NPM Interconnections (US) – Episode 175: Randy Mann | esVolta

Welcome to the NPM Podcast. NPM is a leading data intelligence and events company, providing business development lead market research across the US and European renewable energy space. NPM supports over 350 development, investment, lending, advisory, and corporate firms by keeping them plugged into markets and opportunities. Not yet a subscriber? Go to newprojectmedia.com and click the demo page to arrange a brief walkthrough. Now on to today's podcast. Hello and welcome to NPM Interconnections Podcast. I'm Andrew Burns, your host for this week's episode. And today I'm going to be joined by the ES Volta CEO, Randy Mann. Randy, thanks for being here today. Thank you very much Andrew. Really happy to to join you this morning. Well it's an honor to have you and I'm excited to kind of discuss what it's like to be, you know, just a storage IPP and what is no doubt kind of a tumultuous time to be in the market. And I'm looking forward to kind of diving into some of the issues you guys are facing here today. But I guess to start for people who may be unfamiliar, you want to just tell me a little bit about your background and your path in the industry and then maybe some of the background of ES Volta and kind of what its focus is in the market. Sure. Well my background is really that I've been in the energy industry for I think 30 years now or something like that. I actually started out on the finance side. So, you know, had a little bit of a background in commercial banking to the IPP sector and then in structured equity type investments. Again, with a focus on energy and other types of infrastructure. So I really come with that kind of commercial and financing background. But I've been in, you know, as I said in the energy industry for, you know, several decades now over that period of time. I've really had an opportunity to focus in on, you know, kind of the renewable energy and energy transition sectors. So I've done a lot in the wind energy space, the solar energy space, a little bit even in the microgrid world. And then, you know, now with the ES Volta in the storage space. Excuse me. And, you know, really the genesis of ES Volta is that we started the business back in 2017. So just about eight years ago now. And really the idea was that we could see that energy storage was going to be instrumental to, you know, the future of the power grid. And really was a transformational tool that could help us, you know, deal with the retirement of fossil fuel assets, the advent of intermittent renewables. And, you know, the volatility that we were starting to see on the grid. And really expected that energy storage would continue to decline in terms of its cost curve, continue to improve in terms of its performance attributes and start to become, you know, a core component of the electric grid. And that was, I think for me, a little bit informed by my experience with microgrid. So I had been working, you know, with microgrids where storage is obviously a key tool to stitch together resources like PV and gas generation in order to create, you know, a seamless 24/7 type of power grid. And when you're doing that on a microgrid basis, you know, we viewed ESVOLTA as being able to help do that on the macrogrid basis. And so, you know, that was really the genesis of the business. At the time, we were a little bit early in, you know, in the energy storage space. Most of the other folks, you know, were focusing on solar plus storage at that time. But we really saw, you know, energy storage directly connected to the grid as being maybe the most efficient and best way to bring the capabilities of storage, you know, to solve the problems of the power grid. Yeah, it's really interesting that you guys have sort of been in this space for that long. I was going to say, you mentioned that you were a little, as I was going to say, it's pretty long tenure for a storage specific IPP. So, you know, it probably helps, you know, now, though, to have, you know, that establishment when you have so many new entrances into into the space. And I know that you guys are essentially operating today as a, basically a storage exclusive IPP, which is an interesting business model, even now, that I imagine comes with, you know, both benefits and risks. You want to talk a little bit about kind of that philosophy and sort of what the headwinds and the tailwinds, a storage IPP faces in 2025? Yeah, I mean, one thing that occurs to me is I say this to people a lot that, you know, when we started the business to today, our basic strategy hasn't changed one bit. In the sense that we, you know, started out as a front of meter, utility scale, storage focused IPP, and that remains our strategy today. And I'll explain that in a second. Everything else about the industry has changed over the last eight years, right? So, obviously, there's been a lot of change in terms of, you know, what the market looks like and the like. But the basic strategy hasn't changed. And it's really because like I said, I think when you put storage directly connected to the power grid, it opens the capability of that storage asset to solve all the grid problems. And it does so in a really efficient way. And so, you know, we just had a view that, you know, rather than necessarily having to couple with, you know, another generation resource or with the load, you know, we like the approach of connecting directly to the grid and having that kind of pure play focus. And to be honest, you know, in building a business, having that type of focus is really important. Especially in the early days when you're a small company, you get pulled in lots of different ways, lots of different ideas, perk up. But if you don't keep yourself and your team, you know, focused on the mission and the market and really developing deep expertise in that sector, you know, you'll struggle. And so, you know, our company really over that last eight years has built, you know, a deep set of expertise across the full storage value chain. Well, that's from, you know, development to design, to engineering, to construction, to finance, to long-term asset management, and operations, and ownership. And, you know, that integrated set of expertise where all of those teams work together and really understand, you know, what it takes to develop and deploy and optimize, you know, storage asset effectively on the grid for our investors and our customers is what makes us, you know, good at what we do. And so, you know, that's why we focus in that way. I mean, I would say that, you know, there's both headwinds and tailwinds to storage and to being a storage IPP, and there has been since, you know, since day one when we started the business. But I think, you know, it's mostly tailwinds right now, like we actually feel really good about where we are. And I think, you know, being an energy storage IPP basically means that we are long-peaking power at a time when the country is short-peaking power and getting shorter, right? So, if you imagine, think of all the load growth that we're seeing, what that does is it stresses the grid because it stresses the need for power at peak times. And energy storage is a great resource to be able to make sure that you can provide, you know, reliable power at peak times. So, that's what we do. And I think that's, you know, that's the big tailwind. Is that, you know, there's this market demand that we're feeding into. Yeah. Obviously, you know, the investment tax credits and, you know, our whiff is well into the 2030s. And so, we have, you know, federal support. We also are seeing, you know, support at the ISO levels where storage is being treated fairly in those ISOs for the most part and, you know, enable to provide its capability into the markets. I think the big tailwind, you know, which I'm sure we'll talk about is just, you know, the supply chain and the transition from China that's going on. But I think that's one where, you know, we're well across and I think, you know, see as a challenge, but something that we'll be able to address here over the coming years. Sure. Yeah. I want to dig a little bit into that. I just came back from a storage focus conference, you know, over in grapevine with with interstellar this week. And that was kind of one of the big discussing point. A lot of things that you mentioned there. But, fiat was, of course, one of the big discussions and Chinese supply and things of that nature. And I do think it's kind of hard to discuss some of the, you know, if you want to talk about headwinds for storage without sort of touching on fiat and the impacts that that could have on the storage market here in the US. Now, my understanding is that based on the conversations I've had is that it might be a little bit tougher for storage to adhere to those requirements than say solar just based on the amount of domestic supply that is available for, you know, between the two. And then I know that I have talked to some storage developers who, you know, have expressed some concerns about the quality difference between domestic supply here versus, you know, what you obviously, the much more established Chinese manufacturer. So, I guess to boil it down, like, do you want to talk a little bit about what you consider to be maybe the biggest issues on the horizon with fiat. And then if you have a, feel like you have a good grasp on what those are going to be or if there's still kind of unknowns that you're waiting on in terms of guidance. And, you know, just kind of how ESFULT is going to go about sort of trying to be compliant with, you know, obviously, what you're understanding of other policy is that this, this present date. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot there, Andrews. Maybe you see if I can break it down into a couple pieces. Sure. One is, I think that you're, you're 100% right that, you know, the transition away from China for battery equipment is a significant transition. That's that's where, you know, the vast predominance of battery manufacturing is today. And, you know, there's high quality product coming out of China that, you know, that meets our needs. It's really just undeniable. I mean, they've, you know, spent a lot of years and a lot of effort and a lot of capital to build, you know, factories that serve, you know, that need and technology that serves that need. So, when we talk about transitioning away from that, you know, to non-Chinese markets and US supply, you know, that's going to take a minute and it will take a minute to scale up and to, you know, to reach the proven level of capacity that, you know, that we're all looking for. So, you know, it's, it's not a, it's not a flipper switch type of transition that will take some time. And, and I think truthfully, that transition has been happening for some years now. So, even back under, you know, under the Biden administration, they started to put, you know, forward-looking tariffs on Chinese battery supply as a way of, I think, encouraging domestic, you know, domestic manufacturing, which we'd all, which we'd all up to see. And I think Fiat could just kind of spurred that a little bit faster. And, and so, you know, we are, we are expecting and seeing, you know, US supplies starting to come to the fore. I think they're, you know, the way it works is essentially, it provides a bit of a roadmap for how to get from, you know, what was essentially fully Chinese-supplied industry to, you know, what I think will become, you know, a non-Chinese-supplied industry over the next couple of years. First is that there is, you know, this safe harbor sort of position where projects that are already in construction have, have certain exemptions from, you know, those supply restrictions. And then it was sort of a sliding scale, you know, over the next couple of years, as Chinese content is meant to, you know, meant to decline. And so, you know, what looks, what that looks like for us is the ability to continue to use Chinese supply for the projects that we've already got, you know, got going here, but then for really that kind of next, you know, set of assets, be working with, with other suppliers. And we're seeing already, you know, the Koreans as well as, you know, folks like Tesla, you know, influence in others, you know, starting to build out their supply chain, really, to support that. I'm pretty optimistic that by, you know, 27, 28, 29, you're going to start to see, you know, significant amount of, of non-Chinese supply, you know, starting to fill that, to fill that gap. Okay, yeah, that's kind of an interesting timeline there. And, you know, it's worth mentioning that obviously it doesn't really have to be domestic supply, to be fiat-compliant, it just has to be basically non-Chinese, right? It's kind of, I mean, there's also, you know, there's, there's sort of blending strategies that I think some of the, you know, the OEMs will be following to manage that, you know, transition. There's also, of course, you know, a control aspect of this, you know, that has to do with, you know, with data and control and making sure that our, you know, greatest kept safe. And I think that's really where, you know, the guidance can come to the fore and be helpful. And so, you know, we, we expect that that guidance is being worked on, should come out relatively soon. I don't know what the right, you know, ETA is for that. But I think, you know, that's, that's really the next step, just to make sure that we know, you know, from a control perspective and, you know, compliance perspective is actually what we need to incorporate into our, you know, into our supply contracts. Definitely. And, you know, what, like I mentioned, is just at that conference and, and one of the things that it seems like people are talking about a little bit more. And I'm curious, sort of what your outlook on this is sort of this idea, this exploration of alternate chemistries or alternate technologies, you know, in addition to lithium ion. I know that sodium ion was one that was kind of, I feel like talked about the most during that conference that I was there. And I've seen some deals kind of being made in, in, you know, recent times on, on the sodium ion front. So I'm curious like, you know, whether it's, it's that or other technologies or these things that you're kind of starting to looking at, look at it and like, what are sort of the, the things that you're way whenever you decide whether you want to stick with lithium ion or maybe experiment a little bit with, with some of these other options that are starting to pop up. Yeah. I mean, I think I would probably say we're not in the business of experimenting, right? Look, we're, we're an IPP providing, you know, energy infrastructure to our customers and to the grid that really needs to, you know, be proven and reliable and fanatable. And so, you know, proven and reliable and fanatable is really the, you know, the baseline where we start. And then obviously, you know, economics. But, but having said that, and so, you know, so, so 100% of the projects we've done so far and what we've got in construction are teed up for, you know, next set of construction is, you know, LFP with the Mion battery technology. And even within that, you know, we're still seeing continued technology improvement and evolution, you know, pretty rapidly as the vendors go from, you know, version one to version two to version three. We're seeing, you know, higher energy density, reduced footprints, improved performance, improved degradation, improved cost to, you know, to shift and install. So, so we're seeing even within, you know, LFP with the Mion continued improvement in the technology. We are also at the same time, you know, talking to non with the Mion battery vendors. In fact, you know, we've recently run a little bit of an RFP. I'm, I'm due to get a briefing in my next management meeting, you know, in a week or so here. So I can circle back and give you more after that. But I think, you know, we are definitely, we are, we're interested. We're seeing things like you said, you know, sodium ion starting to look pretty real and and and look like they may have, you know, some advantages in terms of in terms of things like degradation, in terms of things like, you know, how do you manage heat and and and so, you know, we're pretty optimistic that over the next couple of years, we'll start to, you know, layer in a few of those other technologies, you know, into our portfolio. And, you know, again, it's really about making sure that we build a safe, reliable, predictable and economic system, you know, for ourselves, for the investors and our customers. And so just as soon as that happens, I think we'll, you know, we'll be ready to participate in that part of the market. Okay. Yeah. I think it will be interesting to see, sorry, how the economics evolve on some of those other industries, for sure. So you know, it's really interesting. Like, storage is, it's a big part cat-backs, but obviously there's a big part op-ex. Yeah. Yeah. You know, round trip efficiencies and degradation. And you have to really, and then, you know, availability of finance and cost of financing. And so it's a multi-variable, you know, set of assumptions that goes into your performance and figure out, you know, which technology is best. And, you know, that's the complexity that makes this industry pretty fun. Sure. Yeah. That's interesting to mention that because that was something that I can remember who it was. That was something that the, at the, at the conference they mentioned was just that the Chinese manufacturers had really kind of nailed the cat-backs piece, but there was still kind of room for growth in the, on the op-ex side. And you know, that, you know, that's kind of some of these things were popping up. So that'll be definitely interesting to see. It's a certainly interesting time to be in the storage space, for sure. I know that you mentioned earlier that, you know, you're starting to see some, some kind of some cooperation and positive moves with some of the ISOs. And I think that's kind of interesting. We are definitely seeing some more storage sort of make its way into the, the non like storage-focused markets that are Kaiso and Texas obviously. So, so for, he's voltage, you want to talk a little bit about how much of your focus is on sort of those established markets versus some of these areas that are, you know, newer to storage relatively speaking. Yeah, for sure. So, right now, our portfolio, you know, in operation and in construction sits in, in Kaiso and Irkham. And I think it's really, you know, what you just mentioned, that those are the most mature markets for storage. It's where storage has been, you know, most economic and supported from a policy perspective over the last, you know, eight years as we've been, you know, as we've been developing this business. But we also have a very significant development pipeline of projects in the work, particularly, you know, interesting. We like the Desert Southwest where there's a ton of load growth and a real fundamental need for storage. So, I think you'll see, you know, that starting to show through, you know, in our inner asset portfolio here pretty soon. And then beyond that, you know, we are now developing some projects in both Kaiso and SPP, you know, where we see storage economics starting to be, you know, interesting. There've been a couple of, you know, PPA deals announced in Kaiso recently, some policy, you know, at the state level as well. And then SPP has, you know, a ton of renewables and so it's involved totally on the grid that, you know, where a fast responding capacity resource storage can be, can be helpful. So, you know, those are, I think, the next two markets for us that we're going to be, you know, building on our pipeline. And then, honestly, you know, every year, every six months, we sort of go through a review of each of the ISOs and regional markets and think about, you know, which is the next one for us to enter and when, and what are the conditions or, you know, no lack of conditions that we see that cause us to, you know, to go into those new markets. I think, you know, from an energy storage industry, I'm pretty sure that, you know, there'll be utility scale energy storage in all 50 states here pretty soon and, you know, so I think there are opportunities in all of those states. But for us as a company, you know, we really, we really, like I talked about at the beginning, we need to focus, focus our resources, focus our team. And because we're, you know, integrated IPP, we need to be sort of, you know, fully, fully, you know, ready to enter a market. So it's a big step for us. You know, that's why we've, you know, as I said, sort of started in my own SPP and then we'll see, you know, over the next year, what might be, you know, what might be the next market. But really trying to make sure that we, you know, go into markets where we see a significant opportunity for, you know, for large sales storage, you know, over the next couple of years. And that's what makes it, you know, worth the development spend and resource spend, you know, to put it in market. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And I kind of want to pick your brain a little bit on just because you've been in the, the, the, the, the Texas ERCOT market for so long, you know, you probably know it better than, than most in terms of batteries. I'm curious about, sort of the, the company's approach when it comes to, and maybe how this is evolved over time if it has, when it comes to going for bespoke contracts, off-take contracts, tolling agreements, things of that nature versus, yeah, obviously the, the pretty robust merchant storage market here and ERCOT and, you know, you, you know, fitting them into things like insular services. Do you have like a preference between your two? Do you have like a number that you try to hit or, or maybe just like an idea of what you want to hit between the two to, to sort of maximize both or, you know, what, how's that kind of working out for you guys, you know, these days? Yeah. Well, so I guess I would start with, you know, we really do view storage as a technology that's very well suited to participating in, you know, wholesale power markets, right? Because it can provide a lot of different, a lot of different services. It can provide those services at a really low marginal cost, and it can provide them, you know, with a high degree of quality and reliability. It's super responsive, and therefore, you know, combined sell energy and do, and do all the insular services. So it's a, it's a machine that, you know, works in a merchant solution. Um, you know, and I think it's not really, um, it's not really, given that basis of what the technology can do, you know, it's important for us to be able to, um, analyze and monetize and optimize, um, you know, our assets in a merchant solution. Um, and so we've built, you know, the internal infrastructure, uh, both hedging and analytics and, and optimization to do that, and I think to do it really well. You know, having said that, we, we really do like to have a predictable contract at cashflow. And, um, you know, we, um, we have signed, you know, quite a number of off-take contracts with utilities, CCAs, corporates, and also with, you know, hedge counter parties, to, um, you know, to manage the revenue and market risk of our assets. And, and, you know, really to help us to finance those assets on a more efficient basis. So most of the time, what you'll see us doing is, you know, either a fully contracted, um, storage asset look like a tolling type arrangement, or, uh, you know, a project that has some degree of contracted and hedged exposure and some degree of, you know, merchant exposure, which, which we then manage. Um, and, you know, we, on a project by project basis, we make those decisions really on our risk return basis. What's the, you know, what's the, what's the return that we think, um, you know, and then looking at various different sensitivity cases, you know, what's the risk and how does that optimize out. But then on a portfolio basis, we're really trying to build a business that's balanced across, um, you know, multiple different ISO markets. And that's why we talked earlier about, you know, the five markets that we're in today, as well as balanced across, you know, market versus contracted risk. And, and so, you know, we were always looking at like, well, what's the right thing for this particular project? What makes it work? Um, and then, you know, how does that change the overall portfolio composition of our business? And are we, um, you know, are we, are we happy with the overall risk, um, and, and turn that we're, you know, providing for our investors? So we have a pretty open, um, you know, open aperture, but, but, um, you know, it's really based on, like I said, a lot of investment in Intel and, um, you know, support on the, on the market, uh, optimization side, as well as then, you know, a pretty big, uh, origination and in contracting and set of experience, you know, worked with, with off-take contractors. And we mix those two together in a way that I think, uh, you know, drives a pretty good business. Yeah. And, and I'm kind of interested in, and hearing a little bit about, um, sort of how storage values have, have adjusted or, or change in Texas kind of, especially with, um, yeah, well, there's been such an explosion of storage, uh, in Texas over the last, you know, a couple of years, and, uh, you know, you guys have been in, in it for a lot longer than that, obviously. So I'm, I'm curious to see, uh, sort of your perspective on kind of how that has evolved, you know, with, you know, lots of storage coming in, but then also lots of load growth coming in as well, right? So I'm kind of curious about the balance there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really the, you know, that's the balance. I mean, that's what the wholesale power markets are supposed to create, is, you know, a balance between supply and demand and, and, you know, over time, obviously, uh, you know, getting that balance, right? I think what we've seen is, you know, in the last couple of years, and more storage coming in and, and demand growth being a little bit, uh, you know, slower than maybe we anticipated. A lot of that is to do with, um, you know, whether, uh, changes, right? Which are, which are, you know, going to fluctuate from year to year. But I think that, you know, price, um, performance in our car over 24, 25, um, was, was, was pretty, you know, was, was pretty benign. Um, and, and we just didn't see, you know, the big, uh, the big spikes in, in energy prices that you might, uh, look for when you're, you know, when you're, um, when you're managing batteries in that market, um, but I think that, you know, we don't make investment decisions based off of, you know, one summer or one month or one week of, of power prices. We're looking at, you know, long-term forward prices. We're looking at, um, you know, our view of, of load growth and, and resource, um, you know, growth in the, in the market. And then we're looking at, um, you know, what are people contracting, uh, you know, for assets app? And today, um, you know, we still see that as being, uh, supportive, um, in our car, um, and, and, you know, we have a project in construction in that market right now. Um, basically because we think that, you know, this, this load growth story is pretty real. Um, don't know if I could put a number on what that is. Right. Yeah. I don't know if you know, but certainly it's, it's not insignificant. And, you know, and, and so we do see the need for more storage in the market and, and to meet that coming load growth. Sure. I guess the, the last major thing that I'd be, I'm kind of curious about discussing here. It felt like we've been a lot of the main beats, but I know that, um, you know, we, we have seen, uh, some, uh, that project pickups and acquisitions from ESVELTS over the over the years. I think the most recent one that, that we reported on was the, the black mountain energy storage and, and calling back in March. But, um, so I'm kind of curious about your, your M&A appetite right now. Is, is, is the, are you still kind of interested in in picking these up on a, on a case-by-case basis, or is it, are you kind of primarily focused on, on the Greenfield pipeline these days? Like, what's, what's kind of, how do you kind of decide, you know, what makes a good, I guess, acquisition target, and how do you kind of decide when you're going to chase those versus, you know, just focus on the, the, the pipeline that you're building yourself? Yeah. So we are building a big pipeline ourselves, and I think if you ask our, you know, company, you know, kind of what's our DNA, we would say that we're, you know, Greenfield, uh, developers, and we, we love to do Greenfield development because I think then you really, um, you know, make sure you get the right asset and the right place at the right time, and then you, um, you know, you, you take a lot of pride in making sure that you're finding the best spots on the grid and, and bringing the forward of the most cost efficient and, you know, valuable assets. So that Greenfield, um, DNA that we have is really integral to who we are. But it also makes us, um, you know, a good acquire of projects in development stage, um, and we have done that, as you mentioned, you know, on a couple of, uh, a couple of occasions. And really for us, it's about, um, you know, finding development stage assets that, uh, compliment our existing pipeline, either, you know, geographically or regionally or, or in terms of, you know, their position and interconnection Q, and then making sure that when we do acquire those assets, we can add, you know, that he has both the value add to it, right? Whether that's, um, through our, you know, development skills, or whether it's through, uh, you know, procurement, or financing, or, or operations, or, or off-take contracting. So, you know, as we're adding, um, you know, M&A assets into a portfolio, we're really looking to then, you know, improve those assets through, you know, through ESVOLF the value add. And we're definitely open for business, um, you know, both on a Greenfield and an M&A perspective. And I think, you know, that's, that's, that's one of the things that, that lets you know that, you know, the energy storage industry is starting to mature, right? We're seeing, um, maturation of the financing markets for storage. We're seeing a maturation of the, um, you know, the off-take markets for energy storage. And I think also, you know, in M&A, the project level and asset level, um, you know, we, we see, um, some really good developers out there who are good at developing projects to a certain stage, but don't necessarily have the full IP infrastructure that we have. Um, and so, you know, they can be supportive of our business. And I think, you know, vice versa. Yeah. Yeah. They're interesting to, to kind of hear that. Um, I guess, uh, you know, it was, we kind of wrap up here with the, the, the last thing I, I would ask about is, um, just kind of the outlook on the next, uh, you know, when they were doing a 12 or 18 months, I know that you guys kind of put a, put a wrap on a, seem like kind of a round of projects over the summer here in, and the Texas market, which you reported on, but what does the next kind of stage look like for you guys as, you know, obviously as you kind of navigate some of the things that we've talked about here today? Yeah, well, I would say, you know, 2025 was, um, you know, a new flexion point here for ES Volta. Um, we've put, uh, you know, well over a gigawatt hour of new projects into COD this year. Um, and so, you know, that really moved us from mostly a development stage company to, you know, quite significantly an operating stage company. And so, um, you know, digesting those assets and making sure that we're operating them really, really well, which I think we are, um, you know, has been important for us and a key, you know, kind of an inflection point. As we look forward, we've got, um, uh, another project that we just, um, you know, started construction on in, um, in the Texas market. Recently, we've got a couple more projects that are right at the sort of pre-NTP level. So, you know, I, I could see us doing, um, you know, another gigawatt hour. So, um, you know, our assets appear, um, in that next, you know, in that next year period. Um, and then, you know, it's, it's really about, uh, continuing to push forward with our pipeline. Um, there's a lot of growth to come. I don't think, uh, the energy storage industry, you know, is, is, is sort of scratch the surface of the, uh, of the need that we, um, you know, that we see. And so, um, you know, we're really, what, what we're, you know, sort of putting the finishing touches on, on projects coming to COD. We're, we're in construction on the next set of assets. And then, we're really working on, you know, bringing forward those next assets to NTP. Um, and that's what it's all about. Sure. Sure. Well, Randy, I really appreciate your, your time today. And for joining us on the, on the podcast, I, it's really great to get the perspective of somebody that, uh, is, is, well, tenured in the storage space, you know, it's still a relative, are you calling me a whole name? I'm not, I'm calling you established. Oh, like, it's, it's nice to, to, to talk somebody that's, that's been in the industry that long, because like I said, you know, it's, it's very rare. Even for MPM, you know, we were established in 2019. It's very rare to, to speak to storage, company that's been around longer than we have. And, uh, you know, for, for, for you guys to have been in the space for, for as long as you have, I think that you bring a unique perspective that's been interesting to sort of, uh, pick out over the last, uh, half hour. So really appreciate your, your time today. I'm more than happy to do it, Andrew. And, you know, look forward to, uh, hope everybody has a great holiday season here coming up and best for 26. Absolutely.