October Bonus Episode: The Kidnapping of Peggy McMath

this bonus episode of morbid is brought to you by netflix what would you do if somebody threatens everything you know including your loved ones and how would you know who to trust you're going to hear a lot more from us on this topic in this episode because it's a through line of netflix's new film animals a los angeles mayoral candidate played by ben affleck finds his son has been kidnapped he and his wife played by carrie washington are then pulled into a web of deception while trying to get their son back and they're forced into making choices that could absolutely tear their world apart as soon as i saw who was involved in this film and who was in this film i was sad we said let's go ben affleck our boston boy we gotta support he's such a talented actor he's a really talented writer and director yeah and he does all of that here he's amazing and also carrie washington come on i'll watch anything with carrie washington at the end of the day real and julianne anderson oh yes my girl scully if she's always going to be scully to me she's a chameleon though she can do no wrong in whatever she stars in i was here for it i was so excited the second i saw any kind of trailer for this i was like this looks like a nail by her so suspenseful it hooked me immediately it has everything that i look for in this kind of movie and we're actually going to be talking about a very similar kind of thing in today's episode yeah we sure are get ready for that it's gonna be relevant watch animals now playing only on netflix rated r hey weirdos i'm ash and i'm elena and this is a bonus episode it's a bonus we promised you true crime we did because this is our bonus episode that is like really fucking cool because netflix is sponsoring it yeah that was pretty sick have you guys seen the new film on netflix with ben affleck and carrie washington animals have you have you seen it i'm gonna wait for your answer okay go watch it yeah go watch it make sure you watch it and um yeah the crime is true in this episode the crime is true and um i picked this episode to do because i was like wow this relates back to the subject material of animals like so perfectly it's almost a it's like a parallel universe kind of vibe it's almost a true crime in and of itself how perfect it relates back listen to you girl all right so yeah today we're going to be talking about the kidnapping of peggy mcmath yeah this is going to stress me out this is going to stress you out ben affleck is a local boy and we love this is a local case hell yeah from a very long time ago though yeah so that it doesn't stress you out as much as much you know what doesn't stress me out as a quick little aside tell me all the pictures of ben affleck looking so stressed out while holding duncan donuts yes they are my favorite art form no and i will take no further questions as new england as new england people those hit us and in a good place they really like you can relate we've all been there yeah just ripping a just stressed out hold the duncan donut yeah it's the best i love it well here's something that won't make you feel good awesome what a way to start i mean this is not going to make you not feel good i hope this doesn't hit you in your in a good place in your soul yeah uh by the early 1930s kidnapping was like an increasingly terrifying reality yeah it was kind of like a thing it was this thing it was trending kidnapping was in fact trending if we had tiktok it would be trending no it absolutely would yeah obviously the country was in the grips of the great depression and with millions of people out of work the reason that kidnapping was trending was because of ransoms yeah so kidnappings were just all over the headlines it was just it was it was the new side hustle it essentially quite literally was in fact just one year before the kidnapping that we're going to talk about today baby charles lindbergh jr had been kidnapped from his own bedroom which yeah we talked about that makes me want to throw up throw up and his demander wanted 50 or his abductor i i was like demander yeah i've never heard her referred to his well i was gonna say his abductor demanded and then i just put those words together his abductor was demanding he sure was fifty thousand dollars for his safe return yeah that episode is crazy you should listen to it it's a wild episode it's so sad it is it's awful obviously because of how sad it is the case horrified the nation and made it very very clear that even the wealthiest most prominent honestly were probably like more yeah at target because of the money that they had of course which like hello ben affleck running for mayor hello ben affleck as mayor you know yeah putting yourself in the public eye you sure are kids are like hey give me that money now kidnapping obviously wasn't a new crime but it had become so prevalent in the headlines that the new york times was publishing a regular feature called recent kidnappings in america that's so fucked up that i can't even comprehend that not only that time magazine was reporting kidnappings alongside births deaths and weddings okay so you could really just take yourself on a journey with the paper just events i wonder what order they put those in i also wonder that would you go best to best to worst or worst to best worst to best you want to end on a good note i totally agree look at you it's like you organize books or something for some of the most deranged people the economic desperation of the depression made the prospect of a large ransom incredibly tempting yeah and in the spring of 1933 one of those deranged people was 28 year old kenneth buck from harwich massachusetts i'm oh do you know about this case no but i just said you know it's not great that he's from massachusetts yeah i told you it was local not great yeah also i'm i'm gonna punch him in the face as you should yeah retroactively absolutely well he was born in 1905 in harwich which is why you'll have to do that uh retroactively he was the son of c. captain joshua buck but when he was just 12 years old kenneth's father dropped dead unexpectedly from a heart attack oh no rip rip i know so i and i apologize if your dad's name is josh dad shouldn't be named josh oh he was joshua what do you feel about that still doesn't feel like a dad name yeah i don't know why when you said that i was like his name is josh i went to school with about 47 000 kids named josh yeah and i would presume that some of them are fathers today which is like oh this is just my dad josh like i don't know why that just doesn't hit for me yeah i don't it's never occurred to me before this moment it's like what it's like your dad being named zach yeah it also doesn't work yeah you're right sorry if that's your this is my dad zachary zachary is a little better see i don't know this is my dad's sack attack sack attack works this is my dad josh i don't know josh doesn't and there's many here's the thing if you're a josh or you have a josh or you know a josh like that's a great name yeah i don't know why it doesn't hit for me for a girl for a dad name i don't know but maybe i don't think i don't think elena necessarily sounds like a mom name either though it doesn't not you know but it's like one of those that you're like huh should your mom be named ashley i feel like ashley is a mom name you think so like a like a good mom wow thank you like hopefully when i'm a mom someday it'll be good her mom ashley she baked cookies see that just sounds like a teenager to me oh and we got oh that's a that's a good debbie debbie is a mom debbie is raising her hand in the corner yeah aiden aiden my dad aiden yeah the only reason i say yes is because sex in the city i was literally just gonna say that aiden was a dad and it made sense yeah aiden works for dads that's dads with morbid and moms yeah well anyways unfortunately his dad josh was dead so apparently it didn't work there ripper roney and as the soul burner for the family joshua buck's death uh really left the family in a rough situation with not a lot of options so as the oldest of the two boys in the family kenneth took it upon himself to become the the like sole provider for his mom and his four siblings oh shit but it turned out that outside of the fishing industry there weren't a lot of jobs available on cape cod for young boys with no work experience weird yeah it's crazy yeah so as a result he turned to petty petty craft to earn money he stole car parts usually and would sell them at like reduced prices which is kind of entrepreneurial shit i was kidding i'm like i'm not even mad at that yeah i mean especially like great depression era it's like you know okay yeah do what you need to do don't you can't steal people that's the don't steal people that's that's where you cross the line yeah don't steal in general like that's our best advice don't do that but but the scheme did work really good for a few years until kenneth was arrested at age 16. that'll happen and he was charged with being an accessory before the larceny larceny of an automobile tire so basically he was there when a tire was about to get stolen it's the stupidest charge i have ever heard in my life accessory before the larceny of a tire you were there before someone stole a tire someone stole a tire also how do you prove that not even a car - Attire. - Attire. - Yeah. - Like you happen to be around when someone thought about stealing a tire. Which would be tough to prove in court. Imagine going to jail. What are you in for? I was around when someone thought about stealing a tire. Did they steal it? Maybe. I was there before. That would be my follow-up question. And I'd be like, I don't know, I was there before. I don't know. Yeah. Well, the judge took pity because he was like, you know what, this is a pretty dumb charge. He's like, this is a stupid charge. And he was like, you know what, Kenneth, I'm going to let you off with a fine. But the good thing was that the arrest was enough to scare Kenneth straight for a little bit. A little bit. But in the years that followed his brush with the law, he did everything he could to make a living outside of a criminal life. He found work as a mechanics assistant, so he put his, you know, theft days to good use. Hell yeah. But when that fell through, he found a job as a mason's assistant, and that fell through. But finally, he landed a long-term position as a private chauffeur. Oh. Which I never really saw for him. Yeah, I didn't either. But I guess cars. There you go. He's sticking with cars. So with so many people traveling regularly between the country, he was able to find a job. And he was in New York at the time. He was earning decent money for someone his age. But it seemed that no matter what he did, he was never able to save much of what he took home each pay period. Among other things, his time behind the wheel had earned him a surprising number of traffic tickets that typically wiped out whatever was left after he paid his bills. According to one former client, he never allowed another car to pass him on the road. Damn. Which I relate to heavily. Damn. I used to get so many tickets when I was younger. When I worked on Newberry Street, I got like six tickets in one day once. That's a record. They were parking tickets. Yeah. I think that meter lady had it out for me. I would say so. Yeah. I paid them though. Well, while he managed to find a legal means of making a living, it didn't mean that his activities outside of work were necessarily legal. In the middle of prohibition, that didn't stop people like Kenneth or his brother Cyril from making and selling their own liquor. That's moonshine up in here. Yeah. Well, back then it was referred to sometimes as rum running. Oh, I love that. Rum runners. Which I'm obsessed with. Yeah. Their mother Bertha never really cared for the company that Kenneth kept, and she especially didn't like the, quote, parade of bootleggers who came and went outside their house at all hours of the night. This is so 1920s coded. I'm so obsessed with it. Little did the mom know, rum running was the least of Kenneth's bad habits though. According to a former neighbor, Kenneth was a window peeker. Oh, fuck Kenneth. Yeah. Kenneth. Yeah. I was out here being like, you know what? You got to do what you got to do during the Great Depression era. You didn't know everything about Kenneth. Coming up on the Great Depression. Fuck you, Kenneth. Fuck you. I also know now that you kidnap, so fuck you, Kenneth. He does a lot of bad things. Stupid Ken. One neighbor apparently caught him in the act, and one night fired a.45 out the window at him. Hell yeah. Yeah. Get the fuck out of my window. Yeah. They didn't hit him, but it was enough to scare him. Fuck Kenneth. Now, interestingly though, even after he was arrested on the very serious charge of and also everybody knew that he was a peeping Tom, the locals in Harwich had a hard time speaking or even thinking badly of Kenneth Buck. Huh. Yeah. It had that like small town working class vibe. Yeah. So the residents were protective of each other regardless of their flaws, I guess. I don't know if you can really like dumb down kidnapping to a flaw though. Yeah. You can't. I can't. No one can. Yeah, we shouldn't. We won't. That's horrific. Yeah, but back then they did. Damn. Harwich. And as far as the townspeople went, they were just like, eh, there's people worse than Kenneth Buck. I mean, yeah, you can say that in a lot of instances, but like, is that really the barometer we want to run with here? Not me. Yeah. Now, apparently, aside from his brief brush with the law as a teenager and, you know, his peeping on the neighbors, he was pretty well liked. Just a few years earlier, he actually ran for the newly established position of constable and almost won. I'm going to need everyone to get it together in this town right now. Which is another weird parallel to animals. Yeah. We just have like- Oh, yeah, it is. Elections. Yeah. That's wild. That's wild. Now, eventually, you know, in between peeping into windows and getting traffic tickets, he did eventually get married and have a son. Oh, great. So more than just the townspeople liked him, his wife and his son really liked him. Oh, good. People knew him as a pretty solid family man. Okay. He was very devoted to them. If you say so. That's what they say. One journalist wrote, Yeah. I mean, he cares about what's his, not anybody else's. It's wild, though, to have your own child and kidnap somebody else's. Yeah, because it's like, are you really, like, you really can't put yourself in that other parent's shoes? Yeah, that lacks so much empathy. Yeah. Now, it is almost impossible. It's almost impossible to overstate the effect that the Great Depression had in the U.S. Even people who never bothered to invest in the stock market and really didn't have a lot of money in the bank to begin with suffered some kind of fallout from the crisis. And for Kenneth Buck, that fallout came when he was laid off his job as a chauffeur for a family in Harwich and a family in New York, both needing to make cuts after the crash of the stock market. Now, never really having to, or never really being able to save much money to begin with, the loss of both driving jobs at the same time, was a major blow to Kenneth. Yeah. And at that point, he wasn't able to provide for his wife and son. Oh, shit. So with no income, he and his wife decided to move back in with Kenneth's mother. The move saved them some money, but obviously he still had bills to pay and a family to feed, which was getting harder and harder to do on whatever wages he could scrape together. So one afternoon, a few months after he'd been laid off, he heard that the McMath family had just fired the caretaker at their vacation home in Harwich, and he immediately went to the hospital. So he finally went to the home to apply for the position. Like many others around the country, Neil McMath had found himself needing to kind of reprioritize in the wake of the market crash. He was the son of famed civil engineer Francis McMath, and he had developed for himself a sterling reputation as an engineer and made a fortune in the Detroit steel industry right before the crash. Damn. So he still had some money, like some good money, but he needed to make changes and kind of tighten his belt if he wanted to survive everything. So they sold the family home in Detroit, and they moved him, his wife, and his daughter Peggy into the family vacation home in Harwich. Okay. Now that they were going to be living there full time, there was really no need for a live-in caretaker, so Neil let theirs go after 12 years of service. And that's what Kenneth Buck had heard about. So Kenneth Buck shows up at their door one day in the spring of 1933, and he's like, I would love to be your new caretaker. No, thank you, Kenneth. But Neil explained to the situation that, yeah, they let the previous caretaker go recently, but it was. We're not looking for another one. Well, and it was for lack of need. Like, it wasn't because he sucked or anything. So there was no job to be had. Yeah. So that interaction, however brief it was, and it seemed like it was pretty fucking brief, would prove far more significant than either would have ever imagined. Kenneth had penned his hopes on getting that job, and when it became clear that the position wasn't available, he lost what he saw as his last option. But then he got another idea. The little light bulb over his head. I bet this is a great one. It's a ding. And he later told the court, I just thought of it. I needed money. And it came to my mind that I could get it this way. Yeah. So he spent a few days thinking over his absolutely diabolical plan. He would kidnap 10-year-old Peggy McMath and ransom her back to her family, who obviously had enough money to pay a reasonable price. Hey, Kenneth. Fuck you. Go fuck yourself. We hate you. Yeah. Yeah. And he said he figured kidnappings happened every day, so it couldn't really be. It couldn't be that hard to successfully pull one off, and he didn't plan to hurt anybody. Yeah. And, like, don't worry about traumatizing the child. That's the thing. Like, we don't have to worry about that. I love that he's, like, nobody has to get hurt. I'm like, accept the fucking trauma that this little girl is about to endure. In her family. Yeah. Hello? But don't worry, because it'll be easy. I'd call that hurt. That's what matters. So on the morning of May 2nd, Kenneth decided it was time to set his plan into motion. But then something occurred to him. He had been at the McMath house. They knew his face. Yeah, they sure did. The family had seen him. They could identify him easily. So needing to disguise his appearance, he decided to be an asshole times 47, and he gathered up as many cork stoppers as he could and took them out to the woods behind his mom's house and burned them all. With the remains of the cork in a pile on the ground, he then scooped up the ashy substance and started wiping it all over his face. And he was now wearing what he considered and what we all would consider blackface. Kenneth. Hello? Kenneth. Hello? Ken. Why? Ken, really? Really. Really, Ken? Because he figured, he said later, that if anybody saw him during the kidnapping, they would think that Peggy was taken by a black man. So now we've added racism into this kidnapping scheme. Ken. Yeah. Now, obviously. I'm astounded. We all are. That's the stupidity of this man. We all are. Truly. Obviously, it didn't occur to him that blackface is not even remotely similar to the natural coloring of black and brown skin. And it also didn't help matters that he'd done a really bad job applying all the soot in the first place. The sides of his face were far darker than the coloring around his eyes, nose, and mouth. And because he's a moron, he also just missed a few spots. Yeah, so he's just gonna look like a monster. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So after donning what he believed was a disguise, Kenneth drove to the post office. And so he went out into public like this, by the way. Like, people saw him. Yeah, that's not shocking. Yeah. And he placed a call to Peggy's school, identifying himself as her father and saying that he was sending a driver to pick up his daughter early and she needed to be ready out front when the man arrived. Damn. And the school said, you got it. Oh! It was the 30s. It was the 30s. I hate it. Yeah. I hate it. As journalist Alex Kingsbury wrote, a more impulsive villain might have sped directly to the schoolhouse to snatch Peggy before anybody caught on to his ruse, but Buck was not that kind of criminal. No, of course not. So instead, he lingered outside of the post office for a while before going back in and placing a second call, this time to the McMath house. And when somebody answered on the other end, he identified himself as an employee with the phone company and asked the McMaths to leave their phone off the hook for 10 minutes while they conducted some tests on the line. Later, when she was interviewed by police, Mrs. McMath noted that she thought it was pretty strange when she heard the sound of a coin being dropped into the phone box and she wondered why an employee from the phone company would be calling her from a payphone. Yeah, that is curious. Yeah. But now, Kenneth was confident that nobody from the school would be calling the McMath house to verify the pickup. So he got in his car and he drove over to the school where Peggy was outside waiting just by the front door. He approached her. I'm going to beat the shit out of Ken. Yeah, me too. Retroactively. Let's beat his butt. Yeah. He approached her and he said that her mom had sent him to pick her up and that she was to go with him and he'd bring her home. And he's wearing the stuff on his face? Yes. Yes. So he looks terrifying. Yeah. So whether it was that or just the general air of menace that surrounded Kenneth Buck, Peggy found something off about him and she hesitated. And she remembered that they did have a black driver in the past, but she was like, that's definitely not this guy. She's like, yeah, this is not a black man. No. This is clearly a monster. But before she could go back inside the school or alert anybody, he grabbed her by the arm and pulled her into the passenger seat of the car telling her, shut up or I'll chloroform you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I hope. Kenneth is wherever he is. He's getting the shit kicked out of him daily. I believe in the universe and I believe that he is. Fuck this guy. Yeah. That's why I always tell your kids, obviously this was a long time ago, always tell your kids that no one's going to pick them up except for you. People that they know. Yes. Like you'll never send a stranger to pick your child up. No. So now safely away from the school, he drove to a nearby wooded area that was isolated and off the main street. And after pulling over, he yanked Peggy out of the car, tied her hands and feet. She's 10. She's 10. This is really awful. She's not assaulted sexually. So that's something we should all hold on to that. Yeah. He put a gag in her mouth and he laid her in the back seat. Once she was secured, he pulled back onto the road and drove a short distance to just a random shack alongside a cranberry bog. And that's where he mostly held her for ransom. And he's like, it'll be easy. No one's going to get hurt. I'm just going to leave this 10-year-old in a cranberry bog. Leave this child for the rest of her life, you fucking asshole. 100%. So having pulled off the first phase of his, you know, ridiculous plan here, most kidnappers probably would have stayed with the victim to ensure that nothing went wrong. But Kenneth Buck was not most criminals, as we've all been finding out together. After leaving Peggy at the shack, he left and went down the road to meet his friend, Walter Cahoon, for a round of golf. After he's just kidnapped and placed, a 10-year-old girl bound in a shack by a cranberry bog. Went to go play a round of golf. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This is the same Kenneth that everyone's like, yeah, I don't know. He's a good guy. It's the wildest thing. Yeah, that's insane. That's shameful, truly. Now, leaving your victim alone is a pretty unwise thing to do in and of itself, obviously. But he took the extra risk of talking about his crimes with his friend, Walter. He told the man that he'd foolishly agreed to, quote, watch him. Hooch for a gang of bootleggers. But when he showed up, it turned out not to be Moonshine, but a little girl that the gang was holding for ransom. Just playing a round of golf. Just golf talk. He just told his friend. Over a round of golf. That he was watching a kidnapping victim. Like, sorry I'm late. Sorry. Sorry I'm late. I had to keep an eye on a kidnapping victim. That I didn't kidnap. Hello? This is, like, unbelievable. It really is. It really is. Now, when Peggy didn't get off the bus after school, her parents immediately knew that something was wrong. Ugh, that feeling. Just your worst nightmare. Literally a parent's worst nightmare. Yeah. The entire time I was watching Animals, I was like, this is fake. Worst nightmare ever. This is real. Yeah. It's like, I can't imagine putting myself in this headspace. So Mrs. McMath called the school, and she was told that her husband had instructed them to send Peggy home with the driver hours earlier. And she was like, no, we certainly did not. And knowing that, he had not made that call. Neil called the police around 3.30 and reported his daughter missing. I can't believe, I know it was a long time ago, but it's like, I can't believe that our brains didn't understand back then that, like, you should probably make sure that when someone picks a child up from school, that they actually know that person. And that the parents had actually called. Yeah. Like, why did that take us so long to be like, we should confirm that? Imagine just sending a 10-year-old out in the front of the school and being like, ah, your driver's gonna be here. Whatever adult comes to pick you up, just go with that person. Like, it's like, we, there were kidnappings. They were happening. They were trending. So it's like, maybe we should think about that. And, like, really put some safety protocols into place. Yeah, I think that's wild. It took too long. Well, under the circumstances, investigators were more or less certain that Peggy had been kidnapped because they knew it was trending. And emergency bulletins were sent out across New England as far south as New York and as far north as the Canadian border. With the Lindbergh case not that far behind them, it was at the front of everybody's mind that even in cases of ransom, things can go horribly wrong and end tragically. So the press was not immediately made aware of the kidnapping. Jeez. But when the night came and they still hadn't found any sign of Peggy or heard from her captor, it became pretty clear to Neil McMath that they would need the help of the newspaper if they were going to recover Peggy safely. Yeah. So the next morning, the press was informed of Peggy's kidnapping and the McMaths held a press conference to address the kidnapper directly. Neil said, all I'm interested in is the return of the child. That is our whole concern. I will pay all I can raise kidnappers and will not prosecute if the child is returned. Now, there was also mention of an agreed-upon 48-hour moratorium between the McMaths and the police, meaning that if everything was solved within that 48-hour period, the police would stay out of it, which was a thing back then. That's crazy. Yeah. I think it was just in the hopes to get more kids home alive. Yeah. Because like, okay, you won't face consequences. Yeah, like just bring the child home. Yeah. The details on that moratorium are a little unclear when it comes to whether or not the local police actually agreed to that. That's interesting. And eventually, the state police got involved anyway, so it was kind of null and void. But after Neil McMath had made a statement, investigators stepped in to provide the few details that they had. At the time, they believed they were, quote, dealing with a desperate band of kidnappers and hoped that they could be reasoned with. I don't know why they thought they were dealing with a band of kidnappers. I think that was just like a theory that they really went with. Interesting. But they spent the previous day and night conducting a thorough search across the Cape, paying particular attention to passing cars, and they still hadn't found any signs of Little Peggy anywhere. The press conference closed with Neil McMath reminding the kidnappers that he and his wife would be waiting in the front room of their home for anybody to send any kind of information about a ransom demand. Let's take a break to thank the sponsor of today's episode, Netflix. We're covering some intense topics today, guys. And the big takeaway here is that no one can imagine how they would react to somebody they love being threatened or in some kind of intense trouble. It's impossible to know who to trust, even the ones that you think you trust the most in your life, who to rely on, how to navigate these kinds of situations. And we see this all play out in the film Animals as this mayoral candidate and his wife are working their way through the process through super tense moments, trying to bring home their kidnapped son. They're put in an inconceivable position, multiple inconceivable positions, to be honest, after their son is kidnapped and they have to make these tough decisions to get him back. It's honestly a horrible thing to even conceive of. It absolutely is. I could not even picture being in that. And the thing that really, I mean, the story brought me in, but also the people who are in this, come on, we got Gillian Anderson, the queen herself. Scully. She's a national treasure. She's so good. And she is serving in this. She looks stunning in that white power suit, red bottom shoes. She looks amazing. And she's also just fierce. Oh, fierce in every sense of the word. Truly fierce. And when everything starts breaking down, when the chaos ensues, she feels like she is truly the grounding force here. No, she really does. The characters are also, they felt like flawed, but so real. So real at the same time. Like Abby, Mark, Sam, they feel like fully realized human beings with these very complex lives that are ongoing throughout this horrible situation. I love that. And I like that this movie doesn't flinch away from the ugly parts of life and the things that are like haunting them while they're being thrust into this nightmare. And the setup at the beginning, like without spoiling anything, showing them navigating through daily things that we all live through, all while something nefarious was afoot. It freaked me out. - Yeah. - Like to say the least. - Stay safe, stay safe out there brothers. Truly. And I think one of the things about this movie that's so impressive too, it's kind of going right off of what you just said, is that everyone has so many facets. It's like peeling away an onion as you watch it. There are twists, there are turns, like even the story feels like a little onion you're peeling around. It was incredibly well-written, so well-performed. And the direction got my, I was like, my aura ring was yelling at me. It was like, your pulse is up. Literally heart pounding. That's the thing. While I was watching, I was sitting there trying to put myself in their shoes as much as I could without losing my mind, because I would lose my ever-loving mind in this situation. And the performances were just so raw, so real that I was dialed in. And I just wanted everybody to get through the film like unscathed somehow. Yes. It really is. It's like the pacing of the film, the direction of the film. There were so many moments during the whole thing where I didn't even realize that I was holding my breath. No, same. And there's this one particular montage that happens that just set me off. Yeah. Again, I'm surprised it wasn't like, hey, are you dead? Hey, we're checking in on you. Are you going to survive watching this film? No, it was an intense watch, but my gosh, it's so good. Watch Animals now playing only on Netflix rated R. So unfortunately, after 48 hours, the investigation had not amounted to much. Their house-to-house canvas hadn't turned up any leads. They did come across a report of a summer cottage along the beach that had been broken into, and they believed that was connected to the kidnapping, but it ultimately led nowhere. And investigators did find somebody who witnessed the crime, one of Peggy's fellow students, 10-year-old Jack Shaughnessy. Jack told the police she didn't want to get in the car. The man pulled her inside, and she started to cry. Aw. He told her to shut up. And drove away to North Harwich, which, can we talk about a 10-year-old knowing which direction North is? I know, that was actually really impressive. That, if you asked me at 10 years old which direction they drove in, I'd be like, um, to the McDonald's over there? I don't know. He also provided a description of the man, which went out on the wire to newspapers around the country. He said he was 5'8", about 150 pounds, thin build, very black, color did not look natural. Like, by the way. Even a fucking 10-year-old was like, nope. Not a black man, he just had black stuff on his face. Now, Kenneth Buck's plan seemed, on his end of things, to be going smoothly, but the press conference threw him something of a curveball. He had concocted and executed the entire plan by himself, but now the McMath's offer of the ransom, which he was literally after all along, offered a new challenge. How was he going to go to the house with the ransom demand without revealing himself as the kidnapper? Oh, you know? He literally hadn't thought of that. Definitely wouldn't think that through before. Like, again, I say. It's going to be easy. Hello? Yeah, it's going to be easy. Don't worry about it. So short on ideas, he turned to his brother Cyril and begged him to act as a liaison between himself and the McMaths. If their assurances had been genuine, there would be no risk of Cyril being arrested. Or so they thought. I love you. No, I love you too. I won't do that for you. I'm not going to. I would do anything for you, but I won't do that. But I won't do that. No, I won't do that. As Meatloaf would say. say. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, not meatloaf. No. Not meatloaf. Rip, I guess. So Cyril never really minded getting mixed up in the bootlegging schemes, but this was next level. Good. Cyril's like, no. Oh, I'm not, I'm giving him too much credit. I said, honey, wait. I said, Cyril, just stay with the bootlegging. I know. He was like, this is kind of a lot. But at the same time, he never ignored his brother's pleas for help. Oh, fuck that. He saw no reason to start then. So he was like. Start it then. Sure. I see about a billion reasons to start then. As do I, my friend. Now taking, this is so sad. Taking Peggy's lunchbox and a handwritten note from her as proof of life. I'm going to kill them both. I can't say it. I'm going to kick them in the shins. Yeah. Yeah. Till they fall over and hit their head on concrete. And then whatever happens after that happens. Period. That's what I say. I like that a lot. So armed with that, Cyril went to the McMath's house and identified himself as just the go-between. In addition to the items he brought as proof, he also handed over a ransom note demanding $250,000, which today would be $6.4 million. Fuck you, Kenneth. Come on. Are you kidding me? It's the Great Depression. Yeah. And like this family was well off, but $6.4 million, not everybody just has access to that. No. Hello? What the fuck? I can't stop saying hello. That's all you can say for this. Truly. So this, this time was shocking and obviously quite upsetting. Neil told Cyril, there's not that much money in Detroit. If Peggy's return depends on my raising that amount of money, then I've lost my daughter. Oh, that's awful. Like he was like, I literally am incapable of that. And can you imagine how her parents felt? Like they're like, holy shit, we're never going to get her back. Yeah. Like, nightmare. Nightmare, nightmare, nightmare. Truly. So given that the state police had said they wouldn't be adhering to the proposed moratorium, Neil McMath wanted to do everything he could to keep investigators away from the case. Yeah. Which is, you know. Yeah. I get it. Like, would I do it? Probably not. Yeah. But you're like, it's a tough situation. You can see the logic that's happening here. So when he was asked about whether or not he'd been contacted by the kidnappers, he told investigators that he believed Peggy was being held in Mashpee, knowing that it would divert attention away from Harwich. Cyril said this? No, Neil. Oh, he was trying to divert. He was diverting attention. Yeah. He said, I was doing everything in my power to secure the safe return of my child. I wanted that in spite of the police, the state of Massachusetts, and the whole country. He's just trying to do what he thinks is right. You're in a state of. I'm not saying I would do the same thing, but I can't say what I would do in that situation. No, you're in a state of absolute desperation. I mean, we saw it in animals. Yeah. In the meantime, Cyril returned to his brother and was like, hey, they don't have that much money. And like. The entire state doesn't have that much money, so. And he was like, what's your plan? Yeah, he's like, that was stupid. What are you going to do here? Which you would kind of. I'm like, Cyril, did you think for one second to be like, hey, brother, since I'm helping you out with this, you shouldn't demand that much. Like, I'd be like, you should probably bring that number down. It seems that they may have had that kind of conversation. Yeah, there we go. Because not wanting to blow the opportunity. No, you got to get paid. The grand opportunity here. You want to get that bag. Kenneth was like, all right, all right, all right. Offer them $60,000. Like, that's the price. That's about. That came down significantly. It's so. When I told. What did I say? It was $6.4 million, right? Yeah, it's $250,000. Yeah. Today, that would be $1.5 million. Damn. Still a lot of money. A lot of money, but that came down significantly. But like, who taught you how to bargain? Yeah. That's bad bargaining. He was like, fine. Neil obviously accepted. And he started making arrangements to get the money. The plan was that once he secured the money, Neil himself would go meet the kidnappers in the cabin of a boat belonging to his business partner, Bill Lee. And when he arrived that evening to literally give money in exchange to get his daughter back, Neil was met by Cyril and Kenneth Buck. Kenneth was wearing a burlap sack hood with eye holes. Nylon stockings on his hands. Get out of here. And boots that were several sizes too large. Just to throw everybody off. Get the. Get out of here. I just. Get out of town. I love that this man thinks he's a genius. He's like, you will never know. He donned that costume slash disguise slash tomfoolery, whatever you want to call it. Straight up tomfoolery. And he was like, I am the smartest kidnapper that ever kidnapped. He said, nylons on my hands? Yeah. We good. You don't even know if I have hands. They might be feet. Maybe because these are nylons. Check it. Who could tell? It's ridiculous. You're also ridiculous. Can't identify me as having hands. Nay, nay, I say. No, no. So the second phase of his plan was as simple as the first. His plan. Yeah. It's a stretch to even call it that. They would receive the cash for McMath. Then Kenneth, still in his quote unquote disguise, would fetch Peggy from the shack where he'd been holding her and return her to her father. Looking like that. Looking like that. That won't hurt anyone. No. Once they were reunited, Neil and Peggy would remain in the cabin of the boat under Cyril's watch for a full 48 hours, giving Kenneth then ample time to make his escape before anybody could call the police. 48 hours? Yeah. He's got to get out of there, Elena. You better have so many snacks in there. Honestly. 48 hours? That's a long time. I think he had already held her for like 60 too. Jesus. Yeah. Now after leaving the boat with the money, Kenneth held up his end of the bargain, returning a short time later with Peggy, delivered safely to her father as promised. After completing the drop, Kenneth left the boat, leaving the McMaths under his brother's responsibility for the next 48 hours. Unfortunately though for Kenneth, the news of Peggy's return somehow made its way back to the state police. Somehow. And Public Safety General Daniel Needham contacted the Coast Guard and arranged for a patrol to search the boat. Hell yeah. When sailors arrived at the dock and entered the cabin, they found the boat was in the dock, and they found Peggy inside along with Neil, Cyril Buck, and Harold Sawyer, who was the banker who had delivered the money. All four men were immediately taken out of the immediately arrested and taken into custody, along with Peggy. Not arrested, obviously, but taken into custody. And they were taken to the state police barracks to be questioned. Despite being extremely irritated with Neil McMath for defying their orders and fully thwarting their efforts to save his daughter, investigators actually didn't really believe that he had anything to do with the kidnapping. Cyril, on the other hand, had a criminal history and a connection to another criminal, his brother Kenneth. Yeah. So after hours of interrogation, he gave up his brother as the kidnapper and told police where he could find him, where they could find him. Cyril is a wild sibling. Cyril is. Like he's a, he was ride or die to a fault for a minute. And I was like, you're too much of a sibling. Like that's too much. Too far. And now he's like, why don't I just give you up? And it's like, you have no median. Like there's no median. Yeah, Cyril doesn't know a lot about the median. He's here for a good time, not a long time. Truly. Now, Peggy was also shown a lineup of several men and she identified Kenneth as the man who wore the mask immediately. And she said the mask looked like a bunny, which is so scary. Ew. I didn't like that. Not a cute bunny, I'm sure. Now, having not had adequate time to make his escape, detectives quickly caught up with Kenneth and arrested him immediately. Because he's an idiot. At first, he tried the same story on police that he used on his friend a few days earlier. He said he agreed to watch over that large stash of rum, for some local bootleggers. But the rum turned out to be a kidnapping plot. And he was really expected to look after Peggy. Oh my God. When you're expecting rum and you get a kid, it's crazy. It's the most nuts thing ever. It fucks me up every time. It's crazy. I never know what to do. It happens so often. I never planned for it. I know. It's crazy. Next time. Yeah. Well, the problem was Kenneth had thought through so many different aspects of his plan, I guess. That's an overstatement. That's strong. He had like given them thought. Yeah. He had given them like a fraction of the thought. But the one thing that he considered or forgot to consider altogether was what he would do and say if he was caught. Yeah. Because he really thought he was a mastermind. Yeah. He thought he had this. So as a result, when he threw out that dumb ass story about the bootleggers, it sounded so vague that detectives were like, yeah, that's not the truth. Want to try again? You idiot. Later that night when they searched his mother's house, they also found the entire ransom amount hidden in his bedroom closet. In his bedroom closet at his mom's house. Yeah. You could not be a bigger loser if you fucking tried. You truly couldn't. Kenneth Buck. Kenneth. Loser. Buck. Yeah. So they were like, yeah, pretty sure you did this all by yourself. You idiot. When confronted with that discovery, Kenneth broke down and confessed everything. He said, or when asked why he got it. He was like, ah, he got me. He was like, oh, that's crazy. I shouldn't have put that in my closet. Should have hid it under my bed instead. Yeah. When asked why he had done that, you know, a kidnapping. A kidnap. Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that kidnapping? Yeah. Honestly, without nonchalant everybody is, that might be a direct quote that I just like, like was mediumed to me. Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that stealing a kid? Why'd you, why'd you go for that, buddy? He just said it was for the sole purpose of the money. Yeah. He started crying as he told his story and he insisted that nobody else was involved in the case and that Cyril had only acted as the go-between and had no other stake in the crime. I'm pretty sure Cyril wasn't even getting money out of this. Did Cyril know where he was? Did Cyril know what day of the week it was? I feel like Cyril is just, he's just going. I'm getting Uncle Fester vibes. I'm getting somebody who just is like, okay, whatever. Sure. Whatever works. I think he was just happy to be alive. I'm getting someone who says whatever's clever a lot. Whatever is clever was absolutely his like. When you talk to Cyril, he would just go, whatever's clever. Yeah, that was his yearbook quote, I think. Yep. Now, given how extensively they'd searched the town and the surrounding areas, it surprised Kenneth, he said, that nobody had found Peggy in the shack. In fact, not long after he dropped her there and left to go play fucking nine holes. Yeah. That's what it is, right? Nine holes. There's 18, I think. I think sometimes there's nine, sometimes there's 18. Yeah, you can play half. I bet he played full. He probably did. He played 18. So, but not long after he did that, a small fire broke out in the wooded area around the shack, which was believed to have been caused by one of his own, smoldering cigarettes, by the way. So, he almost murdered this child as well. Yeah, yeah. And by accident. Maybe. Firefighters arrived quickly and extinguished the fire, but either nobody thought to look inside the shed where Peggy was, or Kenneth had already moved her into the cellar of an unoccupied house, which he later admitted to. He's disgusting. He truly is. And also, he's just like, he's like lying to like make firefighters feel bad, I think. Yeah, to be like, oh, you idiots, you didn't find her. It's like, no. You're the worst here. I also, who knows? It was a wily time to be alive. It was. So, maybe they didn't find her. I'm not sure. But despite the traumatic experience of having spent several days bound and gagged in a shed and a cellar with absolutely no idea what was going to happen to her. And it was like dark at night and just like by yourself. And cold, probably, yeah. Oh. But despite all of that, Peggy's return home was treated with a brief period of fanfare and excitement from the press, of course. And then everything just returned back to normal. The next Monday, Peggy went back to school like nothing had ever happened. Me, I'd bubble wrap my child and never send them into the world again. I would never send her to school again. No, I'd be like, I'm going to take up homeschooling. And I know that's probably irrational, but I literally don't care. Oh, I know it's irrational. I don't care. Yeah. I would also wrap her in bubble wrap. I'm not kidding. Yeah, no, she'd never leave my side. No. I'd be like, we're going to be weird now. But they were so 1930s about it. According to author Alex Kingsbury, who we'll link in the show notes, the family decided never to speak of the 60-hour ordeal ever again. Jesus Christ, that's healthy. It's the most 1930s approach to anything I've ever heard in my life. They said, hey, all that trauma, swallow that, babe. Don't talk about it. Swallow it and get to school. You got homework to catch up on. Isn't that bananas? That's not even a new school either. The same school she was kidnapped from. Just scene of the crime. They said, don't, and I don't want to hear about being triggered. Get out of here. They said, don't. Get out of here. They said, that's not even a word. Get out of here. They said, honey. Holy shit. And then the people at school are just like, ugh. Remember that time you were kidnapped? And she's like, I'm not supposed to talk about it. Yeah. What the fuck? Yeah, the administrators were like, we'll try not to do that again. And then the kids were probably like, hey, what happened when you were kidnapped? And she was like, I'm not allowed to talk about it. Yeah, she was like, I don't know. We're never going to talk about it again. What do you have for lunch? I'm like, was it the same lunchbox that they stole from her and used as proof of life? Probably. It absolutely was. It was the depression. Of course it was. They were going to buy her another lunchbox. That's so fucked. That's outrageous. When it's at a party. Yeah. Yeah. It's all the time. All the time. Even outside of a party. So the McMath family may have wanted to forget the entire incident and put it all the way behind them. And then some. But the state of Massachusetts was not so willing to forgive and forget. No way. Initially, Kenneth and Cyril were indicted on charges of kidnapping and extortion, and they were both bound over for trial. Confident that they had everything they needed to get a conviction. The district attorney requested a trial date be set as soon as possible, and the Bucks were scheduled to go to trial in mid-June. Now, Kenneth Buck was so confident that his plan would be a success, he never saw this outcome as even a remote possibility. And when he learned of his rapidly approaching trial and likely conviction, he immediately fainted in his cell. And when he was revived, he, quote, started to thrash about until a doctor was called in to sedate him. Somebody should have just farted in his face. That's one way to handle things. Somebody should have given that guy a pink eye. Yeah. Period. Period, sister. I don't know. That's what we used to do to kidnappers, fart in their faces. I've never heard you make a fart joke quite like that. I don't know if I've heard you make a fart joke. I had way more awful shit to say, and I felt like it was going to get too gnarly, so I just went with the tried and true. You fully dumbed it down. It's a bad thing. Somebody should fart in that guy's face. I went to the complete opposite of what I was thinking. Crazy mama. The total other end of the spectrum is where I went. Well, here's the thing. It's unclear if anybody farted in his face or if he was setting the stage for an insanity defense. But if that was the case, it didn't work. No. He was taken to the state psychiatric hospital in Bridgewater, where he was evaluated and deemed sane. And then he was returned back into the sheriff's custody. They were like, no, you're just an asshole. Pretty much. And they said somebody should fart in your face. Yes. Now, the trial started June 15th. And the defense, Willard Carlton, managed to score major victories right out of the gate. I said the defense. That's not good. Part of Kenneth's confession was ruled inadmissible. And the prosecution had to admit that they had no evidence that really implicated Cyril as anything other than a contact man. As for the confession, the judge determined that Kenneth had inadvertently given his confession during a conversation with detectives. Yeah. So under the circumstances, it was unclear if he was aware that he was confessing. And since they weren't sure if the confession was given voluntarily, most of it was ruled out. I love how they're just like, we all know Ken's an idiot. Yeah. So. But I'm like, guys, at the end of the day, he kidnapped this kid. At the end of the day, literally everyone knows he did it. Like, his own brother is like, yeah, it happened. Honestly, at the end of the day, can we all fart in his face? Literally. At once. Does everyone line up? Let's collectively fart. We'll go to Chipotle and then we'll get him. So despite the very. Like, let's get him. Let's get serious. Despite the very serious nature of the case and the potential. It is serious. Honestly, we're kind of foreshadowing here. There was a potential sentence, like a big potential sentence of either or both of them was found guilty, but the trial had a remarkably lighthearted and at times even humorous tone. That's horrifying. It really is. The 1930s were so fucking wily. It really was. For example, when asked to read back his statement that he gave to the police, the jury was frequently stirred to laughter by the dramatic way in which Searle read his statement and the sarcastic side comments that he made while he was reading. Okay. Here's the thing. What are you doing laughing at the person who helped commit this crime, making funnies on the stand? Like, that's not where you laugh. I have no idea. That's not where you laugh. They're not funny men. I have no idea. They're funny men when we laugh at them and say, you're dumb. Yes. And let's laugh at those funny men. Yes. They're not comical. Like, they're not something to enjoy. Yeah. Don't, like, build him up like that. Hey, jury, shut up. I mean, back then it was probably all men, so. Just shut up. Shut up. Now, in another incident. While being questioned by the prosecution, one of the investigators on the case started laughing so hysterically that the judge had to call a recess to get everything under control. Massachusetts. I'm like, you're investigating the kidnapping of a 10-year-old girl from her school. What was funny there? I don't know what they were laughing at. I got a bone to pick with 1930s Massachusetts. So do I. I really do. Massachusetts is pretty unserious about a lot of things. But, like, we love to be a little unserious, but, like, that's too far. This is too far. Yeah. Yeah. Now, when Cyril was called to the stand by the prosecution, he did at one point, though, become so overwhelmed by emotion that he collapsed out of his chair and had to be assisted back to the defense table. What a little bitch. And the judge had to call for another brief recess for him to, like, regain his composure. Because he has such a delicate constitution. He really does. When he returned, he gave his account of events, claiming that he genuinely believed his brother had been roped into the kidnapping scheme by bootleggers. No, he didn't. And he just wanted to help him get out unscathed. I don't believe you. As evidence of his ignorance, though, he pointed out that he refused to accept the $10,000 offered to him by Kenneth. So there was a small fee. A fact that was verified by Neil McMath, Peggy's own father, when they were arrested upon discovery on the boat. Okay. So, like, so good that you didn't take the $10,000 from, you know, the kidnapping of that child. Yeah. That's great. On June 26, 1933, the jury deliberated for seven hours before returning to the courtroom to announce that they had found Kenneth Buck guilty. Of kidnapping and extortion. Cyril, on the other hand, was acquitted of both charges. I had a feeling. Yeah. When the verdict was read aloud by the foreman, Bertha Buck broke down into tears. And while Cyril attempted to go to his brother's side, he was restrained by the bailiff because you're not allowed to do that. Yeah, you can't do that. No. God, Cyril. I know. It's ridiculous. Christ, leave. Kenneth's lawyer was equally outraged. He jumped to his feet and shouted, I know the Commonwealth wants to make an example of this case. Why can't we? Why can't we have a sentence that is not too long? We can punish him for his crime and also help his poor mother, his wife, and his little son. How about I hit you in your face with a chair? Oh, you don't even get the fart, boy. No, you get hit in the face with a chair. You get a chair to the head. Damn, that was such an escalation. I went back to my roots. I found myself. I was being someone else before. I like that, Kenneth, you're going to fart in his face, but his lawyer, you're going to be with a chair. I feel we should switch that around, probably. I let loose. You did. I let loose. Now, the judge considered the request, but ultimately imposed a sentence of 25 years in a work camp. When asked if he had anything to say on his behalf, Kenneth pretended that he didn't do it again, I guess, and simply said, I told you before I went to trial that I was to be framed. Now I have been framed. Kenneth. They found the ransom in your closet, babe. Yeah, like. At your mommy's house. It's up. Boy. The jig has been up. Come on. Now, he appealed his conviction several times, taking it all the way to the Supreme Court, large, uh, state Supreme Court, largely on the grounds that his confession had been elicited without his express consent, yada, yada, yada. The stupid stuff. But each time, it was denied. And despite his criminal ways, he apparently turned out to be a model prisoner, and he also even tried to join the army in 1944 to get out of jail, I'm pretty sure. But his request was denied. And although nobody denied that he should have been punished for his crimes. Oh, God. A surprise. A surprising number of Cape Cod residents felt that the sentence was unduly harsh. Guys. Guys. You're not gonna believe this next part. Even Neil McMath. No. Peggy's Faja. Became an advocate for Kenneth Buck in the mid-1940s, appealing to the court to reduce his sentence and even offer him early parole. Kenneth was paroled in 1949 and just disappeared from the spotlight. Wow. After the kidnapping, the McMath family remained. They were in Cape Cod for another year, and they just told Peggy not to talk about anything. Yeah. Just shut up. Until Neil McMath accepted a job in Detroit, and they left Massachusetts. In a statement to the press, he said, Please make it clear my leaving the Cape has nothing whatsoever to do with the occurrence of last spring. And he added that he and his family still had a great- Which we won't talk about. He was like, I'm not even gonna name it. The incident. Just the incident. The incident capitalized. And added that he and his family still had a great fondness for the community there, and they intended to return for summers whenever possible. Well, trauma be damned. Yeah. Now, our girl Peggy- Yeah, how's Peggy doing in all this? She went on to join the Navy as a meteorologist's mate near the end of World War II. My girl is thriving. Can you say bad bitch? Yeah. She rarely spoke of the kidnapping, and really just, she wasn't really allowed to. And she generally tried to just proceed with her life like it never happened. Wow. But it was clear to those who knew her best that there was trauma there. Yeah, and she wasn't allowed to talk about it. And she pushed her in ways that she either couldn't or just wouldn't see. Yeah. Her daughter later told a reporter she never, ever, ever got over it. Just pretended that she had a happy childhood, and that was it. Woof. Now, in 2014, she died from natural causes at the age of 91. Oh, my girl. Her obituary made no mention of the kidnapping, and her daughter believes that is what her mother would have wanted. Aw. To become such a remarkable woman- Seriously, after all of that? After being kidnapped at 10 years old. And she herself had kids? Like, had a daughter? She had a daughter, at least, yeah. I would be- She must have been terrified- I'm sure she was. That the same thing could happen. I'm sure she was. But obviously, it doesn't sound like it, you know- Affected her daughter. She, like, put it on her daughter. No. Wow. What an incredible woman. I'm so glad that Peggy thrived after that. Me too. She's honestly the winner in all of this. She absolutely is. She's the biggest winner. And to work, like, for the fucking Navy at the end of World War II- You've got to be so smart. As a lady. Peggy. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. Fuck Kenny. Fuck Kenny. Fuck anyone who thought that he was a completely nice guy. Fuck anyone who wouldn't have farted in his face. Truly. Thank you so much to Netflix for sponsoring the episode today. Because holy shit. We loved animals, and wow, how similar was this? Yeah, it really worked out. Yeah, it did. Yeah. So, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you- Keep it weird. But not so weird that you concoct a, I guess, not elaborate kidnapping scheme. No. And still try to pull it off. Don't do an elaborate one or a simple one. No kidnapping scheme. Stop kidnapping. Don't do it. Do keep it so weird that you fart in criminals' faces. Yes. Take that up. Take that up. If you can. Take that hobby up. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again to the sponsor of today's bonus episode of Morbid, Netflix. How far would you go when somebody threatens everything you know, including your loved ones? Who can you trust? When a Los Angeles mayoral candidate's son is kidnapped, he and his wife are pulled into this massive web of deception. And they're forced to make life-altering choices that could tear their world apart. From Academy Award winner Ben Affleck, Animal stars Affleck himself, Kerry Washington, Gillian Anderson, and Steven Yeun. And honestly, the performance is completely outstanding. It's a stacked cast. It really is. And I just couldn't tear myself away from it. I had to know how it ended. It's one of those that you're just like, nope, I'm here. Yeah, I'm locked in. I loved that it didn't have an ambiguous ending. There is a time and place for that for sure. Totally. I can get down with an ambiguous ending. But I needed to know all the details of this after hanging out with all these people during the worst night of their lives. I was like, give me an ending. No, I need to know what's going on. And without spoiling anything, it was I was like, OK, yeah, exactly. I mean, also, it is spooky season and that might sound crazy, but this is a different kind of scare. It sure is. Every parent's worst nightmare. The worst kind of scare. Yeah, it's the worst one. And it's fascinating to watch how these characters react to being kind of put in like a metaphorical pressure cooker. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's engrossing, completely engrossing. I watched it with people, but we were riveted and literally didn't speak to each other until it was all over. I said silencio. According to the interwebs, by the way, they say the mood heavy, tense trailers have drawn praise for building a dark, unsettling atmosphere. And I could not agree more. Correct. They perfectly execute this movie and they make you it almost feels like you're like a fly on the wall just looking in on this family situation. Like you shouldn't be there almost. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Watch animals. Now playing only on Netflix. Rated R.