Nó em fio d'água

-Novelo. -Novelo. Hi, I'm Giovanna Girardi and this is the sixth episode of "Tempo Quente", an original podcast from Radio Novelo. And if you've been following me here the whole week, which I strongly suggest you do to make more sense, you must have remembered that the last episode was a little different. We talked about a recent chapter of Brazilian environmental policy that could have changed the direction of how Brazil faces the climate crisis. So we could have made this lemon with a beautiful lemonade, a beautiful caipirinha, because if we had established the priority... We could have made it if we had established it, but it didn't, it didn't, right? This is Anatoly Unterstel, one of the coordinators of Brazil 2040. A project that was commissioned in 2013 by the federal government for unspeakable, without explanation, less than two years later. I think Caldo got involved, because when you joined Belo Monte in the Dilma government, everything was in place to protect this investment, it was the girl in her eyes. So any stone would be removed from the path. And there was a lot of stone on the way to Belo Monte. And let's remember that Belo Monte was already being contested at that exact moment for several other reasons. We were giving an additional argument about not doing that kind of hydroelectricity in those places, what kind of technology. That kind of hydroelectricity, in those places, with that kind of technology. Remember that in the first episode of "Tempo Quente" I asked you to imagine an energy generation plant in the country, and that I bet that you imagine an hydroelectric plant, not a coal plant. That's because the majority of the electricity in Brazil is of hydroelectric origin. I spent my whole life hearing that Brazil has vocation for hydroelectricity. And that always made a lot of sense, because Brazil has the highest concentration of sweet water in the world. And what a luck, because the water is free, right? And besides that, hydroelectricity generates clean energy. You should have already heard someone gossiping about that. Reina, here, is the idea that Brazil is the country that most collaborates for combating climate change, because we have clean energy, unlike the majority of the great powers that depend on how strong they are. So, at least in regard to electricity, we don't even need to force ourselves to be aligned with the demands of global climate crisis. Or at least that's what we thought until recently. The thing is that it always made sense, until now. And we've already started to see in the last episode that maybe it won't happen again. At least not in the same way. Today we're going to talk about a specific hydroelectric museum. It's the same one, Belo Monte. And how it went forward, even with all the prognosis, saying that it was going to be very wrong. And look, what a beautiful mountain was a wrong choice. This is the opinion of many people. Even the greatest hydroelectric defender I know has reservations about the result of the work. Belo Monte, I think that what happened to Belo Monte ended up becoming an absurd theater, right? This is the physicist José Goldenberg, who shared his whole life between the Academy and the public policy. He is the former rector of USP, the former president of FAPESP, and he has also been Secretary of State and the Federal Environment. Goldenberg endures the color of hydroelectric as a national vocation. Look, Mr. Werner, all the countries throughout the time explored the natural resources that were more available to them. For example, England, which is a country where there are very few mountains and few rivers, to use hydroelectric energy was out of question. And here in Brazil it is evident. It is evident. But even believing in vocation, he is aware that this scenario has already changed a lot. 25 years ago, the electricity fraction that came from hydroelectric here in Brazil was 80%. Today it is approximately 60%. And now it will be reduced to 48%. Goldenberg highlighted one of the reasons for the fall of the participation of hydroelectric in the electric matrix in Brazil. And no, it was not the hydroelectric crisis. Because since that huge controversy that occurred around Belo Monte, the hydroelectric plants in Brazil have been built, practically, without reservations. Hydroelectric plants, practically, without reservations. Let's take a step back here. For us to press the switch and the light on at home, to turn on the liquidifier, the TV, the hair dryer, the microwave, the vacuum cleaner, charge the cell phone. To do all this, humanity had to be very creative to invent ways to transform several types of energy into electrical energy. We have already talked about the energy of fossil sources here. It burns coal, for example, and takes advantage of the heat of this burn. There is nuclear, which takes advantage of free energy in the fission of atoms. And hydroelectric, we know, takes advantage of the water movement energy. A trick is to install the gas in some natural level of a river, like a waterfall, or make an artificial change in the river course, like a reservoir where the drain that lets you regulate the flow of water to produce the energy that you want. That is, it is possible to generate electricity even in rivers, and there are many sites in the interior that do this for their own consumption. But to generate a lot of energy, to supply industries, urban centers, for example, this flow of water has to be very intense and voluminous. The most conventional solution to guarantee this is to put a dam and make a big reservoir, that is, to store a huge piece of land. That was what was done in the construction of several museums in Brazil, such as Tucuruí, Balbina, Sobradinho. Jaitaipu destroyed the biggest waterfall that existed in the country, the dazzling seven falls of the Paraná River, which disappeared for the construction of the reservoir of the museum. Making electricity in Brazil may have even made a lot of sense, but this decision brought a huge history of environmental damage. And no government, neither right nor left, have ever paid account of these damage. And even because of that, when the pressures caused by these damage increased, an alternative was painted. The water line buildings. The idea is to create a very small reservoir and turn off the natural flow of the river. Belo Monte ended up being built in this second way, the water line, and I'm going to talk more about that later. But going back to Goldenberg, what he was saying is that since the controversy of Belo Monte, Brazil has built no big reservoirs. In addition to Belo Monte, to quote two examples, both Santo Antônio and Giral, two buildings made in Rio Madeira and Rondônia, also during the PT government, were made in the water line. The two were finished in 2016. Now, if on the one hand these buildings have, theoretically, a smaller environmental impact, they have a greater impact on the efficiency of the energy system, because a small reservoir depends more on rain and is more subject to the flow of the climate. Because the rain regime is the same variable in all the countries in the world, and it is also variable here in the country. Yes, the rain regimes have always been variable, but this variation is oscillating much more recently because of the climate crisis. And this totally changes the energy generation scenario. What to say? With scarcity, or at least with greater variability in the rain regime, the purely energetic logic would be, in addition to diversifying the matrix, to build large reservoirs to guarantee the generation of energy in a dry period. But is this the best way out? But do you think we should still have reservoirs, professor? Do you think it makes sense at the moment? Of course, it always defends the reservoirs. The reservoir of Melomonte, which was planned, was a reserve of 500 km², which would not make it, so 500 km² of forest, which is bad. It happens that today, without a reservoir, 10,000 km² per year are being destroyed. Every year. That is, people simply lose their perspective of what is happening in the Amazon. These 500 km² that Goldenberg is quoting is what was actually built. In the original plan, the reservoir of Belomonte was in a dam area almost three times bigger. Anyway, what he's saying is, "Ah, they didn't want to waste 500 km² and now they're going to destroy 10,000." But that's not the issue, right? Ah, but there's nothing to do with the other one, right, professor? The 10,000 km² that are being destroyed in other places, for other reasons, right? That's right, but it happens that making big reservoirs has impacts, right? So, that's what Celeuma, which the government practically abandoned the idea of building dams with reservoirs. Controversy to Celeuma. Do you remember the project Brazil 2040? Forget it. What is the reason that Goldenberg is talking has nothing to do with the pressure of scientists. Belomonte produces about 5,000,000 km², which benefits a population of at least 3,000,000 people, who live very far from Belomonte. They live in Rio de Janeiro, in Sao Paulo, or in other large urban centers in the country. I mean, you know, playing with everything in the world, right? Everything in life, right? Things have costs and benefits, and you have to balance the costs and benefits. I mean, it's not possible to make the right decision in relation to the hydroelectric power, only because the river populations are affected. Of course, it's unfortunate that they are affected, but there are benefits. Costs and benefits. Benefits for some, costs for others. Hello, Mr. Raimundo. Good morning. Good morning. Remember that at the end of episode 4, I had arrived in Altamira after 10 hours of travel through the Amazon with Cláudio, Tássio and Carlão? One of the reasons I wanted to get there is because Altamira is one of the most affected places in the construction of Belomonte. But before I knew the region of Ozina, I agreed to talk to Ribeirinho, who was resettled because of the work. This is Raimundo Braga Gomes, more known in the social movement as Raimundo Berro Grosso. It was not difficult to understand my life condition. This is Raimundo Braga Gomes, more known in the social movement as Raimundo Berro Grosso. It was not difficult to understand why this nickname, when I visited Mr. Raimundo in the first-class house. What is the advantage of having a fancy house in the city? I can't afford to pay for energy. Mr. Raimundo was not drunk. He seemed sad, but in the bravest of his talk, it is clear where the nickname comes from. This little house is in Altamira's periphery. In a popular housing, thousands of homeless people from Ozina earned as part of the donation. Who paid was North Energy, the company responsible for the construction and the operation of Belomonte. Mr. Raimundo told me that besides the little house, the company offered a cost help of less than a minimum salary per month for the homeless. Today we are living a life of variation. We earn a discount of R$ 900 and buy a 120-year-old house. To measure my house, I have to pay only for transportation, to take my boat and bring it, I pay R$ 140. And then there comes the fuel, the wind comes, when you arrive in the river with 50, 60, that amount of weight, you don't pay the expenses. Then we complain, "Life is difficult." Then we complain, "No, we have a researcher in the river who researched the cargo that is increasing. Only the researcher sees the cargo that is increasing and the fisherman who knows the river doesn't know where to spend it. It's increasing." It's a complicated relationship, Mr. Raimundo. On the one hand, Mr. is critical, North Energy, but on the other hand, if you don't have this money, you won't have a way to live today. Today I say, with the lack of fish that was taken from the river, this money came at a good time. But there's no more fish in the river because of them, right? They were the ones who took it. I tried to hear North Energy for the hot weather, but they sent an official response saying they weren't going to show up. Well, when this episode was already scheduled to air, North Energy's accessories decided to appear out of nowhere with the answers to my questions. Two months after they said they weren't going to show up. We didn't have time for the episode, but for those who want to check, the official responses are on our website. RadioNovelo.com.br/tempoquende A highlight that the company said is that the complex was responsible for about 5% of all energy generated in the country in 2021, and that Belo Monte was built to cause as little environmental impact as possible and generate great energy production capacity during the winter in the Amazon. Imagine a revival of this magnitude in your life. You're there, calm, satisfied, playing your routine. And then you have to leave everything behind. Because your house, your garden, your neighbors, your street, your river, everything you built, everything you're used to, now is a obstacle to development. And that's not all. Your work will also have to change, because your income source, your income, now will also need to adapt to the progress. The branch that I knew how to do it. You even try to keep some normality, try to keep doing what you know how to do. But to be able to live now, in these new conditions, you will need to count on the charity of those who forced you to make this change. But it's for a noble reason, to produce energy. Our region sacrificed to build a dam because this energy is the most expensive in the region. How much is the electricity bill? The electricity bill is R$ 500, R$ 600, the electricity bill is R$ 800, R$ 200, R$ 300. I don't have anything in my house. In my house, I pay R$ 60, R$ 70, R$ 80, R$ 100, but I don't have anything. If you get to my house, I have one fridge and nothing else. Even the way you eat needs to change. I never eat, thank God. But I don't tell the lady, I don't have the food I ate. I eat what I have. Many times when I lived in my house, I wanted to eat a chicken, I wanted to eat a duck, I wanted to drink a litre of Açaí, I had a balance, I had the time I needed. I had a life, today I have a suffering. Today I'm living in the company's force, with R$ 9, I have to turn 30 to live for myself. And I have to spend R$ 30 a day, just to spend R$ 30, to pay for energy, I have a very serious health problem. And the lady came here... Wow, it's a lot of medicine. Look, I'm going to put it here, just to save money. My health is connected. Your Raimundo showed me a box with all the medicines he needs to take to control high blood pressure, diabetes and other diseases that he didn't even know how to explain. All of this is part of the new life's package. It's a suffering forever. It's a pain that will last for the rest of our lives. We will never have our own life again. We will have his appearance, in everything, the beaches, the islands, the rocks, the waterfalls that we had, today we have a dead river. What is progress? What is development? Development doesn't exist. I don't know if it's because my language is different, because I never studied and I don't know what development is. But for me, development is what makes good for someone. It brings some benefits, right? Can you justify all this mess because of the energy generation? But what if this mess didn't even serve for that? When I was there in September 2021, Belo Monte was operating only with 3% of the capacity. It was a dry period, okay? But since November 2019, when all the generating units began to operate, only once in February 2021, the plant reached its maximum capacity of energy generation. Among the most dry months, mainly from July to November, the generation is almost dull. After talking to Raimundo Berro-Groço, I had one last stop in Altamira, the Sede do Movimento Xingu Vivo. Because the Xingu River is a seasonal river, which is very low, which is 6 months from summer to 6 months from winter. This is Antónia Mello, coordinator of the Xingu River movement. Antônia's family moved from Piauí to the Amazon border in 1953, when she was only 4 years old. For her, the Xingu River is home. I'm from Xinguara. In these almost 70 years of Xingu, Antônia witnessed several discussions about the progress of the region. She followed closely the studies that approved what she and everyone in the region already knew where to observe the river, that the seasonal flow was so big that a wire work of water would be, in fact, a shot in the water. Because it was impossible with a small reservoir, to store enough water to make the Xingu River work in the dry months. And this, even before putting the effects of the climate crisis in the equation. 6 months from summer, it was the same strength of the river. It lowered a lot. And researchers said that there would be months that could not generate even the minimum. Not even the clock, nothing. Almost all places have to go to the stone due to the drought of the river. It's very dry. Well, we know that these researchers were not heard. And Antônia followed closely, the metamorphosis of the region. And she has already done this for a long time. So the history of the struggle of the social movements of the region, of Altamira, the trans-Amazons, Xingu, is a story that started in the 1970s, with the construction of the trans-Amazons. You see similarities, Antônia, between what was the construction of the trans-Amazons, with, for example, what happened with Belo Monte, you? A lot, a lot, a lot. In fact, the idea of ​​using the Xingu river to generate energy arose almost at the same time as the trans-Amazons, during the military regime. When the dream of "Great Brazil" was enveloped by infrastructure works with large hydropower systems. The initial project was huge. The military wanted to build the complex of Altamira hydropower, which provided two buildings, Babacuara and Cararaú, with the rent of several indigenous lands. It was this Cararaú that ended up being modified almost 40 years later, with the name of Belo Monte. For the original study concluded in 1989, already in the Sarney government, only Cararaú would not give more than 1,200 km², like the city of Rio de Janeiro. The project only went forward precisely because of the resistance of the indigenous peoples of Xingu and the social movements of the region of Altamira. And then the indigenous people marked a large Altamira contract, in February 1989. It was the first meeting of the indigenous nations of Xingu, an event that entered the history of the indigenous movement and that was eternalized by a photo. The government gave it to its representative, who was Antônio Lopes Munich, who was from Eletrobras, from Eletronorte. And we also made a great movement supporting these indigenous peoples against Cararaú, complex Cararaú. Indiatuíra, in that heroic gesture that passed the torch on the face of the representative of the government. There, on the hot weather site, you find this photo of the indigenous leader Tuíra Kayapó, encroaching a half-meter torch on the bushel of the then director of Eletronorte, José Antônio Munich Lopes. And is it curious what Cararaú, the name chosen for the ozina, would say something like "war cry" in the Kayapó language. In fact, the cry was so much, the indigenous movement was able to mobilize so much public opinion, even international, that the plans ended up suspended. So the indigenous peoples announced at the World Bank that they were going to invest, suspended these resources. Despite all this pressure, the masters of the magical energy sector did not give up on the project, but gave a good review of it. Now, they were already called Belo Monte. And the lagging area, which in the original plan would be more than 1,200 km2, fell to about 500 km2 that Goldenberg was talking about. In addition, they guaranteed that no indigenous land would be lagged. But these promises were not enough to overcome resistance. The population knew that the river barrier, even smaller, would displace communities of riverbeds and would affect the fishing and other uses of the river. This is what we saw with Raimundo Berrogrosso. To complete, the public ministry found regularities in the process and embarked on the project. In 2001 there was that story of Pagão. The Pagão of 2001. If you've heard it for more than 30 years, you probably know what Antônia is talking about. If you have the good habit of not leaving the lights on without any need at home, you probably learned that at that time. Maybe you remember the threat of the Black Outs and the rush to exchange the lights and the electrical appliances for more economic versions. This acute crisis happened after a drastic fall in the South-West region. The collapse risk in the energy system was real and the government, Fernando Henrique, who sent a large part of the country, reduced the consumption by 20%. This measure began in June 2001 and was worth 9 months. Everyone had to save. The public administration, industry, trade, residences, street lighting was reduced, shows and soccer games were forbidden from happening at night. Only the essential services had the authorization to continue normally. I'm going back to talk about the 2001 crisis, but for now, what matters is understanding the context we were in. The second mandate of Fernando Henrique was at the end of the line. Or should I say it was not to turn off the lights? It was bad not to resist. 2002 was the year of the election, and Lula was elected for the first time. In 2003, with the election of Lula, we imagined that we would really have respect for the people, listen to them, all the social movements in the region were the basis of the PT of the Workers' Party. And then we divided. Antônio Atetubio, but included himself in this group. She was also the basis of the PT in Altamira. I left the PT, a lot of people left the PT. The trade was a project of the federal government and Lula. We divided here, they were the ones, those movements that were shut down, but supporting. Supporting Belo Monte or supporting Belo Monte? Supporting Belo Monte, supporting the government. And those who revolted, decided not to continue with the same position. Who followed this process closely, thinks that the influence of the PT in this story ended up being crucial for the project to come true. The journalist Eliane Brun, who lives in Altamira since 2017 and follows the story of Belo Monte since 2011, says that only the PT could make Belo Monte exactly because no one believed that the PT would make Belo Monte. She explains how this conclusion came in the book "Brazil, Constructor of Ruins". Eliane says that most of the leadership of the Amazon was also the founder of the PT in the region of Altamira. Precisely the same leadership that for years had fought against the military. And that many of them were kind of without ground when they discovered that the project of Belo Monte was at the table of the then Minister of Minas and Energy, Dilma Rousseff. Lula herself, before being president, had come to say that she was against Belo Monte. But when she was already in the presidency, the discourse changed. Who remembers this well, is Don Erwin Krautler. The bishop of Xingu, who has already appeared here in episode 4. How do you think there was this turning point of being something that the PT was critical of and suddenly they embraced as... Yes, I call it of, how should I say it, of change, of chameleon. Chameleon adapts nature, leaves, right? Do you think he adapted to the context of pressure, lobby? Pressure? I don't know. I don't know about pressure. I was very opposed to that. And once he came here and also defended. He had to leave and exactly it was to save Brazil, the economy of Brazil, save Brazil from the shutdown and all that. The discourse was this. Don Erwin told that he met twice with Lula and charged the president for it. The religious said he heard that it was for him to stay calm, that if Belo Monte was not viable, the government would not push the Zina Guela under anyone. As we already know, it was not what happened and all this story ended up dragging into local leadership among those who broke with the government and those who continued with it. And among those who continued, there were those who believed that the PT could conduct the project in a fair way and those who were convinced by other arguments. It's also another misfortune. For me it is a misfortune, an aggression more ugly, more worthy to corrupt people who are not yet understanding the reach of a program, of a project. So it cooperates financially. Belo Monte is our balcony. I've heard this story of many people in Altamira. Including Don Erwin and Antonia Mello. The resistance was weakened because the party co-opted part of the movement in exchange for charges or public documents. Scalaries with projects, with money, motorcycles, campers... You can notice by Antonia's voice that she was not in this competition. And she and Don Erwin went to Brasilia to try to convince Dilma to give up on the project. Dilma, the deputy of Zé Geraldo, the leaders of the region, the PT, the deputy of Zé Geraldo, invited a group to go to Brasilia to talk with the Minister of Energy Minas about Belo Monte. We were six. We sat in a big table at the ministry. It took a while to arrive. I used everything to be quiet. Then I took the front. That was the Minister. He could leave. She didn't even let me finish talking. She took a burro at the table and said, "Belo Monte will leave." Then there was no more conversation. She left. She got up and left. It was the letter marked with the companies. There is no energy. Belo Monte was the letter marked with the companies. It was not for energy. I remembered an expression that she would generate more propin than energy. In fact, we tried to hear from Marussefe about this podcast, but she didn't answer our interview request. And this story of propin reminded me of those interviews that I took in the luggage when I boarded for Amazônia. It's about an imbecility, building a lake here in the water. Here again, Deufin Neto, the ex-minister, appeared here on episode 4, talking about one of the great pharaonic works of the government that had his finger on it, the trans-Amazônica route. And now he came back to talk about this other great pharaonic work that he helped defend at that same time, in the 70s and 80s, when she didn't go forward, and came back to defend years later already in the Lula government, but then on the other side of the table. During the investigations he was quoted by some delators. They said that Deufin would have received a propin of R$15 million to help structure the company that won the contract. Deufin is in the scene for so long in the national politics that it is difficult to point out an unprecedented event in his biography. I mean, it wasn't the first time that his name was pointed out in a case of corruption in the construction of the hydropower. In the 70s, in the construction of the Tucurui plant, also in Pará. In the case of Lava Jato, Deufin came to become a real nation. I asked that to him. You can only explain to me why you ended up becoming real in Lava Jato's investigations, just accused of receiving a propin of Odebrecht to make Belo Monte. Do you understand this? I don't want to say anything. He's an idiot. He's a mental devil. He's a debiloy. And the humor is the same as him. I received R$ 200,000 as a consultant of Odebrecht and I paid the income tax, registered. Or someone thinks that I can't receive R$ 200,000 as a consultant. Just as he did. Until June 2022, when I was recording this episode, the case hadn't been judged yet. What do you mean? If Deufin thinks that making Belo Monte was an idiot? Why did he take part in the project? You still think it should have been done? I think it's justifiable. It was poorly done. Belo Monte would have been an asset if it had been reserved. But the fact that there wasn't a reservation made sense to make Belo Monte? No. There's no way to make a point in making Belo Monte. Why did you help the teacher that it was made the same way? I didn't help at all. I tried to help in the hope that the project had a reservation. So, but then there was no way. When it went to Leilão, when it went to create the consorts to build, I already knew it wasn't there. I already knew it wasn't going to be reserved. The license had already been made without. But then it was a consumable fact. Do you think that in the end you invested in a project that had as much visibility as, for example, the story of the Trans-Amazônica? Don't you repeat these visibility of the projects? Yes, I think that in a large extent it was something similar. Without the reservation it would never be what it should be. So maybe it shouldn't have been done? No. The best is not to spend money. The best is not to spend money. Yes, but a lot of money was spent on it. Delo Monte made a sum of R$ 30 billion in the Brazilian pocket. A sum of this size to generate almost no energy in the good part of the year and still cause a gigantic environmental impact. There is no way to move in nature without producing environmental impact. If I want to generate energy I will produce an environmental impact. If you don't want any environmental impact continue India, go to Porrinha. I was there filming a fruit tree that gives a fruit called Sauron. This is Anitta Juruna. She lives in the Muratú village which is just over 50 km from Altamira. As soon as I arrived in the village I found Anitta on her phone filming some trees. Ok, if you are the type who goes on Twitter to criticize India with smartphones, go there and buy your ticket for your backpack in Europe and then we will talk, ok? But back to Anitta. Sauron is a fruit that serves as food for the fish. Sauron, which can also be called Kamukamu, is a redond and reddish fruit that reminds a little of acerola, but more of an acerola. The fish love it. Sauron's feet are born in the rivers. And the watermelon's cycles follow the phases of drought and drought. She knows her time. When she is in the drought the watermelon preserves the drought. The fruits mature and fall from the foot at the time of the drought. That is, the fruits fall inside the river. And then she serves food for the Baku, which is a very tasty, very nutritious fish and which is one of the main food of the Sauron. Anyway, it is a perfect cycle. Or was it? There are several sauron's feet that are dying there because of the drought. Like this water that is so far from the Sauron's feet. Because the drought was darker. Because when the time comes for the water to be there on her feet it is not coming anymore. Then every year the water is getting farther away from them and they are dying. Because it is getting weak both the plant and the fruit that is given to it. Then it will give the fruit, but it will not be useful because it will fall in the drought like several other plants that give food to the fish. There is no fruit for Baku and Baku gets thin. It was for this that Anita was filming the sauron. Then I went to film there to show that they are dying. I will start to record all this. I will post it on social media so people can see how it is. Audeia Muratú is part of the indigenous land of Paxamba that is located on the Volta Grande of the Xingu River. Which, as the name suggests, is a well accentuated curve in the river. I found a trail of more than 100 km of distance and which almost dried up after the Belomonte river began to work in 2016. You are 20 years old, right? So your childhood was to see your parents fighting against Belomonte, right? My father and Anita are the Joruna gillians. And he was an important figure in the resistance to the construction of Belomonte. When the pressure of the indigenous movement of environmentalists and social movements was not enough for the Joruna gillians to work, and decided to build the river. In a small part of the Volta Grande was built a first dam on the Xingu River that lagged over 350 km2. The Joruna began to control the flow of the river, which greatly reduced the damage of the next section, where Audeia Muratú is located. People don't believe what we are talking about. We used to not see such a big drought as we are seeing now, after Belomonte. We saw this river all the time. We can't navigate. In 2002, at the time, it was Eletronorte, they always said that there was no impact that much, right? It was even a condition at the time of access to the lake, the expansion of our area. And that didn't happen until today we were fighting injustice. Now, with the Zina installed, the Joruna gillians redirected to the impact of the Zina. And to make the contraparties that are Eletronorte and the Norte Energy Consortium, stop signing the signing of the contract. Cassique Giliard told me that in addition to the damage on the food of the pacul, which is more lean, the drought on the big lap is also affecting the reproduction of the fish. Including ornamental species that the Joruna sold to guarantee a income. What does the Norte Energy Consortium do? The Norte Energy Consortium does monitoring of the company, right? And we started doing this independent monitoring to, in the future, hit in front of them to prove that they are really having a talk. What the Norte Energy Consortium thinks, right? That the water has to reach this level, which is the time of the fish to dissolve. But the water has to reach the level, but it has to wait a while, right? To wait for the fish to enter, to dissolve, the fish to be born to be able to leave. Sometimes when they jump into the water, one day, the water is full, the other day it is already down, the fish ends up dying to dissolve. I don't know, I think it is a very inexplicable thing, this situation of the Joruna with the river, no. This is Abel Joruna, Irmando Cacique Girarde and Tia Danita. It is a very big connection. It was the whole day, the whole day. Fishing, playing and going out, it was like that. Abel told me how life has changed since the arrival of D'Alzina. Our food source has also been affected, the income source has been affected directly. We are having a lot of impact, having to feed ourselves with the product of the city. Our navigation also finds a lot of difficulty. Can't you leave the boat? We can't, right? When this Norte Energy team is there, we find a lot of difficulty and the river is very dry. She always accompanied Jilarde in the meetings with energy companies before the construction of Belo Monte. Reunions and meetings. We would spend months of meetings to discuss the situation of Valtagrana. And there was a demand that they always had in the negotiations. Well, the energy that is generating from Belo Monte is from our water. Our water that is there, generating those turbines. The minimum that we could have was never received. The day I was with the staff late at home, I was paid between 300 and a little. But, to me, it is no longer my name. I am doing this great effort to be able to pay to not have a dirty name, because it is very bad. And there is a lot of energy left, the indigenous people who do the maintenance, you know? They take it, they break it, they go there in fear, they just come to buy it. In January 2021, Obama came to determine that the north energy would increase the range of the Xingu River, precisely because he had verified an increase in the impact in this range reduced to the river, in the Valtagrana. And an increase in the range means less water, less energy generation. I hope it doesn't generate anything, mom. I turn on the TV, and I have already imagined the water coming back in my house. My God. The energy crisis of 2001 also had a hydric crisis in the origin, in the same way that happened now in 2021. But it wasn't just that. The crisis of two decades ago also served to enhance the fact that the Brazilian energy system had flaws. Well, you can't say that we didn't learn anything with the 2001 lesson. For example, one of the problems at that time was that the transmission system wasn't as interconnected as it is today. For you to have an idea, the south region didn't even need to enter the 20% energy cut scheme that the Fernando Henrique ordered because it was raining normally there. But it wasn't possible to take the energy from there to other regions of the country that were being affected. In those two decades, this system was improved. More transmission lines were built, to the point of Belo Monte, for example, when it's generating sending energy to São Paulo, to Rio de Janeiro. But another important flaw of our energy system that was scanned in 2001 was the fact that Brazil was totally dependent on hydropower. Remember that Goldenberg said at that time they provided more than 80% of Brazilian electricity. We had very little diversity from other sources. And this scenario has also changed. Today, hydropower provides 60% of all the electricity consumed in Brazil. That means there was some investment in diversification. People understood that they couldn't bet all the fees on a single source of energy, even more on a source that depends on the rain. But the problem is to think about what kind of energy we're going to invest to continue diversifying. We saw in the first episode of "Tempo Quente" that the stability of the hydropower ended up being an excuse for carbon, remember? And carbon wasn't the only fossil source that benefited from this river. Natural gas too. And we won't forget what this means, right? Leaving the electric matrix more dirty. But I'm going to talk about this better in the next episode. Because even with everything we saw in this episode about electric hydropower, we didn't even turn this page. In the river of the Hydro-Crisis of 2021, the Bolsonaro government returned to the construction of hydropower farms along the Pará River, that could flood the indigenous lands of Munduruku. This idea had already been suspended in 2016 in Lebanon, precisely because of this risk, but now new viability studies were commissioned. Bolsonaro, by the way, also removed his beautiful helmet. The work began in 2011 and had a first inauguration in 2016, by the hands of Dilma in the US. In 2019, when he entered the operation on the 18th and last turbine of the hydropower, Bolsonaro went there to do a second inauguration. The journalist Liane Brun, who wrote that only the PT could make Belo Monte, well observed that the hydropower was a work that united the political poles. Dilma, during the first inauguration, said that the best word to describe the hydropower was "great". Bolsonaro didn't say anything, but the then Minister of Minas and Energy, the Admiral Bento Albuquerque, who was by his side, called it the "magnificent work". The historical relationship between the country and the hydropower is like a classic "if you run, the animal takes, if you stay, the animal eats", right? Now, do we really need to be like that? When I talked to Beljuruna, who was tired and low on the side of the Xingu River, she remembered the obvious. It's possible to generate energy with less impact. Generate energy with less impact. Hydroelectricity is not the only source of clean energy. The Brazilian fixation with the hydropower with big reservoirs ended up barriering the growth of other clean sources, to which Brazil also has vocation. A country with almost 100% of the territory in the tropical zone has a lot of solar energy capture potential. This without talking about energy and all the excellent enclosures and planets. And solar and wind are also free, right? When Belo Monte was built, these mattresses already had wind in popa, sorry, tricadilho, in many parts of the world. I remember the size of the rebellion between the environmentalists with the Dilma. In a preparation event for Rio +20 in 2012, there was the following delay. I think we have a mission to propose a new growth paradigm that does not seem absurdly ethereal or fantastic. Because nobody also accepts. Excuse me. Discuss the fantasy. I have to explain to people how they will have access to energy. Right? I can't say, look, it's possible only with the wind illuminating the planet. It's not. Only with solar, in some way. That's why there is a scientific basis in our discussion. I am a little constrained to think that in 2012 the president of one of the largest economies in the world was calling solar and wind energy without scientific basis. But I feel real ashamed to think that 10 years later there is still someone who thinks so. In the last 10 years the generation technologies of these two types of energy have advanced a lot also. One thing that caught my attention when I circulated for Altamira is that the city is full of solar energy by houses and by shops. And there is a lot of solar energy propaganda. There is outdoor painting on the sidewalks in front of the river, on the wall of the supermarket. And then we are charging the possibility of becoming a public policy, solar energy. Here again, Antônio Amelo of the Shingo Vivo movement. I put solar energy in my house this year. It caught my attention here in the city where I saw a lot of propaganda. Yes, there are a lot of people putting it. And it's curious, isn't it? It's a place where there is hydroelectricity. For me it was always a dream. There is a rage. Since I know that Barrage is a disgrace there is a rage of this conventional energy. In the next episode of "Tempo Quente" we are going to see how Brazil is in the middle of this nuclear crisis stuck in a crossroads between fossil fuels and renewables. "Tempo Quente" is an original podcast from Rádio Novelo, produced with the support of the Instituto Climes Sociedades and Samambaia Filantropias. I, Giovana Gerardi, present, make the report and sign the script with Paula Escarpinho with the support of Barbara Rubira and Flora Thompson Devou. I am the director of the project of Ana Magalhães and Barbara Rubira who also produced with Marcelle Darriê. We had the consultancy of Cristina Morim and Claudio Ângelo. The creative direction is of Paula Escarpinho and of Branca Viana. And the executive direction is of Guilherme Elpendre. The original music was composed by Artur Cuns. The edition is of Luca Mendes and the sound is of Paula Escarpinho and of Julia Matos. The local direction is of Mica Linz. We recorded in the concert hall the sounds and churros in São Paulo. Our translators were Laura Reustabe and Bel Barone. The check-in is of Emerson Kimura. The mix was made by Pipoca Sound. The promotion and distribution strategy is due to Juliana Yeager and Fecris Vasconcellos. The social networks are of Bia Ribeiro and Eduard Volf with designer Mateus Coutinho. The edition of our video content is of Taís Fernandes. The visual team was made by Natacha Gompers and our website was made by Paula Carvalho and Amanda Jedra. In this episode, we use the audio of TV Brasil. In the promotion of this episode we heard a lot more people than appeared here. So I would like to thank Josefa de Oliveira da Silva, Maria de Fátima Dias de Souza, Maria Lena de Araújo Silva, Marcelo Salazar, Maurício Tomasquim, Ricardo Baitelo, Roberto Chefer, Sergio Leitão, Sueli Araújo and Verena Glaz. Thank you and see you next week.