This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, host of The What Happened to Her Podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it and the man they suspected wore a badge. "You never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform." And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Lisa, tell them a better new show! We have a new podcast, it's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Euaniel, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcasts. The True Crime Comedy Podcasts all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scam them. What? I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Scam Goddess! I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character, the best podcast in the world, is what they said. Wait, they said that? Yeah, yeah, they said that. The best podcast with two best friends who jabber and talk about topical, trendy, funny stuff, give our input on it. That's what you've needed, I think, up until now, listener. Listen out of Character on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes I just feel like a burden. You're a bird. You fly. You're a morn. And we are Out of Character Podcasts. Dude, who may I stop the clip? If Sasuke's story sounds familiar to you, it might be because of another case that's been in the news. The mass rape trial which has stunned France has ended with 51 men all being found guilty for what they did to Giselle Pelico. Our top story today is the mass rape trial that has horrified France. Giselle Pelico's story was shared around the world. For almost a decade her husband drugged and raped her and invited dozens of other men to do the same. In those years, Giselle thought she was seriously ill. She thought she was blacking out because of a possible brain tumor, or maybe early onset Alzheimer's. She'd been married to her husband for nearly 50 years. She never suspected he had anything to do with her symptoms. Like Sasuke, she only learned the truth when she saw videos of herself being raped. When Giselle's story made headlines in December 2024, we were a few months into talking to Sasuke. We forwarded her an article about the case. It was the first time she'd ever heard a story like her own. It was empowering. I didn't know that there are other people out there like me. But Sasuke and Giselle aren't a club of two. In the last two years, there have been more and more stories like this of people raping their partners and publishing images and videos of their crimes. For example, German authorities uncovered a group chat on the app Telegram, where men were sharing intimate images of their partners. Some were even sharing live videos of sexual assaults. This wasn't a group chat of 10 or even 100 men. There were 70,000 members. The same thing happened in Italy. 32,000 men on Facebook were part of a group called Mia Mogli, My Wife, where they shared non-consensual intimate images. It took 3,000 complaints in six years for the group to get shut down. People are just waking up to this crime, and as awareness grows, other survivors like Sasuke are coming out of the shadows. When you go home at the end of the day and you crawl into bed with the man that you love, that should be the safest place you'll ever be in the world. I found out that that was the most dangerous place that I had ever been. And that is your real mind fuck. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 5. Episode 7. Not Alone. Really quick before we get into the episode. I have a small favor to ask you. If you're enjoying listening to Betrayal, please take a second to hit the follow button on your podcast app, and please rate and review. We read all the comments and your voices help our show improve and evolve. I really mean it when I say thank you for listening and helping us grow. Also, if you want behind-the-scenes content or resources, follow @betrayalpod on Instagram or follow me at It's Andrei Gunning. All right, onto the show. We're not finished telling Sasuke's story, but before we dive deeper into this season, we need to zoom out a bit because what happened to Sasuke wasn't a one-off. There are people all over the world committing these kinds of crimes, and there are more survivors who are just now climbing out of the dark. In the past few years, we've heard from other people like Sasuke. They're women of different ages and different backgrounds. They're stories unfolded years or even decades apart, and they each made different choices in the aftermath of what happened to them. But they've all endured something similar and unthinkable crime at the hands of someone they loved. We want to share the stories of three women who wrote into us. Let's start with Ember. Growing up, Ember never imagined she'd be the victim of a crime like this. Everyone described me as like just a very strong individual, and I myself thought, if you're strong, you're not going to fall prey, that kind of thing. At 21, Ember was confident, outspoken. She knew who she was, and her faith was a big part of that. She's Christian, and she drew clear boundaries and accordance with her beliefs. I really did not want to engage in, in her course until I was married, and I was honest about that with every guy I dated. Like, this is what I believe, and if you don't like it, there's the door. With her fiance, she found a guy who understood, a man who'd respect her values. His name was John. At this point, we had been together for about four years on and off. During those four years, there'd been ups and downs. Periods where John's mental health suffered. But finally, Ember saw him becoming the man she always knew he could be. He was stable and thoughtful, and he was getting more involved in the church. I thought that it was really from a place of him growing and healing and changing. Everyone around them saw the shift in John. Their friends and family were so excited about the engagement. Even their pastor gave his approval. It's like all relationships go through really hard times. You guys seem like you're really good together, and I think this would be completely okay, and we're like, okay, and I'm sitting there going, if there were red flags, this person would point this out and nobody pulled a red flag out. Their engagement was the start of a new chapter, a beautiful life together. Then a month into their engagement, Ember got sick. It started one night at John's house. She remembers sitting down to study. But after that, I don't recall anything that happened other than I somehow made it home. It was like her memory just jumped. One second, she was at John's. The next, she was home. She explained it away. She must have had a long day, dozed off. But nights like this kept happening. There were so many occasions where I would fall asleep studying, and he would wake me up, be like, oh my gosh, you fell asleep again, you need to hurry up and get home. And I would be so out of it, I wouldn't know what was happening, and I'd just somehow make my way home. Over time, Ember started experiencing other symptoms, like chronic pain without any clear cause. It was a pain that was indescribable.
I couldn't sit, I couldn't stand, I just couldn't find any comfortable position, and I couldn't arm or anything that had happened. And that wasn't all. I'm breaking out and I was all over my body, having my greens I've never had before. Through it all, John was there for Amber. I remember him coming over to comfort me. He just sat with me and like rubbed my back. It was like I'm so sorry you're not feeling well. He supported her as she searched for a diagnosis and went to doctor after doctor. No one could figure out what was going on. They were just like, oh you're probably really stressed out. I was, you know, in the throes of school and working full-time and getting married and all that stuff. I was still able to function, but internally I was all in the park. Things went on like this for a year, with Amber at a total loss. Just like Saskia, she wanted a solution. Some answer that would tie all her symptoms together. And then, one day, an answer began to emerge. During this time, Amber was taking classes to become a massage therapist. On this particular day, her instructor was talking about the SOAS muscle. The SOAS muscle is a highly protective muscle that a lot of people don't even know exist. It attaches on the front of our spine. And if we are in fight or flight, it is engaged and spontaneously. The instructor asked Amber to come up to the front so she could have someone to demonstrate on. This happened all the time in class. And Amber didn't think anything of it. I'm laying on the massage therapy table, all of the other students are watching. And she goes to address my SOAS muscle and I immediately dissociate. I don't remember anything that happened on the table. I don't remember anything that my body did that I said. All I remember is at the end, her saying, "Okay, that was interesting." I get up from the table and she's like, "Hey, do you have a minute? Can you come outside?" And I said, "Okay, sure." And she's like, "Do you know what just happened in there?" And I was like, "No, you were working on my SOAS." She's like, "You were somewhere else. You were not present." And I really have a strong sense that I need to tell you that some things probably really wrong if your SOAS is responding in this way and causing you to go somewhere else. Somewhere else. Lying on the massage table, her mind and body split off into separate directions. Just like it did on those nights, studying with John. Things were happening around her, but she couldn't remember them. Looking back, Ember now has an explanation for what was going on. I was dissociating from my trauma. Dissociation occurs when the mind separates from the body as a way of protecting itself from harm. The brain mutes physical sensations, thoughts, and memories, such that many people coming out of dissociative episodes feel like they've just woken up from a dream. But the body stores memories of trauma, even if the brain tries to push them out. That day on the massage table, Ember's body demonstrated that something was wrong. It was kind of the beginning of my body and brain thing. We need to be in this together instead of separating. In fact, it was shortly thereafter that I actually woke up mid-attack. The night started the way so many others had. She was hanging out at John's house when her mind went dark. But on this night, in the midst of her dissociation, she woke up and her brain and body snapped back together. When she came to, there was someone on top of her. Her eyes focused, and suddenly, she could see. It was John. I freaked out and I was like, what is happening? She was like, nothing, nothing happened, and I'm like, there's evidence that something happened. His pants were pulled down, so were hers. And remember, Ember didn't want to have sex until marriage. Immediately, Ember could tell John had taken that choice away from her. In the moment, she was still grouty. I'm still not fully there, but I'm conscious enough to know something is really, really bad. But I lost it. In a days, she threw on her clothes and ran out the door, went home. She called people she could trust, and one of those people notified the church. The next day, a pastor called John and Ember in for a meeting. And we sit down with the pastor, and he's like, what's going on? All I can do is look down at my shoes. All I remember is the floor. She was quiet, but to her surprise, John spoke up, and he told the pastor everything. John came right out and confessed. He was drugging me and raping me. The pastor goes, how often has this happened? He goes, this has happened probably once a week, almost the whole time we've been engaged. That is now almost an entire year. It was so much worse than anything I had ever imagined. And I'm just completely just numb, just numb. John and their pastor kept talking, but Ember tuned them out. All of her senses bored together and to one loud hum. Finally, their pastor asked John to leave the room, so he could speak to Ember alone. So he leaves the room, and pastor looks to me and he's like, you need to get out of this relationship. This is not safe. This is not good. This is not going to stop. But as shocked as Ember was, she wasn't ready to hear that yet. After all, she loved John and leaving him would mean calling off their wedding. We're like three months before our wedding at this point in time. And breaking that off now means I have to tell everyone what has happened. That to me was almost as devastating as realizing what had happened. Now everybody's going to know this intense desire to hide in that amount of pain was just insurmountable. Ember couldn't allow herself to face the reality of her situation. She was still holding out hope that maybe if John got treatment, it would all be okay. They could forget about this and move ahead with the wedding. So John started going to therapy, and so did she. I was seeing a therapist that specialized in sexual abuse and he was seeing a therapist that specialized in sexual addiction. But therapy gave her different answers and the ones she was seeking. Ember and John's therapists worked at the same location. One day, while waiting for her session, John's therapist came through the waiting room. He walked past me, and then he stopped. He came back. You could see his wheels turning. He's like, "I'm not supposed to say this, but I feel like you need to know." We've run through a series of diagnostic tests on your fiance. He's not a safe person. He's officially diagnosed as a sociopath, and you should get as far away from him as possible. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly rolled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? She has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place. With a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that, and we were babies. She did all of these brave things, and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. I never know who that devil is, because he's wearing disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my god, Lexi. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwadio, where two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get any worse than fighting.
- This is wild. I learned that about you today. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. - If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. - We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. - We're best friends, but we don't always agree. - Because you told us how accommodating you are. - Obviously I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight. - I can fight. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Don't lie to me. - Lire. - Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. - I'm Hamza. - And I'm Martin. - And we're the host of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know there's a lot of them going around, but why should you listen to ours? - Well, we're only the best podcast in the entire world. - And we talk about pretty much everything under the sun. For example, music we're listening to, underground music, trending music, drama in music worlds. - Yes, sometimes we even talk about just everyday mundane situations in our lives, like the cool Uber driver we just had, or the food we just say that is surprisingly delicious. Or we'll talk about the Med Gala and the looks that they wore. Are they awesome? Are they trendy? Come find out. - Because our opinion matters. And so does yours. And this is a place where all of our minds can come together and connect. - So what are you waiting for? Come connect with us. Listen Out of Character from Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Pods, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, standup, comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcasts. Each week I bring on incredible guests, like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Deppery, Lamor and Morris and Nicole Byers. - Ooh, I scammed them. - What? - I could talk to you for an hour. - Your generational yapper. - Like me. - That's why I had to make yapping a job. - And the Scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s. All the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents, tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. - If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to scam goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. ♪ Scam goddess ♪ - Ember was waiting for her therapy session when she was approached by John's therapist. He told her that John was a diagnosed sociopath and she needed to protect herself. The therapist had to have felt strongly because he was taking a huge professional risk. Telling Ember threatened his license. He violated client confidentiality. - But it was a godsend. 'Cause honestly, if I hadn't heard those words, I think I probably would have assumed that everything was gonna be okay for a lot longer. I really thought that I was doing the good Christian thing by staying with him, that I was sacrificing myself so that he could experience love. And that was the point where I was like, I can't marry this man. - We'll hear more from Ember at the end of the episode. But now we want to introduce you to another survivor, Natalie. At 23, she started dating a guy we'll call Stephen when she was with him. - I felt like I was a queen. He would make me feel beautiful and smart and he would type up these really nice poems or just say how he looks forward to spending time together and getting married and having a family. - Their relationship was a long time coming. He was her best friend's older brother. And in every way, their lives just seemed to fit together. They played on the same softball team. They had a lot of the same friends. And when they talked, the conversation flowed. - It was very natural and it was just easy. I felt like we had a really strong foundation. - Eventually, they got engaged, then married. But when Natalie got pregnant, that was when Stephen really became her rock. She was nervous about being a mom. In the months leading up to the birth. - I would rearrange the nursery. I don't know how many times I rearrange it and I vacuum it every day. - Stephen grounded and supported her. - We had a lot of late nights setting things up and I would feel bad because he would have to work in the morning, but he was all about it, all about helping and getting everything ready and being very hands on. - When their son arrived, Stephen really stepped up. He made everything feel manageable. - He would get up with him. He would feed him in the middle of the night, even when he had to work the next morning. He would be wanting to help with my son and changing his diaper or just being with him to give me an hour of time for myself. - Stephen was a dream dad. They were in this together. And for a while, they lived a great life as a family. Then came one night when their son was five. Natalie was helping him get ready for bed. He had his own tablet where he could play games and watch TV. All the family's devices were linked in a cloud. - And I had his tablet 'cause I was gonna put it in on the counter to charge it. - She was plugging it in when she saw something on the home screen. - There was like a little window that had a man and you could see a penis on the screen. I'm like, oh my gosh. Like horrified that my son could see that. And I'm like, I hope he didn't click on this. Like what, I didn't notice it before. - Her husband was at work. Natalie messaged him right away. Stephen put her at ease. He thought it must be spam. Once her son went to sleep, Natalie went back to the tablet to reset it to factory settings. - I was looking in the cloud where the photos and images are 'cause I didn't want to delete all of that. And then that's when I saw photos and like videos, dozens of these clips and images. - It was all graphic sexual material. - I was like, I gotta get the stuff off of here, but then as I'm looking through, I noticed my bedroom. - She froze and she zoomed in on the photo. - You can see his hands, his wedding ring. And then I realized that I am in these images. I'm just like, horrified because I'm not awake. Some of them, I'm like, barely conscious and I'm like, how do I not know what's happening to me? There's no way that he's doing these things to me and I have no idea what's happening. I would have woken up. - She kept clicking through more photos and videos and then the images led her to fetish websites. - She could see that one of the videos was posted for anyone to see. - The title of the video that he had posted was something like creeping around without her knowing and I was nauseous. I was so embarrassed and I was, I just like shut down really. - The most upsetting part of it all. - I was pregnant with my daughter. - I went, I found this. One of the things I remember thinking was, oh my God. Was I an active participant in making my daughter? And just remember thinking like, oh my God, okay. I'm this many weeks long and counting back like, oh my God, okay. And I remember the weekend and I remember like, oh, thank God. Like, okay, yes, I remember this was when it happened. When Steven came home, she confronted him. - I remember sitting in the back room of the house and I just gave him the tablet and I had the images pulled up and I'm like, what is this? And you just kind of looked at it and was like, I have a problem. He was asking me like, let's go to counseling. Can we do counseling? And I'm thinking, I think you need counseling. (dramatic music) - From the day that I confronted him, I never slept in the same bed as him. - But leaving altogether didn't feel like an option. - I remember shutting down and thinking like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I work two days a week. He's a hands-on dad. He's supporting us. I need his help. What am I gonna do? - So she stayed. She picked up as many shifts at work as she could. And when Steven would come home at the end of his workday, she'd find it an excuse to go out. - I wouldn't want to be home when he was home. - As the months passed, Natalie began to uncover the full extent of Steven's abuse. - I found in his bedside table.
underneath some files he had a bottle of Tylenol PM and they were all broken up and they were in pieces and then there was some other powder stuff in the bottle too and I'm like that is probably what he was using and putting it in my drinks because I was not just asleep. I was literally unconscious. It shattered her sense of safety in her own body and in her own home. I didn't even want to drink anything that was opened in the house because I was afraid that he would put something in it. In the aftermath of her discovery, her friends and family could tell. Something had changed in her but she kept the truth to herself. People would ask me, are you okay or you know you're quiet? Oh I'm just tired. Oh I didn't sleep well last night or oh I'm just nervous about the baby coming. It was so embarrassing to me. It was like I was trying to avoid really thinking about that. It was just like this deep secret that I had. When her daughter was born, she continued to stay silent. Her priority was giving her kids a good life and for a long time she thought that meant smiling through the pain but eventually she realized she couldn't keep living in that house. She had to leave. I remember starting to pay things off that were in my name and I was starting to try to save a little bit of money like my own money because he was in charge of our finances. It took me well over a year just kind of living in the same house with him and being paranoid and then being just angry and then being bitter. Three years after her discovery, she finally saved enough money to move out. The new house wasn't much but it was hers. She was free. My realtor unlocked the door and you know we had walked in and she's like here it is. Here's your keys. This is your house. I was like oh my gosh you know this is great and then after she left I sat in there on the floor and I cried and I was excited and scared and just really proud and thinking like okay this is going to be really hard but I told myself that day I'm gonna do it. This is mine. This is something that he's not going to take from me. I'm gonna do it by myself, me and my kids and I'm gonna be the best mom that I can be. This is the first day of the rest of my life. There's one more woman to introduce you to or maybe reintroduce you to because we've told her story before on the first two episodes of Betrayal Weekly. She was the woman who got us thinking about this kind of crime two years ago when she discovered what her husband did to her. I couldn't think I couldn't function. I mean the kids had to like sit me down at the table and force me to eat and I just laid in bed and cried. It didn't just lose my husband. I lost my job, I lost my home, I lost my community, I lost trust, I lost safety. I really had to start over from square one. Stephanie was married for 23 years but then she discovered something horrifying on her husband's laptop. He had a flicker account that was filled with nude photos of me, hundreds of pictures. He explained that he puts the picture up in a chat room and 25 people at a time can be in the chat room but people come and go and so as they come in and out these other men are explaining how they would rape me. We asked Stephanie, what is it that only people who've experienced this crime can understand? Every woman has that fear, that awareness, that there could be a stranger that could jump out and assault me, rape me. But for her and for women who've been through what she's been through, it's this other thing. It's that when you go home at the end of the day and you crawl into bed with the man that you love, that should be the safest place you'll ever be in the world. I found out that that was the most dangerous place that I had ever been and that is a real mind-fuck. Ember Natalie Stephanie and Saskia, four women who wrote into our show with strikingly similar stories. All of these women survived drug-facilitated sexual assault. For three of them, non-consensual photos and videos were shared with strangers online. All of these women spent months, even years in the dark, not knowing what their partners were doing to them. And they all thought they were the only one. Nobody that I knew had been through anything similar, so even the way out of these people around, I still felt so alone and like a freak. The shame was really unbearable. Like, who am I going to tell this to? It is such an isolating experience to feel like nobody else can relate to what I've been through. So, we decided to bring these four women together, to connect with somebody else who says, "Again it, I see you. It's a gift." I'm Melissa Jeltson and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed, they can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these grave things and came out and spoke about it and she got a year. I never know who that devil is because he's wearing disguise. Listen to what happened to her on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh my god, Lexi, we have a new podcast. I'm Lexi Iwanyu, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. I'm not gonna get any words I'm fighting. That is wild. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Lie. Listen on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, I don't really care. I'm Hamza. And I'm Martin. And we're the hosts of Out of Character. It's a podcast. I know. There's a lot of them to listen to these days. How are you gonna get to us? Well, there's a specific reason why you should listen to us. We are the best podcast in the entire world. I swear. I know. Bold. But why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode? So sometimes we'll talk about, I don't know, the Uber driver we just had. And how nice they were or if we tip them or not, come and find out. Sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week. It's the one you're thinking about. Trust me. Or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground or drama music or TV shows or the Med Gala and what the actors wore. What we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun. And if you want to see what that's like, come join us. It's a place where everyone can hang out to anyone, wherever you're from, whatever you're like, you're welcome. - I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. - The True Crime Comedy Podcast, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. - Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamor and Morris and Nicole Byer. - Ooh, I scam them. - What? - You're a generational yapper, like me. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s, all the way up to today. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. ♪ Scam Goddess ♪ - After speaking to these four survivors, we knew we wanted to gather a group together. Because we're at an inflection point. Like us, the public is just waking up to this crime, opening their eyes to the fact that intimate partners can do things like this and share them on the internet. To get more victims to come forward and to expose how pervasive this crime is, we need to talk about it. So we set aside a Saturday, and we gathered Ember, Natalie, Stephanie, and Saskia on a video call. First off, I just wanna say, I am so grateful that you guys made time today. To make sure this was a safe experience for everyone involved, we also invited a facilitator. - Hi, everyone, my name is Megan Cutter, and I am the Chief of Victim Services at Rain. Rain, the rape abuse and incest national network, which is the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization, and we operate the national sexual assault hotline. Rain has been consulting with us throughout this season, and I'm really honored and grateful to facilitate this conversation today. - For the rest of this episode, we'll be playing you excerpts from our group discussion. And as a note, we'll be sharing more excerpts in a bonus episode. - I thought we could kick off the conversation talking about this idea of community. What has it been like trying to find community or support groups after what happened to you? - Saskia jumped in first. - I hadn't heard about any of this before it happened to me, and when I did try to reach out for help, I felt like because it was such a unique experience, nobody really wanted to touch it with a 10-foot pole. One of my favorite parts of all this is meeting other people who can relate to having these acts done by someone who is dear to you. - It's like, wow, you did this to the person you're supposed to love most in the world. That's Stephanie. The woman who told her story on Betrayal Weekly. - I had no bad feelings about my husband. I trusted him 100%. And so what that told me is that my gut for who was good and who was bad was busted. - I felt a lot like you did, Stephanie, of like clearly my ability to judge is broken. - That's Ember. The woman you heard at the top, whose fiance was assaulting her. - And I'd always prided myself on being a good judge of character and being able to read people. So that was like a hit to my sense of safety, honestly. - It has been a real journey for me to get to the point of realizing that it's not my gut that's broken. It's him that's broken. - Natalie brought up something we hear about in so many of these stories. - You know, just talking with my perpetrator, I know that he sort of normalized that, well, I'm not the only one. There's more than just this site or there's a lot of people doing it like it's normal. - My husband actually said to me, you know, otherwise just participate in this and like it. - Really? - Well, not me. It's almost like because you don't want to participate, this is happening to you. I wouldn't have to do this if you were just a willing participant. - And also that idea, like Natalie said, they're trying to normalize their behavior and make us feel like we're the one that's wrong. - I completely get why people don't come forward because we've been so traumatized already and it's so re-traumatizing to have to then put your life on display. Going through the criminal proceedings, they had no idea how shamed I would be in the process or how difficult it would be. - Saskia, you are so brave. I did look into trying to press charges against my husband but it didn't have what it takes to sit there and to be shamed and have every decision in my life looked at. - 100%, I think that's one of the hardest parts that I still carry. A lot of shamed about is that I didn't have what it took to batter back against the justice system. - I was being drugged and raped and at one point I woke up at attack and I remember going to law enforcement about two days later when I finally had my head about me and I tell them what I knew and they're like, "Well, if it's been two days, the drugs are out of your system." And it's really a key set, she said situation. You guys are in a relationship, we can't prove anything. There's nothing we can do about it. - I didn't report either and I try to remind myself about that being the best decision at the time that I made. And I just was feeling guilty for not even thinking about being able to file a restraining order because I was financially dependent on him as well. - And then that's another part where people like diminish what's happened to you 'cause it's like, "Oh, well, did you press charges?" And if your answer is no, automatically you lose credibility. If you really did that to you, you would have pressed charges as essentially what people believe. - There's no sure thing. So even if you had filed charges, I mean, I think if you looked at the statistics of people who do report how few people that the perpetrator actually is convicted. - Our facilitator from Rain, Megan Cutter jumped in to share a statistic. - 98% of perpetrators walk free and for every 1,000 sexual assaults, 50 reports lead to arrests, 28 cases lead to felony convictions, and only 25 perpetrators are sentenced to some form of incarceration. - These numbers shocked us. We knew that few perpetrators ever faced justice. But we had no idea it was this few. - On the next episode of Betrayal, we dig into one reason why. - I said, "That is not allowed. That is illegal. It's a crime. He can't do that. Come to find out. They're married. Come to find out. Here we are in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023. He probably was allowed to do that. - For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org/betrayal. That's r-a-i-n-n.org/betrayal. You can also get free confidential 27 support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text Hope to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at
[email protected]. That is
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[email protected]. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five Star Reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. The trail is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Caitlin Golden with additional production by Olivia Hewitt.
Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique LeBord, also produced by Ben Fenerman. Our associate producer is Leah Jablou, production management by Kristen Melcuri, additional support by Curry Richman. Our IHR team is Ali Perry in Jessica Crine Check, audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends, and family. Special thanks to Wilps Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. The roundtable discussion was led with the help of Rainne, the rape abuse and incest national network. Thank you to our facilitator Megan Cutter and to Angelina Marcano for her support. Additional thanks to Jennifer Simmons-Kaleba, a trail's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by MyB Music. For more podcasts from IHR, visit the IHR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or forever you get your podcasts. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge. And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an IHR True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to IHR True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for IHR True Crime Plus and subscribe today. Lisa, tell them about our new show! I'm Lexi Ivano, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Jelio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Listen on the IHR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or forever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of SCAM Goddess Podcasts, the True Crime Comedy Podcasts, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Ooh, I scammed them. What? Start listening to SCAM Goddess on the IHR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hamza, and I'm Martin, and we're the hosts of Out of Character. The funniest podcast in the entire world, I like that's a good way to promote ourselves. We are two funny guys having fun and enjoying ourselves, and we just know how to have fun unlike anyone else. If you guys like fun conversations, hot takes, what else? Not too hot, just kind of loop warm. Loot warm takes to get your mind thinking a little bit. Listen out of character on the IHR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.
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