Off Book: Conversations with Casting Directors / Deb George / Episode 104

(upbeat music) My name is Elizabeth Boykevich. My friends call me EB, so that means you can call me EB2. I'm so glad that you're here. You can find me online at theeb.co. THEB.co. I spent the last 20 years in show business, first working in casting for a theater, TV, and film. Most recently, I was the head of casting and talent while helping build two TV networks and brands at the Walt Disney Company. I am now a leadership coach and facilitator. I am a mindfulness guide, and I am a human being. Try my best to human well. I dig all things around growth, creativity, storytelling, and curiosity. I realized that there wasn't a place where actors could get to know casting directors and ask questions for free. So here we are. We collected over 100 questions from actors and will be answering the alongside a different casting colleague each episode. A giant thank you to all of the actors who have submitted questions. If you would like to submit a question to be answered on the podcast, please visit the four actors page on my website. All links and the contact for our casting director guests can be found in the notes section of each episode. I hope this supports and encourages you on your acting journey. I love you. Keep going. The world needs your voice, and the world needs your creativity. I hope you enjoy. (upbeat music) Deb George has been in casting for over 20 years. Her series credits include Prison Break, Desperate Housewives, The Foster's, Devious Mades, Why Women Kill, Good Trouble. She did the original casting for the bold type. She has cast too many TV pilots to name, TV movies and independent film. Deb cast Projects partnered alongside the very handsome Scott Jenkins'er and on her own. Deb is a deeply kind, gracious and thoughtful woman. I am so glad I get to share her with all of you today. Here we go. My intention as I shared with you is to help actors to show them what wonderful people there are in the other side that are working and doing this job to show them as humans, but also to really encourage them and to influence them. Yeah, I did actually check out the podcast. So I was enjoying listening to them. I'm very, very glad to find you. Oh, good. I know. I just did a BIPOC panel for casting assistance. Rob DeCed had put together a program with CDS. And so that was pretty, we did that last week. And that was actually a lot of fun I enjoyed it. 18, 19 year olds wanted to dive in the casting here in their experience, so just kind of took me back. Yes. It was really cool. Yeah, so. You have so much expertise to share. And you're also such a lovely human being. That's what meant a lot to me when I was starting when I was 2021-22 was feeling really intimidated by people's resumes and then going in and some of them I still remained totally terrified of. Yeah. You could be a good person and a nice person and a lovely boss and to do good work was really meaningful to me. So I love that you have time to that. I appreciate that. Thanks. All right. So let's get started. All right. Please tell me, do you prefer Deb or Debby or Deborah? I don't know. I'm like in Deb. You like in Deb? Yeah. Deb does more on that in credits and fine print. OK, good. Deb, George, thank you so much for being here. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. Thank you for sharing some of your time and your expertise with us. I would love if you would share how you got started in the business. What brought you to casting? Where did you grow? Yeah. thumbnail sketch of your journey. Yeah. You were going to casting. I grew up in the South Bay and I went to college at UC San Diego. I studied communications. And early on, I had an interest in actually being a talent agent. So I took an internship for about a year, learning about signing new talent, pitching actors, negotiating deals, and then opportunity to open up at a studio called Stusegal Productions, where I was really fascinated with the casting process. Really quickly, I knew that was where I wanted to focus on pursuing my career into casting. So did that for about a year and a half. And on San Diego, you learned to take up a lot of different trades. So I was doing real people casting for commercials, print, music videos, did a bit of reality casting, which I loved. But I knew that was not something that I would have wanted to do in a late in my career, running around town, discovering people off the streets based on a look. So I really focused in on TV and film. And that's when I decided to move to LA. I interviewed, looks got Jankinger and Judy Lary Johnson, got hired as a casting assistant. Pretty early on, I was really fortunate to work on such great shows and stuff with housewives and prison break and stayed with them throughout my career, learning from through the best. And I've been casting my own stuff since then. I just really enjoyed working on a variety of genres. So that's something that keeps it interesting for me working on different types of projects, different age ranges. What did you love about reality casting? I'm so interested to hear that you loved it. It's a whole different piece. Oh, I think reality was the least fit for me. I felt I worked on a show called "Alimadate, Not To Date Myself." I was back in the day. Oh my gosh. So remember that. Did you ever watch that? I remember "Alimadate." Yep. Oh gosh. I think the nature of it was just a little bit of a different fit for me, seeing that a lot of the stuff was scripted. And so I didn't really feel like it was the right match for me. There was a lot going on behind the scenes for that show. And just kind of-- I didn't only imagine. I did a lot of the dating shows. I was in my early 20s, but I remember going to bars and meeting people, getting really excited about their looks and type and just thinking they'd be a great fit, and setting them up for a session that next day. And a lot of them didn't show up because they went in the biz. They weren't familiar with how things worked. I had no agent to call and say, where is this person? They had a 10 o'clock appointment. I felt like it just wasn't the right match for me. I think that you've got to have the right passion to pursue that avenue. I see how the South Bay would be a very full talent pool for dating. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I could run bars for me now, because it was just turned into work. I had a lot of fun. I love just meeting new people and getting to know them. And I love discovering talent. Were your folks in the business? They were not. No. My mom is a hairdresser. And my father worked in immigration. He was a Vietnam vet. So there's no entertainment in my family in the first. So it was a completely new thing for you? Yeah. Early on, my parents tried to get me into modeling and acting. I take classes when I was younger, but I definitely knew that wasn't where I wanted to be from that end of the camera. And then you come to LA and you land a job as an assistant in one of the best and most respected cast offices in all of Los Angeles. Yeah. So grateful to land in that office. They're just great. There's so much that I learned working in that office. They were so supportive in my career, even until this day, I couldn't have asked for a better place to land. Was there anything that surprised you? What did you learn when you first came into casting? It was just a different time back then. Our process was a bit different. It was before we had electronic submissions and access to breakdown expressed. I remember just packets of headshots coming in from submissions and having to sit there and file those. And just prepping sessions, we had this file cabinet and the path that searched real the headshots to get together or calling agents to fax over their head shot if it was missing. Things like that were so different back then, uploading auditions in real time, making 10 VHS or disk copies, they in our health, nine or 10 at night, technologies really helped us. A lot of the things that I learned, learning to trust your instincts and how to deal with conversations with agents now getting through that, handling situations. I think there's a lot of multi-passing and casting, we're constantly dealing with multiple things at the same time. We have to really learn how to navigate through that to be successful. I have questions from actors that I would love if you would answer. Yeah, of course. OK. So the first one is, with the accessibility of self-tapes, casting directors considering more actors for a role via self-tapes than they normally would in person. So are you seeing more people for roles now that you can get self-tapes than you would if you were reading in person? That's definitely a common thing that I'm asked. And absolutely, we have a lot more flexibility with having that luxury of seeing new actors and taking chances on people. Back in the day when we were in the office, we would set up three, four hours a day on casting sessions. But I think we're also at nighttime I like to go through self-tapes. There's a lot of flexibility on our hours. I love taking chances at any meeting talent. Yes, the answer is yes. There are different ways that you could get to know an actor, either after seeing them on a show or a movie or a new person presenting a self-tape to you. What is your process to getting to know them after that? How are you educating yourselves about actors since the process has changed? Yeah, a lot of times I'm on a pilot that we just recently worked on. Gosh, we took a lot of chances and set up a lot of people. Immediately when I see someone that strikes me that for the first time, they'll call their reps up and say, can you tell me about this actor? Can you send me some work they've done recently? If I'm not familiar with it, they'll send recent self-tape auditions or demos or write-ups on their background. That's been a good way for me to educate myself on actors. We found this wonderful actor, Amari K. Chancellor, when we were doing the pilot. Right off the bat, we just knew he was really special. I get so excited, I'll call the reps up and they'll say, tell me about this actor. They don't hold back. We're definitely in communication with Fadency Managers, whether they're pitching or we're asking them about actors. So it's been really helpful in the process. A lot of her jobs can be being an ANSI Drew. If there's someone who I love, someone that I see in something, if it's on a tape or on a show, I will. go down the rabbit hole and look to see if they find, right? If they do have a public social media profile, what they've done at IMDB, is there something on YouTube really try to educate myself about them and see what other things that they've done? Yeah, that's really helpful. I'm always excited to check out their work. I know something's coming out. I'll put it on my list of people to follow up on and see what they can do with the role. You keep a list of people to follow up on? I've got a little running list. Yeah, boys and that way, even back in the day when I was doing workshops, we'd always take notes on the actors and then bring them on stuff. I have sessions that's been really valuable. Making notes on actors, I'll go back and refer those or just to keep a mental database in my head. We can call those actors in if it hasn't been years and they're like, "You did remember me." Yes, we remember. It's a thing that feels like the thing is going to be good for you. We've got to really rely on our memories quite a bit. Okay, well, here we go. It's great to lead in. When casting directors say they will think of actors for other roles, future projects, how they keep tabs on those actors, how they usually keep a filer database, how often do you actually bring back actors for other projects? A couple of questions in that. Pretty often, it just depends on the show that we're working on. Are they fit for it? There's definitely been times when I've been able to bring them in from multiple shows and hire them if it's the right role. It happens quite often. We're always keeping I/O and people that we think are special. And as far as how you keep tabs on them, running list of people that you want to make sure of. Yeah, we keep our running list and going back and referencing old sessions and looking up things. I think it's really important to keep tabs on people and always keep building on that. And there are those actors that you see, you go, they're good. They need a little more seasoning. Let me check back. Yeah, and I think a lot of the times when I've expressed an interest in actor and I'm talking to their reps, a lot of the agents and managers are really good at what keeping touch with me and letting me know what they've been up to, what shows they're booking and how they're doing on careers. And it comes with the communication on talking to agents and managers and we really get it. Keep me posted on actors when I check in. That is an extra step that you do. You were really in communication with the rep to say, I love this person. This role isn't for them, but please keep me apprised what they're doing. Having those relationships are really important. Deb, how many years have you been in the business? A little over 20. Okay, that's been a minute. Many years you've worked on so many projects, films, series, pilots, your favorite project that you've cast. There are a lot of projects that I love for different reasons. The one that's been really special to me and actually we got to work on that together was the Foster's for it was ABC Family Back in the Day. That's just a special show for many reasons I got. A lot of the writing and character development and the type of roles that were written that we got to do searches for, just really rewarding, called for a lot of pre-reads that we did Scott and I and it was just so special to be able to find young actors at that age. It really captured these roles and it was really fun to see people resonate with the characters on that show. It's the types of young people that you got to look for and put on camera I think. Really by and large hadn't been done. I don't think I ever told you this story. Do you know Ricky Thompson? He's a social media influencer. I had a general with him several years back and he said to me as a young gay black person in the South. The Foster's showed me that I could be on camera and I could be on screen. Wow. Yeah, we were able to get a lot of feedback from people on what the show meant to them and it's really powerful. And launched so many careers. That's really exciting to see. Gosh, I was actually just looking at the people that we've cast on that show and there's just so many people. There's such a large cast, so many people that we discovered on that together and just exciting to see the careers take off. Can you feel like a proud mama when you see those actors going on to continue to work in their career and doing great work? There are a lot of moments and a lot of conversations that we had knowing that this person was really special in their careers. We're going to take off. I remember having a lot of conversations with you about that. I love that we were able to take a lot of chances on people as well that were early on in their careers. We knew they had something special. And watching the growth on the series and onward in their careers, I guess, is just something that's just so exciting and rewarding to see. And that show spawned this "Finoff Good Trouble" which is on to this day and that's another fabulous series regular cast. And we had a lot of fun on that one too. I had conversations with actors on that show after they were cast to say, "I got to show up as my whole self, Miss Zuri Adele, when I met her for the first time." She came in and said, "I got to show up as my whole self dressed as a person with my hair how I wanted it to be and to bring all parts of me to audition." When you get a show like that, it is really special. I love that we had an opportunity. There's a lot of diversity on both shows. That was something that was really exciting as well. There were a lot of rules on there that we had an opportunity to cast people on. And yeah, I just went a lot to see the representation on there. Okay, here's another question. If you look the part, but you have a bad self-tape, does casting usually call for a work session slash callback? Yeah, I think it depends on. It helps to find familiar with the actor. And I know that maybe they're having an off day or that they can do better. I'll call up the reps and say maybe they don't quite have an understanding on the role or always love to give them extra chances and try to work with them if I can. I'm familiar with them or that the agents or managers can show me tape on something similar that they've done. And I have the time. We do often bring them back in and work with them and specifically notes on what we're looking for. And a lot of times it's paid off and they've picked a role. It's something definitely worth doing if we can and you have the time for it. Also, as I've watched this, we'll let the male casting directors to always reading for the actors and trying to put them in the best light. And we'll definitely let them know that we've seen them do better, highlight other roles that they've played in and things that they've been wonderful in. We have the time to bring them back, we will. Okay. Do you see tapes only until you find the right person or do you go through them all? We definitely have to go through them all. If you've received an appointment, it's for a reason that we think you're right for the role. So we're definitely going to go through them. We never just go ahead and just send one person. You send anywhere from four to six, seven people as top contenders, usually. We'll send them over an order of preference of our liking. So I think that we've got to keep moving and watching all these self tapes. So when you get the tapes, you watch all of them, then you will send a grouping of them to your producer and director. Yeah. And do you say we think a completely nailed it and hear some others or do you send it blindly and say let us know your thoughts? I think it depends on the relationship we have with the producers and the directors. A lot of times we'd like to keep it open to hear their thoughts. If there's a standout person, I'll put notes in there, take a special look at this person, we love them, they've been great. It really depends on the project and the nature of their relationship. We definitely want to give our producers a wide variety of options, depending on what they're looking for. It's quite a process. And then sometimes after even sending four to six people, we'll bring them back in for callbacks a lot of times they may want to just see the top two processes change a bit now that everything's over zoom. So really just depends on the project. I'm curious to know if you are doing a series now, are you casting off of self tapes and the actor gets the gig or are you doing self tapes and then doing a producer session over zoom live with the actor and whoever the hiring person is? And you see for the larger roles, like large recurring roles or series, regular or leads of a film, we'll definitely and I do callbacks with the producers. It's smart to do as well as seeing if they can take direction or if there's something more specific that they're looking for. It's paid offering and to go to that extra step. For some of the co-star roles, they're able to make a decision, but larger roles. A lot of times they'll want to work with the actors and get to know them and make them over zoom. I'm curious. I have some questions about this. How is a zoom audition different? What I'm trying to get at is do you have any specific tips or things that you think work really well when an actor comes into a zoom room? It's a little bit of a different dynamic. Have you found that there are these things definitely work or these things don't do them? I'm sure this is something that actors here a lot, but obviously the quality of the audition is really important. Making sure the sound is good when we send tapes and if the sound is not great or there's lighting issues or something about sort of a standard to have that up to par, that's something that is really important for your audition. And Deb, that counts on your self tapes, correct? Correct. If I'm coming into a zoom room and it is really first zoom room produces what can I expect? What are mistakes you've seen or what are things that work really well? Gosh, okay. And by the way, there may not be anything. It may just be like come in, be a person, make sure you're well lit and we can hear you and that you have the material like all of those things are always a rule of thumb being or showing up in the audition. But I would think the dynamic is just a touch different. Yeah, I think you've got to really show a bit of your personality since you're over zoom. A lot of the times the producers will ask questions and want to get to know you. I think you should just be able to show a little bit of yourself over zoom. It takes a little bit extra to capture personality. It's a hybrid of a self tape and being in a producer's room but in your own home. It is, I think. That's a good point. So you find there's a little hey, how you do in chit chat at the beginning. Yeah, I think to break that awkwardness over zoom helps to have some personality there in the beginning. And then there's a warmer producer session rooms when they were in person ones that would be like, hey, how are you? Do you have any questions? Thank you for coming. Just a little bit of a preamble. Yeah. Or you would be able to say hello to everyone. And then there were the ones that were really cold. I know. I would warn the actors in the waiting room were just going to go into the scene. Yeah. That's unfortunate enough. So far, all of the sessions I've worked with producers are just really outgoing. introduce themselves, ask if there are any questions. I think they realize it's some things could be missed over zoom. I'm grateful that it's been a positive experience for the most part for actors. - Good, good. Have there been any egregious mistakes that you think would be good to say to actors like don't do that? - A head of time if there's something that we see on a self-tape that's not working, all those things are corrected. Before they come back into producers, we can make sure we take care of those things and then they're addressed with their agency managers. So by the time they come into producers, don't really see a lot of the stakes that are being made, except for sound or technical things, or not taking notes that were addressed. I think those are things that can really hurt an actor's chances on getting a role. For the most part, I think the audition process and casting is still pretty similar. - And Deb, just a technical question. Do actors sit in the virtual waiting zoom room and then you let them in one by one? - Yeah, associate will let them in one by one. So if we're running behind, we'll have them update the actors and let them know, which does happen sometimes. - Does it happen on a chat box? - Are they associate? - Is the associate popping their head in on video being like, hey guys, so sorry. - Yeah, I'm using associates popping in or don't call the reps or let them know over Zoom that we're running a bit behind and let them know and we've had our sessions just so we can know what the time frame of the audition is gonna be based on who we're working with. A lot of directors, some more than others will know if they want to spend more time working with them. - I have not done episodic in this landscape. This is so interesting to me. Just to break it down, let's say this is a big recurring guest star role, an actor will put themselves on tape. You say yes, this is great, this is it. Then they are invited for a call back to a live Zoom audition with the director producer whoever is the decision maker. And in that room will be that person/people and then the casting director, correct? And then the actor will be in a Zoom room. When it's their time, then they pop in into that room to do their audition. There's a hey, how you doing? What's good? Any questions? Okay, let's read the scene. And then they are reading with you or a reader, correct? Another technical question. Do you have the producer directors take themselves off camera or is everyone on camera when the actor's reading? - Yeah, we have everyone take themselves off camera once the audition starts. The only person the actor will see is the reader. So it's not too distracting to have a bunch of faces on top of the Zoom, but the actors are looking at. I think that's important to do. - Yeah, and we give all the actors the heads up on who's gonna be in the room or on Zoom. (laughs) And we try to make it as comfortable as possible. - The more information, the better. - For what? - You want to set the stage. - Yeah, exactly. - By the way, thank you for bringing that down. I find this really interesting. It's been a big shift. Do you miss being in person, Deb? - I do, I do. I love interactions with actors and getting to know them and sitting in the room and talking to them before we jump into a pre-read and so forth. I've filled a lot of friendships that way. And that is something that I really miss about being in the room and just the energy that you can get at the time. And also just interaction with people. I think that's something that we need in life. Yeah. - Most of people that were called to be casting directors really love people and really love artists. - Yeah. - There's pluses and minuses to it. You get to be able to give more opportunities and missing the real energetic exchange and being able to be with someone in person. There's some of that magic is lost. - Yeah. We're able to work with actors a lot prior to seeing their first auditions. But again, if we see potential in someone, we'll definitely give them a chance to retake or we'll do work sessions too. - Have you done a pilot in this new way? - Yes, I have. I've done a few pilots. Yes, so definitely. - Definitely. - A big smile just got crossed up. - I haven't flashbacks. It's a lot of time looking at it as screen to take breaks from my computer. - I have a theory and maybe it's BS. There were pilots that are now series that were filmed during COVID under the strictest regulations. I was missing some chemistry between the actors. And I was thinking about it. Well, they did not read in person. - Yeah, that's interesting. - They weren't getting to know each other in person. They weren't having cast dinners. It was a show that was shot on location. So much of that, when you're away from your normal people, you're really hanging out with the friends you make on set. - Yeah. - I was missing some of that. This for memes to be a byproduct of filming pilots during COVID is one that I'm speaking of in particular. - Uh-huh. - One that was on Netflix. When I was watching those actors, they were all fabulous actors. - Yeah. - Every time I'm by themselves, fabulous. No one gels. And that occurred to me. This was being filmed during COVID. I cannot imagine sort of the stress in the actor. I don't want to say there's a lack of chemistry. It's like a lack of comfortability. - Yeah. - Or ease that normally comes with actors that have been working. That's where I came out. I'm so happy that there's new shows to watch and to be able to see these actors do things. I cannot imagine the stress on set. You were working on series then. Same with me. A lot of our jobs, unfortunately, became being the COVID police. It was in incredibly stressful time. - Yeah, everything. - That's an interesting point. I've seen that. And I don't know if it was a missed opportunity in a chemistry read while they were casting pilots, but I've definitely couples that were cast where there's just not that chemistry that you would expect in a TV series and it's like a lead. Love trying, well, that isn't a lot of a series. I'm not sure if that wasn't just found or if those were just casting choices. Personally, for me, when I've done chemistry reads over Zoom, I'm able to see whether there's chemistry or not and still feel that energy when actors are playing off each other. It's still been pretty clear over Zoom, which I'm glad. - I don't think on the shows that we were fortunate to work on together and we just saw the cast become family so quickly and we got to see those beautiful friendships that were formed and cast really care about each other and support each other and care about the work that they were doing. It's just a beautiful thing to see time and time again on the shows we were able to do together. - It's just a life reminder of what a gift it is to be able to be with people again. - Yeah. - To be with friends again and to make things. (laughing) - But the chemistry is really important. I remember when we were working on the Bulltype, the pilot and the friendships that were formed with our three girls on there. - Yes. And that's a beautiful example. I went to a dinner yesterday and there was a TV director there and she said, oh my God, did you work on the Bulltype? I said yes. - Yes. - Oh my God. - Katie Stevens, 'cause she had worked with Katie on something. She was talking about that cast and I said, one of the things that's so beautiful and gratifying. Listen, it was entirely up to the women that are the actresses to form those friendships. But the gratifying part is feeling a little bit like matchmakers that they have. - I know. - It's a beautiful friendship. - It is really fun to see and know that the chemistry was right. I would quite a few chemistry reads for those really characters on that. - Yes. - And with Megan Feige, love relationship, and it wound up being Mr. Sam Page, the lovely and wonderful Mr. Sam Page. That's a perfect example of men that came and read, all did great jobs, but there was something different between Megan and Sam in that scene that everyone in the room went, that's it. - It's also just fun to watch the fans ship these relationships and get early into that. - On ads to the success of the show is when people film bested and are fighting for couples to be together. I love reading the message boards on those types of people. - You keep out of the message boards. - I totally do. I wanna know who they're excited about. - Yeah. - I'm curious what are you watching now? - What's on your mind? - Still around quite a bit. Some of the shows that I really enjoyed, and I watched them in different orders, but severance was something that I really enjoyed. The dropout, I've been catching up on succession a little bit behind on that one. - When you say a bit behind, are you like in the latest season, or are you? - Oh no, I'm in, I'm like the end of season two. - Yeah, I've got a ways to go. - I know. - Damn. It's so dysfunctional. - Damn, it gets so good. I went home years ago, my folks are in Jersey. It was the end of season three, maybe, the cliffhound. So I hadn't seen my parents in a year. My father comes and picks me up at the airport. It's like an hour drive to get to their house. I walk into the house, my mom is sitting in the living room and she's the first thing she has to me. Oh my God, have you seen succession? - It's such a great cast on that show. It also depends on the mood that I'm in too. If I'm in debt, comedies, or something light, loot is something perfect if you're in the light. - Yeah. - Recently I've been doing some true crime stories with Lifetime and it's been a lot of fun. I just got on that rabbit hole learning these stories. So I did one on Sherry Pockini and then Kara Robinson. I ended up watching "Unbelievable," which is about three or four years old, that was on Netflix. And I could never get myself in the headspace to watch that. I knew there were such great performances and I really wanted to see it. I thought, okay, well, I've already gone down to the rabbit hole of doing research on these characters and these stories. And so I binged it in about a day and a half. It took me a while to shake it off. It was pretty heavy, but those-- - Marit, no gosh. - Oh, God. - "Hateland Ever." - Yeah. - Is it Tony Colette? - Yes, Tony Colette. - Oh my God, I love this performance. - Every woman in that series, they just ate. - The way they captured some unique perspectives on being a female and going through something like that and how the responses of the detectives was a little bit more unique than things that we've got to see when we're watching them. So I had taken a while to bounce back, and that was pretty heavy, but it was definitely entertained by it. - Yeah, I just finished the last season of "Rommie" last night. Oh my gosh. - I have not-- - That's on my list. - Oh. I loved it. I loved it. Also, the latest season of Atlanta, we're recording this October 10, 2022. So episode four of the latest season of Atlanta. Uh-huh. Every single guest star and co-star is incredible. They were so good and so real. Yeah. The show that I made note of. Oh, I love that. Who is that person? Who is that woman that just said three lines? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Good and it went across the board. I've definitely done that to start going on IMDB. And who was that? What have they done? Yeah. That's what we're trying to do. I love that your casting brain is still young. Of course it's always. It's always. Yeah. I love actors. And also. This is so important. These stories are helping. There. Whether it's for filling time or really touching hearts right before we got on the phone. I'm going to read this to you. So I have a friend who is in the inheritance at the death end right now. And I was looking at Facebook today and a friend of a friend posted this. The inheritance is two parts, right? A part one or two. He had just seen part two of the inheritance. Second night in a row at the Geffen Playhouse to see the second night, part two of Matthew Lopez's The Inheritance. Six hours of glorious life-changing theater. The comparisons to angels in America are justified. But the inheritance is its own life-affirming, heartbreaking, comedic, tear-generating creature. The end of last night's performance was one of the most thrilling, unforgettable moments I've experienced. Even as the cast left the stage and the audience was heading back to the lobby, I saw a group of young men standing in their now empty row silently holding on to each other, comforting one of their group with hugs. This is what theater can do and this is why we need theater more now than ever right now. I love that. And I was so struck. First of all, how beautiful. I screenshot it and said it to my friend right away. He has in the past two, three years also have the bumpy up and downs of what it is. Me and actor having to take supplemental jobs. Getting excited about a recurrent show. Having to go through all that COVID that was really hard. The show shut down for the whole thing. Now he is in a play. And this is how it affected someone. And to me, the beauty of this man sharing how affected he was, but then also how affected and moved he was by seeing the other people in a younger generation moved by the story. That is beautiful. And this is why I wanted to have these conversations to encourage actors. It is tough out there. Even as casting directors, when we are looking for our next gig. It is just similar thing when I started taking generals with different networks and studios and execs. It helped me understand what it was like sitting out in the waiting room waiting to have an audition and those nerves at UGAR. We experienced that as well when we are interviewing for projects. But it is tough and you have to find ways to keep moving forward and do things that you enjoy as one has a balanced life doing other things as well. And in between, I think a lot of people don't really realize how difficult it is to keep moving forward in this industry. And as a creative, whether you are a casting director or a actor or performer, as a creative and an artist, you feel fulfilled when you are able to practice your craft. In between times, there is a lot of them when you are not able to. And the real life, real world worries of making money, paying your bills, the part of feeling affirmed and validated and chosen and accepted when you are actually able to be in the role and work and do your thing. It is a tricky thing and you are exactly right. How else do you fulfill yourself? How else do you nurture yourself? How do you nurture yourself on the days that feel really tough when you are not working or when you feel discouraged or even when you are working and you feel like you are not getting it and not doing your best work? And as casting directors, that is a really good insight. And there are days where you are working on a role that you just can't get, you can't get your arms around it. It is not working, you feel like it is not clicking and then you feel shitty. There is a lot of pressure to get that role and deliver. And sometimes you have to step away for a minute and take a break and then come back in and you can get burnt out if you are not doing other things and taking care of yourself, a lot of self care. For me personally a lot of walks along the beach. And I am doing time with friends and nurturing those relationships and family are really important. Doing things that I enjoy just keeps me in a positive mindset. You can go down that rabbit hole and just waiting and we are just getting burnt out on something. If you are solely just focused on casting at the tough life. Yeah for sure. It is all encompassing an old demanding job too right? It is a 24-saving job. Now that everything is electronic, we are on call all the time. It requires really being strict with yourself about care time, about your downtime, about your friend time, whatever it is. You have got to set boundaries for sure. Otherwise you are going to be casting through the night watching self tips and the night. I want to ask you a question. What do you love about casting? What are the parts that feel especially yummy to you? I think the most obvious one for me is discovering new talent, doing those long searches and then finally coming across someone that you are really excited about. To me that has been the most rewarding thing as I look back at my career. Also working on content and stories that I know are having an impact on people as an artist. That is something that is really important. Seeing the reaction of it and just I love watching the passion of creators when they are creating the content and hearing about the purpose of their stories and what they come from. I think that is really important. Also the day-to-day I am discovering talent and watching demos and having a lot of conversations with the ages and manners and taking chances on people. I have conversations with an agent and maybe I won't think the actors write and they will send me about five or six different self tapes. This is learning to be open and take chances. There is times when I could be wrong. So having those relationships about seeing back on each other and taking chances is a lot better. You are speaking to your curiosity in the process. If you see someone that you are like, "There is something, I am not sure." And you really allow yourself the time and space to be curious and to learn. That is a really special and big thing. Yeah, it is something that I do definitely enjoy. A lot of times when we are in the process of casting, the scripts change so much. By the time a show airs and watching the final product of an episode or a film and seeing the changes that were made. I love that we have that. These shows and these films will be there forever to look back on. It is something that people will be able to watch as time goes by. I like that being able to have that confidence. I was just reminded of a time when we were testing on a show. There was someone that you were really behind. I was like, "Good, but I am just not sure." And you were advocated. And you were 100%. That is a question that comes up from actors too. Does a casting director have the power to advocate? And it was an actor that you had advocated for. With the producers, the producers 100% got it. The person came into test and that was a situation where maybe it wasn't their best audition. Yeah. And I was responding to what was in the room and you said, "Nope." Watch this and you were right. And that speaks to how your curiosity and openness and homework really worked to help get that person the job. And now they're working nonstop. I just get so excited and passionate about someone when I feel that they're right for the role. And it lays a lot in conversations that having with producers and directors gets our job to educate them on actors' work, showing demos, and doing our old research as you mentioned about actors and educating them on the work that they've done and just why we think that they're right for them. I think our opinions are so important. Yeah. And there's times that we've been in the trenches together fighting for someone. Oh my gosh. Yes. Many. It's great when it works. I have an actress girlfriend asked this question. I would love it. You are take on it. Sure. Her question was something to the tune of, "If I get an audition and I just know I'm not right for this, should I tape anyway? Or is it okay to pass? What is your opinion about that?" I would say that if they receive an appointment, it's for a reason. There's, can be information on my end that they're not aware of. Or if they have specific questions asked, "Has have their reps called us?" and say, "Hey, so and so, I was not feeling the right about this role. Why should they go on tape for this?" And actually that happens quite a bit if there are questions about it or doubts. I'm happy to explain that to their reps. Obviously if an actor is not comfortable with the material or if they're not feeling like they're going to be able to give their all. If that happens, we have actors a lot of times when the appointments come out, pass on material. If they're not comfortable with it or they feel like they can't do the role justice, then they definitely should pass. Certainly actors sometimes will look at material and go, "I can't find my way into this. If you can't find your way in." Yeah. That's different. I don't know if I'm right. So yes, ask. Always ask. And trust that they're set up for a reason and we see potential in it. A lot of times when a role is described on a breakdown, there's room for expansions on that character. I think if there's someone really special and they bring something to it, a lot of times other producers are open to adjusting that role. And there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that they have to be aware of as to whether it's. So I just got your learning real time too. So from the time the breakdown description went out to after weeks of reading and watching tapes, your learning more about what works as well too. Yeah. There's a number of times when a role was written a certain way and then we ended up casting someone outside the box for it and it turned out to be a great thing. You're sharing so many beautiful gems dev. Your time and access to you and feeling what a wonderful human being you are really is really helpful and your expertise and your experience absolutely. It's a big deal. What's the best thing that's happened to you in the past week or the thing that's made you the most happy in the past week. Well, for those that know me well, my huge football fan and I just one of those things that I used to just kind of watch one team and then during COVID it became something that I really got entertained with and started watching a lot of games. So I'm a huge Tom Brady, Lux fan and they had a great game last night. That ice puts me in a good mood. It takes me really happy. I get into it. I get excited about football. It works. It works for that community as well. It is. Yeah, I'm just I get passionate about teams that I get behind in support. Another thing is I just rescued a dog recently, sweet Chrissy in a few weeks and just watching her personality evolve and warm up and that's something day to day. That just continues to smile on my face to see. So that's a daily good thing. It just I feel like it's daily working on my heart and just so many ways that it's just it's so rewarding. So I think it's the beginning that you had done a panel with aspiring young casting directors. What advice do you have for someone that would like to get involved in casting 20 years ago? Would we were starting you were in paid in turn? That's what you learned because you can't go to school to learn how to cast its job training. Thank goodness you can no longer be unpaid. Yeah, but it's also made access more difficult. What would your advice be for people that are interested in getting into casting? Yeah, that's a good question. Gosh, there's so many things that go on in that process. An important thing is knowing what type of progress you want to work on. When that comes in time as you're watching shows and just figuring out what speaks to you. When you're looking to get into casting and working off this is I think it's really important to choose an office that works on the type of shows that you want to get into. That's an important path you should take. Also a lot of stuff is going to get the run at you when you're starting off in an office as you've assisted. Looking back, I remember feeling so overwhelmed with the number of actors that were out there and trying to see if I can keep track of them and get familiar with actors and get to a place where I felt comfortable and confident enough to set up a session. I definitely remember a moment and this is back then when there weren't 50 different networks or streamers out there. It's definitely grown, but I remember having a moment where I felt like, okay, I'm starting to get a sense of the actors learning them and feeling comfortable with the number of actors that I knew. Two things, understanding the process and why you're doing the steps that you're doing. As things are getting thrown at you, I think it's important to take notes on those things and really understand the order of things that are done in the process. Otherwise, you're just caught up in getting a lot of past done. I think it really helps to learn the casting process that way. It was a helpful thing for me. I remember taking notes and just understanding why steps are being done and how to handle a situation. Now that everyone's working remotely, I think also just learning how to send a really professional email when you're checking a veils or setting up appointments. The way that you present yourself, I think that back then our phones are reading on stop and we were doing a lot of stuff on the phone and now everything's pretty much done by an email over Zoom. So being thorough, asking all the questions that need to be done and making sure that you're really communicating with the cast director that you're working with. If the actor is not confirmed for a session, letting them know is really important. But also keeping lists of actors when you're watching shows, making notes, keeping lists of them, building your database, like I said, I think that's an important thing even as lists are being done in the office start, make your own list of actors and come up with your own ideas and don't just be a doer of past, understand what you're doing and why and I think that will help grow. That was so well said. Thank you for the answer. Working as a casting assistant, as a casting associate, as a casting director is a gigantic workload of pushing communication and information. You have to be highly organized, very detailed oriented. This is for the assistant and the associate also is a casting director, be able to track people, be a fan of actors, love watching things. I remember interviewing for assistants several years ago when someone came in and they really wanted to be in a casting executive office, but they didn't watch television. That's not that's not helpful. I think you got the wrong gig and perhaps they had more of a idea that the job was more glamorous than it actually. Oh, yeah, that's like it seems so it seems like cool and red carpets know it is so much it is so much work and it's getting a little better, but by and large casting directors are the first ones to get blamed and the last ones to be thanked. You really need to love what you're doing. You brought up a great point earlier and I think it's one of the things that you do so beautifully and served you so well in your career, as well as your actors you're bringing in and the producers you're working for. My advice for someone that is coming up on the casting side of things is build your relationship. I was noticing that's the way the world is now that a lot of assistants were just emailing or even trainees to be executives or casting associates under me. They say well, I emailed and blah, blah, blah. Did you pick up the phone? Did you share your voice seeing these relationships are going to help you in the future when perhaps there's an actor that doesn't want to come in and you can call and explain why they should come in. I will help you when you need that agent to help close a deal that perhaps is a little bit difficult to close sharing yourself as a human being. Yes, this is a business, but the reminder of especially for casting directors is we're here because we want the actors to win and we want our producers to win and feel great about the people that are in their project telling their story sharing their words. It's so important to build your relationships if it's an annoying virtual zoom coffee. Do it casting assistants do it. It's going to serve you. Absolutely does. There are a lot of agents and managers that we look back on when we were assistants back in the day and we've built these great relationships and they definitely were able to do favors for each other and help each other out. I think that it's just really valid to have those relationships and that agent then can call you because they have the relationship. It goes both ways. Yeah, for everyone in the business building relationships, being a class act goes a long way. Absolutely. Deb, thank you so much for your time. I'm your welcome. I'm actually being here and for sharing your and for sharing yourself with me today. I can't thank you enough. I'm so pleased. You're so welcome. It was fun. Oh, good. See, it wasn't terrible. When the intention is to help people and to give artists information, it's a little easier and there's so much information here. Yeah, I hope that it is helpful. Well, but a little bit out of my comfort zone, but it's good to do every now and then. Yeah, it's been this mentoring program has just been it's been so rewarding and I just love paying for it. I had to celebrate mentors. I got my start and casting. They were just so generous with the information and it was helpful to help me grow. There's a lot of things that we learn, especially in our first 10 years, which is it's so easy to get lost in the job and to and have it be your identity. I never just socially going out and everyone would ask me what projects are you looking on and my friends would be like no one cares about my job. It's just the thing that easily become your identity. And I have a lot of people in cast learn that lesson early on when we're in the industry and putting in all those hours. How important is to have a balanced life and take time for yourself. Take those vacations, get away. That's a big thing that I started doing is just making sure that I get away done island at least one three years. It's just decompressed and it helps you know just do I drive better. Yes, I know I have I've got it. I've got to get back on traveling after this pandemic. I haven't done it yet. So I'm due. I went to Italy with my mom in April. We had planned a trip throughout Julia. We planned to go. Oh, of course, March of 2020. Then it got shut down. So we went in April. I'm a dual citizen. I'm a Italian citizen. I'm an American citizen. So that was wonderful. And then I wound up going back. I went to Rome and it was way too hot. But who cares? Because I was in Rome in in July. And it was really wonderful. I got to get away. So figure out that ocean vacation. What is this mentoring program through? Is it CSA? It's through CSA. This is my first year doing it and it's definitely something I'm going to continue doing. I really just enjoyed getting to know my mentees. I say is the casting society of America. A lion share of the casting directors are members of CSA. And they've been doing a lot of good work trying to figure out how to educate a new generation of people that want to be in casting. And also casting by and large was a lot of white people. A lot of white casting directors. And so really trying to change that as well. It's access. It's giving access as as a woman of color. I'm curious to know how that informs. your work and your desire to mentor young people. - Yeah, I think that in casting, I'm a graphic graduate from college and it's trying to explain to my parents what my job was and what I was doing. And my mother wanted me to go on to grad school. I think it was an interesting entertainment law and she's just like, "Are you sure you don't want to go to grad school?" She's first generation Korean for generation out here. She didn't really understand it. And so I think that she's just not as familiar as the processing casting and just the hours that I'm doing, the type of pain, what it is like when you're starting out. And a lot of times we can be encouraged to go into a field with medical or law and so forth. So I think a lot of people just aren't really aware of what casting directors do and what a career in casting can do. I remember my mom just taking her a while to get behind it when I understand what I'm doing and explaining it to her. But yeah, my mom came out here and I watched her as a child there and up, started her own business while she was still learning English and just knowing that she can do that. And they taught me that I could do anything that just if I believed in myself and kept working. I had no excuse 'cause my mom watching my mom could not hear and do that while she's still learning English and they really spoke to me when I was young and I was and just helped me be very clear on what it is. That's how it's had an impact on me. And obviously I can bring that perspective when I'm on a show casting Asian Americans and just what it's like growing up in an Asian home and what the experience are like. When we cast Sherry Cola and I remember auditioning and I put it on the side block top of my head. But I remember having conversations with a lot of young Asian they delighted so much to the sides in so many ways and just with that dynamic it's like on having an Asian mother. I specifically remember casting that process having just so many wonderful conversations with it with the actors that came in for that role. What the personal experience was like and I was able to share it behind as well. I was fun to bring that insight into that role and the cast team. - Yes, you know of course, Ali Maki but she started Asian American Girl Club several years ago and that has taken off as a-- - I see, yeah. - Sherry and Artin and all of these wonderful actresses that we know became part of it with her as well as people that are not in the business. To see the reach of that and to see that take off and the thirst for that pride and visibility. - I love that. I love seeing those friendships for you. - And then they're popping up in indie movies together and making projects together. - Yeah, and I think that it's also exciting to see a lot of them having a drive to create their own content and open up those doors. So I think a lot of that's gonna look forward to a lot of the projects that are gonna come out of that. I'm just, for sure. - For sure. Do you remember Winorath the one of the good trouble? Was it one of our rap parties that we were at? Oh gosh, I'm kind of a member where we were. But I remember at the end of the night we were talking to you and you said to make sure you get a great photo of all these people because they're gonna take off. I remember that. I still have that photo. And we were just so excited about the cast and it was just fun to know that. - These projects are our babies. - They really are. And I'm fortunate to have gotten I had a great time with you, and all the support that you gave us. And the chances that you took and just really fighting for these actors that you really instrumental in a lot of those conversations and helping us get deals closed and you always been such a great advocate. So really grateful. - That's really generous of you to say, look, get to give actors opportunities to audition when we get to hire people and give the creative and the financial opportunity. That's one of the best things, but I think the really best thing is when an actor feels fully expressed in a role. And they also get to have that feedback. That's why I share that post with you. Listen, I'm a child of Sesame Street. - I love that. - I'm a child of Mr. Rogers and I'm a child of the Muppet Show. And that to me is though, that's what I wanted to work on what Sesame Street was doing and still does, right? Was revolutionary, was important. And ends like the Ricky Thompson story. You have so many, you have so many of those. And the experience that you shared when you were auditioning for the Sherry Colour All in good trouble as a woman in the AAPI community and as a casting director, being able to create the space for all of those actresses that were coming in and be able to talk about what it meant, sharing yourselves in the professional capacity, but also really the personal capacity. This is a business. You have to run a business mind, but it's also so personal. - Yeah, yeah, it's definitely true. - And I know that there's some of those actresses are like, Deb George, when I went in and had that conversation was able to feel seen, gave me a little effort and encouraged me to keep going. - Yeah, I definitely hope so. Something that is important to me, just giving back and we all need it. We all need that encouragement. And we could say something on the day that might ask people to come back and tell me things from 10 years ago that they remember being told me. Just never know what people are going through on that day, the impacts and words of encouragement can have. - Yes, yes. My meditation teacher, David G, talks about the power of your ripple. And that's exactly right. The text you send to a friend that says, I just saw you in the Domino's commercial, "Rock on." - Yeah. - Or, "I love seeing you in that episode of, this is us." That's great. So proud of you. Or you mean a lot to me, I'm so glad we're friends. Like the owning the power of your ripple and be aware of that in the business and in this work. We've had actors that come in an audition that impact us. - Absolutely. - Also just inspire us to be creative as well. - Yes. - When you work with producers, where you're inspired by their kindness or their openness or their creativity, it's really gratifying. - I'm grateful to be able to have been in the room and just see a lot of some of those conversations behind closed doors and learning about their vision. And it's just been a lot of those conversations behind the doors that people aren't aware of and be able to our day to day. You really have that, you really have that gift of nurturing others. And it's just kind of a natural thing for you. It's a word that you speak and just your energy. - Deb, you have meant so much to so many people in your work and given so many jobs and so many opportunities. And that's a big deal. I remember being really down a couple of years ago, doing an especially hard time at work. The projects where you're working with people that you're on the same page and you're in flow. No matter how hard a role is to cast, it's still good going, right? A lot of projects are not like that. And certainly on the executive side, there's just so many more moving parts. I remember being really discouraged and was really like, what am I even doing? What am I giving back to the world? And my father said to me, the people that you've been able to, this is definitely not going to podcast, but look at the shows you've helped put on the air. Look at the actors you've advocated for. And when I was hired at ABC Family, was right when Grayson Adamy came out. - What? - Chonda Rhymes and I looked at that cast and I went, oh, that's the world. That's what I want to continue to create. So when we cast Greek, which was really the first show that popped up, the showrunner was like, this is what we're going to do. And that's how it was cast. And then that's how they wrote it. And, heret. - Right. - It's so sweet when we went from there. And it was beautiful when it's baked in. It needs to be written in non-traditional way. And I think a lot of the projects that we've worked on, we had producers that wrote to it or wrote it in a way where they could create it to the person that won the role and their lived experiences. And that's really beautiful to be able to work on those. - It is beautiful and it gives us a little more freedom when they're casting, she's a lot more open, knowing that they may respond to this person even though it's outside the box. And that, I think that kind of helped us to create our mentality when we're looking for people to be open. The producers on the foster group are really great at that. And they're passionate for the roles in the concept, character development and just the complexity of relationships and families that were dynamic. That's something that in storytelling and you look at on projects is something that's drawn to. Just really good to know these characters of their experiences. - Yeah. - That impacted them. - Yeah. Well, Deb, thank you so much for sharing yourself. I'm really grateful to you. And thank you for sharing your ripple with us today too. - You're so welcome. (upbeat music) - Isn't she just a delight? I am so grateful to Deb for sharing her time and her experience. Deb is cool if you would like to contact her directly. Her contacts are in the notes of this episode. I hope you have a lovely day today. I hope you share the love today. I hope you tell someone that you appreciate them today. Thank you for listening. Please share this podcast on your socials and with any actors you think would dig it. See you next time. (upbeat music)