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Speaker 3Hello and welcome to the How Not to Screw Up Your Kids podcast. So, pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat, and enjoy the conversation. This is episode 96, and today's episode, Nutrition for ADHD, I'm joined again by the incredible Lucinda Miller, founder of NatureDoc and running busy clinics across the UK, specialising in childhood nutrition. Lucinda has been practising as a naturopathic iridologist and herbalist for 20 years. and has also qualified in functional medicine. She's also a mother of three. Now, conservative estimates are that between 3% and 5% of the world population has ADHD. Now, clinicians would probably argue it's more like 8% to 10%. That's a staggering number. In this episode, Lucinda will share her knowledge of using nutrition to support children and adults with ADHD. ♪♪♪ I will be recording an episode very soon, which will be looking at ways we can support children with ADHD from a behavioural perspective. Now, our give is going to be full details of how you can connect with Lucinda through her website and also her socials, and also we'll be providing a link to purchase her upcoming course if you feel that that's going to be particularly helpful. I have already signed up. So, as ever, if you enjoy this episode, I would love it if you could follow and review this podcast so that others can find us and we can spread the love. So, until next time, here's Lucinda. ♪♪♪ Welcome, welcome everybody. I am so excited that I have got Lucinda Miller back. Her episode early on in the podcast, if you go back and have a look at that, is one of our most downloaded episodes. And Lucinda is here to join us. And we're going to be talking about her. And we're going to be talking about ADHD. So, Lucinda, welcome, welcome back. Mary-Anne, it's wonderful to be back. It's so great to see you and to catch up with you. Amazing. Now, we're going to be talking about ADHD. I think what's probably really a good idea is just to start off with, what got you interested in it in the first place?
Speaker 4Well, it's really funny. In fact, my very first date with my husband, he mentioned that he'd just been diagnosed with it. And it was probably the first time I'd ever heard of it. And then within two years, I was diagnosed. And then at least two of our children have it. And we are sort of a family, really, of neurodivergence. So it was something that we kind of took on board and thought about. But I guess what happened was when our eldest was really struggling with school, we realized that it was sort of causing more problems for him than maybe the rest of us. So I looked into it in a lot of detail. And he was too young to even consider medication at that point. And so I thought, well, what can I do with nutrition? Because that's what I've always done. And I'd learned a lot about the gut-brain axis, which is the connection with the gut bacteria in your tummy and your brain and how it makes your neurotransmitters and also how nutrition is the sort of building blocks for your brain cells and to help your brain to work. So I thought, well, let's give this a go first because he was probably five or six when it was flagged up. And we knew that he wasn't going to be assessed until he was sort of seven or eight. So we had a bit of time on our hands. And so I did some lab tests and found some really interesting things going on in his system, including this imbalanced gut. And literally within three days of sort of changing around probiotics and things like that, he woke up in the morning and he said, Mommy, my brain's not playing hide and seek anymore. I can concentrate. And I said, what do you mean by that? And he said, well, it's like my brain's got five boys to find before my brain works. It's like the others. And every few months during this sort of program that we got him on with various vitamins and minerals, probiotics, et cetera, he kept on saying, I can see one around the corner. And then you say, I found him. And then at the end, he was so funny. And he said, there's one more to find, Mom. But so do all the other boys. So I'm just going to leave it at that if that's OK. So he basically felt that his brain had got to the stage that it was quite equal to all the other boys in the class. And by that point, he had started making friends. His tics and blinks had gone away. His gut was so much better. And things like his writing. So he's very dyspraxic as well. So his writing really caught up. He could get his brain on paper. He was able just to keep up. So he'd been put in the bottom set. And he was now sort of middle to top set. So he just really just came up in all levels. And the loveliest thing was that he started hugging me. And before that, he used to say it hurt to hug. And suddenly, he said, it feels all cozy and nice now, mummy. So that was my story with him. And that just got me really grabbed. I thought, gosh, if we can do that much for this little boy, what can we do for others? And I've been on a bit of a mission myself. Because when you have three babies, you get very fatigued and tired. And my ADHD had got quite out of control. So I had to do lots of nutritional things to really support my adrenals, my thyroid, my blood sugars. And those, in turn, really helped with my focus, my concentration, and so forth. And so just I got rather hooked. And this was a long time ago, because he's now nearly 22. And since then, I've been learning as much as I can about ADHD, about autism, neurodivergence, and how nutrition can really help to enhance that. So it's not about trying to cure or get rid of any of these things, because I fundamentally believe that they can be super skills. If you're a nutritionist, your brain's working clearly and it's calm enough to be able to think out of the box, be creative. You know, to have an interesting brain is always fabulous, but it's just so tough when you've got mental health problems, you've got energy problems, you've got immune problems, you've got gut problems, just, you know, anxiety through the roof. All these things can really, really impact on day-to-day life. And a lot of people find it really difficult to get that back. So anyway, that's what I've been doing. And we run a clinic called NatureDoc, which specialises in neurodivergence. And we're about to launch an online course on ADHD, which is really, really exciting. And I hope that that's going to be able to give a whole load of parents, but also young people, those foundations on how to help with nutrition, their ADHD.
Speaker 3Oh, this is so amazing, Lucinda. And we will be sharing all of the links to the course. You know, it's. It's so needed at the moment. And Lucinda, one of the things that I've become very aware of is that there's been a huge increase in the number of children that are being diagnosed with ADHD or even what I'm seeing a lot of is adults then also being able to have almost aha moments and being able to recognise a lot of those sort of character traits. Lots of celebrities that have now been very open about their ADHD. Can you tell us, with the wisdom that you've got around that sort of nutrition, what do you think is causing this sort of surge? Are we seeing more ADHD?
Speaker 4Well, first of all, social media does play a role. TV programmes do play a role. It makes people more aware, of course. But, you know, this has always been around. And I think there's always been neurodivergent brains, just they may not have been recognised. And it's really exciting these things are being recognised. The trouble is they're being medicalised. And actually, you know, yes, for autism there's no medication, but for ADHD there is. The medication can be life-changing for many people, however, it only works in a small window during the day. So it's not going to help you either. either side of that window and a lot of people do have side effects um you know some people become more anxious some people don't sleep very well there are all sorts lots of people lose their appetite which isn't great for the growing child so there are many sort of you know it's not the it's not a perfect solution but why are we seeing it more in terms of nutrition and so forth so obviously there are strong genetics and you know we've got some incredibly interesting brains from centuries back you know who have had neurodivergent brains you know you whether it's einstein whether it's um all these people are incredible so they've always been there maybe it's not been recognized as autism or adhd or whatever but it's always been there however i do fundamentally believe that genetics there's this sort of way of putting this which even you know cambridge scientists will be talking about and this is where genetics low - the gun and the environment pulls the trigger which essentially means we're all born excuse my french with shitty jeans um but what it is is whether they're expressed or not and so your environment so your food your sleep patterns your hydration your stress whether you are able to detox or not not all these things really make a difference to whether these things are magnified or not or not and so i think it's important to think about that and i think it's important to expressed. So there's no one gene for autism. There's no one gene for ADHD. There are many hundreds of genes that can predispose you to these outcomes. However, if you can work on your diet, your environment, your lifestyle, then these can be dampened down. And so you'll still have these things, but they won't be as magnified, as exacerbated as they would have been. And I think a lot of people find that things are getting worse over the years. It's like a little child who think, well, maybe they were speaking a bit late, but they were super cute and they'd never caused any problems. A little bit of a fussy eater. And then they get to school and they get totally overwhelmed by the environment at school. They don't eat at school. And these things just get worse and worse. And then the anxiety kicks in, the self-esteem goes down, mental health kicks in. So I think so often, if you can start early with interventions, it can make a massive difference, even if you suspect. And the waiting lists are so long now. I mean, I believe for adult ADHD in the South of England, it's five years now. So there's just no point just waiting for that magic bullet for this medication that might or might not make a difference. And if they do make a difference only for a window of the day, which can make you more productive, brilliant, it can make you more focused, but it's not going to solve all your problems. And I'm not saying nutrition will solve everything, but it's going to solve all your problems. And I'm not saying nutrition will solve all the problems either, but they can really build those foundations, those strong building blocks to really help to enhance both the brain function and also to be able to help resilience and so forth so that you don't crash. Because I think the biggest thing is loads of people burn out with ADHD. They have this ADHD burnout. It's almost like a PTSD where they've been going through life trying to deal with this different brain. And a lot of people will say, hey, it's because the world's not set up for my brain. Now, it's not going to change quickly. You know, five years of diagnosis, I'm talking about 50 years till change in this environment, probably. So you know, somehow we've got to adapt. And there are so many strategies you can do to be able to cope and to be more
Speaker 3resilient. And I love the fact that Lucinda, you talk about this idea that it's not that not seeing it as a sentence as such, but actually seeing it, there is the superpower. And there are things that we can do to optimise the superpower and to downgrade it. And I think that's a really good example of how we can downplay some of the aspects which cause the main challenges by something that surely is much more that we can be empowered and in control of, which is what we eat.
Speaker 4Absolutely. So we, you know, most of us eat at least three times a day. People with ADHD are funny eaters often, you know, they often are sort of slightly driven by how much dopamine they need to make. So some are mega snackers. Some seem to binge once a day. Some seem to be a bit more consistent. Some need chocolate, some need sugar, some need savoury. We're all slightly different. And that can change things to us. So when people say what they eat, we can get an idea of maybe what they might be deficient in, what they might be craving. And then I think the big thing is with ADHD, what is it sort of in terms of metabolic side of things, we're looking at generally, and this is not always, we're generally looking at someone with low dopamine, which is a really, really important brain hormone or neurotransmitter, which helps with focus, it helps with pleasure, it helps with the reward. And then there's often far too much adrenaline or norepinephrine. And this can make you in a fight or flight state. So very often, the sort of standard ADHD is someone who's hyperactive. So they tend to be very distractible, very hyper and very on edge, they tend to be quite kind of, you know, wired. But there are lots of inner attentive people, which used to be called ADD, it's now will be merged together. But essentially, it's attention deficit without the hyperactivity. And they tend to be more dreamy. They tend to have their head in the clouds, they tend to be a bit more switched off. But equally, they're having just as many problems focusing and so forth. And so essentially, you're trying to find that they tend to have slightly less bubbling adrenaline, they tend to be lower in that, but the dopamine still needs supporting. But the amazing thing is that these neurotransmitters are created by nutrition, the building blocks of making dopamine is tyrosine, which is from meat, it's from eggs, it's from cheese, it's from nuts and seeds. It's, you know, you need folate, you need iron, you need vitamin D, you need zinc, you need all these really important nutrients to make dopamine. Equally, adrenaline to get that well balanced, you need these like things like magnesium, so all the foods that you know, instinctively know have more nutrition in them will be helping. So people often say exactly what foods should I be eating for this and that. And I say eat nutrient dense foods, the foods that you can look at know there's more nutrition in those foods than other foods. So what I'm saying is instead of going for white bread, or you know, sort of beige kind of ultra processed foods go for foods like red meat, eggs, dairy, green vegetables, anything that's dark colours, bright colours, nuts, seeds, you know, pulses, olive oil, all the things that you know, have a lot of nutrition in versus things that are slightly empty calories, like crisps or whatever.
Speaker 3What I love about the way that you're approaching this Lucinda is that it doesn't, I think what you're saying is we don't need to have a diagnosis for our child. In fact, if we're suspecting any of these patterns of behaviour, we can instantly act by looking at the sort of our children's diet and also at our own if we suspect that this is also a trait of ours as well. I guess one of the questions that I think probably parents are going to ask is, let's say I've got a child that I suspect has got ADHD. How do I begin that take begin to take those first steps and altering what I'm currently feeding them in a way that might boost that? What are kind of those first best steps I should be looking at taking?
Speaker 4Well, as I said, dopamine needs tyrosine and tyrosine is a protein rich food. So what I would the first thing I would do is try and introduce lots of protein at breakfast time. So that might be a boiled egg to begin with. It might be some Greek yogurt, it might be some peanut butter, it might be some ground seeds hidden in the porridge. So it's getting lots of protein in and over time developing that breakfast to be mainly kind of good protein, good fats, and maybe some vegetables rather than too sweet, but a load of my recipes because I'm not going to be eating a lot of protein. So what I would do is try and introduce lots of protein in and over time developing that breakfast to be mainly kind of good protein, good fats, and maybe some vegetables rather than too sweet, but a load of my recipes because I'm not going to be eating a lot of protein.
Speaker 1put your phone down instead of firing off that text. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I can vouch for Lucinda's cookbooks. We will share the link. I have both of your books and cannot wait for the third to come out. And quite genuinely, there are recipes from your first and second book that even my eldest at 23 is still making. All of the time. So I would highly recommend it. And certainly, I found, I don't know if this is the case you think as well, Lucinda, is that if we're trying to get our children on a journey of altering some of the habits that they've got around foods that are not so helpful for them, that if we can get them involved in the preparation, that that can also make a big impact too.
Speaker 4Absolutely. So I find that ADHDers tend to fall in two camps. They absolutely love food. They often become chefs. They're real foodies. It's something that they're really good at. And they're something that really drives their senses. It kind of files them up. It gives them a dopamine rush. They rather enjoy, they're quite good at sort of bringing together lots of different ingredients and bringing together and experimenting. It sort of works with their brain. But there are many who really, really don't like food at all. They find it very bland and boring. Very often, they're the ones that are low in something called zinc. And zinc is an incredibly important mineral for ADHD. It really helps with nervousness. It helps with anxiety. It helps with system balance. It helps, basically helps to make acetylcholine and GABA and dopamine. And it essentially helps the body to regulate. So it helps with emotional regulation. It helps with self-regulation. It helps with executive function. So all these things that so many people with ADHD suffer from, it can help with working memory issues, processing issues. So these things always often come together. But what's really interesting is your low, in zinc, you don't make enough gastric juices. So that can stop you from growing. And many kids with ADHD really struggle with their growth. They tend to be quite small. And another thing is it helps to build appetite. And very often, you know, one side of the camp of ADHD, they're not at all hungry in the morning. They feel a bit sick in the morning. It's almost like their bodies don't wake up till later on in the day. And again, getting enough zinc in can really help with that morning. So if you haven't eaten breakfast, then you're not going to eat lunch. And then you're going to be absolutely starving at sort of four or five in the afternoon. And that's where people are sort of seen as binge eating. But actually, what they're trying to do is catch up with not eating the rest of the day. So again, zinc can really help with that. And in fact, zinc really helps with side effects of medication generally. So it's a good thing to take if you haven't got on with ADHD medications very well is to take some zinc. And that can be very, very helpful. But it also helps with a sense of smell and taste. And because it helps with the neurological system, it really helps with oversensitivity. So a lot of people with ADHD also have sort of hypersensitivity to smells and taste and texture, and so forth. And so therefore, that can really, really help with that too. So it's a super, super duper, super duper good thing. Yeah, super important mineral to know about. And when children are going through a growth spurt, then they need more. So this is where teenagers often are really, they sort of start to go downhill and why there are so many teenagers that get diagnosed with ADHD haven't gone under the radar before. It's because they're going through puberty, so they need masses of zinc to help them grow into men and women. They also need masses of zinc to help them grow. They need masses of zinc also to stimulate their sense of taste and smell. So very often you start seeing narrowing of the diet, they tend to go towards all the ultra-processed foods rather than the good quality foods. And then you start sort of seeing the beginnings of, I'm not saying eating disorders, but you know, just like rigid, rigid eating. And that can be a big sign for needing zinc. So zinc is super duper important. You can see where instead of thinking, you know, what should you eat with ADHD? It's thinking what might be going on inside, which is driving. These eating behaviours.
Speaker 3That's so interesting. So it's the fact that what our children are doing is a result of what might be deficient within them. And then they're being drawn to those types of foods because of it.
Speaker 4So it's almost because of the deficiency, it's switched off those sort of gastric juices, those appetites. So they're sort of just eating the easy wins, you know, the crunchy, bland, sweet, you know, the stuff that's very addictive. But what's a really interesting thing is another sign of losing. is someone who likes to put things in their mouth that are not food. So it could be constantly putting pens in their mouths or tissues in their mouths or chewing on their collar or their t-shirt and often it's rather wet and dribbly. And another nutrient that you can produce this thing, it's called picker. A lot of people when they're pregnant go through this, they sort of eat ice and things like that and sort of craving random things. But they've sort of gone off food, but they're onto other, as I said, non-food items. It's called picker, P-I-C-A. And this can also mean low iron. And again, iron helps tyrosine, which helps to make dopamine. It basically converts the tyrosine into dopamine. So if you don't have enough iron in your system, guess what? You're going to probably show signs or stronger signs of the ADHD. And during puberty, especially girls, you're going to be starting to menstruate. And of course, that's what you're losing more iron through the menstruation than you would be. And so often we have these young people who, you know, I can see why they're trying not to eat meat. They're trying to, you know, eat more plant-based, but a lot of those don't have very much iron in them. So what's happening is they're going through puberty where they need a lot more of the nutrient. They are then not eating that nutrient as abundantly as they should. And as a result of the girls, they're bleeding it out. So this is where their iron levels crash down and they go pale. They go tired. Their ADHD gets much, much worse. And there can be a lot of anxiety and OCD. And again, once you get that level up, and unfortunately, I love the doctors on so many levels, but in terms of iron levels, they're not brilliant. So there's something called anemia. And anemia means you've got profound low iron. And there's a marker called ferritin, which is your sort of iron stores. And it should be between 12 and 400. And if you're below 12, so say you're 10 or 11, you'll be called anemic. And the thing about that, but if you're between, say, you know, between 12 and 400, they won't do anything about that. So essentially, it is thought, research has found that if your iron levels, your ferritin levels are over 70, so that's not even halfway, but you know, we're looking at around 70 plus, that means that is when your dopamine is optimized, your energy is optimized, your immune system is optimized, even things like your hair, because hair starts falling out if you don't have enough iron. Now, at NatureDoc, we almost always ask for people's blood tests to see what's come up before what's been checked. And very, very often, ferritin has been checked. And without, I mean, literally 95 out of 100 times, we've got very low ferritin. So it's not anemia, but it's something like 18, 22, 25, 30. So it's kind of skimming along the bottom. And it's just not enough to can change people's outlook dramatically in terms of mood, energy, focus, because of course, what does iron do? It pumps oxygen to all your cells in your body, including your brain cells. Oh, my gosh, that is just
Speaker 3that is and I've heard that this issue around ferritin often with parents where they are literally just skimming around the edges with that is your and I know that you're so Lucinda's course is going to be is coming out. It is a phenomenal sort of every bit of information you need in terms of how to support either yourself or your children. You don't need a diagnosis for this. So tell me, tell us all Lucinda about this course that you have for ADHD and how you're kind of tackling that.
Speaker 4Yes, so it came about because we did a number of local workshops. I've done a few with you in the past, but specific ones on ADHD, And they were sold out within a couple of hours each day. time. And we felt we needed to reach more people. And we were getting inquiries from all around the world for this. So we just felt we needed to get this into online course content so that it could be shared with more people and more people could be empowered and educated. So it's going to be, we've just been doing the recording. So it's six to seven weeks, an hour a week. And it will be really going into the deep foundations of nutrition. So things like the importance of zinc and iron, the importance of the gut microbiome, importance of something called omega-3, how to build a pantry, you know, how to build that ADHD pantry. So your kitchen's really full of all the good stuff, how to tackle things like fussy eating, how to cope, you know, if you're having problems with medication, we've got a lovely part of it is part is with a brilliant integrative psychiatrist, who will be giving his input on the sort of integrated both medical side and nutritional side together. We're also going to talk quite a lot about genetics and how dopamine is made and norepinephrine. So there's a whole load of different areas. And I think what it's there for is to help anyone who's curious about nutrition, who may have been dabbling about the idea of seeing someone like NatureDoc for their nutrition, but they're not quite sure, or maybe they can't quite afford it. Because it does, involve various tests. And they just want those foundations, because they feel they can do something about it. And they just want knowledge, they want to be able to, you know, whether they're medicated or not, sometimes they're not coping with the medication, sometimes the medication is not enough. Sometimes they've decided not to go down the medication route yet. Sometimes it's because you can't access the medication, you know, there's there are shortages. So people are looking for things to help with their emotional dysregulation, they're helping with their ADHD burnout, as I said, so all sorts of aspects of ADHD. And what we're offering is a community. So everyone on the course will be able to have a sort of online community where they can ask questions and really learn from each other. And also, we're going to be doing a weekly Q&A for everybody on the course. So you can bring in questions, and I'll be there to answer them. So you will get my individual input. And then we'll also be offering one to one support from one of our ADHD coaches within the Nature.team. So that if you've got a specific roadblock that you want to get over, then they will be there for you. So that's really how we're structuring it. It's really exciting. So it's sort of like everything you need really supportive in terms of community, but also individual support.
Speaker 3Yeah, and all in one place. And I'm guessing Lucinda, if I feel that actually just my child maybe is not focusing as much or that they're that maybe I don't feel that they're optimal, in terms of their nutrition, then I'm also guessing that I don't, I don't need to even be thinking necessarily about that ADHD diagnosis. I will benefit a lot from the course anyway.
Speaker 4Absolutely. So if I was a child of say, a little, you know, two, three, four year old, who was just finding it really difficult to sit still, quite hyperactive, quite sort of volatile mood, etc. And you're thinking, could this be it? I just, you know, I just think the earlier you start, the better. And, you know, it's just only going to help your life, because you're going to get better sleep, you're going to get better mood, you're going to, you know, all of these things are so important. I just think it's all about family harmony. And so everyone can work together and find their own stride rather than think a lot of families literally walk around on eggshells around their child, because they're so volatile, because the anxiety is through the and why most people would come to see us. It's either kind of, they're just terrible appetite, very fussy eating, or it just could be this incredibly volatile mood. Or it just could be they're just not achieving at school. So you know, they're really falling back or behind, compared with their peers. And obviously, you know, we've had lockdowns, we've had all these things in the way. And I think a lot of people say, well, shouldn't we wait to see whether they catch up? And of course you can. But you know, feeding your children better is only going to be experience. And you might learn a thing or two about, you know, just little hacks in the kitchen of how to make things a little bit more nutritious.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I, you know, putting those preventative things in place is ultimately going to be much easier and much more effective than this sort of watchful waiting, which I think is quite often, certainly I come across with families where they've been given this sort of, let's just do a bit of watchful waiting, just means that you're just you're just sort of kicking the can until later on down the road. Whereas actually, if you're doing the preventative piece, you feel empowered already. And I'm guessing fundamentally, the outcome is going to be much better if you if you if your focus is preventative.
Speaker 4I think yes, I mean, you know, who knows, everyone's got their own trajectory in terms of their health, and that the way their mind works. But as I said, it's all about trying to un-act those really high ups and downs, you know, those really volatile moments and making the day easier for everybody, because that's usually why people are there crying for help. And, you know, I mean, a child, this is why, you know, so many lovely young girls get missed. And there's a big thing about masking these days is because they're often, you know, the ones that are academically quite able, and quite quiet, are missed for a long time. And so this is because they're not causing the problems in the classroom. They're not causing the problems at home. But even those ones, I find the little girls are often perfect angels at school. And I think that's really important. And I certainly saw that with our kids. And, you know, it's something we had to really manage that sort of after four o'clock time. And I think a lot of it was about feeding them really well. And a number of our families, what they've done, especially if their kids are medicated, and they're not necessarily eating very much lunch, to almost give them a massive meal once they get home at around 4, 4.30, rather than to wait until something happens. Another meal later, because that's usually the most fractious time, it's almost time when they're most hangry, and they need the most nutrition. And so that's what a lot of people end up doing is they do some two main meals or such. Or they do a main meal then and then a snack later. But you know, and it really depends on you know, some just, you know, just homework is just too overwhelming to do, because they're and they just need a lot of decompression time. And the nutrition can really help with that. But also, you know, it's really important to have a good diet. And so there are other lifestyle things that you can do to with the decompression, you can have, you know, you can have weighted blankets, you can jump around a trampoline, you can do deep breathing, you know, you can listen to gentle music, there are all sorts of things that you can do to kind of decompress too. But I think if you've got enough food in your system, then it's going to be easier to decompress.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think that the course is just going to be packed with all of this incredible advice, and this, this support over the journey as well. You know, it's just so exciting, we will be sharing all of the details on this, because I think it is such an incredible course, that if you are have any sort of little irks or inklings that you know, some of these character traits that Lucinda has described for us, which let's face it is probably a lot of children, that is your two, three year old, or even your eight, nine year old, I think putting these strategies in place with the incredible support from Lucinda and her team. will be amazing. Lucinda, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. As always, it has been an absolute pleasure. And I certainly don't think it'll be the last time we will have you on, we will get you back again very soon.
Speaker 4Marianne, it's been an absolute delight. So wonderful. I love catching up with you. We've always done great workshops together. And it's just lovely to be back on the podcast again.
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