Normalizing nehiyaw education with Ben Steinhauer

So welcome to Two Crees in a Pod. Today we are joined by Ben Steinhauer from Sally Crenation. We are in season four, episode eight, and it's been a while since Amber and I have recorded a podcast. I was thinking to you, I almost, I almost feel like I forgot. I'm forgetting how to do podcast, but you know once we had Ben here and just having these conversations, you know, it brings me back to this space and I'm really thankful to be here with both of you. So I'm going to hand it over to Ben and to Ben, I'll let you introduce yourself to our listeners. Thank you and thank you Terry for inviting me to be on this and I'll just go right into it. You know, my name is Ben Steinhauer. I come from the Sally Crenation from the Steinhauer family and I'm just going to talk a little bit about my background as Terry has invited me on here to kind of speak about my my unique standing as a a young indigenous person in our communities that I had a different upbringing in a way in a different education than a lot of other people is that my parents decided to educate me in our cultural system before I went and learned about education in Western school and Western society. Because I learned later in life that my dad had really wanted to preserve our culture and knowledge so that hopefully, you know, by me learning, you know, our culture before learning Western society, I would have a different perspective on the world or everything just going on and also in hopes of preserving our culture longer so that, you know, my children and grandchildren could benefit from our culture as well. So I'll kind of just start in the the beginning of my my life, my dad and mom didn't send me to school to, you know, school at all. They homeschooled me but it was their variation of homeschool and it was kind of interesting because I was thinking about it now as an adult. It was definitely an interesting prospect because it was very unique. It wasn't really following the curriculum system of homeschooling or a school system. My dad would take me around with him to ceremonies. My late was some Mike Steinhauer, you know, was had a lot of ceremonies. You know, we did sweats, you know, chicken dances, ghost dances, horse dances, bear lodge, all these different ceremonies. And we had a good connection and relationship with a lot of other families that did, you know, Sundance or all these other ceremonies. So I spent most of my young childhood, you know, from age is probably four and up just going to these ceremonies every week with my dad and my dad would bring me in and sit me next to, you know, one of the elders who was leading the larger my Muslim and they would they would sit there with me and kind of, you know, tell me what was going on. And so I learned, you know, kind of in that way, that was my school is I, I had to go to these lodges in these ceremonies and participate and to understand what was happening. So by the time I was eight years old, I had a really good understanding of all these ceremonies, you know, when I was about eight years old, my late Muslim Mike would, every time we would sweat, he would, he would get me to make the sweat fire. That was one of my jobs as a small kid because that was big enough to do it now. And he would instruct me all the way through it. He would even teach me, he taught me how to pray. He taught me how to offer tobacco. You know, when he would load his pipe, he would teach me how to load the pipe, handle the pipe. You know, how when he would go in and sweat, he'd teach me why we splash. How many times we splashed all of these things. And this was a daily part of my life every week. So it was kind of funny because, you know, all these other kids that had lots of cousins, well, they had to go to school. I had to go to the chicken dance, the sun dance, the sweater ceremony was going on. I had to go to that instead. And so my mom and dad did teach me how to of course read, write math, all that stuff, very simple, you know, stuff the basic needs and understanding for anyone at a young age. So they taught me all of that in the in our free time. But again, most of my time was spent learning these, these ceremonies. And also I had good exposure to the free language. So I could understand a good amount when I was young. And as I got older and, you know, became a teenager, my involvement became more on my own. My dad no longer said I had to go. I just went on my own. My dad would say, you know, there's a chicken dance, you know, when onion lake or there's a chicken dance in frog lake or sun dance, etc. And I'd say, okay, let's go. Or my late uncle Vincent Steinhauer, he always, he had lots of ceremonies. When my late, when some Mike passed, passed to my late uncle, my late uncle Vincent. And he started running these ceremonies. So I started helping him. And I was one of his, his main helpers again. And so everything I had learned as a child, I realized that had started unconsciously implementing all the time whenever I went to these things. And when my later teens, you know, I went through men's rights of passage and all these things. And my family really did their best to educate me on our understanding of, you know, your life, the laws, the way we live as well as our treaty, as treaty six people. And that was one thing that my family always stands out in my memory is my late was some Mike and all these elders like late James Cardinal, Eugene Cardinal, Raymond Cardinal, Louis McGilvery, George O. Cheese, right? George Breton, late Veronica Moran, and all these people, there's lots of them. You know, they used to always be in the, in the house and they'd be visiting each other. Talking and always listening to them and their concern for the future of our people and the future of our treaty. And the future of our young people because they, I always listened because I was left alone with them to listen in. And they would always speak about their concern about how are our people going to know who we are if they don't even understand our laws, our teachings or our language. How are we going to identify as create people if we have no culture, no language and no identity. And it was always a concern to them for how we were going to maintain our identity as indigenous people or where we just going to kind of disappear into the general population of the world. And we just become like everybody else colonized and just to assimilate it and just act like everybody. And so that was a concern of theirs. And I grew up listening to this on many different levels, not just, you know, on a day to day level, but also like a political level where Canada's recognition of indigenous people and the genocide and all the horrible things that had gone on here as well. And my family explained a lot to me about, they told me when I was little, like one day when you're older, you're the one that's going to have to face the really hard times. And I used to ask them what they meant. And they used to say because, you know, it was hard for us, but it's going to be hard for you in a different way because they said, for us, we did still have our language. We can speak it. We had an understanding of our language at a higher level. We had an understanding of our culture at a higher level. And there was lots of people we could ask for help from. They said, you, when you're an adult, there's going to be very few people. You will be able to look for help. And there will be very few people you'll be able to look to for language instruction because we're losing that so fast. And it's going to be up to your generation on whether or not you're going to step up to keep these things alive or have them be a part of your life anymore. And they said, that's a hard choice because it means you have to devote your life to keeping these things alive or to participate in these things. And they said that it's also up to you to maintain our treaties because when we're all gone, you're the next generation who need to be able to stand up against Canada to maintain who we are as indigenous people and our indigenous rights and our treaty rights and what that really means from our side, not their side. And they told me that that's what they meant when it said it's going to be hard for me. It's going to be hard for your, you know, all your cousins, you guys' generation have a lot of work to look into. So I grew up with that really strong notion of kind of always pushing me to think about what I was going to do. And it was interesting because as, you know, like I said earlier, when I became into my late teens, I really started looking at my life and how it was brought up because I had lots of cousins who went to school and did all these things. And, you know, me and my cousins hung out all the time. There was no real issue with that or anything. And I looked the one main thing I looked at was when I went to visit anyone in my peer group. There was such a loss of understanding of our culture, our treaties and our language. I could recognize that right away. That it was a huge difference looking at the way I was raised in comparison to how most people were being brought up in Western society because I looked at school. School doesn't teach you our culture, our language, nor does it teach you our values or what the treaty really means from our point of view. And so now as an adult, you know, I'm 26 now, I always look back at how much work my family kind of my dad, you know, put into kind of giving me the opportunity. And so I'm always really grateful for my unusual upbringing because I really do appreciate our culture and value our culture. And I really want to see our culture survive as well as our language and our ways of life because I think they're beautiful. And I was really, I'm very blessed. I always say I'm so blessed to be able to be given an opportunity to grow up with, you know, I didn't ever miss a ceremony because my family prioritized that. They said, no, there's a ceremony go there first. You know, whenever there is elders visiting, go see that elder, give them tobacco, ask them a question, go talk to them, make a relationship. You know, we're losing our teachers. You need to have as many teachers as you can because that way you can see the world from many different perspectives and many different ideas and you can collectively look at it with your own. And so it was a very, very positive upbringing. And so I'm really grateful I was, again, always grateful I was given that to be able to kind of bring myself to where I am and I get very unusual because, you know, I always look at all my peers there in school, university, all these things. And, you know, some of them are taking indigenous studies and I always find that interesting because they come back and they ask me, right? Okay, I have all these questions about indigenous studies. What do I do here? And I look at it all, right? And I'm like, well, I don't like what they're saying about this. And I don't know about that. I don't know about it. It's kind of interesting because, you know, I find that interesting that that's a course. But whenever I look at the courses, they're, they're, this isn't to make, this isn't to make light of anyone's hard work in making these courses. It's just that it's missing, a lot of it's always missing the spirit of our culture. You know, what our culture really means. And I always tell my family because I'm looked to in my peer group, my family to help them with kind of these things and understanding our culture sometimes because of the opportunity I got to spend that time with those elders. It's whenever I look at it, I always tell them that our culture isn't, isn't like because a lot of people compare, right, pre-culture or indigenous culture to a religion, right? Spirituality to a religion. And I was always taught as a, as a young boy that this, this isn't religion. We're not blindly following things. We're living a life of positivity and our culture is built around happiness, love, joy and respect. And that goes for everything in this world. And they said, it's just living a life of happiness, treating everyone you meet with, with respect, kindness, and you're not, you know, trampling or hurting everything around me. And so I always tell, you know, my peer group or people that ask me these questions that you don't think of it as a religion, you're not blindly following something, you're looking at it as a positive way of living. Our culture is very kind and gentle. So whenever you look at our, our treaty, especially, you know, when I get a lot of questions because people do presentations on treaty, I say, when you need to think about our side, our side was founded off love, right? Love, there was four teachings out. It was explained to me that these four teachings were a big part of our culture. And they were the first four laws that the creator gave us. And that's love, honesty, helping and strength. Because my elders told me that if you are able to at least live your life every day with these teachings being a part of every choice you make every day, you will have a healthy happy life. And that that is with a base that we formed that treaty off. They said, that's why we sign that X. That X is that four directions they told me. And it's each, each point of those four directions is one of those teachings. And that's why we put that symbol there. But they said that these, these, our visitors didn't interpret it that way. And so that's one of the problems they told me that our, there's two interpretations here. There's what they look at the treaty as. And there's what we look at the treaty as. And they said, you never forget our side because the treaty was based off our side, not their side. And so that's kind of where I've always done my best to learn from all of those things I was taught. And so kind of in a nutshell, that's basically my upbringing. Very unusual, you know, kind of difference. You know, I don't really know sometimes, like, it doesn't feel different to me, because that's all I knew. So now that I'm older, I'm like, oh yeah, that's definitely different, but it still doesn't feel different. It just felt like every day of my life. So, yeah, that's pretty much all I have to say about that for now. I don't know what else to say. I'm not good at that, you know, not good. There's so many things that, you know, and a couple of times you mentioned it being like an unusual upbringing. And I think that even just thinking about like and hearing that story and how that's so not unusual. Like really, when you think about it in the context of, you know, our people, like, that's quite normal. That's quite usual, right? And then I also was thinking about what you were talking about how, you know, what we see today, because, you know, Terry and I both work as social workers. And one of the things that we have seen is this, you know, punitive consequences or punitive consequences for children not attending public education. And that if children are not being sent to school, there has been a long narrative that those children are being neglected, or that those children have are experiencing, you know, automatically, it has to do with neglect, really, is what it's deemed as. And so not sending children to school has had really negative consequences for our people. Historically, you know, from a start of Indian residential schools to today. And so what I love to hear is this other story of where there was no punitive event if there wasn't punitive consequences for your parents, but really how you said something and you said, where is it? You talked about your parents ensuring you had different perspectives before going into public education or before being indoctrinated for the public education. And so I really appreciate that. And the last thing I'll say, and maybe you can expand on this, is when you were talking about how, you know, from a very early, from the time you were quite small until you were a teenager having these experiences first. And, you know, we think about like our turtle watch teaching is our understanding of child development and those different stages of child development. And, you know, you think about those stages of, you know, the happy, fast, wandering, you know, truth stages, all those stages that we believe are children that they must experience in order to quote unquote, move into those next stages and to have a full life. And, and I love how, you know, your story talks about that in those stages, I can, I was actually thinking about it. I was like, how like being being a small child and listening to everyone around you. And I mean, Terry and I have had these experiences when we were children as well. But having those times where you're just sitting there as a little kid and you're like listening to all the other older people in the room speak. And you're, and you're part of that. And there's an energy in those spaces that's so undeniable. Anyway, now around like, but you made me think about 17 different things then. But, but again, it's that I keep going back to that to how, how beautiful that is because again, the non, there's a message in that that we no longer have to believe and we never had to believe that by not sending our children to school, there's punitive consequences, you know, again, to indoctrinate our children. Anyway, I'm just talking, but thank you for saying that Ben. There's so many things that I'm writing notes about. I know you're welcome. I'm, I'm glad that that part is, you know, that it's, it's doing something for other people. That's always something that I find interesting is that again, like I said, it doesn't come off to me as like I don't notice the differences because it's every day for me, but I always appreciate that people get value or out of my, my, my existence, you know, I'm just kidding. That's always with my dad with joke about, when I was a little, is it one day you'll be valued? I said, why? Because you'll be alive when I was after. It's very funny. Because yes, I was given an opportunity to look at things from the art point of view. And again, you're right. It's, it's not really right to call it, you know, on an usual upbringing. It's really just my parents trying to bring me up the way we used to be brought up. And that's, that's really what it was was, you know, when it was hard, it was because like you said, there was no punitive consequences, but they had to argue with education authority for quite a few years because education authority said, well, you can homeschool your child, but you have to demonstrate a curriculum, right? You have to demonstrate a process. You have to demonstrate a grade. You have to, you know, all of these things, right? And my dad argued and said, you know, this is in our way, that's your way. That is your system. We are not from your country. You are in our country. You are a visitor. You have no right to enforce these upon us. You attempted to do this illegally through residential school already. And he said that you have no right. So it was a very long, you know, and of course, stressful battle for my parents. But in the end, they won. And it was, I don't actually know how. I don't, like I don't know how. I never actually asked, but obviously they won because we got left alone. They completely left us alone. And they never questioned me again, you know, they never questioned everything because when they wanted to demand a curriculum, my dad just said, well, this curriculum is to attend and learn our ceremonies, our culture and our language and everything you tried to take away. And that's what he told them, which is very strong, of course. And it's a delicate topic, even in all months, you know, when you get into kind of Canada and all of that stuff. So I'm sure it was quite the conversation would have liked to hear it now, but that's long since passed. And again, it's, it's a very interesting, even when I think about that, my dad alone kind of going up against, you know, education and fighting with them. It's very interesting because I think of my late grandfather, of course, went to residential school, you know, who was also in World War II and had all these different experiences. And one of the things he told my dad was, most of my life, I didn't have a choice of anything I could ever do. I didn't get to choose what I did. I didn't get to choose how I live. And I didn't get to choose whether I was a human. He said, if I chose this way, I wasn't human. I wasn't alive. I was bad. I was sick. There was always something wrong with me. He said, and he said, I was punished just for existing. And he said, I couldn't understand why these people punished us so much just for existing when we opened our hand with love and kindness. And so there's a very strong message for my dad. And I honestly think that that's what pushed my dad to do that for me was he really wanted to give me what he wanted. And that's what he wanted when he was little. He told me the story of when he had to go to boarding school and a Catholic boarding school, you know, and he said it was it was a horrifying experience. He was nine years old when they had to go. And he said it was something that still disturbs him now. And so he said that he wanted me to never experience the things that they experienced. He said, I wanted you to learn when things because you wanted to learn them, not because you had to learn them. And if you didn't, there is something wrong with you. So it's a very strong message, you know, especially for me. And I just think it's a strong message for people in general, especially Indigenous people, you know, we really need to maintain our culture and our beliefs as well. But also our human rights, you know, these things were taken away for so long that, you know, it's been so hard to bring back all of the things we've, you know, lost, but at the same time, you know, we have such a beautiful and loving kind culture that I kind of feel like giving it up could be such a huge loss. Now, you know, always pushing for all of our systems, you know, child welfare, education, every part of our system, you know, if you're on, if our reserves, if they have that opportunity to, you know, expand on our involving our system of education alongside their Western system. So that way they can co-exist as they were supposed to. I jotted a lot of notes down too. So I'm just going to go through a couple of them. And I think that, you know, at the very beginning, and I've heard this, and I don't know where I heard it from, and I should remember. And I don't know whether it was, it was set on a podcast or in conversation with somebody with an elder. Like, I feel like it was in circle with an elder. But there was, there was, there was something shared about, you know, our, our Western education, this Western education system will always be available. It will always be there. And, and, and I, and maybe even Ben, I feel like maybe you mentioned that in that lecture that we did together. And I think that we think about our lodges and I think about the importance of, of even just bringing, you know, my children into those spaces and taking them out of school to be in those spaces. And we've talked a lot about this in our podcast about the importance of that. And how those spaces offer us things that the Western school system cannot. And, you know, you also spoke about how the elder shared with you, how, you know, in, in your time and our time, in today, how will be a lot more difficult for us to look for others to help us or to even to understand the language or those language speakers. And, and I think like I see that now, even as I do my research in understanding traditional healing and understanding ceremony, as healing and understanding even the research within the language, there's just so much, there's so much information that, that we need to share within our own communities with our own children. And it's so important and, and Ben, you're 26 years old. Like, you're 26 years old and I've seen you speak, you know, in large groups. I know that you've, you've taught at the University of Blue Quills. And I've heard you speak when we've lectured together previously. And I can see the depth of knowledge that you have because of the education that you had with many elders and knowledge keepers from a very young age. Like, it's just, it's, it's beautiful to see. And I think that it's really important that we have, you know, people like you to be able to share that knowledge as a young man. And I think that, you know, you, you said something and it clicked and you talked about how your parents encouraged you to have many teachers. And to go out there and understand all these different perspectives. And as a young person, not as young as you, but as a young person, try to act. I have a shout out chime in, um, is that I have experienced, uh, elders are knowledge keepers. And again, like those who have maybe been impacted in some way with, with colonization and, and, and, and religion and, and different values and beliefs, but how that I, I'm to stay with one teacher. And I struggle with that because I feel like, and I'm very open-minded and understanding. And again, learning from all these different perspectives, um, and learning from many different elders, because there's so much knowledge that we can build on and that we can learn from different people. Um, and, and as you mentioned, you had many of that, you know, you had many opportunities to be with some of our, um, beautiful elders as a, as a young person and, and sharing that space. And so, my next question, I think, for you would be, uh, you've talked a little bit about men's rights of passage. And I just want to get your, I guess, your words in, in the importance of that for our men. Because we don't necessarily, we see it coming, we see this resurgence coming back with our camps and our cultural camps and our land-based, um, education opportunities within our communities, which is really great. Uh, but I just want to, if you could expand on that a little bit more, that'd be great. Sure. Yeah, so, you know, and to speak about the, the men's, the men's, you know, roles as well as our rights of passage is a very important thing as I was told that, uh, rights of passage as, you know, whether it's a male or female, the importance of rights of passage is it's the most, it's the part that teaches you how to make healthy choices in your life. This is where our old people would say to you, before you go out and seek an education and before you go out and seek a life, you have to know how to navigate life. You have to know how to make a choice. You have to know how things, you know, to know whether this is bad or this is good. This is right or this is wrong. You need no confusion. And this is the most important thing about men's rights of passage. And I felt the impact and those in my family that went through this felt the impact because you went into life, something as simple as what am I going to take when I go to university? You know, we struggle with that. All of us struggle with what are we going to do? Where are we going to go? You know, and this is such a huge question for everybody. And this helps so much with just being clear. So to kind of elaborate a little bit, men's rights of passage starts when you are a young boy and you get your first kill. Like as an example, that's providing for your family, whether it's like, you know, we looked at it long ago as, you know, maybe you got your first rabbit or your first duck or a goose or something small because the reason that we looked at that as something big was that meant that that boy was was now interested in learning how to provide for a family. This is providing. This doesn't just mean his own family in the future for his current family, right? We look after our parents, we look after our grandparents, our, you know, our family, our loved ones. And so the importance of that is now this this young, this young, this boy, because in Greek culture, you know, I was told to me that we look at it as you're, you're a child, you're a boy, and then you're just a man. There's no, there's nothing in between. You're, you know, you're a child, you're a girl, you're a woman. You know, that's how the it kind of goes. So, you know, that's how I was explaining. So once we get that, that first kill as a ceremony where the old women and your family, they'll cook that for you and defeat everybody because now you just fed your family for the first time, right? You fed your family and that's really important that you fed your family. And so from there, you would be educated upon things like the pipe fasting, you'd be sent out to fast where you go out and connect with your spiritual, you know, family or spiritually or ancestors. However, you want to kind of say that, but it's a connection in connecting to something that's not us. So it's giving us stability where we can be grounded and be in a place of you could even say meditation clarity. So we're able to look at things from a completely different side because lots of times, right? We struggle to look at things when there's chaos around us or our own family because you know, sometimes we don't get along with even you're sibling, they bug each other, you bug them, you know, this is such a small dynamic but we don't realize how much it gets in the way of us making decisions with more clarity. And that's how it's explained to me is that when you go out here alone in the bush, you know, we'll look after you, we'll sing for you every night, but you'll be out here alone learning on your own, experiencing things on your own and you'll have nothing to distract you and you'll be going through that that appreciation for food and water because you don't want to be fast, we don't drink or eat for, you know, four days and four nights. And when you do that for the first time, it's so hard, right? But when you're done, no matter who you are, when you first drink that water, you are like holy crap, this water is so good and it's like you don't even get it like you just can't even explain it, you just got to do it and then but then you realize holy crap, if I didn't have clean water to drink, where would I be? And that's what really hits you is where would we be without good water, you know, and the realization of how important water really is. And then you're hungry, right? The first time you eat, you're so hungry, you can only eat a few things because your stomach is shrunk so much but again, you then realize the importance of food and then you think how hard is it to go get food. Even today, it's not as easy as you think because think about it, we have to have a job to make money to go get food. We're still working to get our food even though it's not in the same way and there are a lot of people that don't have food. So when you really think about that, it helps you to really understand the importance and preservation of food and water and I grew up in a household where I saw food and water were very important. My dad was very like, there was no like, if I didn't finish my food, my dad finished my food, you know, there was never leftovers, you know, there was always, we ate everything, right? And my dad was always very clear on that. And you know, when I was really little, I didn't understand it as much but now after fasting and going through the men's rights capacity was a really strong thing and I always believe that that's such an important thing for everybody to go through because it's not a huge thing but it really changes your perspective of just how we live and how we eat and what we do. And that really is life changing on its own because that clears up a whole portion of your life, you look at food different, you look at water different, your gratitude for your family being able to food you, it feeds you, all this good food, it becomes so much stronger, you know, you really learn to appreciate the things you're given more. You know, and that's one of the beautiful things again about the rights of passages. It gives you the opportunity to look at things from such a clear perspective and I was, I used clear the word clear because there's no, nothing else. You just, you know, when you're thirsty and you have no water and you get water, it's totally crap, that water was so good, it's so beautiful, it's so important. You're not thinking, oh, that was okay, I could go for another six days without that. It's just real clear, it's, I need water, I need it now, you know, and so that's what I mean, but it really helps everything become clear because after your first fast, you go for another fast the next year, but you already are expecting that feeling, you've gone through that. So now that clarity shifts to other places and that's what's important about it is it gives you, now you can put that clarity into whatever you want and that gives you an opportunity to really change your life. Just a little short kind of story is my brother, my older brother, he's 22 years older than me, really struggled as a young person, like he was very, and there's a lot of anger and just, you know, everyone struggles, everyone has struggles and you know, he fasted just once, but after that fast, his life changed completely. You could, you know, it was so much easier, there was so much more clarity. So I always looked at that because, you know, the first time I was going to fast, I was nervous, you know, and my dad said, don't you'll be fine, you're, you're going to be okay. And he said, just remember, we've all done this and he said, you will be happy you did it. And I was, you know, when I came out, I was, I was happy I did it, even though it was scary and I had thirsty and hungry, but when I came out, it was like, I'll do that again, that was great, you know, and so I've done it for many years and that's mainly the one, because once you kind of get into that, you continuously are able to ground yourself. And for everybody, this goes for everybody, I still believe that one of the most important teachings in our culture, which is always part of rights and passage, is we need to be taught how to make healthy choices, because our entire life is just a bunch of choices. And if we can't make those healthy choices, we go through the system of trial and error more so than ever, but a lot, some mistakes I was told, it's okay to make mistakes, but you can't take back mistakes. And some mistakes are much bigger than others, and you live with them for the rest of your life. And so then when I was, you know, fast, and he said, but what if you had the knowledge ahead of time not to make that mistake? So you'd know, if you chose this, you knew it was coming instead. So you had a clear path, it's either, I go this way, I get hurt, I go this way, I'm happy. Now you pick on your own with the full knowledge of what each choice brings, rather than looking at it as just a fork in the road where you're like, I don't know which way I should go. You know, and that's how it's explained to me is that that's really important to their, without getting into too much detail, because there's like a lot of protocol, there's a lot of detail, right? You know, I went through many days and years and years of being taught things by elders, to kind of fully encompass what the men's rights of passage is, but that's where it's initiated is, through your first kill, because you're learning how to provide for a family, and as a man, your role in life is to provide for your family. You know, for a woman on that side, we all know that's when they answer their first wound time, because then after that they can take care of a family. You know, and these are the two sides, and so for men, we need to really learn how to take care of a family, and also what that really means to indigenous people, because it's not just, I got money and I can give you the money, and you can have food. It's loving your family, treating them with respect, having good relationships, raising your children with health, being a good role model, walking ahead, and standing in front, and doing whatever you can to ensure the health and future of your family. That's so much, right? And that's such an important thing, because when you really think about that, that's what everybody tries to do already, but in our culture, going through the rights of passage, you're just given a whole bunch of extra tools to navigate life in an easier way, and that's the simplest way to look at it. These are a whole bunch of tools that help you walk through life and make things easier, so that anytime you're stuck and go, "I don't know what to do, I'm stuck, I'm stressed, I'm panicking, I can't do this, I'm out of this, you're at that place, you just go to that place in our culture and come right back with the answers." And I can say that that's what I've done my whole life, every time I've stuck, I just go back to that place in our culture that I learned from, I get the answers, and I come back, and I carry on. So that's just really short. Again, it's hard to explain, there's many different teachings, there's many different things I learned from many different elders on the same topic. So again, there's so much stuff, but really what it simply is, is it's the teaching system to show you how to make good choices in your life as a young man, and how to walk a path in life that will be healthy, and how it will benefit you in the future. That's what it is. It is to teach you how to be a healthy human being. That's the simplest answer of what men's rights of passage is and rights of passage in general. Before you start, I was thinking of something that you said at the end, because I remember just in conversation, probably in the last, in the last little while, I feel like, when people are coming, and sometimes it's not indigenous people saying, "I don't know what to do," or, "How am I supposed to deal with this situation?" My response is go to the bush, go sit out in the bush for a while, and they don't get it, but again, it speaks to that piece of the clarity and the help that we get in those spaces. So we are closing up to wrapping up, but I'll hand it over to you, Amber. I know you have, I could see your mind going on the screen. And I won't take too much time. I think one of the good reminders that you gave us then was about how Western education and colonial education, or Eurocentric education, focuses on cognitive imperialism, which basically is about, if you can read, right, and speak the English language really well, then you graduate to being an economic citizen which supports capitalist culture, right? That's the underpinning of Eurocentric education is to make us consumers, and it's all about capitalist culture, whereas with Indigenous education or our knowledge systems, it's about locating gifts, and about ensuring that every single child, Indigenous child, locates their gift or gifts, and that they are connected to, we talked about this on another podcast with Dr. Michael Hart, and we talked about Terry and I had a question, and that question was around calling our spirits back, or what do we do when people are disconnected from culture, or sorry, from spirituality? And he challenged us to think about it differently, and he said, can you ever really be fully disconnected from spirit? Can you ever be fully disconnected from spirit? If it's all around us, then how are we disconnected from it? And he said, maybe the question is, instead, maybe we just can't recognize it, or thinking about the recognition of spirit when it's around us, and I think that that's one of the things that, again, really brings true when you were talking, then was around those very clear differences about, again, Eurocentric capitalist, consumerism, cognitive imperialism, and Indigenous education, and again, really about, like you said, locating gifts so that you can live up good life, and it sounds super simple, I know it's much more complex than that, as we know, but that really is the essence of it, isn't it? It's about locating your gifts so you can live up good life and being connected to your spiritual family. And so I want to thank you for that reminder, because that's what was going on, and that's what you saw happening in my brain, Terry. And so I'm just thankful for not yet, thank you for that reminder. So as we are wrapping up, I want to leave the closing comments to you, Ben. If there is anything that you feel that you want to share with our listeners, that you feel is important for our listeners to know. Well, the only thing I can really think of, just to say is that we all struggle, you know, especially Indigenous people with regaining our culture and being, it's hard to sometimes go learn these things, because where do we learn them? And some of these people are unapproachable, but I always say that you just need, if you're, this culture is beautiful, this culture is kind, don't be afraid of it, don't be afraid to go learn it, don't be afraid to have, be a part of your life, because it will always help you, it will always be there to look after you. And to just keep doing your best to, you know, learn as much as you can about it, you know, as all of us as Indigenous people, treaty people of this land, to be able to just have the kind of courage to step forward and go learn a little something, just little things, even if it's something small, it's something, and it may help you one day, and that that's something I always think of, and I always say, don't be afraid to go learn, I was afraid to, but I went and I learned, and I'm grateful I went, there's always that experience we all have where we're afraid to do something, but then after we go through it, it's weird, we're not regretting it anymore, because we realized how good it was, and what we really got out of it, it's just that, just that first part of, don't be afraid to go learn your language, go learn your culture, to put that language in culture, you know, to implement it through school, wherever you work, and all those things, because, you know, this is our home as Indigenous people, and this falls for every Indigenous person of Turtle Island, right? Our culture and our languages, they belong here, they're for us and they're for our help, so never be afraid to go learn your language, your culture, anything to do with it, you know, it'll help you always, and that's all I can really think of saying. Awesome, thank you, and so thank you for joining us, then on Two Prees and a Pob, we were really looking forward to this episode with you, and again, you know, we could probably sit here for a couple of hours and learn from you then, so we want to thank you, I even ask one for sharing your, your knowledge and your life with us, you know, and your time, and so we're just very, very thankful. Thank you very much, and I appreciate the invite and being included, and on just doing my best to share, I'm not always the best, it's one that comes to talking with myself, like I said, I just did my best, so, you know, I always hope I didn't offend anybody or I made any comments, and I'm just trying to do my best to share whatever I, whatever I know, and to answer your questions as best I can. Thank you. Let's go, they pushed us to this point, frustrations of a common man, manifest the destiny preaching, pledged to promise land, I'm stuck between taking my journey, live with no honor, like what's the use of my kids, can't taste clean water, a child born into a world, revolutions how to choice, I'm fighting to be her, so we make them hear our voice, remember ancestors anguish like me in our veins, hear it in the language, when our kitchen for the rain, I am product of people that persevere, persecutient, paint me so creator sees me, if I go while chewing, experience our pain, when our women disappear, dating, I'm anxious to be angry, pacifists might hate me, trolls on the internet constantly trying to bait me, we move in silence, cover up the night, learning from the woods, in the forest, tracking enemies in the woods, reincarnations of warriors, writing for salvation, or all we false prophets when we submit to temptation, for complenization is a hell of a drug, we all seem to know crazy when we fall in love, I say complenization is a hell of a drug, we all seem to know crazy when we fall in love, I say complenization is a hell of a drug, we all seem to know crazy when we fall in love, I say