NOAH KAHAN: Imposter Syndrome, Anxiety & The Pressure of Success (What He’s Never Shared Before)

This is a iHAR podcast Guaranteed Human No gloss, no filter Just stories, spoken without fear For a son who is not generous can not be an artist The world will be at peace Only when it is ruled by poets and philosophers Listen to my weekly podcast The Pooja Bhatt Show and the iHAR radio app Apple Podcasts Or wherever you get your podcasts Come for the honesty For the fire It's easy to look at somebody and be like "your life must be so sick" Man, you have no f***ing clue Talking about the mental illness stuff It used to be this thing that I was ashamed of I'm just now trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically Or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music If someone says that I did a good job I'm like "yeah, I'm good" If someone says that I suck I'm like "f***ing guy suck" *laughs* Getting to talk about this is not common for me Right now I need it more than ever Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose The place you can't become the happier, healthier and more healed Today on On Purpose I'm joined by singer songwriter Noah Khan Noah's highly anticipated new album The Great Divide Is our April 24th Alongside his brand new Netflix documentary Noah Khan "Out of Body" Our April 13th Please welcome to On Purpose Noah Khan Noah, it's great to finally meet you Thank you for having me, I'm a huge fan and this is awesome So thank you I have to say I'm a huge fan Thank you for sending your documentary in advance I'm actually really looking forward to people seeing it Because it was so raw, it was so vulnerable, super real I felt like I got to know you before I got to know you today And then when we're sitting down before the interview today I'm like Oh wait, this is. I feel like I've already got very familiar with you It's so weird like to know it's gonna be out in the world Like it was almost like I was able to compartmentalize the process of making it With like not thinking about anyone seeing it So that I was able to kind of be more myself And then a lot of ways it was like really therapeutic to film And to watch back It's like a very heavy experience Like watching yourself and getting to see your family But like my family and I were talking were like We're actually so lucky that we got to be a part of this Because how rare is it to get to see how you all interact with each other in a natural way And like how you can kind of take into perspective like what it would look like from an outside angle And like watching it back I think my whole family was like We are really good to each other and like we all are funny and love each other And so it was a really amazing like a billet like chance to see who we are And through the eyes of someone else and through the artistic lens of like a director And hopefully soon the audience which is it's just a special thing So I appreciate you watching it It's like my first time talking about it right now So I'm still like learning how to talk about it and learning how to like express my feelings on it Because I'm still kind of finding out what they are But ultimately like I just hope that people that watch it feel connected to their families to their lives to their own insecurities Through you know me talking about mine And it was hard and was scary but I think ultimately like those are the things that move people And can make people take stock of who they are So making it there was moments where I was like Should I talk about this? Should I say this? Like should I really say what I'm feeling? So I have this like hyper active ability to like know how it's going to be perceived and just trying to put away like my concerns about how people would perceive me and just try to be myself Was like a fun challenge and I think helped me in like my own life now Yeah well I really hope this conversation is as much a discovery and exploration for you as it is for us And so that I hope that it helps you in the journey of what you're trying to do in the mission and the purpose that's behind it We see so much of your childhood in it you talk about it like what's a childhood memory that stands out to you that still defines who you are today My dad and I in the documentary play Father and son at the end which is like the first song I learned to sing and one of the first songs I learned to play guitar on with my dad And so I think playing that song at this senior citizens home in Hannover was like really defining So it was like my first time performing and it was my first time realizing that like I wasn't as good as I thought I was I think I thought it was really good and then I went into that performance and like oh like this is really hard And also like the song itself was about like a lot of it's about like aging and kind of like the discrepancy between youth and people that are getting older And like the youth feeling like old people don't understand and we're literally doing it in an old folks home These people are probably like yeah the dad character is way more correct than the son character But that was like a defining moment for me and also the only time my dad and I've ever performed like for anyone besides our family Until we did the documentary so I always remember that like a really special moment of my childhood That is special that's the special what we what were you like as a kid like how would you describe yourself growing up? I was I'm one of four like kind of like middle child like it's my older brother my older sister than me that my younger brother So I was kind of like in my own world a little bit I think very creative very like aspirational to do something creative with my life even from a very young age But also like very distracted Distracting just kind of trying to be heard even just around the dinner table or in school Just like trying to make my voice still out as one to get like a chance to say what I had to say and what was your method just raising your voice? Yeah, like yeah just being like an asshole basically I think But just trying to be heard and trying to like get the attention that I wanted just kind of being in the middle And trying to just have my voice be one that people can hear I was not a great student. I love I think I was pretty smart But didn't really care much for school because I always always always wanted to be a musician And truly like every year of school for me felt like just one more year of me not getting it to go be a singer So I was just looking forward to being done with school and going to write songs and going to play music and going to do open mic so very like I don't know kind of just like itching and a little anxious to get out as a kid from whatever situation wasn't like gonna achieve my dreams What do you think your vision was for life if this hadn't happened like this incredible success in journey that you're on right now? Like what did you envision? I literally never ever thought about it like I've never thought about anything else besides being a musician Wow. You can sixth grade you wrote a letter to yourself that you would open when you graduate high school And like my letter was just you're great exercise Yeah, it is actually really cool and like kind of sets you up for like sadness a lot of ways like I haven't done any of that shit But for me it was like I want to have a record deal by the time I graduate high school And I want to make it was basically like you better still be making music you better still be like writing and like thinking about music And when I graduate high school I had a record deal and I opened up the letter I'm like this is cool I think I made my like child with itself pretty proud there when some of you are writing that And actually like throughout high school I was like thinking about like man I gotta get that record dealer sixth grade no was gonna beat me up But yeah, that was always my life plan. I think if I people do ask me all the time about what I would do if I wasn't And music but it's always with the context of already being a music I think music is so my job feels so me focused all the time and like so centered on who I am and marketing me and marketing my vulnerability And whatever and so I think just something that would be focused on other people and focused on like helping other people and extending myself to help others spotlight themselves Just something that wasn't so Noah all the time. Yeah, yeah, for sure I mean you've talked about how like writing as a teenager was an outlet for feeling different and your anxiety Like what was that feeling different than that music was an outlet for and what was the anxiety back then? Yeah, it was interesting said I was always trying to fit in and always and like had lots of friends and but I always kind of felt like I was hiding this part of myself that was like really vulnerable and Sad and going through a lot of like mental health stuff even at a really early age and I think that created this like disconnect in my life or like I was going to school or hanging out my friends and like really putting on To be who I thought would be like accepted and then going home and feeling like really disconnected from like this presentation of myself all the time And so writing music was like my own special little thing and for a long time I really missed that too Like when it was just my special my special little buddy, you know, it's going home and writing a song and and like having this other like Hannah Montana thing that I did Where like I'll go home and like write music and then go to school and just be like you know a class clown and be annoying at school and then go home and like just kind of accesses other other side of myself. So writing music was always a way for me to kind of have something that made me feel like I belonged and whoever like and who I really was. Yeah, do you miss that because you don't feel you get to do that anymore in a certain way? I just feel like everything I do even like internally on my own like I just always I'm thinking about it from like a how is this going to move my career forward? How do we market this like I don't know when you like start to be sentient to like who you are and what your music can represent to people it can affect like the intention. And so sometimes I worry that I'm not being I'm not saying things that I feel I'm just saying things that sound like deep or sad or whatever and I like to think that the music that I put out is all stuff that I connect to but it's just in the writing process and like thinking about like how do we market your vulnerability in the next album? How do we like show people this other sad thing and when it's like I feel like there's all this shit that's up for grabs and up for like everything that I have is going out and being taken in and being absorbed or being sold and I miss when it was just me in the guitar and like the only person in the world that was going to hear that song was maybe my mom and then my my notebook or whatever. So yeah I miss that I miss having music be just this special thing that wasn't like adulterated by the other side of music which is not as much fun for me. But what I'm hearing from you is that in your writing process you're almost using that awareness that you're using. that you have to go, oh no, I want to write with intention. And I want to write with my real feeling. And it almost feels like you're using as a filter, which I guess you're saying in the past, that filter didn't exist. You didn't need to. Now you almost have to filter it through that. - Yeah, and in a lot of ways, it's nice because seeing people respond, and I don't even talk about like marketing or charts or whatever like selling shows. I was just watching people like in the crowd hearing the music and like watching a girl and her dad or frat guys or grown men like out there like feeling the music. - Yes. - That helps me like it inspires me to be vulnerable. It's a matter of like telling the line between being vulnerable and trying to achieve what people think vulnerability looks like. And sometimes realizing that sometimes some things don't fit into a box. They don't fit into a three and a half minute song. Sometimes the conversation is much larger and being okay with not being able to say everything you want all the time. And just yeah, even like as I talk about the documentary, just like I'm still figuring out how to talk about these feelings that I express. Like I don't have a thousand foot view of like what I went through. And so learning how to like express myself without feeling like I'm giving myself away is something that I've been grappling with a lot. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's this, I mean just for whatever it's worth when I was watching the documentary, my wife randomly was walking through the room and she stopped. She didn't even know when I was watching. She just started on my laptop and I'm watching it and she walked in on the moment where you're singing for the little wonderful girl who has cancer. And my wife just stopped and was like she heard it and she was so mesmerized. She came over and she just saw the little girl and she was like that was just your music and that moment and she had no clue what I was singing on. - Yeah, she didn't know and it had an impact in like this very passive way of even experiencing it. And I think that says a lot about what you're channeling and putting through. - That's the most wonderful compliment that somebody that I'm sure your wife is a very different background than I do. Like, or maybe she was from my hometown or no. (laughing) - But just like somebody that's not in my world or in my body or in my experience, like finding a connection within themselves or like an interest in something. I think that's like what mental health, the conversation about mental health for me has been so cool. It was like understanding that where I came from is my own and I grew up with privilege and with access and like that people that didn't have that are still connecting to the feelings there. And it brings us together and it kind of helps equalize our differences into this like larger similarity of just going through something mentally. - Yeah, I listen to you and I'm like, wait, was I from Vermont? (laughing) - You know, why does it still myself? And I'm not just saying that to flatter you. I'm like, wait a minute, why does this like, why does this sit so deep? - Yeah. - And it's such a beautiful thing of like connecting to strangers or people from different walks of life and different backgrounds. But I find it fascinating that you talk about, you know, almost missing this old experience, but then in the documentary, you kind of start it with like this line of, I'm so afraid of losing this special thing and it might go away. - Yeah. - And so it's almost like there's something beautiful about what's happening now too. - Yeah, it's, I think I'm just constantly in like a grasses greener mindset and constantly trying to go backwards. I worked with this songwriter in Nashville and he's this older guy. I started when he was in his 40s, his name's Tom Douglas, great writer. He said songwriting is all about trying to go back and just somewhere simpler and somewhere easier. And I think that's how I live a lot of my life. And I'm very actively, like hyperactively aware of moments as they're there. And I'm not able to be inside of the moment because I'm so worried about when it's gone and I know I'm never able to go back to it. And so in the documentary, you see a lot of me being like this impostor syndrome of like I might not get this ever again. This might all go away. And for having worked for so long for like nine, eight or nine years before I had that kind of moment that allowed me into those big venues and that more kind of like global success, I guess. I'm so aware of how fleeting and how hard it can be to refine it. And so I think I spent so much time worrying about not being able to get it again that a lot of those moments that wasn't able to fully live in. So when there were moments like family park in the documentary as you see in the movie, like that I'm able to fully be in. Those are so special to me. Like, and you thought you were like, that was one of the few times that I felt like I was just there. And like looking out and I just felt like so with everybody else in that moment and not thinking about before or after. And you know, that's why that show was so special to me. Like the fans all being there, the venue amazing. But like for me selfishly, it was just like, oh, I'm here. This is awesome. I am right where you guys are right now. And I felt like the same for a little while. - I mean, I feel like I love watching that genuine kind of present yet anxious feeling we all experience like that short of you lying on the lawn at Fenway, like lying on the ground and texting right at the beginning. And it's like, you're like, I can't believe I'm here. It's surreal. But then you're like, but I'm anxious. And then I watch that I'm like, but that's so real. Like that is the most present way in one sense to experience anything. It's like, that's the human experience, right? It's like, I always am so jealous of like, and maybe there's no one exist that can do this. But someone that's just like fully living in the moment. Like fully like, just accepting things as they come, being right there, experiencing everything and not thinking about the context or the future. - It's possible, yeah, it's possible. - Oh, that'll be so sick. If you have a guy in LA that you could hook me up with, like just implant something in my brain. - I don't know the meditative way to that. I don't know the technological way to that. - Even meditation, bro. I'll be meditating and I'll be like, man, I don't think I'm meditating good enough. I'm meditating so much better when I was young and it's hard. Meditation, like it's so powerful, but it's so difficult to like-- - It's like golf, it's hot. - It is. And it takes a while. Like the consistency is key for meditation, I think. But I'd like to learn more about that from you someday. - Of course, man, of course. I love how you talk about though this. I think what I'm getting at is there's, I just feel like you're really honest about how we all feel. I think it's very easy to be like, or I had this success, you know, six season was insane. Like the next thing's gonna be as big or bigger. And the reality is, I think anyone who's had any success, you're always scared of your next thing. - Oh yeah. - Like that's just such a normal human emotion. And so you talk about the study of being scared and sad for the next album. How does that bleed into your creativity and how do you use it rather than be controlled by it? - That's a great question. I'm still learning. I mean, when I was 16 years old, no record deal, nobody knew I was like making music or anything. I remember still feeling that way. Like I wrote a song called Sink when I was a kid and I like loved this song. And then the next day I was crying. So I'm like, I'll never make anything as good as that again. So there is no stakes at all for me at that point in my life. But that feeling has chased me around throughout my entire career. And was incredibly difficult coming off of stick season. It's because I kept on raising like the stakes emotionally for myself to have to follow it up. And for the first year after being on tour for three years of stick season, I was just kind of lost in how to fight that feeling. I had a conversation with a few different artists. I don't necessarily want to name them just 'cause I don't want to put them on the spot. But they had gone through this themselves, like burnout and major success and needing to follow things up. And the advice was just like, the best advice I got was like, it's just not gonna be the same process and you can't control it. You can't like try to make it perfect and it's just gonna be what it is. So I had to just kind of let go of this idea of like the follow up and just make music for that same, you know, eight year old, that picked up the guitar the first time and just make music because it's what I'm supposed to do. - Yeah, it's beautiful to hear that you actually reached out to other artists who've gone through similar things and have you felt that support in that community? Because I think there aren't so many more artists now who are talking about their mental health and are talking about the creative process and everything else. - Absolutely. - Yeah, absolutely. I feel like people really want to talk about themselves, I think, and sometimes just getting that conversation started. It's funny 'cause like creativity and its intersection with self-worth is so difficult for people to navigate. - So well said, explain that for me. - Yeah, just, I think a lot of times as creative people, as writers, actors, whatever, podcasts, you feel like what you do is who you are. And when you're talking one, what your job is, is expressing yourself. You feel like when you can't express yourself, you're not good at your job and you're not good at satisfying this need to let yourself out. And so it becomes very lonely because you feel like admitting that to somebody is not just admitting that you're struggling in your job means you're struggling with yourself. And that can be really, really difficult to say to somebody, especially somebody that you look up to that you think has it all together. So talking to these people was really hard, like my voice shakes on the phone, being like, I just don't think I can write songs anymore. And I don't think I can do this. And like having to open yourself up to somebody like that and be afraid that they're gonna say, well, that sucks, you know? And to hear someone say, I get it. And I went through that too, or I have my own version of that in my life. It just makes the world feel brighter. It makes like the clouds over your head just for a second go away. And you're like, at least, even if it's not fixed yet, at least you've been here before and there's a path out. So I'd like unbelievably grateful to those artists, to my family, to my wife, to the people that like sat with me in those feelings and like observed how I was handling it and recognized that I needed some help. So I'm really grateful to the people that helped me. And if you're listening to the podcast, like thank you so much. And I this album would not have happened without them. - Everything you just said was so well articulated. I hope you listened back to it because it was just everything you just said about creativity and self-worth, just resonated so strongly. - Thank you. Yeah, it's hard to describe. And it's hard to describe it really well. - Thanks, man. It's hard. - I was like, you literally just summed up the essence of, - Oh, my God. - When I was a kid, I was like, even when I was going through the stuff as a kid, like writer's block and stuff like that, I would just look up artists with writer's block and hope. that I could see a quote from somebody that would just like unlock everything. And I found a few, but like I tried to make a vow to myself to like talk about creative struggle because it's really isolating and really lonely and it just feels like you get stripped of who you are. And it just feels like you're drowning. So I always want to try my best to share what I've gone through just so people can maybe hear it and be understood for a second. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, not to compare, but to reflect my own experience. I spent the last, from when I started the process, I spent the last 12 months trying to figure out just what the topic of my next book was going to be. And it was the most excruciating 12 months in my life because I wrote, I wrote, I wrote every in two books. This was my third book that I'm writing. And I wrote chapters through them away. I wrote chapters that I thought were quite good and then I read them back and they weren't. And I was overthinking, ruminating and everything else. And then 12 months later, I was like, I'm going to write a book about overthinking. Yeah. Because that's what I've just done for 12 months. Totally. That's what my actual experience, rather than, you know, writing from a place of knowing, I'm going to write from a place of what I'm struggling with. And it just. I've reached it, people. Yeah, but it took me a year to like even come to that conclusion. And did you feel like when you kind of made that choice internally, like, did it feel easier and did it feel like the words flowed and like. So much more. Yeah. But it was because before I was trying to technically figure out like, yeah, well, I had this really good book. It did really well. I was like, I'm going to write it like, how would I repeat that and what would it. What would that chapter structure look like if it matches that structure? And people said they love that chapter from that book. So let me. And it's like this mathematical process, which is not how I wrote that first book. No, it's never a second. And so then I'm like, wait, why am I trying to be a mathematician? You can only go through what you're going through. Like, you can't. You can't like change the feelings you have, even if they're feelings that you don't think are going to be marketable or as successful. And then you kind of realize like that's actually more compelling than listening to you pretend to be going through something and pretend to have a perspective on something. Like, people relate to that. That's awesome. I'm pumped that you went through that too. No, yeah, no, no, no. I'm not pumped that you went through it, but I'm pumped that you got through it and that we're able to talk about it with like the perspective. No, I'm pumped. And now I'm pumped I went through it too because for that year, you just feel like you're pulling your hair out, right? Totally. What are we doing here? I wonder if the next time that you and I have to do something new, like I always wonder, are we going to be able to like, is this going to help us the next time? I'm always like, might just going to be back to zero. Do we just forget? Do we just get amnesia and like start again? Or like, I hope that this experience for me and that experience for you, like lets you have a little bit of like confidence for the next time. Yes, yes. That's like what I'm trying to like, I'm trying to tell myself like, I just went through this hard thing creatively. And I'm going to have to be more creative in my life. Like, let's hope that these lessons actually help me instead of like just forgetting about them and getting lost in the sauce. Yeah, I feel like writing down these lessons protects them for me personally. Like I'm like, I need to journal about that. I need to write about it. I need to cement what you just said. Like this idea, this moment where we're having this interaction and be like, no, I said to me, I hope we don't forget these things. I do the same thing. I write whenever I like, I used to write a good song or a song that I thought was good. And then I would put in my notes app like everything I did to get that good song. And it's funny because when I'm going through something hard to look back, then I'm like, okay, I'm trying it. So yeah, it's complicated. Creativity is so annoying because it makes you start from scratch every time. And it forces you to use that muscle memory. And it's just a fucking mind. Yeah. Sorry. It's a mind. It's a mind. Yeah, I remember like, Ruben was here, like maybe two years ago now. And then you get Rick who's sitting there just going like, yeah, don't make anything for anyone. I'm like, yeah, like I wish. But it's hard. It's like, you know, it's not. And everyone's journey is so different. And like everyone's like creative process is so different that it can be so hard to like find the bridge between two people. It's difficult. I mean, again, like I'm jealous of people that just like can write every day and love what they're making. Like not have to worry about how it's being perceived or I feel like writer's block. It's so closely tied to like anxiety and like the self-fulfilling prophecy that you have, like if you worry about something so much, it's going to happen and then you worry about worrying and then you're worrying about worrying. And then it's like, it's here. You know, like there you do. You did it, dude. You're like, congrats. Like, I hope that I learned in the in the process before I get to that place, like to recognize what is happening internally and like question it instead of just letting it flow and going to this shitty spot. It's almost like we trust every thought totally. And that's such an interesting idea. It's like if you trusted everything you read on social media and believed it to be true without checking it, but we do that in our mind all day. All the time. And any thought doesn't get any evidence checked. There's no proof needed. There's no true. There's no rebuttal. It's like a weird arrogance that everything you think has to be correct. And then you're anxious about that. Yeah. Oh, dude. You get anxious arrogance. Maybe there's the way to think about it. Oh my God. I know. It's a little bit of like this ego thing where it's like, oh, I've been, especially because we all are really doing this in one way or another from since we were children. Yes. I think like expressing ourselves creatively. So it's tied up in your inner self and this like, you don't want to betray this like process that you've cultivated. But like, I never questioned that maybe that process actually wasn't very healthy. And there's a real way that I can make good music without having to suffer all the time for it. And we look at people like Van Gogh and these famous artists that like battered themselves to create. And we think that's has to be how it is. And I subscribed to that theory for a long time. Just now like trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music. Like there has to be a way to access it without living it all the time. To call you almost didn't make. Let me ask you something honestly. Have you ever almost made a phone call and then decided not to? Maybe you picked up your phone and thought about calling someone. You might have been someone you had not spoken to in a long time. It might have been someone you wanted to thank. Or maybe it was someone you needed to apologize to. But then you hesitated. You might have told yourself that it was not the right time. You might have thought they were probably busy. Or maybe you convinced yourself that sending a quick text would be easier. So you put down the phone. Most of us do this more often than we realize. We underestimate the power of a simple phone call. But when you really think about it, some of the most memorable moments in our lives begin with someone deciding to reach out. They begin with someone deciding that the conversation was worth having. For more than 150 years, phone calls have helped people bridge distance and stay connected with the people who matter most in their lives. However, the real magic of a phone call has never been the technology itself. The real magic lies in the intention behind it. A call is a moment when someone chooses to say in the simplest way possible, "You matter enough for me to call." Think about the last time someone called you unexpectedly just to check in. It probably meant more than you expected. Hearing someone's voice reminds us that we're not just another notification or message. We're a person someone cares about. So today I want to challenge you to do something simple. Think about the call you almost made recently. Instead of waiting for the perfect moment, create the moment. Call the person, say the thing you've been meaning to say. But sometimes the call you almost didn't make becomes the moment someone remembers forever. This moment was sponsored by AT&T, connecting changes everything. Did you believe that if you heal too much, it would reduce your creativity? 100%. Yeah. I used to believe that. Sure. I mean, it came into the conversation when I started taking medication for my anxiety when I was in high school. OCD diagnosis more recently. These problems were really hard for me and we're disrupting my ability to wake up in the morning and to just be a human being. But I was holding off on getting the help that I really needed for a long time because I was so afraid of it, dulling my creativity. And then I would look at my creativity and be like, "Well, this is not pretty very good either. I'm not making anything good right now. I can barely put my pen to the paper. I can barely even process a single thought." I was like, "I don't want to get help because I'm worried that I'll be happy and I won't care about making something." I won't feel painful enough for my audience. The feelings won't be real enough for my audience. It just took like, saying, "Well, I don't want to live like this anymore." If it means that I write a happy song, I need to get up in the morning. I found that I was still sad in a way that felt more manageable and I still had feelings and deep thoughts about things. But I wasn't getting sidebarred by rabbit holes of obsession and rabbit holes of anxiety anymore. It really was a turning point for me making this record was just like taking the step off of the cliff so to speak into the unknown. Again, it's a control thing. I can't control this and it's sucked. But when I let go is when I found it again. I'm a reels in Joshua Tree and I have never been in Joshua Tree. I'm not even particularly a huge desert guy. I kind of scares me. But I was struggling a lot in my life. I need to go to Joshua Tree and find myself and make music. I just got diagnosed with OCD. It's something I'd suspected for a long time and there's so many varying branches of this problem. I never really knew where I fit into the conversation so I didn't want to get the diagnosis and be like, "I have OCD now. I was kind of scared." I just got diagnosed with OCD and I was in Joshua Tree and I was feeling so miserable when this beautiful air B&B and I'm in the desert. I'm like, "This isn't making me feel connected." Oh shit. And I was so lost in that. Being somewhere beautiful and realizing that the problem was like beyond where I was or where I put myself or how nice the studio or the collaborators were like realizing that I just wasn't going to be able to do it on my own was like that Joshua trip was like horrible but also incredibly enlightening because it was like alright that was my last try just like hoping life fixes just for me. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I imagine it's also one of the things you address in the documentary is that it's challenging because you don't want to like air your family's. You know, it's like this a lot of what you write about is your family and is your upbringing. Talk to me about how hard it is when it's like what you're writing from is your family and you love obviously it's obvious in your dog that you love each other and you have a support of relationship but at the same time it's hard to do that. It's complicated man. I think actually like one of my biggest regrets is not knowing how to communicate how I was feeling and choosing to do it through the songs that were then marketed to millions of people and heard by millions of people without having that conversation first of saying. Hey, mom and dad, like this is what I'm feeling about, you know, your guys is divorced or whatever is going on our lives. My dad's, you know, brain injury and in these things that like I never really knew how to talk to them about I'm much better at saying it in songs. It's I don't want to say cowardly, but it's just I'm afraid of that conflict sometimes and so I'm like I go back to this like okay, well, I'm going to write it down like angsty teen like I'm going to go like write it down. But like when you're writing things down in a journal versus when you're sending them to every streaming platform and every marketing thing in the world, the effect that I feel like it could have on people is that they feel blindsided. And my mom has always told me like she was happy that I was getting those feelings out. She's been so supportive. My dad as well, but I still felt like this regret of being like I wish I talked to you guys about this first because it would have been so much healthier. It would have been more fair to you. It would have been probably more helpful for me. And it's it's hard to like like you said air the dirty laundry in a way that's fair to everybody. And I don't think I did that in my last album. So I've been really trying to be intentional about making sure I communicate what I'm saying and why I'm saying it to my parents, my family, and this next album. Making sure they have a fair shake shake to say hey, maybe that makes me feel uncomfortable. Like please don't do that. And the documentary is like another huge extension of that like allowing these people into my home to my parents homes into their marriage into my dad's injury into my issues with my body and things that will, you know, we'll be seen in the documentary. It's been really important to like be communicative with each other about what people are comfortable with why we're doing it. Why it's important to have hard moments in there and how it can be helpful for people. Like I had a conversation with my sister and I'm like always checking in and make sure they're okay with this. And like it's been this big anxiety thing for me of like I'm so worried that you guys feel like I'm using you are like trying to exploit our pain or our experiences for my own gain. My sister said it best. She's just like is it painful to see dad from the outside angle like this. Yes, but like she's like I really think someone who's going through this neurone way with their parents or their friend or family or partner is going to be helped by it. And so there's a greater good to those like uncomfortable vulnerable feelings and that made me feel better like hearing them be supportive of it and not be like mad at me or scared or. It's helped me kind of grapple my own anxiety about about all of it and about it and showing the world my family and my life. Yeah, thanks for sharing that conversation with your sister. I didn't know that when was the first time you kind of talked to your parents about this and what was that interaction like. It was hard because like when we started the documentary I don't think I was fully aware of like where it was going to go. And I think obviously that's kind of how all good documentaries are like it starts out with something that feels small or controlled and it becomes something. I don't know more universal and and deeper and so you know I'm just like yeah they're coming to film some stuff and then suddenly you know my dad and I are like having this really intimate moment on the porch or. A conversation in the yard and I think the best way that I've always done been able to be vulnerable is like conversations like this for you're not like here the things that you have to say like it just kind of happens naturally but. I think we were kind of just like yeah they're just going to come film some stuff and I'll probably play the acoustic guitar and believe and then it kind of like developed into this more intimate like. Vulnerable piece so I think they learned with me as things were happening what it was going to be like and man like the first time watching the documentary because you see it all get made around you're kind of able to like pretend it's not happening and I think we all were kind of like what's the about that later but like when it finally was time to watch it was like one of the most stressful days of my entire life. Yeah it was kind of have you went through the whole family yeah so it was it was I got it first and I one of the most poorly timed Edibles of my entire life I was literally I was like coming up on this like weed edible and the documentary gets sent to my inbox and like they're going to I'm going to send it to my family but I really want to watch this first. And so watching this does two hour long hour and a half long movie about myself was like oh god yeah and I'd never seen all the pieces together and how like emotional it was and my family and I talked to each other like honestly and emotionally all the time but like. We kind of are like oh what's happened during and I'll see you tomorrow like you don't have to think about it again so like knowing that this is just like there for everyone to watch that I'll send it to my mom and brother and sister who were really right down the road was really scary and so yeah I sent it to them and like I think that their response like I guess I was hoping to be like this is amazing great send it off the Hollywood. I think for them it was an emotional experience as well and it was like challenging in a lot of ways to watch I think beautiful at the same time but challenge in from them to see not just like seeing yourself on camera which is weird yeah and like not human but just seeing how the themes came together and like kind of reminded us of this painful thing that we've had to go through as a family. And so it was like a lot of conversations at first about how we felt about it if we wanted to do it or not I was ready and willing to be like this let's not do it then if you guys are feeling any type of way about it let's not do it it's fine you know when we all washed it together as a family we found ourselves laughing crying hugging and like being so excited because it brought us all what closer and help this kind of like actually visualize what it's like for my dad what's like for my mom what is like for all of us in our own way. And like I remember this feeling of just like this golden week afterwards were like we all just felt super connected to each other and we felt this gratitude and it really has brought my dad and I a lot closer. And a lot of ways there things that I said in the documentary that I knew someday was going to hear but I don't think I ever could have said myself so I wasn't. Brave enough or something else to scared and so like having this vehicle to like tell my dad what I was feeling and tell him how sorry I was for like my impatience with him and how sad I felt about what he had gone through and. It created this like connection that I think we never really got to have and it was really really special and powerful and like I said at the beginning like I wish every single family could have a chance to watch the way they interact with each other and I have to get a see what it looks like to love each other and to be a son a daughter a father a mother on screen because it really helped us. It's fascinating when that process becomes therapy and healing almost to do make your parents read dress any of the things you brought up like did it start new conversations that hadn't happened before when they said when you said this when you felt this like this is what was going to our life. Yeah it did I did and you know I'm like I still learning how to talk about it but I I do feel like it helped us address why our reservations were there and a lot of times reservations are are like fears we're not even about like what's actually being shown it's about us grappling with it being out for sure you know like I remember thinking about the thing on my dad or I'm like I don't want anybody to like see my dad as vulnerable or like going through this hard thing and I think the truth was that I. Was grappling with my own like shame or whatever about it and my own like embarrassment for having my own vulnerabilities or and so it wasn't even about like what's on screen it was about my own internal dialogue about it and so I think that was really important open to plot conversations about like my dad loves this movie he's seen it. This isn't about him even in this moment this is about my own shit and so I need to work to stop being like projecting my own fears on to my onto these other people my life which was really important a hard thing to accept but i think a lot of us had that realization and that was really healthy i think to express that to each other. And you know painful things like we don't always want to talk about them over time and sick with people living all the country and people being in different walks of life and my family my life like it was nice to have to kind of force ourselves to confront some of these feelings and it was really healthy. Yeah it's a I'm only sharing this because it's reminiscent of a conversation a couple of months ago with Chris emger through made a documentary about his father's also on this. Oh wow and so it's about his dad's journey and he's forgetting details and and he felt the same way as you did where it was like I might like to put my dad's story out there like this like yeah and then what he said was when he watched it it was really emotional for him and his dad to watch it but it was actually most amazing to watch his sons watch it because they watched and they were like we want to spend more time with grandpa that's amazing like like and he was like that was you know and it's it's that kind of thing where I'm listening to you going like this is something that you found. That your family has come closer together over it yeah which is why you're saying like you wish every person could almost make a mini talk about their life and not even share it publicly like it sounds like a healing experience. Honestly it'd be a cool like that be a therapy thing to do it's not a be very expensive. But no totally and like so much of what we feel other people are going through is really just a projection of how we are experiencing. your own pain. I think like my dad is the fucking man. He is happy doing his thing. He loves his life. There are struggles like in any person's life. And he has, you know, he has had to struggle through this injury. But a lot of it was just me worrying about him and like making it seem like it was his, for some reason, his responsibility to feel that same worry that I had. And it's not. People experienced a pain differently. And I learned a really good lesson through making this documentary that like my view of the world and view of people's trauma isn't always accurate. And it's not fair to like suggest that they're going through what I think they're going through all the time. I mean, that's huge. Yeah. If there was any lesson, we could all learn totally. That's that's huge. You like to be able to actually go, oh, wait, the way I process stuff isn't the way people process stuff. And just because I'm judging this thing doesn't, I mean, that's, that's huge. Totally. What a great lesson to gain from. It's helped me like, the use in the word selfish my therapist is like, it's self focused, you know, but like a lot of times we think we're helping people or we think we're speaking some truth into the air. And it's like, that's not at all what's going on with this person. And so getting to see that up close and getting to, you know, my, my thing is I, we're my family and I'm like, oh my god, we have to send this to dad. Like he has to watch this. Like we're all so nervous that I was going to feel a send to my dad. He's like, I love it. Very simply like, it's great, buddy. Love it. Wow. That was like not what I expected you to say. Like a text just huge weight off my shoulders and like makes me happy that he's like, no, I know. I know what's going on. Like, you know, it wasn't like this like kids gloves. He's like, to say you look, he was like, oh, hell yeah. Yeah. I look cool. So that was nice. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's amazing. And you haven't even had the premiere yet. So I can't imagine how proud he's good. I mean, I know. That moment on the porch, I mean, seeing him choke up, I kind of be like, all right, we just got to, you know, I mean, that's, he's so proud. Like, man, that's one of the most like, I mean, I remember, tell me by that moment. Yeah. I mean, I remember it's hard for my, I think for me and my dad sometimes to like address these things. And so it's hard to get emotional about it and not so much of me like wants to have that conversation into like a here. Him say that he gets it. And I just felt like that was the closest we got. And the fact that it was able to happen for the documentary is amazing. But just for me, that moment was really important. It's like seeing him kind of be like, I know it's complicated and it's hard. And just to feel the sea is pride in me and to see his love for me in that moment, even after I'm sitting there like critiquing his ability to play the song, which I can regret though. I just feel like such a dick. But I was like, it's like, you know, in your dad, you've become a little kid again. You're just like, oh, dude, just play the right thing. But just seeing him like get emotional. But just I could see in his eyes like this conversation that we haven't really had, but I could see like it happened like between us in that moment, like telepathically almost. And that was like just really, really, really special for me. Yeah. That was something that I really, really will never forget. And I'm really grateful to people that helped me just documentary for like pushing in a way like us to these moments into these interactions because it's so easy just to drift away and drift through life and just like go home for Thanksgiving or go home and go out to dinner. And a season Zara had a great bit about like going to see your parents and like how it's the same thing every time and you leave and you're like, you're happy to leave, but you feel guilty. And I felt that a lot of just like, I feel like I came here and just didn't we didn't solve or work through anything. We just like worked together and that can be beautiful. But sometimes you want more and like that those moments with my family like allowed us to confront a lot of things and allowed us to have like moments that we'll remember forever. It's beautiful, man. Thank you. I can tell it is emotional. Yeah. It makes me emotional, man. Yeah. I just can love my family so much too. And like getting to be close to them in this way and this journey is then incredibly complicated for everybody. Like, you know, having my family be really exposed to the world, even just without this documentary just through my album and through promotion of it and through people coming into connection with where we're from and who we are has been really challenging. And this just felt like a platform for us to kind of like grapple with that together. And even after and like the editing and the conversation, but we wanted to be in the movie, it just allowed us to like heal a little bit, I think. And like just allowed me to find like peace with a lot of it. And yeah, it's it's crazy, man. You've talked so much about today, like kind of we've been weaving this idea of mental health and just how important it is to you. The documentary, you speak about it quite openly has success made mental health harder in some ways or has it made it better in some ways? It's hard to say like my mental health challenges weren't going anywhere whether I became a musician, like a touring, like professional musician or whatever I am. They weren't going anywhere. I would have been interested to see how they manifested. I think it's introduced this lifestyle and this like level of like, like I said, this like self-focused kind of business lifestyle has created a lot of mental health challenges for me, but also has kind of allowed me to confront them in a way that maybe like if I went to college and went and got a job in an office or somewhere I could probably more easily not ever deal with it. Interesting, yeah. So in a lot of ways, I think it's helped me, but it's also introduced a lot of different challenges into my life that you see in the documentary, but also just wouldn't be there without music and touring and creative struggle and just all the things that go along with being in this like weird, can industry. Yeah. What's your most daily or regular experience from a mental health point of view that you go through? I think a lot of it's just like self-image and that like extends to like physical image, but also like mental image. Like I worry that I've just wasted so much time like hating who I am and just like being aware of this thing that's happening to me that like it feels like it's grinding me down sometimes and like and knowing that I have this thing and that knowing that it could be better, but it's not right now. Like that's probably my most like I wake up and I'm like, why do I feel like shit? Like I'm pissed. It's a beautiful morning. The birds are churping. It's beautiful outside. I've you know, career, success aside, I have like I have this like lovely little life and I wish I could wake up and not be like miserable for no reason. It feels like sometimes and being aware of like those moments that I just can't feel connected. It's really lonely and I think that's probably my like daily. That's like my daily driver that feeling. I think I kind of that feeling escalates and escalates and I it comes like these bigger more intense like episodes for me of mental health. But that's what is kind of the backdrop to my days like darn I feel a shit. The sucks and I have to just like wade through it every day and it gets easier and there's days that are better and worse, but like generally I just kind of am feeling like I wish I didn't feel depressed. You know. Yeah. I felt it was really brave for you to address the body dysmorphia image approach. I wasn't expecting that and I think you kind of really went there. It felt so courageous in one sense to do that and of course honest. Yeah. I feel like I don't know. And I say it in the documentary just like I don't know where I fit into like the world of this thing. I'm going through. I'm never really confronted in a way that's like and this is how I feel about it. It's like it's just a thing that lives in the back of my brain that is like more prominent than other times. And it really came out the documentary and I watching that back is like even I mean man even my mom was just like I had no idea like she knew I had something like that but she didn't know like how much it was affecting me and even just seeing myself. I'm like I don't feel like that right now, but like I do feel like that a lot. And it's like it's hard when the thing that you really compartmentalize and you lock away like is now there. Yeah. And so it's scary from even the talk to you about it because I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to I know how much of an issue this is for people and how it can ruin lives and how hard it is for people's mental health. That I'm always so afraid that I'm like I don't want to represent an issue because I'm afraid of like saying the wrong thing or giving advice or like I don't know of like making it feel like I know what I'm talking about because I have no idea. It's just this thing that is there within me and yeah really really difficult concept because it's so tied up in who you are and just feelings you've had since you were a kid that like it's hard to describe like the body dysmorphia problem succinctly and I even as you can hear right now struggling I struggle to do it. But it's complicated man and it was easy. I think it's easy to say like I want to talk about that but when it comes down to talk about it like I don't feel eloquent at all. I don't feel articulate. I feel like it's just just like dream like stance that I have to fall into. It's weird. It's a strange challenge that we put on ourselves and other people to properly articulate these extremely nuanced daily regular feelings that are that don't always make sense like in one sense we're trying to finally package up some perfect words around something that changes how we feel about a daily. And it's almost it's almost an impossible task. Totally. Because you're absolutely right that you can feel something one day people feel it differently. I just felt like you don't see a lot of men especially being able to say that publicly. And so I think it's going to help a lot of men and just even coming to terms with it. Yeah. I remember like I have this song called the Shape My Shadow which was really one of those like our moments where I like felt really aware and understanding of my struggle with it and like it goes away. But in that moment I wrote this song and played it live on Role Mental Health Day and before the years ago and was like hearing it being heard for the first time and then walking off stage and like having people might. in my crew and people in my life come up to me and be like, "Dude, man, especially I go through that too." That was cool, you did that, bro. I feel that one. People that I wouldn't expect, I think you think body dysmorphia and you're physically looking at somebody and how do you look? Is this person look overweight? They'll probably connect with it. This person will look really skinny. They'll probably, it's not how it is, man. It's almost not even about your body at all. For me, it's not even about what I actually appear to be is how we think of ourselves. These people coming up and saying that to me was like, this is important. This is something really, really difficult to articulate and to talk about. And the fact that I said three people that probably wouldn't have said anything to me if I never played that song and come up and say, "Hey, dude, thank you," or like, "I get that." That's huge. It was really special. I opened it and it makes you feel more sensitive to people and you just never fucking know what someone's going through, man. You really don't. Yeah, you don't. It's easy to look at somebody and be like, "Your life must be so sick." And then be like, "Man, you have no can clue." Yeah. And you assume that, right? If someone's like, put together or looks a certain way or maybe they're making a decent living or whatever, maybe it's like, we just go, "Well, okay, well, you don't have any real problems." So, you know, it's such a good point. Yeah. I always, whenever I come to LA and do anything like this, I'm always like, "Oh, yeah, I got driven here in the black SUV and I'm not coming here and complain about my shit. People in the world right now going through so much and it does feel like there's a push and pull of like, how do I talk about what I'm going through without like being insensitive to like, people who are struggling in much more significant. I are just different but significant ways. Well, also not discrediting what I've gone through at the same time. It's been a real challenge for me to talk about. I hope that in the documentary, people can see that through line through everybody's life that regardless of sex, creed, class, gender identity, race, that people can like find things that connect us, like these feelings that are painful. I like to think everybody's experiencing something similar in some way and maybe that's not true but that's like my hope is that there's like, "Well, peace, but like, we all can have a conversation no matter what we're from about our mental health and how it's affecting us and like, we can hear similarities and some things and that's what I hope is true because with everything that's going on in the world right now, like how divided the world is and how awful people are being treated right now, that we can find ways to be brought together through vulnerability and through being honest with each other about how we feel. Is that how you think about making an impact on the world with everything you see? Is that where you focus? I think just trying to be completely honest about how I feel, like whenever I can, because then it doesn't feel like you have to perform and I was talking to somebody last night at this like weird party thing and I was just like, "Dude, if you start making music like trying to sound like somebody, then when the time comes to like, you want to be yourself, it's gonna feel like you're lying." So like if you can just be as honest as you can and like accept whatever that does for you socially, career wise, emotionally, like live and die by that because then you never have to change and you never have to adjust your presentation. All you have to do is reach within which you've been doing forever anyway. Yeah, that's yeah. And that's I think that's the difference also between activism musicians. An actor does have to pretend to be someone and that does affect their personality and it does affect their self-image and it can deeply affect everything from the way they speak to the way they look. Have you done acting? I have not in any major. I always wonder how you bring, I wonder if the best actors bring in, like they bring in more themselves in a way to this different character so that it creates something relatable. Yes, yeah. So I think there's, I forget what the technique's called from some study that I've done in the space with some clients that I have who are actors and they talk about that where it's like, if you you can't pretend to have an emotion, you've got to find the emotion or the experience within yourself to bring it out. But at the same time, I think a lot of people, especially if you're doing a biopic, you can find the emotion within yourself, but ultimately it's still becoming someone else to some degree. Is there a party you that feels that way and how do you get comfortable approaching that and almost reminds me of the music and the documentary. I'm just like, how do you go back into this space over and over again? It's painful, dude. It's gotta be painful because we all have smaller, I think some people have bigger parts of that that kind of character than others do. I think we all have cynical parts of us in angry parts of us, but some people just don't have as much access or don't have as big of angry bone inside of them, but it's gotta be hard to have to live in that moment. I think that's actually where real compassion comes from. When you can look at your own heart, and notice that it has all of these abilities and has aspects of all of these things that you may not live on a daily basis, but you start seeing it and you go, "Oh, I see how that comes out for someone else because I've seen that in me." Even if it's tiny, if that makes sense. Totally, man. I always think the goal is going to be a perfect person, at all. The goal is to understand the parts of you that make you happy and try to access those, but it's also important to dip into the stuff that you don't like and to question it and to approach it and look at it in the documentary, I say, "I'm finally looking at this thing." It used to be talking about bodies more of your mental illness stuff. It used to be this thing that I was ashamed of in such a big way that I wouldn't even want to look at it. I would just sprint past the door where the thing was inside. I'm finally brushing it with my hand. I'm getting better at approaching it. I'm getting better at understanding that it is there and not being so afraid of it. That journey has been helpful for me. It's almost like the monster under the bed. If you pretend that it's not there, you're scared. It just gets bigger. It just gets bigger. You've got to go and check and say, "Oh, okay, brush the part." It's so important. I think for so long, of course, we want to be in the light, we want to do good work, but you avoid the darkness in those elements that exist. As you said, how shaming do? You can. It does find other ways to manifest. I think it's much healthier to my opinion, sitting down with a therapist is the most important thing you can do with these feelings. It's expressing them in a safe, unbiased place where you could say whatever you want and not feel like you're going to be judged for it. If you don't, I do feel like we have to find a way to cope, we have to find a way to keep not feeling it. Addiction for me, eating, binge eating, not eating is how I deal with a lot of stuff. I realize that's because I don't talk about it enough. I keep wanting it to go away, go away, go away. I find myself engaging in these behaviors that really make me unhappy and make me feel even worse. It's just horrible cycle of just like the thing you think you're doing to help is actually making it harder. Then it just repeats itself and repeats itself. You do it for so good long that the grooves in your brain, there's a little train going through your head that only knows one path and it gets deeper and deeper and deeper and it never has a way to go anywhere else because you just have lived this one routine for so long. Going to therapy, which I've been doing my whole life, but I feel like I wasn't really doing in a real way until five or six, seven years ago where I started to really go into it. What was the difference between going to therapy and then doing therapy? Yeah. Like I said, my mom and my dad were always so supportive of me. My siblings going to get help and going to talk about our feelings. We've all gone through a lot of similar mental health struggles. Thanks, mom and dad. They've been so supportive and always in this therapist, but I think for a while, I was just immature and didn't want to talk to somebody and also it's hard when you're a kid and like to be like, oh, this 48 year old dude is like here to ask you about all this stuff and like obviously you're like, I don't want to talk about it. And you can kind of live your life for a long time like saying the right things, but not actually like really letting anyone hear anything. Yeah. And saying things that sound like you're being emotionally vulnerable or picking and choosing different things that you'll talk about and certain things that you won't talk about. And it's all connected. So when you start doing that, you're actually not really touching the whole thing, which is it's all connected to like one, um, great larger mental health thing. Then it sounds very eloquent. But I guess what I'm trying to say is like, yeah, is I didn't really commit myself to getting better because I wanted to selfishly self centeredly do it on my own and only like express certain fears and emotions to people because I was still afraid of talking about them. And I think when I started seeing this new therapist and so much of it is about the person you see, so I've had bad experiences with therapists and like once you open up to somebody and they like, they don't respect that. It becomes really gonna hard to go talk to somebody else. Like, it's like you open up to a friend and like a breakup. Yeah. And then someone like uses that against you or they laugh at you or they like make you feel crazy. It's not like, okay, I'll try it in the next person. It's like, no, I'm never touching that again. Yeah, you're trying that. It's like a breakup. You hurt me and like, I'm not opening myself up again. So it was kind of being willing to open up again, finding the right person and then like feeling safe. And then slowly, I just like realizing how much more there was than the kind of headlines of what I thought my feelings and issues were and like being asked questions that maybe dig a little deeper and like being willing to cry. and say, "I don't want to talk about this." And what was really complicated for me, what's still complicated is like, and I do say this in the documentary, is being a mental health advocate, you know, like having this mental health charity, which like we're also proud of. - Beautiful, really beautiful. - Presenting, and presenting myself as someone that like has an answer or has like a focus and like is gonna be really open and emotionally vulnerable all the time and then not feeling like I was really practicing that in my personal life. It makes it hard and therapy to like accept that I don't have all the answers. It kind of creates this feeling like you're not being honest about who you are. And that was really difficult. - What's the best question you're therapist ever asked you? - I think it's like, do you want this to be what's happening to you? In some ways, like is it so much easier for you to cause yourself pain and to hurt yourself and is that actually something that you're is bringing you comfort? Like is this like in pain that you're reflecting on yourself emotionally, occasionally physically? Is it actually something that you have become comfortable with? Is it this long time friendier that you don't want to leave because you feel like you're betraying something and betraying this childhood pain or whatever it is? That was a great question and maybe think about it because I think I've always been like, I hate this thing. Like I want to get rid of this, but like, no, sometimes I'm like, no, I don't. Like, and she's like, I don't know if you do. Do you? Because it feels like you want the comfort of this thing you've had for a long time. And it's become such a big part of your life that you don't know who you are without it. And it's scarier to be someone that's happy, but not familiar with something then to be unhappy but feel like you're in the safety of your own unhappiness. Oh, that was, that sounded great. (laughing) - You saw my reaction. - Damn, dude, she was like, I put that in the song. But that was like the most important thing. I think she's asked me and she's asked me, she's just so wonderful. I don't, I hope my therapist isn't watching this, but thank you so much. But that question really helped me understand the context of what I was really feeling. - Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of people get a lot from asking that question to themselves or hopefully going through that with their therapist. I think you said, in the 2024 Grammy Prize, you were like talking about parties earlier, you were saying you felt like the least cool guy there. And it was like, that was the feeling you were having at that time and that goes back to that image and grappling with that emotion. And is there a bit more peace now? Because that was your first time being there, right? It was like, you're nomin' it. Do you think that is natural when you're doing something new and first time and then it goes away? Like, what's your ex? - Totally. Yeah, absolutely. I think like, I think I really wanted the experience to be what I'd always dreamed of 'cause I'd always dreamed of that experience. And so like, I got in there and the vision of like, what I thought I was gonna feel and what I thought it was gonna look like, like just wasn't what it was. And I just kind of felt like outside of all of it. And it wasn't anyone's fault. It was really just me not having the confidence to like engage with this new experience and wanted to be comfortable. And so I felt really isolated. And then my mom is like talking to everybody and she had one love sir and like, I'm like, damn, my mom's so cool. And I'm just sitting here. The mom and Brandy Carlisle are talking and like my mom loves Brandy. And like, I just kind of felt like the kid in the cafeteria that like didn't have anyone to sit with. And just knowing that like the end of the night, the only measure of success I was putting into the night was if I won this Grammy or not. Because I had built this thing up and be so and being important to me. And so it kind of made me feel like I had no purpose in the room. I felt like my purpose was no longer needed. And that was no one's fault. And it was on me for putting all the stock into this award. But I didn't feel cool. And then I lost and long with many others. So like I'm always curious to see how they would deal with it. 'Cause I was so sad and I was like, obviously happy for the person I won truly and like grateful that I was even nominated. And like just like walking to a room full of people who like I was so worried we're gonna be like disappointed and like not mad at me, but like almost like their experience was that they wanted me to wait. I was projecting how I thought everyone wanted this night to go. And so like walking into the room with like my family, my friends, my wife, like all these people, my team, who had worked so hard and like just feeling a disappointment. Like just really made me feel like all of a sudden island and that I like had let everybody down in my life. And I feel like I let my fans down. I was like, I wanted this so bad. Like sorry guys. - We wanted it for you too. - Yeah, I think they did, man. - Yeah. - I know that's not the case, but this time it's like, I feel like I've gone through so much sense then and like reevaluating what I care about and like realizing that what I care most about is the story that I can tell with my music and the music that I can make. And that no one can take it away from me, no one can vote on it and no one else can have it. And like nurturing this thing. And so coming back, you know, having a new album feeling like I'm really excited about it, really proud of it, proud of the journey that I went on to get to making this album, which was really difficult. And like that's where my confidence is coming from right now. Not from whether I have good songs or not, but just knowing that I went through something and I'm on the other side now. When I was at the 24 Grammys, I was like, grappling with all this creative insecurity and this insecurity about where my career was gonna go. And I thought that a granny was gonna like, like that like, you know, an image you see on like a meme or whatever, like the guy puts like one piece of duct tape on the giant exploding water tank. Like I think that was what I was hoping the Grammy would be for me. That's good. That's really good. And like it was never gonna be that anyways. And so like knowing that now makes the more like, at peace with just like being able to be in this conversation, being able to be amongst the peers that I have that are incredible musicians. And yeah, I feel, I don't feel cooler, I feel more comfortable in like my own skin and my own presence. - Yeah, I really appreciate the way you process that for us 'cause I think 99% of us are always dealing with situations where we felt like we lost or failed or, but it seems like you've addressed a really powerful pattern that I think's come up a few times in that when you're watching the documentary with your father, you're like, wait, what's his experience of it? And even now when you're talking about being at the Grammys, you're like, what's everyone else's expectation to experience of it? And it seems like you've really addressed like a really powerful pattern of something that seems to come up for you, which is always projecting what you think of the people's experiences. And that's really powerful that you can see that as being a sign of whenever you're doing something big or incredible. - Bro, it's projection is like so difficult because it forces you to question like everything you've thought about other people's perception of you. And also like as my career has like grown, like there's, I mean, you saw today, I'm most lovely people around me in the world. - They're wonderful, yeah. I love you, Tiday. - Every single person that I get to work with is awesome. And that's very rare, especially in the music industry where you get people that are there for the wrong reasons or whatever, but whenever you go, you have style and hair and PR and management and label and whatever agent and all these people around you, you kind of feel like they're like, they need it to go well. Like that's a projection. And so you start being like, are you guys having fun? Like are you guys doing this? Are you guys enjoying this? Like did I do good enough for you guys? - Yeah, I'm just adding energy and something. - Yeah, the same time. - Totally dude. I think it like it all ties back to like that thing around the dinner table and like wanting to be heard and wanting to be accepted and wanting people to think that you have value. And when you can't find that in here in your heart or in your brain, like you needed to be provided by other people. And I'm struggling with that right now, like just with my album coming out and just like how I'm gonna take in responses to it, good and bad. I think like every good comment and every bad comment like have a similar reaction from me actually. Like they move me so much. You know, like if someone says that I did a good job I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Someone says that I suck. I'm like, I suck. Like I want to find somewhere in the middle where like I can still have my own belief in myself. Equilibrium is a great way to put it. I would love to find more of that in my life. - Yeah, and it's such a hard place to live because we also used to being really pumped up with the highs. And I always feel like the more pumped up you get with the highs, the more pulled out and you get with the lows. And that's the experience we all have. And all I can say is honestly, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this with your team listening, but I listen to what you did send us with the team, with my team because everyone's fine. And everyone loved it. And it was just like this is like, you know, (laughing) Exactly, it was just yeah. And it was genuinely that experience where we were listening to it and because I was thinking about the interview and I was thinking about like, I know I was really thinking about this. I mean, for whatever it's worth. And I think that equilibrium is what we all need to rise for. And it's something I pursued deeply and focus on. And I found it was only when I could detach equally from the good and the bad. - Totally do. - And it was like, if I kept letting the good pump me up, the bad was always gonna hit me. And so I had to find it and it wasn't rejecting the good 'cause that also didn't work. 'Cause for a while I tried to like reject good. - That's how you do it. - Yeah, if someone was like, well, I'm still working on it too. I haven't fully figured it out, but I feel like I'm getting closer all the time. So in the beginning I was like, same as what you're saying. Someone says something good, amazing if someone says something bad, I feel sad. Then I did the opposite, I was rejecting both. So if someone said something good, I'd be like, oh, I would have like, I don't need to know. And if someone says something bad, I'd be like, oh, I don't need to know. - Yeah, that's where, that's a part I'm at. - Yeah, and I was like, that doesn't work either, because now, and then what I started to realize was, I allowed the good to go in deeper and I allowed the bad to almost be filtered more clearer. And what I mean by that is, instead of the good going to my head and my ego and that kind of arrogance, it was going to my heart as fuel for like, this is why I do what I do. - Gotcha. - So if someone said to me, hey, your work, would you, would you, like your work helped me to save my marriage or not commit suicide or whatever it is. I was like, oh, let me really access that. Like, don't just take it as like this. - Yeah, like buzz. - Like don't be, yeah, it's like take it, take it where it lands. And then when you get feedback or you get the bad, it's like, oh, let me not take that to my heart and let me actually allow that to be like, or let me get the clarity of what could I improve or what could I work on. - So complicated man, but so smart, we just said it. - It's subtle, it's very subtle, but it's helping at least. I'm not saying it's the end, I think there's multiple layers to it. - Can I have two more about that? - Of course, it's our introduction. - Oh no, no, no, no. Like letting the good in, and I totally feel that, 'cause I think I started to do that as well. It's like, this isn't just like a dopamine hit. Like I'm not putting a zit in my mouth right now. This is like, there's something there that's important. I like, I have to internalize to help me do it again and do more of it. And like to kind of like hone in on that specific thing. But how when someone says something hurtful to you, or like, I guess it's like hate versus criticism are two different conversations. But like, when someone says something hurtful to you, like how are you taking that in? How do you let that in? 'Cause it just like, it can like, shit some of my stomach and like makes me feel like shit. - Oh yeah, I can relate. - Yeah, or a little bit. Yes, the worst. I think what I've tried to do is to try and separate if possible, and not everything is, right? It's like, if you've got muddy water, there's mud and water. And my job is to get the water and remove the mud so that I can give drinking water to myself and the people I love. - Yeah. - And so my job is to be a sieve or a filter to be able to go, or let me take the mud out, which is the sting, the pain, the hurt, the egoed arrogance, and see if there's any water left for me to hold. And if there is, then that water will actually rest quite beautifully and perfectly. And now I don't have to take it in. It's something I just have to hold and make space for, but I'm not gonna hold onto the mud and the sting and the arrow because that's the part that pierces through us and breaks us down. That's really, really beautiful. - Yeah, and it takes practice, like I'm not saying I do it all the time and I'm not saying I don't fail at this all the time, but it's like, I think that practice has been really helpful because accepting both didn't work, rejecting both didn't work, and the Buddha always talked about the middle path. And it's always like, if you're gonna hold something, don't hold it too tight, but then you can't hold it too loosely. So it's like, how do you hold something just beautifully? - Yeah. - It's almost like how you'd hold your wife's hand. - I don't wanna go from Buddha to golf, but golf. It's like, you wanna have like a bird in your hand that you're not gonna crush me, won't let get away. - That's a Buddha and I, that's actually, that's really fun. - Oh, no way. - Yeah, we gotta get you on the golf course. (laughing) - But dude, if you're holding your wife's hand, you're not gonna squish it, where is she? She never wants, like, you're like, oh, you're never gonna leave. But you're never gonna hold it softly where you don't have any affection. It's like, I feel like holding my wife's hand is like a good. - That's a really good analogy. I mean, that's a really brilliant way to do it. I have like really struggled to accept criticism and like, and I mean, any like hate or anything like that. - Dude, me too. And I think there is a difference. - There's a difference. - I think you have to. - There's some shit that's like, oh, yeah. - There's some shit like that. - But even criticism can be hard. Like, take it so hard and like. - And I think it's hard because we don't deeply receive in the hot, the good. - Yeah. - It's kind of 'cause it's just the dopamine. - Yeah, so it's like, we deeply receive the bad. - That's so true. - And then we just have to actually feel, right? - I think that's why we like, sometimes I watch like these horror movies and I'm like, oh man, I hate the part where they're all like, happy in the beginning. I'm like, get to the part where they're all getting chopped up. You know, that's like what, that's this thing inside of us that like, that feels more like. For some people, for me, it feels more like, that's the stuff that reaches you more. 'Cause it's painful and scary. - Yes. - I'm not a psycho. But dude, that's really, really eye-opening for me. And I want so bad to work on that. - Yeah. - And work on accepting the good too. And I'm a rejector of the good a lot of times. Because it's like, this superstition of like, have I let any good in then like, then it'll all go away. 'Cause like, I need to be like, I said, like, I need to be in pain. But there's gotta be a way. Like you said, to like, to take it without it, killing me, but with also like, in a way that I can take the less and away from it. - I love that man. (upbeat music) - No, you've been amazing today. Like, truly, I feel like, you're the easiest guy to talk to. You're like, so much fun to hang with. Like, I'm like, I hope we get to do this offline. But we end every episode with a couple of segments that I wanna take you through. These are fun because you're such a fun, loving guy. So now we-- - And before you go, I wanna say thank you, man, because like, getting to talk about this kind of stuff in this way, like, is not common for me. And so it really means a lot, like, and listening to you care about the questions you're asking in the responses. Just for me, has been like, really cool. And, you know, I've listened to your show and everyone says, like, this dude is demand and like, you are awesome and like, if you're in tension, like, into the world for what you're doing is really, really special. And right now, I need it more than ever. So thank you, dude. It's like, for real, you're the shit. Like, I would say, as off camera, I'll say it on camera, like, you are awesome, bro. Thank you. - Oh, man. That really touched my heart. Thank you for saying that. - Yeah. I mean it, dude. - I'm practicing what I said earlier, which is really allowing that to-- - Yeah. - But also something shitty to you. (laughing) - Yeah, and then I'm gonna try and bring it down to the pot. (laughing) - Not meant that, thank you, bro. I think it's been fun. Honestly, that means the world for me coming from you. And this has not even felt like an interview. I feel like, honestly, those are my favorite conversations. We've just been talking and I could talk to you in a few hours. - I was like, I know, it's over. - Yeah, I know, I can keep going. - I can keep going, I just want to be mindful of you. - No, thank you. - These are some fun segments to do, such a fun, loving guy to end with. And I was like, yeah, this guy's music so deep, but he's just such a good time. - That was a big guy. - So, all right, these are two little games that we got. And then we have a final five that we do with every guest. If you've listened to you, no. This is called, would you rather? - All right. - Wave back at someone who wasn't waving at you or tell you a server at a restaurant, you too, after they tell you enjoy your meal. - Dude, there's nothing, the world worst than waving at someone that doesn't wave back, bro. It's gotta be the server one, because they walk right away. The wave one, they're like, they're gonna see that for a few seconds as they pass you. - So that's where? - Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. - Okay. - Trippin' Fall on stage at one of your concerts or forget the lyrics to your song while performing on national TV. - I've tripped in fall so many times. Trippin' Fall on so many times that people are almost expecting it. So I'd say tripping and falling. Forgetting where it's not to be. - And you just pop right back up. - You just gotta get back up and go, dude. (laughing) - That's amazing. - Be extremely self aware or completely oblivious. - Well, you're just talking about this. Ooh, I wanna say beacon-ple-ly oblivious, but like, it would kind of like spit in the face to conversation we just said. I'd say be completely self aware, 'cause there's always room to, you can make yourself look a little bit more oblivious if you want to. Send a text by accident to the person you're talking about or accidentally like a really old photo while stalking them on Instagram. - Oh, it's so tough 'cause the text one could be terrible depending on what you're saying, but like in the old photo is like crazy. Like I've had that happen to me, obviously, and like people, like, do what? You're doing, the amount of times you must have scrolled to get to that photo. I think sending a text by accident, but those are both bad things. - They're both bad, yeah. Your dog can talk and has a very strong personality that clashes with yours. - Oh, your dog can't talk, but they don't really like you. - That's what I already have, dude. I have German shepherds who look at me, they're just like, yeah, you're gonna play video games like another spliff, great. Like I think probably dogs don't like me 'cause I can convince myself that they're just like, look, mean. - I love it. - Play around with tiger woods, but you accidentally hit him with the ball on the very first hole. - Oh shit. - Or play the best game of your life at a fancy country club, but you're alone and can never tell a soul how good your game was. - Oh, dude, these are really hard. - It's been very hard. - I think I would probably curl up a new ball and die for a hit tiger woods with a golf ball. I think I'd have to display by myself and play well, which doesn't happen to me anyway, so perfect. - So it's not really a choice. - Yeah. - All right, so this game's called Gut Reaction, Noah, just complete the sentence. My favorite compliment to receive is, I love your shoes. I love getting a compliment on my shoes. I was asked to ask you where your shoes are from when you walked in today and I waited 'cause I was like, I need a parent. - It's happening. - It's happening, it's happening. I was genuinely gonna ask you. - I mean, I've been working for shoes with those laces for a while. - Yeah, these analysts are nice. - Yeah, yeah. I want, yeah. All right, we'll talk about shoes later. My guilty pleasure artist or song is, "Semio Mawai rusted root." - Okay, all right. The most unhinged store I've had this week was. - Oh, dude, I was deriving and I was had as untrusive thought where I was like, that's probably like the most edu-ship. But I was like, I could just like, just swerve to that lane and just like, everything up, bro. - I've had that thought before, yeah. - Isn't it crazy? I think he's like, wait, why did my brain go that? - Yeah, like, oh Jesus Christ. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like rearranging my hands to make sure I'm like, very much staying on my own lane. But that's probably my craziest one. The hill I will die on for no reason is. - Mac and cheese is just like not very good. I think it's like a pretty creatively boring dish, like literally just wheat and cheese melted. Like, I feel like caveman probably was the first person to make mac and cheese. And I think people go a little too crazy for it. People get too excited. They make it in such large quantities as well. - You and my wife would have a big debate over that. - And people really don't like what I say that. - Yeah, you and my wife would. The weirdest place I've written a song is. - I wrote a song in the bathroom of JFK one time. Which was crazy. Like, it's like, I think I was hung over and it just came to me and I was like, this would be a fun story to tell if I finished a song and I wrote a whole song on my phone. It hasn't come out, but if it ever does, that'll be a fun one to tell. - Okay, so it's not out yet. - Yeah. - We're all taking a shit, brother. That's what's gonna be called. (laughing) - One thing my wife makes fun of me for is. (laughing) I liked to just sit there and we got these big bags of a Tutsi Roll and Mini Tutsi Roll Pops and I'll sit there in one bite. Just crunch the entire thing. And I'll do like 50 in a row. She calls it crunch time. And it's just hilarious 'cause you just hear my teeth like shattering against a lot of pops and cheese. I think she just hates it. I don't know. like she makes fun of it as much, but that's a weird thing that I do around my wife. - Do you do on purpose now? - I just love it, dude. I'm not the patientist like lick it or whatever. I'm just like, like in my teeth, my insides hours, dude, they just destroy that thing. - That's amazing. All right, which fellow music star would you call to help you bury a dead body? - I'm calling my buddy Nile Horn. I think he would do with me. - Nice, all right. - That's a good, that was quick. You were like, I know, I would do it. He owes me one. (laughing) And the last one of these, forgot reaction. - First artist you'd want next to you on a long bus tour ride. - Ooh, oh my God. My buddy Corey Harper, awesome singer songwriter. One of my best friends in the world and it's like the funniest man alive. - Yeah. - Amazing. - Got reaction, you were good. That was great. - That was a great question. - That was a really impressive. All right, final five we ask is to every guest who's ever been on the show. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence. - Okay. - Usually one sentence. First question. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received? - Be where your feet are. - Great, second question. What is the worst advice you've ever had or received? - Played safe. - Yeah. - Question number three, what's something you used to value that you don't anymore? - I don't value like my physical appearance as much as I used to. - What? - Yeah, which I can expand. - Yeah please. - Oh I can't know. - Yeah, I'm like, I only got one sentence. - No, no, no, no, no, no. - Like I took me a long time to be comfortable the way I looked, like my face, the way I look. And while I want to be healthy and I want to have better body image, I don't like need people to think I'm attractive. And that's been a cool thing, just kind of beginning to be myself. - That sounds really freeing. - Yeah, it's dope. - Yeah, that's awesome man. - Love hearing that. Question number four, what's something that you didn't value that you value now? - My time. I think I was, I value my time more than I, I value my time more than I ever have. I always wanted to grind so hard and like, be the dog that just like works as hard or harder than anybody else. And now I'm like, so much like this is my time. I'm gonna do what makes me feel good in this moment instead of like feeling like I need to be doing a million things. - I love that. And fifth and final question, we asked this to every guest on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? I was gonna say using your blinker when you turn, but that's actually already a law and people just don't follow it. (laughing) - So great, I could create one law. You are not legally allowed to post videos of fireworks. Like I'm so tired of seeing people post videos like Fourth of July, I might do. That looks horrible. No one sees what you're trying to look at. You're laughing, your hands are shaking. Like just enjoy the fireworks, good. That's it. (laughing) - We've never had that in the history of the show. So that is a great honor. - That's like, I might actually like that. I might need to like start petitioning for that to become a real law. - I love it. - No, you are such a good time. I hope you, I hope you genuinely felt seen and heard today on the show. I hope you felt you got to share in a safe space where you're going through and really did, man. And a long way to continue, I hope you'll come back. I hope we'll do a lot more of this. - Dude, totally. And yeah, let's go play pickleball or something. - Yeah, let's do it. - Yeah, it's out of it. And I appreciate being on the show. It's really, really cool experience and very helpful. And hopefully people hear this. And yeah, like we both want, feel heard. So thank you, man. - Thank you, man. Thank you. - If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more. I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin. - Follow your own inner guide. It directs us. It might not make sense to us. Might not make sense to anyone else. Certainly, it won't make sense to anyone else. And that's okay. It's fine. - No gloss, no filter. Just stories spoken without fear. - For a person who is not generous, cannot be an artist. - The world will be at peace only when it is ruled by poor simple laws of art. - Listen to my weekly podcast, The Pooja Bhatt Show, and the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Come for the honesty, stay for the fire. This is an I Heart podcast, guaranteed human.