Nowadays, celebrity is a state of mind

If anybody can be like famous, generally, lowercase f, what is the value anymore of being like capital F? And sometimes these lowercase f famous people can be richer than the capital F famous people. I think back in the day, the goal was money, right? The goal was to be the highest paid star in Hollywood, the highest, like the top of the billboard charts. But you don't necessarily need the fame to make the money anymore. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Friends of the pod, Bobby Finger and Lindsay Weber are here to talk about all things pseudo-celebrity. From stand-ups to reality television, the duo discusses why it feels like nowadays celebrity is really just a state of mind. Lindsay. Bobby, welcome back to It's Been a Minute. We're so happy to be back. It's been a minute, hasn't it? It really has. It really has. Today, we're talking about your new book. Your book. So excited. Can't believe it's real. So excited. Let's see it. Ah, stunning. Here's the book. I Want to Be Famous. Stunning cover. When Everybody and Nobody is a Celebrity. Congratulations. So happy to have y'all here. Thank you. Okay, so you all are known for co-hosting Who Weekly. And so I have to ask, who is your favorite who right now? I have one. Okay, Lindsay. It's Livia Jade. I've said this before to Bobby. Do you know who Livia Jade is? Yes, you do. Livia Jade. Isn't she the daughter of the lady from Full House whose mom tried to scam to get her into college? Exactly. And she did not go to college. She dropped out and she's more successful than ever. She's a vlogger and she has a new beauty line. And she used to date Jacob Elordi, but they really went together. I was going to say, she used to date Jacob Elordi. Yeah, and now she's maybe dating a guy who plays tennis professionally and he's hot. And we're so happy for her. I love that. I love that. What about you, Bobby? It might be controversial to call her a who, but I think it's interesting that she's a who despite winning an Oscar. It's Mikey Madison. Oh my God, controversial. Because I like that she's kind of unknowable. It's like, oh, she was the talk of the town for Onora. She won an Oscar over Demi. Demi Moore. Her next movie is the semi-sequel to The Social Network. And yet we still kind of know nothing about her. I know that she has two brothers that have red hair. She's a twin. She's a twin. That is literally, yes. She's a twin. And she's a twin. I think it's because, can I like, do you think it's because she- Make assumptions for me, please. Well, I mean, do you think you like her because she pushes back against the kind of like celebrity machine that- That is current. Like she goes on these silly shows and gives them nothing. Like she is kind of like Jeremy Strongian in that way. Like that's actually the nicest thing I could say about her. Where she really like gives her all to the character. And then like, she's like, you don't need to know me in real life. But because she's a woman, we really push hard, hard, hard against that. Like, is that what you see? I think about a lot of the up and coming. I mean, there's the whole thing in the book. There's, it could be very Demi to be mysterious. Like there's that. The end. Of that chapter about NEPA babies. I think it's the NEPA baby chapter where Michael B. Jordan is like, Denzel Washington told me that. Why would, why would you give away your life for free? They wouldn't, they're not going to pay to see you in the movies. Right. And it's like, there's a version of doing that that makes you mysterious and alluring and sexy. And like Michael B. Jordan is doing that. But like Mikey Madison, it just makes, it makes it kind of strange. And I think it's different for men than it is for women. Because like I compare her to Margaret Qualley, who seemingly everywhere, she's dating high profile men left and right. She's divorcing them left and right. I think it's impressive. It's impressive this day and age to be an aspiring movie star and to pull yourself back. I feel like that's like the goal for every, I mean, that's the goal for me. But even to attempt to try. My ultimate life goal is to never have to be on social media again. So I get it. I get it. I get it. There's a woman that is like, I find her to be incredibly charismatic. I mean, I love this woman. Her name is April Buckles. She's, it includes her based in Virginia. April Buckles. And I feel like I, of course, and I don't know if she's who worthy yet, but when I watch her TikTok, I feel like I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, oh my God. Which is a lot of his mom content, which like, I'm not a mom. I don't, it doesn't have anything to do with me. There's something about her. She's the star to you. April Buckles, I'm like, you are going to be on a reality TV show one day. I can feel it. I can feel it. I love this. I think we need to have a segment that's called Pitch Me an Influencer, where like me or Bobby needs to pitch another one of us. Like we need to like try and sell each other this interest. Because I think we have a baseline distaste for influencers, all of us really. So you really do need to be sold. You need to be sold your, the influencer to like see if you are into that or whatever. I love it. There's a real housewives in Richmond. Yes. Yes. Her. There's like the lonely girl influencers that I really like. The food influencers. Operation Nikki, one of my faves, where it's just like her cleaning her house all the time and organizing everything that she bought on Amazon. It's like sometimes they hit and they hit hard. Sometimes they hit. Sometimes they hit. Hard, hard, hard. And I'm like, oh, I get the parasocial thing. Because I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, what is April going to do for her sense first? It's April's birthday. How is she going to top the baby shower? How much Amazon crap is she going to fill her house with when she celebrates the next holiday? You're making me, now I'm like, I got to go check up on Operation Nikki to see what she's doing. Oh my God. Operation Nikki is a favorite. We love her. We are in an age now where it feels like there are more famous people than ever. Like it's more or less what your show is based on. And you speak to this idea so well in your book. Now that anyone can be famous and even sustainable. If you can sustain that fame to a certain like low level degree, people can remain sort of like vaguely famous for like decades maybe at this point. Yeah. What is the point of true fame today? And how do we define it? Basically, it used to be like if you go to a checkout counter at a grocery store and you see all the magazines, you see all the tabloids, you would see all these faces. And either you would know who they were, those are thems, or you would say, who the hell is this person? And that would be a who. We don't really have those types of magazines at grocery stores anymore. Now we've had to shift it. It's like, okay, you're at the airport. You see the magazines. There are still magazines that put people on the cover. Some of them you know and some of them you don't. And that's how we kind of came up originally with the who them distinction. It is a binary in the way where because celebrity is so fractured these days, we used to have ABCD list, right? And now it is do I know them or I don't know them? And it depends on the context. It depends on what you're. And that is where we are in celebrity right now. I love that. I love that. I love it. And so you all obviously focus on the who's. But I'm wondering, when I think of true fame, I do tend to think of them, sort of like that A list or even A plus list where you say their name and everybody knows who they are. But if anybody can be famous generally, lowercase f, what is the value anymore of being capital F? And sometimes these lowercase f famous people can be richer than the capital F. Capital F famous people. What's the utility of true fame anymore? Well, you make such a good point because the less famous you are, the more freedom you have to take more offers to do more things that famous people, real famous people, capital F famous people, thems, may not want to do or maybe look bad. You know, they make them look trashy, make them look less classy, make them look less rare and scarce or whatever. And these who's, they're not having to follow those necessarily. They're not having to follow those rules, which is like a freedom in a way. And I think. Well, I think about like Meghan Trainor. She sang a jingle, I think, for, appeared in, I think it was either dog food or cat food, some sort of pet food commercial recently. Sounds right. And I saw that and I was like, yeah. And I saw that and I was like, ooh, you know what I mean? Like pet food commercial singing. Like I was like, she's a young woman. I'm like, I thought that was something you kind of did in your 50s or 60s. You know what I mean? You're so right. Yeah. But then the second thought I had was that's probably a great check that she just got. And guess what? You already forgot what the product. Was like these things. They know that even if they do something embarrassing, the audience is kind of going to, is kind of going to forget what it was in a couple of days. And I think that like the, the ultimate goal, I mean, I think I do. We've been thinking about this a lot, I think, since we have had to start doing more press and since like the book became in its, like was put in its finished state. But it's like, what is the value of being super famous? Like, why do you really want to be a them? And I think for certain artists, like in certain creative fields, it's maybe like a freedom of. Of creative choice. Like you look at like the most, the most famous actors, they get to work with the directors. They, they want, they get to have more control on the sets, you know, like they have, they are at that level where they have a little bit more creative freedom. But I think back in the day, the goal was money, right? The goal was to be the highest paid star in Hollywood, the highest, like the top of the billboard charts, but you don't necessarily need the fame to make the money. You know, and I think that's what's, that's what's very strange. And that's just making. There's a lower bar to fame. Yeah, there's a lower bar. Because I think sometimes brands will say, we know this person isn't the most famous in the world, but their audience is like a very specific sector that like we want to speak to. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think about the back to those ads that like, I think Julie Roberts maybe and definitely George Clooney would do in other countries. Oh, yeah. Like it's like they would reference that in the book, right? Yeah. They do commercials in Japan or in Europe and they like only air there and it's first stuff that they would never sell. of the United States, like stuff that you can probably buy today on TikTok shop. No, and now with the internet, it's like you can't escape those. Like goggles just went viral. It was like their secrets came out. But people also, I think now it's so different where we see them so differently. They're now like delightful. I don't know. Like it was so funny to watch the lady. Yeah, like the Dunkin' Donuts ads that Affleck and his entire family. He would never do that in the 90s or the early 2000s. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever. We're so capitalistic. We're so focused on grinding and girl boss and whatever is that we even celebrate our celebrities kind of making money or something. I think for a time in the early days of the big thems doing sponsor content or like quote selling out, there was something maybe a little bit charming about it. It was like, wow, they're doing something that they never would have done before. It was almost like we felt better about ourselves because we were like, they're humbling themselves by stooping this. Oh, but now it's not really stooping low anymore. It's just it's the level playing field. It's what everyone's doing. And I think that because of that, I think Lindsay's right. I think we're going to start seeing a little bit less of that in the near future. Don't go anywhere. If you're casting a movie in 2026, the casting director, the producer is going to look at the young stars and see who has higher follower counts. We've got more coming up after the break. You all do such a wonderful job on your show of of capturing like that, that like the kinds of ephemera that we're talking about, you know, this detail about this particular up and coming celebrity. Someone's a backstory that informs a relationship that they're in now. And like all these like wisps of information that that really like shape the entertainment industry. I think part of the reason it feels so good to listen to your show is that you're capturing a specific moment so well. And the listeners, you know, we savor it because we know that the moment won't last. Like you said, some of these who's they go in one ear and out the other. But how do you distill something so ephemeral into a book? Great question. I think it was about. I mean, that's the thing. The thing about the book is like when you read it, it doesn't feel like here today, gone tomorrow. It feels like a really. I hope so. Great study on fame and how it's constructed. I think we set up that it's like history. We set up that we're going back in time. And we are setting up that we exist in this specific moment. And I hope that we will read it in the future. They're under. They're able to see that the moment that we are talking about, which is like this kind of not to bring them up again, but like kind of mid to late stage Kardashian era celebrity. I always I they're kind of the determiner there. I always like on the scale of one Kardashian to a million Kardashian. We're kind of like in the fleeting era of Kardashian, maybe. So I do wonder. I do hope that when people. Look back on it, they, they see it as a very specific time, you know, that we're, that we're talking about, but that's how we felt when we were writing it too. And I don't think we could have written it before this kind of 10 year anniversary of our podcast, because our podcast is designed to be something that you listen to and forget. And so it was sort of like, well, how do we make it, how do we make it a little bit more memorable, a little bit more meaningful. And that was sort of like to explain how we got. Where we are right now and what comes after that's another book. I love that. I love that. I mean, you did such a great job. Like I said, distilling of distilling all of this stuff into a book and also doing it together, even in the audio book, like you switch off narrating different sections and sometimes even switch off mid sentence, which is very charming and surprising because I'll be like used to one of you talking and then the other one starts talking. Yeah, we keep you awake. You got to stay awake. Each essay, each chapter is kind of an essay and a topic. And we kind of assigned each other what. Who felt like it was a good place for someone to start or they had ideas to start out with. And then that person kind of wrote what is maybe the skeleton. And then we pass them back and forth until literally you could not tell who had written what. And that's how I think we kind of knew we were nearing the end of the writing because it was like enough had been blended together where this is how kind of our episodes are, where it's like we do one and we kind of forget what we said. And that's how we know it was a good episode where it kind of like blends into this thing that then kind of whiffs away. Okay. So you all have built your careers on dissecting fame. But every once in a while, a celebrity wants to get in on the action. I want to talk about something that has been chatted about a lot recently. Pete Davidson. Who you all talk about in the book. Pete Davidson had some choice comments recently about influencers sneering at the idea that influencers bring. Tens of millions of dollars a year, essentially for, his words, doing nothing. What do you make of these comments, especially from Pete Davidson, of all people? It's crazy that somebody who dated Kim Kardashian is out here saying famous for nothing, but whatever. It's like, wow, we're really not like remembering history. We're really not like remembering things, aren't we? We're really not. This is not. We're not remembering things. Yeah. He is a comedian. He's in movies. But he got famous for playing characters that are kind of just him. So it's interesting that he's like, they don't do anything. And it's like, well, there's an argument to be made that your comedy, the thing that made you famous to people, is just being yourself on camera. And yes, you did it on Saturday Night Live and not on a TikTok feed. But there's really very little difference there. Yeah. If you think a little hard. And it's like, it's a message that could be interesting if it were delivered by. Maybe a better messenger. But because it's delivered by this one, you're sort of like, shut up. You know, it's like, I don't want to hear it. Getting us to defend influencers, too. Like, you have to be some real, doing some real nasty work. Like, that's how crazy I feel. Like, that's how poorly he delivered this sentiment. And he made it very gendered. Very gendered. Mm-hmm. It reminded me, actually, of a chapter in your book on celebrity romance. And you talk about, like, sort of, like, how, whose, and whose get together and what can result from that. Them's and them's get together and what can result from, and what can result from that. Like, obviously, couples like Bennifer and, you know, and, oh, my gosh, Brad and Jen. Like, you know, these couples where two superstars get together and everyone is like, whoa. But Pete Davidson is somebody who specifically has benefited from the who-them relationship. Please, I mean, you all detail it so well in the book. Please talk to me about that. Like, Davidson, when he dated Ariana Grande, was when we first discussed kind of the who-them dichotomy. Like, what happens when a who dates a them. And there's a lot there. There's the, like, wish fulfillment of culture, seeing somebody who they determined to be, like, an underdog in the fame situation date somebody who has made it, is A-list. There's something charming about that. It's almost like a fairy tale story, right? Well, it's like, like, when you all opened the book talking about Meghan Markle. Meghan Markle and Prince Harry. Totally. And, like, that's the ultimate who-them. Exactly. And then there's kind of the power imbalance that you're looking at. And I don't mean, I just mean, like, fame level. Like, it's not even gender aside. It's literally just about somebody is more famous or more, and honestly, more rich than the other person. And, like, does it, and what our real question was, does that make the person who's a who more famous? Does that, like, raise their fame level? And sometimes. And sometimes it does. For them, a little bit less famous. Like, does it. Sure. Does it devalue them? Does it dilute their brand? Or something? Mm-hmm. And I think, I think it kind of, it's on a case-by-case basis. But ultimately, I think in the short term, it's great for both parties. Right? Because it makes, it makes the, let's say, the Ariana Grande in the equation seem a little more interesting. Like, Ariana Grande, especially at that time, you know, top of the charts, she could not release a song that would not be on the top ten on Billboard. Yeah. If you watch Saturday Night Live, you might be like, wow, I know him. And if you don't watch Saturday Night Live, you're like, maybe I've seen the name. But there's some, there must be something interesting about him if he's dating Ariana Grande, right? Like, it, it works both ways kind of in that short term. But then over time, you're sort of like, what are we doing here when they break up? It's sort of like, are we going to forget about them? Or are they going to sort of remain? I think that the thing about that relationship that was really sticky and that helped both of them was that it was kind of the origin of the BDE conversation. Yes. And without the BDE conversation, I think we may have just forgotten that it ever happened. Yeah. No, that's a really, really, really good point. It created this entire cultural touchpoint that I can't really explain here. That kind of had nothing to do with her. And it had a lot to do with Pete, and it had a lot to do with his dating history. And that's why I thought it was so interesting in this Variety article. He's like, oh, you know, people are so going on and on about my dating. Like, so many celebrities date other people. Like, I don't get what the big deal is. And it's like, well, you kind of, like, made it the entire thing for a while, right? Like, that was your brand. Yeah. I was going to say, I don't know if – I'm not sure the public knows that much about or can recall that much about, like, Pete Davidson's individual roles. Or could name, like, three movies or TV shows that he's been in. But they know who he is. They know who he is. They know that he dated Ariana Grande. And they know he dated Kim Kardashian. Like, I mean, I don't know. That's why I felt like these comments were really rich coming from him. And before, he was dating Ariana Grande. Who was he dating? Larry David's daughter. Right. Oh, my God. Yes. Cassie David. Yeah. I mean, I do feel like he's like, yeah, why am I known for my dating when no one – their celebrities are it's like because your dating is more interesting than your work and that's the danger and like all of these people that you're dating create a more interesting narrative than the work that you're doing whether or not you're good in the work or not it's going to be more memorable if you have an interesting dating life and that's just a way that celebrity and culture works and like it is just funny that now he's like pushing back on that he's like i've done this for years and years and years i'm like yeah but it's not about how long you've done it it's about the stories that you're telling and like unfortunately the stories of your personal life are more compelling to the general audience absolutely you know i mean to that end that makes me think about um i think that there's like a a big change that's happened in culture in the past 20 years that has primed people even more i think to be very into uh the personal lives of not just celebrities but regular interesting people um and that is the the the huge sea change that we had reality tv work kind of in many ways become in some ways the default entertainment honestly and like television uh you argue in your book that reality tv didn't just change our viewing habits but the nature of fame itself what did reality tv do to transform the game of fame forever wow it made it gave normal people it you didn't have to it's sort of like you didn't you didn't have to wear the training wheels anymore or something like you didn't have to 20 of the of the thems that we love today and a lot of the thems that we love today got famous in the 80s and 90s right like we're not minting as many monocultural thems um as we were back in the day like we're we're talking about tom cruise now and it's like wow i got a new york times alert that tom cruise's movie flopped and it's like there aren't many actors left whose flop would get a new york times alert other than tom cruise right but it's like back then you kind of had to prove it like someone like tom cruise who's slowly working his way up to fame right like he's in small movies then he's in slightly bigger movies then he gets his breakout role then suddenly he's the biggest star on the planet or something reality was sort of like we can just introduce random people on television they will have a built-in audience of tens of millions of people again this is back in the day when more people watch television together live and it's like suddenly they're everywhere and it and and in our in that chapter in the book it it shows that like it wasn't the first time that we were able to do something like that season of survivor that started this but it was kind of the second where it took them a little bit to figure out that like when we introduce this person on this gigantic stage even though we kind of know nothing about them there's a way to or there's a way for this celebrity to monetize this to turn this into their entire life like 25 years ago the expectation was more than 25 years ago when it comes to like the real world or something like that the really early reality shows that you on reality television have your fun and then go back to your normal job which is what most people who were on the real world back then did 100 and then there was the thing in survivor true truly i still can't believe it it still makes me feel like i'm going insane when i see him i'm like wait wait i can't be the same guy i can't be the same guy um and then at some point after survivor and elizabeth falarski turned into elizabeth hasselbeck married a football player goes on the view or whatever i think there was a broad shift we were like wait we can do something with these people and also it's cheaper to it's like cheaper to make the reality television than to like invest in a star yeah so it's like how can all of us benefit from this and it's like and cut to 25 years later when people go on love island or love is blind or any of these reality shows yeah bachelor they go in saying this is a means to an end and then i get to be famous well it's like why you know little kids growing up are like i what do you want to be when you grow up and they're like i want to be a celebrity i want to be a youtuber i want to be an influencer i want to be famous and it's like you hear that and you and it's specifically because of reality tv it's because they're seeing kind of people who make this their entire career you can be on the challenge for 20 years if you play it right well that reminds me of something i want to i want to read a quote from the book for you all that that really like blew my mind because when you bring up the challenges is so true like the challenge is still going by the way like people think the challenge and i thought the challenge is like the days of our lives it is like it is literally a general hospital it's like yes i mean but you say in in your chapter about reality tv stardom in our increasingly precarious job market where the number of reliable professions is dwindling at a rapid pace it's quite something that reality stardom is one of the few fields that seems to be getting more secure and i was riveted by this i mean i even think i just started watching next gen nyc um which i'm sorry what do you think i actually i'm loving it i i wasn't gonna like i was like at first i was like i'm not gonna watch this no people literally are loving it i know loving it but there's a there's a girl on there um her she's influencer her name is amira dispain and she is like a super popular influencer and uh doing a lot of like beauty and fashion kind of stuff and then she appeared on one season of um next gen nyc and now she's on the next season of celebrity traders and i'm sure she'll turn that into something else she's compelling and beautiful but like it there is kind of like a way to set kind of get into these systems and get like a steady job um and it's really yeah it's very very interesting uh to see but i wonder like why has reality stardom um become and remained so bankable i think well i i was just thinking about when you said this about the next gen person i was thinking about a who that we talked about on a recent episode because it's it's interesting that it's specifically reality shows reality dating shows and not necessarily reality shows but it's it's interesting that it's specifically reality talent shows and so it's like we talked about the suit debbie dawson a few weeks ago and she's the singer she has a she has like a handful of songs i'm completely obsessed with them i heard them for the first time because someone called her hotline about her and i was like she makes wonderful pop music and so you're looking into her and she was on america's got talent many years ago and then it took this long for her songs to sort of bubble up i wouldn't i wouldn't even call them truly bubbling up but she has talent she's a great singer she was on america's got talent singing a cover of dancing queen i think but like an acoustic beautiful cover and it's like here's someone who has kind of a traditionally marketable and um uh really really like instantly observable skill and that isn't what's bankable what's bankable is influencing and so it's sort of like i find that so weird where and also when you look in the history of american idol even it's like these people go on in front of the judges and they sing beautifully but can you name many american idol stars it's like there's kelly clarkson there's jennifer hudson and like like a lot of the ones that became famous they got they got famous in spite of not doing that well on the show well the reason they became like people personalities they become personalities not the traditional talent bobby the reason that is is because music is not monetizable like so many other things that's the main reason it's true it's like yeah you can be a beautiful singer you can sell you can release music yourself but we're not trained to buy music like that anymore we are trained to stream music and artists don't make money from that so therefore it is more lucrative to become like a vlogger or you know some other like skill that is in an industry where people are used to paying for that thing you raise such a good point too because it makes me think about um i so i well i don't know if you've ever seen vanderpump rules but i watched like the first most of the first i've seen the valley 10 seasons or whatever okay i actually do need to watch but there's like old vanderpump rules cast i think they did the first 10 or 11 seasons then they reshuffled the deck they did a new vanderpump rules cast with like people who are in their 20s and like early 30s now what's interesting to me about it is that the first era of vanderpump rules were people who are all kind of going for these like traditional they were all going for like they wanted to be models they wanted to be actors like you could watch the show and see that that was not going to happen for them for the most part and now the new people on the new version of vanderpump rules they now mostly seem like they are hoping to become influencers in some way yeah like the people who seem to have the most stability are doing only fans i mean i can't get into the only fans cousins because it's a direct but it's a direct patronage like it is it's a platform whatever people are using it for i know it's it has a x-rated uh kind of at its base it is a it is a platform for patronage and people pay you directly and support you and pay for your bills and that is crazy because that is more lucrative to these people than uh trying to be an actor trying to be a model trying to be anything at all it's like the tiktok tiktok and instagram follower counts it's not money but the follow is a sort of patronage too because the follow affects their bottom line whatever they get for their instagram or their tiktok yeah and it's like if you're casting a movie in 2026 the casting director the producer is going to look at the young stars and see who has higher follower counts and that sucks but it's like that is that is what um that is what matters right that's the monetizable thing you know it's the follower count don't go anywhere it's like you are choosing to be a stand-up someone to define who you are as a person almost and who you associate with And like Taylor Swift is like the emblem of that, right? We've got more coming up. after the break. You know, I will say there is somebody who is still currently very successful and making money from making music. And that's Taylor Swift. I mean, she's definitely reaching a new point in her career where the sheen of her stardom is wearing off, I think, for some of the masses. I mean, in my opinion, I kind of feel like there's a little bit of like, she and Drake kind of both suffer from this propensity for kind of dealing too much in the super stan hype and kind of playing to that base. And it kind of paints you into a corner. But I'm curious, what do you all think? How do you think that sort of her stan base kind of led us to this moment we're at right now? I mean, it's interesting because that chapter is a lot about, you know, stand-em as like community building, right? Where it's like, it's identity. It's like you are choosing to be a stan of someone else. And I think that's a really good point. Someone to define who you are as a person, almost, and who you associate with. And like, Taylor Swift is like the emblem of that, right? It's like, we're all disconnected. The internet brought us together. And with the internet, we created factions. And these factions are based around pop idols or actors or whatever, whoever you stan or whatever. And those are your people. And this is your thing. And I think for Taylor Swift, like, it helps that she's the monoculture, essentially. Like, your parents, like, don't listen to her music, but like, they know who she is, right? That's an incredible kind of brand recognition for someone, right? It's like, no one, for people who aren't even like consuming your product, know your name and say, oh, that's a famous person. Like, that's like, that is a marketer's dream, right? That is like the thing that they're all like looking for, I guess. And so it's just, it is one of those things where we take, we almost take for granted that Taylor Swift's music is something we all try. We all, we all attempt it and therefore hits the top of the charts. And also she, is like a recognizable face as well. And that kind of will remain forever in this way. The difference between like Taylor Swift stan armies 10 years ago and Taylor Swift stan armies now and any sort of pop person's stan armies is that they really do, in addition to being community building and just places for like-minded people to come together, they're, they kind of control the online discourse in a way that I think is undervalued. A smart thing Taylor does is you look at it and you're like, you're leaving these Easter eggs for people. Why are you doing this? And it's like, Because she knows that this small percentage of her fans will control the conversation. They will dominate the online space. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, these people, like, they help to preserve the star's legacy. Their stans are the keepers of the flame. But to your point about Taylor Swift being almost 40, though, like, this is the thing. Swifties, members of the Beehive, Arianators, and Barbs, they are all aging. As the stars are aging as well, right? And yet, many of these stans are still going strong online as, you know, the stars and their fans are kind of getting into or are already in middle age. And the Lambs, of course, I can never forget why I carry Lambs. I consider myself a Lamb. But there's, like, Lambs, things changed, like, with the Beehive and the Swifties. Things changed, right? Maybe this is a stretch, but I'm thinking about the Beyonce, the B-Day anniversary that just happened. The 20th anniversary of B-Day just happened. Yeah. And so she dropped. She dropped all this merch. And she dropped that much-lampooned, like, $900 box to put all of your Beyonce vinyls. It's like, to me, that's sort of playing at the aging stance. It's like, a 40-year-old can afford a $900 box, maybe more. $948 box. $948. A lot of people can't afford a $948 record box. But I also think that the aging 40-year-old stan is more likely to afford it than an 18-year-old one. And I think Taylor and Beyonce, these people are smart. I think they will figure out how to appeal to their aging stance as they themselves age. You know? Like, they'll figure it out. I mean, I guess the question is, is, like, we, us, millennials, Gen X, all the kind of people who are engaging in stan culture will keep doing this shit. The real question is, will younger people act like this? Is this how they'll treat their faves? I'm curious about that. Like, will they see what we're doing? Will they say, toxic, don't want a part of this, no thank you, not for us? Or will they. Well, from what I've seen so far, I don't think that's the case. I thought that maybe there was a chance for that a couple of years ago, and I think the behavior has not changed. And then Gracie Abrams appeared or whatever? Yeah, I think the behavior has not changed. A lot of people like her, and she definitely has stan. Same with, like, Audrey Hobart and, like, all these, like, other newer, um, Zara Larsson. Like, there are pop stars that have, that have, that also have stan-ums. I mean, this also is a pop music thing. This doesn't really extend across all genres, to be honest. I would. I want to close, um, by talking about the last chapter of your book. Last chapter of your book is dedicated to singer Rita Ora. And regular updates about what Rita's up to are often shared and discussed, um, in your podcast episodes. She's somebody who is still somewhat of an enigma to me. Um, but I learned a lot. I, I, I wonder, like, what is it about Rita Ora that captures where our society is now, with regard. With regard to how fame is created and, and maintained. And what might she tell us about the future of celebrity? Rita has been with us from the beginning, and she lasted 10 years with us. Still in the spotlight. Still going strong. Still an enigma. A lot of who's on the show have not. A lot of who's have come and gone. Rita started a who, she remains a who. But she is an enigma that kind of defines to us what being a who is in the good and the bad. We. We. Mostly are saying being a who is a great thing. Rita Ora defines that. Rita Ora is this, uh, kind of nebulous star where she does everything. So it's sometimes unclear to people what it is the thing that she does. And this is true for so many famous people. They are taking every opportunity, especially who's. That comes their way. They can be hosts. They can be models. They can be actors. They can be singers. They can do sponsorships. They can be entrepreneurs. They can do anything. They. They can do nothing at all. They can just be famous. They can just be influencers or whatever. And she represents that, that kind of nebulous fame level in that even though it's kind of unclear, the tabloids cover her as if she is the moment. She is the star of the moment. They. She is clicky as hell. They are following her around. And so we have been, you know, following her through the lens of tabloid journalism and the media for 10 years. And there has never been a week where there's nothing to say about what she is up to because. That's incredible. Because. Because of the type. Because of the type of kind of fame that she exudes, which I would say as a Who is like a very comfortable fame. Like she is like a working star. Like she is making money and she is doing whatever she wants. She's booked and busy. She's always busy. So you think there's just going to be like a future of more Rita Orris basically? Basically, yeah, I do. She started it. She was ahead of the curve. And I think for a time it was confusing to people because it was like, first of all, and again, confusing mostly to American audiences where it's like, who is this person that's kind of on the radio? But then she's also hosting this show and she's on the cover of the magazine, but she's not promoting music. So it's like, what is this? And now 10 years after the podcast started, I think the rise of influencer culture, the lack, the loss of shame, you know, the rise of like, kind of like the celebrity equivalent of like the gig economy where it's just like they are taking every job possible. It's like, this is becoming the norm. And so Rita is a little bit, Rita is less out of place than she was 10 years ago because kind of everyone's doing what she's doing. She just kind of started it. I have one question to ask, though, that we always ask everybody. What is the most sincerely unhinged thing that you believe? Here's the most unhinged thing that I believe because it's the best thing that I can muster right now. Yeah. That I left the stove on. Like you think that you left the stove on right now. Yeah. My anxiety manifests and I left the stove on. Doesn't matter where I am. Doesn't matter when it was. I turn on the stove. I left the stove on. And then if I tell someone that they're like, you're unhinged. You haven't cooked in two days. So that's my most unhinged belief. Wow. That's beautiful. I love that. I love that. You know what I think is unhinged? I really do believe that JFK was not killed. I've really come around that. Wait, not killed? What do you mean? Not killed? I think he's, I don't know if he's dead now. You think he faked his death? To go where, though? I didn't know you thought that. That's iconic. I think he was alive for a while after that. Just running around. Wait, doing what? Running alive and well? Yeah, just like doing stuff. I do believe a lot of these things about fake celebrity deaths that are not real. Wait, who else? I don't know. Like the Elvis thing is compelling. Oh, my God. Sorry. I just, I really just, I really sometimes do. I sometimes think, I don't know. Amazing. I find it hard to believe that these people were killed. Yeah, I saw the movie Elvis. By Baz Luhrmann, too. But I'm just saying, it feels a little out of propaganda. Anti-drug propaganda. I'm kidding. That was Bobby Finger and Lindsay Weber, hosts of the Who Weekly podcast. If you want big name interviews with people shaping news and culture, check out NPR's Newsmakers. Guests like Zoran Mamdani, Robbie Hoffman, and Chloe Mao take on tough questions about their place right at the center of the moment and what it's like to be on the inside. Check it out now. NPR's Newsmakers. Wherever you go. you get your podcasts.