Notes on Addiction, Dating & Contentment

Season 2, Episode 19. Carry shells with Lauren Windle. Notes on addiction, dating and contentment. So I started to be offered drugs and I didn't see any reason why I wouldn't try. I was just, I'd had the talks in school and I knew drugs equals bad. But you know, I'd had many talks where something equaled bad and I found it if okay, I don't really know what to do with that. So I didn't really understand the consequences. But the thing with addiction is it's just the great leveler. There is no socio-economic group that is more predisposed to addiction than another. There's no gender that's more predisposed to it than another. It's open to everyone. You know, it's an equal opportunities problem and that's why I find recovery quite so refreshing because you can have a celebrity sitting next to a rough sleeper. He has to be this, he has to be that. You know, I couldn't date someone like this. I couldn't date someone who has a job like that or speaks like that. Whatever it is, right? Actually, you could be disqualifying a man who has got God's heart for you. Well, hello and welcome back to Carry Shells. I'm Katherine Grimes. I'm your host and it is amazing to have you listening in today. This is a very special space for you to connect with other amazing women of faith to be encouraged and to be empowered, listening to their stories but also looking for the fantastic stories that God is writing in your life circumstances. So I am so excited today to have a beautiful guest, Lauren Windor. Hi, Lauren. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to it. It's exciting. So Lauren Windor is an author, presenter, journalist and public speaker. But in her words, her proudest accomplishment to date was on the 22nd of April 2014 when she got clean and sober from a cocaine and alcohol addiction that almost stole every good thing from her life. Since then, she's become passionate about helping others find recovery. She's also enjoyed dressing like the late Queen while sitting at KFC. And like most of us, she loves curling up with a classic Disney from time to time with a predictably happy ending. So welcome, Lauren. Yeah, I do love a Disney. What's your favorite Disney film? Well, it's a tough one, but as a child, I went back again and again to sleeping beauty. I was a. I think you see, I use to be in the beast. I thought that you were going to go that way. Yeah. Yes. I think it was the argument at the end between the fairies over the pink and the blue dress. I was quite drawn because I love, as you can see, I'm wearing pink and blue today. So, you know, but Belle, Belle is a fabulous character, isn't she? She is. Do you identify with Belle personally, Lauren? I like her bravery. I think she's brave. And she loves books. I love books. Yes. So maybe I do. Maybe there's something more there than I realised before. Yes. Yes. I do admire Belle as well. I think she's probably my second favourite. So. So, Lauren, I do also have to ask. You have quite a quirky personality that comes across immediately, and I love that. And I actually read online that you had enjoyed dressing up as the late queen sitting, eating some KFC. So just tell us a little bit more about that to give listeners a feel for quite how quirky your character is. Yeah. Well, I used to work in tabloid journalism, and I got the absolute honour of being the features writer who used to try everything out. So almost like if you've seen How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days, the main character in that Andy, she's like the "How to Girl" for this fictional film. I love that. I love that. I think. Yeah. And I got to do that. So I tried out Victoria Beckins' diet. I ran an investigation on the amount of air in Chris Packets. I did an investigation on jewelry where I bought rings from 10 different high street shops, and I wore them without taking them off for a week, exercising, sleeping, everything, to see which would turn my fingers green. Oh! I tell you about the longevity of lipsticks, the longevity of nail polishes. I did like all of this different stuff. But one of the things that we did was the queen was maimed The Country's Best Dress Woman by Tatler. And I think that would have been in 2017, 2018 maybe. So I thought, well, look, if she's got the best style, I'm going to dress like her for a week. And I did. And I had a fabulous and incredible stylist who managed to match the queen's outfits with my outfits. And she sort of picked things up off the high street, even though obviously the queen has got these phenomenal designers who create outfits for her. So we managed to match them. And yeah, and I went to KFC, or possibly a building site at one point. I took the tube dressed as the queen. Wow. I couldn't have any corgis, but I did have two toy dogs that I carried around. I was going to say, did you have corgis? I mean, your job sounds like the dream job, Lauren. Oh, it was so much fun. I plan to change quite a lot, even in those years, as 2016 to 2018, I did that. And budgets have changed. And what people are looking for online has changed. They're very high investment pieces to do. And these days, things tend to be a little bit generated and consumed a little bit more quickly. But what an absolute honor to be told, like, great, come up with some crazy ideas. I mean, the stuff that we shelved was even crazier than the stuff that we did. I wanted to test out, you know, the sort of strip eyelashes that you can buy. Yes. I wanted to test them out in a wind machine. You know, those official sort of windmachic goodness. But there's only two in the country and they're like for real research, for scientific research, and the cost of hiring them from these universities and these institutions was really prohibitive. So we didn't manage to do that sadly. But that would have generated some brilliant content, I think. Yes. I had some quite unique content, definitely. So talking of unique content, Lauren, your story is quite remarkable. It's got lots of different facets from it. I'm going to try over the next hour to unpack as much as we can from you. Well, we've got you. So would you set the scene for us by taking us right back to your origins? Just tell us a little bit about your childhood. Did God feature in that? And what was most important to you as a girl? Yeah. So I was raised in a Christian house. My mum was a Christian and she took us to church every Sunday, more or less. And church was a really big part of her life. And therefore a big part of our lives. I didn't really like church. I found church really hard work and didn't find a solid group of friends there like some children do, didn't enjoy the Sunday scores. And particularly when I got to the teenage years, I found, I think that this has changed. I'm involved in a bit of youth work and there's a youth conference that I get stuck in with every year these days. So whilst I'm not a youth minister or even particularly called to focus on youth, I've got a rough idea of what goes on these days. And I do think that this has changed. But back then it felt like the only thing you were told is don't have sex, don't drink alcohol and don't smoke cigarettes and then you're a good Christian. And there was no talk of character and there was no talk of anything wider or building relationship with God or anything like that. It was just here and three demonstrable ways that teenagers mess up and you will be judged if you get those wrong. And I just found it to be a really oppressive environment and I also didn't find the people who were sending those messages to be particularly admirable or were the of my sort of striving to be like them. You know, and I saw a church leader who left his wife, remember of the congregation and I saw a woman get punched in the face for not being sufficiently obedient and submissive to her husband. And all of these things around you and you're like, it seems like a pretty high bar, you know, because I was drinking and I had boyfriends and I did smoke and you know, and I particularly when I got to sort of like 13, I started finding more solace in those things than I did in church. So I was like, I'm, I'm getting everything wrong. From what I understand of church, I'm failing on all sides. Finger of judgment at you. Yeah. I can't, I don't see anything here that's worth fighting for this worth, Jay. I don't see anything here that's better than what I'm being offered outside. So that was kind of the point when I left church when I was 13 or so when my mum said, okay, well, you're on not to stay home if you want to. And I saw, I genuinely saw no reason to stay. I liked the idea of God. And I think I actually, I prayed and I had a relationship with God that was okay. It was good for, you know, for a child, obviously, was limited understanding and things and all I had was my picture, bibles and stuff. But like, you know, it was, it was okay. And I, I like the idea of God, but Christians absolutely not. So that's exactly what I was going to ask you, Lauren, saying, you know, was there a distinction for you between, you know, the church and God ultimately, you know, it's the behavior of Christians, isn't it, that can so often put people off church, which is so sad, so sad. Yeah, totally. But I think it's really hard to unpick the two. I definitely looking back did not understand who God was and definitely saw him as far closer to my perception of those people than I think he really is. Yeah. But I did see them as two seconds. for entities, but my experience of those Christians was heavily influenced my perception of God in a way that I think was quite quite damaging. Because ultimately, if I had really understood who God was, that relationship would have been enough for me to keep fighting for it. Yeah, so I mean, I suppose the question is, what would you say to girls in your shoes, you know, on the cusp of their teens at that time when independence is beckoning? As you say, things see much more attractive outside of church circles than in. What would you say to those girls to encourage them to really pursue their relationship with God and say, yeah, keyed into church? Yeah, well, I think if you're not enjoying the church, you're right, you can change, you can go to a different one. You don't have to go to the church, your parents are taking you to particularly, you know, if you're in secondary school and you're, you know, going to school in your own and well, you can go, you can choose a different church. You can go to a church that a friend goes to from school or that you've heard has got a good youth group or whatever, you know, and I think I didn't really see that as an option. I just thought this is church. I either go or I don't. But actually, you're right, independence is beckoning and I think plenty of Christian parents would rather hear you say, I'd like to try a different church than I'd like to stop going to church. Yes, absolutely. I can imagine that that actually wouldn't be met in many circumstances with a negative reaction. But I suppose more personally, what I've learnt as an adult, which no one told me then, and it's important to sort of hear this in context. But actually, I thought that God was saying, no, you can't do that because you're a Christian or a full stock. And actually, what I think God says when we're making decisions is you can, you can do that. But I need you to understand the consequences to yourself. Yes. And there are consequences. And sometimes those consequences are short lived and easily remedied. And sometimes you could be where I'm at in your 30s and still unpicking and untangling some of the consequences of those decisions. And I would love to save those young people that. So you can't, you can make the choice to drink and smoke and sleep with your boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, you know, whatever, you can make those choices. But God is saying as far as he's concerned, the consequences of those choices are too high because you're too precious. Yes. And you need to think those through. And I wish someone had spoken to me in those terms, rather than black and white, this is bad. You're bad if you do this. God says no and that's enough. And maybe it should be enough. But actually, what's important to me is understanding God's heart and why, why he says like, hey, here's how I'd love you to live. Yes, yes, it is. It's about pursuing God's heart, isn't it? Most definitely. That's certainly been my experience. So Lauren, you talked about then your teen years where you said yes to other things. And then that led you subsequently into university life where you were very much established in your binge drinking habits. So you must have fitted well into the freshest week, which as we know is so dominated by alcohol. Your first year's all about. Yeah. Yeah. Why do we do that? It's all about 50 P shots and bar crawls and yeah. Who managed to drink the most and drinking competitions and drinking games? And you're like, oh my goodness, if someone wasn't in the alcoholic when they started. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, having then you studied journalism at university, is that right? Well, she didn't. I studied neuroscience at university. Wow. Yeah. So I was all in with the sciences. I went back and got an NCTJ about sort of eight years later, which is the national qualification for journalists. But my bachelor's degree was in neuroscience. Oh, how interesting. Okay. So building on that graduate experience then with brand new degree in neuroscience, how did life develop for you? Because as you say, in university, you were very much the party girl pursuing the alcohol and by then probably fair to say you were addicted. Would that be fair? Yeah. I think it's very hard for people, particularly young people who are caught in that sort of mystery, jinking society in that kind of culture to identify themselves as alcoholic or not. And actually, alcoholics are a bit of an outdated term. It's a term that people in recovery will still use because they like to cling onto the traditions, but really would say alcohol used disorder these days. Okay. But it's tough because there are people who drank like me who definitely are not addicted and were not addicted. And actually, they were just problem drinkers responding to the environment in the moment. But when faced with the compelling reasons to stop, for example, when they got a full-time job and they realized, I'm going to get fired if I keep drinking like this, they stopped. Or when they go into a relationship and their partner didn't like them drinking as much, or if they had a child and just life became far too consuming, facing children and to do that hungover became completely untenable. So like a combination of different things. So there were people who drank like I drank who just threw themselves into that kind of lifestyle, but actually didn't need a 12-step program. And when faced with good enough reasons, they were able to tone it down or stop all together on their own. Or as that actually wasn't me. So if you'd asked me at that time, I wouldn't have been able to identify it. But yes, what I had was an addiction, but I think it's very hard in those circumstances to be able to pick out who isn't addicted. And basically, you find out by choosing abstinence for a while and seeing who manages it. So your focus on alcohol actually then developed and spiraled into something further. Tell us about what drew you as your next sort of hit. Yeah. Well, so I left university and I got a job in hospitality. And again, it is just one drinking environment to another. The whole hospitality industry is work hard, play hard, long hours, you're serving people drinks, you're encouraging other people to party, you're really wanting them to ring the most out of their evening. And then when they stop, it's your turn. And actually that sort of industry is very late night, very nocturnal. And there's a lot of drugs involved as well. It's not just drinking. I was, I had the talks in school and I knew drugs equals bad. But you know, I'd had many talks where something equal bad. And I found it, okay, I don't really know what to do with that. So I didn't really understand the consequences of taking drugs and choosing to take them. But I knew that I wanted to be popular, I wanted to be part of the party, I wanted to be included. And I saw drugs as a means of getting there. And I was offered them by people who I considered to be popular, who I considered to be the life and soul of the party, who I consider to be part of the in crowd. And also taking cocaine facilitates drinking. It allows you to drink more where your body has a natural cap where you will pass out or black out or vomit or something from just consistently consuming alcohol. Cocaine prevents that, which meant that it just means that you can be far more insatiable, you know, and you just live in the soul of the party. Yes. You don't have the same sort of bumper to stop you. So I found it to be the perfect next step to facilitate my drinking to continue the party. Like, okay, it's bad for you. But I actually at that time didn't see many downsides other than the fact that like, okay, it's a bit dangerous. So I mean, that's really interesting, Lauren, isn't it? Because if someone is talking about stereotypes, very often people will say, well, an individual who struggles with drug addiction is likely to have had a dysfunctional family background. There's likely to have been some real struggles as a child that have led them into that kind of behavior. Now that wasn't the case for you, but you're talking here instead about this draw for I suppose like a hit of being able to be the centre of attention presumably. Is that right? Was that the draw for you that you you wanted to? No, no, actually not at all. I think it was far more about creating a barrier between myself and anxiety. Because being the centre of attention, I guess, is a tool. It's a mask in itself, right? Because it's not actually you that you're platforming. It's a version of you that you think people would want. I think it was far more about so I was very socially anxious. My desire for popularity meant that I put that on such a pedestal that I became incredibly stressed in social situations. An alcohol meant that I didn't have to connect with that level of stress and anxiety. Yes. And it didn't mean that it wasn't there, but it just meant that I wasn't thinking about it. And that was incredibly attractive. So I definitely don't fit the pattern of, you know, I didn't come too fast to care. I had two loving parents, you know, and everyone that every loving parent, everyone does the absolute best with the tools that they've got. But there's very few probably no parent-child relationships that don't have some things that that need working on things like that. But, but, but, in that sense, it was normal. Sure. It wasn't completely perfect, but everyone was really loving and present and caring. But yeah, I really struggled particularly with my interpersonal relationships when I was younger and that did carry me through with quite a lot of trauma. There's, you know, there's open to everyone, you know, it's an equal opportunities problem. And that's why I find recovery quite so refreshing because you can have a celebrity sitting next to a rough sleeper. You know, it is a complete diverse mix of people from all kinds of different backgrounds. and they come together with this sort of common problem and common solution that is really moving and powerful. Yeah, it's amazing to see it through that lens, actually, and to hear from your direct experiences exactly how you perceived it. So going back then to your story, Lauren, you'd spiraled into this addiction ultimately to alcohol and cocaine. Did you see a future without cocaine? And did you have a sense of, well, actually, I'd like to stop this habit, I'd like to kick it. How did things develop from a place of, this is my choice, this is my lifestyle to choosing a path of recovery. So I started taking cocaine a lot and I started taking it multiple times a week, maybe four or five times a week. And I think that it's easier for you to act like you, to convince yourself you don't have a problem when you're just drinking because you always know someone who drinks more than you. You may be measuring yourself against someone who's got a serious problem, there's always Steve who props up the bar every night and you know, it's someone. Whereas when it comes to drug use, it's a lot harder to say that you don't have a problem, particularly when you're consistently using and when you're letting people down, when I was experiencing physical problems as well, like nose bleeds and memory loss and things like that. And it just becomes increasingly difficult to deny that something needs to change. And people around me were getting very frustrated as well. And people who love me were either distancing themselves from me or challenging me, or my behaviour. So between those things, eventually I thought I'd probably need to make some changes, but I didn't for a long time. It was in the back of my mind that this is probably, well, in the front of my mind, this is a problem. But I didn't do anything sort of substantial about it for quite a long time. So was it covert for you or as you say, your friends and family were aware that you were a drug user? My family weren't, my friends were. My friends, okay, I didn't hide from my friends the fact that I was using, but I would act like you're the only person I'm using with this week, when actually the next night I'll just be out with different friends and different friends and different friends. So no one had the full picture. Okay. But all of my friends knew that I was taking cocaine. Yeah, I didn't hide that from anyone, but my family didn't, and I wasn't particularly close with my family at that time. So I didn't spend a huge amount of time with them. Okay, okay. So actually your sister was instrumental in a gear shift for you. So tell us about that. Yeah, so my sister carried on going to church when I stopped and had a very different sort of lifestyle. And in the end, I had been up all night and I've been taking cocaine. And I called in to work and said, I'm not coming in. I'm, you know, still high. And then I called my sister. And I said, well, you come over after work. This was on a Friday. I was just sitting over and I just said to her, it was the first time I'd said to someone, she was the second time I'd said to someone before that, but they were also high and it didn't really matter. But I'd said to someone in a way that I thought would actually change things that I was a drug addict. And I said what I've been doing. And she said, well, we knew that you were like out a lot, that you were drinking a lot. So I guess this isn't a huge surprise. And she was brilliant and she moved me in with her and she took me to church. And she typed up a sort of resignation letter and sent me to work with the resignation letter and told me to hand that in. Good, this work as well. Yeah. Wow. And so what happened next then? So you left your job. You'd been challenged directly by your sister. What did you decide to do next? Well, I ended up moving. I left London to sort of get away from all of that lifestyle, which is quite a classic sort of addict thing to do to think that the situation is the problem rather than you being the problem. So I moved out of London and it made a big difference. It made a difference for a while. You know, I stopped taking drugs, but I was still drinking very heavily. And eventually some friends again said, you know, you've made some good choices. But we can, you know, and I'd started taking drugs here and there again. They were like, you're just going down the same path. So we think you need to get more solid help. And they asked me to go to a recovery group of cocaine addicts. Okay. Wow. And was God part of that journey as well because you say your sister took you to church. Did that spark a fresh sense of wanting to align with God again at that stage in your life? Not at all. So she took me to a church, which is really near me. And I thought that people were really nice. And it was a lovely greeting at the door and the message was nice. And they were sort of promoting some charity work that they were doing that I thought again was nice. I just thought it was nice. And they said does anyone want prayer? And I didn't ask for prayer. My sister was really upset and she thought this was supposed to be, you know, me sort of opening myself up to God and God was supposed to meet me where I was and he wasn't coming. And I said her afterwards, yeah, like I like them. I think that they're nice, but this is your thing. It's not my thing, you know, like I get it. I get that they're nice people, you know. But I think even that one service did plant a few seeds. But no. So the next nine months, I'm drinking still very heavily occasionally taking drugs. Still no further in terms of faith. And then I went to, I did go to a recovery group meeting. And in these meetings, they use a 12 step model, which includes talking about a higher power. And they don't tell you what that higher power is or what you should believe. And everyone's got a different approach to it. But, you know, was my third meeting. I agreed to go to three me to 19 meetings in 90 days after that first meeting, because the sort of thinking is you've got enough time to drink and be hung over and take drugs. So you've got enough time to turn up for one hour a day at a meeting for your recovery, which is logical. So I turned up and then I agreed to go to 90 meetings in 90 days. And it was a third meeting where someone was sharing about their higher power and about submitting to their higher power. I don't even remember what their higher power was. I was just saying, "God, I'm not going to be a higher power." And I was just saying, "God, I'm not going to be a higher power." And did you find then that that church family really rallied around you presumably in conjunction with this ongoing 90 day process? Yeah, I think the combination of the two was really powerful because I had people who really knew what I was going through and had lived it and experienced it and understood it on a level that no one else could. But then I had some people who, whilst they didn't, they haven't actually personally experienced it. They had known people who need churches. There was only four people in the church who knew that I was in recovery, the vicar in his wife, and then a couple who led the sort of Bible study that I went to. And so it's just the four of them. But they had a lot of experience, obviously, of people in really difficult situations. And also they had a really mature faith. So from their perspective, obviously it wasn't my perspective at the time, but they had a solution. A 12-step programme would point me towards if I was working with them as well to grow my understanding of faith and things. And I think that the two together were an incredible support to me when I was very vulnerable. Hi, everyone. Did you know that we're now a charity called Carry Shells Media, and we're excited to launch our brand new website. Log on to Carry ShellsMedia.com, and you will find all our podcast episodes, as well as an introduction to our fabulous team. Want to share your own stories of faith on a Carry Shells episode? Well, get in touch via our website. There's even the chance to become a Carry Shells supporter and find out more about upcoming events. You see, everything we do at Carry Shells Media is you funded, and we can't thank you enough for your incredible support. Every gift matters, and you make Carry Shells happen. And now, let's get back to the episode. I mean, that's amazing, isn't it? Can you say now with the benefit of hindsight looking back that your growth and maturity in your faith was directly in correlation with a decrease in your dependency on cocaine and and walking through that recovery? Would you say there was a direct correlation there? Do you know, I don't know if I can. The first sort of three months was incredibly messy. What did it look like, Lauren? I mean, what does the message look like? In terms of addiction. Or in terms of, actually, both. Yeah. So I didn't get Jesus. I was turning up out of a sense of obligation to the people who were kind to me at church initially. It was a surprise to me that they were so kind, given my experiences before. And I was starting from very little, like I really had last time had the sort of picture by was hadn't read the Bible. You know, I thought it was Noah's Ark and a magic hair that got cut and then you lose all your strength. It was a series of fairy stories. So it took a long time years for me to really understand what Christian faith was, who Jesus was. And for what they were saying to actually matter to me, but I liked them. And I liked the way that they treated me. And I hadn't experienced that before. So I kept coming back for them dependency on cocaine. So cocaine is not a is not a drug that builds a physical dependency in the same way that heroin alcohol does. So that kind of goes. There's no physical dependency. But there's a social dependency and there's a, you know, it's your routine is your crutch. But actually it was alcohol that was so inbuilt into me and the cocaine was so good. was a facilitator of the alcohol. But I think that the two words in separate ways and influenced each other, but I didn't see them moving like in a coordinated way. I was in a really strong place in my recovery long before I was in a really strong place in my faith. It took a long time for me to really feel sure and secure that I was in the right place with Jesus. But you have been clean now for gosh how long, how many days? 12 years. 12 years. I mean that's phenomenal. That's amazing. But Lauren, would you say that you still have a propensity for any addictive behaviour? I mean, is it that once we indulge addiction, actually it is easier to indulge it again, albeit in different ways? So you know, it doesn't have to be drugs, doesn't have to be alcohol. Maybe it's overreacting. Maybe it's over shopping. Maybe it's, do you know what I mean? I think we all have a propensity for addictive behaviour. So I'm curious for you coming out into a place of recovery. Do you still struggle with aspects of that? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. And there are people in recovery, I think lots of people would have different perspectives on this. But there's definitely a narrative that every addict has five bins and four lids. And you're just constantly moving things around to keep all five contained. But actually you don't have enough list to do that. And definitely early doors was my experience that you know, they tell you when you first stop drinking, eat as much sugar as you like because by cutting out a huge amount of alcohol and alcoholic drinks, you're cutting out a huge amount of sugar. And when we don't want you to crave alcohol and sugar. So just have the sugar you need. You know, without the drinking. Is that wise advice? I would say that has caused a lot of people a lot of problems because people then have this new dependency on sugar people. You hold back the curry boat, you know, a day in their early recovery, which obviously changes their body shape as well. Can make them feel quite unhappy and disaststified with that. So it's, you know, I get it. I get the advice. It's the lesser of two evils. And if you really are going to relapse because the combination of a sugar withdrawal and an alcohol withdrawal is too much, then fine, yeah, have the haribo. But ideally we wouldn't get obsessive about anything. I think I am increasingly in a place of balance. And I think that that has only come from an understanding. I think recovery can, I think the 12 steps in recovery can get you so far. But I think that there's a spiritual element to this, this kind of stuff and a spiritual battle. And I think that understanding idolatry, you know, and so possibly because of my framework for understanding my propensity to attach to things that don't serve me and my ruthlessness in cutting them out. So I, you know, I was drinking Diet Coke for a while. And then I realized I got to a petrol station filled up my car with petrol, went to get a Diet Coke, realized there wasn't one. And I felt like annoyed and a bit panicky. I thought I'll pay for petrol now and I'll pull over at the next petrol station to get a Diet Coke. And then I prayed about it and thought that is not a healthy attitude towards a soft drink. And I don't drink Diet Coke anymore. And I haven't for a year. And I think basically any time I see something that I think creeps into that kind of realm, I cut it out, you know, in the sort of like, I know where this is going. So I'm not having any part of it. So I'd say actually these days, I'm probably far less beholden to idols and idolatry than somebody who'd never done that kind of introspective work and become and been in addiction. But I think that that comes with years and years and years. And I think it's really tough. And certainly initially, I relied on food. I wanted various different things to sort of suit me. And it's a very painful process, tripping those, slowly stripping those out. I feel like I smoked for the first year and a half that I got clean and sober. And I was growing in my faith and trying to learn about my faith. And I was sober. I think it was absolutely the right thing that I did. Because having cut out two chemical dependencies of alcohol and cocaine to also cut out cigarettes would have been too much for me. But after you're in a heart, I stopped, you know, and that's been me slowly sort of clawing back my freedom from those other things. If I can interject briefly with that, that just makes me think of the nature of God's heart again, that, you know, he is so tender with each of us, you know, he knows our unique struggles, he knows our unique propensities, but he's very gentle, he's firm, but he's also gentle with the pace and the timing. So as you say, for you, that was a journey, you know, that was a journey towards really understanding how much he loved you and that you wanted to pursue God, which is beautiful. And you know, one amazing woman you are today, Lauren, having had that experience, having had that depth of those, you know, black holes that you've now come out of and what an incredible place from which to be able to encourage other people. So just tell us, Lauren, in the wake of your own journey of recovery, how you've invested in really coming alongside others. And also what you would say to addicts, you know, to really encourage them where they're at. So I set up a recovery program through the recovery course, which is like a set, sort of, a set sort of program that was written by a guy called Nigel Skalskim and run initially, I think from HDB, the sort of big Anglican Church in central London, but has sort of plenty of other churches have set up, set it up since and run it. And actually there are other programs as well, which run a similar sort of Christian based recovery model and some amazing charities, but that was the one I ran and I did that for five years and we had, you know, hundreds of people come through the door with all kinds of addictions, not just substances, but sex and porn and gambling and food and co-dependency and love and relationships, you know, and seeing people come to freedom through that sort of 12 step model, but also in a way that brings Jesus in very overtly, rather than sort of viewed aside. We're like, actually, here's a Bible verse that we believe supports sex, which was really cool and seeing people's lives change and transform through that was amazing, amazing, amazing. But personally as well, I've taken on sponsors and someone worked with me, I did the 12 steps of recovery and I did those several times with a couple of different sponsors. And that person gives up, you know, hours and hours and hours, there was an hour and a half a week that I spent with that person with my sponsor for a year and a half, which is no small commitment, you know, it's massive, yeah. Yeah, when she had two kids and stuff, but actually someone did it for her, so she did it for me. So now I do it for the next person. Pay it forward sort of thing, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And one person did it for me, but I've sponsored sort of 10 women over the course of the last few years and I'm working with someone now who I have been for a couple of years and she's phenomenal and she's a friend and will be a friend long after we've finished working this process. So I think there's a lot of discomfort in working with people in recovery. There's a lot of lying, there's a lot of manipulating and honestly the lies that I told often I didn't even think that I was lying. I mean, is that lying? I really thought, I, you know, I want to stop this, I want your help, I'm going to stop. But actually, I had that motivation for a brief window and then I went out and used again and that is the experience that you have often when you're working with addicts. So it takes some resilience. Actually, what it takes is for you not to be goal driven, you need to decide anyone I think who's working particularly with vulnerable adults or anything like that. Like we need to decide like with God, what is a sustainable amount that we can invest in people? Yes. Regardless of ever seeing any kind of tangible fruit. You know, people living I'm doing like inverted comments. Whatever metrics we decided success, we have to park them and say actually success here is me showing up for that hour that I've said I can do every week. And God and I have agreed that he will sustain me regardless of what happens in that hour, whether they turn up having used or drunk again, I'm still going to be here to show them that I love them and that I'm still here. And that is the only way I can do it. Because if I'm like, I'm going to do this God as long as in 365 days from today, I'm celebrating that person, you know, their one year anniversary of that person. None of that stuff happens. None of that stuff, everything's really messy. All I can do is tell is look that person in the eye and say, I'm not going anywhere. You can you can hate me. You can, you know, you can not want my advice anymore. You can relapse. You can kick out. You can do whatever you like, but I love you and I'm here full stop. We've agreed to an hour. I'll be showing up even if you don't. And that's all I can do, you know, and it does, it changes people's lives. Yeah. And I think it's amazing actually because on a wider scale, it feels like that is a scenario that probably every listener today can resonate with. Not necessarily in a, I'm recovering from addiction scenario, but actually just investing in other people, you know, we have so many people in our lives who are struggling with different things. And when we seek to come alongside them, it's costly. It's a sacrifice of our time, our love, our heart, but actually the outcome is always God's. you know, we can't come with conditions can we? So I love that that's reflected in what you said there Lauren. And we're just going to shift focus for the last 15 minutes together because there's another facet of your life that I'd love to bring out, which I had a good giggle about last night reading some snippets from things. So Lauren, you are a beautiful young woman and you are single. And that is absolutely fabulous. And in your walk with God over the years, you've really had some interesting experiences in dating, in navigating, dating, in the church setting. I mean, tell us about that. So you'd come out of addiction, you'd been rebuilding your life in that sense, did men feature? And what did God teach you in that season? Yeah, so you're encouraged not to date for the first year of sobriety because it is, I think the number one reason people relapse. It's like disappointment in dating or heartbreak or a break up or something. So you're just told, stay away from it. Get yourself solid and you can think about that later down the line. So probably for the first five years, I didn't really, I didn't have any serious relationships and stuff. And also, I was newly Christian and Christian dating's weird and a bit different to my mainstream dating. There's a lot of politics and church politics and almost people have got like code words and people talking specific ways about guarding your heart, which I know is actually is a biblical concept. So I'm not dismissing that as being important. But there's all sort of terminology around it. And it's all a bit weird. So it took me a long time to like work out how to do it, particularly feeling like a bit of an outsider. So maybe about the first five years, I didn't really. And then I turned 30. So I got sober 25, turned 30 and I thought, right, I should take this a bit more seriously and started doing the dating. And just, yeah, I guess found it very complicated. And I ended up writing a book about it. Yeah. So in my sort of capacity as a journalist, I thought, this is such an interesting weird world. And there were some books about it, but I didn't feel that they really reflected me. It's like women skipping through wheat fields, God's best in the waiting, praying for your husband. You know, this kind of stuff. I'm like, OK, skipping through the wheat fields, I love it. Like, you should have been interested. Yeah, that's what our single gals do. We don't have an interest. Absolutely. We skip through a wheat field and we just pray for our husbands. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, I thought there was something a bit more relatable out there, maybe, that also kind of like had a laugh at the ridiculousness, but also acknowledged like the true intense pain of it as well. And it's kind of both. It's this weird-- there are very few things that you laugh so hard about and cry so hard about, those two extremes as sort of dating. And I wanted to do something that reflected that. And I guess I found lots of things that lots of people, particularly if they're single in the church, will relate to, you know, we have got more single Christian women than we have single Christian men. And that can create an environment-- research suggests that those environments where there's a difference in number, there's a disparity in that. It suggests that you end up with high levels of emotional intimacy and low levels of commitment. And I'd say that's what I've seen often in communities of young single people in churches. And it can cause a lot of pressure and women feel like they've got a lot of something in. And there's this weird environment where churches can kind of without saying it, they can make people feel that marriage is superior. So we should all be, you know, like, they see a single person who's lonely and they think the way to fix that is to get them married. When really that is, you know, we can address the loneliness, we can embrace people better and create better community without pushing people down the aisle, you know? Yes. So I mean, would you say that you feel to some extent then churches is ill-equipped to care for singles today? And what might be the remedy? What might be the best approach? Perfectly equipped, but not using that equipment effectively, I would say, if I'm being honest, I think there are so few environments where people come together from a place of collectively wanting community and wholeness as a body. And obviously, no one as part of that body is perfect. And then that's the ideal that everyone turns up wanting that and some people are quite insular and would prefer just to keep themselves themselves. But let's say everyone wants that. I just don't think that they're executing it, right? I think that we collect, like, collects like, and couples have dinner with other couples, and the ones with the toddlers all have their play dates. And I get it. It's easier. It's easier. But community and true, true, and fulfil this from relationship and community doesn't come from what's easy. It comes from inconvenience and difficult conversations and putting yourself out and taking the time to speak to someone who doesn't get your cultural references, who's just that bit older or just that bit younger or who's never had your experience from a different ethnic background or speaks different language. If I only hung out with 30-something women who were like white and who went to church, that's not a rich life. And those women are phenomenal, right? But actually, I've got a friend who is 95 and she is absolutely phenomenal. And I've heard stories from her. I would have never heard anywhere else. And my life is richer. I'm good friends with my neighbour downstairs, who's in his 60s, and is just so much fun. And what he cares about is when Chelsea's playing a match and his garden and his dog. And I love hearing about those things as well. I just think we see someone who isn't like us and we think it's someone who is like them's job to befriend them and create community around them. I totally disagree. OK. And talking about one aspect then of Christian dating, in recent years, of course, dating apps and online dating hasn't been so much of a debu. I mean, I have to admit, I met my husband online. Which is amazing. Yeah, and we've been married 13 years. And God used that briefly to connect us. And then, yeah. But what's been your experience of that sort of aspect of dating? And do you think that it is a helpful vehicle for Christian singles? I definitely think it's a helpful vehicle because if you are a Christian person who wants to date another Christian, you're effectively dating in thin markets. You know, just meeting someone who's around your age isn't enough. You can't walk into a pub and strike up a conversation because the likelihood that they'll share your fate is pretty loved. So a place where those people can be collected, like a church, but actually it's not your church, which kind of removes some of the difficulty because you don't have to see that person every week. It is actually very helpful. We have that tool. We don't use it properly. And actually, the gamification of dating through dating apps is the problem. What the most healthy way to use a dating app is to open it up, spend two or three minutes looking at that person's profile, looking at the pictures they've put forward, what they've said about themselves, what they're offering, thinking about that the person as a whole human being who has uploaded that with the hope of a romantic relationship, decide if you think that there's more that you might want to know, and I think if it's a maybe it's a yes, and then making your decision as why I think and then putting your phone away. Because the more people you look at, the more you get into a rejection mindset, the more you dehumanize the profile that you're looking at. And actually that's not fair and not right. So one profile at a time, think of it as a tiny speed date with you on a screen, just to think through like, "Okay, do I think there's more to this person?" Even pray about it. God cares immensely about your partner. And he cares immensely about how you treat these people, whether you go on a date with them or not, they are people who he loves on this dating app. So making sure that you're really honoring them and what they're offering you, whether you connect with them or not, whether you end up going on a date with them or not, really seeing them as human and giving them your full attention for that moment. And that's it. One person at a time. - And talking about singleness as a whole then Lauren, for you with your experiences, would you say that God's been building contentment in you to embrace this season? I mean, that's something that is relevant for all of us as women, no matter our season. We often talk about seasons, don't we, a season of singleness, a season of motherhood, a season of marriage. But actually we are all in different seasons and we can choose contentment. What has God been teaching you about that? And what might you say to women in their 30s or maybe even older wrestling with that, but I really want to meet that godly man? - Yeah, it's really hard. I see people both Christian and mainstream, particularly on social media and stuff, be like here's, wanna meet your husband in one year, here's what you've got to do. And there's this part of me that's like, oh yes, when I read that, 'cause I'm like, okay, there's a solution here and I can just follow these simple steps. And the hardest thing that I have to do when I speak about this or when I write about this is to say like, honestly, I can't promise you that. No one is promising you that. - There must be no formula, surely. - We need to use some discernment here and silence those voices because actually, there is no one size fits all situation. It there's absolutely nothing wrong with praying to God about this and praying about it regularly. That is not embarrassing, that is not needy. None of this stuff is a totally natural desire to have. to God, but realistically there are no concrete guarantees that you're going to meet your husband. Or actually, I would suggest that you're going to meet the husband that you want to meet. Because often I think that we can have a sort of criteria in our minds of what that person, you know, and if we're talking to women here, then what that man is going to look like and who they're going to be. And I always come back to when Samuel the Prophet went to Jesse's house to find the new king, saw as the king. It wasn't going very well. You know, they want the new king. So God tells Samuel the Prophet to go to Jesse's house and Jesse's got all of these sons and he sees the oldest son and he's like, yes, I'm totally paraphrasing by the way. I think that's the way I love it. I love it. This is not a child of the Bible tells it. But again, like, Samuel's like, yes, that's the guy look at him. He's tall. He's like muscular. And you know, these kings had to like ride out to battle. They wanted like a real. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like intimidating warrior. Absolutely. And God's like, no, he's not the guy. He's not, you know, like you're looking at his height. You're looking at his appearance. But I'm looking at the heart. And that's not who I've chosen. And I wonder if there's someone who's got like a checklist of he has to be over six foot is a really common thing when men keep saying at the moment he has to be over six foot. He has to be this. He has to be that, you know, I couldn't date someone like this. I couldn't date someone who who has a job like that or speaks like that whatever it is, right? Actually, you could be disqualifying a man who has got God's heart for you with those surface things. And I think that the criteria has got to be someone who is kind, someone who has got the, you know, their faith where you want it to be that they are open to God's challenge. They want to grow in him. Someone who is interesting and you're interested in talking to them because it's a long life not to care what someone's going to say. Yeah. Care about some opinion. You want to be excited to have a conversation with them and someone who you find attractive. But my challenge is to be open to finding attraction in packages you weren't expecting, you know, because we're overlooking some phenomenal men by having these kind of arbitrary rules about what isn't isn't attractive. And I think it's, I don't, I think God is specifically saying not to do that. Yes, I love that. Yes, you're so right. I mean, I think that illustration of Samuel picking out, you know, David only with God saying, look at his heart. You know, that is such a challenge to us as women, isn't it? Because we live in a society that is so driven by visual all the time. But God sees the heart. He sees our heart. He sees these men's heart and he sees how actually those two hearts can come together into something really dynamic and beautiful. And I think, you know, I always encourage young couples when I have the privilege of meeting them, of praying that sense, you know, if you're seeking out where the marriage is the right step forward, ask yourselves, you know, will you be more effective together in serving God than a part? Because his heart is to champion marriage when it is beautiful, when it points to him. And if it doesn't, actually, that's not going to be his best plan. So, yeah. So Lauren, I mean, you've shared so much with us today about your heart, about your journey. Where do you see yourself in five years time, ten years time? I mean, what comes next for you? Difficult question I know, but I'm just throwing it out there to see what you might say. You know, job interview question, isn't it? I don't know. Five years time. In five years time, well, I've got a book that's coming out in 2028 and that is on a lot of the stuff that we talked about, I do not know tree and addiction, but I'm excited about that and actually what the dating book kind of turned into a ministry, you know, where I was sort of moving around and speaking to people about and encouraging people and also trying to help people meet people and, you know, whilst affirming that being single is a great choice. Also, you know, facilitating a few more conversations and in the hope of actually getting some really good, godly marriages and I really love that and I wonder if God isn't calling me into a sort of season of ministry around the sort of idolatry and addiction stuff in a way that I haven't done before. So I'm open to what God's got in that and I wonder if that's that's going to be a part of it. I'd love to be married in the next five years as well, sort of in the sort of personal sense, but otherwise it's so funny because I could have done this answer that question five years ago and I would have said something totally different to where I'm at, but I'm really happy with what I've got. So I guess with the caveat that I totally trust that if God's plan is completely different, I won't regret it, you know, and I really believe that and that has been my experience. But actually what I've got at the moment is really good. I've got a lovely job. I'm surrounded by wonderful friends. I live a few roads away from my sister and her husband and their four kids and I love spending time with them. Oh, but you're a wonderful auntie. Yeah, I've had so much fun with them. So yeah, I've been really pleased if lots of stuff hadn't changed actually, you know. Isn't that beautiful though? Because that's a testament to God working in your heart to really enabling you to choose contentment at this point of your life and to celebrate that. And I think that is so relevant for all of us, you know, we need to choose whatever our circumstances to look for the beauty, to look for the treasure's God's placing there. That's what Carrey Shales is about, you know, treasure is found in unexpected places. And actually that can enrich us. We can be so thankful. And out of that place of thankfulness, celebration comes and it's amazing, you know, the gift of life. So it's been such an honour talking with you today. Oh, thank you so much for having me. I've loved it. Oh, thank you. Thank you for joining us. Lauren, would you pray for us just to wrap up? I'm aware that our conversation has had, you know, quite a few sensitive issues in it. And I would just love to pass a little all-up in God, but to ask you to pray because, you know, you've been there and you're just to pray for people who are perhaps coming alongside individuals who are struggling with addiction or perhaps listeners today are themselves and are dicting some way, praying for women who are wrestling with singleness and actually saying, you know, I want contentment, but I don't have it right now. Would you pray? Linda, I'd love to. Yeah. Lord God, thank you so much for this time. This time of conversation is time for reflection. Yeah, I pray that anything that's been said that you've got earmarked for someone to hear, that you really want someone to reflect on. I pray that it would rest on them and anything that's not for them, they would just forget, just pass them by. And for anyone who is concerned about a loved one or supporting someone who is in active addiction or coming through it, Lord, I pray that you would strengthen them, that they would know that they are doing that in your strength, that you would give them every tool that they need to be consistent to to be patient, to show that kind of care, Lord God. I pray that you would stand with them and give them moments of encouragement, even if they're not necessarily from that person they're supporting, you know, because we know that that's a challenge and it's an up and down journey, but that they would feel your encouragement, your sort of big well done for the work that they're doing and the way that they're investing. And Lord, if anyone here is listening and they are themselves in a place of addiction and they know they need to make a change, I pray that you would encourage them, embolden them to ask for help, Lord. I pray that you would bring the right people around them. I pray that they would know that nobody does this on their own, but that there are so many people who really love to support them. I pray that you would show them the right charity to reach out to you the right anonymous fellowship, the right church group, the right person to speak to, pray that that would just become a fundamentally clear and when the opportunity comes and I just pray that you would embolden them to take it, Lord, to take that incredible first step to ask for help and that that would be the start of just a new and transformed life for them. And for anybody who just knows you're good, but isn't sure they feel it anymore, and they have prayed and prayed for something to shift in their love life, to them to find the partner, the happiness, to have the wedding, to have the marriage that they've seen others have, for those who feel left behind and unheard and unthought of and undesired, Lord, I just pray that you would speak to their hearts, but they would know that that is fundamentally untrue that they are worthy of love and that they have access to the greatest love that they could ever need and yes, a romantic relationship would be such a wonderful bonus, a healthy romantic relationship would be such a wonderful bonus, but actually they have everything they need in you. And Lord, I pray that you would bring them to a place of contentment that they would not feel hopeless, but that they would put their hope in you in your name Jesus. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much for listening in to Carry Shells today with me, your host Catherine Grimes and our beautiful guest and a big thank you to all the women who make Carry Shells podcast possible for your generous support, you know who you are and we are eternally grateful. A big thank you goes out to David Campion of Open Sky Media for editing and producing this episode and this is where you come in. If you have enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by growing the Carry Shells community of women of faith. You can leave a review or a rating, pass the stories on and look for the stories in your own life as well. Thank you and look forward to talking with you next time.