to Chris and like, I'm going to drink Hazy IPA, do not judge me on this. I know how that goes, but I'm, you know, I'm a man of people. I got to pay attention to what the kids are drinking these days and, yeah, and anyway, I thought that there was a beauty and a softness and also I love the fact that I could get you hard to get a rare beer on draft at this wonderful beer bar at the same time. Love that place. Yeah. No, that's, that's cool that we have, I've only had, I'm on tap at like four or five places, kind of strategically. I don't want to have too many. I want to be kind of harder to find. That's kind of a lot. I think I want to be able to grow organically. You also want those accounts that are going to treat a well, sell it fast, you know, it's going to be there and it's going to be gone within, you know, a few days so that the beer is never going to get old. The draft lines are always going to be clean and it's going to be, you know, presented to people in the way that you expect it to be. That's a plan. It's nice to be able to tell people to go. It's like, you can be able to try my beer, but also try some of the best beers in Colorado because they, they get the best beers and they treat it well. And as far as I growing, again, organic growth would be awesome. I'm trying to not grow too fast, kind of, I'm confined right now because I've got a full-time job too, which is hard to leave, been out for like 22 years. So it's, those pensions are hard to find anymore. So I have to kind of balance that, the family, the budget, and then brewing space we have available. But yeah, definitely want to keep growing with Rob and said it's great teammate him and Andrew are amazing people, some of us folks in the world. So I'm just, I'm blessed to go to work with them. Same buddy. Great. So much love here, but it's really fun to just see how close and connected that even in this kind of relationship, you know, it's not a contract per se or you're just like emailing your recipe to someone that's making your beer. It's very much a back and forth creative collaboration where you are sharing ideas with each other, tasting each other's beers and, you know, bringing, you know, everything is coming up alongside each other. And you know, that's kind of exactly the way that you want this kind of thing to be. And that is a great place to bring it to a close. Jean Dees new Elite 290 microseries is built for brewers who care about sustainability and performance. Berkeley Yeast's fresh Chico is the yeast behind so many of today's metal-winning IPAs. Pactex handles are made from 100 percent recycled plastic and are fully recyclable. IndieHop's Lorean is found its way into the hearts of logger lovers across the country. The idea 50/50 flex can convert to all fridge, all freezer, or half and half with just the touch of a button, and ADM is passionate about helping you craft your next breakthrough. If you enjoy this episode, go to beerinbring.com, click on that subscribe button and become a subscriber to craft beer and brewing. And if you're not already, why are you not? You can do things like Rob does here and send beer up to the office or stop by while I am sick and trying to socially isolate in the office and remain 30 feet away from me and drop beer off as you did a couple of weeks ago when I was dealing with my sick aftermath of after our breweries of tree. But if you are a all-access subscriber, you can of course send beer to the magazine and we will throw in front of our review panel. And if it's as good as Rob's, you might show up with a 97 for punch love. And I don't know. Maybe we should get some beer from you these days, Ryan. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, people want to learn more about Millie, where do they find your rub? Yeah, most of our stuff is going down on Instagram at Millie FC, F is in Franksees and Charlie. Just to make a clear fermentation company is what that stands for. Or at WWE. Although I want that soccer jersey. Dude, right? That's what you got to make one. We try. People don't get it. I don't know why. It's like football club. Come on, people. All right. Yeah, I get it. Start sprint. Maybe now. Maybe now they'll know. But yeah, or at www.millufc.com. We're visiting us here in Aurora, around the Anchitz Medical Center campus, 2101 North Ursula Street. Come hang out. All right, Ryan. If you want to learn more about Offscript, where do they find you? Instagram at Offscript, Bruin, and then Facebook call us same thing. See, I have pretty much that. Everything I, every release I do is through Instagram or Facebook and I'll let you ahead of time in case you want to come in town. Every release is through Facebook and Instagram. What a world we live in today, but that is the current condition. No, I think it's pretty fantastic. You've connected with an audience of passion to be your fans. And I just want to say for the record, I am such a fan of any people that want to go line up for beer in this day and age, I will never, ever cast aspersions at that. If that excitement level is there, then I am here for it and I want to understand more about it. And we should be fostering that kind of excitement and folks and whether they're lining up every year for Plenty of Younger or they are showing up because you put a post on Instagram about some new can drop and all of a sudden, or do a tap take over here at Mill U and just have lines out the doors for hours straight because people trying to grab beer, hey, man, it's wonderful that we can drive that kind of excitement and I want consumers to be excited about it. And you know, if you can make beer that does that for people, then more power to you and I'm all here for it. Anyway, it's been great talking to you all. Cheers. Thanks. Cheers. This podcast has been brought to you by craft beer and bring magazine for those who love to make and drink great beer. To learn more or to subscribe, visit beerandbring.com or find us on social media @CraftBeerBrew. [Music]