O.J. Simpson's Accomplice Finally Revealed

Hi, I'm Karen Slaughter. If you love untangling mysteries and uncovering the truth behind what really happened, I think you'll love "The Good Daughter." Charlie, go! Sam! Now my best-selling novel is finally coming to life, and I got to write every episode. You should have died in them woods. Your father should have been a better shot. Starring Rose Byrne, Megan Fahey, and Brendan Gleeson. From page to screen, don't miss "The Good Daughter," now streaming only on Peacock. I'm here, Charlie, and I'm not going away. It looks to me that O.J. Simpson had an accomplice in the murders of Ronald Lyle Goldman and Nicole Brown. And it looks to me that that accomplice was Joey Ippolito, Jr. When we got to learn about Joey, we were blown away by everything that he was involved in. He was a drug smuggler. In our meetings with the FBI, they told us unequivocally that Joe Ippolito was selling large amounts of cocaine directly to O.J. Simpson, Nicole Brown, and Al Kalix. I know for a fact that they had some of the information that we've uncovered, and they chose not to use it. I believe that they already know the answer, and they're afraid of what that answer's gonna say. Who was O.J. Simpson's accomplice in the gruesome murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman on that fateful night back in June of 1994? For over 30 years, conspiracy theories have pointed to different potentials. But finally, investigative journalist Alex Tomei is convinced he knows the true identity of the culprit. He was a man named Joey Ippolito, a mafia-connected drug dealer and career criminal who the FBI claims confessed to being at Bundy Drive with O.J. while the murders took place, and then afterwards helped dump the murder weapon along with O.J.'s blood-soaked clothing. So what was Joey Ippolito's connection to O.J. Simpson? And what was the motive behind the killing? And perhaps most importantly, why did the Los Angeles prosecutor's office choose to ignore evidence linking Ippolito to the murders even after the FBI informed them of his confession in 1995 while the Simpson murder trial was still going on? Alex is about to explain all of this. His new documentary, "O.J.'s Accomplice," is out right now on Peacock, and his book, "Orenthal's Accomplice," is available worldwide. In my opinion, this finally settles the question of who the second killer was in one of the most famous murder cases in American history. And we've got the man who exposed it all. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Alex Tomei, right here on The Connect with Jonny Mitchell. Alex, thanks for doing this. Why do you think people get so angry when you bring up the subject of an accomplice in the Nicole Brown Simpson murders? Well, I think, Jonny, and first of all, it's nice to be here. I think "Angry" is right. I think that the prosecution and the media kind of intertwine together, maybe even join forces to present a certain narrative. And it's that old adage, you know, you hear something 100,000 times, you start to believe it. Well, it's been 30 years of it. So, you know, they've only really been presented with one version of events. And, you know, when you hear something new, it makes you uncomfortable. I get a lot of pushback from my African-American fans. They hate it. "Let that man be." Well, OK, if you believe O.J. was innocent, which is an insane thing to believe, but if you believe that, why wouldn't you want to believe that he had help? Yeah. You know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean. Jonny, look, I started this endeavor believing O.J. was innocent, you know? And that's because I really put a lot of stock into the defense's private investigators, not the attorneys, although I thought some of them were masterful. But the investigators, one specifically, Pat McKenna, one of the best private investigators in the world. And he is convinced that O.J. didn't do it until this day. Wow. You know, and he'll tell me why, you know? And after listening to him, you really got a good feeling about him. You don't think he's lying. You know, you really do end up believing him. And I did. I totally believed in him. However, after you find the stuff that I found, it's kind of hard to not put O.J. at the scene. So what I did, Jonny, was I stopped worrying about O.J. I just wanted to find out, was there a second person at the scene? And that's what this whole thing ended up becoming for me. Rather than argue about whether or not O.J. was innocent or guilty, which at this point, is a ridiculous thing to do, OK? He's dead. You know, there was a conviction in a civil court case about this where he was found liable. And then, of course, in the criminal case, he was acquitted. And we can argue about all that for forever. I don't think we get anywhere with that. I think if you want to put your mind to rest, he was involved. But I think he deserved that not guilty verdict with the way that they botched the blood evidence, all of the way that they lied, the way they put Mark Furman up there. You know, it's like it's not what you can-- it's what you can prove. And we have a system for a reason. And you have to follow the rules as a prosecutor. And if you fuck that up, the guy gets to go free. Yeah, that's how it goes. You deserve it. And that's, I think, the backbone of our society, really. Absolutely. Yeah, everybody should be presumed innocent. It doesn't matter if you're a celebrity, or you're a black man, or you're a black woman, or you're a black man, or you're a black woman, or you're a black man, or you're a black woman. It doesn't matter if you're black, white, whatever. Everyone should be cloaked with the same presumption of innocence. That doesn't happen in our society anymore. And it started in this trial, in my opinion. And I don't think, as a society, we've ever been the same since this trial. Not only is everything just over the top sensationalized, but the media partakes in whether or not someone is guilty. It used to be the news would present the facts, and then you, as the viewer, as the audience member, you'd be able to ascertain these facts and determine for yourself an opinion. Now the opinions are being force fed directly into your home, and in a thousand different ways as technology advances. I think people, too, they don't want to accept the fact that this narrative that they've been fed is wrong. So they have this bias. They believe something for so long, they're like, well, it can't be that it's not what I believed. Right. And it makes people very upset that people can just get away with murder. Sure. And I totally get that. And it's not-- but look, they had their opportunity to prove their case. And they had the opportunity to adjust the way that they presented their case. They didn't take these opportunities. And as you watch the trial in the Simpson matter-- Yeah. --you start seeing it weigh on them as it goes along. And I just think they were itching to get the hell out of there. I know for a fact that they had some of the information that we've uncovered. And they chose not to use it. And I can't imagine a situation where I was a prosecutor on a case, and I was presented with the stuff that they were presented with, and not use it. Yeah. Unbelievable. Mm-hmm. So you're here today, obviously, to promote your book and the documentary that's coming out. Not on YouTube, on Peacock. Right. So you're official now. Yeah. Thank you. You're here. Tell us your contention. And then we're going to walk backwards, and you're going to talk about all the evidence to back it up. It looks to me that OJ Simpson had an accomplice in the murders of Ronald Lyle Goldstein. That's right. It looks to me that that accomplice was Joe Ippolito Jr. And who is Joe Ippolito? The man, the myth, and the legend. That's who he is. When we got to learn about Joe Ipp, we were blown away by everything that he was involved in. He was a restaurateur. He was adjacent to Hollywood celebrities. Yeah. And he was a thief, and, you know, he was everything. He was a father, a brother, you know, he was a businessman, you know, he was corrupt. He was an FBI informant, a DEA informant, and we can go on and on. When you say accomplice, you mean he was there at the scene of the murders? I believe he was. I believe he was. And, you know, you don't have to take my word for it, that's the beauty of what we did is we actually uncovered people who place him there without even knowing who he is, you know? And that, I think, is probably, you know, one of the more eye-opening facts is you've got this stuff with the New York Times that's come out where, you know, in his cooperation agreement, it details some of the information that he came forward with, it doesn't go into great detail. "I'll do it for you today," but you know, You basically, you don't have much of the story there, okay? And what's missing are the witnesses. So there are witnesses who did not get to testify in this trial, either trial, who did come forward with descriptions of a man who fit the description of Joey Ippolito at the time. And what was that description? Well, at the time, Joey Ippolito was using a disguise, okay? A full-fledged new identity. He had just escaped prison five weeks before this happened, and he became Clark. And Clark had a toupee, and he had little round eyeglasses. And, you know, essentially these witnesses place this particular hairstyle at the scene of the crime. Almost an hour. An hour and a half before the murders happened. And then 30 minutes before the murders happened. Two different witnesses, and these two witnesses don't know each other, don't know who Joey Ippolito is, but they had very similar descriptions. Okay, so you've got the night of the murder, June what? 12th, 1994. You're at Bundy Drive in Brentwood, Los Angeles, at the condo of the townhouse of Nicole Brown Simpson. Correct. These witnesses say that they saw this man. They were neighbors? Who were these witnesses? Tommy Tallarino is one of them. And Tommy Tallarino, he's still around. Great guy. He didn't have to come forward for this, you know, for whatever reason, you know, I don't know why. I guess I can get people to do shit. And, you know, I had a long conversation with Tommy over the course of a year. And then I finally convinced him to come forward and do this. At roughly 9 p.m. on the night of June 12th, Tommy Tallarino and his friend, Leo Scarantino, both of them were rollerblading, you know, for the kids out there. As you did in the 90s. Yeah, in the 90s, you rollerbladed. You didn't roller skate, you rollerbladed. Right, straight men. That's right. Would rollerblade together, which is shocking. It's weird. You don't see it much anymore, half at all. It's so fun. It's like skipping or bouncing on a trampoline. You never want anyone to see you doing it, but it's so fun. It's a lot of fun. That's true. That's true. It's so, so gay. Nine o'clock. They ride by the condo, okay? And Leo Scarantino has gone way ahead of Tommy. You know, I can't tell you exactly how many feet, but way ahead of him. And so Tommy's trying to catch up, so he's skating, and he goes right by Nicole's condo. But as he rides by her condo, he looks to his right, and he sees what he believes. And he sees what he believes is his friend who has fallen over in the bushes, okay? He looks at him and then realizes when he makes eye contact with this individual that it's not his friend. And then he catches up to his friend, and he keeps going. And when he gets to the corner and meets up with Leo, he's like, man, I swear I thought you had fell down in the bushes. But, of course, it doesn't make any sense anymore because there he is, right? This doesn't even make a dent in this guy's. You know, anything that he's doing from that point on doesn't think about it again until the next morning when the news breaks that there was a murder. Now, it turns out this individual works as a PA, a personal assistant, for Danny DeVito, okay? And so he sees the news. He hears about everything. You know, he calls Leo, and he's like, are you seeing all this shit? Like, I swear that might have something to do with what happened last night. You remember it? The guy in the fucking. The guy in the fucking bushes? Like, I don't know what to do. And they got scared. And so they did not want to come forward. And it wasn't until Danny DeVito had a conversation with Tommy. I was like, listen, man, this shit is everywhere. The media is coming after you now because I guess Leo told some of their friends, and then, you know, that shit got out, and the tabloids were chasing these guys. And so finally he came forward, and he talked to the detectives who worked on the case. And he told them everything. And they never fucking called him again, okay? Now, that's the first guy. His description was a man that was maybe 5'10", 5'11", 175 pounds, 180 pounds, something like that. A white man. White man or Italian. He actually calls him an Italian man, hiding in the bushes with slicked-back hair that went all the way back. He kind of. I think he likened him to a young Andy Garcia. I think kind of like Godfather 2 or 3, I should say. The bad one. And, you know, that description jives with the exact toupee that Joey Ippolito was wearing at the time. And how we know this is incredible. It's fucking incredible. We bring Tommy Tallarino in, and we're like, we're going to get you a fucking sketch artist. And he's like, man, I don't know. He's like, man, I saw the guy for three or four seconds. I don't know, 30 years after the fact, how good, you know, that's going to do me. And I'm like, well, let's try it. Let me get him the best sketch artist we can find. Guy's been doing it for, you know, 40, 50 years or something. And they draw it up, and sure as shit, you know, he draws up exactly the appearance, you know, of Joey Ippolito. And the toupee is special here. This is important. His girlfriend at the time. We take the sketches. We throw them in with other sketches that aren't Joey Ippolito, that aren't what the witness saw. We hand them all to the girlfriend. The girlfriend siphons through them and picks out the exact one that Tommy Tallarino had drawn up. Tommy's girlfriend or Joey's girlfriend? Joey's girlfriend. Okay. Yeah. So that's how— We get to know her extremely well. And she's alive still? Yeah. She's a great gal. Was she in Los Angeles with Joey while he was on the run? Yes. Yes, he was infatuated with her. You know, part of this New York Times report that's come out states in the report that in Al Cowling's Bronco, after the chase, after the Bronco chase, they found a picture of one of Joey's girlfriends in the glove box. And on the back of the picture was Joey Ippolito's information, his phone number, his prison information, too. So that tells us that they were communicating back and forth. Al Cowling's and Joey Ippolito were communicating while Joey was in prison. And it had to be somewhat recent. You know, why is all this stuff inside of AC's Bronco? Right. And the cops found that. Cops found it. Right. Did you ever hear about that until right now? No. Exactly. Did his statement—it was a written statement when he went and talked to the cops? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He actually testified in the civil trial. Okay? So he was ignored. Right. During a criminal trial. Again, anybody who put someone else at this murder scene for the criminal trial was discarded. By both sides. Okay? By the defense side, because they didn't have to prove anything. They only had to prove, and they didn't even really have to prove this, that OJ wasn't the guy. That's their whole responsibility. They weren't going to spend any time on other suspects, although they posited certain things that now, in context, make a whole lot of sense. And they got a lot of shit for it. The Colombian drug lord's theory, this is something that they posited during the trial, at the beginning of the trial. The Colombian drug lords are responsible and mistakenly, you know, figured—or pointed at Nicole, I should say, when they were looking for Faye Resnick. Well, who do you think Joey Ippolito was getting his drugs from? Colombian drug lords. And we know this is true. And so when you start to look at this— I wonder what kind of conversations the defense was having, you know. But as far as the prosecution was concerned, anything that had anything to do with anybody else, they were going to ignore. They were not going to put anybody on that stand to say, I saw someone else there. And they had their opportunity. There were at least two to three different witnesses, two of them that are incredible people, upstanding citizens, and very credible people. Who were those other witnesses? Well, one of them is Tom Lang. Not to be confused with the detective Tom Lang. Nicole had a neighbor named Tom Lang. At 10.03 at night, he's taking his dog out for a walk. He lives maybe one block over from Nicole, just down Bundy a little bit. And the dog is extremely well-trained, so he's walking it without a leash. As they approach the corner of Dorothy and Bundy, he looks ahead and he sees a white Ford. He only describes it as a white Ford. A white Ford. I think he calls it— Maybe like a full-sized vehicle. So could that be a Bronco? Probably. But from his point of view, and we know because we went, so we stood exactly where Tom Lang stood. We looked ahead, and you wouldn't be able to see the back of a vehicle from his perspective. He sees Nicole in the black dress that she was found killed in at 10.03, leaning in to this white Ford, yelling at whoever's in the vehicle. Yelling, screaming. He says, It sounded like she was either singing or having sex. But she was screaming. And she was not. whatever was going on was bad. And as I turned left on Dorothy Street to continue my dog's walk, I whistled for the dog so that he wouldn't go over there and bother them. And I look over and I see a man that's about 5'10", 5'11", 175 pounds, that's white, Italian, or Mexican, approaching Nicole and whoever's in that white Ford in an angry or frightened stance. Now, that's an hour after Tommy Tallarino has seen what I deem to be the same individual hiding in her bushes, okay? What are the chances these are two separate people, two different people from one another? I mean, I guess so, but to me, it just seems unlikely that these two, you know, same height, same weight, same physical description, and within an hour and a half of the killing time. What time did the killing take place? We posited that it couldn't be until about 1035. That's when we think this happened. There's a theory out there that Ron Goldman came to the scene twice. And that theory derives from an author named B.T. Wiedemeyer, who wrote a book about this. But we quickly realized that nothing matches here. You know, when Ron Goldman leaves, I should tell you that the witnesses also describe dark clothing on the individual, okay? Hmm. When Ron Goldman left work that night, he was wearing a white button-down dress shirt. That's never going to be confused with all dark clothing. Right. Right. So that immediately discarded that for me. And the timing was suspect. You know, I think Ron Goldman leaves the restaurant at 950, 955. Tom Lang sees his account at 1003. I guess it's possible that Tom Lang could have seen Ron Goldman, but what about Tommy Tallarino? At that time, Goldman is still waiting tables at the Mezzaluna. So who the hell is that? That guy. So it made more sense to us that that's not Ron Goldman. If you love untangling mysteries and uncovering the truth behind what really happened, I think you'll love The Good Daughter. From page to screen, don't miss The Good Daughter, now streaming only on Peacock. You know. Okay. So, and did this second witness, Tom Lang, give a statement to cops? Absolutely. And they wrote his statement down wrong. And that was something that came up in our conversations and with Pat McKenna, the defense investigator. They got his whole thing wrong. And what we were able to do, Tom Lang is a guy who's never given an interview, ever. He wanted to come forward to testify in this trial. He was going to testify for the defense. Again, his information was helpful to the defense, except for that whole white Ford thing. And there was no way that they were going to use him because they don't want a white Ford anywhere near Bundy at that time. It's really bad for OJ. Right. And the prosecution, of course, they don't, they don't want to use this at all. In fact, I'm of the opinion that they fudged his account to discredit him so that there wouldn't be a reason to call him. Now, what we did was we unearthed a 45 minute long audio tape of Tom Lang, the witness. And to my knowledge, it's the only one of its kind. And we got it. And we got it for this movie. And of course, for, for the book, so that we can, you know, really nail down what he said. And this was taken, I think, 30 years after the fact. Did they find any other physical evidence, DNA evidence that was not OJ's in the Bronco? In the Bronco? Yes. There was a four allele on the stair, on the steering column, which is a different marker than his, Ron's or Nicole's. Also, they found skin cells underneath Nicole Brown's fingernails that came up as a B. That's different from everybody else's blood at the crime scene. And there were, of course, blood drops that weren't tested. On her back. And, you know, and, and to give, you know, to give them a little credit, they don't test everything. You know, when you're a criminalist, don't test every single piece of blood or samples that they come across. They, they normally do a representative set of amounts. You know, if you see three or four blood drops and you pick up two of them, you know, more than likely the other two are going to be the same. So you skip on to the next. There was just so much evidence to collect in this case that that's what they did. But, you know, they're, they missed some stuff, you know, and they missed stuff that, in my opinion, really could have continued to point in another direction. And, you know, they don't have the results of this stuff while they're conducting their investigation on the scene as detectives in a murder case. This comes later. But just their whole, all of everything that they did that night was sloppy. You know, the next morning, the media arrives at Bundy. Tom Lang, the detective, goes inside and grabs a bed sheet from her. This is, these bedsheets, OJ Simpson had sex with Nicole in that condo, you know? Why would you do that? And I mean, I know why they did it, because they didn't want gawkers and the public, you know, fixating on these bodies that already had rigor mortis set in. In an act of decency, Tom Lang fucks himself, you know, and this investigation, you know? So part of me is, you know, I just, I like Tom Lang, the detective. I met him. You know, we talked on the phone, I should say. And obviously he's participating in the documentary. He is not of the opinion that there was an accomplice. But even he, at one point, said, you know what, maybe. You know, maybe he was there, but what fucking difference does that make? You know? To me, I'm sitting there, I'm like, it makes all the difference in the world to me. I'm like, I'm wondering, did you have this information before? And it turns out he did. So, yeah, because the blood, whether they had sex in the sheets or not, there's not going to be a different person's blood that's not OJ's or Ron Brown's or Nicole's on Nicole's back. Right. 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As we got started in this investigation, I thought he was Chris Todd using a burner account. Fucking with me. And as it turns out, that wasn't the case. He was a real guy. He was a filmmaker, great researcher, loved the OJ stuff, loved mafia stuff. And we got along great. So I end up meeting Chris, or excuse me, Charlie Ehrlich. And, you know, when Charlie Ehrlich's case with the Miami New Times settled for defamation and running this article about him, which is a matter of public record, if you guys want to go check that out. Charlie invites me down to the club, and I call Mike, and I'm like, dude, we got to go. He's like, we're the first ones. We have to go. And so we went down there, and as we're talking to Charlie, I'm like, you know, he's like, this is bullshit. I didn't do this. He's like, I'm sick of this shit. He's like, there's a hundred videos about me on the internet. You know, I haven't talked to any of those people. You know, Chris Todd talks like he knows me, and like we've met and hung out, and I've never met the guy in my life. Explain to people who Charlie Ehrlich is. Charlie Ehrlich is a guy, you know, who's always been mob-adjacent. never a fully made guy, you know, hung around with Buddy Delacroce, which is Neil Delacroce's son. For anyone who knows anything about the mafia, Neil Delacroce was the underboss to the Gambino crime family. Okay. Bad motherfucker. All right. Charlie Ehrlich grew up in New York. His father ran a meat business. James Caan worked for them for a while. So he's always been adjacent to greatness and also to nefarious individuals. In 1985, Charlie Ehrlich got busted selling Quaaludes and cocaine and just being a bad guy, okay, at the time. And Nancy Grace put him in prison. The Nancy Grace. Wow. Right. Which is a great part of this story, you know. So Nancy Grace's first case, she gets Charlie Tuna, which is his nickname. And she wins and she sends him to prison for 29 years. He only served seven years of that 29 years. He was a model inmate. And he goes in in 1986. He doesn't get out until September 29th, 1993. Now there's a little story in that that's crazy. I go and I pull his prison release records with the Department of Corrections in Georgia. They give me the document and on the document it says he gets out of prison. September 29th, 1995. Which means he couldn't have possibly done this crime, right? Because the crime happens in June of 1994. He couldn't very well be committing this crime if he was in prison. And so I'm thinking, wow, did nobody pull this shit? Am I the only one who pulled this document? And then we find out the document's wrong. And the Department of Corrections in Georgia gave me a wrong document, a document with a bad date on it. The real date, September 29th, 1993, which gives him an opportunity. So I'm like, back to square one. At that point, we were almost to the point where we were going to eliminate Charlie from our thinking altogether. And then here comes the real document. And I'm like, fuck, is he lying? Is he lying to me? Is he purposely clouding up the water so that we just get the heat off of him and put it on someone else? And he's the one that in. The book that OJ wrote, If I Did It, he references Charlie as being the accomplice. Correct. Being the second stabber. Correct. And there was a conversation that took place about this. When OJ's writing the book with Pablo, he's really close with Charlie at the time. It's my opinion that OJ says Charlie's name probably a lot during this period as he's working with the ghostwriter. So I think subconsciously this ghostwriter hears Charlie so much that he's now logged in the back of his head. And when it comes time to talk about the murder in chapter six, you know, the first words that OJ says to him is like, you know, if I did this, I couldn't have done it alone. And Pablo, the ghostwriter, then says, well, who's this other individual? OJ didn't want to say. And Pablo goes, well, let's call him Charlie. And from there, Charlie, the character, is born. Now, OJ goes back to Charlie Ehrlich, the real guy. And he goes, I got to talk to you. Your name's in the book. You are the hypothetical accomplice to the murders in my book. But don't worry. I don't think it's going to be a big deal. I don't think anybody's going to care. And hell, maybe there's a way for you to make money off of this later. And Charlie's like, why the hell would you do that? And that's his voice. You know, that's how he talks. And I guess they had a laugh about it. And that was it. And then like the next day, they get fucking busted in Las Vegas for the robbery heist. Right. Charlie was with OJ when they went to get his Super Bowl rings back. Yeah. Yeah. And the suit that he was wearing during the trial. And I think some pictures of his mother, stuff like that. So was Charlie connected to Ippolito, Joe Ippolito? So when I get down there to interview Charlie. So when I get down there to interview Charlie at Dean's Gold, okay, for his very first interview, you know, we're like, well, you know, me and Michael are looking at each other and we're like, shit, dude, there's nothing here. There really isn't anything here. There isn't a person that can place Charlie in L.A. in 1994. And that in and of itself is enough. Because if you can't be placed there, then you couldn't have done it. Right. So we're like, fuck. Well, now what? We're like, you know what? Just throw him another question. So how did you even meet OJ? And he goes. Joey Ippolito. And we were like, holy shit. So all this fringe conspiracy stuff that existed long ago about Joey Ippolito by a guy named Alex Constantine, who wrote this book about Joey Ippolito as the trial was going on. All of that shit is real. And then from there, Charlie introduces us to Joey's older brother, Louie. Louie Ippolito. Right. And so we didn't even know that these people even fucking knew each other. And then all of a sudden. Michael and I are like, shit, dude, we now have a movie. We now have a movie because Louie agreed to go on camera. So we show up there the next day at Louie's house. And when we get there, Charlie's there. We didn't know that. You know, we talked to Lou and we're like, well, we'll be over there tomorrow at 10 o'clock. And, you know, we're going to bring in our camera equipment. We're going to get started and we'll keep it real quiet. No one's going to know. And Lou's like, OK, baby, come on down. Right out of Central Casting, Louie Ippolito. Great guy. Dangerous guy. Even at 86 years old, you look at this man and you're like, I do not want to piss this guy off. So we get there and Charlie's already there. They're smoking fucking stogies outside. Me and Michael are like, I wonder how much they've talked about this. Are they concocting a story? And so we get to sit down in front of Lou. And when we start asking Lou questions, he'll say, I know why you're here, baby. You're here to talk about that murder business in L.A. I'm like, yeah. He goes, well. Joey told me everything. And I said. What? He said, yeah. When Joey had brain cancer in 2006, before he died, his last wish was for me to take him to Italy. Now, I had a very storied relationship with my brother. This is what he tells me. And I wasn't on the best of terms with him, but he's my brother. So I said, fuck it, I'll take you to Italy. While they were in Italy together, Joey confessed to his participation in a couple of different murders. And being involved with OJ Simpson and Al Cowlings on the day of the murders. And according to Lou, who got his information from Joe, we think, could very well be that Louie twisted this. In fact, as we went along, we started to realize that's more likely than not the case that he kind of twisted this a little bit. He told us that Joey said that Al Cowlings. Al Cowlings and OJ Simpson went to the murder scene that night to confront Nicole. OJ killed Nicole and Al Cowlings beat the shit out of Ron Goldman and then killed him. And we were fucking floored. You know, we're sitting here and Louie's got some credibility to him. And Al Cowlings is OJ's childhood friend. Best friend. He's the guy who's driving the white Ford Bronco in the chase. Calling people. Going crazy. As soon as this all happened. Al Cowlings was on the phone with everybody that he knows and he's like, oh, they're framing them. They're framing OJ. You know, he's looking for Joey. They can't find Joey. And, you know, we talked to some of these people who received these calls from Al Cowlings. And it just sounded like a man who was desperately trying to fit together a scenario that worked. But I don't think any of it did, frankly. Okay, so I'm still trying to. Make the connection between Charlie Ehrlich, Joey Ippolito, and OJ. Was Charlie working with Ippolito selling Coke? No. No. That's all bullshit. That's all bullshit. Charlie was running a club. He was running Dean's Gold Nightclub. You know, it was a topless joint. In Miami? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Sunny Isles Beach. He doesn't work there anymore, so don't go looking for him. But. Essentially, he would bring in high-profile people into the club. Well, one of the people that used to come into the club all the time was Joey Ippolito. And the two of them did meet. So Joey and Charlie had met in the 70s. Okay, and it was brief. They weren't friendly like that. They were acquaintances at best. Okay. And both of these guys were in prison at different times while the other one was also in prison. So they didn't really leave much room, much meat on the bone there for them to actually hang out together. This is all stuff that's invented after the fact to push this Charlie Ehrlich is the guy narrative. Because he needs to have a reason to be out there. And it's well known that Joey Ippolito was a drug dealer and the drug debt angle is something that existed in this case, you know, long before Charlie Ehrlich was ever even considered to be by some people anyway as the accomplice. But no, what happens is, is Joey takes different people to the strip club and, you know. He gets to start treatment. Joey does. One of the people that he brings in there is O.J. Simpson. And so it doesn't take very long for Joey to introduce OJ to Charlie, and he introduces him like, hey, you know, Charlie, this is my friend Charlie. He's one of the good guys. He never ratted on anybody. He did his time. You can trust him. And then for whatever reason, those two end up being peas in a pod. Best friends. Even closer than OJ was with Joey? Yes. Although if what we've thrown out there is true, which we believe it is, I don't think you can get much closer to somebody than, you know, committing such a horrible, grisly act, you know. So I think that they were kind of tied to the hip for forever until, obviously, Joey died. But I don't know necessarily it's a guy you want to hang out with all the time, you know what I'm saying. But they did hang out even after all this. And, you know, Charlie was there, too. But— But Charlie and OJ started to hang out more. And Joey got really sick. And so Joey wasn't hanging out with anybody. He was trying to survive this horrible terminal brain cancer that he got, which ultimately he succumbed to. Okay, so let's eliminate Charlie, then, as the accomplice. Let's focus in on Ippolito. So Ippolito was also not a maid guy. He was an associate of the DeCavalcanti crime family. Correct. Out of New Jersey. He's in Miami selling Coke, you know. He's like a knock-around guy. And he meets OJ how? Joey meets OJ through—well, you know, here's how I was told this story went down. Joey gets released out of prison sometime in 1987, early 1988, and he moves to L.A. He hooks up in L.A. with a man named Ronnie Lorenzo, who I got to meet. It was really funny. He's a really nice guy. Ronnie Lorenzo is a maid guy in the Bonanno crime family. But he was one of the first to move out west when all of the godfathers started catching cases. So I think sometime in 82, 83, Ronnie Lorenzo moves out west. When Joey gets there, he's got a playmate. Ronnie's got a restaurant. At this restaurant, he holds like a Monday night football type of event every week where professional football players would come in. So Joey's there. Ronnie Lorenzo is there. And OJ Simpson comes in with Marcus Allen and Al Cowlings. And that's how they meet Joey at Boleto. I see. Which is a really cool story all on its own. It's wild. And Ronnie Lorenzo gets, you know, the star treatment, too. They start going to, like, big-time football games together and going off into the clubs or, you know, the box seats. And, you know, basically, Joey's just addicted to it. He's like, wow, this is crazy. You know, Joey grew up on the East Coast, and now he's out west. And he's just avoiding all the heat that's going on in Miami. Because if you think about it, in Miami at the time, in the late 80s, they're going after everybody. That is the drug epicenter of the world. And what does Joey do? He sells drugs. So does he want to be in the way of that? Hell no. So instead of going to Miami where it's hot, he goes out west. And he plants his feet with the guy, Ronnie Lorenzo. Okay. And that's how they meet OJ. I see. And the drug angle is important because the next question is motive. What's the motive? One of the more interesting things that we found out in our investigation was meeting Al Cowling's roommate at the time. Okay. I'll just use his first name. His first name's Daryl. One of the stories that Daryl told us shocked us. Daryl had this house where the bottom floor of his house was a gym. And he had workout equipment, life cycle machines, whatever you call it, you know, all of it. Anything that you would find in a gym. Well, Marcus Allen, OJ, and this is a legend, and I'm saying that because Marcus Allen's name is being brought up, and he is, you know, he doesn't want anything to do with any of this. So allegedly, Marcus Allen, Al Cowling's, OJ Simpson, Joey Ippolito, all of them are working out at Daryl's house in the basement. So they become real friendly with Daryl. And he notices that they're all congregating around the same machine, talking and chatting, whatever. One night, Daryl goes down to his gym, and he decides he's going to clean all the machines. So he flips over one of these machines, and underneath the machine was $500,000 in cash. Wow. Now, the next day, or in the days that come that follow this, Joey starts asking Daryl to partner up with him in a restaurant. But Daryl remembers what he saw, and he starts thinking, I don't want nothing to do with this guy. This guy's bad news. I don't know what the hell's going on. But they are exchanging hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in my fucking basement. Like, that can't be good. And he started to realize what kind of a guy Joey Ippolito was. Affable, super charming. You would, you know, he'd get along with anybody. But he was dangerous. And he had a lot of cartel connections. And of course, he was into power boating. So he was one of Don Arano's guys. You know who Don Arano is? Don Arano was in the book and the movie Blue Thunder. He was friendly with George Bush Sr. We believe that it ties into the CIA, but that's another crazy story. However, these guys were smuggling in drugs from Colombia. And, you know, they were getting it in the United States in these cigarette boats. Joey was a professional at driving these boats. And so once the drugs hit the United States, it was up to Joey to move it around. And he was the first person in the country. And so one of those spots was obviously L.A. Another one was Aspen, Colorado, which ties into this story as well. Wow. Yeah, so. Right, so he had developed in L.A. this high-end clientele. Correct. He was a high-end Coke dealer. Yes. Do you think O.J. was introducing him to clients? You know, I think it's kind of a misconception that O.J. was as big a deal as people think he was. I don't think he was that big of a deal. However, probably, you know, I mean, he had a lot of connections with the NFL, right? Some of those athletes, as we know now, love them some fucking cocaine. Mm-hmm. And, you know, they were going to all the same parties. Joey started to become friends with Heidi Fleiss. Who's the famous madame? Yeah, the Hollywood madam. Yep. Also a really great gal, you know, like one of the better friendships that I've attached to. During this whole experience is with Heidi Fleiss, and it's because she started to give some credibility to some things that we had heard about Joey. This is a little-known tale. In September of 1994, Heidi Fleiss was in jail, okay, right as the jury selection is going on for the Simpson trial. U.S. Marshals run into her cell and pull her out of it, and they say to her, if you tell us where Joey Ippolito is, we'll let you walk out the front door. And she didn't fucking know. She's like, I wish I knew, because I'd tell you, because he stole $25,000 from me. So one of the things that Joey was doing was buddying up with these celebrities and then robbing them. You know, and it's just crazy that he would even do such a thing. They were hanging out at her house, and if you can imagine what it was like in the 90s to be hanging out at Heidi Fleiss' house, of all people, you know, you probably wouldn't want to fuck that up. But he didn't give a shit. He robbed her like he did many other celebrities. Allegedly, he robbed Scott Storch, the famous music producer. How so? Burglarize their houses? Yeah, he would burglarize their houses, you know, or send other people to do it for him, you know, depending on the situation. Right. Or I guess another way to look at it is depending on his desperation level. In the 90s, you have this idea that Joey was riding high and, you know, he's making these transactions that are in the half-a-million-dollar range. But I'm also hearing it the same way. I'm hearing it the same time he's sleeping on people's couches, he's driving a dilapidated vehicle, and then he doesn't have a fucking pot to piss in. And I'm like, wow. Like, what a contrast. You know, the guy's—he rides his highs, he rides his lows, and that's just the way that he was. And he could mix it up with anybody. But why is OJ and Marcus Allen and AC, Al Cowlings, why are they privy to his dealings? Why are they—why do they know about a half-a-million-dollar dealings? Why do they know about a half-a-million dollars in this guy's basement? You know, that stuff is—is—is stuff that's going to make me have to speculate. And I'll do it because I don't really give a shit. I'll tell you what I think. I think that definitely Al Cowlings was working for Joe in some capacity, whether it was, you know, a driver or a mule. You know, one of the more interesting things that we found out is this is Joey Ippolito's escaping prison a couple of days before that. Al Cowlings is getting stopped in Oregon. Okay? He's getting a speeding ticket. We're like, what the fuck's he doing in Oregon? Right? Then we realize that the Russian mob in Vancouver is dealing with Joey Ippolito. Okay? And so we're like, what time does this even fucking make sense? I mean, is Al Cowlings going over there and grabbing money? Is he grabbing drugs? Has it got anything to do with any of that? Is it something completely different? We don't know. Maybe he was just speeding on the way home from a friend. But the point is, is that we think Al Cowlings and—and OJ. and Joey, they had some sort of network happening, you know? Can we make that real? Well, we met the FBI. And in our meetings with the FBI, they told us unequivocally that Joe Ippolito was selling large amounts of cocaine directly to O.J. Simpson, Nicole Brown, and Al Cowlix. And that was part of his proffer and part of his cooperation agreement. This is what Joey told the FBI. In order to cooperate, you know, you got to tell them everything. So, when they catch Joey in 1995, he has to come forward with every crime he ever committed. And if he lies about anything or if he omits something and they find out, he goes to the camp. So, he was incredibly forthcoming. As a matter of fact, he rolled on O.J. and Al. In that cooperation agreement, he talks about where the murder weapon was discarded. Who got it? Who put it there? The narcotics angle to this. What happened during the Bronco chase? All of this was in his cooperation agreement. And that includes being an accomplice in the murder? No. So, this is where the buck stops. And this is not in the New York Times article. Okay? It doesn't say that. All right? Now, the public's only seen this letter that was written by David Kelly. We interviewed David Kelly. We had him in the can a year and a half ago or a year ago, maybe a little longer than that. And we've had maybe five, six different conversations with him, two of them on camera. And he told us what the information was and that the information came from Al Cowlings to Joey Ippolito. Now, we believe that they're protecting Joey, too. And so, we don't necessarily believe what they're saying. However, if you want to take them at their word. Basically? That information about what happened in the murder weapon and where it was discarded and what happened during the Bronco chase, all of that, you know, came from Al to Joey and then from Joey to the FBI. I see. Al told Joey. Joey told the FBI. Right. Now, we don't think that's accurate just because of the witnesses that we talked about earlier. Right. And also, if you're Joey, if you're going to roll on someone. And you have the first crack at it, you can get them and get away with it. And obviously, I'll put it another way, sometimes the most obvious is the least obvious. You see what I'm saying? That we think there was going to be no—what were they going to do? Was they going to put O.J. on the stand? Were they going to put Al Cowlings on the stand? Absolutely not. None of that shit ever happened. That information, though, did go to the prosecutors. And the prosecutors have been quoted in the articles here recently. They didn't know anything about this. That is total bullshit. Bill Hodgman, who was Marsha Clark's and Chris Darden's boss during this trial before he got sick, he's the one that got the call from David Kelly at the FBI. And he took that information to Marsha and Chris, and they didn't want to use it. Okay? Right. It's not that they didn't have it. They didn't want to use it. They would have had to go to the judge and say, hey, Mito, we're going to have to reopen our case in chief and present this new information because it's too much to ignore. I mean, could you imagine if they would have had the murder weapon or at least known what happened to it? Was someone willing to testify to what happened to it and where he got the information from? And that the Bronco chase really was about flight rather than OJ having some suicidal thoughts and all this bullshit that you heard. The truth really is OJ was trying to get the fuck out of the country and Joey Ippolito was going to be the guy that they used to do it. Charlie, go! Sam! Now my best-selling novel is finally coming to life and I got to write every episode. Wow. Okay, explain. Explain that. Okay. So the mainstream narrative is that they were just on this kind of random, OJ knew he was cooked, Al Callings picks him up in the white Bronco, and they just start driving to Orange County, where Nicole is from. He was going to visit her grave, and then he was going to put a bullet in his head. Right. What really went on? What was he really trying to do? From what I understand, the plan was that they were going to kill him. They were going to get OJ and Al to, I believe, the Ontario airport, which is close to California, or Los Angeles. No, it's not. It's east. Yes. It would be the John Wayne airport out of, if it was Orange County, it would be the John Wayne airport. Yeah. I'm hearing, the word that I heard was the Ontario airport. Okay. That the plan was to get him to the Ontario airport, put him on a private plane, send him to Turnberry Island. Which is where? Outside of Miami. Okay. And then they would hop on a boat and go to the Bahamas. And Joey was going to- And Joey was the facilitator. He was going to line up the private plane. Right. The boat to the Bahamas. All of that. Which is plausible, knowing his ties in Florida and his boating and his connections. Right. Okay. And that at the last minute, Joey, he ran away after this crime happened. And the next morning, him and Sammy got into a car. And started heading east. Sammy, his brother. Sammy, his younger brother, who we didn't even get to. Which is, we'll get to because he's such a big part of this story. But Joey refused to help. And he said, guys, they're after me, just like they're after you. I can't help. And then ultimately, the Bronco chase ended with Al Cowlings pulling OJ into the driveway at Rockingham. And, you know, they made a whole big fucking thing about it. But I don't believe at any point. You know, OJ was going to shoot himself or even thinking about it. But, you know. Yeah, I don't believe that either. I don't believe that. If you know his personality, he was a fighter. Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't a guy who was just going to put a bullet in his head. Right. Just. And if there was a time to do it, that would have been it. And he certainly didn't. Right. You know. Again, all of that flight stuff, that was the plan. And, you know, you even heard. I don't know if you've heard. But Fat Joe told a rendition of this story on some podcast that he was on. And it just rings true. Because it's the same information that we got from the DEA. And we're not getting this information from Sam or from Louie or Charlie. We're getting it from the fucking feds, man. And at that point, we were like, holy shit, dude. Like, this is crazy. None of this came out during any of the trials. But you're saying the prosecutors had that information. Yes. So now they have information about two witnesses. They have statements from two witnesses that were there. That's right. A 5'10 white man with a toupee on. Yep. And they have this drug crime connection between A.C., O.J., et cetera. Correct. And it seems like they could have twisted somebody's arm and got somebody to testify. Oh, it's not a matter of them not wanting to testify. All of these people were going to testify. The prosecution did not want them to testify. And the defense didn't give a shit. Because they didn't. They didn't have to prove anything. In fact, adding more is only going to be hurtful to their case. You know, as far as the defense, they did a great job. They got them off. See, I would have thought the opposite. If, why would they not want to present, in putting doubt into the minds of the jurors, which is the defense's job, it's not to prove that O.J. is innocent. It's to prove that there's a chance he didn't do it. Reasonable doubt. Why would you not want to introduce a potential other killer? At the scene. Well, because Christopher Darden tried to get him to try on the glove and it didn't fit. Mark Furman lied about saying the N-word. They found 80 TA in the blood drops. They realized that the criminalist showed up at Rockingham, O.J.'s house, before they showed up where the dead fucking bodies were. The jury heard all of that, too. They didn't need anything else. By this point in time, they won. When Mark Furman lied on the stand about saying the N-word, it was over. And then it was over again. I mean, before that, it was over because, you know, he had the stunt with the glove. Nothing could go right for these prosecutors. And the defense was just stacking chips throughout this entire case. It was easy for them, you know? So why—they already could see from the jury, they're seeing the jurors every day. Right. And they're seeing the jurors not off during the prosecution's DNA presentations, you know? They overcomplicated all this. Right. You know, really reliant on this DNA stuff, you know? And then they bring in the two best DNA attorneys in the country to argue for O.J.'s side of it. And very effectively so. They didn't have to worry about this. It was the prosecution who dropped the ball. And they dropped it over and over and over and over again. And they were ready to take that L because they had this information that the world has just now learned about in August of 1995. This is after they arrested. their case, they could have went back to Edo and reopened their case in chief and light a this new information and they didn't do it. Are you allowed to do that after you rest your case as the prosecution before the jurors decide? Can you actually do that? The judge can do whatever. He can reopen their side of the case and have more witnesses come in. This happened a few times during the trial, actually. I think the defense actually got to put on a witness earlier before they even got started with their case in chief. And then they turned it back over to the prosecution to let them finish. And then they picked up later and started their case in chief again. So it's something that the judge could do, you know, and they didn't even try. Has the prosecution or members of the LA prosecutor's office, have they commented on this? We talked to Bill Hodgman. You know, we know that it's true. Marsha Clark has commented that she didn't know who Joey Ippolito was. Chris Darden. Chris Darden knows who Joey Ippolito was because he took a trip down to Turnberry Island. You know, we tried to get Chris Darden involved in both the documentary and the book. And aside from wanting to be paid, you know, he claimed to have the Joey Ippolito file. You know, that's what we were told. And why would you have a Joey Ippolito file if you didn't know anything about Joey Ippolito? Right? Why are you taking trips down to Turnberry? If you don't know who the fuck Joey Ippolito is, why are you doing all that? Yeah. So we know he knows and, and the world should know. And I think the world does know now, you know, with this New York Times article that came out, you know, Bill Hodgman's the guy, he's the guy that got this information and turned it over to prosecutors. And for whatever reason, you know, and I think I've detailed them as best as I could today. They didn't want anything to do with it. Why do you think the prosecution, didn't want to use all of that stuff? They're going to, you know, I'm sure eventually they'll comment and they'll say that this guy had a lot of baggage. He was the drug smuggler. You know, he was a bad witness in that way. However, the letter that was written by David Kelly, his handler, Joey Ippolito's handler to the judge, in the opinion of the judge, was the strongest letter that she's ever read, period. As far as a cooperating witness. And we know that Joey Ippolito's information led to conviction, after conviction, after conviction, in cases that almost had nothing to do with organized crime. He got information about the other suspects in the World Trade Center 1993 bombing. They put him in lockup in solitary with Ramzi Yousef to try to get him to squeal. And he did. The guy was a magician. He could just get people to talk. He'd just get people to talk and then he'd go roll on them and they would almost not even know where it came from. And that continued to happen until he rolled over on the wrong guy and that man's name is Neil Lombardo. And that's where things really took a turn. Joey Ippolito's younger brother, Sam, who's kind of at the crux of this entire story, he almost had his life completely torn to shreds. In fact, almost ended based off of Joey Ippolito being a rat and that information getting out. He started snitching on different heroin operations, tied it to organized crime. They found out about it and they believed that Joey was let out. And so they went to go get Sam so that Sam could take them to Joe. And when they got to Sam, Sam refused. So they pulled out a gun and shot him three times and ran him over with a car. Sam should have died, but he didn't. He survived it. And the guy who shot him ended up doing time in prison for attempted murder. So this is when shit got really, really real, you know, and Joey Ippolito's still cooperating at the time, you know. And so poor Sam, you know, he went off the deep end after that. You know, he was always kind of a little off in that, you know, his family was intertwined in, you know, organized crime. And Joey was 20 years older than him. And when his father, you know, he was 20 years older, his father died, Joey kind of slid into place to be that type of fatherly figure, not a very good one. He always had Sammy doing all of his bidding and driving him from here to there, you know, picking him up outside, you know, a prison camp, you know, to do his escape. And, you know, Sammy was just a good, good soldier in that he would do what his brother asked him to do without asking questions. And he knew better than to ask questions. And then in 1997, this happened and he nearly died. You know, from that point on, I believe there was a little bit of resentment, you know, within the Ippolito clan, as far as Sammy, you know, why wouldn't you? And that's why this story has never been heard, his account, until, you know, in the last couple of years. Today's episode is sponsored by Superpower. I needed to get a blood check recently. So I went through the usual channels. I got a doctor's appointment. I went there, they drew my blood. I waited a couple of weeks. I got the results back. And they basically didn't tell me anything I already didn't know. And there was no follow-up. I still feel the same, which is kind of sh**ty, right? I know most people have the same experiences with the doctor. Oh, I also got another bill, even though I paid a copay and have insurance. This is what a nightmare it is dealing with doctors and insurance companies. That is where Superpower comes in. And that's why I'm obsessed with them. With a Superpower membership, you get a hundred biomarkers tested every year. Way more insight than a standard physical. 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They're clearly pretty close. If he's showing them half a million dollars, if we're going to believe Daryl, the gym owner, who was AC's roommate, what was going on the night of the murders? Why were they there? Okay, so, you know, there's a couple of things that you need to consider here. And that is, I don't know that Joey's the type of guy that's going to be on site for a murder. You know, he was never a murdering type. In fact, every single person that we talked to, the new Joey at Boleto told us that he wasn't a tough guy. They called him a pussy. Really? Okay. And so we were like, well, this is not the type of guy that's going to go commit a murder. But I started thinking about OJ. And I'm like, the Las Vegas thing with Charlie. Did Charlie know that? Did Charlie know there was going to be a robbery? Absolutely not. Right. So OJ's bringing people in. And that little heist had six, seven fucking people involved in it. And from what I'm told, none of them knew that there was going to be a robbery that took place. This was all being orchestrated in OJ's mind. And he gave everyone their little jobs, kind of like fucking reservoir dogs. Mr. Pink and Mr. Pink. And anyway, so Charlie goes up there and all of a sudden he's involved in a fucking robbery. So he has no problem flipping a little later when this all happens. Right. So we're starting to think, is this what happened? So Joey's a little desperate. He's a couple weeks removed from escaping prison camp. Doesn't have any money. He's kind of on hard times. He's running away from the police. He's rocking a disguise. He's in a desperate situation. Quickly, explain that prison escape. Like how he makes it from Florida to L.A. So this is great. So essentially, he's in love with this girl. I'm not going to say her name. So he catches a case after meeting OJ, after coming out to L.A. originally, meeting OJ, befriending him. Yeah. He catches it. He's set up by a guy named Robert Franchi, who turned on the Boston Mafia. Later, he turns on Ronnie Lorenzo and Joey Ippolito. Right. And he has, you know, basically a three and a half, four year long sting operation where he's trying to catch these guys flipping keys. And he finally does. Now, at the time, this raises more questions than answers, Johnny. So I'm trying for you, but it's difficult because of what happens next is fucking insane. Ronnie Lorenzo has no prior convictions at the time. Joey Ippolito's a twice convicted drug smuggler at the time. They both get charged with the same crime. They both have the same attorney, I believe. Interestingly enough, their attorney was also shared by Al Cali. Okay? And they go and they go to the And they go do the trial. They go arrest Joey Ippolito to face these charges. They arrest Ronnie Lorenzo. Joey Ippolito escapes. Okay, so there's a sting operation for some kilos in L.A. 1992. So why is Joey in a Florida prison? We're going to get to that in just a second because it's beautiful. All right. So Joey escapes being caught. When they go try to catch Joey, Al Cowlings is in his living room sitting on the couch. Joey gets out the back and leaves. And he turns up in Texas, and he gets caught in Texas in late 1993. So now he has to answer these charges. He goes on trial. He brings in a fake family, a fake wife and kids, trying to do everything. He brings in James Caan to testify on his behalf. He brings in everybody he can to try to get him to win this case. But he loses this case. Ronnie Lorenzo's got the same charges. Ronnie Lorenzo gets 10 years in a maximum security prison in Colorado. Joey Ippolito gets 10 years at the softest prison camp in the United States. Okay. How the fuck does that happen? This is the question that I had for the DEA and the FBI. And I know how it happens. You flip. But this is 1992, 1993. Apparently, Joey didn't flip until 1995. Raises more questions than answers. How are these two guys treated so differently? One has a squeaky clean record, although he is reputed to be a mafia member. There's nothing there. And Joey Ippolito's not in the mubs, raising all kinds of hell, getting caught left and right with, you know, boatloads of marijuana, serving time twice. And. He gets a slap on the wrist. Okay. And he goes to this prison camp of his choosing. He actually selects the prison camp. They present it to the judge and the judge signs off on it. Now, I think that's indicative of a guy who's already cooperated. And guess what? So does everybody else involved in this man's life. But officially, the story is he doesn't do that until after he escapes that prison camp in Florida six months into his sentence in 1994. Yeah. Yeah, I've spoken with a lot of people that have been in the feds and who have cooperated, who have not cooperated. Usually they send you to those camps because they're filled with guys like Joey that are already cooperating, taking deals because they cooperated. Right. Because if you send them to a USP, you know, their lives are going to be in danger, especially back then. Right. So I accept that. That's completely logical. Yeah. Well, they didn't. They were mad at me for asking. You know, the FBI and the DEA, they, you know, I confronted them with this. I was like, this is bullshit. I was like, you guys know. Like, this doesn't happen. And he's like, well, you know, we don't really know. We can just tell you that our agencies didn't already have an agreement with Joey Ippolito until August of 1995. But that wording is key. Their agencies. That only leaves one that I'm aware of that he could have been cooperating with the entire time. The CIA. The CIA. Correct. And we know that he was friends with Don Aranel, who was best friends with George Bush, who was running the fucking CIA. So that takes us on a whole different route, which I'm not even sure that you're prepared to go down right now. No, there's no need to. But it's possible that he was cooperating as far back as the 80s, the early 80s. He could have been involved in the Iran-Contra scandal somehow. Oh, we've we've. We've tossed that around quite a bit. I mean, and specifically that and more, you know. But, you know, he was a guy who we viewed was kind of like a Nicky Scarf or Gregory Scarpa type of dude, you know, that was able to really just pull miracles off for for these alphabet letter agencies. And I don't know if it was an ongoing thing or if it was just whenever he felt like throwing them a bone. But, you know, these guys who are in his life, his friends. All of them thought that Joey had cooperated in the 80s, not in the 90s. And that's indicative of what happened to him with that sentencing and the fact that the guy was brazen enough to run away from the cops, get caught, then go to prison camp, actually pick the prison camp, go to that prison camp and just fucking leave one day with no repercussions. In fact, he only served when he was finally cut. They made him serve another year, maybe two years, two years in prison in New York. I believe. And then they finally let him out when he never he never went back to prison after that. But this is not a cooperating witness in the standard way that he didn't go into WITSAC. Right. He goes to Miami and he opens up an exotic car dealership and fucking goes to work every day there. Right. Nobody ever came for him. Yeah. So he's an employee. He's a long term. Seems that way. He's a long term, not an employee, but a, you know, because the CIA doesn't have employees. They have subcontractors. Yeah. You know, that's kind of what we were. We were thinking, you know, and it just became more and more evident as we were going along. You know, his wife and his kids, great people. His wife always thought it funny. You know, that he would just he would just show up sometimes when he was supposed to be in jail. He would show up at the house. He'd be like, aren't you supposed to be in jail right now, Joe? What the fuck are you doing here? You know, so it was just it raised more questions than answers. But either way, he's in he's at a low camp. So there's no there's no wall. You can literally just have somebody pick you up and drive away. He's calling everybody. He's fucking letting everybody know he's leaving. So he's talking to Al. He's calling Sam. He's calling Lou. He's calling all of his friends, the girlfriend. The girlfriend's like, what the fuck are you doing? You know, what was his plan? We don't know that he had one. His plan was to just what he ended up doing was calling a limousine service. And, you know, he's in his prison camp. But it apparently has access to this phone all the time, you know, in the mess hall. OK, if this prison camp. He's using his phone to call everybody. I don't even think they're monitoring these calls. OK, he ends up calling a limousine service. The limo driver shows up to the prison. He walks out, jumps in the back of the limo. They pull right out and then they have him taken to a bar. I don't know, 20 something miles away. And from that bar is where Sam picks him up. So Sam picks him up and takes him to North Carolina. OK, now Sam's in New Jersey at the time. So he gets out, you know, he drives what? I think. 20 something hours, 20 hours just to pick up his brother, you know, from some barely known location. And they turn around, they go back up north and they go to North Carolina. And I'm told that he's staying at someone who was involved with the Dixie Mafia, staying at their compound. And basically they're there for two weeks and then they start trekking west. And somewhere in that journey, and I don't know if it's before the escape or, you know, in the drive. Somehow. Somehow or another, a disguise is concocted and an identification, a real one from an individual in New Jersey is taken from him and given to Joey. And he assumes that identity. And that was the. Clark. And I don't want to say his last name because I don't think his family, the person's family here has any idea about any of this shit. And I don't want them to find out. It was a real identity. It was real. The guy was a real guy, you know, and he was a really good friend to Joe for a long time. And I guess. He might have owed him a favor and he gave him his I.D. And so he became him. And then now you have the toupee. You got the toupee, little round eyeglasses and just a completely different personality type almost when he's around other people. But he would occasionally drop hints. Like, I think there was this incident where. Where Joey's in the bathroom with Sylvester Stallone, which was his friend. Joey was friends with Sylvester Stallone and he's in full disguise. Sylvester Stallone doesn't. He doesn't recognize him. And he walks up to him and he like takes his glasses down and he lifts his toupee a little bit. He goes, do you know who I am? And Sly goes, Joey Ippolito. Yeah. And then that's a real thing that happened. Yeah. So. But Joe doesn't give a shit about the cops during this whole entire period. He doesn't care. He gets pulled over by the cops. Gets taken out of the vehicle. They tell him by name to get out of the vehicle. He gets out of the vehicle, has a conversation with these cops, hops back in the vehicle. And leaves like nothing happened. Wow. When did he, what was the date that he made it back to LA in disguise? I think he's there. And I say, I think because the brothers aren't clear. Okay. And neither is the girlfriend, but it's before the murders. And it's, I believe, two weeks before the murders. And this jives because there were reports that phone calls were coming from the former location of Joey's restaurant to OJ's house at Rockingham in the couple of weeks leading up to the murders. Now, OJ's traveling a lot. So, most of the time that he's calling, OJ's not even at home. But earlier that week, the week of the murders, OJ arrives from New York and he's at home. And I believe that they set a time to meet. And when they meet, Al Cowlings brings over Clark. Right. Okay. So, talk, Al Cowlings, AC, clearly, I mean, if he was there the day the cops raided his house to catch Joey for the drug charge. Right. Clearly, he's fired. Fully enmeshed in Joey's illegal dealings. It is. appears that way, my friend, you know, and, and I've gotten corroboration on that from the people that matter, not only their friends, but the DEA, the FBI. I mean, there's a pretty good story about how close Al Cowlings and Joey were. Okay. Not only did Joey get them off crack or freebase cocaine. Okay. Got them off of it, probably introduced it to him and then later got them off of it. But Joey had this infatuation with this woman, gorgeous woman. You know, I met her, she was a beautiful woman, right? They were toxic together. They had broken up and she was just down the road meeting with some guy who, you know, was suing for her. And Al Cowlings shows up at the door and Al Cowlings, and I don't know, nobody knows how, Al Cowlings shows up at the door where these two people are. He walks in the house because who's, who's not going to let Al Cowlings in the door when he's knocking. And he looks over at the gal and he says, Joey's looking for you. You need to call him back. And you, you should probably leave her the fuck alone. So Joey had this guy intimidating other people and doing that kind of shit, you know, and, and also having fun with him. Joey would take him to parties. Like I said, he used to take him to Heidi Fleiss' house all the time to party. And Heidi told me, he's like, yeah, I would go. I would go downstairs and there's fucking Joey and there's Al, you know, so they were peas in a pod. Right. So he was even closer with Al than he was with OJ. Yeah. You can make the argument that Al Cowlings and Joey were closer friends than Al Cowlings and OJ. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And obviously that was the link. That was the link. Between OJ and Joe. Correct. So he probably, AC probably knew that Joey was about to spring from prison and come back out, last. Yeah. I think so. They were obviously talking in the weeks before that, you know, and that's indicative of the fact that there's, you know, a couple of pictures in AC's car that have the information of where Joey is at at the time. And remember, Joey's only in this prison camp for like six months. Right. So he just couldn't take it anymore. He wanted to get the fuck out of there. And all of his brothers, his brothers, his, everyone was like, what are you complaining about, brother? Like you got, you're at an army barracks. You've got it made. You can, you can use the phone. Girls can come see you. What, what the fuck are you complaining? Just seems like easy time, free food. You know, you're not in a fucking four by six cell. You know, you're in a prison camp and you got it kind of easy, dude. You should just do your time. But Joey didn't want to. I don't think, I think it was all a front. If you're to ask me my personal opinion, I think that's all an act. They couldn't just let Joey walk from that drug conviction. They had to send them somewhere. You know? And so why not have them, uh, you know, go to this low security prison camp and, and get out of there unnoticed. And nobody started looking for Joey until the murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman. Okay. So what was going on with Nicole and OJ? A lot of threats, a lot of bullshit. Okay. So they're arguing, they're using threats, financial threats against one another. The official story is, is that they broke up for the last time on Mother's Day in 1980. And they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, then Nicole gets sick and she's bedridden with pneumonia and OJ still going over there and checking on her. But during this period, she's starting to return things to him. So she's starting to give back bracelets. Um, there was a Cartier lighter that he gave her, a couple of diamond bracelets, some rings and things like that. She's starting to give things back to him. He starts sending her letters, you know, regarding the notifying the IRS about her trespasses with her family. And she's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And there's just a lot of that kind of bickering going back and forth. Okay. So let's dive into that, the financial angle. Right. Because this is what I've heard that either OJ or Nicole or both of them were hurting for money. Yeah. And also was she using, she using Coke? Her, her, her toxology comes back negative. Okay. So there was no drugs found in her system at all. However, Resnick was staying with Nicole in this period of time. And she was taken to the Exodus Rehab Center in Los Angeles earlier the week of the murders, which is pretty nuts. And the rumor is, is that Faye gave Nicole her stash. We don't know how big that stash was or, you know, or what, but, you know, we start forming this opinion that Nicole, that OJ wants all of his shit back. And also he's, he's pissed because he knows there's drugs in the house. Okay. And as we learned, Joey Ippolito was a guy who didn't give a shit about ramshacking somebody's house and taking things of value from them. Right. So we start thinking, man, is there, is that the angle? Is it that simple? Really? You know, OJ and Joey are going to go over there to grab his shit back, whatever that might be. That seems to be a running theme in OJ's life. It happened again. Right. He, he might've thought to himself in Vegas, well, I got away with it the first time. You know, looking back on 94. So OJ, they're getting divorced. OJ. They are divorced. They are divorced. OJ just wants his things back. Yeah. I don't, you know, it seems silly. It seems silly until you realize the amounts here. We're talking about bracelets and diamonds and shit like that, that are worth nearly hundreds, hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now she wasn't the type of gal, that was out rocking this kind of jewelry. You know, you're not going to see that in photographs and things of the sort, but that doesn't mean he wasn't giving her stuff. In fact, we know he was. Now, this is just my opinion, but I do believe that at some point he realizes it's really over. It's over. And why should she get to keep all that shit? Maybe he is hurting for money. Maybe he wants some of that shit back so he could sell it or give it to his pretty new girlfriend. Paula Barbieri at the time. And as far as Nicole, I don't think she gives a shit about anything. She's got it made. You know, she's got a certain amount of money that she's getting from the divorce. She owns some property. You know, the condo that she had on Bundy was already bought and paid for. So I think she's just, you know, she's fine. Was OJ jealous about who she was dating? Well, you know, one of the things that Charlie told us is that OJ told him that if he was going to kill anybody, it would have been Mark. Because he had heard that and knew for a fact that Marcus was having a sexual relationship with Nicole. And he turned to Charlie and said, if I was going to kill anybody, I would have killed Marcus because he was banging my old lady. I don't know shit about this Ron Goldman. Then I had Charlie tell me that, and I don't know how he formed his opinion, that OJ caught Ron Goldman at Nicole's house earlier that week. But there's a flaw to that story. Nicole, I mean, OJ wasn't in Los Angeles earlier that week. He didn't arrive until Wednesday or Thursday in the middle of the week. And we can account for his days. So I don't know where Charlie got that, or if that's just something OJ may have told him. You know, I don't believe Charlie held anything back from me. You know, we're really close. I think if there was something there, I would already caught him. Now, the thing about Charlie is he doesn't do himself any favors. He's not good with dates. He doesn't even know when he went to prison or when he got out of prison. Um, he doesn't know when he met OJ. When you ask him if, when'd you meet OJ? Oh, 92. 92. Uh, when were the murders? 94. Oh, then I met him in 95. No, you didn't, Charlie. I met him in 99, 2000, 2002, 2004. I'm like, he doesn't fucking know. You know, he just is very bad with dates. But you know, for a fact that he wasn't in LA at the time of the murders. Charlie? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we don't know it for a fact. We know that there's no one in Los Angeles that can put Charlie Ehrlich there. There's no investigator that has a notebook with Charlie Ehrlich's name in it from the era. None of the, Ronnie Lorenzo doesn't even know who the fuck Charlie is. You know, Sammy referred to him as a pill guy, you know, in Miami. Never a word about him in Los Angeles at the time. Now, is there a chance? Well, there is a chance. There is a chance. And it's a very unique story all on its own in that it involves a man named Roger King. Roger King is the guy who got OJ Robert Shapiro. And Roger King knew the Ippolitos well. And Roger King got Charlie Ehrlich out of Las Vegas after the robberies took place. And nobody knew that either. He had a private plane do it. So is there a chance? Yeah, there's a chance. There's a chance. There's a chance. There's a chance. An alibi that Charlie has, which I don't even know if he knew about until we discovered it, which was one of his friends that he was working for, places Charlie at work at eight o'clock in the morning on June 13th. In Miami. In Miami. So that makes that sequence of events like incredibly difficult to pull off. Is it possible? Yeah, it's possible. Is it probable? Absolutely not. And I can tell you just in knowing Charlie Ehrlich the way that I know him, I don't think he's got it in him. He's a sweet guy, nice enough guy. And I don't look at him and say to myself, that's the fucking guy right there. But you also also said that Ippolito is not a murderer either. Right. I think he was pulled into that. I don't even believe that Joey participated in the murders. I believe, in my theory, we go into it in our book, which is called Orenthal's Accomplice, by the way. And we basically redo chapter six in If I Did It, which is the night in question. There is, in our mind, a situation where OJ's pulling Joey to go to Bundy that night for something that's got nothing to do with murder, whether it's to confront her, whether it's to have Joey run in the house, grab some things of value and pull out of there, which is, by the way, what we think happened. But Kato Kaelin fucked it up for OJ and therefore made him late. See, there's that story, which, you know, Kato's told a thousand times, which is OJ came to his door at nine o'clock. And said, hey, can you break 100? I'm going to go get a burger. I need some change to tip the skycaps at the airport. And Kato's like, oh, fuck. Dude, I'm starving. Can I come with you? And OJ hesitated. He's like, yeah, yeah. And it was an awkward ride. They didn't talk to each other. It was almost like OJ wasn't really going to McDonald's, but was planting that seed in Kato's head just in case. Right. Planting an alibi. Planting an alibi. And I don't even know if he would necessarily do that if murder was on the table. But maybe something like driving your buddy over to somebody's house so they can run in and rob her. Maybe that's possible. Okay. So we think that Joe was dropped off at Bundy early, 8.50, 8.55. He immediately gets seen by the rollerblader dude. Then Joe, I mean, then OJ is supposed to arrive at like 9.30. And then he's like, oh, I'm going to go get a burger. And OJ's like, oh, 9.15. But now he can't arrive at 9.15 because Kato has invited himself to go to McDonald's. So what the fuck is Joey going to do? He's there by himself. He's supposed to be waiting on OJ to get there. All kinds of crazy shit's happening. And Nicole, she's on the phone with Faye. The daughter has a friend over. The last second, the friend's dad comes and picks her up. So there's a lot of commotion happening at Bundy that probably prevents Joe from doing what he was supposed to do. Now my bestselling novel is finally coming to life. And I got to write every episode. OJ was never supposed to be at the robbery, at the burglary. Right. I don't think so. I think he was going to go pick up Joe. After he broke in. After it was done. I see. And that didn't happen. And when he gets there at 10 o'clock at night, when he's finally able to get there after the McDonald's trip, he's seen by Tom Lang, the witness. And Joey is also seen. Okay. And these events are what I believe formed the murder. I think Nicole comes out there with, with a knife. And, and, and is, and sees Joey. Okay. Or Clark. And sees OJ in the Bronco. And so she starts raising hell with them. And I think she's waving a knife out. Why do you think that? They found the knife on her kitchen counter. Okay. Just out. A fucking chef's knife. All right. Not a knife that you would use for, you know, killing people or whatever. I think that she hears Joe out in the bushes when she hears him. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. She's going to go open the gate for Ron Goldman. And she runs inside and grabs the knife, comes out there. And when she comes out there with the knife, that's when OJ's there with the Bronco at 10 o'clock. And I believe she has words with them. Okay. I believe she slaps Joey in that instance. And then, you know, I think OJ loses it. You know, she's out there with a knife threatening him. And I think that puts him over the top. And I think that sequence of events, is what leads to a violent confrontation between Nicole and OJ. And I think Joey's trying to stop this from happening. And then Ron Goldman shows up. And that's when it becomes the massacre that it became. Before we get into that, why do you think OJ would have Charles, excuse me, have Clark, Joey break into Nicole's house? Doesn't he know Nicole's home? Yeah. I don't think he'd give a shit. Joey does not care. Joey knows Nicole. Also, he's in disguise. He can pull this off. And he's done it before, over and over again. So he's going to go in there and tire up? It was going to be like a home invasion? No, not like that. No, I just think he's going to go in there and grab what he needs to grab and just walk out right in front of her face. And I don't think he gave a shit what she said or did. And I don't think she would have done anything to stop him. You know, she knew that he was, you know, mob affiliated. I don't think she's calling the cops. I don't think she's doing any of that. In fact, when we spoke to the feds and the DEA, they told us if Joey wanted something in her apartment, he'd just go in there and take it. Just like that. Even with her in it, even with her in it. But why, if she's just going to let him walk out the front door, it seems kind of crazy that she would take a knife out and confront him, not even knowing it's him. Well, that's right. Because she thinks she hears somebody in the bushes, right? She comes outside, opens this gate, sees someone. And it freaks her out. She doesn't know who, because she doesn't recognize him right away. He's wearing a disguise. So she runs back inside and grabs this knife. And by the time she's outside with the knife, that's when the Bronco pulls up. And so then he, she runs to the Bronco because she recognizes it. Right. And she starts yelling at the guy in the Bronco who we have to assume is OJ. Right. And that's where the witness with the dog saw her. Sees that happen and sees who we think is Clark, Joey. Walk out and approach them. Okay. And so now that's the last like real, oh, there is one more part of the tale, which lends into our theory. And that is as Tom Lang, the witness is walking down Dorothy street, he happens to see that white Ford turned down the alley behind her condo. So it leaves Bundy, it turns down Dorothy and goes into the alley. Right. Where you would expect if they were going to commit a crime, for that to happen. Right. Right. Cause they, they go up the back. Right. When they're going to enter the house. So he's on the main, he's on Bundy, which is actually kind of a busy street. It is. And then she's screaming at him. Yep. So he pulls around and then goes through the alley at the back. Correct. Okay. Is Charlie in the Bronco? Does he jump in when OJ drives around? Does Clark? Yeah. Yeah. So what we think here is after the murder, there's half. Yeah, we think, yeah, exactly what you just said. So Clark gets caught by Nicole. She's yelling at OJ. He thinks the whole fucking thing's done. He's like, fuck, we're not going to be able to pull this one off. Sorry, OJ. And he gets in, as he's going into the car, we think Nicole slaps him then. And from that point on, Joey's trying to talk OJ out of any further action here. But I think OJ is incensed and he's pissed off that the mother of his children, someone that he cared so much about is out there fucking waving around. A knife in her hand. Oh, it's a lot, man. That's a lot. It's hard for me to believe, to be honest with you. But look, what we know about CTE, what we know about, you know, the jury heard all of the psychotic, threatening calls that he gave Nicole in the months leading up to it, the jealous rages that he was in, the fury that he had in him. Plus, years later in Vegas, something as stupid as like, you know, confronting a guy when you know you're on camera, just dumb shit. Right. Mixed with kind of being a psychopath. I guess we have to accept it. Yeah. Okay. So then what happens? How does this turn into the gruesome stabbings? Well, I think he knocks her out. I think who? OJ. So I believe that what's going on is they're in the back, you know, OJ's putting on his SEAL team outfit. And Joey's like, what? What the fuck are you doing? Like, are you, are we really doing this now? Like she, she caught us. It's, it's over. Like, let's get the fuck out of here. The garage door's open. I believe that the two of them go into the garage ultimately, because Joey can't talk them out of it. And they're fishing around, looking in the Ferrari, looking in the Jeep, which is just outside of the garage. We think the dog starts barking then, hearing them snoop around. And that alerts her. And it's now about 10 to 15 minutes after the confrontation outside. And so she comes outside, turns on the light and there they are. And so she freaks out and turns around to run back into the kitchen where she put the knife. And he chases her inside the house. And she realizes she's not going to be able to get there and runs out the front door. And I think that he hits her on the top of the head with his knife. There was a, a wound on the top of her scalp that was indicative of someone striking them, bludgeoning them with the butt of a knife. And I think she's knocked out. Okay, I think Joey might be fishing around. looking for something of value, if anything. I think he might even walk in and see the kids sleeping, and then he really doesn't want to be there anymore. And he comes back downstairs, walks out the front, sees Nicole laying there, and then Ron Goldman shows up. And when Ron Goldman shows up, you know, you have a witness that hears the, hey, hey, hey, hey. I believe that's this situation. Right. And I think Joey and Goldman get into a fight. And I think that Goldman ends up down on the ground and that's when O.J. kind of steps in and takes over and finishes him off. And I believe Joey's pretty well unscathed, you know. There's no real blood on him or on his feet. And I think he just kind of slithers out the front gate and he's acting as a lookout now at this point. And once Goldman is dead, I think Joey instructs O.J. to kill Nicole because they've got no other choice. If Nicole comes too, and sees a dead dude there, she's going to remember who the last two people were at the house. So she has to go. And it's horrible to say, but it's true. And so I think, you know, Joey goes down the road a little bit, maybe even tells O.J. where to pick him up. I think O.J. finishes the job, goes out the back, lets the dog out. The dog fucking runs to its wounded owner. He slithers out the back, gets naked, hops into Bronco, picks up Joe, and then they head back to Rockingham. Why did O.J. have a knife on him? He always had a knife on him. In that Bronco, underneath his seat, he always had a knife there. He also had one in the Bentley, too. Is this a fact? This is a fact. Okay. Always had a knife. For the crazies, he said this in deposition. So he's on the record. I always had a knife on me. You can't carry a gun in California. That's what he said. I mean, yes, you can. If you don't have a felony, you can get a, you know, you can get a permit for it. But we have to take him at his word. Yeah. So that doesn't explain the blood that they didn't test on Nicole's back. If Charlie wasn't involved in the stabbings. Sorry, I keep saying Charlie. Clark, Joey, whatever you want to say. If Joey wasn't involved in the stabbings. No, but that could have been O.J.'s blood. They didn't test it. We don't know whose blood it is. That was just untested blood. Yeah, it was just untested. Could it have been another killer? Yeah. Could it have been, Joey? I could have this wrong, you know. I just don't think that Joey was wielding a knife. Right. Killing people or trying to. I don't think they were there for that. I think it became that. And, you know, I don't know how else to put it. I mean, I don't think that Joey would have been there for a murder. You know? Right. But regardless, the crux of this entire investigation that you've done is that there was an accomplice there. Absolutely. Which I believe. Correct. And which history has tried to paint as just this lone stabber. Yeah, this lone crazy black man. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, they're wrong. I mean, it does seem like, I mean, O.J. obviously is a big, capable former athlete, but it does seem a little improbable that he could, with Ron Goldman especially, could have just handled him and Nicole like that. Without help. I'll tell you one better. Alan Park, the limo driver, sees O.J. walk, well, he doesn't see O.J. He sees a black man, six foot, 220 pounds, walking into the entryway of his house at 1055. Then he calls, and O.J. picks up. 30 seconds later, maybe, something like that. Sounds like 1056, maybe. The next time he sees O.J., it's 11 o'clock on the dot. It means O.J. Simpson walking into his house at Rockingham at 1055. Has four minutes, five minutes max, if you're being generous here, to clean everything off of him, get rid of all of the stuff, not be seen by Cato, who's fishing around, looking around for whatever made the thumps. He doesn't see him. He's got nothing but four to five minutes to leave three drops of blood on the foyer and a pair of socks on his carpet. That, to me, is the hardest part. To deal with. You know, just doesn't, I can't see it working. Right. You know, and so that's the real struggle. That, to me, points more to someone helping O.J. get rid of all of the shit than anything else. So talk about A.C. So. Talk about Al Cowlings and his involvement. Okay, so what we're told, when I found this roommate, it was amazing. How it happened was incredible. I was on a podcast. And, you know, not a very big one. You know, it was a good one, but it wasn't a very big one. And, you know, I'm a guy who looks at the comments section because I was still investigating. And I knew, talking about this shit, that somebody somewhere knows something. There was a guy. In the comments section, this dude, we'll call him Phantom because that was his profile name, drops this little gem. I'll do you one better. Al Cowlings left. He left his home at four o'clock in the morning on the morning after the murders and was ramshacking his apartment, screeching down the road. And then we went and looked. And at four o'clock in the morning, the only people that know about this crime are the neighbor who found the bodies, the cops, and the killers. That's it. So why the fuck is Al Cowlings leaving his house at four o'clock in the morning, allegedly, according to this guy? Which we hadn't talked to yet. So we're like, who is this guy? So I try to reach out to this guy to do the proper channels, and we have no luck. Inevitably, we take his face, which was, basically, we took his screen name and found another social media handle by the same screen name. Again, this time we could see his face. So we dropped his face in facial recognition software, and it turned up a hit. And it turns out to be a lawyer in Los Angeles. So we call the lawyer, and he's like, freak. He's freaking out. How the fuck did you find me? I'm like, dude, that doesn't matter. I just need to know, were you bullshitting, or were you telling the truth? I was like, is this real? And he goes, it's fucking real. And I'm not going to tell you who the roommate is. And I'm like, I'll do, let me just, if I guess, will you tell me? And he said, you'll know you're right if you give me the right name. And so, like, over the course of a couple of weeks, I'm like, fucking, I've got three or four leads, no, no, no, no. Finally, I get the right one. And when I get the right one, he's like, I don't think he's going to talk to you. And I'm like, you let me worry about that. So I end up calling the guy, and we end up being, like, we hit it off immediately. And I'm like, is this true? Is this true? Is this true? He's like, that's true, that's true, and that's true. And I'm like, dude, you have never talked to the media. He's like, never. He's like, I'm really close to Al. You know, he's like, when my father died, Al wrote me a letter. He's like, I don't want anything bad to happen to these guys. And I'm like, well. You know, there weren't two dead people. Do you know anything about Joey Ippolito? And that's when he fucking flipped. That's when he was like, what do you know about Joey Ippolito? And I told him, and he's like, this is the first time I've ever thought about this. And it makes more sense than anything else. And it even explains why Al might have left the house at 4:00 in the morning, because I couldn't figure it out. Who told Al? Because OJ's on a plane. Right. Who called Al and told him about this at 4:00 in the morning that caused him to leave and screech down Sunset? And he was like, I'm going to go to Sunset Boulevard at 4:00 in the morning. And just to confirm, this is the guy who AC's-- he was living in AC's house. That's right. AC was living in his house. He had the gym in the basement. Yes. There you go. Where they used to-- he found all the money. Yeah. Right. Never thought that Joey Ippolito had anything to do with anything until I brought it up to him. And then he goes like, that rings more true than anything else I've ever heard. I knew Joe. I knew this. I knew that. Told me that whole fucking thing. And he was like. I knew it. And I said, great. And we did it. And it's the first time he's ever done it. So he's got-- he hears his roommate in the middle of the night screeching off, going somewhere. Yeah, 4:00 in the morning. And he knows it's 4:00 in the morning because he looks over and sees the time. So he was banging around? Is that why he woke up? Ramp shacking. I don't know what he's looking for. I don't know what he's doing. But maybe he's looking-- I don't know what he's looking for. I don't even want to think about it. He's looking for something enough where he's throwing shit around, and then he jumps in his Bronco and screeches away. Screeches away in a hurry. Where the hell is he going? You know, detectives don't arrive at Rockingham until 5:10 in the morning. So think about that for a moment. If Al Cowlings is going to Rockingham, if he was 45 minutes later in this endeavor, he would have got caught. But he happens to thread the fucking needle. And from what I'm told, he goes and finds where the murder weapon is, and the Bruno Mali's, the gloves-- or not the gloves, those were found at the crime scene-- the bloody clothes and everything else. He takes them and dumps them into the Pacific Ocean. That's what we're told. So I run this past Darrell, and he says-- he didn't know what to think. I take this information, and I go to the FBI, and I tell him, we were told that Al Cowlings, the morning after the murders were discovered-- before the cops get on the road. the scene. We're told that he finds the murder weapon, the Bruno Mali's, the bloody clothes, everything else. And he throws them in the ocean. And David Kelly, who's all over the New York Times article, says to us on camera, I didn't hear about the in the ocean part. And that was his answer to the question. Wow. So who told AC? It has to be Joe. Right. It has to be Joe. Did Joe testify when he was proffering years later? I don't think he would have said that to them. I don't think he would have said that to him. I think in his mind at that point, he was like, well, there goes my friendship with Al and with OJ, but maybe I get to skate. You know, I don't know. I can't, I can't really, I can't really say, but anything that David Kelly has is not public information. Could he be holding back? Yeah. But they told me that, that's not public information. Yeah. Yeah. That's not true. He didn't tell them, you know, about the actual murder, having knowledge about being involved with the actual murder, being the accomplice at the scene. Just stuff that Al Cowlinks told him after the fact. What happens? So they speed off from Bundy after OJ commits these murders. Where does Joe go after that? He goes to the apartment that him and Sam were staying at. Okay. And OJ drops him off? No, no, no. I think Joey's car's at Rockingham. Okay. Parked in the driveway behind the Bentley. The limo driver states that when he got to, got there to pick up OJ to take him to the airport, there were two cars in the driveway. Nobody ever talks about that second car. Okay. It comes up twice. The park testifies. Yeah. There was the Bentley there. I didn't see a Bronco, but I saw the Bentley on Rockingham. And behind it, I saw another small sports car, maybe like a, like a Mercedes or something. I'm like, was it a Saab? Because OJ's daughter drove a Saab. It wasn't a Saab. Okay. It was dark black, he said, almost black car. And so anyway, that's what we believe that, that basically the car was parked there. We picked, I think that Al picked up Joey from Rockingham, dropped him off at Bundy, and then Al left. OJ was supposed to go, pick up Joe from Bundy, but of course he was late. And then when they got back, Joey hops in his own car and leaves. And after he cleans up, you know, he calls and notifies Al of what happened. But we think that, you know, essentially if you believe Sam, Sammy Ippolito, Joey's little brother, that, uh, he goes back to the condo that night. He's disheveled. He's got scratches on his neck. And according to Sam, he's got blood on his hands and he's carrying a fucking garbage bag. And he's like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And the garbage bag is heavy. And, uh, Joe strips down, throws his clothes in there and takes a shower. The next morning they jump in their car and leave. And they go back to New York or New Jersey. And they don't even speak a word, even though this shit is on every radio station. And Sam knows that Joey was hanging out with OJ and Nicole, or not OJ and Nicole, but OJ and Al the day before. Could it have been possible that in that garbage bag was also OJ's clothes? That's the insinuation that everyone is making now. I don't think so. I don't think so. Could it be? Sure. But if that's true, first of all, what a fuck up on the part of LAPD who claimed that they searched high and low for all the evidence. If this is real, Doheny Drive is not even a fucking mile away from Bundy. Maybe a mile or two away from Bundy. They should have checked every fucking dumpster. This was at a construction site, according to Sam. And nobody ever found it. I don't know. It can't have both, though. So if OJ's stuff is in this bag, then what's Al Cowling's going over there and grabbing? So I believe that Joey's stuff ended up in the bag that he gave to Sam, his clothes, maybe even a knife that he had. And that ended up in the bag that Sammy discards. Meanwhile, Joe notifies Al Cowling that OJ's shit is in the bag that he gave to Sammy. So he's like, well, you know what? I'm not going to do that. I'm going to go pick that up. You know where it is. They used this spot. There was a wood pile down this little corridor where the air conditioner was, where the glove was found, that OJ would often use to hide shit for Al. That's what we were told. And so he already knew where it would be. So Joey told him, hey, the hiding spot, that's where the shit is. Get rid of it. And when AC goes over there, he obviously missed the glove. No, I don't think the glove shows up until the next day. How? Mark Furman. See, that's the thing about this case is that a lot of these things can happen. Planting theory, that could still be true. In fact, I think it is true. Right. You know, the accomplice angle, is that true? I think more than likely that's the easiest one for me, in my opinion, to prove now. So OJ never had gloves on. No, I think he did have gloves on. I think both gloves ended up at Bundy. One was where it was probably behind Ron Goldman and Mark Furman found it. Since he was the only detective that was allowed to comb through the evidence, you know, you had all this bullshit about these 14 cops. 14 cops saw, were all at Bundy and they only saw one glove. Well, where the fuck are the 14 cops? Because they didn't testify to this at all, period. All right. And also, cops aren't supposed to dig through the evidence. Detectives are. Mark Furman was the first detective on the scene with his partner. Well, you know, I'm not going to go into the details here. I'm not going to go into the details here. Who you never hear from again, okay, that the prosecution hides him for God knows why. When Mark Furman found a glove the next morning at Rockingham, it was Brad Roberts who went back and got the rest of the detectives to take him to Mark Furman. That's not the story that we heard. We don't know, according to the prosecution, that a Brad Roberts even fucking exists in this case. So to everyone out there who thinks that the law enforcement is going to be entirely forthcoming and give you the truth, you're about to see in this documentary and in the book that that's bullshit. They've been lying since the word go. And they've got a hard pill to swallow this since we've all found this out. So do you think Furman found both the gloves and then took one of them and said, ah, I'll plant this at OJ's house? He remembers. Mark Furman remembers that in 1984, he was called to a domestic dispute in over at Rockingham. Okay. He remembers that. He also lived across the street from a house that was reportedly being rented out by OJ and Robert Kardashian for porn. They were filming pornos in there. I don't know if it's true. I heard it was true. We found out the address to this supposed house and it was directly across the street from Mark Furman's fucking house. So I'm thinking Mark Furman's got plenty of time to grow a hatred for OJ Simpson. Okay. And so it's not just about that 84 incident. You know, I'm thinking that he's, we already know he doesn't like black people. Right. All right. So once we got that in the bag and we've got prior incidents with OJ Simpson, Mark Furman hears about this domestic incident in 1989, five years after he was on the scene at Rockingham, he butts in that investigation. He writes a letter, you know, notifying the rest of the cops or the people working on that particular case. That he had an incident with OJ Simpson. So it's almost like OJ's in the back of this guy's mind. And when he discovers Nicole Brown is the victim, he immediately assumes it was OJ. And so, you know, this is a big time case. He's thinking, finally, I got the big one. He grabs that glove and takes it over to Rockingham. And I think he dumps it there. Is there, can I prove it? No, I can't. I believe that. Yeah. You know anything about LA, LA cops, the corruption, that era? Yeah. And shit, I mean, I think that the ramparts investigation that took place directly after this case was over shed light into this very idea that cops were framing innocent people all the time, or even people who might've been guilty as is in this case. Wow. So you don't think it's possible that when, uh, first of all, who carries all of the OJ's clothes, bloody clothes to the woodpile? I think it's Ippolito. You don't think it's possible that the glove could have fallen out? Yeah, it's possible. It's possible. It's dark. They're panicked. It's fucking pitch black back there. And they got to be panicked. And I think it's Ippolito who makes the thumps that Cato hears on the wall. You know, and this is the best, the best argument for an accomplice is what happens after Cato hears those thumps. And you're never going to hear this anywhere else. Cato hears the thumps. He's on the phone with his girlfriend. He, a couple minutes later, he gets off the phone, maybe like a minute or two later. He walks outside. He walks all the way around the estate. Goes down to where the garage is He walks down that path way, there's a gate there. It's broken. It's off the hinges. It's up against the house. So he walks right through that gate. He approaches another gate. And in the preliminary hearing, Marsha Clark asks him, did he swing it open? And he says, no, I walked right up to it and I turned around. So what does that imply to you? Is the gate open or closed? It's closed, right? The next morning when Mark Furman goes down there, that gate's open. So obviously someone between the last time that Cato was there and when Mark Furman gets there, opened the fucking gate, right? Could it be the guy who made all that racket in that area before? They didn't want to make any more noise. So he didn't slam the gate shut once he turned around. That's what I think. Likely. Yeah. And so is it possible that Joey dropped a glove there? Yeah, it's possible. On accident or, you know, I guess. Depending on who you believe that accomplice to be. In our investigation, it's become clear when you combine the witnesses, the situation after the fact, Sammy Ippolito's account. You add all that shit up. And by the way, all this stuff, Sammy's asking for money. Sam didn't ask us for money. I had his interview in the can a year ago. He didn't want to talk about this. It was eating him up and eating him up. He asked me what the statute of limitations on murder was. Because he felt he participated in this crime unwittingly and unknowingly because he would just do what Joe asked him to do. Was AC questioned about this? Was he questioned by investigators? He asked for immunity. He asked for immunity in order to testify about this. They didn't give it to him. He was asked in deposition, do you know anyone who owns a speedboat? He refused to answer. He asked for immunity to answer that question and to go off into the things that happened on the week of the murders. They should have. I agree with you. Obviously. I agree with you. It's like they didn't want to win. I know. In the civil trial, they ended up going in the plaintiff's favor. But they had all this during the criminal trial. But I don't know, man. Well, they were thinking, I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know how they could not have put any weight. Oh, and you don't even know the crazier part about this whole thing. In the civil trial, Joey Ippolito's name shows up on the defense witness list. So a couple of years before this, he's given the prosecution side everything. And then when it comes time for the civil trial, he shows up on the defense witness list. OJ didn't know that Joey Ippolito was the one who did that. He didn't know that Joe Ippolito was the one who did that. He probably lived to his last dying day not thinking that Joey flipped on him. And now everything's out. And so if OJ was alive, he would now know that his buddy, even after this crime, really almost tried to get him caught. That's unbelievable. So Ippolito goes back to his apartment. His brother's there. He showers, puts all his bloody clothes in the garbage bag. Right. They dump it in a dumpster at a construction site. On Doheny Drive. Beverly Hills. No, it's a little east. Yeah, it's a little east, but still West Hollywood. Yeah. So, and then they take off immediately? The next morning. So the next morning they jump in their car and they drive, you know, all the way back to Jersey. Or I may even think, I think maybe it's the Hamptons. Okay. And then how long is it before he gets caught? Joey? Yeah. Well, he goes back. He goes back to LA. So he just lets the heat die. Okay. This is 94. Right. So by Halloween, he's back in LA. Okay. What's he doing? Trying to shack up with the girl again. And she's not wanting to do anything. And then she ends up getting a job in Miami. So then they start to head that way. And at some point after Miami, he drives up to the Hamptons in New York and stays there this time. Okay. And he's caught in August of 1995. And I think he was being staked out and they turned his pager off and he thought it was broken. And so he's going to, he's going to go back into the city to, you know, figure out what the fuck's going on with his pager. And when he's there, he's approached by marshals. And is he in his disguise? Yes. He's still Clark? He's still Clark. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So, and then tell us about the proffer. So then he gets caught and, and Joe, this is fucking nuts. So David Kelly is, at this point, the Southern district of New York's federal prosecutor. He is Giuliani's replacement. Okay. Essentially. All right. And the funniest story is, is that when Joey Ippolito was caught in the late seventies or early eighties, I can't remember which one, David Kelly's a cop. He's a beat cop back then. And he's guarding the door while Joey and all the cohorts have been caught and arrested. And he's a much younger man at that point. Obviously. So when Joey gets caught this time, he sees David Kelly and he recognizes him. And he says to him, I'm going to cooperate with you. And the reason I'm cooperating with you is because I know you. And David's like, what do you mean? And he's like, you were working the door as a beat cop when I got caught the first time. And, uh, it's like a calling for me to talk to you. Like I'm, I feel like I have to serendipity. Whatever you want to call it. And that's when he makes his deal with the FBI at that point. So he says, I'm going to work with you. I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you whatever you want. I'll tell you everything that I did, who the players are, you know, what crime families in charge of what, you know, what's going on out in Los Angeles, what happened with OJ Simpson and that immediately got his attention. And so when he took that information down, they got him the most lenient sentence that I could think that they would ever give. Somebody who's who did what Joey did, which is time served. I went to that. I think it was like a eight months, nine months or something on a 10 year sentence. And I think they kept them locked up for another year and then they let them go. And that was the end of that. And the information that he gave to the feds about OJ and the murders, did they pass that along to LAPD or what did they do? He immediately called Bill Hodgman, who was the prosecutor on this case and told him everything. And they even got Joe to the point where he was going to come in and testify. And Joe started to have second thoughts. And he said in a remarkable quote that he didn't want to be known as the snitch of the century on the trial of the century. Right. And they still had time. I told you. They still had time. OJ hadn't been found guilty yet. Right. Or not guilty, but yes. Right. Yes. They had time. Their case was just being rested. And. Yeah. Although that's the case, when you have something like this happen, you can go to the judge and argue to reopen your case in chief just for that small purpose, to bring in this witness. Joe Ippolito comes in there and testifies. It's going to force Al Cowlings to testify. Add those two guys together and you're going to force OJ Simpson to testify. And if you don't force OJ to testify, he's going to jail for the rest of his life. And it doesn't matter what morons are sitting in the jury. Right. Or on the jury, I should say. So the information that Joey gave to the feds, isn't he implicating himself in being an associate to a murder? Absolutely. So LAPD could have charged him. Nope, because he's cooperated. This is all part of the deal. So he's only doing this so that he doesn't have to answer for these crimes legally. So that's what happened. That's what Joey did. So federal jurisdiction. They can do that. Yeah, they can make deals with anybody. Hell, they gave Sammy Gravano, killed 19 fucking people. They let him skate in five years. I get that. But they can, if he's wanted or implicated in a state crime, the feds can say, we don't care. He's our snitch and he's proffering. I would imagine. I would imagine that that's the case. Now, I don't know. And this is a pretty remarkable situation that we're talking about. Yeah. You know, so I don't know if there's precedence for that. There might be. I don't know. I think- I think the feds could have a serious conversation with the state cops or whatever, or the prosecution. I think the prosecution would have gave Joey Ippolito immunity and Al Cowlings to get OJ. For sure. And I don't, I mean, look, sounds like Joey has ties with the deepest part of the state and law enforcement that go way back. But he would have to be pretty fucking special for the feds to be like, look, LAPD, this is the murder of the decade, of the century, really. But yeah, we're not going to, we're not going to give him over to LAPD. He's ours. I mean, he would have to like know about the JFK assassination. I don't know. You ever heard of a guy named Meyer Lansky? Of course. Okay. Well, Joey Ippolito had ties to Meyer Lansky. So to answer your question, Joey was special. Joey was that special. He had ties to Pablo Escobar. The Mexican cartels. This guy, for better, I don't know what. I don't know how, but he was there in the mix with all of this shit. Do you know if LAPD and the prosecutor's office tried to get the feds to extradite him so they could bring him up? No, no, no. Here's what I do know, that they were willing to give Joey up to the prosecution to testify. So that in and of itself, they were willing to turn him over to testify in a state case. Okay, there you go. That's what I was trying to get at. To testify, not to be charged with a crime, but to testify against Simpson. Right. In exchange for immunity or something like that. Correct. And the LA prosecutors just said, no, we're good. Correct. Wow. And they're looking at all of us. Marsha Clark, Chris Darden, Bill Hodgman, Tom Lang, the detective, Phil Van Adder, rest in peace. All the rest of them. Everyone involved in this case is looking at us every day. For 30 years and calling the jury stupid. And calling anyone who thinks that Simpson didn't have something to do with this crime stupid. And the idea that someone helped O.J. Simpson as being stupid and calling it supposition. They're fucking lying. And they've been lying. And that not guilty verdict was well deserved. Yeah. That's amazing. Yep. How do you know for the viewers that are still skeptical? How do you know? That the prosecutors, the feds, were willing to give Joe over to LA prosecutors? They told me. On camera. Three times. Okay. So, he detailed the phone calls. It was a very highly guarded situation. Who the fuck am I? I'm just some guy. I don't work for the news. When I found out who he was. And that he was Joe Ippolito's handler, he fucking, he freaked out. This is not known. People barely even know who Joe Ippolito is. Right. So, how the hell did I find out that David Kelly was his handler? So, they called a couple of phone calls. We had to go through this whole thing. Then we end up meeting them in New York City, me and Michael. You know, we show up and we're like shit in our pants. We're like, fuck, we better not piss this guy off. So, he could make things really. Very, very, very difficult for us if he wanted to. Right. And then we met the DEA guy. And they came in and they were just trying to figure out what the hell we were going to do. You know, we're like, man, here's the deal. We're trying to prove that there was an accomplice. We think Joey's that guy. And they immediately were like, no, no, no, no. However, here's all of this shit. We were like, how do you look at all this and think that the guy had nothing to do with this at all? Obviously, he knew. How did he know? Do you think while this is going on, Al Cowlings is calling Joey Ippolito? While the trial's on and everybody's watching these guys and then telling them these intimate details about what happened to the murder weapon and all of this shit? No, I don't think so. I think that this information transpired the night of the murders. That's when Joey found out about it. And I think it's because Joey was fucking there. And he's the one that called Al and told him where the stuff was or, you know, to go get the stuff. And that kind of started the whole thing. Could it be possible that because. Because Joe told the feds all of this during a proffer session, that the L.A. prosecutor's office could have looked at it and said, well, that's technically guarded. Like, we can't use that information because it is a proffer. It shields him from prosecution. They can say whatever they want. But the truth is, is that David Kelly from the FBI, who was in charge of this case, offered Ippolito to the prosecution. And they said no. They turned him down. They didn't want it. They were ready to go home, brother. Wow. They were ready to go home. To me, that's the biggest lynch. That's the biggest nail in the coffin to your whole theory. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't. Listen, man. I did not go into this trying to put Joey Ippolito at the scene of this crime. I went into this trying to put Charlie at the scene of the crime. And I had to be fair. And one. Once I started looking at all the evidence, there was nothing on Charlie. Except, you know, this story about, you know, this book deal or whatever. And I was like, okay, cash grab. Obviously, bro. You know, like, he's trying to get paid because his name's Charlie and he's in the fucking If I Did It book. Yeah. And you can't believe OJ. Right. And I get to talking to Charlie and he starts making it clear to me. He's like, I really need to be looking over here. You know? Wow. And throughout this whole experience, you know, he's doing his best to help me. And then he's also a little. He's like, fuck, you know, it's like, man, no one's going to pay attention to me anymore. Right. I'm like, this is good, Charlie. You don't want to be the accomplice to this murder, man. You don't. Okay. So let's game theory this out. The feds are interrogating Joey, dangling his life in front of him. He's been on the lam. They caught him. They say, you were involved in what? What? They get on the phone with the L.A. prosecutor's office. They extradite him. The prosecutors charge him with murder as being an accomplice. Do you think they would have twisted his arm in an exchange for immunity? Said, yeah, I'll tell everything. And then they get. The dominoes fall. They get A.C. to talk. And then they get O.J. to plead guilty. They give O.J., I don't know, 30 years, 30 to life for second degree murder. Let's flip it on his head, right? So let's talk about what happens if Joey goes and testifies. It's over for O.J. That's the end of the ballgame. What are they going to say? Joey Ippolito's a drug dealer? So fucking what? What has that got to do with anything? That means that O.J.'s hanging out with drug dealers. Yeah. Really? So anything that you can say bad about Joey looks bad upon O.J. Right. Okay? So this whole thing about, oh, we don't want to throw him up there. He didn't have any credibility. Well, first of all, the feds call him the most credible informant. The most credible informant they've ever had. Right. Okay? So call them. Call them. So they come in. All right? Then Al Cowlings comes in and he's like, you know, fuck, I got immunity to testify here. Right. I'm going to tell you what happened. I got a phone call from Joe that night. Because Al wanted immunity. Yeah. And it's probably because this is what happened here. Al's, you know, in my mind, Al's like, fuck, Joey calls me, tells me to go over there. I go over there and I grab something and it turns out to be this shit. You know, I'm like, I don't, I'm not aware. I'm not aware that a murder was going to happen that night. Right. I'm not in on it. I'll just tell him, yeah, Joey told me to go over there and grab this. You bring in the witnesses that were there. Now OJ has to testify. And if he doesn't testify, it's, it's, it's sayonara. Death penalty. Well, that was off the record. That was off the table at the time because Garcetti didn't want, you know, they didn't want to have to kill OJ Simpson. Yeah. So they took that out. But he would have done life in prison. Right. You know? And OJ and Joey would have got off with nothing. You know, immunity. Like you said, that flips this whole, I mean, the timeline that we're in is completely flipped at that point. Right. So it's just crazy, but that's not what happened. No. Instead, we get all these cool little antidotes and we get the Fat Joe story and, and we get this cool NY, New York Times story. Yeah. And a word on the New York Times for your audience. New York Times has been following me and my partner, Michael. And Ari Mark from Ample Entertainment around for a year. I'd show up somewhere. The next day they'd be there. They'd call me. I'd be like, I can't go on the record. I can't say shit. What are you doing? And they were going to do a story on Charlie. And I was like, that's not a story. I mean, you're going to find out real quick. And sure as shit, there was nothing there. Then they saw a podcast I did talking about Joe and they're on me. They're like, hey, do you know this guy? This guy. I mentioned some of these people's names in my interviews. And they went right to him. And these people weren't educated on what to say to the media necessarily. So they all thought that we were working together. So they're going on the record with the New York Times thinking that they're going on the record with something that I'm involved in. Then the New York Times would call me and I'd be like, fuck. I'd get off the phone with the New York Times. I'd call the individual. I'd be like, if they call again, don't fucking say nothing. And then they all buttoned up. So they were, New York Times was trying to get this story before you. No, I was getting this story. I was getting this story for the last two years. New York Times heard about that. Then they tried to get the story from me. And of course, I had everyone contracted up. Right. Right. They didn't realize that people didn't realize that the New York Times wasn't working with me on this and that I wasn't working with them. What I was trying to do was just get that guy to not drop this article. Right. And he was ready to publish in May. You know, and I was like, dude, the movie's just coming right around the corner, man. Like, come on. Give us a break. Don't fucking drop it. Don't drop it. And then he waits all the way until October when our scheduled release date's in December. Wow. So obviously, this has been the case of a lifetime. Totally. Yeah. And I'd have never in a million years thought I'd find anything out of consequence. But it turns out that we may have fucked around and found out that it really was an accomplice and that there's federal records that prove that there was information about an accomplice in their hands. and that the prosecution had this too and they just never presented it to the jury have you talked to the goldmans or any of the brown family okay okay i felt like how do i say this okay so when oj's book came out the goldmans took it and re-released it later right right so i was fucking weary of the goldmans you know i feel horrible for them yeah there's a lot of shit talking about goldman ron goldman being this uh drug dealer and all this other shit the guy was 25 years old you know yeah probably doing the same thing every other 25 year old kid is doing you know he didn't deserve to die he didn't deserve to be killed i feel horrible for the families the brown family i wanted to get them on my side you know i wanted to get at least tanya or denise or one of the sisters to be like wow there really is something to this that way you know when we're promoting the book and promoting the movie you know we actually have someone within the family that's not like this is all bullshit right you know and we did that you know and how were you received by them um at first they were a little off you know they were kind of like well we've heard this shit before you know and then we new york times released the article and they actually got the full picture because throughout all this i'm i can't talk you know for the last year and a half i'm not able to to speak you know about stuff that we're finding out that's all going over to ample and then the doc and in the book and i've got this confidentiality clause bullshit you know this sucks and so like i'm having to be even careful with the people that need to know this like the brown family so when they see the new york times article it's their first real glimpse into our findings you know and immediately tanya brown comes out and she's like l.a.p.d owes us you know uh an explanation it i believe that there might might have been an accomplice they need to look into this and that's this law you'll never if go back and look you know if you guys don't believe me the browns have always believed that it was oj and oj alone period for the first time ever they are entertaining the idea that he had help which i think is the more reasonable thing to suspect yes yep now what about the simpson family oh boy so i actually had a couple of ends with the simpson family you know a couple of cousins of mine one of mine cousins not a couple of them went to the same university that the youngest son justin went to florida state university but i didn't exercise any of it you know i talked to oj one time i got to meet oj's manager memorabilia manager at the time and we ended up you know having great conversations he's the one that told me straight up he's like oj didn't know charlie in the 90s i knew oj in the 90s i didn't know fucking charlie and i was with oj all the time so there's nothing to that chris todd's full of shit that's what he told me and um and by the way chris even came around just fyi so let's put the simpsons aside for a moment but after all this there was nobody that was as adamant about charlie erlich's guilt in this than chris todd and even he at the end you know even he was like so so charlie's so that's all bullshit and it was joey the whole time and i was like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know what's going on but it was joey the whole time and i'm like yeah and he's like well he's a fraud what about what about marcia clark she already came out on the record and stated that she didn't know anything about joey abuelito at the time or she would have used it and that's a lie that's a lie provable lie yeah it's we have we have we have the federal we have the federal email or whatever they did that back then he found them and spoke to them directly yeah it's what he said said to us wow we have that on the record you know so you got to pick a side who do you want to believe right in my opinion it's a little easier to believe david kelly squeaky clean record no bullshit on his record marcia clark lost the biggest case she's ever had and somehow has a fucking book deal after another book deal after another book deal she's a correspondent every once in a while pops up and still making money from losing yeah she's a retard dude yeah prosecutors case prosecutors are extremely corrupt uh and not the most competent lawyers or else they wouldn't be working for the government right so yeah i mean i got no love for the lapd i got no love for the la prosecutor's office the government i'm i grew up in la basically my adult life yeah yeah they're uh what do you think it was just pure speculation why do you think they disregarded these smoking guns i think they know the answer i think they already know the answer we went to them and asked for them to get us a run on the fingerprints there were nine unidentified fingerprints at the scene okay and we knew that joey's fingerprints would be in the database of course and so we asked lapd to run against joey apolito's fingerprints they declined okay we asked for the uh actually let me give you a little cool story here i got to know anthony pelicano the hollywood fixer extremely well throughout this endeavor he was willing to go to lapd to ask for the dna to run that shit again um and the fingerprints and anything else that we want he wanted to go sit with the witnesses to crack them you know the guy was you know he knew joey apolito and he knew obviously he worked on the oj simpson case mark firman was his client and so when i approached him about doing this we ended up becoming really tight and he really wanted to help me figure this shit out um and another six degrees of kevin bacon here is anthony pelicano was incarcerated with the guy who shot sammy apolito wow yeah so it's so fucking very incestuous but what what anyway they didn't want to do anything and now all of a sudden they're going they didn't want to check the fingerprints they declined they didn't want to check the dna they declined that um they don't even want to acknowledge that the investigation was still open at the time they said the case was closed now they're in the ny and the new york times article saying that the case is still open and that they're going to look into this i believe that they already know the answer and they're afraid of what that answer is going to say and we were caught up in something called revisionist history and it's people you know for better or worse people like even chris people such as yourself that you know you guys you guys do a good job presenting these alternative type of scenarios to um things that we all think we know the answers to to really provoke the minds of your uh your viewers and i think that's that's missing from society uh in a very big way in a very mainstream way and it needs to really have a resurgence you know we don't think about shit we just accept the narrative and then regurgitate it we didn't do that michael and i were like this is bullshit and i i'm too young to be in a an oj you know super fan i was i think 11 or 12 years old when this crime happened you know he retired in what fucking 1980 i think so he was long gone i like the naked gun movies just as much as the next guy but nordberg played a very small role in those movies i don't know man i don't know why could maybe it was just fear and incompetence or now we don't want to make it too complicated for the jury so we're just gonna hone in on like blind put blinders on you kick that one away right there they they took i think i think 12 maybe 10 days to explain the dna okay right that's a great point though they were making the jury fall asleep and they were like oh my god i don't know what's going on with their they're lulling the jury their tedium yeah right right so that wasn't i mean this this case went on for a year right the prosecution's case went on for like i think five or six months okay time wasn't the thing that they were worried about here they were just trying to paint a certain narrative and they stuck to it even in light of new information and now the world knows that that's true see that is the beautiful part about mike baker and the new york times that article proves that prosecution was notified of this information while their case was still going on and they did nothing about it wow so i cannot wait to see the documentary uh by the time this comes out it will be out to plug away tell people where they can find you your book and the documentary well thank you so much first of all johnny you're awesome and i i appreciate you having us on um i really do um the documentary is going to be on the new york times and we're going to be on the new york times the new york times and we're going to be on the new york times and we're going to be on the new york times and we're going to be on the new york times and we're going John Peacock. It's called OJ's Accomplice. The book, it's called Orenthal's Accomplice, and you can find it at www.orenthal'saccomplice.com. You know, the pre-orders by the time that this airs will be available. The book might even be out by that time. I think everything's going to kind of scoot up in light of the worldwide news that just came out, which is so crazy to just sit back and know that, you know, it kind of did that shit. That's really cool, man. Yeah, it's historical, actually. Yeah, I think we are going to flip it on its head. I think it's now part of the lexicon. And just, you have an accent when you say it, but Orenthal's Accomplice. Yeah, Orenthal James Simpson is his name. There you go. So it's Orenthal's Accomplice.com. But if you type in OJ's Accomplice, it'll still take you there. So, you know, we did a pretty good job wrapping all this stuff up and getting a hold of all the domains and everything else that you could think of. The book's coming out on Wild Blue Press is the publishing company. They're masters of the true crime genre. Right. And who the hell knows what comes next? We're going to move on, though, guys. We're not fixated on this OJ stuff as much. From the point that all this stuff is released, we're going to move on and apply our talents to other things. Awesome, man. Well, I can't wait to hear your next project. I want to have you back. Yeah, I'll be here. All right, you guys, check it out. Orenthal's Accomplice is the book, and then OJ's Accomplice, I mean, it's going to be big. This will be the documentary of the year, 100%. So we will see you guys next time. Take care. All right, now. All right. Bye.