24. Nontraditional Students: My Experiences, Advice, & Reflections From My Nontraditional Academic Path

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to a chat with Uma, with me, your host, Uma R. Chatterjee. On this podcast, I bring together all of my roles as a neuroscientist, researcher, board certified mental health peer specialist, mental health advocate, community builder, and a survivor with lived experience to bring you honest and unfiltered conversations, exploring our true human experiences in their fullest form. Every week, I'm bringing you conversations bridging the gap on all things neuroscience, psychology, mental health, lived experience, advocacy, psychedelics, and more. This is a space for raw unfiltered truth, to truly explore ourselves for who we are and how we are. I cannot wait to connect with you, answer all of your questions and co-create this with you. Welcome to a chat with Uma. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of a chat with Uma. Today, I am going to be sharing all about my journey as a non-traditional student, a someone who has taken a very unconventional path to get to where I am, as now officially a PhD student in neuroscience. And the reason that I am doing this episode, and then I'm doing it now, is because I have received endless questions from so many humans, from so many walks of life, about my path as a non-traditional student, because it is something that is by definition of the word non-traditional. It's a minority. It's something that is not typically done, though I think there's so much room for the population of us as students to grow, and I'll get into why. But yeah, it's just not talked about very much, and I know for a fact that on my path as a non-traditional student, like I didn't really have any resources. I didn't even have the term, honestly, for quite a while, until I started having to define myself as a certain type of student when applying to grad school. So I just really wanted to take this time right now to answer so many of the questions I've received. A lot of them are the same thing, really just asking me about my story and my journey and my advice for people, and I have so much to share on that, and I'm doing it now, because as of around September 2023, though I'm sure you could listen to this at any time and get benefit, it's a particularly important time for people who are in academia, especially for people who are, either just like going through the traditional cycle of going back to school or thinking of going back to school, or maybe you are a non-traditional student and you're undergrad and you're considering applying to grad school or taking future steps, and just this inadvertent cloud or dark cloud almost that feels like it's hanging above you with the title or occupying the space as a non-traditional student, and honestly, that really breaks my heart that that exists. Yeah, that's the reality we're living in. So I am just here to be one of many voices that are sharing our true experiences as a non-traditional student. And of course, every experience is completely different with different circumstances and details and the ways that our past and journeys played out let alone how we move forward with that identity and like what we do with it. So of course, on the one hand, this is just my story and my experience, that being said though, I know that so many of you have asked about that experience because on the other hand, so much can be generalized from someone's experience in terms of just greater lessons and mindsets and things to look out for and just kind of a real evaluation of the stereotypes and the misconceptions and the fears around being an non-traditional student at least from my perspective. So I really hope that this is supportive to anyone who takes up that space, who identifies with that label. And I particularly hope that this episode on top of future episodes, kind of in this like unofficial series, I suppose, maybe we'll make it official, I don't know, but this series of episodes to really speak to the experience of, yeah, you've been through some shit and/or you have made different choices than the typical path that is prescribed for us or the timeline that we are told is the quote, unquote normal timeline. And through all of that, you have now decided to engage with education on a higher level for whatever motivates you. And with that, there are a lot of unique hurdles and boundaries and experiences because of the label that's put upon you and also because of just the realities of navigating many parts of life at the same time that doesn't typically happen on the like 18 to 22 college route. And then really speaking to, if you're that person, like getting back into school and what that's like as well as then doing the thing, getting your degree and deciding you want to do something further in education or specifically really anything that you want to do beyond an undergraduate degree that hinges on your journey and the telling of your journey as an undergraduate. So anything like graduate school or professional degrees or anything like that. This episode's really here to support you to normalize this experience to help you reflect on your own experience through just the reflections and the way that I speak about my own, 'cause this is something I'm extremely passionate about advocacy wise. And I just really hope that this episode in particular at this time supports you in this really critical period in the year, this fall time where people again are like deciding to go back to school and to go through the admission cycle and even more so. Like this is the general admission cycle for many graduate programs. And so needing to consider this label and this identity and how the hell we package this for sharing ourselves in our story in a way that is received as best as possible. If not in a way that empowers people to see us as worthy and capable for different reasons that are not possible as a traditional student. So this is my story as a non-traditional student and everything I can possibly think of to answer your questions about my journey and my reflections of my advice and anything that fits into that category. And then I'll definitely be doing other episodes specifically relating to applying to graduate school, especially for biomedical degrees, since that's obviously what I did, as well as applying to psychology degrees and things like that, 'cause I've also done that as a whole other story. But yeah, I hope this series is really supportive and we'll start with my story as a non-traditional student. Just a quick few announcements before we begin. Number one, I am so excited to share that I now have a full resource of my website called Features where I have so many of my past events that happen to be recorded and available publicly or at least unlisted to be shared with y'all in one place. That answers just so many questions about my research and my advocacy and there's just an amazing number of events I've had, the privilege of doing on my own and with beautiful people in these communities to just share our experiences and hope and my research as well. And so I'm just really excited to finally have my life together enough to have all of this on ever growing page on my website so that that way, like, when asked for resources or like just where's this event, where's that event, especially if people can't attend to just have it all in one place for easy access. So that's gonna be linked in the show notes. There's a ton of events on there. I think some of my favorites or at least the ones that are coming to mind that I get asked the most about are number one, my talk at Breaking Convention this past year. It's a 30 minute talk all about my research at the intersection of psychedelics and its effects on PTSD and comorbid OCD. I've done many different versions of this talk in this presentation, but this one's a 30 minute version. It was at this incredible conference that is, you know, recorded and streamed everywhere. And it also really like provides a primer of my experience as a person and like, how my lived experience informed my research, which is a huge component of the way I've navigated my life as a researcher and an advocate. So I would recommend watching that just get to know me in my research and my interests and where I'm coming from better if that's something that interests you. Also, I have many advocacy videos on there. A lot of things with the International OCD foundation. So there's particularly one that's really, really powerful to me. It's called grieving, time lost to OCD. With some amazing other advocates and clinicians in the field with some of my favorite people, Reverend Katie O'Don, Ethan Smith, Chris Tronston, Allegra Castins, and Kimberly Quinlan. It's just a really raw and vulnerable and open and honest conversation on the time lost to OCD and mental illness and just grief in general about time lost to horrible things. I think it relates to far beyond OCD as well. And in contrast to what I just shared about me as a researcher, like this is just super, super vulnerable and open. And I have no filter in general, but especially not on that one. So I would recommend that as a resource for anyone looking for support and navigating time lost to horrible experiences that we didn't have control over. And the last thing that comes to mind, which actually is extremely relevant to today's episode, is my presentation with the aspiring scientists coalition on my non-traditional path and how that path led to my research and my very unconventional way of pursuing my research projects in form by my lived experience with Dr. Ben Rein and amazing science communicator who you definitely have seen on TikTok or Instagram. It was such an honor to do that event. And all of those recordings are available in full on my websites. So just check out the link below in the show notes or just head to my website, umaarchattergy.com/feedback. And you'll get access to all of those there. And my other announcement is that I am so excited to now have a coffee, coffee, man, I really need to figure out how to put it out of the site. But I'm gonna go with coffee for now. A coffee page open to support me by work in this podcast because so many of you beautiful humans have been asking if there's any way to support me for my work and the work that I put out for you all that you feel benefit from, which is such a privilege and honor and joy to hear reflected back because that's all I'm here to do to just be of service and to share as much as I can and to make things accessible and open. And I really appreciate you seeing the time and effort and the bandwidth that I put into all of these free ways that I show up. And so I am just grateful to now have this page for you to support me if you feel called to, never expected, but always, always appreciated. So if you're interested in checking it out and supporting me to be able to continue to do this work, it will be linked in the show notes or just go to k-o-fi.com/umar-chattergy. And there you'll just find whatever way you'd like to support me on a one time or monthly basis. And it's just especially appreciated because all of the things I do are a one person job right now. It is completely me in the midst of being a full-time PhD student and an advocate and the kind of the million roles that I have in different organizations, which I take on with so much gratitude and honor and pretty much everything related to this show and everything that it creates comes obviously from my own time as well as my own resources to just cover the basic costs of being able to put this podcast together and all of the technology and the many, many softwares that go into what you hear right now. So if you feel called at all to support that and to help me continue to sustainably grow the show and continue to show up in the way that I am, I would just be really appreciative. And I, again, just am so grateful to all of you for being so supportive and kind and really reflecting to me the value that you feel because it really just continues to inspire and motivate me to continue showing up and helps me know that what I'm doing is of service and that's all I'm here to do. So if you're interested, go to the link in the show notes for my coffee page and I really appreciate it. So in order to talk about my journey and my trajectory as an traditional student, I need to briefly take you back to kind of the time where I did start college because for me I did started 18 and you're going to hear how that transpired and what went down after that. But I'm just going to set the stage for you briefly as to where I was and what contributed to me leaving. Just so you understand like where the non-traditional aspect came in and how that was kind of building up this whole time. And of course I have to say from the beginning that not all non-traditional students like start college at 18 and then have to drop out or go to another school or anything like that. That was just my case and this is my story. But a lot of the principles and nonetheless the label of non-traditional student can be up on people who started at 18 or who didn't, who starting at 50 or like at 25 or whatever. So that label really just applies to anyone who is an unconventional student. And I guess you know what before even getting into my story let me just define a non-traditional student. So conceptually a non-traditional student is kind of exactly what it sounds like. It's a student who did not follow the typical trajectory or path of a post-secondary student or a college student. So that could be basically someone who did not go straight into college after high school at around the age of 18 or I suppose whenever they graduated high school. And it's also someone who did not graduate within four to five years upon starting from their degree at let's just say 18 but really referring to whenever they graduated from high school. It's also someone who took any because of you know inherent in not graduating within four to five years is also the idea that they might have had to leave or take a extended break for whatever reason as well as starting later as well as potentially having to have worked through college full-time in a way that's not traditional because yes a lot of college students have jobs but having to work 35 hours or more per week while enrolled can generally by definition constitute someone is not traditional or attending part-time for at least part of the academic year can be considered financially independent, at taxation wise which is generally people who are older, definitely over 26 but don't quote me on that. Also people that have dependence other than a spouse or people that don't have a high school diploma when they're starting college so they completed with the GED or some sort of other high school completion certificate or did not even finish high school. So there's many different criteria that could constitute as a not traditional student. I was reading some of that off of the you know national center for education's website but really and truly it's someone who did not leave high school, graduate high school, go to college, graduate within four to five years and like do the normal thing. So that's the basic definition. Now circling back and getting into how my particular journey as a non-traditional student kind of transpired and the background that set me up for this path was written again this is going to be super like TLDR high-level overview. I will link in the show notes episodes that go in great depth about these parts of my life that have a lot more detail than I'm going to share here today and they're probably worth listening to because they really really shape who I am and informed the way I share which if you're just not tuning into the podcast, hello and welcome and definitely check those out to just learn more about like my very strange trajectory because these are this is one of the least um not normal things about me but anyway getting to my framework of like where I was out so I was 18. I did graduate high school on time although like barely and I had to do like weeks and weeks of of like additive basically sitting in school for hours to like 8 p.m. to make sure I had enough attendance hours to graduate which speaks to where I was at at the time partially but anyway I got by with a skin of my teeth to like the end of high school. I started college and I should not have started college. I was extremely dysfunctional, extremely sick, physically, mentally, long story short I had like undiagnosed autoimmune diseases that were extremely severe and untreated obviously they're undiagnosed so I it was really bad. It was very severe Hashimoto's thyroiditis, hydrogenitis superativa, polycystic ovarian syndrome, fibromyalgia and extremely debilitating and severe psychiatric mental illness conditions so undiagnosed and untreated obsessive compulsive disorder on a very severe extreme level undiagnosed and untreated post-traumatic stress disorder, diagnosed but not very well treated major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety disorder. It was I was a clusterfuck okay so like I just couldn't function and I was trying so hard to function and it just was not possible and I did not know why. I went two years attempting college I ended up leaving at the end of my sophomore year with a 1.83 GPA and largely that was due to the fact that I could barely go to class or retain any information perform or function because my brain wasn't working, my body wasn't working, I had no idea why and without any context or understanding of why I was struggling so badly and why I could not do anything with myself and again details of these years and how those disorders and diseases impacted by functioning are all in previous episodes but really for the purposes of this episode I internalized within me after those two years and having a 1.83 GPA that I just don't belong here I'm not capable I shouldn't be doing college this is stupid I'm stupid and I need to do like the one thing that I know or I'm good at doing which singing which is something you probably don't know about me if you haven't heard previous episodes because you are probably tuning in with seeing me as a neuroscientist, a PhD student, a researcher, a mental health advocate, blah, blah, blah, all the stuff, right? But a huge part of my life actually in the past was being a singer songwriter, being a performer from the time I was a child. I was basically just put in like a bunch of prodigy camps and like, had perfect pitch and was performing and it became my only source of self-esteem. And so when I left college after two years, the reason I left was number one, I was like failing and I could not do it. And I really truly couldn't and I stand by that statement because at that time I couldn't and I have since then, but that's because I have recovered and gotten the tools to do so. But at the time I could not do it. And I felt like the only thing I could do was music because it's the only thing I really, it just came naturally and I, with the little faculties I had, like if not any, like I didn't have to put much effort into it to be quite honest with you. And I cared about it enough to do it because it yielded me self-esteem and it is a creative expression. So I left my psychology bachelor's degree after two years from a major university and then I transitioned to music school and I did that for almost three years. And then again, long story short, I'm skipping over a lot of stuff, but long story short, I was in music school for three years, it was a virtual remote program through Berkeley College of Music. And so I was able to get all of my classes at Berkeley while still being able to tour and perform and have shows in the places where I'd already garnered like a following and a presence which was Dallas, Texas at the time. I was like, had lining my own shows and things were going pretty decently because again, like I don't even attribute this to like my work, my hard work or anything. It was just I had perfect pitch. I had voice that I was given and I was using it and it was working and great, cool. And people were really supportive and it was awesome. Then pretty suddenly I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer which that became metastatic thyroid cancer. I went through pretty intensive surgery to remove my entire thyroid gland and all the cancer attached to it. And in the process, there was a less than 1% chance that this would happen. But I was one of those people where my vocal nerves were at the time irrevocably damaged. And basically I lost my singing career and my capabilities saying, I mean, I couldn't even speak for like three months and I had to go through really intensive rehab and vocal treatment to be able to speak. And I've regained a lot more function than I thought would be possible. But none the less I had to leave music school. And truth be told, it wasn't going super swimmingly either. Like I did pretty fine for a while because I was completely just writing on the co-tales of my like natural ability that I did not earn or practice for. But simultaneously, all of the issues that existed while I was in college also existed. And we're still undiagnosed and untreated for the most part in this time. And I was really just becoming unable to like do my work or even get my music worked on because I was just so freaking dysfunctional. I could like hardly function in life, let alone in school. So that was already not going super great at that time. But nonetheless, like I also then had this horrific thing happen at the time. At least it felt horrific to me. And I had to I had a choice but to leave a vocal performance degree given that I couldn't sing anymore. So I'm sending there at now 23 years old, like one on earth, though I do with my life. And as I said, I had been completely dysfunctional and debilitated by things that I had started to finally in this time of like rock bottom, like start to get diagnoses and start to get some help. And it was a long process of recovery, which again is definitely put into detail in past episodes. But all that to say, like in that process, I had to re-evaluate my whole life. And I can tell you that the very last thing I ever thought I was ever going to do, like ever was go back to get my original bachelor's degree, especially at the university where I got a 1.83 GPA because of the just horrendous associations I had and the deeply inherent belief that I'm not capable and I don't belong there. Yet given my circumstances where I was living at the time and not being able to do music school anymore, having really no purpose or understanding of like what I was doing with my life. And because of the very precarious nature of my health, my cancer treatment, and everything else, I really needed to stay where I was, which was Dallas for the foreseeable future, especially in that like immediate time. And so through a lot of treatment, a lot of reflection, and a lot, a lot of support from the people who love me, especially my husband, I faced my biggest fear and I went back to school. I went back to that original degree that I had a 1.83 GPA. And I suppose this is where it transitions from me sharing my background and the stage of what built up to me on a high level, like being a non-traditional student to then actually officially embodying the title of non-traditional student, which again, it's not like a fully like binary like this is before and after. But I would pick this point because up to this point first like I had left the original degree. So I by definition wasn't a student anymore. And then with my second degree, I was still within the bounds of the age and I didn't really take a break between the first and the second, other than the summer to get some surgery and health treatment, which is normal people take summers off. So it's at this point that I'm 23 years old. I'm going back and starting this degree again, especially after substantial time off from the time that I left music school and was going through intensive cancer treatment and like then treatment for lots of the other things I had mentioned, before. And so yeah, I was coming back as someone who was older, who was far, I suppose if you're going to be comparing to the traditional path, which I hate doing, but for the purposes of illustrating what non-traditional students are, I in my degree was far behind other people my age, given that they would have been graduated by now at 23. So I mean, I came in and I can tell you how it felt already, it was just someone who obviously I had been through shit. I had been through extremes and I had left and I'd come back to that original degree like almost four years later. So it already felt very different. I also just felt different from other students because in my classes, I was sometimes the oldest person, sometimes there were older people and other non-traditional students which honestly maybe feel so much better and sometimes they were like parents, they were, you know, grandparents even in their 40s, 50s, 60s just coming back for the love of learning or, you know, to get a degree after not having the chance to any younger age, so many different walks of life. But I just from an internal self-concept already was like joining and identifying as like a group of people who were coming with a different purpose, a different intention, a different way of living and being. And also, I was treated that way and it wasn't necessarily bad in that specific circumstance of just being in class. Like I was maybe looked at a little weird but I also, you know, was able to share my story and to offer wisdom and support to some of the youngins who were just really caught up in the thick of things that felt really big that I could just provide some support around like knowing that they'd move through and it'd be okay. But then also with professors and teachers and people related to faculty and even administration, just, you know, having extra questions about my path when I would disclose like and introduce myself and really just having added context about my role as a student and the way I showed up and the way I asked questions and also specifically for me, which could relate to other people going back to school after really shitty grades like having to retake classes and, you know, your transcript being evaluated even being on, you know, suspension or probation because of past grades like that all informs the way one would navigate their discussions and their relationships with professors and just having to perform academically and having to check in with different centers. And you know, I don't know that I've said this on the podcast before but it's not something I hide at all. Like obviously with a 1.8 GPA that is not passing, that is extremely poor. I don't really even know if you could get a degree with that GPA and I definitely didn't finish that way but that's where I was starting when I came back and so when I came back I was immediately considered on probation from basically like my backlog of what I had done years past and so I was automatically put on like special lists and I had to check in with a lot of different officers and, you know, centers and make sure that I was not failing out or else I'd probably not be able to complete this degree and I would have to barring very extreme circumstances like fully abandon a degree. Like this was my second chance in the university's eyes and so that was also a punctuating aspect for me of being a non-traditional student because of course there are people that are traditional students who do experience that identity and being labeled as such. But they didn't necessarily take a break or a long break and for me, I'm like coming back a different person Like truly a different person four years later Attempting these same classes and being faced with the hauntings of my past and so that kind of informed just myself concept as well At the same time though like I in my particular experience the reason I was able to go back to school At all like to even face that and to even attempt that and to you know I started with three classes my first semester and then once I like showed myself I could do it by making all a's not all hundreds in Some of the hardest classes which I'll get into that in a little bit But because of that like I became full-time very quickly and then finished my degree and whatnot but That was a really interesting evolution for me of whole like letting go of the identity of someone who couldn't do it but also being humbled and remembering where I came from and What I overcame to be a student and I think that mentality really informed the way I expressed and shared myself as an applicant and future endeavors and really just The attitude I had of being in school and what that meant to me and I know that that's not the same thing for everybody But I do think that all non-traditional students at least from my experience and talking to other people they have a meaning and a story and a Just belief if not most will believe that they Hold and carry that guide them through their journey in a way that maybe traditional students don't because it's just It's the default right? It's like not something that someone's super reflecting on typically I'm not saying everyone like there might be some traditional students who did deeply reflect on it But for the most part if once following a path and almost on autopilot It's not like a fully active choice to be doing what they're doing but for anyone who's not traditional as a student it Almost my definition is a choice to be there and so there's a lot more meaning and Intentionality put into that so I think that informs both how we see ourselves and how we Concentralize our story and why that's important in terms of moving forward with that ultimate label on our transcript and on us I guess it's not on our transcript but by looking at our transcript We're automatically labeled as a non-traditional student. So that's kind of just a side tangent on self identity and concept But let me get back to my trajectory. So as I said before briefly I Went back this was if time matters. I was 23. This was January of 2020 So right before the pandemic hit but I did have a solid few months completely in person in the total traditional classroom experience before Should hit the fan not for me academically, but just in general, but anyway, so I come back to school. I'm absolutely terrified I am under the watch of several people and department people and centers to make sure that like Like grades don't just go back to where they were and all of the classes I was taking I had decided with my therapist at that time to start with three just so like Take a good number of classes, but also like not be full-time so that I could just at least Work through what would come up for me with past experiences and the compulsions I used to do in class and just like ease into it in a sense that being said though. I did take For whatever reason which now feels really resonant given that now I'm a neuroscientist like at the time It was a psychology undergrad, but at my university we were required to take neuroscience class Because it was a bachelor of science and I had immediately failed at class the first time I still have screenshots because it's just so wild to me how much things have changed But I made an F in that class like and I did I mean I don't even know if I took the second or third exam, but like I also did not have the spoons or bandwidth to even Take the time to drop out or withdraw if that does not tell you like the state of dysfunction I was in at the time, but I had completely failed and it was something that I was just like there's no way in absolute hell I will ever take that class or understand it or be able to function in a You know any level of biologically driven class like that's just way too much for me and coming back to undergrad, I don't know Why I had the courage to do this, but I was like if I Can't pass the neuroscience class or if I can pass this neuroscience class and I can probably do the rest of my degree But I have to like see if I can at least pass this class that I deemed to be the hardest thing and I don't even have to make an A or a B I just need a pass and maybe I'll take it again even if I don't make it a or B, but I just want at least pass and So I took that class and two other ones and not only did I pass but I Almost made a hundred in that class which was so wild to me and I just had such a rapport with the professor who was an MD PhD And who really believed in me and supported me as someone who was coming back and an nontraditional student who knew a lot of Why I had left and why I'd come back because I felt the need to share that just to explain some of the um Perhaps like needing to leave the class if I'm too overwhelmed or triggered or just like the compulsions that I would try to not do and just like I just had shared some of my story with him and so It was really surprising to me that that happened and that I think feels like the They what pushed the gas pedal down and like okay, I'm gonna get this degree done and honestly like I had no Conceptor intention of like doing anything with a degree I at that time had been working a lot in business management and online like business support and I figured that like I had this girls that to just kind of do that and make a decent living and I didn't I was so sick for so long that I didn't really know That there was a life of vitality for me, but at least that was some stability So I didn't need this degree to do that. I just wanted to do it to do it and so I was just like I'm gonna get this degree done and I did and I just went ham doing all of my classes I was taking you know six classes at a time four in the summer like So far beyond my capacity also while still working full time and then I ended up graduating at 25 in August of 2021 and a lot of the reason it took that long was not just because I had to finish the degree but also I retook Almost all of the classes that I had previously failed Between the time that I first went to college and the time I came back there's a policy change At the time before you could retake any class and you could still To be able to improve your GPA But then unfortunately when I came back there was a rule that if you made anything see or above Then you couldn't retake it so that limited the number of classes I could retake I mean most of them I had failed so I could retake most of them But there were some that were really stupid like guitar class that I had made a see in and like I couldn't retake it And it reflected nothing about my degrees one of those stupid electives that I took but anyway I Through that process from coming back and then graduating two years later I brought my GPA up from a 1.83 to a 3.51 which if you just hear a 3.5 out of four you're like That's average. It's fine. But for me that's just so beyond monumental for me because It was from a 1.83 and it was just so representative to me not of Just like being someone who's like a worthy or someone who just like you know ranks well or whatever like I'd even made the deans list sometime like none of it It wasn't about that or I guess I mean I'm a human so it was mostly not about that It was mostly about the fact that something that I thought was completely fully impossible Was possible and I did it and I completely surpassed any expectation I had of myself or belief that I was capable and that just I think opened the door for me to just that in combination with my recovery and my healing journey and just Improving in so many aspects of my life and started to gain functionality and Improve like living in so many ways. I didn't know what was possible for life Frankly, I was like just passively if not actively suicidal for so many of those years and decades that I was just living or I was surviving I was not living or thriving and this started to slowly open up the possibility of I could try new things I could explore my interests and obviously through this degree. Well, maybe it's not obvious but to me um I had found such interest in or rekindling of my interest in Not just being someone who has mental illness but understanding the deep conceptualization and underpinnings of mental illness and not only that but that specific neuroscience class really just Invigorated me far beyond just doing well in the class like part of the reason I did well is because I had the faculties And then part of the reason was because I was so deeply interested and what I was learning And it was kind of getting closer to my questions about why why why about mental illness and its causes and its functions and all of that so For me what getting that degree represented and especially that GPA was like something I thought was impossible as possible so what the fuck more responsible for my life from then on the nitty-gritty details of my experience don't necessarily fully matter Because it's more so how the label and experience of being a nutritional student overlaid onto those next paths but Just to kind of overview where I've gone from there thus far. So I graduated with my undergrad in august of 2021 And immediately I started well, I guess a week later. I started my master's of neuroscience technically my masters in a science in applied cognition and neuroscience with a degree specialization in neuroscience. So yeah, my master's in neuroscience at the same university I was at and this whole story again is detailed in my full story in past episodes, but basically as I was getting closer to graduating, I was considering how I could further my contribution to the mental health field. It felt like the most attainable way to do so was to be a clinical psychologist. Frankly, I had been growing and really fostering my love and interest in neurobiology and neuroscience without being a neuroscience undergrad, but I just didn't at the time really believed that I had the capability to do that beyond just one neuroscience class. So I felt like the closest thing I could do was clinical psychology, which on paper I had the skills and the grades and the experience to do so and I applied to PhD programs and then amidst choosing between the PhD programs that I applied to and had the opportunity to attend and by a whim and by a professor encouraging me to at least apply for UTD's master's program. I ended up getting into that, which I was very surprised and then I ended up just choosing the master's program and I told myself that if nothing else it would just further scaffold me to be able to reapply for PhD programs in clinical psychology, that maybe I wanted to go to more, but really and truly that became the beginning of my full path into neuroscience and being a neuroscientist. So I started my master's degree in neuroscience with one neuroscience class under my belt, which is extremely unconventional because you are in PhD in master's level classes because typically, at least to programs, I've been privy to master's classes are the same thing as PhD classes is just that you get a degree after two years of doing classes with masters versus like a PhD is a two class, the two years of classes plus a fuck ton of years of research. So I am in these extremely high level neuroscience classes where most things the professor would say, "Well, I already know you know this, so let's talk about this part." I'm like, "Well, I don't know that." So I was completely just catching up and like teaching myself so much stuff and being so lost, honestly, and at the same time, joining of all labs, a neurobiology wet lab, like the most like some of the most molecular cellular work you can do, as someone who had never even taken a class on what the fuck a cell was and I say that jokingly, but I actually mean it. And the next two years were just me grinding and just catching up so much and just really I feel like pulling back an arrow like to get to be able to do what I'm doing now and it's highly unconventional. The path I've taken in terms of number one being an nutritional student, number two, getting a master's in a biomedical science without the undergrad were massive supplemental experience to inform my ability to do so. And number three, like just as a graduate student joining a lab with no previous biomedical experience and just having to like learn so much on the fly and having amazing mentorship and support to really like support the backlog of stuff I didn't know and like mentor and specifically my past principal investigator, Dr. Culver, who really took me under his wing and just believed in my capability to learn so much of what I've been missing and the amount that I grew as a person and a human. And in my self concept myself efficacy and just as a scientist is astronomical and I still like cannot believe how much I learned and how much I was able to because of support and because of development like achieve in two years of being a master student and on top of that, like basically like a year and a half ish in like applying to PhD programs and not only PhD programs but like really intensive neuroscience PhD programs. So I had fully let go of like honestly before the first semester if my master's even like finished. I was in, I still remember I was in a systems neuroscience class. I was really freaking lost yet we were learning about the neurobiological basis of memory and I realized that I wanted to understand like I was so beyond fucking consumed and fascinated by memory neurobiology and like memory related disorders, particularly obsessive propulsive disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, emotion, motivation, the molecular cellular basis the way the the cells talk to each other brain regions talk to each other like all of that and I was just like yeah this is what I'm doing and this is going to be really really hard and maybe I can't do it but I certainly am not going to be doing clinical psychology as much as I love and appreciate the profession. It's just, it wasn't answering questions from the vantage point that I really truly resonated with and I didn't know that because I had never been exposed to or are allowed myself to be exposed to the things that scared me the most and the things that scared me the most of things I love the most and still do to the stay and still scare me the most of the day but all that being said like because I made the decision like as I started the master's program and took that class of like I'm officially like I am not entertaining the idea of clinical psychology anymore I wasn't sure if I wanted to then go to a PhD in neuroscience that would even be possible for me because of how just wildly competitive the fields of graduate school for neuroscience already is but then it became like the way I've been told is it became like tenfold more competitive since the pandemic because so many people who were planning on applying and had built up all the prerequisites which for anyone wondering we're going to get into this in a different episode specifically on admissions because it's going to get a lot of questions about that but high level it's of course the degrees it's the education but even more so it is the research experience the lab experience multiple lab experiences ideally the recommendation letters from people who speak to your expertise and your you know development as a student and a researcher mostly as a researcher honestly because it's embedded in that as a student as well as presentations publications awards like all the things like basically that's all required again to a program it got infinitely harder because everyone who was going to apply during the pandemic starting you know 2020 really didn't apply or many people didn't because a lot of opportunities got interrupted so then people were seeking alternative opportunities and then they got more years under their belts of experience and then the level the bar of the bear of the minimum and the average and the competitiveness just really skyrocketed because so many people had extra time to get more experience and it just like totally changed the way people looked at applicants so anyway I was applying like the most cutthroat level there has ever been and I frankly like on paper in my perception and some you know based on what some people have said like I would have been lucky if I and again with rankings don't really matter but in terms of just illustrating a point like I would have been lucky if I got into like a local school like a really small research school at all like it's just so competitive and yet due to the amount of support and growth that I was I experienced and almost like defied a timeline that I mean I had never been shared this kind of journey or not traditional student experience and the way I particularly went about it which is mostly why I'm talking about it because I don't really matter like I'm here I'm doing this like my story is what it is like I don't need to hear myself talk about like the things that I had done or achieved the real reason I'm talking about this is because I want other people to know that they can do it too and I don't mean that in a corny way I mean it like truly genuinely like you can forge your own path you can do things your own way you can defy the norms and expectations and guidelines and the things that people tell you are just required of you and that there's no way that you could do it if you didn't follow this path or have these these ways of presenting yourself for you know these labels like make you taboo or someone who people won't touch like that's not true and I'm here to dismiss that and to also validate that there is a lot of truth in the stigma that exists it's just that there's ways to exist and be anyway and to work with that stigma so that's why I'm sharing this but all that to say I have somehow now found myself in one of the top research programs to exist in a earth which I can't even believe like I can say that and then I'm here and I truly still don't feel like I belong I still feel like I am the I just I should be here and I somehow like accidentally found myself here and all that to say like I don't know that feeling is going to change but I am here and from being here and from where I'm going I just feel extremely compelled to share that this is possible as a non-traditional student so again I'm going to be having another episode and more episodes on this topic but I'm specifically going to have another episode on navigating grad school admissions the application process and also speaking to the subset of people listening who are doing that as a non-traditional student too so that is definitely all coming so in this episode I really want to drive this point home and like round out the story with just some realities of being an non-traditional student and just sort of how I've navigated them and how I just hopefully be able to empower you and encourage you to embrace those parts of yourself and give yourself love and care. compassion and validation to you and for you to know that you are more than worthy and capable of Doing and achieving whatever it is you want to do because of who you are as an entrepreneurial student not in spite of it and so I mean let's just get into the reality of it that label and in of itself It sounds maybe to some people who aren't in academia or in this space like it just sounds like a cool quirky like You know marginalized identity title and Yes, it is not cool and quirky, but it is a marginalized marginalized identity title but in the spaces where Academic things exist in pursuing degrees and pursuing graduate programs professional programs like anywhere where that identity would matter to be honest or Where that title or that label would come up? inherently in those places is where the most stigma and just the reasons that that label exists like are not Are not supportive to people. It's generally held against us and it's because The title and the label just means that a person took a non-traditional path compared to the Orbiterally in my opinion described path of being a student and so there's nothing inherently wrong with that it just is different, right but the interpretation and the Beliefs people may have as a result of hearing that term it gets translated in most people's biased heads as There's something wrong with that person. There's something weird about that person There's something that that person did wrong and sure maybe they overcame it, but there's still like There's a record. There's a history. There's maybe a rap sheet which could be the you know a transcript or like a literal rap sheet for all we know and It's just typically held against a student by people who have not checked their biases or who you know had the privilege of being on a traditional path and therefore holding people in a higher regard as if Being on a traditional path inherently means that they were more capable or they you know pull themselves up by their bootstrap Or they worked hard enough for just this in internal like Bias or assumption that If you follow the traditional way you did it the right way or you were capable and resourced and Conversely if you're a non-traditional student then you didn't do it the right way you did something wrong You needed more help or you were a weak girl these descriptors and things that can come and I'm not saying that Everybody thinks this like I'm just saying that that Can often be the experience of someone who has that label just like the experience of someone who's disabled and sometimes you have both like me and more So and especially in the realms of academia and the weight that those identities and labels carry and you know it's so funny actually that the stigmas and the Judgments associated with the identity of a non-traditional student are things attributed to laziness or a lack of trust or accountability and like sometimes people feel like By being an actual student. There's a less likelihood that someone's going to fully perform in A degree or that they're going to fully commit to finishing it or you know all these random things that just like don't make any sense because they're actually Again counterintuitive to the inherent experience of being a non-traditional student like we talked about before people who are non-traditional students are choosing to either go to school Later than what's prescribed or accepted as normal by society and or they're returning back to school at a later time They are taking on more burden financially often times because because of being a non-traditional student due to age barriers and Great discrimination and many other things many nontraditional students are not they don't qualify for certain scholarships or Grants or things that can cover and help and aid someone going to school because of being an nontraditional student and they're relative characteristics and identities associated to that so in spite of the barriers of Why they're not as supported and going back to school or going to school and later date In spite of the judgments and in spite of it just like not making sense again in the typical norm of what adulthood Supposed to look like by society standards they still go back or start school later and Like I said before like non-traditional students have this different vantage point of they are coming with a purpose They are extremely intentional with why they're why they're going back they have goals They have a lot of life experience and wisdom and they're coming from a different place and if that doesn't scream commitment and Intention and a likelihood of completing a degree or program or whatever it is the people like hold bias against like I don't know What is like by the sheer like motivation that they have to come against the odds to do this like that proves more than anything to me resilience and commitment and motivation and this is obviously anecdot but from my own experience from any Non-traditional student I've met whether it be through my own classes or programs or virtually through the ways I've supported people and Just met people of different walks of life like pretty much every non-traditional student is someone who is deeply passionate and committed and is Coming back with a very specific purpose. It is motivated far beyond just almost being an autopilot from Being told what to do at a certain age and just kind of doing it because it's what's expected of them They've also had a lot more life experience to get really clear on their purpose and their mission and What the purpose that their education is serving to do something greater than perhaps like just checking the box of going to school But again, I'm not knocking at all the experience of being a traditional student. I'm just saying there are Ways that there are strengths perceived in both categories. There's also ways to grow in both categories and yet It's much more held against non-traditional students the ways that they're judged versus Traditional students because they're not judged in the same way. It's just considered the norm Also, there's a pretty unique experience of holding the identity the often marginalized identity of being an traditional student in contrast or comparison to other identities because Being a non-traditional student there's almost no way of not disclosing or being identified or Outed as non-traditional student because of the virtue of the systems in which a non-traditional student would be existing in at least in the ones where the label matters It is held against them because like I don't know I could go out into the world and just Call myself a non-traditional student and it doesn't I mean people don't really care But in these spaces where that label is going to be outed and matters like in academia in graduate programs and certificate programs in just different pursuits where they're judging me based on my academic record and my academic trajectory There's almost no consent or choice in the matter of disclosing which you know in a perfect world There would be no issue with disclosing any identity and any experience ever and I live many different identities where disclosure is a question and a Experience that I navigate but in this particular aspect of my life I have pretty much no choice in the matter because it's going to come out through evaluation It's going to come out through in the most granular sense like looking at my transcript and for you know looking at my age Looking at when I started and stopped school Obviously for me in particular and for many people who had the similar experience like all the classes that it initially failed and all of my past grades and the withdrawals and the huge gap in time between the first time I attempted it in the second and just questions about why and You know even if it's not grades or you know even if it's someone who's going to school at a later age and starting and stopping at a later age Just the comparison of their age and date of birth and all of that and the things people look at In relativity to when they graduated or when they started and it's just there It's just there and it's kind of unavoidable and this even goes for jobs and looking at someone's resume and looking at when they went to school versus their age and what they look like especially interpreted age and you know People talk all the time about like gaps on resume or held against people like in terms of gaps of working Now imagine it gap in school or like a different form of school like there's always an added Explanation that needs to be had it. It's not a choice of Do I disclose I'm an nutritional student and I get the choice in the matter and if so I can talk about it in a powering way It's I have to disclose it and or it's already going to be thought out about me So it's this toggle of you know, how do I do I disclose it on my own? Do I have it outed for me and does either work against me? Just are they gonna think I'm hiding it or if I just outwardly say it are they gonna judge me? Because I'm talking about it so openly and then there's also this added burden frankly of People with non-traditional student identities having to Honestly create and curate this like perfectly crafted story almost justifying why Their non-traditional journey is okay and why it's acceptable and why they've done enough and why it was valid and you know Either it being a compelling enough story for people to pity them or you know Have some empathy for them in the best case scenario But even so is still eliciting some kind of response that makes it okay to be a non-traditional student and that they're still good enough and oftentimes over performing to Overcompensate and show that they're good enough in spite of being a non-traditional student It's just this added burden of like Oftentimes having to disclose things about their life and their identity that they might not have shared otherwise, but it's completely relevant to why they were an traditional student. So for me, that's hugely because, like, I'm a national student largely because of severe psychiatric and chronic and physical illness, and all of the effects it had on me being debilitated, being dysfunctional. And yes, I'm open about it, but even if I weren't open about it, I would have to, on some level, disclose that experience, which can already be held against me beyond just being a national student because of ableism and discrimination and all of that. So it's just, it's so interesting how this identity is something that you don't really even have an option around sharing. And so then that begs the question of what resources and empowerment and to support do we have for those students to be able to navigate these systems that inherently are made to be against them and are conditioned to be against them and to support them to make their way in those systems anyway because they do belong and I belong and you belong and that's why I'm here talking about this. So there's so much more I could say about this and there's a lot of overlap and crossover into how my particular experience as a non-traditional student, colored and impacted my journey into graduate school, into becoming a neuroscientist, into disclosure and all of the things and the ways it overlays onto my experience, which is why I wanted this episode to really just set the groundwork and framework for talking about this topic, especially again at this time of year. So this episode really was to just share my experience in a nutshell about being a non-traditional student, how I became one, why I became one, what that looked like and played out for me in specific scenarios and then really just reflecting as I always do in the most honest, unfiltered and unhinged way on just the realities of living as a non-traditional student and just validating and putting words to the experience that is not often said and raising awareness to the many people who might be listening to this who are curious and want to know but have no idea what that entails beyond just calling myself a non-traditional student and all of the realities of the stigma and misconceptions and judgments and biases and I'm really here to dispel these and to raise awareness and to bring a voice and empowerment to all of the people, the beautiful humans who find themselves in this space and this identity because I know you exist because you all ask me these questions and ask me to talk about this. So I hope that this episode really supports you and just giving a voice to your experience and allowing you to reflect on your own experience to put words to the things you have faced and to just let you know that you're not alone and I also just genuinely assure you that more episodes will be coming to give more concrete tips and advice beyond just dealing with a stigma but like have actually implemented in terms of very tangible experiences at least that I've been through and and how I found myself where I am in spite of the label and the stigma that it carries so just know that that's coming and I'm really here to support you all because I know I needed it and that's all I can do. I can just create what I wish I had as someone with these identities and experiences and just above all let you know that you're not alone. So thank you so much for tuning into this episode and hanging with me and just receiving me in my fullest expression and I just really hope that this supported you and allowed you to take up more space for yourself and your experience and for those who don't identify with this label. I hope that you just feel more expanded in your understanding of different identities and people and just I just love this community so much and the open heart and the open mind that you all have from so many different walks of life and I think that's what ties us together. We don't all have the same experiences but we do have such a similar vantage point of the way we approach ourselves and each other with just more openness, compassion and curiosity and honesty and authenticity and just really really embracing and accepting the human condition because I think that's why we're all here creating this community together. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for tuning in and as always if you liked this episode, if it resonated with you or if you're loving this show please do a few things to support me to help me grow and continue to do this show. Number one, take five seconds to just subscribe to the show wherever you're listening to this podcast so that you can get episodes as soon as they come out and it really supports me. Also if you could just leave a quick five star rating and review if it resonates with you if you're supported by this, it really really helps us grow the show, grow the trust in the show, help more people feel like they're safe to join this community and join in these conversations and then also if you can share this episode and any episode that you love on social media with your communities, with your friends, text it to them, reach out to them. It all means the world. It all makes such a difference and really empowers me to continue on creating this and co-creating this with you. So thank you all for supporting me and for being here. I can't wait to keep being at service here. I can't wait to share more with you and I will see you next time for another episode which I will do well.