Off Book: Conversations with Casting Directors/ G. Charles Wright / Episode 101

(upbeat music) - Hey, hello. My name is Elizabeth Boykevich. My friends call me EB, and you can call me EB2. I'm so glad you're here. You can find me online at theeb.co. THEEB.co. I spent the last 20 years in show business, casting theater, TV, and film, most recently as the head of casting in talent, while helping build two different TV networks and brands at the Walt Disney Company. I am now a leadership coach and facilitator. I'm a mindfulness guide, and a human being, doing my best to human well each day. I dig all things around growth, creativity, storytelling, and curiosity. I realized that there wasn't a place for casting director conversations available to all, for free to answer actor questions. So here we are. We collected over a hundred questions from actors and will be answering them alongside a different casting colleague each episode. And first up is G, Charles Wright. G is a 23 year veteran of TV casting. He has over 600 episodes of television, still running and syndication and streaming. He's currently casting the NBC comedy series, Lopez versus Lopez. And in addition, he teaches actors how to audition at his private studio since 2002. G's website can be found in the notes section of this podcast. I hope this supports and encourages you on your acting journey. I love you. Keep going. The world needs your voice and creativity. I hope you enjoy. - Thank you so much for hopping on and doing this with me. - Yeah, sure. - This is where just to give you some background. And I'm recording all of this now. My intention is to use this, put it out as a podcast for free, where this came from. I was thinking a couple of weeks ago, what is a unique or gift that can be a service that we can help people. I obviously love conversations. My assistant used to say, actors would come in for general meetings like this and then they'd leave 10 feet tall feeling really encouraged and excited and like they had a path. So I also started thinking about the people I love the most, which are also the other crazy people that do this that are cast directors that work in the side of the business. And I know that there are podcasts that have casting directors, Omis guests. The ones I'm aware of are usually actors at a certain point in their career that don't have the same POV as two casting directors working together, right? And someone like yourself that has worked online who has been in the business for even though you're only 29 years old, 29 years. - Yes. - How many years have you been in the business? - 23. - 23. So someone that has been online, and I come from online casting. I did New York Theater and did some film and TV and then in the movies here and then got into the executive side. So I started thinking, oh, those conversations would be great. I reached out to actor friends, maybe about 10 actor friends and said, if you could ask a casting director any question, what would it be? And they sent me a bunch of questions. And my friend Jason Roguel, who's a fabulous actor, a comedy actor, I love him. He was like, oh my God, I'm going to acting class tonight. I'll ask people. He sent me a huge email that day. So I love it. So just, I wanted to share with you where this came from what the intention is. I'd love to big word, demystify, but just talk a little bit about your relationship to the business. What got you interested in content and TV? They know you're a super fan. The ink on your body tells us so. (laughing) All the ink on your body, the way you dress, everything in your game. Talk a little bit about what got you in the business, what you love about it. To do that for a little bit. And then in the chat, I'll pop in some of these questions and we can talk about our answers. One of the other things I'm hoping this podcast shares and gives actors insight into is there are no hard and fast rules. Your answer to a question is potentially different than Liz Barnes or Breck Greenstein that every office works a little differently. That was a big preamble to say thank you. I'd love to hear how you got started in the business. What kind of kid were you growing up? What were you allowed to watch TV? What were your favorite shows and your path to doing what you do? So I always watched TV. I had what I guess you could describe as uninterested parents, they were busy doing their own stuff and it spent a lot of time with their kids. That worked out really well for me because you could plant me in front of the television and come back five hours later and I would still be in front of the television. So I was an easy kid to monitor in that way. So you're best friend and your babysitter growing? Yes, I often say that the television was my mother and father. I watched TV and mostly what I watched as a little kid was comedy growing up throughout the 1970s. I watched a lot of sitcoms, the reruns it comes from the 50s and 60s that would be on during the daytime. I grew up here in Los Angeles. So we had five local channels. And there was always reruns of something on TV. And then I watched the sitcoms and stuff and I wasn't really into our long dramas. I wasn't that sophisticated as a little child. But all I did was watch TV. I had some friends and I was very creative and I knew I wanted to be an actor. I also love puppets. Tear-brain puppets were a big thing for me. I was very popular kid. And then high school starts for me in 1980 and college ends for me in 1989. So through the 80s, I really got into performing and that was where I started doing a lot of theater in high school. I did some theater in college, but I also competed in public speaking. I was on the speech of debate team. So the 80s for me are just performing. The 70s are performers on television. The 80s are me performing and going out to performances. So that's how that goes for me. By the 90s, I am performing. I was in a couple of bands and I also did sketch and I did a lot of improv. And through my improv and sketch writing classes, I met a performer named Cecilie Adams who is one of Don Adams' daughters, Don Adams of Guest Mark. So, especially when I were in a sketch writing class at the Acme comedy theater with Will Forte. And through that class, we became friends. And then I discovered that she was also in addition to being an actor and she was a member of the company at the Acme theater. She was also casting director and then she taught an audition class. So I started taking that audition class with her in the late 90s. And I eventually started running the class for her administrative class. We're assigning the people up, taking care of all the administrative stuff for her on that class. So while all of this is happening, I worked in the tech industry and I'd worked for a couple of companies. And by 1999, I was a business development software company that was pretty small, but that had been growing from two guys in an apartment that had grown to maybe a hundred employees. And they sold it to a big corporation in 1999, and it triggered a stock plan that I was a partner. And it wasn't, I'd only been with this company for two and a half years. So it wasn't a huge amount of money, but it was enough money for me to pay up all the credit card debt that I had amassed in the early 90s when I was trying to be an actor and networking. - Yeah. It was enough money for me to just get the reset button. And I thought, I really hate my job. This is a chance for me to do something else. - I grew up here. - How old, Ben? - Yeah, it was early 30s. I was maybe, I think it was just before I turned 33. This all happens. - You're Jesus here. - By Jesus here. So I went to Sessley and I said, "Hey, I have this chance to start over." And I've always enjoyed writing and most of the jobs that I've gotten have been because of my writing. I feel like I could be a good TV writer. Do you think I could come an intern for free and you're in your casting office and use that as a way to maybe meet some writers' assistants and writers on the shows that you work on, which at the time were third-rack from the sun. And second season of that 70 show. And fifth season of third-rack from the sun. So she said, "Yeah, I came in and there were a bunch of other actors from our class who intern in the casting office and these people would typically show up for about two or three hours a week." And they were really just there whenever they were having sessions. - Yeah. - And they would help to sign actors in, make sure actors knew where to go, bring actors into the room, all that. - And for whoever is listening to this. So 70 show would have been on Fox at the time. Third-rack. - Who's on NBC. - NBC. These were two very successful sitcoms. The orders were 20 and above episodes. - Yeah, that's right. - And it was also a period of time when it was still physical hard headshots that printed out headshot and it's the resume. and you would put out a breakdown looking for a role and they would be delivered, often hand delivered. So you'd get these big boxes, mailboxes from the post office, filled envelope. So you're bringing me back because I remember too, one of the interns jobs would be opening every envelope. Yeah. I worked in an office in New York and we would do all of the agencies alphabetically and this is also casting directors are witches and wizards that are able to hold information in their head. The casting director would say, "Go get me this head shot and you would know in your head they're represented by so." And this is the agency's name. Let me alphabetically go look at Embrose Immortimer. Remember them, like back in New York, that so it was ripped by there. Now we're on digital, but I just wanted to, taking us back on memory lane of all of the paperwork and really physical labor that came along with sorting actors and putting out appointments and auditions. Yeah, the casting office really had a hard time existing without interns. A lot of it was spent opening all those envelopes every day and then of course everything was telephone. So all of the agents would call on all this stuff. So most of these interns that came in were actors and they would really just be there for the sessions. They didn't seem to, you could get them to open envelopes but anyway, that was about it. I came in with actual work experience having worked for actual corporations and offices and years before that had waited tables. So I was really good at multitasking and I knew that would seem like simple ins and outs of working in an office when I like at the time running a fax machine or a printer or a copier or answering a phone properly and knowing how to put someone home. Things that would seem simple to us, but if you haven't done that stuff, you would be very intimidated by it. I was really into this. I would show up, they would have me come in at two o'clock every afternoon and stay until four or five. I lived in Santa Monica and the job was over in Studio City at the Radburn offices. So leaving at five was not a great deal for me anyway. I quickly discovered that the reason they had me come in at two was because they took lunch from one to two and then they would often do all their sessions after two o'clock. - Yeah. - We're working for a carcy-warner productions which was the last of the independent TV production studios. They had third rock and 70 show. One day, somehow I found out that in the carcy-warner building itself, which we were not in, we were on the other side of the lot from it, in the carcy-warner building, they had their own employee kitchen and they served lunch free from one to two. - A good old day. - Yeah. So I learned that. I started showing up at noon. - Sure. - And then I would put in an hour of work and then I would go eat. - I would eat an hour of eating. - I would put in an hour of eating and then we'd go out of the day. And so one day, I met the employee kitchen and the chef of this carcy-warner kitchen by now it knows me and everybody knows me 'cause I'm becoming an everyday. And he says, "Hey, why don't we ever see you at breakfast? How come you're only here at lunch?" And I said, "There's free breakfast." (laughs) And he says, "Yeah." So then I start coming in early and I start being the first one into the office. And I get free breakfast. I don't have a job, right? I'm living off a small amount of money and the generosity of my roommate at the time who made a lot of my. And I was selling all of my collectibles on eBay. So everything you see now are things that I have purchased postcasting. So a free food was very key to me. Then another time comes by and I'm there at lunch and the chef, you gotta make sure you stop into night for dinner. We have this special, and I'm like, there's dinner? So yeah, we do that at six. I'm a perfect kid. Your casting career is all because you wanted free meals. Yeah, it's all because I wanted free meals and not keep in mind I was doing this thinking that I wanted to be a writer. So I got to peek in on some writers rooms and how that all worked when one is just a writer. You are spent a lot of time by yourself. Then I would actually these TV writers spend an enormous amount of time in a room with other TV writers at that shot my anxiety level up. So much, I thought it seemed like such a horrible way for me who had very little self esteem to operate. And then I started talking to the writer's assistants and what I got from the writer's assistants is that they were all faster typists than I was and they all hated their job. So this is all I know. This is all I know at this point. And one of that is happening and I have become to make, I've begun to make myself indispensable as a real assistant, albeit unpaid in the casting office. I discovered that I really enjoyed casting and I was really passionate about it. I thought about it all the time. I loved getting up every morning and going to work, which was a whole new experience for me where every job I'd ever had, the hardest part of it was just getting up in the morning to go to it. I felt like it was the job I'd been preparing for my entire life, like watching, doing nothing but watching TV for a decade, doing nothing but performing for a decade and a half. And then working in offices where I hit, at a multitask, I learned how to talk to people on the phone, how to conduct myself professionally with other people of all sorts of different financial ranges and such. - Yes. - It felt like the job I'd been preparing for my whole life and I didn't know it. Sessily was at the time was working for what had just become Lieberman, patent casting and previously it had been Lieberman, first-feld casting. It was Mark Hershfeld and Meg Lieberman. By the biggest sitcom casting house in Los Angeles at the time, Mark Hershfeld had left to run NBC casting, studio and network and Camille Patton had taken over as the partner. And since we were working on "Carsie Werner" shows, which was such a big studio at the time, we were part of a satellite office for Lieberman Patton that was at Ratford where we just were done "Carsie Werner" shows. And this was a true story. One night, I had a dream that Sessily and I were standing at the copier and she told me she was going to quit and she wanted to take me with her. The very next day, we were standing at the copier - Wow. - Sessily told me she was going to quit and asked if I would come with her. And that's how it all went. She left Lieberman, patent casting and they kept third-rot from the sun and they let us take that 70 show, which had just finished season two and wasn't the big hit yet. - Yeah. - That it would become in season three. We took that 70 show, season three, and it started getting picked up two seasons at a time. Anyway, that was the beginning of it for me. I came in and I'm doing associate work before I really knew what I was doing. It was a big undertaking. I worked with Sessily then from, we started season three of 70 show in 2000. Sessily died from cancer in 2004. It's a very short window and I know her for many years before I started working with her. Anyway, I was also 33 at this time and I really had her just keep it on me. I said, listen, I'm 10 years older than everybody else that's starting out and I need to play fast track. - It's so interesting to how life unfolds. All of these things are converged. Personal experience, how you grew up, what you loved, how you moved in the world, and the business and office experience that all of that came and that it's right place, right time, but you also were working your ass off. You really wanted to do it. You said yes to things that maybe you weren't quite prepared for yet on paper, but you absolutely were. You were and Sessily Adams had fabulous reputation as being a really kind and smart and talented casting director and a really wonderful person and Sessily saw that in you too. So a lot of it was just showing up. It ran up or behind the camera, showing up, being nice to work with, a decent person and saying, okay, I'll try it. - When I was first starting out that worked for a video game company for five years and there were a lot of things I was taught would be the first one in, be the last one out, do the work and the money will follow. These were things that because I hated my job, I really didn't pay any attention to, but when I landed in this job, I was like, oh yeah, all those things. I was at a place in 1999, when I got that payout, I had been through, at that point, I'd been through about eight years of therapy and I finally felt like I was in a place where I could take a chance on me. I had never taken a chance on me. Every decision I had made up to then had been me trying to second guess what would make my parents proud of me. - Yep. - And that kept landing me in things that I didn't enjoy. - Yes. - I was offered a PA job at FX. Right, I'm called. And Fets had just started at the time, but a friend of mine from college that I competed against on the speech and debate team had landed a job at FX. And she called me and asked me if I wanted to come and join their page program. And at the time I was living back in Huntington Beach and I had a really shitty car. And I knew that I couldn't take that job because it was gonna require me to drive to LA everyday, but then it was also gonna require me to drive all over town everyday because that's back when PAs drove all over town. - Yeah, getting stuff. - Yes, this is also the point in the business too, as you shared, you started as an intern. So did a lot of casting directors and executives or our generation did. That's how you got into it because it's not like you can go to school to learn casting. A lot of it is experienced now, interns are no longer allowed. It can no longer use that cheap labor, but same thing with PAs. You were in your car, you drive everywhere, you would do everything. You got a lot of experience, but the access can keep some people out of the business too. If you don't have a car, if you don't have a tiny bit of stock money, if you don't have some of those things lined up, it can be really hard. - Yeah, and that had been offered me in '89. And so then it's 10 years of me thinking about what if when this etched opportunity aligns and arrives for me. And I was like, this time I'm gonna take an opportunity and make it happen for myself. And I'm glad I did. I was also older, which helped me. Anyway, that's how I got into casting. I did not know that writers make about 20 times more money. (laughing) And I did the rituals. - And the rituals. - And residuals. So had I known any of that? I definitely would have put the hammer down and switched gears. - You would have offered through a writer's room. - You would have been through a writer's room. - I would have said it. But the truth is I really love casting. And I do love it. And so I just stayed with it and stayed with it. And so here I am, here I am to that. - And here you are. - When Sessley passed away, I also took over for coaching business. All of her coaching clients had started coming to me when she was sick and was unable to coach anymore. I started teaching the class again that she had stopped teaching by that point. And so not only did I kind of inherit casting from her, but I also inherited the audition technique workshop from her and both have been great ways for me to work at things I'm passionate about. - Yeah. What do you love about it, Jay? - I love a lot of things about it. I do love teaching because I was older when I got into casting. I had had a lot of years prior to that where I felt like I was floundering all the time and always trying to figure out what I should be doing and not having the mental capacity to deal with it. I was just so sure that everything I did was garbage that it was really hard for me. And I love being in a position now to maybe share some of those examples with people who I feel in the same situation. - Yeah. - And to help people figure out where to go and what to do. I felt like it took me a long time to figure that out. And I like sharing that. I do like that. I like teaching. I like mentoring. And as I get older and I have more experience, I feel like it's even more important. - I love that because it really is about whether you're in front of or behind the camera. It's about what you're bringing the outside work but it's also so much about your inside work. Your inside game, how you're talking to yourself. If you can be with yourself in uncomfortable moments and disappointment and things that are feel scary and you need to have courage. And I love that you just highlighted that because that's a really big deal. - In my class we share. So every week after class, I ask everybody like what's been going on this week. And I want them to talk about the auditions they've had. I want them to talk about the jobs that they've booked. I want them to talk about anything they're doing performance-wise, all of this stuff. And a lot of them won't bring it up initially because they think, oh, this isn't anything. Oh, I just had an audition. I don't want to mention that. And I encourage them to talk about it. One of the things I noticed when I got people talking is some actors would say, hey, I just, I've got an audition tomorrow for such and such. And a lot of the actors in class would get real excited for them and the thing that a lot of actors would say to the actor who had the audition coming up is they would say, go, look it, go, look it. And I got people to change their perspective on that. Yeah. You can't make booking the job, the goal of the audition opportunity. Yeah. Most of the time you're not going to book it. So you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. The goal isn't to book the job. The goal is to do a good job at the audition. Yeah. The more you do that, the more you get known as a good auditioner. The more you get known as a good auditioner, the more auditions you end up getting. The more auditions get, I encourage people to stop thinking about booking as being the pass or fail of your-- Right. And the only marker of success. And the only marker-- That booking the job is not the marker, the only marker of a successful audition. Yeah. And like you said, I remember when I was doing online, before I was at Disney, I was working, I worked years with Roger Musenden. And there were a select amount of actors that would come in. And just murder the audition every single time. Always do a good job. And those were the people that, of course, would think of first, even if they weren't exactly what the breakdown said. But we knew they were going to come in. They were going to kill it. They could maybe change some minds. And as casting directors, we want you to do a good job that makes us look good as well, too. We want you to have the exposure. And I've seen it. I'm sure you have where you bring someone in. They're amazing. But the director, the producer, whoever is hiring, going not for this, but I either A1A writes something different for them, or we have to find something else for them. I did, for years, worked as an associate on Adam Sandler movies, right? When Sandler was producing all of his friends' movies and his own movies. And that would happen often. Someone would come in and they would be so delightful and so funny that they'd go, who is that person that auditioned for something two months ago. We want to find them something here. That happens all the time. It used to happen at 70s show a lot, where people came in and it was the same thing. And then they would end up getting a role that recurred that they wrote for. They wrote with that person in mind. They had coming up. Yes. No. You hired a friend of mine on that 70s show. And maybe a year or two ago, he was telling me about another casting office that was bringing him in all the time for sort of the procedural type show. He would be in like every week or every other week. He was getting so pissed off that he wasn't booking. And his attitude was getting sour. And I was like, no, shift this. The good news is the casting director knows you're doing good job and you're about to book. They really believe in you. So continue to go in on those auditions and feel good about it that you have a fan. Your job is to make fans. Yeah. I remember one actress who came in with it, Sessley and I brought in a bunch. And then after Sessley passed away, I was still bringing her in. And she came in. I think maybe the second, the last season of the show. And I brought her in for the audition. And she said, gosh, you're so kind to keep bringing me back, even though I don't book. I feel so bad. It's so nice of you to bring me in. And I said, listen, this isn't a charity organization. I'm not looking to build up yourself worth here by giving you an audition. I've written you in because I know you're a good actor and you audition well. And one of these days, you're going to land something. And eventually she did land something. Yeah. But yeah, it's when you're outside of it as an actor, it's really easy to get caught up in only thinking about yourself and not the picture of it. And you're in a vacuum. But you're a bust your ass, go in an audition, maybe not hear something or you're on hold and you don't get the job. And so it takes a really strong mental game to keep yourself, how do I want to say, to keep yourself on track? And to say, my job is auditioning. That's my job. My job is to audition. It's not to book the job. It's to go and do a great job, make new fans, meet new people, take away any learnings or adjustments I can take and keep going. Yeah. I talked to a lot of people now who equate self taping to auditioning in a vacuum. And they really don't like it. And my response to that always is auditioning was always in a vacuum. Even when you went into audition in person and you'd walk into the room, you're still in a vacuum. People lament that they're not getting the redirects or they're not chat with people. And I said, yeah, but most of the time when you would go into an in-person audition, you'd do it once, maybe twice. They say, thank you. That was great. And then you leave and you never hear anything again about it. So what's the real difference, other than you saved a couple hours if you're day traveling to the-- And gas money and try quite a place to part and sitting in an office and awaiting them with a bunch of other actors who oftentimes will be trying to tear each other down. To me, self taping auditions, I feel are liberating because you can do it in the comfort and privacy of your own home in a fraction of the time and then get on with your life. an interesting perspective and I see both sides. I think, look, as actors, you want to perform, that's your gift, that's your creativity. And that's what can be hard when you're not booking. All the finances and everything aside is you're not sharing your gift. I think that's also why it's important for actors to have other creative outlets or something else going on another way that you're nurturing yourself or sharing yourself and expressing yourself outside of just booking the job. And not just actors, we all should have that. We're alting ourselves that time to nurture that part of ourselves. Listen, I was one of the casting people that went it, when it started going to just tape, I preferred having the person in the room. Of course, there's a real energetic exchange, but what you're highlighting too is it's different now. So changing your mental game around it, it bired an adjustment in the process. It also requires the actor to adjust their thinking in the way they're holding it and talking to themselves about it. Yeah. In about 10 years ago, everything started going on tape anyway. So the difference was you might come into my office, I'm going to put you on tape. But then I'm going to show my producers, my producers are only going to watch tape. The difference is that I have actually taped most of these people myself. Yeah. And what I discovered early on in that was that I would put people on tape and be like, oh, this person's great. Let's make sure we send that tape. Oh, this person did. And then we would send those tapes. And oftentimes the producers were just seeing the performance, but not getting any of the dynamics of the actor before or after the tape in the room. We're seeing the audition differently than I was. And so I realized pretty quick that as I mark people in the room that I want to put on whose tape I want to send, I mark those. And then I go back and I rewatch all of those tapes first. I might have 10 people from a session of a couple of pre reads. I might have 10 people that I like. So I asked them to put those 10 people on a link. And then I sit and watch just the tape performances. And I'd be like, Oh, wow, this person will look, I really fell in love with in the room. Just doesn't quite have it. The way that it's not translating on camera in the same way. I've said this before to some of my students, there are great auditioners who are just okay actors. And there are great actors who are just okay auditioners. And so what the self taping has done is it's really changed the dynamic of I think of who's booking more now because the performance is all we see. We don't get any of the other the other stuff. It's interesting. Some actors would come and then lose the job if they didn't have the room, right? But then there were people that that would push the audition over the edge was they were just like so charming and charismatic and wonderful. That the person that was hiring wanted to take the leap and try them. It back before it was the onus was on the actor to self tape. They would come in tape for you. You would see them in person. And then you would decide and make a smaller group and send that tape to your producers or your director. And that would happen. Now everything is being sent out. You're putting the times out. Every actor is sending in an audition tape. Yeah. And you and your office then watch the tapes and do your selects and send them to the producers. That how it works. Yeah. Okay. So that brings me to some of our questions. Do you ever watch an entire self tape? Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. You have to if I especially if I like them. If you've caught me in the first, I don't know, 15 seconds of your self tape. I'm not I'm not going to stop watching it. Say there's one to send. I have to watch the whole thing. Yeah. Yes. Of course. But because everything is on self tape and I'm now able to see far more auditions for a role than I would be if I had people scheduled to come into a row. I do send out more self tape auditions than I would have set out in person pre-read appointments. But I definitely do not watch every self tape all the way through because of someone's just off. In the first 15 seconds, I know it. And then I'm on to the next one. Everything comes to me through breakdown express. People have uploaded their tapes into the eco cast system, which connects them to their headshot, their resume on ABC lettering hierarchy and a section for me to write notes. And I can write notes about what I thought. And then I can hit a B or C. A for me is the people I most interested in. B's are people that I was interested in and C's for me are people that miss the mark. And I go through all those and then I go back through the A's again. And I watch my A's again to see which ones really stand out the most. I think it's important that actors here because this is one of the questions that came to if you are getting an audition, a self tape audition from G Charles Wright's office, it is being watched. Yeah. It is being watched. Yes. I've heard tale of some offices not being an integrity and sending out just millions of requests that then are perhaps not being watched. I don't think it happens often. It's not going to happen in I think the best offices that are working. Hopefully not, but it is important to know that you are pressing play. You were taking a look and you were assessing and knowing. Yes. This person is right for this. I'm going to send them or not right for this, but maybe for something else. So this is the next question was when watching audition tapes, how quickly do you know if the actor is right or not right for the role? It depends. Yeah. It depends on the role. It depends on how much the writers have told me about the role. Sometimes I'm looking for a lot of real specifics. Other times I'm looking for fun character types. They could be a large range of age, a large range of body size and types, a large range of ethnicity types. Then you're just looking for people who do something that feels organic to the scene and that people that don't look like the other people that are already in the scene, but stuff like that. Yeah. I was talking about this with a girlfriend who's a casting director yesterday on a walk and she's married to an actor. So she has this conversation with him all the time. Why nine page scenes for pre-read self-tapes, especially if there's a good chance CDs are probably not going to watch the whole tape. And look, I think if you're getting an overnight put this on tape audition and the casting director is sending you a 13 page scene, screw that casting director. That is not cool. Can you talk to that? What do you like to do? How many pages? And if there are a lot of pages, why? Yeah. So if there are a lot of pages, then that's a big role. Oftentimes 13 page sides are not really 13 pages of sides that you perform. A lot of time 13 page sides are maybe two scenes. It's maybe about five pages of performance and a lot of pages of FYI that you just have to read through. So people can be they go, I've got this nine page audition. I don't know. And then I'll look at it when I'm coaching them and I'll be like, it's really only about four pages. You just have to read through nine pages because there's FYI here. And if it's if you're auditioning for nine or 13 pages, you're probably auditioning for a series regular role or a very large guest star role. And when you get those auditions, the people you're up against are successful working actors who who work all the time. Yeah. So a lot of it is really just you have to be doing this stuff all the time. The more you prepare auditions, if it's actual auditions or if you're in an audition technique class, the more you're doing this every week, easier it becomes for you to prepare that stuff. Yes. And actor friend sent me a question. I don't have it in front of me. He's a young actor. He's greener in his career. He's booked a couple things. But his question was something to the tune G of if you're watching an actor's audition and their tone is completely wrong for the show, will you give them another shot? And I thought when I read it, listen, there is no excuse. If it's a pilot, you're not going to know. If it's a show you haven't seen, but by and large, there is no excuse to not have done research on something you're auditioning for. You're going to be able to find a YouTube link, a TikTok every network has a website. You can watch a trailer. You can get a sense of the tone. If you don't know the show, get a sense of the tone. If there is not a trailer available, take a look at who the director is, take a look at who the writer is, look up on their IMDB page, what they've done. You can get a sense of maybe what the colors are and what the mood is. If there's tons and tons of pages, if the actor knows it more of a pre-read, pre-screening, and there's a million pages, and you have a bunch of auditions and you can't do it. This is my philosophy and this is my advice. I'd love to hear your advice. I would say, pick the two scenes that you feel like you can kill and kill those, send those in, provided that it's not something that's being hired in two days, and you did a good job, then they'll come back to you. You can do the additional scenes, but give them the best taste. I rather see two great scenes, then four half-ass ones, and again, that's if they have time. It's not something that's working in two days. What is your philosophy about that? When I was cast in my most recent pilot that I'm now doing the series on, when we were doing the pilot, there were a lot of those 10, 13 pages, and for self-taves, I was requesting people to do two specific scenes. I would actually pick the scenes for them and say, on your self-tap, do these scenes. Then I would compile the self-taves that I like, send those to the producers, because the truth is that producers don't want to want to sit through. There's a yes. Yes. Yes. So they would see the ones that they liked. And then we would do a Zoom callback with everybody on Zoom, including the producers. And then I would tell the actor, for the Zoom callback, have all of the scenes prepared. And then I would also say, we will be doing scene 1 and scene 3. But have all the scenes prepared in case producers want to see you do more. And that's how we did it. And then they would do those first two scenes of the producers' work feeling it. We would excuse them from the session. And if the producers like what they saw from those first two scenes, they'd continue on. And that's the process. Now, of course, when you're casting guest stars and co-stars on the series, there is far less time to prepare. When you're casting a pilot, you've got upwards of two to three months. The producers want to be in the room and seeing a lot of people because at that point when you're casting a pilot, your writer during the casting period doesn't have anything else they're doing. Yeah, what they're doing is being available for casting. But then once the show starts, that showrunner is busy. And then when the episodes pop up, I usually have about three days to cast a role. But also with guest star and co-star stuff on sitcoms, you're usually not dealing with 10 or 13 pages of sides. If you get five pages on a sitcom, that's a lot. You're reminding me, this is like a great rule for life and a very difficult one, a very challenging one. Same thing as an auditioning actor. Don't take anything personally. Do your best to not read into it, to not take it personally. This is very hard to do. When you were just sharing that story I was reminded of, was working on big studio movies years ago, we'd have three scenes for, let's say, the female lead. And after the first day or two, once we've heard it, the director would have heard it a couple times, I would be the one. I'd be the associate going out and saying, hey, we're not going to do the first scene. We're only going to do the second or third, because what we knew in the room in real time was either the role wasn't working, the dialogue wasn't working, and it was not doing any actors any favors. Sometimes when you hear something a bunch of times and someone can't make it funny, or someone is not moving you, that's the fault of the writing, not of the actor. But I would feel terrible having to give this news, thinking about these actresses that had just coached on this or had worked, worked with their friends, got ready, made themself beautiful, came in, and then I'm like, oh yeah, we're not going to go do those four pages that you just did. But there's always a reason behind something. I would have actor friends and call me and say, they didn't really like me, or they didn't even give me a shot because they told me I wasn't doing the first scene. There's so many other reasons besides they don't like you. And by the way, it usually has nothing to do with you. It's about what they've learned in the process or what they've learned about the script, trying not to take those things personally. When I was overseeing casting for a network where actors would come in, it was rare, but someone would come in for the pilot, do the audition ever seen once, and it was so perfect that it was clearly that person. But then they would sit in the waiting room when you test an actor, you don't release all of them. If you're doing an in-person test until, if you need to do mix and matches, until you're done, then everyone can leave at the same time. So someone would come in and kill it. Another actor would come in and do one scene great, maybe not have it so much on the other one, or someone would come in and flub. But if you're the actor in the room, and all you're seeing is then perhaps the director going out, pulling an actor aside, giving them an adjustment, the one who killed it who's gonna get the role in their head is saying, oh shit. Like they clearly love that person and not me. And before we had picked up the actor, I get a call from the agent of, you didn't like so and so. The process is the process, just like life, we cannot predict. There are no rules of how things unfold or happen. Your job is to audition. - Yeah, that's exactly it. - And to take care of yourself the best that you can, this isn't especially maddening, and it can be a tough process when you don't know everything that's going on behind closed doors, because that's not the purview you have. It's easy to spin out about stuff, not the best use of your energy. This is not the easy work, but what you can do to keep your mind straight and to feed yourself and nurture yourself and talk nicely to yourself, do it, figure out what those things are and do it. - Yeah, there are three actors that I will name right now that I'm always so enamored by just as an artist, Drew Drogie, Mitch Silva and Sam Pancake. And these guys all work a lot. In addition to working a lot in TV and film, these guys almost every day of their lives are performing elsewhere. They're performing on stage. They're creating their own sketch shows. They're constantly creating and putting stuff up on stage. They're not getting around for an audition to allow them to act. A lot of actors do wait around for auditions to give them an opportunity to perform. You gotta get up and you gotta do this stuff almost daily and live it and breathe it as life. So that when those auditions come up, you don't weigh as heavily on it. You haven't made them that as important to you. - Yes. - And when you're working and you're constantly creating stuff, more and more people are seeing you perform and you're meeting more people that are also like-minded. And that also gets a lot of work for you. People may say, "Hey, Mitch, will you come and play this role in this thing or Sam will you play this role or Drew will you play this role?" And the work just starts to pile up for them that way. - Yeah, it's interesting. A couple girlfriends that are actresses and that were always on the shortlist and close. And it just wasn't clicking yet. The good news is actors, if you're on the shortlist or if you're testing a lot like you're almost there. You're there, you're in the right rooms, you're getting in front of people. Just keep going. Don't get discouraged. But I have a girlfriend in particular that as soon as she had a kid, then she started booking like crazy because her mind and energy was elsewhere. And this is her particular experience. It's not like everyone have a kid and then you'll start fucking. I've seen it happen to actor friends once their life becomes fuller. There's more things going on. There's a very successful Emmy award-winning actor who is also a writer. He's started and written his own movies. Really has the pick of being able to do whatever he wants now, very much in demand. He's doing stand up at tiny little places because he, like the actors you just shared, loves performing, has a thought, has a creative idea, and wants to just get it out there and continue working. It doesn't necessarily have to be in performing, whatever you can do to keep your life full and fulfill yourself in any of the ways that feel good to you. This goes for people behind the camera too. Casting, as a casting director, it's very much an all-consuming 24/7 job. It can be, and holding our boundaries around that work is also really important. I don't know how many people I know that are really successful doing huge things that are really struggling with burnout. - Yeah. The way I handle that is, I teach two classes a week, and that keeps me busy. And then I like to work on a show. I've never been a casting director that is comfortable doing three or four projects at the same time, arming out a lot of that work. It's too stressful for me, and I don't feel that I do my best work in a situation like that. So-- - You're a monogamous casting director. - You're a committed dude. - So sweet. - The way I learned the business was in working on a series, and then doing pilots and indies periodically through the season. I was only for a very short time, was I ever working at two different points in my life, was I ever working on two series at the same time. It's like being on call 24/7. - Yeah. - And it's really only since the pandemic that I've been able to set boundaries for myself, hopefully your time for myself, and not feel compelled to answer every text or email that comes in for me at 10 p.m. midnight, that isn't an emergency situation. But it's just that's when the writers decide to get back to you. I see those now, and I say, okay, I'll respond to this tomorrow when I start working again. - Okay, wait, I love this question. I can't wait to hear your answer to this, ready? This is from an actor that was getting called in all the time for a particular casting office pre-pendemic, and has now fallen off of their radar. What's the best way to get back on a CD's radar? Is it okay to reach out to said CD with an email? What do you think? - Yeah, for me, I would say so, absolutely. I think it's the way in which you handle that email. I think the best way to reach out is to have something to say, which I think gets back to the idea of creating your own opportunities outside of the TV and film industry, saying, hey, I just wanted to let you know that I'm taking classes here now, or I've got a show that I'm doing with some friends here, or I just shot a bunch of TikToks, I've started this TikTok, anything that you can say that gives people an update on what you've been doing since they last. - Yes, yes. Yeah, I agree. Every office is different. You're cool if you get an email, right? Some offices may not. But as long as it's authentic. So having something to share, or I would even say, 'cause I've had actors reach out to me before, hey miss you, how are you? That's not what's really going on and I get annoyed by that. Let's not bullshit, please. We have jobs to do. You can fall off a casting director's radar because you were not doing good enough auditions, or something could have happened, not to make anyone neurotic, but their reasons besides, quote, just falling off of the radar, or they could be working on something that you're just no longer for right now. - That I used to bring in on that 70 show are very different from the people that I was constantly calling in for the middle, were very different from the people that I was bringing in for anger management, were very different from the people that I bring in for the Lopez versus Lopez show. Every show has a different world that it's working in. So yeah, you're constantly seeing different types and different types of people. When I was doing that 70 show, almost every week it was casting a young woman over the age of 18 to play younger because we had more men than women on that show. So we were usually plugging in a woman and just plugging in a woman. - I think in a woman that would be there that would be there in some sort of sexual capacity to throw off the dynamic of the man. That was that typically was what we did a lot on that show. And so these were-- - By the way, without knowing, I can guess the makeup of that writer's room. Go on. - Yes, exactly. - And I never said. And so I saw a lot of those. When I was doing the middle, most of what I was casting were middle age character types that looked like they live in Indiana. We became more of a character actor's dream. That show, then I started doing anger management where I was constantly casting women to play opposite Charlie Sheen in a romantic capacity. And that was where I went back to a lot of the women that I had seen on that 70 show. When I was seeing them in their early 20s, a lot of those women were now in their late 30s or 40s. It was still the same type, but now of course we were eight a bit. So I started seeing people that I hadn't seen in years again. - And it's not because you were not a fan of them for the past 10 years. Yeah. One of the things I wanted to share was when reaching out to a casting director authentically, if you don't have work that you can share, I personally feel like it would be okay to reach out to the casting director and say, "Hey, I so appreciated your support and loved coming into your office pre-pandemic as things are gearing back up. I'm auditioning, I'm self-tapping. I would love to put myself on tape for something for you when and if I'm appropriate." I think that's also a good reach out. - You're cut out. - Your energy clean and being authentic about what it is, which is, "I want to come in an audition for you again when you have stuff that's right, hope you're well." That's cool to say too. - Yeah, absolutely. And even if you have something to report, you would still want to add that at the end. - Of course, yeah, totally. - G. - No. - How do you feel about edited, meaning pieced together from different takes, audition scenes? Is this even okay and acceptable? Would you rather get two separate takes from an actor? - I have a real opinion about those. - Yes, I love when you have a real opinion. By the way, speaking of TikTok, G will share his opinions on everything that is on air right now. So check them out. Go on, what's your opinion, darling? - Well, my opinion on this is, and this is what I put in my self-tape instructions. If you're auditioning for something that's a five and under, a five lines or under roll, usually about a page, give or take, I asked the actors to perform the scene twice consistently on the same take. So on the same take, you do the scene, you take a beat, you do the scene again, which is exactly what I would ask them to do if they were in the room with me in person. If I saw them do something I like, I'd ask them to do it again. And what I'm looking for in that case is consistency of performance. I want to make sure that you can duplicate your performance because if you get cast in the role, they're going to require you to duplicate stuff on set. Whereas a lot of people, what they do is they want to give you a bunch of different takes, a bunch of different line readings, basically, of that role. - Look at how many colors I can give. - Yes. - And this is so important. I love that you do this because when you're hiring an actor that may be newer in their career or you don't know well and you don't have the benefit of meeting them in person and also being able to get that vibe and assess, that's really important that you have that information and they do it consistently in the same way. And if that way makes sense, then I know you're going to be able to give me a different take or two from that. - Exactly. And then if you have a larger role that's maybe a couple of scenes, two or three scenes, I have been known to ask actors to just leave the camera running and do all of the scenes back to back on the same tape. And they don't have to repeat the scenes, but I need to see that they can do all three of the scenes in the same tape. And I have seen actors really just explode when I give them that note, but that's exactly what they would have done if they had come in to audition for me in person. If they did the first scene and I like it, I say, "Okay, let's do scene two." "Okay, that's great. Let's do scene three." And I feel that not only does that help me to assess their level of expertise as a performer, it also helps the writers. - Yes. - Because I have no idea how many times you've recorded each scene. Some people what they do when they're self-tapping is they leave the camera running for every single thing they do, and they hope to catch lightning in a bottle with each scene. And then they will painstakingly go through and find the three, the take of each scene that they like the best and put them together. And my theory on it is you should be doing all of that work before you start rolling your camera. You're working the material, figuring it all out, reading with someone, getting it all down. And then once you got it all down and you've worked on stuff, that's when you turn the camera on. And quite frankly, if you can't record yourself tape in four takes or less, you're not ready to be self-tapping yet. You go back and do more work. And people, but people do get caught up in this whole thing of, oh, they're self-tapping. If I get it right on the first take and then it never works again, I want to make sure I have that take. If that's the case, you're not ready to be on my set. - Yeah. - And what I also see a lot of actors doing, I happen to have some sides right here. (laughs) - Send them to me, let's read them. No, please don't. - Yeah, so what I see a lot of actors doing is nobody wants to print stuff out anymore. And I recommend that actors always print their sides out and staple them. And then you have them. So you've worked and you've worked, worked, and you've got your lines down, but you also know where there's places on the page where you just don't connect to a line. So you circle that line, so you know where it is. And I'm holding, you can see here's the sides. I've got them just out of the frame, right? But they're still in my hands. And I can look at them and I can move through the scene like that and all that jazz. And what a lot of people are doing though is they're keeping their sides electronically on their screen. So while they're recording themselves-- - Oh, it's teleprompter. - It's, let's say I'm reading with you, so I'm looking at you and I'm doing the scene. But then I look over at my lines, 'cause I'm trying to figure out where my lines are and then I look back at you when we're doing the scene. And I'm looking over here at my lines. I can now as a character, I can see you readings, which isn't great. But if you've got the sides here, they're out of frame and you just use the sides. And when you glance down at them, I know I can see you glancing down the sides, but if it's keeping the rhythm of the scene and you're still in the scene, that's great. But I can't see you reading your sides. - Yeah, look, unless it's specifically stated for an audition, we don't expect you to be off-book. - Correct. - But I do expect you to have read it, you have metabolized it enough to make specific choice. I expect you to have been able to metabolize it enough so I get a real sense and a real taste of what you are bringing to this role, how you are going to interpret and do this role. If you're reading a teleprompter, or if that's what I'm getting, you're that much more disconnected from the material, from the thing you're doing. I'm not getting a sense of who you are. I'm not getting a sense of your take. And I also start to wonder, can you even remember, line? - What I've gotten from a lot of my students is that we're being told you have to be off-book and you have to have things memorized for these self-taves. And I hear this from a lot of actors. I have not seen it in self-tape instructions. - Occasionally, you see it in self-tape instructors. But not very often, where the actors are getting this note is from their reps. Because a lot of the actors have reps who locks their self-tape and the reps are now becoming like the pre-casting. - Yeah, dude, it's like your mother picking your headshot. The headshot your mom wants is not the one that's gonna sell you the best. It's the one that's gonna look adorable and are mantle. - And my guess is that if an agent or manager is telling you you have to be off-book, it's because one of their actors was off-book on a self-tape and they booked the job. So then the agent thinks you have to be off-book in order to book the job. But that's really not the case. I equate auditioning and acting to magicians. So if you remember. (laughing) - Wait, are you remember the magic castle? - Okay, go ahead. - Yes, I'll see you. Yeah, when you see a magician perform magic when you're watching them, that it's not magic. It is a slight of hand illusion. They are misdirecting you and things like the redirecting you so that you don't see things. Certainly. Listen, I disagree, but go on with your theory. So If the beauty of a great magician is that they make you believe that what you just witnessed was magic as opposed to what it really was, which was them spending sometimes months and years perfecting something so that it looks that way and that's the same thing with acting. I know that you are not this character and I know that you're not really getting shot in this scene and thrown out of a helicopter. But if you can make me believe it while holding these sides, you can if you can suspend my disbelief that's acting when you go see a stage play those actors aren't really they're not the when they go backstage they're not even speaking to each other and they're on their phone. But if they if you believe it on the stage, that's the beauty of the illusion. Yes, you don't have to believe that you have to make us believe it and I feel like a lot of acting coaches and they're not going to be actors into into forgetting their own instincts and they try to make actors believe the scenes that they are performing instead of making me believe the scene with the air. When you're up there, you've got across on this line, you've got to flip this light switch on this line. You've got to sit down on this line, you got to grab your drink on this line. And when you're in your head or trying to believe you in the scene, you are you're going to miss a lot of that you're going to miss a lot of that blocking a lot of those cues. You have to know how to do all of those things and make me the audience believe that you're reminding me to though of some of actors that would come in and if there was a lot of business in the scene, they spent more time rehearsing the business then creating a character. You can answer phone. Yeah, I know you can walk across the room because you just walked across the room to the like the focusing on the most important things when it's a pre read when it's a pre screen. We're assuming you're not five auditions in for your third call back with the director and you're about to get the gig then I expect you to be a little bit more off. I'm looking for more of a polished performance than but by and large, the audition is getting a taste showing your showing you're going to be a professional nice person to work with and my director, my producer, liking your take on the world. Yeah, that's right. The beauty of an audition is your performing the scene for people who already know the whole scene. So if you're if the audition is you and me talking and then all of a sudden you get a phone call and you're talking to somebody else on a phone call but the reader is still the same reader with you. You don't have to show me that you have a phone and that you're and that you're on the phone and people will do this where they're talking the phone now we can't even see your face as you just you have to know that the reader just change characters. You have to know that you're on the phone talking to somebody different and if you know that it comes across the scene because we already know that you already know that your characters on the phone talk to someone else. Yes, you're making me think of to jump back to being able to do different things and auditions like you wanting the scene twice the way or whatever the adjustment is. Why resilience is so important and how you hold your mind and how you take care of yourself in this business when I was overseen casting for free form I was hiring a lot of actors where it was their first see and every actor that's starting out they want their first series they want to be a series regular it's a big right of passage. And showing up every day and handling yourself on set for the initial order of a series that's work to this also speaks to resilience if it's hard for you to hold the stress and no one saying it's easy I just share with you if it's hard for you to hold the stress of having different adjustments or having to put nine pages on camera over a couple days. It's going to be hard for you to show up every day on set and we had some of those experiences where there would be very talented people but they just couldn't hack the workload or they couldn't keep their mind straight because they were getting involved in many petty dramas that were taking off their game and taking them off the work and taking them out of why they were actors and what their gift is and what they were here to do to begin with. I can't stress enough working on your resilience having other ways to nurture yourself and keeping your head straight when you come and do just the job at hand which is the audition is super important in the end will also help serve you too. Yeah. Okay, are just two more questions. Thank you so much for your time. How are we doing? Oh great. Fine. Good. Okay, cool thoughts on giving feedback on actors auditions. Okay, annoying. Don't do it. What is your personal thoughts and then for me the thoughts on giving it happy to but having the time and the energy to do it when you're seeing so many people were two different things when I was doing it and also some actors. The feedback is they did a great job and it truly is it they did a great job they just weren't who was picked like them would try them for other so I feel like back in the day back in the day meeting like when we were started we were babies 20 years ago 17 years ago whatever it was that we were seeing fewer actors. The projects were different there were not as many projects one of my first assistant jobs was on spin city the first few seasons in New York Bonnie Finnegan cast that she was bringing in seven or 10 people for the guest star they would audition them over the day the producer had time and was watching them in person and they were giving Bonnie feedback in real time so then they had time to give the actors feedback there were not as many actors and Bonnie was getting her feedback in real time. I think that's another thing with how the process is now you're putting someone on tape then you're sending it to the writer the producer who sometimes is watching an embed two in the morning and then they have questions and it'll come down to the wire what is your theory. When I first started out I felt because I was thinking of it really as an actor I'm a gosh wouldn't be great to get all this feedback and do you remember when we were kids there was this game you play where everyone would stand in a line and someone would be given a sentence and they would whisper to one person telephone the time it gets down to the last person it's not even close to the state yes yes and that's how giving critiques of an audition on because someone so right you're so right yeah by the time the agent hears it thinks about what's been said to them and repeats it to the actor it's already passed through a couple of people and by the time it's the actor it's just terrible it's usually heartbreaking information so I stopped because I thought I was doing a service and what I was really doing was a disservice and I realized that it's really just about hey they were really good they're just they want somebody else for this but oh they made a great impression in the room will bring them back for something else or that that kind of thing. That kind of thing is it's that's really as positive as it can get sometimes the feedback is yeah they were great we're still seeing people they're still trying to figure out this and still in the mix but it's all it all means the same thing. Yeah it's interesting the times that I would specifically pick up the phone and give feedback was if something was so terrible. Yeah they were so amazing yes and they didn't book the job but they were so great so I would call to say to the agent to give encouragement so and so murdered it they killed it they're amazing keep going I want to find something they're doing great or they really love this or they were incredibly rude to the assistant or they talked at a turn or did something crazy in the room it was rare but occasionally there would be someone that would perhaps not show up sober things like that needed to be dealt with so that they would not continue to make the same mistake. And I've given that kind of feedback to an agent is the agent usually fights back against it so I remember once I had an actor come in that I worked with before and they came in for a producer session live in the room and they threw their sides in the face of the reader at the end and walked out. So I called the agent to tell them that this had happened and the agents response was yeah good days you have bad days which by the way maybe true but that's a real bad day I never I don't feel comfortable ever bringing that person. We're not just but yeah so typically I think the best feedback you can get from an audition is if besides booking the role would be getting called back in by that office for something else yeah that's your feedback that that shows that what you did a good job and now they're bringing you back in to try something else yes the best feedback you're reminding me there was someone had asked me to meet an actor when I was at freeform on the general meeting a general meeting is just a hey, how you doing getting to know someone like a little like a coffee meet and greet and new actor young in his career in my building there was a main a trim with a security desk you had to give your name get a sticker and then go to my floor I was walking in from lunch at the same time this person was showing up and he was so rude and mean to the security person without cause was just being so obnoxious. And once we came in, we had the meeting, it was fine, but of course I put a taste of my mouth. Yeah. And when the manager called to say, didn't you love him, I said, I got to say, this was like, it's not a great showing and it's not a good way to go through the world or to walk into my office. Everyone here matters. You're not just nice to me, encourage you to me, be nice and cordial to everybody, be as Michael test and I will say, be a person, be a person in a world, don't port yourself like a human being, but you're right, the manager then wanted to fight me on it. And I was like, it's not a discussion. I saw it happen in real time and this person was rude without cause because they felt like they could talk down to a security person. And that stuff does reflect on you. I remember being an assistant and same as you, G, right? All the assistants that are still in the casting game are now big time casting directors. And they remember the actors that were really shity to them as assistants are left their garbage for the assistant to pick up or just those type of things. If you're going into an audition room, there will be some auditions where we're going back in person again at some point or you're taking a meeting writer or with a writer whatever it is. Be the person that would make your grandparent proud. Yeah. The people that work consistently are the ones in my opinion are the ones who make a point of treating everyone great. And those are the people that that really build great careers. There's an actor that I've known we were in class together years ago in the mid 90s and she works all the time primarily as a guest actor or recurring actor. I've hired her on every show almost every show I've done. I've ended up having something I could bring her in for. I was working on anger management, which was such a strange show to work on. We were also included in Sun Valley where the sets they had the sound stages and the production offices and everything lunchroom, everything was there. So when you showed up for work, like you just stayed there and lunch broke and everyone ate lunch together in the same room at big long tables that were set up. This particular actor was there working on an episode of the show and she and I were having lunch together. And while we had lunch, eight different people stopped by people that were on the crew and some of the writers stopped by to say fight over and to say I remember working with you on such a special show and she remembered every person's name that the shows that they had worked on together. She would chat with them about the experience and all that stuff. And I just was in awe that she really made sure to take the time when she was on set to know the people. You know, everybody she would remember people's names remember what they do. She still works all the time and it reminded me a little bit of that great scene in Sunset Boulevard when Gloria Swanson think that Cecil P. DeMille wants her to be in this new movie, but she really just wants her car. And so she shows up with the car and he brings her on set to see what talking films are like because she was a big silencer. And she's sitting there in a chair on the sound stage looking around at how different everything is now that they're now that it's a sound feature. And you hear some of the crew are starting to whisper the Norma Desmond is here and then a guy with the big spotlight sees her and he shines the spotlight and she starts calling everybody by name and they all come around and she's talking to each of them about the old days and it was that's what it reminded me. Yeah, but it was like that's it's not everybody has the ability to do that. But to be able to really conduct yourself in a way that is so professional and friendly to everyone that you work with because you work with more people than just your co-stars and the director when you're on set. Yeah. And to remember those people. Yeah, it's Bill Lawrence talks about I may be not explaining it as well as he does, but he says there's 20 people in Hollywood and he's not talking about there's 20 gatekeepers. What it means is the town is so small. Yeah. Everyone knows someone. I would get calls from a big movie casting directors when they were thinking about putting what someone that was on one of my series or graduated the series was no longer on air and say how were they? How are they as a person? How are they to work with? And listen, we have all been in really stressful situations. Shitty stuff can go down, right? There are people that are not kind. Things move quickly. We cannot always be our best selves. And doing the best you can and also remembering when you're in those sticky situations to still try to make the classiest choice you can is only going to serve you in the long run. And this is a privilege kept being able to work in the business that we get to cashows, give jobs that actors get to go in an audition and make things and express themselves creatively. This is a privilege. Yeah. It's not dig and ditches. I always say it beats a real job. Yeah. Yep. Yep. That's right. As someone who has had real jobs, the worst day in casting is still better than the best day I ever had waiting tables or making video games for me. Amen. Amen. Hey, gee, what's the what's the best thing that happened to this week? What made you happy this week? Oh, yeah. So today is Friday. The best thing that oh, the best thing that happened to me this week is I had family. I had an uncle and a aunt who came in on Thursday at last week and stayed with me until Monday. Yeah. And getting to end last week, enjoy my weekend with my family and even start this week with my with some of my family around was really the best thing that happened to me. It was I always loved when you have house guests and then they leave. There's always a whole that's nice too. But when they left, I felt a little lonely. The best part of my week was really getting to share a lot of time with my family. And I have learned over these last couple of years to enjoy my life outside of my work and to not be as to not feel as identified with my job as I had become started in casting. I had a full life. I had all these friends that are outside of show business. I grew up out here and most of my friends are not in the are not in the business. I had this whole great life and then I got sucked into my job. And especially as you're working your way up, you give it all. And then at some point that all just takes over. So when everything died down and I felt that I was left with a life that it has to me by, I started getting back in touch with the things that make me happy like playing my like playing my banjo. Yes, I've been dying to ask about the banjo the whole time. Yes. Doing stuff like that, which is something I did before I got into casting. I played the banjo. And even when I worked on 70 show, I had a banjo of mine that sat in my office because I would be there for so many hours every day and I could sit and play my banjo. And I eventually stopped playing. I didn't play for 15 years. And over the shutdown, a therapist I was working with asked me like, what do you like to do? When I said, the only things I really like to do where I like to go to the movies, I like to go to the gym, I like to go out to eat. And I can't do any of those things right now. And what else do you like to do? I like I used to play, I used to like to play the banjo. I like reading. I like learning things like all of the stuff that I started picking up again. So I busted my banjo out now. I take a lesson every week. I love it. And I'm just I'm reconnecting with my friends. And I'm getting better at telling my friends what's going on with me. And when I need help sharing yourself, sharing myself, it's the way I read the way I reached out to you. After the pandemic shutdown, I was like, thinking, reassessing the people in my life that I enjoyed being around, but had completely lost all touch with and trying to just be a person, sharing things with other people that I enjoy sharing stuff with. I love the awareness that there were things that you wanted to grow and and and to bring more joy and ease into your life. And then I love that you have the vulnerability to allow yourself to do it and make space for it. Yeah. That's the simple question of what do you like to do? As we become adults, it like life takes over, work takes over, the looking of this is where I want to go, the goal without assessing why we want to achieve it and how we can enjoy our lives. Like your life is now it's happening now while you're waiting tables while you're struggling, putting doing self tapes. Like while your life is now while you were building your casting career and to have the awareness and thank you for sharing that so cleanly and clearly if I let that part go and I knew I needed to get it back, I knew I was missing something. There was parts of me that weren't being fed is fucking bad ass dude. Yeah, thanks. Yeah. I want to know like how are you rebuilding your life? Yeah. What are you making important to yourself now? And that's those are the people that I surround myself with so much of what we like to do is like going to the theater. We love to go see performances. These are things we love to movies movies, TV TV, theater comedy comedy comedy. And when that's also a part of your job, I stopped, I had stopped doing a lot of it. I had stopped going out to a lot of stuff. because I was just exhausted. - Burn out, yeah. - Burned out and now I go out to shows all the time. I got to the groundland so many times this year. I'm just getting out to shows going to more theater, doing more of that stuff because I love to do it. And then if I see people that are interesting, that's just a bonus. My mindset is back to just doing those things 'cause I love them. And if I meet new people through it as well, that's great for work stuff. - I love what you, when you shared about being with your family, that reminds me of what we've been talking about a lot on this, which is it's relationships, man. It's the quality of your relationships, outside of work, in work, in what you do. And if you're in the business, a lot of your personal relationships are also work relationships. And yeah, I love that you had that experience with your family. - Thanks. There was a situation for me about two months ago where I was in the middle of casting on my series and some real shit had gone down. It's just because stuff happens, right? When you're on a show and you're producing things. Episodes get switched around, roles you were casting, get moved. Now you have to cast new roles that have just come in and they may be letting an actor go and having to replace an actor. And all of this was happening to me in a particular week when one of my uncles died. - Effectively, very young, a guy that I was extremely close to growing up. And one of the benefits for me about working from home now is that and because I have learned to prioritize things when my uncle died and I'm still dealing with all this other stuff, I had to instead of pushing it aside and compartmentalizing myself, I just, I prioritize me and I say, okay, I've got a half hour here where I can call my brother or I can call one of my other uncles and have a conversation about this. Oh, I just got news of my uncle died shit and I'm in the middle of all this stuff with work. Well, an hour from now I know I'm gonna have a half hour to deal with this. So I would do some work stuff and then I would take that other half hour, call my brother and we'd talk for a half hour about this and then do some work and then I'd call my cousin and then I would call another and I just managed to get through everything I needed to get through and own for me all the stuff that was happening instead of falling apart or instead of ignoring one thing and letting something else drop, I thought, okay, I'm good at organizing, so let's organize some space for this and that's what I did and that I wouldn't have done that 10 years ago. - And that you did it in the way that worked for you and I also see when you share that how much softness and love you had for your uncle and how much he meant to you, that's so beautiful. - Yeah, thank you. Yeah, life happens and we've all got lives outside of our work and I do feel like the big problem with LA is that because it is an industry town so many of us just get caught up in our industry and we lose track of ourselves and our lives. So really making time, the making time to see my family, like I said, I grew up here, so a lot of my family is here, making time to go see them, making time to talk to them, making time to talk to my close friends about what's going on with me, then having the people that I talk to about what? I'm not just, I'm not just all about one thing. - Yeah, and we're lucky enough that there are those occasional people that get both of it. - Yeah, that's true. - That would be a geek out on the Hollywood stuff and also really are curious and wanna know genuinely what's going on in your heart. - Yeah, yeah. And just opening myself up to being a better friend to my friends and has been really, really great for me. It's been a real eye over. - Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your flexibility. My intention is to have these conversations with different casting directors to demystify and really share with actors and how I hope for this is that it helps encourage them for and also that they can see that there's real human beings on the other side of this too. - Yeah. - Yeah, I love it. Thank you so much for sharing all that. - Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for doing this. - You're the best. - I'm very excited for this new chapter of your life. - Thanks, thanks man. It's been good. I have a life coaching business now. I have a lot of studies and work in mindfulness and meditation and it's something I was doing while I was at Disney. I went back to school and I got my masters in spiritual psychology. So I've always been geeking out on this stuff. And I'm really interested in people that have the type of driving creatives, but also know that there's more to life than just a goal line. It's school they used to say there's the goal line and there's the soul line. So as do I keep it as it is, you don't forget it. And it's true. Being able to serve actors and creatives is really exciting for me. So I'm excited to see it unfold and thank you so much. - You're awesome. Thanks man. - You got it. - You're so good to see you. - You too. - Oh, bye. - Let's have pizza with too much cheese on it sometimes soon. - Sounds great. - Okay. Bye, doll. (upbeat music) I mean, that guy is the best. I love that conversation and I hope you did too. Special thanks to all of the fabulous actors who submitted thoughtful questions. And especially to Jason Roguel, who collected questions from his Thursday evening acting class and composed a long and thoughtful email sharing them all. Thank you so much, Jason. I appreciate you all. I hope this highlights that every casting director has their own preferences in way of doing things. The process in each casting office is unique to the people that run it. And as we roll out more episodes, you'll hear it for yourself. So, currently recording three more in the next week. And the intention is to get them up as quickly as possible. Okay guys, you rock. Thanks for listening. (upbeat music)