NV 48 Paul Holmbeck | over hoe de Deense biologische sector erin geslaagd om de retail geld te laten verdienen met biologisch

Welkom weer bij een nieuwe aflevering van NewVoor, de podcast over de toekomst van de landwachtsysteem en de biobaseconomie. Elke sprek is een puzzelstukje bestaan uit nieuwe inzichten die ons gaan helpen met een grotere verband te kunnen duiden. Mijn naam is Alexander Brinzen en ik wens je veel luisterplezier. En welkom door NewVoor. De session van Today is in Englisch en dat is omdat ik een heel speciale gast heb. De eerste is Paul Honebeek. Born in de USA, hij heeft het opgezet en hij heeft het belangrijkste kijkst om hoe organic het van de toekomst kan worden. En dat is de meeste topic voor vandaag. Paul, dank je voor de tijd om te bijna te leren. Ik ben er heel happy met jou. En om te starten, ik denk dat most mensen zoveel idee die Paul Honebeek is en hoe hij opgezet als een amerikan in de danisch organic-moet. Het is een heel simpel te worden, het is de liefste het van de Denmarck. Maar voor over de hele jaar, als ik dat van de Denmarck voor was, ik had been in de environmentalised-related. Ik ben in de Englisch-organisering in de Englisch-vrouw in de intercity. Ik was in een heel veel gastwieting werk. En mijn dag was een journalist, maar als ik naar Denmarck heb, had ik echt in het verantwoord van de organic-moet. Het was niet vast, maar ik had een organic-moet in mijn kid's childcare centrum. Ik had een boodbein club, en dat was al als we had organic-moet en een job openen met de organic-farmers. To be een politie, lobbyist. Ik was er in mijn suur, ik had het geleden. En het was ook een journalist-beest in de intercity, dat was de journalist die het verantwoord is. Ja, ik had 9 jaar geleden. Ik was een stringer voor een paar national-capers, New York Times, USA Today, Boston Globe en de U.S. En toen ik naar Denmarck kwam, had ik het verantwoord van de Scandinavia voor de U.S. Capers. En dat was ook een van de organic-moet. In de journalist die het verantwoord is. Ja, maar ik heb ook geen journalist die er meer, ik weet het niet, die er er in de onderzoek van de andere perspectie. We hebben het alles aan het kijken. En in de journalist is het een beetje om te weten hoe het gaat. En wat zijn mensen er allemaal aan? Wat is het belangrijk om te doen? Wat is het voor? En te weten de kleren van de dingen, die er echt heel veel in de grafstwoord werken, waar je het goed kunt te vinden. Wat de netten zijn, wat de politie is net te doen en dan het er ook opleemt. En dat ik ook in de media ook helpen, omdat ik er in de video heb om te sturen. En dan hoek ik in de historie wat een interessant verantwoord is. Het geeft ons in de volgende jaar een heel veel media. Het is een stedige drumbeat van de focus van organics, het een part van de solution. Get those organic farmers out there getting interviewed telling them why You know they became organic farmers so yeah the journalist the work is a journalist really is a very very useful also just internally, you know working with people fighting out You know with the farmers the processors the traders the food professionals what what are they really need And and how did you approached the transition which Denmark is now famous about how did you realize How I reference how did you how did you push the organics to what it is now and what what did it take to get there? Wow Well, I think you know We one of the things that's different in Denmark if I as I look around book Europe and and also in North America and Africa where I'm working is we manage step-by-step to Kind of get our hands on the levers of change To set an organic agenda and position organics in the market Position organics in policy As a part of the solution to a whole range of problems And also position organics well within the agricultural sector which was quite hostile towards organics at least when I was starting up And you know we had to work really on those relationships to position us as colleagues and not enemies and Try to diffuse as much as possible the you know the hostility and looking at our gags is just a criticism of conventional agriculture and and We policy policy making is one but how did the actual practical Played out I mean you You've mentioned you've got the farmers on board you got the producers on board the retail the restaurants the consumers and even the politics That is quite a there's a lot of frogs in the bucket And what what what was required to align them all but what what what was the common what was the common nominator in that The common denominator in all of that has been to have constant focus on creating value for others And so in the political sphere the our approach hasn't been to come in saying this is what you need to do for organics But you know this is what organics can do for you and so right from the start You know we just just started working with all of the different political parties Where we had really only one that supported us but now it's 11 out of 12 and that's because we Brought organics is a one of the solutions to the problems they wanted to solve and so for some parties It's you know better livelihoods for farmers or better export sales For others it's you know the green agenda protecting our drinking water Protective water quality a nature and for others. It's just animal welfare maybe so but you know It's a kind of a you know empathic process. I mean what what do they want to solve? How how can our organic agenda help them with that and Create value for them as politicians or ministries and it's the same in the market You know Going to retailers were the first country to really break through establishing partnerships with individual retail actors And we did that by motivating them by what organics could do for them One thing is sales of course, but it's much more than that what it could do for their brand as a whole that they're strong Organics the values they can communicate But also for you know people working in retail, you know create really being an exciting partner for them So that you know their work just becomes more meaningful and fun and you know it's There's other arguments you know about that organic consumers buy more when they're in the store each time You know there's a lot of other things so it's kind of Tapping into the motivation factors of of retail And then you know with farmers. It's much the same you know, it's about what motivates farmers well It's it's a higher price obviously, but also the craftsmanship of Organic farming I mean, it's really exciting and trying to gradually shift the Opinions and agriculture towards that organic farmers are actually really good farmers There's a real there are real management challenges here that you have to be a really good farmer to manage and Yeah, and just you know trying to you know show that this is an alternative pathway for them and That's really so that's really true kind of across all of these different actors that need to help to move our addicts forward That that also implies That you need a you needed a lot of consultations then I mean the you actually need it 20 years I mean two decades to come as far as you are now Well, it's you know It's gone and kind of some jumps and usually that's had something to do with How we've been able to utilize the conditions around us and so when there is more focus on Particularly environmental issues that we could be a part of solving We jumped right in there with as part of the solution and so that's one of the reasons that you see Denmark has Integrated organics as one of the tools in a whole range of broad policies for or pesticide reduction, rural development, public procurement, climate. So we're part of the solution. So it's that kind of, you have to be aware of tuned into your environment. What are the opportunities, the salient issues, and it's similar in the market? - But that means once it's embedded in the national strategy, I can only assume that it's much easier for the implementation and all the other actors to jump on that. - But I'm really curious. - It's just constant lobby work 'cause there's so many competing agendas. And even within agriculture, there's huge investments in some very small marginal changes sometimes or technologies that only have marginal importance to just kind of tweak the current conventional practices. While we're fighting for developing organics as a real system change, and we've always been much, much smaller than the conventional farm organizations. But gradually, they've seen that this is one of the pathways that they also think there should be research in and there should be development or subsidies. But it's a constant effort and that requires that the organic organization itself has to be unified and it has to be capacitated. There needs to be professional people who can work with lobby work, but also in the market, motivating retailers. I mean, I remember the difference it may when I could hire my first person who would actually worked in retail. Understood the language, the motivation factors, had some contacts, and I look around Europe and very few countries have organic associations that have at actual market catalyst capacity. And that is a real problem and it needs to be developed in every country. - And very rapidly, that's my biased opinion. But did it also help the cultural settings of the Nordics and specifically Denmark that once they see the sense, once they feel the sense of urgency is easier for them to move forward or is that biased? - I think we've definitely had the benefit of, in Denmark, at least a collaborative culture. We've done a lot of fighting with conventional agriculture. We've tried to minimize conflict, do a lot of collaboration. But there's a collaborative culture and I think there's a tendency kind of across market actors and farm actors that if we have a problem, let's see who we can work together with to solve it. So I think we've had a benefit of that. I think we've also had a benefit in Denmark of a kind of an activist, agricultural policy environment. A lot of agricultural ministries are very laid back. They, the idea of like developing new forms of production and so on is kind of a very foreign thought for them. They administrative some subsidies and so on or maybe have an extension service. But I think there's been more focus on innovation. And so we've been able to position organics as one of the actually most exciting innovations with broadest impact on sustainability and great things for farmers. So we've been able to position organics within that general focus on innovation. So yeah, I think we've been able to build on some positive environments. And honestly, as someone, you know, also a foreigner in Denmark, we joined the Agricultural Council with all the other agricultural organizations. And we were in there for about 10 years. So I sat with all the other directors and so on. And I learned a lot about, you know, they're really tough, very strong on lobby work. And I also learned, you know, just by tuning in to how they were doing their work. - Because one thing I've noticed and that aligns with what you're saying within the Dutch biological, that's what we call biologis, which is the organic biologis movement, is actually that the decentralization of an organization which pushes is harder and has a lot of people employed to make it happen. And also from a marketing perspective. I mean, did you just started now, I think the last two years also with the local government that they have set a target, I think 15% by the logic of the Netherlands. And now the leader has signed an alliance for them to be part of this change. - Yeah, there's, you know, when I was working on the strategy for policy framework and market development with Bionito Land there in 2022, I had the pleasure of interviewing a lot of different people from research, government, processors, farmers, et cetera. And I've definitely noticed some differences. In some respects, the, what I call hegemonic culture, kind of the unified idea of between farm organizations, government and research seems more consolidated in the Netherlands, more like Denmark was maybe 20 years ago, where there's kind of this idea there's really one way to do agriculture. And all we need to do is just keep optimizing on that form for agriculture. They're wrong about that. And that's I think has made it difficult for the organic organizations to come in because the idea of investing in organics didn't really make sense. But we were able to break through in Denmark and I think it was by, you know, just lobby work, but also collaboration with the conventional farm organizations, kind of opening gradually, opening the doors and opening some boxes of resources also to develop organics. So yeah, there needs to be an acceptance of that. I think there's some really positive things happening now with the organic action plan, financing for market development, the dialogue with more retailers. But that can be systematized and much, much greater. And you know, some of the goals are rather modest, you know, getting to 5% of market or, you know, it's just the potential is so much greater, but it requires a strong organic organization that can partner with them and then help them, you know, help retail, expand product assortments, present products better in the stores, communicate much better to consumers about the why of organics. That one factor, those partnerships to retail, I would say is the most important factor why Denmark is the leading country for organic sales. And it's really what's made organics available and visible and affordable and not least meaningful because we've been able to communicate through retail. For me, that's a real sign of like what I call leverage point. In the early 2000s, yeah, we were really thinking, oh, we have to communicate to consumers. But then we realized in a piece of strategy work we did together with some retailers and a lot of good people who knew some things that really we needed to focus on the people who were talking to consumers and who had consumers in their stores and through them leveraged their platform to communicate to consumers that made all the difference. We could never afford to reach out to all consumers, but through retail, we could leverage the power of that platform to convince more consumers and just make it really easy for them. - That's one of the key things, just making things easy for people. - Yeah, I mean, then it's just copy paste and it's just a manual and then you don't have to think about how to do it. You just can implement it. Was it correct that I recall that co-op in Denmark was one of these pioneers? - Absolutely. Co-op was the first retailer that made an actual agreement with a group of organic and vegetable producers for the first ones. And there's great stories about that collaboration 'cause these were a bunch of hippies, and people came out from the buyers, came out from co-op and how two cultures met. But gradually we've been able to professionalize the sector and be really strong partners. Co-op has been a leader, not always. We've also used collaborations with other retailers to also pressure co-op to be more active. 'Cause they can, if you're the only retailer that has organic, so you can kind of lay back. But we've tried to use that competition between retailers too. So they press each other. One gets success and the other one gets more motivated to work with us on new initiatives. And but yeah, co-op has been really great. And we did one of the most recent really big moves was a strategy that ended in 2020, I think it was, where we set a goal, doubling organic market shares in co-op with a whole bunch of different actions. And we did it. We increased their market shares from-- What was it? Seven point five to sixteen percent. Oh wow. I know in the Netherlands that the plus is also moving fast and it has selected a couple of categories where they only will offer biological and not a really interesting approach. For me they tend to become more like an ecological retail I know because they are it's so visible that they have biological products and they are open about it. For them it's me talking as a citizen consumer walking through the shop and which is different but if you go to the let's say stock owned retailers then it tends to feel like more like green washing in some way although they have the good intentions. Yeah. I mean just one of the most effective tools we've used is just to go into these retailers and take a look at their entire product assortment. Really? And point out where all their gaps are and there's this great analysis that co-opted about where we ended up with this analysis about a stairway and typically most people start with at least in Denmark. It's a little different in other countries but start with usually some dairy products and vegetables and then they kind of work their way up to the less and less common organic products and what we show is that if a supermarket chain does not have some of those stairways on certain products maybe they don't have anything much in the grain area, the flour and oats and pastas and so on. If they're missing some of those they not only lose the sales of organic on those products but also on the products further up because they're not helping consumers through their journey up to where they're gradually getting up to the kind of the indulgence products of beer and chocolate and all those things. So it's just really important to identify those gaps and help them to fill those. That is interesting because then you're also helping them reshape the roots within the retailer. Yeah, I am inspiring them and then they can use things that they're doing in storage but focus on whole categories of organic products that some consumers haven't even gotten started with yet. Do campaigns on certain categories because a lot of the benefits of organics is different for different categories. So for fruits and vegetables maybe it's a little more on the issue of pesticide residues. If you're over on some of the grain products in Denmark at least that's one of the things where we use to document how much of our drinking water you can protect because it's all this area that where you're not spraying and not having too much nitrogen. And then on the meat products it's animal welfare. So really targeting to categories, having them in the right place in the stores, running campaigns on specific categories. There's so much that can be done and some people think, "Oh, you know, and I remember at Denmark, I mean they would say, you know, it might get up to 1%, air might get up to 3%, but then it'll probably even offer the conventional, become more like it and that it'll disappear and you know, we just keep going 1%, 3%, 5%, 10%, and we just have kept growing." So there's, I'm tempted to say no limit on how big organic farming can be. We have 30 to 60% of the market now for a lot of basic foods like milk, eggs, flour, oats, a number of fruits and vegetables. Even but not so. So where the north? It's not an ish. It's a norm. And that is extremely interesting that I mean, that organic can grow, I would say fast into, based on what you're saying, I think it lasts 10 years, has been an acceleration. So to achieve that growth in 10 years is a lot. But then again, if you look at the market players and we are always saying the conventional and the organic farmers, my question is, if you move that fast, how do you enable the supply to cope or to follow the demand? Yeah. Well, in our Denmark are our efforts, but also the types of policies we work for. We've always tried to have a balance of push and pull. So things that are driving transition and farming, bringing more farmers into organics on the one end and on the other end, driving market, growing the markets. So farmers can sell their products. And it actually is developed to such a level that we can actually do prognosis, looking forward estimates of how much as a public procurement moves in this direction or in, but through dialogue with retail, what kinds of future development in different categories. And then we can actually go out and look for specific farmers in poor production or in certain types of vegetable production or just existing organic farmers that then can plan better. So we tried to create a balance between supply demand, basically, but preferably, both of them going up at the same time. Yeah, sure. And did that also until that actually by the supply demand, what sort of like plans that that mean there are a lot of questions coming out now. One of them is, did the farmers have a long-term contract? Yeah, I mean, we have, well, we have, I mean, in some categories, the cooperative movement has been really important for us also in managing and forecasting and managing supply and demand. Yeah, that's so much to the demand side, but making sure that supply does not move too fast. So you know, in the, in the, the dairies have not been willing to take in, like we've had farmers on waiting lists to become organic farmers, but the, the dairies won't take more in until they see, you know, the market growing. And so that's, you know, a great argument to get policy to invest more in market development, because then we get more farmers converting and then society has cleaner water and cleaner nature. And so, yeah, but the co-ops have been so important there. And, and you know, sometimes they were a little bit of a barrier. I mean, beginning because, you know, the cooperatives had this sort of one, one farmer say all farmers same price, you know, so they wouldn't give a higher price to organics, but once we got, once we got through that piece, they were willing to pay a premium. Then it was about getting them involved and actually marketing actively the organic products, rather than just kind of having them on, you know, so, but Dave, but now, you know, they've really been important in also, you know, buffering price swings, of course, for farmers, so, cooperative movement is just so important there. And, and, well, you mentioned it also just now, with the price differentiation between, let's say, organic and non-organic. And, do you see also that the price is now lowering on organic or is that, because if there is more demand, you would naturally say than the price for organic is going down. Yet, from a farmer perspective, if he farms organic, his cost structure will also change drastically compared to the, to the traditional way of farming, because he requires less input costs. That means the margin will increase. And then if you look at from a business modeling perspective and business economics, you have the value of death and a lot of farmers I spoke here in the lens, those who have transitioned, the pioneers, somewhere they've had some money stashed away, or they found an investor who was willing to invest, but you have a large majority behind them, which don't have these deep pockets and don't have the, the space to experiment. Let me use that word, to do, to make the jump. Yeah, yeah, there's, I mean, there's some real handcuffs on farmers and a great deal of debt. And so there's definitely a reason to be risk averse as a farmer. What we've tried to do is to buffer that and ensure that we could go out, do the marketing, create the demand, create the higher premium price, create competition for their products so that retailers can't offer nothing for their products. Occasionally, we've had to take, I mean, mostly we're all about cooperation and collaboration and motivation. So we've had to hit hard a couple of times on retail, for example, on the price of milk. When they've cut the price of milk on both conventional and organic, you know, we've been out, you know, you know, passing out milk free on the street to say, you know, might as well be free, because it's cost less than water now, and this is bad for nature, bad for farmers. So we've had to, you know, fight to focus on fair prices for good products. And last time when Aldi led the way, and price cuts on milk, we put out a video saying, you know, all the benefits of organic milk, and then, you know, biorganic milk, but don't buy it at Aldi, because they're driving prices down. So occasionally we've had to put some focus on that, but basically on the price issue, you know, there's a whole number of things that we've had to focus on to try to keep the price premium in the stores as low as possible. And you know, partly that has to do with scale. Partly it has to do with, you know, we had the battles of, you know, not having higher margins on organic products in the stores, and then just having the same margin. And in some cases, having lower margins. But we do need some real game changers that level the playing field in the market, you know, differentiated VAT, for example, on products, you know, if a country has a VAT on food, you could remove that on organic food or cut it in half. I mean, if we just cut our VAT, our 25% VAT on food in half in Denmark, we would have a number of organic products that would actually be cheaper than conventional products. So that's one thing. And then there's, you know, a number of other political steps that could ensure that prices reflect the environmental consequences of production. So pesticide fees, fees on synthetic nitrogen, where there's high use of fossil fuels in production, fees on imported soy from South America, for example. So you know, I think there's a lot could be done to level the playing field in the market on prices. Could you elaborate on that one on the taxes? Because this is the first time I'm hearing that I think was, I've read in my research in Denmark had a pesticide tax, is it true? Yeah, we do. And actually, it's, in the early years, it probably wasn't very effective. It was quite small, but research recently has shown that when they differentiated based on toxicity and set the prices up on these pesticide fees, particularly for those highly toxic substances, it actually started changing farmers' practices. Now how much that means for the consumer price, it's still probably pretty limited. But if you add these things up, if there's in terms of carbon, nitrogen, pesticides, all these different things, antibiotics, if you start putting a price on all these things, then organic starts looking pretty cheap. Yeah, and that's actually what it should be. If you don't put anything in it, it should be cheaper than if you have a lot of inputs to make it grow and make it happen. And then there is no loving playing field. But it is interesting that Denmark was able and willing to incentivize this with certain tax structures, which I assume from a farmer perspective, then it becomes clear on which side of the line you are in the sand. Yeah, those fees also send a signal. It's an economic signal, but it also just sends a signal to farmers about which direction things are going in. Some of your inputs are going to continue to get more expensive on the conventional side. I think that's really important because then farmers are getting a clear message that environment is important. Then going back to the retailers, I was on a conference yesterday and one of the organic people had a presentation and he mentioned that in general retailers take up 50% of the retail price as a margin. And the rest of the price has had the other half has to be distributed along the value chain, which is ridiculous. Then those behind, then that half has, then everybody who is supplying the retail or earns less than the retail, which I didn't know. I mean, farmers, I mean, there's been multiple studies. In some cases, farmers maybe are getting seven cents on the euro. I mean, it's just a really small portion going back to people actually producing the food. But if they're taking 50%, that would be really high in retail, I think. I mean, it's about 25% typically in Denmark. But still, it's quite a lot to the price. And if the organic price is higher already, that is even increasing that amount even further. Did you have your bad as also with retail about the margin they are taking? Oh, yeah. In a lot of countries, it's still the case that it's treated as a specialty product. And those have higher margins, which means that a product that's already more expensive, gets even more expensive and becomes an elite project. Our approach in Denmark has been to democratize organics because for us, organics is for everyone. And so we were the first country where we went into discount supermarkets back in the 2004, we approached a leading discounter as, you know, the first country where we really went all in. And this was controversial. I mean, some people thought, well, that was set a greater downward price pressure on organic products at the farm gate. And you know, I got a lot of negative feedback. That's it from, but we discussed it with enough actors that there was support. And that ended up being absolutely catalytic in the market. Because then all of the discount retailers and the other retailers had to also expand their product assortments. And the slogan for that retailer, Neto, which is the, today is actually the retailer sells most organics in Denmark. Their motto was, everyone should be able to afford organics. And we developed that together with them and a whole strategy for, you know, what products they need and, you know, how to promote them and what messages and so on. They're still using that slogan today. And I think there's really, it's really important that we show that organics is for everyone. It's not an elite project. It's not for rich. Everyone deserves organic food. And so we've tried to really communicate in our communication in general. I mean, we've tried to really be, you know, positive also about, you know, what organics can do for you and for the planet on and, and just bring those messages, the steady drum beat of those messages everywhere where people are and they are also in discount. But that's helped bring margins down. That's one of the other issues that, that's helped us bring margins down. And then we've just had direct dialogue with individual supermarket chains where they say, okay, we want to cut prices on all of our fruits and vegetables. You know, and that was part of our strategy with co-op there, the last big strategy. And they said, well, we're going to, you know, we said, well, are you going to pass that on to the fruit vegetable producers? Oh, yeah, well, you know, make a little, you know, and so we said, well, we don't want you to do that. So we had this back and forth with them. And eventually they said, we'll eat it. And we actually made a campaign out of it. They said, they said, we are going to cut prices and we're not going to send that on to the farmers. And it became this whole campaign. It was great. It was, they called it 200 million crooners worth of love for food. And they earned so much money on it. They ended up selling so much more and they got all these, you know, consumers in their stores that were buying other products also. So they just, they were really smiling. One thing then, then comes to my mind. Because in a position, you always have parties, actors that have invested interests in, in conventional. And if you move away from conventional to biological, how has that playing field played out in Denmark? Because I assume they are not happy that that it's moving to which by organic. Well, we try to work really closely with, you know, the larger food companies to get them involved in organics and they're growing organics. So in that respect, organics becomes an opportunity for them as well. And it also becomes a part of their brand. You know, it strengthens their brand as a whole. And major companies in Denmark that have, you know, really built that into their strategy that this is actually the organics. This is like the tip of the spear. This is where we're developing a lot of new practices. And this is part of our brand. So yeah, we've tried to, you know, identify the benefits for them in that transition to organics. And we're also needed. they're muscles a lot of times you know and these really big campaigns we've tried to put together having some of these bigger companies with has been really helpful it's helped us reach a lot more people so I think it's really important you need these you know innovative smaller organic companies that are really driving innovation developing new products they were first into you know plant based organic and other things and it's but you need also the big company and there's a nice dynamic between those things it's an ecosystem you know so you have these these innovative organisms you know pressuring the larger ones to do more and then when they get better the small ones have to be even more innovative to continue to compete with the larger actors that sometimes have lower prices and they did it also implied that you had a conversation about ESG and CSRD with them because in the end they have to report their environmental stories yeah well a lot of you know a lot these conversations happened long before ESG but yeah I mean now it's clear that organics is contributes across a whole range of sustainability goals so just like in the political sphere you know it's like a you know it's one stop shopping for a whole range of good things and so for ESG reporting it organics contributes across a whole range of goals the companies would have now I think your organic movement needs to sharpen our documentation on outcomes like what we do you know the whole organic standards guarantees a whole range of positive practices for climate and soil and biodiversity and animal welfare but we need to also have you know the translation of those practices into concrete outcomes you know numbers of tons of CO2 emissions reduced for example on that or water protected drinking water protected so that those can you know easily glide into the ESG reporting for for companies and retail but I'd like if I would summarize what you've been telling now is that actually you have become a marketing consultant for the retailers on how they can actually create better profits by transitioning towards organic yeah I mean it's a I call it a partner that to be a really good partner for for retail and the same is true for food service and for allies in environmental organizations to psych work with them in a way that their work gets better and that's that's what is about being in an ecosystem we have politically ecosystems market ecosystems farm community ecosystems and what we bring needs to add value to what's there like in any natural ecosystem and there's a lot of mutuality you know organisms bringing nutrients to each other on helping them it exist and live and and you know bring your resources to them and then receiving things that you need so I think just really you know bringing value to to all the to retail but to any actor really it's also how we've tried to work with other organizations on environment animal welfare climate consumers organizations that having this connectivity you know being in contact with them listening to them so like the animal welfare organization in Denmark was not particularly positive on organics had a lot of conventional farmers on their board but we got their people out and met with our committees of you know pig farmers dairy farmers and we listened we listened to them about what they thought needed to be better in our farming and they could see that we actually changed some practices not everything we didn't agree about everything but we were listening and we had this sort of you know then you develop over time kind of an understanding and a solidarity and also you get lots more information and that's what we need to be porous like in an ecosystem getting information from environment and animal welfare and climate organizations challenging us but we're also in solidarity with them and so when the shit hits the fan and there's some kind of case you know or opportunity then they're truly strong allies also in the political sphere so that kind of ecosystem thinking I think is just so useful whether it's political or the even the marketing ecosystem yeah and then I'm going back to your background I think you were on the right time on the right position being a journalist and having experience in grassroots project because this is actually what you need to drive this this kind of change and I feel you have a really good marketing background so you also are able to to translate that into words or into framing that like people actually understand and that is not easy with these complicated issues always and yeah and as it is systemic how do you separate things so that people can understand it and and yet keep track of the whole system yeah and it's it's we're really fighting for a holistic systems change and not everybody's there you know so you have to take them where they're at and then try to also introduce some new elements to things um and I've seen it in so many different areas like we in the policy area constantly you know they'll be focusing on one problem at a time you know now we're going to reduce nitrogen and now we're going to do something about pesticides and instead you know bring these holistic solutions or sit or explaining the connection between you know actually the pesticide used in nitrogen use has a lot to do with each other you know if you do organic you know we can solve both at the same time um but then also with you know different allies you know trying to you know introduce new elements so we you know in the full public procurement all the public kitchens in the in the night already in the 90s you know organic pioneers we were doing plant-based plant-rich meals um with less waste uh and organic and it was part to start with that was to pay the organic premium we reduced about of of meat and amount of waste and use that to cover the organic premium in these you know schools hospitals but we were basically developing plant-rich meals and so even before was called plant-based but we had this holistic approach and so when we're talking dealing with now with you know cities and they're saying oh yeah we need to do more plant-based but we don't really need organic well you know if you don't have it actually matters how those plants and plant-based are grown we also then you also get all these other benefits that you're driving uh with public procurement and it's the same in retail you know we have the plant-based movement a rush of conventional products uh you know as if it didn't matter how those plants were grown it was spray the shit out of them or whatever it is and you know and then now it's coming out you know impossible burgers if finding glyphosate and all these other things but it's like it really matters so trying to bring that sort of holistic approach it's that that's been a long hard road but we've really made some progress on that I think how is it back home with the organic moment in US and the United States well the market is actually greater it's there about 6% and I think the Netherlands I think it's at 4.4% now if I remember right could be um and so it's a little higher on the market but the sheer of agriculture is uh around 1% and um one of the big challenges in the United States is it's a very under coordinated organic sector so they have a lot of organizations some of them are doing very good work but they're not coordinating their work at all uh it's kind of sectarian some are very commercially focused some are very agriculture focused and it's uh I think there's such a potential um they're also for policy you know under the right policy environment um to to advance organics um but yeah the market I mean there's some some some it's a very so world's largest market for organic food uh because because when when you research regenerative farming or organic farming those in the US tend to be pioneers in in many ways um and and yet it is not I mean I then you get an impression that the US is organic farming is huge and it has it has big volumes and everything is is is available in the retail wall marked and maybe some others and yet if you really look deeper you see that they have a small percentage and and that is sort of like a dualistic I mean they they are showing how best what the best practices are and and you see them also transferring their knowledge to Europe and yet they are not able to let's say put the shoulders on under it and and and and show the Americans that organic is is the best way forward and yeah to find it hard to see yeah yeah it said there's definitely truth to that. And it's, there's a number of, number of issues. I think what you see in the United States in most areas, but definitely in agriculture is you do see a lot of corporate capture. And so some of the things they do fight with each other a lot about in the United States is that, you know, some things have been allowed in the standards, things that have been pushed by very large corporations, hydroponics, fairly intensive, some two intensive animal production. So some things have been allowed in the United States in organics. And that's sort of split, you know, the movement as well, which then weakens the movement. And then, you know, but it is still, I guess, you know, I wouldn't point particularly to the United States. I would say many European countries also really don't have a collaboration about driving the market. It's like, no one's developing the market. I mean, really seriously, I mean, going in, working with the individual super market change, just helping them be much better at organics. There's some good work and there's been a few good campaigns and so on, but it's, no one is doing strategic, consistent market development. And then on the farm side, you know, it's, yeah, farm organizations, you know, that could be expanding, organics in agriculture are very undercapacitated. So in terms of getting out, walking the farm with more farmers, talking about how their farm would look as an organic farm, where the challenges are and where the opportunities are, I'm just too little of that. And then that then also explains the lack of traction where the citizen really wants it. And then the consumers influence it by the marketing and the marketing needs to be supported by, by organic movement showing them that the marketing is actually profitable. And now it's, yeah, it has to be a premium, otherwise, it will never be profitable. Yeah, yeah. What, what, what do you see happening in other areas in the world? I mean, you're also working in Africa is, is, is organic there booming or is it the same story everywhere in the world at the moment? Yeah, it's growing. I think what we see generally in the global south is that there are, you know, some good mobilization going on for, for policy. Last year we completed, I've been supporting the government and organizations in Tanzania to develop a national strategy for, for organic agriculture. And now we're in the implementation phase, ensuring financing for training of farmers, development of markets and development investments and supply chains. A lot of the challenges are the same in the culture, the cultural differences for sure. But there's a great potential and there's a real interest from farmers. And one of the real differences, you know, a lot of people say, you know, our galaxies can feed the world while food security and nutrition security is the biggest motivator for organics and every ecology in the global south. Because through, you know, putting focus on creating more fertile soil, doing multi-crabbing, you're not only getting better total yields, but also more diverse production. So you're reducing risk and at the same time diversifying your nutrition base. And so they're getting good results. And so there's a lot of really good, you know, kind of grassroots strategies to disseminate knowledge about organic and ecological practices. We actually took one of those forms of a knowledge dissemination called farm family learning groups in Tanzania and Uganda. Back to Denmark, many years ago, and called it barn schools. And it's a very popular way that farmers in Denmark share knowledge now, moving around between each other's farms, setting focus on single, a single challenge at a time and bringing the collective knowledge of those farmers to work on solving those problems. And it's so it's like those kind of exchanges, we need a lot more of those things because there's a lot of people can learn from each other. So yeah, there's some great, you know, organizations and, but it's, you know, capacity of those organizations to develop markets and drive policy is of course limited. They need a lot of support, just like in Europe. So yeah, we that piece that capacity in the organic sector itself to drive change. That for me is the most critical missing piece in most countries. This challenge in Denmark also at times. And Paul, I'm just curious. And does it mean that the, let's say the brand, the organic brands, those who use organic agriculture in their products to the consumer. Are they able then to fund these kind of organic movements because a retailer is big with the retail also has big global brands in in them and, and they have the money and the cash to do the advertising and to do the neuro programming of other citizens. Is the organic movement or and the organic brands? Are they, are they able to do that or are all those products still too small in in profit margins to actually fund the lobby work? Yeah, there's like a dynamic there. You want it upward going spiral where you have, you know, farmers and processors and traders that are, you know, doing better and then can reinvest in their organizations. And that's definitely part of the dynamic. But then, you know, at least in Denmark and some other countries, it's on that base of of member support. And I would definitely encourage, you know, companies that are not members of their organic associations should become members and support it because it lifts all boats. But what on the base of that support from members then getting policy which then invests in activities that can grow the market, support farmers and transition, you know, with better advice and extension and so on. So, so it's, you want all that to make that upward going spiral in the market and in transition in agriculture. You need those different elements. But the main catalyst and stimulant is the organic associations themselves because, you know, policies definitely a lever of change. Where does that come from? You know, and market initiatives are also a lever of change. But who pulls that lever? I mean, it really has to be the organic sector. And if I have one criticism in the Netherlands, I would say that it's been difficult to get government to understand that when they're investing in, for example, market development, that it's very important to invest through the organic associations because then they build capacities. They bring actors together. They leverage the power within retail. They're much better advisors to companies about, you know, developing new products and so on. So you get this, you get this constant motor for development of the market that way. If the government just goes out, does a campaign, you know, and this and it's gone after that. You need to really build your motors of change. And that requires a vision of how the organics contributes to all the issues, governments have because of bad practices. And it's also, you know, you need a theory of change. You know, what actors, what needs to happen in order for change to happen in the market and in the fields? What was your theory of change? Well, it's put it most simply. It is this, you know, growing from below, so building capacity within the organic sector to be professional catalysts in the market with retail, food service, to be motivating in the political ecosystem. So both other organizations and politicians, elected politicians, but also ministries. So impacting that political ecosystem and then working in agriculture directly with farmers, motivating, inspiring, incentivizing farmers to move. So that theory of change, it doesn't mean that the organic organizations do everything, actually the opposite. The idea is to motivate other actors to do something. So even the conventional farm organizations have been, they were opponents to start with. Now they're partners in some aspects, at least, we'd still disagree about GMOs and bunch of other stuff, but we can still work together. So it's like constructive conflict in a way. So those dynamics, understanding those dynamics, that's the theory of change. There has been in Denmark, at least. Yeah, and then I understand that once you have the leverage and the levers of each actor, then you can slowly have a strategy on pulling the levers with the right energy and the right pressure to move forward. And they can be used to motivate each other. I mean, for politicians, consumers are voters. And so we can emphasize for them that people are backing this up. And that makes it popular. So we've even documented for politicians and said, look, we've looked at people who vote for your party. 60% of them are buying organic products every week now. Just see it all. You know, this could be someone who's kind of against organic products, but then they're singing, okay, you know, this is something people actually want more of. And you know, in the other way around, obviously political support, like political signal, and we got the goal of 60% organic in all public kitchens. Finally, got wholesalers who are really anti-organic to wake up a little bit and think, okay, we're going to have to do something here. So then we got them to send all of their sales people out onto organic farms. And we showed them what it's all about. We motivated them. So they started really marketing organics rather than talking it down. They were saying, oh, well, you know, it's really expensive and we don't always have it. And the quality is not good enough. I mean, they were just really nuts. So that political signal stimulates market actors. And then you need to listen to these different actors about problems they're having, you know, sometimes the solution is with another actor. And so we had one of our closest allies in public procurement, you know, and transitioning all these hospitals and schools and so on to our gags was that the, you know, the trade unions for the people working in those public kitchens, they became a great ally because they had an interest in the prestige and the transition and the education and all of that was, there was in this sustainable transition, but their people hated the paperwork. So the idea, you know, all the documentation of how much, you know, from the different people they were buying from was organic. And so we got the wholesalers to document the organic percentages for them because they have these, you know, gold silver bronze, 90, 60, 30 percent organic. So once the wholesalers started documenting the percentages, they not only removed a negative experience for those people in the kitchens, but we started this positive feedback mechanism so that if a kitchen had a goal of, you know, a hospital had to be at 60 percent organic and they started getting down towards 60, then the wholesalers says, hey, you know, you got to buy more organic and oh, and then by the way, you know, can we help you with that? And so it's just kind of set up this positive motivational dynamic and that's what you want because that's people motivating people through the supply chain. And those kind of things only happen if you listen to each other. And that is something I'm going to take out of this one poll. Listening and going out with each other, no matter if you are disagreeing, but once you're on a farm, once you're in a place where the change is happening, then you can have a conversation about what what the essence is of the change. Yeah. Yeah. And where you what your commonalities are, and then you can build on the differences and see if you can reach differences because if you agree on a, agree that a problem needs to be solved and you have agency. Yeah. Exactly. And what I've learned, politicians, it's also been about, you know, the sides, you know, tapping into what problems they want to solve. We've never tried to get them to choose sides between conventional and organic because we would have lost. I mean, with most of them, they would have chosen conventional. So it wasn't about tearing down the conventional production, but it was because they don't have to choose sides in order to build up the organic production with good policy. Now, as long as they experience it and see it themselves and understand the story behind it, then they can learn about it. I have one question, last question, Paul. And it, I'm asking that because eventually we're coming to that point. If you reflect back to the journey you had in Denmark and also if you're reflecting back to all your advisory work, how much is it about personal leadership, personal change inside that it can be done differently? Because it, it, for most people, change is a fear and an obstacle and understanding the benefits requires that you look inwardly and you reflect and reflecting is something humans can do very well, but they will not do that voluntarily. They must have must be something to be triggering them to reflect. Yeah. How, if you look back at the work you have done, what has happened with the people did something happen with the people you worked with? Yeah. It's, I mean, people are motivated on all different levels and in a variety of ways. And I think, you know, if you bring, I think first you need to bring to others that you wish them well and that you, you are positively in tension towards them. And after that, then I think it's also about, you know, what, what is it that motivates them? And I think that can be curiosity. I mean, it can be ambition, craftsmanship. Like I think like some wholesalers were actually motivated by, we can be the best to solve this. And farmers can be motivated by seeing other farmers, you know, the social element because the social element can be inspiring. A lot of farmers look to what they consider the best farmers to say, you know, what are they doing? So we've actually actively had hunted leading farmers to get them to at least just say they were thinking about organics. It was a possibility for them because it sends a signal to others, but then also just farmers just learn from each other really well. And that also means and farmers, they were the ones who taught me also, I think I've always been kind of collaborative, but on the issue of, you know, criticizing conventional farming, I just will never forget the farmer said to me, he said, you know, I would rather be playing cards with my neighbor than arguing with him about what our organizations have said about each other. And so it's just, you know, maintaining that good dialogue with neighbors because we try to see every farmer as a potential organic farmer. And that means, I mean, some, you can't avoid pissing them off. If you talk about pesticides that you don't use pesticides, they're going to see criticism some of themselves. But I think, yeah, bringing goodwill and then tapping into, you know, how different people are motivated. And then I think it's just the joy of working together. I think there's also with people like you're not used to working together with. It's kind of interesting. You know, it's like, for me, that's diversity is strength. That's part of the organic ecosystem thinking you can eat greater diversity. I think that's really true in humans making change together is that, you know, those kitchen workers who get a dialogue with some farmers or those, you know, farmers who get more insight in consumers and what they're thinking and can work together with them or work together to develop new products. You know, it's when we got retailers and a mill owner and a farmer together with one of our product development experts from our guy Denmark and they developed a whole range of new products from this particular island that then could go 100% organic based on old grain varieties. I mean, they were all totally into this because it was a really exciting idea that challenged each of them, but because they were together and they had this shared idea, God, you know, we can do this. Then they like give it that extra effort and use their best self. And I think just, you know, that's joy and motivation and that's always needed in making any change. It gives people courage also to try new things, take chances and then support people and when things go badly, support them. Ik denk dat het een van de dingen ik heb in het porten. Dank je, Paul. - Je bent. En wat vind je van het gesprek is dit je wat waard om ook doornaartuur te worden. Dat kan via petje af of via de nieuwe voor website, je onderzoel je de linkswinden. Want juist jij maakt het mogelijk dat ik de gesprek er voor iedereen toe ga klukken houden En nog de langere echte nieuwe edties kan blijven maken. Ik hoop jullie volgende keer weer te zien. Dank je wel.