Off Book: Conversations with Casting Directors / Michael Testa / Episode 102

(upbeat music) My name is Elizabeth Boykevich. My friends call me EB, so that means you can call me EB as well. I am so glad you're here. I spent the last 20 years in entertainment first working in casting for theater, TV, and film. Most recently, I was the head of casting and talent while helping build two TV networks and brands at the Walt Disney Company. I am a leadership coach and facilitator. I'm a mindfulness guide, and I am a human being trying my best to human well. I dig all things around growth, creativity, curiosity, and storytelling. I realized there wasn't a place where actors could get to know casting directors and ask questions for free, so here we are. We collected over a hundred questions from actors and will be answering them alongside a different casting colleague each episode. A giant thank you to everyone who submitted questions. Links to submit a question for the podcast and our guests can be found in the notes section of each episode. I hope this supports and encourages you on your acting journey. I love you. Keep going. The world needs your voice and your creativity. Welcome to Off Book. (upbeat music) Please enjoy New Jersey's own, the wonderful, vigenerous, the hilarious Michael Testa. Talking to this man makes my Jersey accent slip out. Michael's casting career spans over 33 years. He has cast major network television, cable and streaming series, both comedy and drama, and many, many, many films. As a reminder, links to contact Michael on Instagram and to submit questions for future episodes or in the notes section of this episode. Here we go. Thanks for doing that, thanks for having me. I'm very excited. You're the greatest. You're the best. Well, I love you. I love you. I love you. I'm so pretty. All right, thank you. I was thinking a couple of weeks ago. I love actors and I love casting directors, but really was thinking about what can be of service, what's helpful. And I think I shared some of this with you. There really isn't a place where it's two casting directors talking, right? Where we can share and we have people can hear and listen to you. And we have the knowledge from being behind the doors for me, network, studio, also with directors and producers and you as an online casting director for how many years have you been doing this? Casting? Yeah. Well, I started casting in the beginning of '90, when I first went out here as an intern, as a full-fledged casting director, since '98. I was doing it for an intern assistant and associate for 10 years. So it's been, it's '93, like, 33 years. I'm so glad that you were willing to give up some time and share your knowledge and expertise in your experience. I think it's a good way for actors to be informed about a lot of stuff. But what I find is casting plays such an important role in actors' lives, but they don't know anything about it, really. That sort of mythical thing that's out there that they know they have some press, but they don't know what we think, how the inner working, what's going on. And I think that's a good thing to demystify. Absolutely. And also that you're a person. Right, right, right. We're all a person too. I always tell actors, I can't survive without actors. And guess what? Actors really can't survive without cast actors. It's a mutual beneficial relationship that each of us holds, I always say, equal power in the sense. I'm surprised that actors are surprised to hear that casting directors are singing for their separate, too. It's a full-fledged. It's a freelance world. You have to go in an audition for the gig, too. Unless it's a long-established relationship that then you become their person. Right. And it's anything that actors once they establish themselves and they work a lot with their combination of, oh, I got offered this role because I worked with that directory for or after I audition. The paths are actually very similar as they move along in time, I think. Would you share where you grew up a little bit of who you were as a younger person and what got you into the business? That's a whole other podcast. What up Jersey? Yes, why I was born in New Jersey. I lived in New Jersey for 18 years. And that's my phone that I have to shut off. So I grew up in New Jersey. I was born in New Jersey. I lived there for 18 years. Went to an all-boys Catholic school, not the right half. You would say for something like this. I was lucky enough that my Catholic school seat and all prep at my ninth grade English teacher who was a great fabulous, who's wonderful, like odd guy, but just knew what he was talking about and really was inspiring in terms of learning decided to open up a film class, a cinema class at an all-boys Catholic school for my sophomore, junior and senior years. And he encouraged me to take it. I did. It was great because there's only like five people in the class each year. And he knew what he was talking about. And he knew his stuff. He knew more than a lot of the professors in college. And it was a wonderful training grab in terms of film, the entertainment industry, in both the technical aspects, but also film history, film theory. And it was really very inspiring. And then I went and I saw the shining. And I really solidified that I don't care what I do to have to do something to do with that, that I'm seeing up on the screen. I wanted to work on the shining. Well, it's shining a bit all any of the film. I shut this thing off. Is it Eric again? Yeah. I'll get a text him and tell him to knock it off. Can you do that? Because my phone shut off. And thank you. So then I just saw that and knew I wanted to work in there. I had always been into movies and love movies and the whole thing and storytelling. And I wrote a little bit as a kid in high school in junior high. But that really just pushed it over the instrument. Because I was a voracious reader as a kid. And I read the shining really, really early on. It was one of my favorite books. And then to see it up on screen and such a sort of majestic, huge fashion. Just really was overwhelming for me. And so then I decided to pursue it in college afterwards. I applied it to different places. I chose Northwestern. So and that's where I studied film. And they've got a great theater program too. Well, see, that's the difference. I was never into the theater. I was never a performer. I never wanted to get into that. And I know that's the background of a lot of cast directors. Yeah. Wonderful. But I get a tag casting from a very production storytelling background as opposed to a performance background. I look for the best performance that fits whatever I'm casting. And sometimes there's a difference. So I continue my studies in film. And Northwestern was very film theory film history forward. It wasn't very, very big on production as much as like USC, some of the other places. So that's what I was always the deficit. So when I left college, I actively thought that I have to get some sort of like production experience. And the day I got back, they were filming a shoot. There's a film shooting like a cross-street from where I lived in the best part of New Jersey. And then my dad says, oh, by the way, you have a job working on that film. I'm like, I do. He's like, yeah, I got it. And how he got the job. I grew up in the land of sopranos, that kind of area. Yes. And they're very Jersey Italian. Very Jersey. In fact, my neighbors brought up for Pinky and Dennis soprano. Oh, wow. Dennis's brother was Tony soprano who was the consultant with David Chase on the show. And then my dad says, yeah, what happens? My uncle, Michael Freddie, who's not a blood, but you know, uncle and he was the chief of police of West Orange. And he called the production basically, I won't give you your permits unless you give my nephew a job. So that's how I got my first job on a film set. I think Uncle Freddie. And I was a PA and I kind of hated it. I mean, I hate to say that, but I did because I'm also not a set person. I don't get excited by sets. I kind of get a little bored because I think as a cast director, I think most of us are a bit of a control freak. And we like to mold the world and mold the people that we're putting in films. And then we like, and as a PA and a film, you have the least amount of control. And, but this is a very long-winded story. Everybody, but I'm sorry. And then I became friends with the writer director of this movie. And he employ me. He had a small little production company. And I knew for some reason I had to put together press kits and post for films. He employed me to put together the press kit for this movie. And then we went on and we wrote a film together that almost got made out here. Somebody bought it. And then he left to become an advertising creative director. He hired me to be the advertising copywriter for this advertising company. There was heavy into bank and real estate ads. I wrote bank ads and real estate ads for film TV and video, little video packets and whatnot. And I won a couple of national awards. I was actually pretty good at it. I just hated it too. You know, when you're doing something that's not right for you, it's, it's, I'm lucky enough in terms of my mind or my motivation. If I find myself in that position, I get myself out of it really quickly. I don't want to be stuck in that area because I think it's a little bit soul-crushing. I'm not doing what I want to do. And so I got out of that and I decided if I had to be in the entertainment industry, since I had to move to Los Angeles. It was my day. So I drove into the hip water. So you got to LA and what was your first casting gig? So my first casting gig was an intern at a production company called Stephen Cattle Productions. Before those of you don't know, Stephen Cattle was one of the most prolific television producers ever studied him in college. He did shows like 21 Jump Street and Booker Hunter, Wise Guy. 18, all these, 18 was his, it was partly his, a whole bunch of it when I sort of work, they had seven shows on the air. There was an in house casting office with seven full-time casting directors, a head of casting and his associate. And it's just so funny was how I got the job. I drove out here at the end of Thanksgiving of '89. I interviewed at Stephen Cattle the very beginning of '90. So it was only a matter of being out here for, and I actually flew back for Christmas. So that was only out here for three weeks before I got the interview. Nice interview, you dress up, give you resume, everybody's up there. I remember in the waiting room, there was like three or four other people and I go in and then meet the associate, got the first thing I was sharing, I can't think of realising. But the head of casting at the time was Simon Air. And so she asked all the normal questions, blah, blah, and then she says, oh, I have to ask you for you leave. Do you cry easily? (laughs) I said, no, why are you asking me that? And she says, well, Simon made the last intern cry and she blow up and it was a big to do. And I just really just can't go through that again. It was a big mess. And I offhandedly had a remark and I just said, listen, before he makes me cry, I'll take that chair over there and bash her over his head. And she literally went, you're hired. I'm like, (laughs) I was like, huh? And she was, you're hired. I was like, you start clinging, you start my name. I'm like, yeah, but like, and I'm like, don't you wonder interview the other people out there? Like, no, no, we need an Italian street tougher than she. She did not like him and she thought of somebody standing up to him, I think it was, I think in her eyes made her life easier in a sense. And the Aaron, I think is, I'm friends with Simon to live this day. He's just got a really bizarre sense of humor and he just wants people to laugh at him and with him the whole thing, and he's a constant joke color, very dry, very sarcastic. And I responded to that supercumerate. I remember as an intern just laughing all the time with him. And I got along with all the other cast members and then I was put on, when a slot opened up for the last season of Hunter, cast member of Susan Scutter, who was wonderful and very nice and just completely nurturing, asked me to come aboard as he assisted. - We, Hunter was Fred, Julian, and I, and Stephanie Kramer, but Stephanie Kramer is left. So we added Lauren Lane to the last episode. - Yes, yes. When Mike, did you start going out on your own? - I'm pretty much, I mean, I finished when I got like, well, because I think that they were downsizing the department, Stephen Kendall, having a show, the TV production was changing, it was going much more sort of corporate in terms of the bigger studios. So then I started just kicking around doing different jobs as assistants, I worked for, Simon has assisted in a movie that he did afterwards and then his now wife, but another cast and director, Beth Himes and then a couple of shows that she was doing. And then they both asked me to come aboard as he so-shed with another cast and so-shed named Peggy Kennedy Godluster, she was so sweet. Peggy and I were the associates on the last season of LA Law. Then I did the rounds of an associate, you know, how that goes, you go around, at least some Miller, Katz, who's a fantastic cast and director as well. She worked at Stephen Kendall, or like six months that I was there. And so she was off as she was cast, and I'll never forget it was the last season of Fresh Prince of Bel Air, the Fox show space above and beyond, if you don't remember that show. - Yes. - And she was doing a pilot called Everybody Loves Raymond. And she asked me to come with her for at least a year because she had so many projects and she needed some of the, she knew and she liked. So my last associate gig was on the pilot for Everybody Loves. How to wonderful time. It was great. It was very nurturing. It's you and I know when a network is behind a show, especially a pilot, you feel it. You do it. - Yes, for sure. - And there was just a love fest with that show from the very beginning. And did that cast come together at the very beginning? Did you have any, did you have to make any adjustments or replacing? - As pilots go back when pilot season was a thing, pilots were the hardest things to cast because everybody's bucking for the same talent. Everybody's in a panic. Everybody wants to done it. Tomorrow it's a feeding frenzy. - And it's when every actor wanted to do network television. There was a lot of money in it. The orders were really big. - Right. And in our benefit at the time, we were not looking for the traditional sort of networkied lead cast. So we have to give it quirky brother than the older parents. And the, I might not be in the hardest role, was the wife, her stebra. The one that took them the most. - When you do pilots, I found that once you have the first one, when you have someone to build around. - Anchor, build around. - And to anchor it, that informs it. - Ray came with that. It was built around his comedy. And one of the things I had worked with Phil Rosenfall, there's a list of them, one of the nicest people in Hollywood, Phil Rosenfall's in the top 10. And he had, was a producer and a producer on a show that I cast with Beth Himeson as the assistant called Down the Shore. This was his show. So I felt very familiar walking into this place. So I knew Phil and he was spearheading it. And I knew he was a really super nice guy. In terms of a pleasant experience, in terms of casting, they were always starts from the top down. - Yes. - The top really is there and pleasant and nice and workable and creative. It just all trickles down. - Yes. For casting, for everything in the production, absolutely. There's that expression, the fish stinks from the head. - I've been really lucky in my career that for the majority of things that I've done, everybody's been super nice and super cool. And it's been a very pleasurable experience. Of course, there's always some rough patches in there but there. And that cast did come together relatively. The last one to get cast was, was Deborah. It was that Patricia Heat. Just because everybody was really, really focused on that role and not being the traditional, just a wife who hangs around. And we were very conscious. So it was still and even Ray was conscious to make Deborah a real character that could hold her own against the comedy series built around a comedian. - Yes. And back then to have, as you're saying, a fully fleshed out woman. - Exactly. - Where she's just not the like, "Hey, honey, how was you? "Dec." - No, it was a constant battle. Like everybody's very conscious about her, that character, if everybody's filmed with the show. I mean, they do a lot of arguing. And they were very conscious about her not just arguing, just for arguing sake. They were very conscious about whatever, the real arguments and disagreements and fun that happens between real married couples stayed. So it wasn't she was just this like, "Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, "voice in his ear built around." And I think that's what, I think that's the key to the success of the show because every character in that show really is a full out fleshed out character and very relatable. - Well, Ray and Phil really captured the nuances in the everyday reality of marriage, I think. And the funny thing about that, the weird ironic thing about that is, I never went to the tape and the pilot because the day of the taping, I'm driving around in Beverly Hills with my writing partner who moved out here, the one from New Jersey, who went around in Beverly Hills and my car window was open. And I pass a crew chopping down trees or chippin' trees and a piece of the tree went into my eye. It came right into the window and hit my eye, and I went to the eye doctor. And I had to put an eye patch on, take drops and not move my eyes and stay still for the next day and a half. So I missed the taping. I don't remember forget, I saw Phil at the opening to Eyes Wide Shut. At that time, it was a cast miracle, I was doing Roswell. And I go with an agent friend of mine, who takes me to Premiere, which is a big star set event. And I'm sitting down and also I get a tap on my shoulder and it's Phil. And he's like, "What happened to you with the taping "on the pilot?" I was like, "Oh, man, I was my eye." You're never gonna believe this story. - I heard that, but I was like, "You do a thing, it was off." I was like, "As soon as you were done, "you're like, "Okay, I'm outta here." I was like, "No, no, no, I really wanted to go." (laughing) - I love that. You mentioned Roswell, you know what I mean? - That's my very first big TV, actually a big cast job was the original Roswell. - Mm-hmm. - And that was also kind of a fluke. That's why I think it's also very important on an actor's, but anybody in this business is how I have a life, because it makes you more well-rounded person, especially in a town that's built around the entertainment injury. You never know how that's gonna permeate and infiltrate. - Yes. - Inhabit in this, and I had a casting part and at the time, another cast of "Rickman's Dance Shader," we were relatively new. We had a couple of movies and a sort of a very bad cable show, syndicated show, which was awful. And there was a cast director at 20th Century Fox, who I shall remain nameless, because I don't want to disparage her, but it was not a huge fan of hers. And for some reason, she didn't like us, but her big thing was, she loved to discover people. Like, anybody, like they discovered, "Oh, it's covered Brad Pitt. I put him in this." "Oh, I just got this cast writer, put her in that, that was like her thing." So she would meet with everybody, just so she could say, "Oh, I met with them. Yeah, I was instrumental in getting there." I discovered them. - I discovered them. I always loved that to friends. I discovered them. When you walk in and you also are rock, and you turn it over, and I'm like, "Oh my God, there's Brad Pitt." I don't eat the rock. So she calls them, says, "She goes, listen. I'm gonna send you on a job interview. You're never gonna get it." It's a big show. It's too big, but it's good practice for you guys to go meet. They've met everybody. They're meeting every town. Jason wants to meet some more people. And some, I'm sending them. - Jason Cadems. - Jason Cadems, who's a runner. Super, another nice guy. He's in the top 10, too. Of nice people. But you're never gonna get it. And I said, "Durston, why are we going?" Like, I don't understand why we're going. It's good practice. I'm like, "Oh." So we go down 20th century Fox Lops, and I don't even forget, 'cause this is just long hallway. It was off the sort of being pad, long hallway. It was always kind of dark. I mean, assistant leads in there. Jason Cadems sitting down his desk. And earlier, I have a friend named Devon Gumbersol, who I, we priored to this. I put together script reading for it. I got some really nice actors. It was a very well-known book. put together the script reading if I do say something. And I looked at Jason and the first thing I said was they even love it. I have some shaking hand. I'm like, oh my God, you were the guy at my friend Devon Gummersol script reading who like I say you sat in the corner. You didn't talk to anybody. How can we sat in the corner? That was the first thing I said as a math not high how are you? And he's like, wait a minute. No, you put that script reading together because oh my God, I loved everybody in it. And then we started talking. We literally were talking for like 45 minutes about nothing about the show. Nothing about you. Oh, you know, this person has to know that's how we just started talking. And then the last thing he says, so we should talk about the show, but the show I get it. I said, they're aliens in high school, teeny galleonation, they're actually aliens, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he said, well, do you have a we do have like an overriding philosophy about the show? You know, and you know me, I don't I don't think in those terms, I'm very over the moment. And so I'm like, for half a second, my brain's going, oh shit, I better think of something. And I said, well, what I would do is every role that we cast. And I started using a we right away. It's every role that we cast, even from one lineers, you should make everybody viewing it. Think, oh, are they an alien too? Are they oh, so I said, so something should be slightly off about everybody that we cast. And he's like, okay, I kind of like that. All right, great. A minute later in the car on the way back that cast in her after calls up, she goes, I don't know what you did or how you did it. But you got the job she was pissed. Like she was mad. I'm like, why are you mad? Like she was like, she was extra mad that we got to jump. This has come up into some of my other conversations with casting directors. You never know who you met at a thing at a professional thing you've done at a free play reading you did for a friend. You never know. And right, no one's coming to knock on your door and say, hey, be in my TV show. Hey, come on your door. It doesn't work that way. So it's the same thing applies to actor. Well, that was a really big question that Cadam's asked you. And that's more of a development executive question. The other thing that strikes me is all parts of us are used for things, right? The fact that you had been a copy editor, a gig you didn't like, but you had developed these skills of how to frame things, how to talk about them. And you were able to pull that out. That also helped to help you. Right. The philosophy philosophy. And I mean, it even comes into play. Like, this is where I get in some times in trouble with casting. But that came to play. I was doing a pilot of CBS called St. Michael's Crossing. And it was, I don't know if you remember the time of third watch, it was about like, the paramedics, fire people and policemen, all the same error, same they came from the same things, all about their lives involved. I read the pilot and they're they're 16 series radios. And you and I know that for a network show, there's no way they're going to have 16 series but they didn't know what the cut would cut. And you also know from doing this a lot that for casting at that point when we begin a pilot, it doesn't matter because we have to look, start looking for all 16 because we don't know what they're cutting yet. Before every sort of pilot or project usually starts as a quote, what they call casting concept call. This is all the executive from CBS, from Warner Brothers, Paramount, it was a joint production of a whole bunch of people and we got the casting like, oh, we don't know what we're going to cut. The writer producer's name, the first name is Jorge, very nice guy too. He's like, glad I don't know yet. I'm trying to figure it out and I express the concern that for casting. We have to start. So then I just go, well, listen, you got those two characters over there. They're like the same person, make them one character. Take that one and I started, I started cutting. Like I said, I'm a casting concept call. And I'm casting a couple of calls. Jorge goes, huh, that could really work. All right, you know what, can we postpone this for like a day and then he made all the cuts that I did. And I'm like, where's my development money? I developed this pilot. Yeah. For people that don't know once the casting director has been hired to cast the pilot, there's usually a call where it's the casting director, any executives that work on the project from the studio or network or streaming service when gets on a call. And you discuss, who's the series regular and what types you're going for? I draw the same page going forward. Exactly. When I was overseeing casting, we used to also ask just that the showrunner and the casting director would bring a prototype so they could say whatever. A Christian Stewart type, a Nisi Nash type, because from the executives that don't work in casting, sometimes it's easier for them to get their hooks in and then they can talk about like, okay, we see that or how are you thinking about that? How is this character going to develop? What does this type mean? And what do they bring to the role? So that's what a casting concept call is. A cast of concept call I've also had on episodics and I'm filmed too when I start just to make sure I've done a lot of those cast of concept calls are initiated by me in terms of for for features just because I think it's helpful. Absolutely. It's smart. And as a casting director, you don't want to be busting your hump, seeing and having actors tape and putting all of this energy out, then submit someone and the gatekeeper says, "Oh, this is what I was thinking at all." And you and I know too, the hardest roles of cast are the ones where they're not sure about what they want. Or have no idea what they want. Yes. Then it's when it's a blank canvas, it's actually a little bit harder because you and we're flying in the wind a little bit in terms of like, well, I'm not reminding you, tell us what you want. I'm here to tell a story. I'm here to help a director or produces tell a story. I can't get a sense of what they want to say. I would also venture to say, Mike, that those roles where they don't know what they want are usually not very well written roles either. Well, exactly. You're exactly exactly because they haven't put any time and clot into it. And then that's the worst when you're seeing actor after actor and no one's really quote, "making it work" because it doesn't work on the page. That's something we know in casting too. And I would see it on pilots. We'd be reading, reading, reading, and the role wasn't like being elevated. And it's because there's a problem in the writing. Problem in the writing. Yeah. If no one can make it work, it's because of what's on the page. Right. I mean, I did it. It's funny too. I did. A little bit of reverse was going along with that. I did a film called "Ladder Days" and the lead character's name was Davis. It was a Mormon teenage boy on his service for the two years here in Los Angeles. It's struggling with the sexuality. And they had to be good looking and whatnot. It was a really, really tough role. We read like 555 guys. I think it was a true number for that one role. Lots of wonderful, amazing actors. But there was one line that wasn't just wasn't quite right. And that one line kind of always brought the performances down. Like it jussered. And I remember I called them my writer directors who's in the top five of the mix. We've got three people on the top. Three people on the top. Look at that. It's fantastic. I said, you have to take that line out. No one's getting it. I don't know. It's I don't even know. I can't get a handle on it myself. And CJ was like, Nope. I love that line. I love it. I don't want to lose it. So now it's my job to find the actor that's going to make that line right. I mean, that's what I'm employed to do. And then number 556 is third audition ever. His first audition here in LA. Come in. And then he did the scene. And I went, Oh, that's how that line's supposed to be delivered. And I said, Don't move. You're getting this movie. Stay here. I'm calling my director. Come down. And we were two weeks away from shooting. And I called CJ. And I said, You have to come down right now. I found. And he says, I can't have in the middle of production meeting. And I said, Well, guess what? There's going to be no production without a lead actor. So you decide we move priorities. And he says, Okay, I'm coming. I'll come right now. And I said, this is the actor. Don't change a thing. And he read for C for CJ. I said, see, you have a seat outside. I like to see Jay goes, Yep, that's him. I'm tired. Years ago, I worked on a lot of big studio comedy films. And this is back when we were taping with the big VCR tapes and those big giant cameras, right? It was not accessible in the way it is now. And it was when the director was always in the room. And the first day or two, when we would bring in actors, but you could see that all they were doing was listening to the words they were rewriting. They weren't paying attention to the performances. That's something that casting directors pay attention to as well. So we need to clock like this person's fabulous. They're more enamored with their words right now so that we can read read read read read read address that person later and say take another look at this tape we are clocking so many different things in the process. I mean what everybody has to understand too is that the casting process is the first sort of start it's the start of the production really. So we are learning about the script about the characters as it happens. I mean sometimes I will learn and go wow and that's why you're everybody says oh it sounds very cliche. They really look are you really looking to see us to bring something bring ourselves to something. Yeah I can be informed about a character or you can show me a different light that I never saw that way. That's very interesting. No whether or not the director is going to prove that. And sometimes it's happened where you bring somebody in that's out of the box they go oh my god that really works. I love that. And sometimes they go what are you doing? Why are you bringing that person? You never know but it's a learning process and casting is the front lines of creating whatever you're doing. That's why I actually really like it is very exciting because we're the beginning of shaping whatever story we're telling. Yes shaping the story knowing the material and giving yourself enough time as an actor when you're auditioning to metabolize it and then to figure out what you're going to bring. Right what needs to be in the conventional terms to be said. because there's a side of all cast, if you're doing an episodic, if there's also a very familiar way to do a scene. And you want, there is conventional storytelling that I think is a blueprint. You know, you have to follow the blueprint. I always tell people the script and the story, that is your box, do whatever you want in that box. But if you go outside that box, people are going to go, oh, this isn't what I'm used to. I'm not going to watch this. - Ready for some questions? - Absolutely, let's do it. I'm an open book, everybody. - Okay, good. So Mike, I asked actors, just make it ask the casting director anything what would it be. The first question is, what makes you remember an actor? - That's always in the top five of questions that's, and my answer has always been, I don't know. For me, it's an intangible thing that I don't want to define. I always feel like if I define it, I'm not going to be able to get it back. It changes role to role, project to project, because I'm looking for different things. If I had to define an overall idea, what I respond to in actors, it's a passion for what they're doing. I love actors who love what they're doing. You and I know how many times we're met actors, and you can say, oh, they're going through the motions, they don't really love this. And that's a philosophy. And any job, any profession, that anybody's in. People are attracted to people who like what they do. They just do. So that makes an active more attracted to me. I think every, there's a spark with somebody that comes through and screen an intelligence, but why I like a specific actor, I don't even want to try to define that. I always hear the question back and people ask me, I go, what do you look for in a friend? Why are you attracted to your friends? - What are you responding to? - Yeah, it has an audience member when you watch a TV show, when you watch a movie, there will be actors that you can say, oh my god, I love that person. I love that face. - I love that. - I love what they did there. I love the way they said that. - Well, that happened. - I'm breaking down charisma. - I mean, I think I'm telling you the story, but I think it's very recurring. We, Elizabeth and I did a show where she was overseeing called Stitchers. And Stitchers used to have things place in a lab and I had a set of recurring mainly one line characters that appeared in a must every episode and they're lying in each episode. It was like, already over here, set, go. Like just random things about it. - Yes. - It's like to the lab. So I'm watching my Hunter, the David Fincher show on Netflix about Sierra Killers. And I enjoy that. I like, well, dark stuff. And there was an actor playing a Sierra killer. God, I forgot the name of the Sierra killer, but it's the lead guy, the big tall guy, who's in like six episodes. And I remember watching it go, God, this guy is so good. Like he's so good. And I don't like to, when I'm in the midst of watching a show, stop good, IMDB. 'Cause I like to be well, I like to be carried away by the show and I'll wait that for it. So I binge all 10 episodes and I said, I gotta find who this guy is. He's like fantastic. I look him up and I like, are you fucking kidding me? Sorry, nevermind. - No, you're good. - It was Cameron, Cameron Britton. Cameron, who was one of actors who just say, over here, ready over here. So, it's just, and he was, there's not many of you're golden below, but he's now he's off and a big thing in me. He's a go-to kind of character actor now. And I'll never forget too, he did, between seasons two and seasons three of stitches. There was a sort of delay a little bit. And in the between those seasons, he went off to do minehunter. And he came back for season three, didn't really tell anybody. And we had finished the season before it aired. So, sometimes I went down the stairs and lunch, I was like, well, I'm not a peep at him. And then I see it and I messaged him, and he's like, dude, he goes, yeah, I did it, but he tries. I said, you came back to stitches. And he goes, oh, he goes, guess what? I don't know how the show's gonna be received. And that's a great gig. I wake up, I don't even have to do anything. I mean, auditioning. And he said, I love that job. I think that job was great. And sometimes you guys, when you get jobs, think how sometimes I have really great there, especially a recurring job, when you don't have to do anything, you just get to be on set and learn. - You get money without even doing anything. Did they call him up? Like, hey, we need you to do a couple of days are you available? Yeah, okay, great, we'll book them. - I remember Mike on "Stitchers" when we tested for the role that Ritesh Rajan wound up getting. And that was a hard role to cast for some reason. I can't remember why. - Well, was it recast? - Yes. - It was a recast from the pilot. And I remember when Ritesh walked in, I was like, oh my God, I love this guy. - I remember the, but I read him by red on that morning. - Oh. - The stitches was a show that you guys had done a pilot and then you were revamping the whole thing. - It was a rewrite too. It was new characters. It was, yeah. - But we also remember, it was like between Thanksgiving and Christmas. So we only had like three weeks. It was like a normal pilot because you wanted to go into production like the beginning of the new year. - There had been a regime change, right? There was a new head of programming. They revamped it. So there was a short amount of time. - I was hired to do the show. But the first episode was being revamped. And they were starting production the end of after the new year. - Right. - And I met them like the week before Thanksgiving. And as everybody knows, as industry, that number one, that's a dead period. - Yeah. - People go way, blah, blah, blah, blah, who's not paying attention. And it was finding, I think it was three or four new series regulars. So it was a huge undertaking and we had this role. And I'll never forget, Ritesh. It was, it was quite a quote, the like the typical like computer geek guy, like somebody that they surround and whatnot. - He had one round of testing that role. And then another one, right? - And by the way, that's a really good example of, it wasn't really fleshed out on the page so well. - I don't know. No, there was one scene. We only had one scene. - Yep. - Another one scene. And then I remember reading Ritesh. And he's such a likable person. And he's got that sort of edge where he's kind of like you can play a computer nerd. And he's also kind of handsome. And has this sort of vibe to him. There's really, well, I met him really quickly. And it was a very quick process with him. I'm like, all right, dude, we're testing it's afternoon. And being there, but we got it. It was a great experience. And he's a lovely human being. And everybody that along was just, - He is. And he's doing fabulous work now. He's on Russian doll. And I see him popping up all the time. - It's very good actor. - He's like, very good actor. - He's a very good actor. Yeah. - And also a great dancer. If you ever had a party with that guy. - Yeah, really? - Yeah. - He's a fabulous dancer. He's super fun to dance with. Okay, here's another question for you Mike. What distinguishes a good audition from a great audition? - Oh. Well, I think that's changed from auditions that were in the room to additions via self-tape. Because now everything is self-tape. So I'll address additions via self-tape. - Yes, let's talk about now. We're in the self-tape world now. - Right. All actors, if you're listening to this, please be aware that with self-tapes, we as cast members get to see more people. So the number of actors that come in the self-tapes are more than if you would see an actor in a room. So for me, what establishes a difference between a good and a great audition is that something, they do something extra that's a little bit outside the box. It's a little bit, it comes off and you go, oh, I remember that. Sometimes it's a flash of a physical thing, like a swath of wardrobe that sort of just stands out that I can visually latch onto that connects me to that. It can be the slate, sometimes where they show personality. And for me, I can really spot when an actor does intensive character development. I can spot it. And that makes an actor stand out for me. And just a case of point, in getting back to the wardrobe thing, don't ever, if you're going on a self-tape for an audition, don't underestimate the power of wardrobe. Because what that does for me is I look at it and I get keyed in and I go, oh, they get this character. I could tell by what they're wearing. They put the extra thought in to say, what would this character wear? How would they do it? And I would say just to be specific to, it's not about costuming. If it's a doctor, don't put on a doctor outfit, but it's the difference between a raggedy t-shirt or a button-down shirt. Thanks. Like how the fit is going to inform your physicality. But please don't go in costumes and please don't hear this. It's like just so crazy scar for some nonsense so they'll remember you. Right, right, right, sorry, yeah, that can get confused like that. And I don't mean that. It's just what it does. It shows an actor who's put a lot of thought into what they're presenting. And-- Making specific choices. Specific choices. About the character. Your choices on self-tape start with encompasses everything. It's your lighting, to your background. So you're framing. So if I get a sit or stand, you'll sometimes will get specific instructions regarding the self-tape. And that's all well and good. I personally don't understand that. I like-- because it informs me how this actor is and how workable there's and how much thought they actually put into what they're doing. And that to me really is the difference between a good addition and a great addition is character development. And because that to me shows also a level of passion, a level of intelligence that sort of comes through and makes, oh, I want them to be part of this team putting this film together. And the ones that have not made specific choices. Those are the ones that blend together for you. Yep. Yep. Yep. Interesting. You can make a choice to 110% behind it. All right, Mike. So initial call versus a callback. This question makes me a little crazy. But I think we can break it down in our answer. To me, the way the question is asked shows not understanding what the process is. But anyway, initial call versus callback changes you like to see. Keep this. same thing that got you the call back or try for fresh takes that are a little deeper. Well, I think you and I know the answer that. Yeah, go. If you get a call back and you don't get any notes from the cast and everybody else, don't change a thing. You've got a call back for a reason. This was a thorn in my side sometimes. When I was doing a lot of episodic and I would usually have my pre-read sessions in the morning, because I was in time when I was still doing pre-reads, I wanted to do the pre-reads. And then I would go to producers in the afternoon, specifically when I was doing call case. And I would just say, Hey, I read an afternoon the morning. If I wanted to bring them back, I'd put them into the afternoon session. They'd call back. And I would say, don't change a thing. And inevitably, there's always people you come back and you go, What are they doing? They, they, Oh, I went to a coach in between. I just, as I, what are you doing? And I'm very specific about my notes. I have notes for an actor like, OK, that was great. Drop the accent or don't go too heavy in terms of the emotion. Pull it back. I'm very specific about my notes. If I give it, but if I don't give a note, I don't want to see a change. Now with self tapes, I work super hard to have as very limited callbacks as possible. I'm most, I would say 93% of all the roles of cast of a self tapes have been off of the first tape. I so much can go wrong with a call back on a tape. So I always encourage my producers and directors to trust their instincts. If there's something about this actor you liked, and you really, really like off the first tape, you're going to get that much different from that. You as an actor will get specific adjustments or instructions. Listen, wear a flannel shirt instead or pull your hair back or don't change a thing, right? The thing about that question that also makes me nervous is when they say, try for a fresh takes that are a little deeper. You should be deeper the very first one. Yes. I was just for comedy. There was like a henchman. It was a silly comedy. It was a henchman, but he was in almost every scene with the leaves. So by the day of like all different takes, all different shape sizes, qualities of a henchman, but there weren't that many lines. And I remember some guy came in and with his five lines for henchman, he was auditioning for the park. Yeah. Yeah. Shakespeare in the park. And so that's what it makes me feel when it's like a little bit deeper. No, no, who you are in the story. I know the heart of the heart of the heart of the cast of my entire career when I was the associate at LA Law. I was in charge of finding the people who said, has a jury risk of verdict. We have you on or we find the defendant. It's not guilty or guilty. Oh my God. I was like, dude, just have to say quite frankly, it's really about your look at this point, but everybody wanted to make a meal of it. Okay, here we go. Okay. I'm hearing of more people going the extra mile with self tape production. IE shooting car scenes in their cars. Is this necessary? Go for it. Absolutely not. Stop thinking that's what just do get a very nice clean professional setup and wherever you are. Go to Amazon. Very easy. You just get the blue background or different couple backgrounds. Where we want them to pop a nice lighting kit. They're not that expensive. Put it up and that's all you need. The more you do it, although I will say when we were doing stitches, I requested a tape per go and tape for this role. She loved the Dallas, but her husband at the time was the DP on Dallas. And she sent in a self tape. I never forget it was like it was in this warehouse and she didn't think and she's walking. And like it was a walk and talk and it was and it was and it actually was really good. It was a good and felt like it was shot for the show. Yes. And I remember called a raging. I was like, I love this tape. She's like, right. I said, not so much for Brent. I mean, I love for Brenda, but I love like I want to send it to everybody saying, hire this guy to DP and that's big. Like it was so bad. It was like, what a fool, but it was, but it did take away from what she was doing because I was like looking at the tracking shot. I was looking at the background. A self tape should just be all about you. There was a trend for a while too. Like people were shooting self tapes like in front of bookcases. You just prevent them again. And and I kept saying to myself, kind of book cases. Yeah, bookcases. I kind of, I got a lot of self tapes of other bookcases and I was just like, why are you reading that book? It's awful. I think if you are spending time doing business, you're paying more attention to doing business and it's taking away from your performance. If you're giving me an audition, I know you can sit in a car. Right. Right. Exactly. I'm, yeah, you're right. It's like wearing a costume. Like, oh, I'm playing a doctor. Something coming to lab code or doctor's code. I don't need a lab code to tell me that you can play a doctor. And as you highlighted before, character choices is what we're looking at. Right. I've got all types of weird self tapes. The funniest one was I actually had a lady. I am not kidding. When she started the performance after the slate, she turned off the light. It was like a night. So was, but she turned off the light. I'm like, I can't see you. Like it was it was a specific character because from the slate to when she started the tape, there was no cutting. So she's like, hi, my name is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she took the beat and then she started to see the other light went off. And she could do the scene. I'm like, overcomplicating what it is. I've had people I've seen their parents arguing in the background. I feel bad. There's all these auditions. I always feel like auditioning in the self type processes. I guess it's almost like therapy. Like I don't, for sure. I don't need to see someone else's like therapy session in a sense. Yes. Yes. I don't think it's fair to the actor. It's not. You're there. You're there auditioning showing what you would do and then. And I don't think you're in a vulnerable most, most of the additions are sure you're in a vulnerable state. So you're feeling something they may not want the world to see. Yes. I agree. What else? All right. Let's see. Oh, is there anything about your job and process you think actors aren't aware of and should know about? Yeah. That's a good question. I'm an open book in terms of stuff like this. I pretty much make everybody wear everything. Yes. Yes. I think those things would be what we shared. You have to audition for jobs just like the actors. We want you to kick ass and do well because if you are the role, that makes our job easier. It makes us look good. And yeah, and like we have insecurities. I go like through just like actors. Every time I finish a job, I'm like, I'm never going to work. Like I'm just like, like it's the same thing. You just go through the same thing. So we have those insecurities. We don't hold the keys to the kingdom. We all did. We all work together to hold the kingdom. Personally, I think it truly is a collaborative effort. I mean, it really is. And actors auditioning are part of that collaboration. I think that's important to know that don't walk into a session. I put yourself on tape wanting to please the cast director saying, oh my god, they hold the keys to my future. I don't hold the keys to your future. I provide an opportunity to move you forward in your chosen profession or your dream profession. That I can do. That's why I always hate to why I discovered that more. I found that you didn't you didn't find them underneath the rock. You didn't find the actor. You saw something an actor you sparked to it and you gave them an opportunity. And the time you were working on happened to be the first one they booked. Right. It just happened to be and it's because of you and the actor they rose to fame. They did it themselves. They took advantage of an opportunity that I provided. I didn't create that talent. Yeah. Because you and I know right. So one of the questions I would love if you would talk about it was something to the tune of how much pull do you actually have? And it's different on every job. It depends on what the casting director's relationship is with the director. Is with the producer is with the network. It's different on every single job. It really, really is. I've been doing this in a while. So I've gone through these sort of transformation. But when I first started the approval process in terms of what you had to get approval, especially the episodic change. From when I started to do it to and and it was funny because I'm one of your shows when I had to realize, oh, I can't just hire whoever I want. Or whatever you want. So when we started taping things for episodic is when it changed because then other people were like, oh, I get to have an opinion too. Yeah. Exactly. I did a TV show called Cold Case. The thrust of that show was the casting and the music. And for anybody doesn't know, I had to find two actors to play the same character at different ages. So I also had a look thing and it was very casting forward. Every episode was a new crime that hadn't been solved. So they flashed back to this crime to place 1969 or place 1987 or wherever it was. And so the spread of years determined what age actors and what they looked up. So when I started season four, I found that the approval process on that was extremely easy because one of brothers in CBS and Jerry Breckheimer's office were just like, you know what? It's already too difficult. We don't want to muddy the world. And they're very cool about it. I hired an accountant one day. It's like 2,945 actors. I hired over the course of four years on the show, which is a lot. Yes. I've only had two actors spit back at me, both from the studio. And one was, one was because he was suing Warner Brothers and I'm lost. And I've never forget the cast right there was coverance at the time. I sent him just for it. And they used to give like courtesy pervals. They just want to see who we're hiring to be there. And he called me back and said, "Hey, how do you even get on the lot?" I'm like, and I'm saying, "Why?" He said, "Because the guard's like, we can't let the guard's." Because he's so, you know, he's so in Warner Brothers. And I was like, "I have to call up the guard gate." I have no idea. I was like, "I guess we can't use it now." And the other one was, I think now an ex-port-star named Ginger Lynn Allen, who was fantastic. She's a fantastic actress. She was really good, but unfortunately, at that point, she was, even though she said she wasn't, she was still doing adult entertainment. And so Warner Brothers didn't want to touch that with anything. And this was what 15 years ago, when that would have been a bigger deal, right? So the only two actors that were kicked back to you on that show were because of things that had nothing to do with their performance. So then when I got out, and I started doing other projects really for other, I was another project for the networks and whatnot, and I was like, "I bristles a lot of times when somebody says, "We don't like that actor. "We don't think he's right." I'm like, "What?" I didn't quite understand it because I've never had to do that before. So now there's an approval process that affects how much leverage you have. I think cast directors have a little bit more pull in feature films. I remember the last half a season, or even full season of "Rodswell," Jason. Jason Cainham is just, he didn't love casting because he just was very shy. And he was just like, "You like him?" And he was like, "I'm sorry, it's higher than fine." I was like, "I'm usually towards the end of a show, "as the show goes on longer." Cast members have a little more say in who gets hired. - And when people are kicked back, it can be for any number of reasons. You highlighted it can be because they're in something legal with the studio. - Right, right, right. - It can be because they don't like the performance. It can be because they just hired them on something else that is airing the next day. It can be because they want a different type. - Have this before too, and then it shows that we've worked on creatively and then the development process, your development executives and the show runners decide that we want a different direction of the character because it's not playing right, even script wise or whatnot. They make the decision when you send them all the actors and you're like, "Oh, none of these people are right anymore." - There are so many different reasons why if it's kicked back, it's rare, but when it's kicked back, why it happens, and it is nine times that it's and not personal to the actor at all. - And a lot of times I have savage relations with the directors and they take my word for a lot more weight than people. I don't have a work with the first time and it's a collaborative effort and I have told directors, like, "Oh, just hire them." And they're like, "Okay." And I was like, "Another director is like, "No, I remember behind a hire Lucy Lewin." And in any movie, I had to like, I had to go to our house and just beg her to hire her. And she went up, not hiring her. Then Lucy Lew blew up literally like three months after that. Like, and she, like, to this day, she'll send me again, no, whenever she sees Lucy Lewin in the trades, but she goes, "I was so wrong. "I was so wrong. "That's also a great P.O. for actors as well "when you get close to something "and it feels heartbreaking if you're not approved. "If you got the goods, you're gonna work." - Yeah, and we just have an conversation with that actress. I should have gone when she was pin like three or four times and they think it took a pin, she was so frustrated and I was like, "Alright, don't worry about it." And when I was doing call case, we brought in Bellamy Young who played Scandal. - Yes, yeah, yeah. - But we brought Bellamy in 15 times. And I'm friendly with Bellamy and I kept saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." And she's like, "Not all apologize. "I have an opportunity to act. "That's why I'm an actress." And they loved her. That's why you get, she get coming back. - My back in, yep. - Yep. - And we finally found one for her that was really right. And she was great. I think that's a great way to look at it. I mean, guess what? You weren't pins three years ago. You weren't pins so much. You've moved up. There's a progression in your career. That's the progression. - So much of it is about trying to keep your mind right and straight around at a girlfriend years ago who now is doing very, very well. But she tested in two months for six different pilots and didn't book any of them. And I remember coming to the office 'cause I was across the street from where she had just auditioned and she was like, "I'm gonna give this up." I'm like, "You should be doing the exact opposite." You just tested for six things in two months. Keep going. You're doing something right. The right thing will hit. And of course it did and has a beautiful career. Keeping your mind straight and being reminded why you do it, it's hard work. But I feel like that's 60% of this might. - I agree completely. I think maybe more in a way. And piggybacking off of the last question is the one thing that actors don't know about my job I want to know is sometimes how hard we fight for actors. But there are plenty of times when it's right, we'll fight. - Absolutely. I remember us testing on a show or one of the female leads. She was fabulous, but she came in and she, I guess she just choked. The audition was not there in the test. But I had a really strong feeling this was our gal. So we worked with her. We changed her cost doing. We got her to a place. And she came in and she nailed it. And that was it. That's an example of when we can fight and it works. Sometimes it does in. If we've seen it and some actors just have bad days. We get in rooms. I'm sure you said it before, Michael, where you bring someone in and you're like this person's getting the role and they just have a bad day and they leave the room. And you turn to the people and say, they can do this. I know what they can do it. Let me bring them back. - Yeah, yeah. I have it all the time. I think I told you this story before. I know that Rosemary Duet. Rosemary, that man. Rosemary. I was doing a pilot for CBS called The Interlovers with the Dan Boone, PC, Lisa Kudrow, where exactly the producer. It was a big ensemble. It was a one-roll, Ganon's hard. We couldn't fight her. So back, back of the day. A lot of actors would fly in from the East Coast for pilot season and stay out in California. And so she had done like, Danny, the deep blue sea off Broadway or something. And she comes in and I read her on a Saturday 'cause of going to pilot season. You working weekends as well. And I was like, oh my God, she's so good. She's so good. So I brought her back for producers on the Monday. And I said, she is so good. She's never going to get it. She's not the CBS girl at that time. And Les Munez was the head of the network. So not the kind of actress that he would, he usually responded to. But I said, but she's so good. I have to bring her back. I can't make that decision. She's just too good enough. And then I said, but I hate her, I hate her sweater. I hate it. I hate it. I can't do it. But I didn't say anything. So she comes back for producers on the Monday. She reads, my producer, oh my God, she's great. She's so good, but she's never going to get it. And now we're going into network on Wednesday. But let's start a test deal and bring it to studio tomorrow. But they're like, tell it address differently. We don't like what she's wearing. I'm like, I know, I hate that sweater, right? You guys, that's so good. So bring her back to studio on Tuesday. Maria Crenna was the head of parents. We were very nice, very nice lady. And so she reads her, she's like, oh my God, I love her. Oh my God, I love her. And she says, less is never going to go for that. That's so not going to happen. And we're like, okay, she goes, but what she's got on, we got to have her change again. So like, it's her second note to change that. It's her second outfit, right? And so then we're going back to CBS. She changed to something different, which is a little more appropriate for the character. I'll never forget. She said, damn, damn, he goes in the room. He runs back and goes, less isn't here. It's Nina. Less isn't here. It's Nina. I think we have a shot of Rose Murray. And she does her thing in the network testing. You know how those go? There's always very, right? I don't know. Well, I don't think it was late in the day. It was like, it was a whole thing. It was late in the pilot season. She turns to everybody like, you know, how the actors leave the room. And then she leaves the room. And I never forget Nina terms to everybody goes, oh my god, she's a revelation. And I'm like, oh, god, I'm dead. Less was there. He would not have improved her. And so funny how little things like that really affect careers. Yeah, all of you saw how wonderful she was. And she's a beautiful, fantastic actress. Saw how wonderful she was. And even though you were worried, it wasn't going to be the quality that that place normally went for still gave her the shot. And the things aligned and she got the gig. And then the funny thing after that, then we were doing all the recurring characters afterwards and the actress Becky Newton. We wanted to hire her and the girl that the actress had whoever was had to be on a plane. Like, it was one of those like, quick things. It was the last role that the cast had. And so C.B. S. I got the list of people we're bringing in. And Lucy Cavallo was head of a drama. And she was a huge fan of Lucy. And I love Lucy. And C.B. S. was particularly concerned about it is actors looking alike on pilots especially because what would happen was less would sit there and watch you know, the pilots come through. And he hardly distinguish between actors, especially when he came to to actresses. So they are very conscious about people looking different to whatever cast. And I remember Lucy saying, but Becky Newton looks like Rose Murray. She looks nothing like her. Like nothing like her. Two eyes and nose and a mouth. Right. Exactly. Like, so she comes in and they want to book her. She's good. She's getting perfect for the role and the ball. And couples who we want to hire, but she can't. She looks like Lucy. They look nothing like it. This is days before like a cell phone picture or blah, blah, blah, blah. So I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna improve it to you, okay? She just looks like, like, so, I knew Rosemary was staying in a hotel with Hollywood. We were casting all the way like in the deep east Hollywood, like Las Vegas somewhere in Rome. And so I take Becky as a cometh me, I take her in my car and I zoom across with Hollywood. And I call up Rosemary from at the hotels that you have to do me favor. Well, I'm gonna be outside when I say, come, I say, you have to come down. She didn't really know exactly what it was yet. So then I zoom over there, I, I, it's a Chamberlain, that's where she was staying. And I call Rosemary and say, come down. And so then I took a video camera have with me. And I said to Rosemary, they're concerned you guys look alike. And remember Rosemary looked at her and she was like, "We look like we're nothing alike." (laughing) Probably the size of them. So I took a video camera, videotape at the time of them together way, and like, hi, hi, I'm just a sauce. And I just see it. And I take it and I went into the business section of the hotel and I got a plug in the computer and I had it before. I mean, I don't know. And you know me, I'm so computer stupid. Like I have no idea. I'm calling up the guy, the front desk. Can you help me? I need to get this like lay it down and just stream it down. I need to get it over there. Please, please, please. Like people working out and I finally do it. And it's like an hour before she's getting a plane. And I say, I call those guys. I'm sending right now. I said, I don't even want to get off the phone with you. Watch it. So she watches it. She goes, oh, they look nothing alike. I'm like, yeah, see? But the extra mile. She goes, okay, she's approved. I'm like, ah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. This sort of flows into the last question. Thank you so much for your time, Mike. Does the number of followers-- I can talk about myself all day long. (laughing) Does the number of followers an actor has impact odds of getting a job, vomit face emoji? And I actually should add like five more of them. Yes, yes, you're great. No, I don't-- I want to see the study. No one has ever proven to me that the number of followers has any impact on ratings, on box office. It doesn't-- I think the one thing it does matter in, I will say, is as a producer, it's likelihood. It's not a guarantee, but as a likelihood, the more people will be aware of a project. In other words, if somebody tweets out or somebody Instagrams posts, and they have 1.5 million followers as opposed to somebody who's got 20,000, more people are going to see it. It's just so the awareness may be a bigger factor. But I mean, specifically, because when we did "Sitters," we hired two at that time of the biggest social media influencers of the time. And it was hired and we could jump. And it did move the rating needles one point at all. And also two, a lot of people don't understand is a lot of us people have their successful influencers. They're not going to tweet out about it. That's what they get paid for. Yes. Yep. That's exactly right. They're not going to be like, oh my god, let me send it to the moon. They're just like, no, you have to pay me for that. I think it's like 20,000 dollars of tweet. Yes. Yep. I cannot point to one social media star, can you mic, that is made in effective transition to being an actor. No. I mean, I agree. I really can't name anybody now. I think it's still kind of early in the stage to see the-- I mean, it's like reality TV stars. There used to be a big background in where people with a reality TV stars. And I never really had that. Because I get it with a lot of them. But there's a lot of actors who started in reality TV who are now sort of like David J. and Tully just into barrett's, even Nini Leaks, that's nice scripted stuff. All that stuff has all worked out. And I think it's slightly too early to see the social influencers build in that direction. The good actors will weed out. But I got to be honest, most of them can act. Well, you're talking about someone just into barrett. Or by the way, Jamie Chung, right? Like school, real world people. But these are people that went to acting classes. Yeah, as a guy. I worked on the craft. Who's that in this way? Contributions that I don't care. Who's that actress that's signed the Netflix deal? The Addison Ray? I don't care. If people are listening right now, I apologize. I don't get it. I dinner with the producer last week. And we were talking about people are trying to see what translates. There's so much out there now. And to me, it always comes back to the story, the material, the storytelling, the actors that are telling, the story, that's what's important. How I have used social media before is to help get an actor a job, right? So someone came in for something and an executive would say, bad example. I don't see them as being sexy enough. Or I don't believe that they can rough it up enough. Whatever it is in the look, I would go online then. And look, if I could find material that would help get the actor the job, I would utilize it. - Utilize it. - Right, and there's exactly right. I do think social media is important and for a variety of reasons, actors. It's a tool now in terms of, to me it's like the old postcards from usual people used to mail up postcards. It's a reminder that someone's out there. I never ever, ever get a role. I need to cast and go look on social media for that actor. No, but the double edged sort of social media, everybody, is that number one in this business perception is reality. So whatever you put on social media becomes our reality of that person. We don't know anything else. And so you have to be very careful about that. And I always believe fear and actor, but I am all four of people's different political views. That's great. I love it. However, you can't blame people who then think that's the only thing that you are. So if you on political posts all the time, I'm gonna say myself, well, that's a very political person. If you put on everyday posts where you were in a pink shirt, I'm gonna think, oh, that person only owned a pink shirt. I mean, 'cause that's what I'm seeing. - And we are living in a world right now where there are not nuanced conversations around any of this. - And I get that raised nuance. However, you have to understand that you don't audition in a vacuum, if you say something or post a picture that some people may not like. And that's the right not to like it. Use it, say what you say, but make sure it's not negative. Like to me, the bar for me is negativity. And listen, I'll be completely honest. There's a couple of actors that I've said some very precious things on social media that I've seen that I wouldn't even bother putting on anymore 'cause they were so bad. I don't wanna put that kind of energy in whatever what I'm doing. It's just, it was awful. I can't believe some of you actually said that. - But it also could be a very good tool. I mean, in terms of what you said, it helps you find that it's shown on the side of somebody. Reminder that, oh, that person's here. So I say, go full force with social media, but use it very wisely. - And if your public realize that that's what it is, like the conversations that you have in your living room at nine o'clock at night with your friends is not necessarily everything that you're going to be broadcasting out to the world. It's all discernment. It's discernment. - I've actually turned down jobs where the producers want to, I mean, but I'd say we want people with like a star meter over 5,000 in this movie. I'm like passing, thanks, bye. And I just recently, I did a movie and it was French investors and they're very kind of conscious and no idea. And the executive producer had no idea. When I sent them a list of actors, they sent back notes saying, oh, we really like this person, but their star meter is only a Bible boss. We can't hire like what? And I sent them my executive producer. This is going to be a thing, fire me now. - And this is like French bankers that we're looking on the computer. - Right, right, and I said to them, I could be driving them straight and all of a sudden my car hits Lindsay Lohan. All of a sudden my name's in the paper, guess what, my star meter goes way up. I said it means nothing in terms of everything. - And then also by the way, you don't need a casting director. Just do a search for star meter and just make a move. - Make a move, make a move. - Yeah, yeah. Hey, Mike, what's the best thing that happened to you this past week? - Oh God, that's a good question. Let me see. The best thing that's happened to me was, I'm also a writer and my process is, I can mull about a story but I don't have a creative, and if I'm higher right something, then I could do it. But the stuff that I really, really love, I wanna do, I kinda let it sit and ruminate. And if I have a germ of an idea, if I have an idea of a whole movie in my head, I kinda have to wait to sort of, I get this kinetic energy in me before I actually start writing it. And it's for me that tells me that the story is viable and can move forward. And it happens to me very distinctively. And so it was Thursday, I got this creative spark with the story that I've been working on. And I love that because it's energy. It feels like I'm alive in a sense. It should be like, oh. - I love that. So it's like a body-knowing body. - Body of mind, everything's been lined and going, okay, this is worth writing to me. - It clicks somehow. - It clicks, it clicks somehow. And I can mull the story for years in my head before it goes or sometimes I have one that came really, really quickly. But this one, this has been ruminating for about a year now. And to me sometimes it's like, I'll listen to a song and I'm like, and I'm like, oh, that sort of energize me, pushes it to all come together somehow. I know I'm weird that way, but it just kind of happened. I thought that was really, really kind of neat. And then I walked my dog. I love that. - Luigi, you're a little proud. - Luigi, not bad. So it was a good week in terms of that's the best thing. - I mean, I love just hanging out with my friends. I think that's probably the most important thing in life. - Relationships. - It's bad relationships and formed a new one that I really like this week and re-firm some old ones as well. So that's me the most important thing. I think that comes through. So that's why I tell that just because it's a remind everybody, this business is important, it's great, but it's not the only thing that's important. I know you may be stressed about your acting career and I've gone in three times, depending on how happening. So I get this whole thing. But you know, you're a working actor. You've got that down. Relax. just let it all kind of happen. - We talk a lot about the importance of having a full life. What else lights you up? What else makes you happy? And what your relationships are in and outside of the business? - For the most part, if you're an interesting person, you'll be an interesting actor. And all the other stuff that'll come through it. I mean, where do you meet all those actors and some of them are friends? (laughs) That's all I think about. It's acting and then it's done. You're just like, after a while, you're like, and just cast directors like that too. There's a lot of cast directors whose identity is caught up in what they cast. - I would say the actors that it's all they think about, they're actually not thinking about building a character in the work. - Right, right. - They're thinking about all the other bullshit that we can't control when you're putting the lion share of your energy on that and not actually the work. Those are the people that are-- - And that's your motivating force. Who cares? I don't really care about your dressing. - And that is not a fun head to live inside. And that's not a fun head to live in. And it's the same thing when I started writing to him. I was like, no, give this shit about what I might take on something and take the ego out of it because it just makes for an interesting, much more interesting story. - I-- - Very tellers. Whenever that scenario rises up, you know better than anybody. To me, that's the worst part of cast. - Yeah. - And sometimes I just check out. I'm just like fun than the past and move on. I mean, I had-- I just don't-- So on top of my right, there's another thing. It was unrotful. There was an act where she was-- She has a reputation for your payment. She was very bad paying that. And I couldn't hear the stories anymore. I called up her agent. I said, guess what? It's a show about fucking aliens. Guess what? Oh, her character goes over a cliff in a car. And the aliens come down to her and see her. And she's half dead. And they go like this. Wave their hands in front of her face and her face changes. And obviously, we have a new actress. We can do that because they're aliens. They can do that. She's replaceable. I don't mean to be so called about it. But when it comes down to a point where you're making life miserable for some people, we've got-- it may get a point where people say life's too short. Gotta go, but by-- And they may shut down the whole production, or they may recast or whatever. It doesn't cost you anything to be nice. And it goes for us, too, cast and characters. Because they don't listen. You and I now, there's a lot of horror stories by cast and characters. There's a lot of cast characters who are not particularly nice. And I'm just-- and wanted with this quick story about being nice, I guess, maybe it's a good way to say it. I was working. And all of a sudden, I got a call from Paramounts out of the blue saying they want to hire us to do or palette, palette to come. That wasn't known at that point for lots of half-hour sitcoms. That was more of a hour procedural person. And I'm like, wait, me? Me? And they're like, yeah, I was the executive producer. They mentioned the guy's name. And I'm like, he really, really likes you. And I was like, I can't be honest. I'm no idea who that is. Well, he sure knows who you are. He went to hire him. So I was like, OK, so let me close the deal first. And so I close the deal. And I called this person. And I didn't let him know that it was. But it says me for coffee. And thank you. And that it says me for coffee. And talk about the project. And you know what I'm saying? So I go meet this coffee. And I'm walking over to his there first. And I'm like, I'm so happy. I still have no idea who this person is at all. And so we started talking a little bit. And I said, oh, wait, we know before we enter further. I have to be honest. I have to be honest. I don't know who you are. And he goes, you don't? I'm like, no, he says, he has to think about it. I'm like, he says, Ron Turner. I'm like, oh, he was the assistant to one of the executive producers on Roswell. And when we go to the producer sessions, we ever go to executive producer's office on TV show. So I was like, I think he's so very quiet. And nobody really talks. And you know me, I come and like, yeah, I know. I'm like, yeah, my whole thing. I'm like, of course, the nation's like, kind of way. So I would come in and like, hey, man, how you doing? What's your day? What's going on? What do you work? I just talk and wait for everybody to get out of their meetings or whatever to come to casting. And he goes, you're always so, you're always very nice. You actually took an intro. So what I was doing, and I always said to myself, a viber guy I think I was a hire, he was a cast director. And he did. And you never know. You never know. Things are going to come from. And it's especially important for actors you never know. Sometimes we're in gig calls, you have to, you, you were going to show the director who you didn't maybe didn't pay and tend to do it, but you were nice. He's like, you didn't know. So he called you up. You didn't know that he was doing another episodic. He wants to hire you for a similar one. And that happens all the time. And this business is built a lot on relationships. But you have to be nice and ready in those relationships to go if you ever call the public. That's not, it's not a bad thing. It's a great thing. Yeah. Years ago when I first moved here, I was an associate for Roger Miesendin who did a lot of Adam Sandler movies. Now Adam could have anyone he wanted in his movies. And he's also top 10 list Adam belongs on there. Top 10 list and nicest people. I agree. I don't. I don't agree. He's a decent, great, wonderful guy. And all the wonderful things about him. But he was like, are they a good person? I guess I don't set with this person for three months. This is a family. These I work with my friends. I continue to employ people that work hard. This is their livelihood. And I want my time to be pleasant. As well as you should. And then true words never spoken, especially on episodic everybody or film is you are on set. And the last thing people want to do is hire people who they want to want to be in settlement. Yeah. You're there. Yes. I've always got good and bad qualities. But the negative stuff gets out quicker and faster. And then people get a reputation. And I mean, this is my, sometimes somebody mentioned an actor and then he's like, oh, it's too short. Left too short. There's the nicest people in Hollywood list. And then the last two short lessons. I know a couple of you will need to be on that life to share with us. Thank you so, so much for giving so much of your time. Oh, this is great. Mike, how do you feel about actors getting in touch with you? What is your philosophy? I don't mind at all. I actually think that it's your job nowadays, because you're not going into a room. So I think it's very important for you to get in touch with me. I have an Instagram. I mainly focus on Instagram on Michael Testochasting. Instagram to just hit me up with the DM there. And that's fine. And I also do a little plug. Since the lockdown started doing online, one-on-one actor exercises that I find very creatively satisfying, not only for me, but apparently for some of the actors who take them. So if you ever want to interested in that, they're very cheap. They're very reasonable. They're a lot of fun. They're very challenging. I don't fuck around when it comes to that. So hit me up with that too, if you want. But hit me up on Michael Testoch. My Instagram account, in DM me, and feel free to do that. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. You're the greatest. You're the greatest. You're the greatest. You better call Paladito back. I know. He's probably saying, why is that taking so long? I'll tell you later. By the way, the first things that come out of his mouth. What? Oh, I want to be on that. Tell us what's going to give you that. [LAUGHTER] I'm telling you, that's going to be the first person I'm on. Great. But we'll do one with him next. OK, great. OK, bye. Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING] Thank you to Mr. Michael Testoch for sharing his experience. I think we managed to keep it pretty professional. I hope you enjoyed the episode. I hope you have a delightful day today. And share the love. Tell someone that you appreciate them. Tell them you're glad they exist. Thanks for listening. Please share this podcast on your socials and with any artists you think would dig it. And send me your questions. I have many more casting folks coming in to share with you all. See you next time. [MUSIC PLAYING]