No Dogs in Space: New York Dolls Pt I

(upbeat music) - Part of me thinks like we could just-- - Fuck it, you know what? Part of me thinks we could just start too, and just be like, God damn it, hey, we're back. - Yeah, why don't we talk about being back? 'Cause this is our first episode back. - Yes, it is. - Okay, so why don't we talk about being back? Because this is our first episode back? - Yeah, let's do that. Let's talk about this being our first episode back, our first episode in years, something like that. - Yes, so much has happened. - Has it? - Yeah, well, I mean, not to us. I mean, like other people, I'm sure the world, current events, but yes, and we are back, and we are doing, of course, what we always want to do, which is punk. - Punk 2.0, ladies and gentlemen. We're fucking here, my name is Marcus Parks, this is no dogs in space. We are here for punk 2.0. We're starting it off with a band that people have asked us to do, oh, so many times. We've told the story, bits and pieces here and there, but we're finally gonna tell it in a massive four-part series starting today. - That's right, I'm Carolina Hidalgo, some call me Carolina, danger Hidalgo, certain doctor's offices know me as that, and I am also here with you today to talk about this. We are telling the story in four parts, and that is it, that is all I'm contractually obligated to do or that I want to do. - There's a possibility we might have a point five here. - We might. - Possibility, it might be a replacement type of situation because this story, the more I look into it, this story just crosses with so many other amazing movements in New York City that were happening in the early '70s, there is so much meat to this story. There's a lot of meat on this bone, so let's start chewing. - I was about to say, let's do it now, let's go now. - Yeah. - Now one can make the argument that this band was the greatest rock and roll group to ever exist. Not the best, definitely not the most talented, but the greatest. - Yes. - They were a band who distilled the music and the attitude down to it's very essence, during not only their performances and their records, but also in the way they lived every hour of their lives for better or worse. Created by five kids from each of the outer boroughs that's Brooklyn, Queen, Staten Island and the Bronx, all four are represented. This band rode the wave of chaos created by the decay of early '70s Manhattan. They absorbed and translated the city's dirt, sleaze, crime, trash and utter insanity, as well as its art and culture into pure rock and roll. This band's body of work was a collage, born of intuition and good taste, which combined the sonic screams of first generation rock and roll guitarist like Bo Dudley and Eddie Cochran with the confidence and attitude of the 1960s girl pop groups. - I love how you put that together. That's what this band is. And finally, they just sprinkled the whole mixture with a dash of British glam. - Oh, yes, definitely. - But even though their taste was impeccable, their actual talent was not on the same level. They were the archetype of the punk band that didn't give a fuck about precision. Hell, half the time their instruments weren't even in tune. You kids don't know how lucky you are with these electric guitar tuners, but that wasn't even close to the point. For this group, it was their energy and passion that inspired countless others in first New York City and then the world to think if these assholes can do it, what the fuck am I waiting for? - That's right. If those assholes could do it, anybody could do it. - Yeah, these five New Yorkers had actually tapped into a vitality that they themselves couldn't keep up with. And as such, it's been said by the old New York cincers that this group peaked before they even signed a record contract. - Oh my God, that is so hipster. That is so New York, yeah, no. - I loved them before they started a band. - You should have seen them in elementary school. They were awesome. - Yeah, they were cool then. - Well amongst that scene though, this band started a revolution without even trying. It was expression as infection. It was DIY at its most fabulous, because if you know nothing about this band, their fashion sense was sickening. Fierce, dusted, New York was gagged, mama. - Yes, I loved it, I loved it all. - Yeah, and we're gonna be getting deep into the drag scene in New York City starting next week. But these five men dressed as women or at least dressed highly fam. - I would say highly fam. - Highly fam, they did that because it was their instinct to do so. And by doing that, they personified the idea that in New York City, you can be whatever the fuck you want. And if you hit the same sweet spot these boys hit, you can have more fun than you ever thought possible. Now while the band was indeed straight, they dressed, acted, and presented themselves to the world in a way that was far more drag than glam, at least in our opinion. But that's not to say that a feminine edge or drag elements were new and rock and roll. People forget that some of the earliest rock stars were extremely flamboyant. That's a good reason why in an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race, the drag queen Kennedy Davenport was able to surprise everyone by doing an excellent and filthy drag interpretation of the famously filthy little Richard. - I loved it so much. I can't even do it just this. - It's one of the best stash game performances ever. But where the British glam boys at the time were Foppish Poppin' J's. This bed. - Excuse me, Frasier. What? I'm sorry, Niles, look. Foppish Poppin' J's. - Yeah, I would describe the British glam. - Bowie's father? (laughs) - Well, if he's Foppish Poppin' J's or something, he's too far from I think. - He's Brixton. - Well, while the British boys were, I stand by it Foppish Poppin' J's. This band is one author put it. They took the glam out of glam rock and they made it seedyer and far more threatening. To me, that means they made it more American. And I think this band really does represent what America's supposed to be in more ways than one. For example, two of the founding members of this band were first-generation immigrants from Egypt and Colombia. And in my opinion, one of the things that makes America special is natural-born shitheads collaborating with wild, imaginative immigrants to create something revolutionary. - Definitely, I mean, look at us. (laughs) Look at us, shithead, and imaginative. (laughs) - Okay, yeah, I guess I did kind of walk in and be called a shithead there, yeah. But as it often goes here in America, the people who represent its purest ideals with the most intensity are the same people who get pushback from the cowards who are definitely afraid of what freedom actually means. And this band was certainly a victim of this paradox. So while we look at the cover of this band's groundbreaking debut album with a whole band is dressed in maximum drag and think, "But yeah, I want to hear that record." These musicians could have been arrested for female impersonation in 1973 if that photo shoot had been done in the wrong state. And furthermore, the music contained in this record was certainly rock and roll, but it was also campy, and it was also feminine. All this put together coded this band's debut as gay to a lot of radio DJs who were also probably a little freaked out by their own sexual reaction to the luscious lips of lead singer David Johansson. - That's right, in our own generation, we had a similar thing, not dressed in drag, but a lot of people thought the members of Hanson were girls. (laughing) And there was a bit of confusion there as well. - That there was, but it did nothing to stop and Bob from being played every 10 minutes on the radio. We came a long way. - We have come a long way. Bob, really. (laughing) - And sometimes it does feel like we're a million miles away from that sort of bullshit. Radio DJs freaking out over guys wearing makeup and dresses in a photo shoot is a far cry from where we are today. We're the most popular show on MTV by far is an actual drag competition that's in what season 17? - At least, and it's all over the world, too. UK, Australia, I mean, we've seen them all. - Yeah, yeah, we had all the 11 seasons of All Stars, tedious, it's gotten very tedious, but it's massive, it's huge. But as we all know, there are plenty of assholes today who want to bring the days of old back. These are people who either don't know the meaning of the kind of reckless abandon our band today represented or they understand its power completely and it scares them to their cowardly core. See, as one member of this band put it, every generation finds something intriguing about this band. And I think that's certainly true. So maybe in order to move into the future, we need to look into the past. And I think that every single one of us can find something inspiring about the total freedom, the aggressive rebellion, and the utter chaos that was the New York Dolls. - Yes! (upbeat rock music) ♪ Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no ♪ ♪ ♪ Well, we can't take it this way ♪ ♪ In her friends are one another's friend ♪ ♪ Hoping for a better day ♪ ♪ That he watches Dr. Stain ♪ ♪ I'm about that personality crisis ♪ ♪ You've got a while, it wasn't hot ♪ ♪ But now, for a speech in a heartache ♪ ♪ It's what you've loved ♪ ♪ So let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go ♪ - You could hear all the chaos and the fun. - Yeah, so much fucking fun. That's what this man was all about. So much fun, produced by Todd Rungren. Like, it's fucking such a good album. - I know, Todd was part of the fun. - Yeah, we forced to talk about Todd Rungren again. Against our will. - I don't, I think he's fine. I have no problem with him. Well, let me read more about him. - Yeah. - Let's, but first let's get started on our sources, right? Our main book sources are first of all too much too soon. The makeup breakup of The New York Dolls by Nina Antonia, as well as there's no bones in ice cream, Sylvain Sylvain's story of The New York Dolls by Sylvain Sylvain with Dave Thompson. - Guess there's no bones in ice cream is one of the best rock bios that I've read in years. - Love it. - This is so good. - And also, we also use Johnny Thunders in Cold Blood, the official biography by Nina Antonia again. And then there was Drash, The Complete New York Dolls by Chris Needs and Dick Porter. We used that for extra details. All of these books have different accounts of what's basically the same kind of story. And I have to say, I've worked really hard to done my best to read all of these books. And check out plenty of interviews and articles online and make some hard and some not so hard editorial decisions on who's telling the truth. So we're gonna do the best we can here. And I will give the complete list of sources at the end of this series as well, so we're gonna post it on our Instagram, No Dogs Pop. - Yeah, I would say not since the studious have we had to make so many judgments what is true and what is probably true. - Totally. - And what might be true. - We spent a whole afternoon talking about if Johnny Thunders lied, about one thing. That's an afternoon. You're wondering how wide it took us so long to get here. Okay. - What's the thing that Iggy Pop and Johnny Thunders shared that makes the truth so difficult? We'll find out. - It's heroin, market. (laughing) Okay, so let's get started with the story of The New York Dolls from New York. And actually we're gonna start with Sylvain Sylvain, the guitarist and co-founder of The New York Dolls, who actually isn't originally from New York. Sylvain was born Sylvain Mizrahi on Valentine's Day, 1951 in Cairo, Egypt. Yeah, he's Egyptian by birth, but his mother was of Syrian descent and his father's family were from Turkey, but they all spoke French. I'm not sure why, but according to Sylvain, that was the primary language for many Jewish, Middle, Eastern people at that time. And Sylvain, he spent his childhood in Cairo in a very upper class. I would say downright wealthy family, like nice penthouse apartment with a car and chauffeur, the works, everything. But Sylvain wasn't like, he wasn't a fancy kid. He wasn't a richy rich. All he cared about at that time as a young boy was going to the movies and watching Western American singing cowboy movies. We couldn't get him away from that. Like movies starring Roy Rogers, which apparently he was an actual singing cowboy for real. Yeah, we drive through the Roy Rogers Memorial interchange every day between the office and home. I forget that I hold my breath and pray a minute every time we do that. So anyway, Sylvain, he loved watching the singing cowboy sit on their horses while playing their guitar and I guess fixing fences. Yeah. And that's all cowboy news, trust me. I've never seen a singing cowboy movie. Well, actually, no, the three amigos. Yes. I mean, that's more Mexican American Canadian singing cowboy movie. But you know, she'll be coming around the mountain when she comes. That's right. Okay, well, that's a singing bush movie. But still, okay, back to Sylvain, back to Sylvain. Pretty soon after a few cowboy movies, Sylvain is like, at this point he's dying for a guitar, right? He's a little kid. He wants to play like his hero, Roy Rogers. And after lots of begging and insisting and being really annoying about it, Sylvain's father finally gets him an ood. An ood. Yes, not a guitar. I'll get an ood. And Sylvain's dad is like a wealthy banker. It's not like he couldn't afford it. But hey, in Egypt, you get an ood. Yeah, yeah. You want a thing with strings that makes noise. You get an ood. Yes, it's an Arabic type of guitar. It's totally not a guitar. But it's what Sylvain has got to work with, basically. Which is cool. But then, unfortunately, in 1956, Sylvain singing cowboy dreams kind of washed away when an international conflict changed the course of five-year-old Sylvain's life forever. And that conflict was the Suez Canal crisis. Yeah, it affected a lot of people. So many singing cowboy dreams were swept away by the Suez Canal crisis. That's why there's a singing cowboy shortage to this day. The Suez Canal crisis, it's extremely complicated. But basically, the Egyptian dictator, Gamal Abdel Nasser, nationalized the Suez Canal in 1956, which took ownership of the canal away from French and British interests. The French and British therefore planned military action to retake the canal and possibly deposed Nasser in the process. This is what Israel got involved in the operation. Because Nasser had been behind anti-Israeli blockades and raids. And Israel had every reason to want Nasser deposed. So Israel led the attack against Egypt in 1956. But when the operation got bogged down, the coalition withdrew from Egypt after just a few months. And with the coalitions withdraw, Nasser could claim victory against the colonial powers. That's true. He won a political war. Like they loved him for it. Massive, massive, massive political win for him. And this led to a massive increase in both Egyptian nationalism. And because Israel was involved, anti-Semitism all across Egypt. And since Sil's dad was working in a bank that used the British pound, this is how granular it all got. Neither of these things were good news for the Mizrahi family's future in Egypt. Yeah, Silvein's dad lost his job when the bank he was working at for 25 years was nationalized. So Silvein's family, as well as other Jewish families and communities, they couldn't go out shopping or walking down the streets without being harassed or being called nasty names. Like you said, Marcus, like nationalism was taking over. It felt that dangerous to not be born and bred Egyptian at that time or not be Jewish for that matter. And Silvein and his family were Jewish. I mean, his grandfather was a rabbi. Yeah. That's that's pretty Jewish. This is Jewish as you get. Absolutely. So soon the money was running out. So Silvein's parents, you know, they were very smart about this. They started making clothes in their living room to make ends meet. And these people were rich, at least until very recently. They were rich. But they were also very hard working. So Silvein's parents took out some books on sewing and started making shirts and pants on their diving room table. Their fancy rooms and their fancy apartment became like a work room to make and sell clothes to just get by. Money was scarce, but then when food started becoming scarce, Silvein's family decided it was time to leave Egypt for good. So after months of writing letters to every foreign embassy they could think of, they finally got one response from France. Yeah, because they could speak French. Yeah, that's, well, that actually did help. Yes. And by Silvein's eighth birthday, he and his family had settled in a small apartment on, I'm sorry about this, rue Cadet in Paris. rue Cadet. Yeah, exactly. It spells Cadet, but it's rue Cadet. So within, like, what, a little over a year, they went from living in a penthouse luxury apartment in Cairo to a single room hotel with nothing but a bucket to wash in. The toilet was down the hall. Jesus. It was one of those. And there were four of them. Yeah. And then they had a baby. There were five of them at some point. Jesus. Yes. Three kids, two adults. And this is all definitely germane to the New York Doll story. Absolutely. Because Silvein's in his autobiography, he does say he remembers rue Cadet as a crowded smelly, rat-infested, grossest street. But there was the Foley Berger, right? Foley Berger. Yes. Berger. Foley Berger, that's right. Little Silvein lived right around the corner of Paris's most famous cabaret hall. Well, I think the most, the second most famous because the Mulan Rouge. That's number one. That's number one. Okay. Gotcha. I've seen the movie and we all know this. So anyway, the Foley Berger was a sightseer. Berger. It was. It was a sight to behold. I mean, Silvein never went inside because he was eight, nine years old, right? But he would stand at the door like the side door where the truck would like pull up and unload dozens of costumes, feathers, sequins, and the most beautiful sentence. It was the first time Silvein had ever been exposed to glitz in glamour. This is art. This is expression. This is full of sequins. My god. Very shiny fabrics. Of course, a child would love this. Hell, I would love this. I would too. And this is important because Silvein said that when the New York Dolls were first starting, [BLANK_AUDIO] exactly what Sill was thinking of. The feathers and sequins in the Follie Berger. (laughing) I said so confidently. Sylvain was mesmerized by the shiny fabrics and glitter. I mean, who is it? But he ended up never going to the Follie Berger because by the time he was like 10, 11 years old, Sylvain and his family left Paris for a better opportunity in America. Yes, finally Sylvain and his family touched down in New York City in 1962 and he immediately fell in love with it. Sylvain loved all of it. The feel and smell of the streets, the energy, the gunpowder volatility of it all. It was raw and a bit gross, sure, but New York City had character. And Sylvain even said, "For the first time "since I'd left Cairo, Egypt, "I felt like I belonged somewhere." Because that's what it's supposed to be here. The feeling that wherever you come from, you belong. Yeah. That's New York. That's America. Yeah, not only can you belong, but you can do anything. Absolutely. Anything is possible. Now, when the Sylvain family finally landed in the outer burrows, so quickly discovered the reason why so many members of the future punk scene, who survived the chaos of Manhattan in the '70s, he discovered why those guys were from the outer burrows, why they were from Brooklyn and Queens. See, before his family settled in Queens, Sylv first lived in Brooklyn, where violence and actual fist fights were a normal part of life for both genders. Sylvain said he actually knew a girl who had raised her blades in her beehive to slice up the hands of any girl who tried grabbing a fistful of hair during the scuffle. That's actually kind of smart. It's incredibly smart, but it's also wildly violent. Yeah, that was in the silence of the lambs, the sequel in the beginning of the movie with Julie and Moore. Really? They're like, oh, watch out if you touch her head because it wasn't in the 1960s, though. It was a sequel that was poorly made. Yes, it was, except for the end when the he ate Ray Leotus' brain. That was actually very cool. It's worth a whole movie. I wish that was the whole, yeah, I was about to say that. Oh, I got to be on everything in comment. Yeah. Now Sylvain certainly had to deal with a fair amount of xenophobia and racism in Brooklyn and Queens. Trust me, Queens ate the paradise that everyone thinks it is, but he found refuge in the incredible music that permeated the burrows throughout the early '60s. Sylv partly absorbed this music through the jukebox at the bowling alley across the street from his school. The songs that he heard on that jukebox would make up the musical DNA of not just Sylvain, but every New York doll. And while each of them would discover these songs in their own way, it was the bowling alley where Sylvain loved with the girl groups of the early '60s. It cannot be overstated how important these fantastic groups are to the New York dolls and to punk in general. Now in my opinion, the way that every member of the dolls idolized these girl groups from a young age probably made them a lot more comfortable exploring their feminine sides later on. But even though their later pinchant for women's clothing would make people assume they were gay, the band dressed the way they did mostly because the girls they liked responded to it positively. And their love for girl groups ran on much the same logic. For Sylv, the songs that the girl group sang had a sensual edge that he recognized before he even knew what sex was. This was the music that the girls in the bowling alley liked. And later, Sylv would say that there was no piece of music sexier in this world than the isolated drumbeats that kicks off the Ronets classic debut single. Be my baby. Oh, yes, you landed it perfectly. [MUSIC PLAYING] Oh, where's my hair brush? Maybe a Roni Spectre series sometime in the future. Absolutely. Sometimes, somewhere, somehow. God, I love it. The girl groups, I love. It's one of my favorite genres out there. I love it. No one thing to keep in mind about the New York dolls was that they were a young band. Most were just barely out of their teens when they started. So like the Ramones, the dolls formed their first connections to each other when they were still just kids. Sylv Sovein continued to adapt to Queens as the '60s continued, dodging bullies, falling in love with them near every British invasion band that came along. And every once in a while, buying cough syrup for neighborhood heroin addicts at their request because he didn't know any better. Wow, you really buried the lead with that one. He was doing all these-- you were a man besides all that. Yeah, fall in love with-- listen into the kinks and buying cough syrup for heroin addicts. Hey, kid. But when Sylv reached junior high, he finally found a friend that he could not only vibe with, but this was a kid who was an immigrant, just like Sylv. The relationship did, however, begin in a very 1960s Queens manner. Yeah, Queens, baby. Remember, I'm originally from Queens. I remember. I was born in Queens, unfortunately. Or fortunately, I don't know. I moved from Queens after being born six weeks later. So I wasn't able to be raised in Queens like all these fun people. But this is really fun. Sylvain went to Van Wick Middle School, where he had to deal-- like you said, bullies, people picking on him. Sylvain Mizrahi, though he did manage to make a friend. A best friend. One day, at school, an older kid went up to Sylvain at lunch and said, you're going to fight my brother today or else. Be there. 3 p.m. What? No, it's just-- you're going to fight my brother today or else. Be there. 3 p.m. He's a Colombian immigrant. Why aren't you just doing your natural accent? I am not going to-- OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, you go on to the fight, my brother. No, no, no, I'm 70. OK, no, he's not. OK, OK. Let me just cut the carol in a way. Can we do the carol in a way and say that Carrecy called on me anyway? OK, you're going to fight my brother today. OK, older kid goes to Sylvain. You're going to fight my brother, right? And Sylvain thought, who was that guy? And where is-- be there. Where is there? And why do I have to fight someone? I don't even know. And Sylvain, you know, he was hesitant. He's a teenager. He's like 14 at this time. But he wasn't going to punk out either, you know what I mean? He's at that age. Screen. So at 3 p.m., Sylvain, who by then, found out where there was, which was outside the school, also found out who he was going to fight, which was that kid's younger brother, Billy. So Sylvain actually recognized him immediately. Like, oh, yeah, we have gym class together. We say hi sometimes. And obviously, Sylvain didn't want to fight Billy. And neither did Billy want to fight Sylvain. I think Billy was pushed by his older brother, Alfonso, because I don't know, edification, hazing, toughening him up. It happens. I was thrown to many small fight clubs by my older brothers growing up. They like it. It's funny to them. Wow, they just, they just really enjoyed it. That older kids really love making smaller kids fight each other. I can't explain it. But I'm just saying that I had the exact same experience in rural Texas as these kids had in Queens in 1960 and the 1960s. So let's just go ahead and say it's a universal human thing. OK. I just abused my dolls, like a good sit from Toy Story. All right, so we're all a little different, but that's OK. I did that, too. And even though I used to my action figures. And even though Sylvain didn't want to fight, they were going to fight. There was already a mob of kids around them in the circle chanting fight, fight, fight, fight. So since they didn't want to lose face, Sylvain and Billy just started dancing around a fighting ring. They would kick up dirt and fake punches until I think one of them finally threw a punch and connected. And then they both somehow fell backwards. I'm not sure, but that seems right. Yeah. And once the crowd was satisfied, the boys helped each other up and said, you want to go? I'll walk you home. So they left. And that's how Sylvain met the original drummer of the New York Dolls, Billy Murcia. Yeah, Colombian immigrant. Yes, absolutely. There's not a lot of information on Billy Murcia out there. It's actually kind of hard to find stuff about his life and what he was like and stuff. But I can say with confidence that the few people who have talked about Billy all said that he was friendly, kind, funny, very funny, very energetic, which is good for a drummer. He's a drummer. And most of all, a humble and happy kid. Yep. He had what we call the drummer's personality. Yeah. So Billy Murcia, who is from Bogota, Colombia, and the same age as Sylvain at this time, he moved to America with his family just a year before. They moved to Jamaica, Queens. And that's actually where he and Sylvain would spend countless afternoons jamming together. and more systematic. Billy's. parents were very supportive of all their kids' dreams. Even when Billy said, "Mom, dad, I'm gonna be a drummer." And they said, "Great." - It's a hard thing for parents to say it too. - Yeah, I know, they're like, "Feel free to practice. It'll be loud." (laughing) - That was really kind of them. - It was. - But then again, Billy also didn't have a drum kit back then, like he just had one snare drum and Sylvain had a simple acoustic guitar that Sylvain's family, his dad finally got him a real guitar. - No more wood. - Exactly. Yeah, the wood probably, he probably just chucked it off the passenger boat they were on on their way to parents or something. (laughing) Oh, there it goes, there it goes. But that guitar, actually, it lasted as long as the wood, I think, because before long Sylvain got his hands on an electric guitar and a five watt amp with a 12 inch speaker, which meant Sylvain and Billy became too loud for Billy's parents' household, so they moved there what they call headquarters to the basement parking garage of Sylvain's apartment building. They could play their all day with no one bothering them, so it was great. - It's necessary. You truly don't know how bad to 14-year-olds who barely know how to play guitar and drum sound. It's awful. - Yes. - I was one of those 14-year-olds. It's really bad. - But their headquarters was also not that great. The fumes of the car mufflers, they're like, are you dizzy too? The lack of heating, the stopping and moving over any time a car would enter the parking lot. Car, car, kind of thing. It wasn't sustainable, so eventually they were able to move their headquarters. One more time to Billy Murcia's new house, which was bigger, lots of room for borders. That's what his parents would do for extra income. They would actually rent out rooms in their big house in Queens, which had a big-ass basement, as well, and they was there that still and Billy would crank up that five watt amp and play as hard and as loud as they could. Fingers bleeding in all to just one song, one song over and over again, wipe out. - Specifically by The Ventures. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Now the New York dolls with later become known is one of the most fashion-forward bands in history. But this was not an affectation but the dolls cynically used to set themselves apart from the rest of the groups in New York. There weren't, like for example, KISS, who we'll get into in the second episode. - They were a gene jacket band when they started. - They were. - Less we forget. - Instead, all the members of the dolls had their eyes on fashion from a young age. Because for them, fashion was another way to express themselves and, of course, if we're being honest, to attract girls. Billy, Murcia, and Cill Sylvain, following the more outlandish trends of 1966, would go down to Greenwich Village when they were still in high school, just to hang out, wearing polka dotted shirts, checkered pants, and beetle boots. They looked fucking ridiculous because they would usually wear almost identical outfits. - Yes, I loved how they made their pants so tight that they would stick their pants like, like they would put them inside out, right? And then they would tailor it really, really tight and then put it right back on and you'd have to peel it off. - Well, before along, Billy and Cill were designing their own clothes when they couldn't find what they wanted in stores. This is fucking DIY in 1966. Billy's sister and her girlfriends helped them sew their designs while Billy's mom gave in as well and knitted them whatever they wanted knitting 'cause they were really picking the knits. But Billy and Cill weren't the only fashion forward kids at their high school. They noticed another kid out there that was of a similar style to themselves. Although this kid was getting far more attention from the ladies. - Oh, was it Bob Seger? (laughing) - Yeah, he's putting on some night moves. - Yeah, nice. - Well with his jet black hair, this kid, birth name Johnny Gonzalez was about as Italian as they come. Queens threw him through and all the best and all of the worst ways. History, however, would know this kid better as Johnny Thunders. Eventually, lead guitarist for the New York Dolls and won a punk's greatest guitar heroes. (upbeat music) ♪ Johnny Thunders lives on water ♪ ♪ He's on the night ♪ ♪ Johnny Thunders don't need no words ♪ ♪ Don't want to find ♪ ♪ All the people I've been telling ♪ ♪ They can't get through to Johnny ♪ ♪ They will never ever break her down ♪ ♪ Johnny Thunders keeps falling ♪ ♪ And goes on to find ♪ That song, if it is an obvious, is called Johnny Thunder. By the Kinks, 1968, just one thunder though. - Yeah, only one, yeah, singular thunder. It was Johnny, apparently, who thought to put the S on it. That was after he already went through Johnny volume, not a good alias. Makes him sound like he runs a stereo storm, Queens, eh? - Johnny volume stereo! - Come on. - Yeah. - Now Johnny Thunders was to put it lightly, a complicated character. As Ivan, my former bandmate and Long Island Navy put it, Johnny checked every box that Italian Americans like my friend Ivan tried to avoid. Like racism, domestic abuse, and surprisingly, considering the style of the New York Dolls, quite a bit of homophobia. But if you take Johnny Thunders out of the New York Dolls equation, you take the New York Dolls out of rock and roll history completely. And it'd be a damn shame if the story of the Dolls went untold in their music, went unheard, just because one of their members was a bad person who did and said shitty things. - Yeah, Johnny Thunders is a shithead who did and say, and do bad shitty things. You're totally right. - Very bad. - But as you said, he is important to this story, so we will continue in the story on what he contributed. - Yeah. - Because the thing is what he contributed the most, as Sylvain, Sylvain said, what he lacked in, let's say, musical prowess, was that he had, well, some sort of talent. He had looks, charisma, that it factor, that made him a rock star. And Marcus, he told me once that Johnny Thunders is like a siren. And I get that a siren from the ancient Greek story, the Odyssey, you know, he'd be witching, but dangerous. - Very much so. - Be witching. - Yeah, I mean, whether you're gay, straight, man, woman, there is something captivating about Johnny Thunders, like just about his look. And people talk about it again and again, like you just saw him and you're drawn to him. For some reason or another, who the fuck knows why. But his, and it's not just his style that made him so good. I think it was one other member of the New York Dolls. I can't remember who said it, but they said that Johnny Thunders' guitar sounded like a dinosaur screaming in the jungle. And I think that was such a brilliant way to put it. - That is what it sounds like. - And a kronistic. Yes, so this, yes, so this dinosaur be witching siren, right? And we would call him Johnny Thunders. A quick bio, he was born and raised in Queens, New, Queens baby, by the way, he was an ultra boy at their local Catholic church, very Italian-American kid, like you said. But as far as school went, he hated it. And school hated him back. He did terribly in school. He got expelled from a few of them, I think, at least more than two. And, but that was okay with Johnny, because he loved playing baseball. And he was pretty good. His dream was to become a professional baseball player like his hero, Mickey Mantell. - Yeah, he didn't go for the meds. - Exactly, oh no, Mickey Mantell, by the way, is not just a guy named after a bar. He was, he famously played for the New York Yankees. And one seven World Series champions, don't wait, championships, between 1952 and 1962, and he's a Libra. Okay, that's all I know about Mickey Mantell. - Oh, good. - That's all that Wikipedia would tell. But back to Johnny playing baseball as a kid. He would train every day. And according to him, Johnny was scouted by the Philadelphia Phillies, the Boston Red Sox, and the newly relocated LA Dodgers. I don't know if any of this is true, but I did hear that the kid could play. But then came the day that Johnny quit baseball all together during the junior baseball league tryouts. And there was supposedly a rule that the players needed a parent or guardian to be present for these tryouts. But unfortunately for Johnny, he was raised by a single mother who worked two jobs just to make ends meet. So he couldn't have anyone come. His dad had left the family when Johnny was just a baby and just kind of sort of popped up in his. life here and there. He was what you call a deadbeat father, right? So, but according to a Sylvain's book, Johnny's dad was actually supposed to be there at that tryouts that day, as his guardian, but his dad never showed up. So it must have been hard to deal with that kind of disappointment. Sure. Yeah. They say that was sort of the beginning of Johnny thunders. He's sort of like fucking attitude. I'm like, I'm not gonna care about anything. Yeah. I quit. Yeah. I quit whatever. So, but lucky for Johnny, they say lucky for Johnny, though, he had an older sister who would she took care of him when their mom was working. She dotted on him, spoiled him, rotten, they say. But most importantly, she introduced Johnny to her favorite music of all time. The girl pop groups of the early 1960s were all big fans. And that's when Johnny thunders started getting really getting to music. He would borrow his sister's records and listen to the crystals, the chiffons, the shine, the laws and the, and the angels. Yeah. He loved the angels. I love angels so much. Maybe because it sounded like a baseball team. It was California angels. Oh, they are baseball team. Well, these angels, not the California angels. Yeah. Okay. They had a hit song at the time, not the baseball team. The angels from the 60s. They had a hit song at the time called my boyfriend's back. And you're gonna be in trouble. He went away and you hung around and bothered me every night. And I wouldn't go out with you. You said things that weren't very nice. But boy, friends back, and you're gonna be in trouble. Hey, lad, hey, lad, my boyfriend's back. He is coming better. Cut out the double. You've been spitting lies and I wasn't true. He's coming after you. Hey, he knows what you've been trying. And he knows that you've been lying. He's begun for such a long time. If anybody in Los Angeles wants to start a girl group, I know how to play all these songs on drums. They're like my favorite things to play. That's great. I can't. Okay. All right. Just say one. You know what? Nevermind. Go for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got to have a drummer. Yeah. Yeah. You know, girl group usually has girls, but who are we to discriminate? Hey, hey, I'm talking about the singers. And it wouldn't be the first time I was the drummer and a group that was otherwise all female, the engineers. That's right. I forgot you used to be a girl. Yeah. And also remember, I believe Iggy Pop played backing drums for the iguanas. Yeah. Yeah. I think they even played for some of these girl groups of the time as well. So I think they played a show with a band we'll get to here in a second. About a second. Okay. So after baseball, Johnny is getting pretty big into music. And soon he's rocking out to not just 60s, girl groups. He's rocking out to cool guys like Gene Vincent and Eddie Cochran. Okay. The epitome of teen rebellion in a black leather jacket, you know, that it was the coolest thing ever back then. And Johnny thought so too. Because Johnny, he's a very stylish guy, just like the rest of the New York dolls, best dressed, best hair, most likely to become a rock star. Those are all superlatives that his high school Europe should have said. And of course, best shit head. And of course, so before school, Johnny Gonzalez, AKA Johnny Thunders, would get a maculately trust and put on a Gene Vincent record like this song. I love this song. Be Bapalula. Yeah. [Music] So Teenage Johnny is in and out of school at this point, but his fate would have it. He briefly had what? It just sounds like like just teenage Johnny. It sounds like you're like about to start singing a song. Teenage Johnny is about to sing a song. Teenage Johnny going to high school. Teenage Johnny playing baseball. His daddy don't show up. Teenage Johnny. Oh my God. That's good. You should. You should be in a girl crew. I should. Holy crap. Yeah. Okay. Never get on a motorcycle. All right. Because do you know what happens? I do. Okay. Oh, Johnny Gonzalez. And also, you know, Rest in Peace, Eddie Cochran, and Gene Vincent, by the way. You know, it was it was a what car collision. Yeah. Live fast. Die Young. Definitely. That was the order of the day. Yeah. Unfortunately. So Teenage Johnny, you know, as fate would have it, he briefly attended Newtown High School where Sylvain and Billy were also students. Yeah. They're all roaming the halls together. Sylvain said when he first noticed Johnny thunders in the hallways, he couldn't help but notice how incredibly good looking Johnny was. Yeah. He really was. Sylvain described him in his, oh, what? He really was. I know. He's a racist. Oh, shit. Yes. But he was. I know. It's just I saw all of that get erased by you of like just by how cute he was. You're just like, he really was. He was really cute. I know. He's a siren. I know. Say it. You know, when I look at him now, though, I'm just like, no, that didn't turn me on. But panty still dry. Good. Okay. But Sylvain, on the other hand, thought he was incredibly good looking. He actually described him in his memoir as having sculpted cheekbones, painstakingly. How do you say this? Caught hair. Caught. Caught. Caught. Okay. Really fancy hair. He also noticed that Johnny was constantly surrounded by beautiful girls from school. So one day at the cafeteria at lunch, Sylvain went up to Johnny to see if he could play an instrument, you know, anything because if Johnny was in the band with Sylvain and Billy, maybe a lot of girls would hang out with them, you know, they would all hang out together. That was their master plan. It all comes back to girls always. Yeah. But when Sylvain asked, it's like an roll. Yeah. Right. Why did I hang out at skate parks at 15? This is what we do. Yeah. But when Sylvain asked him, Johnny said he didn't know how to play anything. But then he thought about it again and asked Sylvain, wait, how many strings does a guitar have? And Sylvain said six, six strings. Okay. So how many strings does a bass guitar have? Four, yeah. Four strings. And then Johnny said, okay, I'll be your bassist. That must be easier, right? It is. It is. It's just stayed in school. And that's when Johnny, how big is it? Sixth string of fourth string. That's what I do to four strings. How many strings in an ooze? I think seven. Oh, never mind. Okay. So that's when Johnny started coming over to say, I think it's four. Oh, I think it's three. What? Okay. Wait, Rob, Rob, where is he? I feel like I'm blind 11 strings. Wow. Yeah. It's like a loot. Oh, okay. So it would take the entire band of the New York Dolls to play one instrument. Okay. So Johnny started coming over to the Morseas basement and jamming with Sylvain and Billy. And soon realized that the bass actually isn't that much easier at all. So being the rock god that he wanted to be Johnny switched to lead guitar and told Sylvain, your rhythm guitar, sorry, he sucks to be you, but these are rock god rules. And, you know, I got the best hair. So they jam together for maybe a few weeks until Johnny forgot or got bored or got kicked out of school, which I think is right because soon he enrolled into Quintanos, you know, the performing art school in Manhattan. And he was soon in a band called Johnny in the J walkers. Then they changed it to the rain like R E I G N rain. So not confusing, but Johnny's band, they didn't last long, but they did get to record a demo, which is on YouTube. Here's their song by the rain recorded in the winter of 1967 called zippered apart. And give them a little bit of leeway here. Yeah, why not? These are teenagers. So that's no gene Vincent or my boyfriend's back, but you know what, it's a start. Yeah. And you got to start somewhere. And that's a pretty good start. And it's really not that far off from the first New York dolls album. It's really not. It's not that many years, maybe six. So you know like something like that it's it's a very short period of time. That's right Yeah, that's a good lesson to learn if your first attempt sucks just give it like six seven more years, and you'll be there. Yeah, maybe Yeah, we could only hope but yeah, it does show you like that's stick to itiveness as they call it now You mentioned Quintanos that it took me a long time to realize Quintanos wasn't like the cool pizza joint Where everyone hung out at or like right next to the quiz nose. Yeah. Yeah. Now it was a school It was behind Carnegie Hall and Manhattan. It was a high school for models musicians and actors kids on the entertainment Like a performing arts school. Yeah. Yeah, like I think yeah, New York has more performing art schools now Yeah, amongst others the former students at Quintanos included a Bernadette Peters Yeah, a co-star of the jerk patty Duke She did more than that. I mean, I would say and he gets your cousin and she won Donis for Broadway. That was fantastic I would say I'm a great anatomy the two-part series a two-part episode episode arc. She was really good on that Yeah, with the the limo episode. She was in that. Okay. We're getting too far off the beat But still I would say our list is probably nowhere from a jerk Patty Duke went to Quintanos She a patty Duke of course co-starred in the 1960s cult classic Valley of the Dolls with none other than Sharon Tate But most impressively Quintanos was also attended by a singer who was part of a girl group that was Above all other girl groups the favorite of every New York Dolls The Queens girl group the most Queens girl group that ever existed the singer who went to Quintanos was Mary Weiss And her group was the toughest of all the Shangri-La's You get the picture yes, we see that's when I fell for the leader of the He was That song was number one in the music charts in October 1964 They had three top 10 records and 11 top 10 hit songs in the two years. They were a pop group Yeah, and they're from Queens. Yeah, I know it's very important to mention that Queens baby And they met in high school just like the New York Dolls, you know, Mary Weiss the lead vocalist You know after the Shangri-La's After their hiatus and everything she went on to work at an architecture firm She worked in specializing in commercial interiors in a building in downtown Manhattan But then unfortunately her career ended when the building she had been working on was gutted due to the September 11th attacks in 2001 talk because her building was just one block away from the World Trade Center That's tragic. Here's leader of the pat Wrong Maybe we can actually do a room room My god, yeah Mary Weiss is she's a very interesting person because she talked quite a bit in the later years about the Shangri-La's But she is this like oh my god don't ask me about the Shangri-La's the very light sit down for three hours It's exactly what it was But yet god I fucking love the Shangri-La so much the Quintanos could not hold Johnny thunders attention anymore the new town high and at age 16 He dropped out of high school to more or less hang out in Central Park by day and immerse himself in the rock scene of 1967 New York by night Bouncing between the action club in Long Island and the newly opened film or east where at the time Friend of the show Alan Arcush was actually working as a picket taker. Yeah, yeah, Johnny saw phenomenal performances from British bands specifically And we of course he saw the kinks, but he also saw the rolling stones who are reworking American blues into something harder Faster and younger, but because Johnny and his friends were fearless and brazen and because rock stars were far more app to socialize with teenagers in the 60s in 70s who well the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s. Let's just say until COVID Johnny actually ended up hanging out with a slew of musicians who are now legends. They were a lot more accessible that Far more. Yeah, thunders drink beer in Rod Stewart's hotel room at the Newport Jazz Festival He met Janice Joplin and the MC5 and he even saved a cigarette packet as a souvenir when he tracked down Keith Richards in Manhattan And spent a night drinking with him at the bar on 13th and 5th. What is he a private investigator? You could find him. He just had like that's the funny thing about the New York Dolls is that they were kind of male groupies before they were musicians Now the Rolling Stones would cast a long shadow over the New York Dolls throughout their career And Keith Richards would of course be a huge influence on many members of the band including Johnny thunders Let's hear a little bit of Keith Richards in which Johnny thunders definitely He even listened quite closely to the song. Let's say , "I'm on the road, I'm on the road, watch her as she goes" "Don't wanna stand very obviously" "But you did it on a liberty, you did the band the job" Yeah, now Johnny had always been a hip kid, but it was his girlfriend Janice Kafaso who amplified Johnny's look and made it more feminine Johnny began wearing high heels teasing his hair and wearing women's blouses with sparkling vests and cowboy scarves Complete with makeup and this is 1967 But Johnny was not the only glam adjacent artist whose girlfriend was the brains behind his more feminine look Mark Bolan of T-Rex, David Bowie, Brian Eno, all of them had their feminine styles kick-started by their significant others I mean it was so easy just to be like, "Can I borrow your eyeliner?" Or more likely, "Where is my eyeliner? I can't find my eyeliner" I mean really, most guys just need a girl to say like, "No, it's hot, go for it" Like if you hear a girl tell you that, especially like 17, it doesn't do anything Now, Johnny was doing this in the late 60s when most of America was still wrapping their heads around bell bottoms and long hair on boys That was still freaking people out But while Janice effectively created Johnny's look, she was also the inspiration for what was, without it out, Johnny's greatest song Which he wrote when he was just 19 years old See, Johnny's romantic life was, and this is putting it very, very lightly, eternally fucked up And his relationship with Janice was just as tumultuous as all of his others Some of his relationships, you might even describe as illegal Right Yeah, downright wrong, I would say Yeah, wrong, yeah, we could also say that But his relationships were doomed by what Johnny's biographer called "A Volatile Neatiness" And so, inspired by a throwaway line from one of Johnny's favorite TV shows, "The Honeymooners" I love "The Honeymooners" Honeymooners is fantastic Actually, I don't know if it holds up as well Or more, I love Lucy people We are Inspired by that line, Johnny wrote one of the greatest breakup songs in existence A full 10 years before he actually recorded it See, while Johnny Thunders had the heart of a bastard He also had the undeniable soul of a poet as some bastards do And when he accessed the part of himself that was connected to the universe at large He was able to write gorgeous heart-wrenching tunes like this one You can't put your arms around a memory If you are not alone, who baby are not at home And when I'm alone, big deal, I'm still alone If the rest resides on, beat my head against the flow ♪ Try the night to come ♪ ♪ Down in my heart ♪ ♪ And even though they don't cheer ♪ ♪ The skies are so warm ♪ ♪ And when they go ♪ ♪ They let you know ♪ ♪ You can't put your honor out of them ♪ ♪ I'll raise you ♪ ♪ And put your honor out of them ♪ ♪ I'll raise you ♪ ♪ Don't cry ♪ ♪ Don't cry ♪ - Put some beeswax in my ears. I can't help. I'm gonna go towards that quaff. (laughing) The quaff? - Quaff is the siren. Get you again. - Oh, yes it does. So we are in a near quaff. - Well Johnny Thunders was working out his style with a guidance of his girlfriend Janice, his fellow future New York dolls, Billy Mercier and Sylvain, were about to put their own stamp on fashion in the late 1960s. See after Billy and Sylv had fleeting success playing in a three-piece band inspired by the stooges and the hoo, they called it The Pox, they put Catch the Pox on all of their flyers. (laughing) - Why? - Their band fell apart sometime in 1968 after their guitarist fucked off to San Francisco. So Billy and Sylv put music on pause for a bit and got day jobs at the hippest clothing shops in Manhattan. Billy got a job at a shop on St. Mark's Place called Grizzly Furs that specialized in what else but used Furs while Sylv got hired at an ultra-hip clothing store that also sold knick-knack spongs, what have you, just above Midtown called a different drummer. And they're still played shopboy to the likes of Bridget Bardot and the ultra-cool Janice Joplin. (singing) ♪ Yeah, we're gonna rock it, rock it, we're gonna suck it, it's not ♪ ♪ I can tell you the feeling, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh I mean, that's a cool Janice Chaplin was like you could hit like she barely said actually three words and that clip We just played and still you're like god damn. She's cool Now the shop located across the street from a different drummer the place was so worked That shop would play a far more important part in our tale today That shop was a bizarre New York City institution that probably wouldn't have existed anywhere else in the world Yeah, you don't take so It's okay, so yes So Bane's clothing store or the store that he worked at Was across the street from the New York doll hospital Yeah, because yes, a doll does need a hospital Yeah, and actually there are several specialized repair and restoration shops known as doll care centers Okay, Marcus. Okay, but are they doll hospitals? Yes Actually, they are one of the earliest ones was in Sydney, Australia that opened the Original doll hospital in 1830 literally called the original doll hospital So yes, so many are doll hospitals. Okay, this doll needs an animal kind of thing and everything Okay, now this doll hospital the New York doll hospital was opened in 1900 and closed in The year 2009 actually I remember that. Yeah, I remember when it closed too. Yeah, so I remember where I was when I first heard anyway, but that's they say you become a real New Yorker when you're able to say I know I used to be there Oh my god, you're right. Yeah, and then the next thing was it's not like it was before. Yeah, yeah Anyway back to Sylvain working right by the doll hospital Every time he passed by that big neon sign that said New York doll hospital on the second floor of an old brownstone building He thought to himself man. That's a great band name Sylvain even said in his autobiography. I knew it was the greatest band name of all time. Yeah, all it needed was The greatest band really and this is 1968 so Sylvain held on to that name for almost three years Until the New York Dolls actually formed, but we're gonna get into that very soon. Yeah, and what what did you say? Who did you say I had that thing where if you have a real the Cohen brothers if you have a really good idea Write it down and put it in a drawer and someday you'll come across it again Totally, and that's what Sylvain did with it. It's like that's a great fucking band name. I just got to find the band Now as I said earlier Philly and Sill have been designing their own clothes since high school So when Sill was fired from a different drummer from missing work He and Billy started selling their own psychedelic sweaters and wool bikinis which were apparently massive in the night late 60s It was a big deal. They were inspired by the bright colors traditionally worn in Billy's home country of Colombia Before long Billy and Sill were selling their clothes to the coolest shops in Manhattan like jump in jack flash granny takes a trip and Betsy Bunky Nini's Betsy Bunky Nini's is actually very important clothing store in Manhattan that one was that near the Yuvola It was owned by legendary designer Betsy Johnson. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, Betsy Johnson She's the one who designed the outfits for the velvet underground and had in the process married John Kale of the velvet underground in the process of What designing their outfits was Betsy Johnson Heming Lou Reed's pants while she was walking down the aisle No, I mean that she had met them to design their outfits and then while she had designed their outfits throughout the year She got to know John Kale and eventually the two of them got married You're telling me this like we didn't do a whole series on the velvet underground We're the one who's being purposefully obtuse about my riding. I am very purposely obtuse put that on my tombstone No, that is true. Lou Reed got mad at her because she didn't him his pants right. Yeah But then again, Lou Reed gets mad if you don't look at him right And Betsy Johnson was also a A judge on drag race. That's true. Oh no, she's legendary. She is and one thing John Kale said even though their marriage didn't work out was that She was the hardest working most motivated and vicious woman without being a total complete bitch really nice person But she worked her ass off every single day and it paid off and my hats off to to Betsy Johnson by the way indeed and still her clothes are too expensive I'm dumb way too expensive. Yeah, but still surveying and Billy mercia Betsy Johnson was the type of people that they were selling their clothes too. They were being taken very seriously in the fashion world And eventually Billy and Sill's fashion venture was successful enough to need a name so they took a phrase from the movie poster for the ultra cool satire Putney Swope and called it truth and soul. Here's something from the soundtrack of that movie just to kind of show you How fucking cool wise these guys had taste. You can't eat an air conditioner. Yes, that movie putney swole Swope sorry directed by Robert Downey senior who Dubbed the voice of a black man in this film as a satire. We haven't seen it yet But apparently it is Criterion collection. You said the George Lucas foundation actually restored this And it is apparently a very important piece of art of film. We haven't seen I haven't seen it yet Well, I know I mean it was sampled in a ton of hip-hop songs like I mean it was sampled as far back as like 1985 Putney Swope was a daleshole sampled it. I think in three is a magic number But it's a you know, it's cool. It's what you call a cool movie. All right. We got to watch - That's it before we make any other opinion. (laughing) - I just know it's respected. - Now by 1970, still and Billy were earning $5,000 for every fashion line they put out. - $5,000. (laughing) - Hey, it was serious money in Wayne's World time, but this is 1970. - $5,000 is so much money in 1970. - $5,000 today to be like, give me $5,000. (laughing) - Wow. - Yeah, but running a business at the age of 19 is a massive drag, especially during one of the most simultaneously exciting and terrifying times in American history to be young. 1960, 1970. - Yeah, that's a good point. Oh, I got such a drag having a successful business as being an immigrant in this new country and actually just succeeding. Oh, gosh. I should go get high and fuck off to Europe. - And that's exactly what they did. - Well, fuck. (laughing) - Yeah, this is a matter of your immigrant or successful or anything, be a 19. You don't want to fill out order forms. You want to go get high and party. That's what they did. And after making a particularly big sale, Billy cashed out his side of the business and headed to Amsterdam and still followed a few months later in the summer of 1970. But not before stopping off in London for a purchase that would change still Sylvain's sound completely. See, even though they were in a fashion, Sylv was still a guitarist at heart. And in London, Sylvain bought a Marshall stack amp, which today I could literally get a Marshall stack amp delivered to my doorstep by tomorrow. But in 1970, a Marshall stack was an exceedingly expensive piece of equipment in America, in England, not so much. So, and Sylv had wanted a Marshall stack ever since he'd seen Hendrix using one a few years earlier. And as it turned out, it was an exceedingly wise purchase because Sylv's Marshall stack that he paid to have shipped back to America, it would do wonders to beef up the New York Doll sound when they started playing the clubs of New York in due time. Yes, but the Marshall amps weren't the only thing that would help the New York Dolls get to the next level, because this is the time of the beginning of glam, right? Glamrock and pop and everything in between. And it was lucky, or let's say serendipitous, that Sylvain was in London in 1970. When he got to watch a performance at the legendary Roundhouse venue, which we should talk about soon. And he got to see one of the coolest shows ever, one of the masters of glam. Mark Bowen. Yeah. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] That was Ride a White Swan, which I don't recommend. Released in March, 1970 by Mark Bowen's band, Tyranosaurus Frex, who's just about to become T-Rex, mostly because their manager, Tony Visconti, remember that name? Oh, yeah. Tony Visconti is the man who made both. Exactly. Tony Visconti was Mark Bowen's manager at the time and his producer. He was tired of writing out the Tyranosaurus part in their calendars and promotional stuff. It's annoying. Even the dinosaur goes by T-Rex, right? So they changed it to T-Rex very soon after that. But anyway, Mark Bowen was essentially T-Rex. I mean, they were a duo. It was just Mark Bowen and a bongo drummer hippie named Steve Peregrine took. Goddamn it. Not his real name. This song, this song, writer White Swan, is at the beginning of their glam period in 1970. But T-Rex did start, they actually started as a band in 1967 as a barefoot cross-legged hippie duo writing songs about a wizard Mark Bowen met in the woods just outside of Paris, which is a real story, according to Mark, sometimes. Sometimes he says it's real and sometimes he says, oh, you know, the media, they like to embellish things. By the way, it really, really happened. Yeah, Mark loved to play with the media and to tell really fucking bizarre stories about French wizards. Exactly. No. And, you know, who knows who to say that's not true? Actually, we are, not true. Anyway, I do believe Mark Bowen wrote his own version of Lord of the Rings. Yeah, without reading Lord of the Rings. I'm not kidding. Look it up. But by 1970, Mark had given up his whole Robbie Shankar, inspired hippie vibe and traded in his acoustic guitar for a Fender Stratocaster electric guitar. And in the following year, he released his biggest album, Electric Warrior, right? Which will definitely influence the New York Dolls in everything they do, especially with composing their music. But also his style, because Mark Bowen looked like a super hot rock star with white makeup and costume, he was definitely like a ruffled shirt and velvet kind of guy, a very hot rock and roll Willy Wonka. Okay, hotter, much hotter. Much hotter. Yes, also he just looked like Willy Wonka, though. But a hotter one. Yeah, yeah, far hotter, yeah, far more stylish Willy Wonka. Sorry, also as a research note, by the way. Sylvain spoke about going to this concert in his autobiography, but it's also in Johnny Thunders' bio that he had gone to London with a press pass. He had borrowed from a friend and saw T-Rex in 1969 at the roundhouse where steam hammer opened, which is the same show that happened in 1970, and which inspired Johnny to find a band to join. But I'm not sure if that's correct, but then again, who cares? They all loved Mark Bowling the moment he went to electric and they never looked back. Come on, check out this banger of a song. This song will make you have sex even if you're alone. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] OK, so Sylvain leaves London super inspired. He then goes to Amsterdam and sees the who in concert in 1970. But most importantly, actually, he found Billy Morcia. He was busking on the street where they actually ran into each other, because Amsterdam is actually not that big of a city. It's not. So they ran into each other. They hogged, and then they just kept traveling around Europe together until they got busted, of course. So they were back in London. When the police raided the hostel, they were staying at. The cops were looking for a couple of Americans who were illegally shipping Hashish back to the states. The cops went to every person and asked them if they were American. That was pretty much how they were going to bust them, right? And Sylvain stupidly said, yes. Yeah. Oh, god, what? And when they found a little Hashish in his pocket, he spent a few days in jail. But Billy was smart and said, no, no, senior. No, no, no, no, I'm telling you this is Hashish. Remember Billy is Colombian from Bogota. Yes, that's right. Anyway, after Sylvain got out of jail, they were escorted to the airport and placed on a flight back to New York City. So that was the end of their trip. But at least he got those Morcia amps. He did, and that was the most-- he got the martial amps. He sought T-Rex. He saw the who. I mean, it was a hell of a few months. Now, it's around this time that the future lead guitarist of the New York Dolls, he decided that Johnny Gonzali wasn't the coolest name in existence. He's right. It's terrible name. Johnny replaced the Gonzali with thunders, either after a comic book cowboy, the same name, or after the classic we played earlier from the kinks. Put the S on it. And thus, he created one of the best rock and roll names in history. And with this new name bolstering as confidence, Johnny eventually hooked back up with Billy and Cell. And they all became regulars at a bar down in the village called Nobodies. The future dolls have been drawn to Nobodies. Because by 1970, this had become one of the coolest rock and roll hangouts in New York City. Night after night, Johnny, Billy, and Cell would watch as rock royalty, like Rod Stewart, Jimmy Page, a Robert Plant, would walk in and hold court with the ladies at the bar. One time, they said they even saw Iggy Pop there, Although they said egg-y. just sat there looking sad for a few hours, nobody talked to them and he just left alone. Oh man, that is such a niggie pop story. I think I've read that story. I've read that story many times. You talked about that in the stages many years ago. Our first series was on the stages and for a little while there, he was a bit of a joke. He was. In the 70s. In the early 70s. Before the idiot. Yeah. Before he went to Berlin, you know, and did his David Bowie boot camp. Yeah. Yes. Well, that's all to say that nobody's was the first hangout spot for the band that will become the New York Dolls, a spot that will become part of their identity. It would also be where they would interact with one of their other future members for the first time. Yes. As a friend remembered it, Johnny Thunders was tripping on acid at nobody's one night when a blonde six foot tall monster came lumbering in wearing huge platform boots. And the first thing that Johnny's acid-addled brain had was that Frankenstein had just arrived. He's like, he fucking knows him. Hi, man. Frankenstein's here. It was, of course, not Frankenstein. What? Rather, this lumbering gentle giant on platforms was Arthur Killer Kane, future bassist of the New York Dolls. Now, Arthur represented the northernmost burrow, the Bronx. He'd been a straight-a student and a bit of a loner growing up. And he was so quiet that he was given the ironic nickname of Arthur Killer Kane. But after Arthur's mother died when he was 17, he began to rebel by drinking, smoke and pot, and of course, sniff and glue. Eventually, though, well, I have, of course, because that's what all these guys did. They all sniffed glue. It was big in the outer burrows. Yeah. And some of them even wrote songs about it. Oh, that's right. That there's that one song called, what was it called? No, it's called sniffing glue. Eventually, though, Arthur picked up a guitar. And in order to avoid getting drafted into the Vietnam more, Arthur enrolled at Pratt College to study of all things. And I think he just picked it at random hotel management and food science. But it was while Arthur was at Pratt that he and his high school buddy, George, better known now in New York rock history as Rick Rivets. They got really serious about their band London Fog with two G's. I will say, again, it's important to keep in mind as we listen to this clip with London Fog. It's more about heart here than it is about talent. They're I'm trying. No hard. Yeah. I hate it always right. I'm going all the way out of my way. I'm very mad. So when they recorded this, was someone wearing a wire? Like was this on purpose? I think it was they were playing a live show and somebody was just standing in the audience with a little microphone. Oh, they did that with a velvet underground too, as we all know. Okay, very cool. Well, I mean, this song obviously London Fog, they're very garage band inspired. Yeah. Yeah, Trogs. Exactly. The London Fog with 2G's, named after a jacket or I believe, raincoat company. It probably had 2G's because of the Trogs. No, no, it's because it was a raincoat or a jacket company. But the jacket company doesn't have 2G's. How do you know that? Because I know it. Rob. We need a tiebreaker. Yeah, yeah. London Fog isn't spelled with 2G's. I know that with the raincoat company. And I know the raincoat company, the raincoat company doesn't have 2G's. I think they add 2G's because Trogs have 2G's and they sound like the Trogs. The Trogs. What's the song? Wild thing. And a girl like you is also an incredible underrated 60s garage classic. Gotcha. Nope. 1G. London Fog. All right. They must have changed it since 1970. They must have been like that's stupid. Okay. You're probably right. Yeah. You're probably totally correct. All right. So they were named London Fog with 2G's after the Trogs. They actually did manage to get some gigs downtown. At the bitter end and Cafe Wau. By the way, shout out to forte dormant of Cafe Wau for I don't know how long I've seen 10 years. But they all all power to you. But back to Arthur and his best friend and bandmate Rick Rivets or who they called Big George. Big George. Yes. I know. This is this is a very Robin Hood kind of thing. Okay. So these guys there are very influenced as I said by garage bands, blues bands, rock bands, or all of the above, which is pretty much the yard birds. Yeah. So here's a song. It's a bow diddly cover, but a great cover with Jeff Beck playing guitar. And it's called I'm a man. I'm a man. This is just like the Rolling Stones, you know, it's blues, but it's faster and it's harder and it's louder. And these guys are paying attention. Oh, totally. Yes, definitely. And of course Arthur and Big George are very much paying attention. I mean, Rick Rivets, right? That's what he would like to go by. They got to see the yard birds live when they came to Long Island, New York to a venue called Action House. Yeah. It was very self-explanatory. Very, very cool venue. I believe KISS started there when they were a blue chain band. So Arthur even got to hang out with the yard birds that night that they saw the show. And they also made damn sure the check out what shoes and clothes the yard birds were wearing. Arthur took notes. Then afterwards he would hit the thrift shops and get, you know, these used leather motorcycle jackets. And shirts silk scarves to wear and some bright red boots. Yeah, I want to, I want to look just like all of him. Fobish pop and Jesus. Yes. I just saw. Marty Cray. We're just shaking and it's the gray right now. Yes. So Arthur Cain also had, just like the rest of the New York dolls, a very, very good sense of fashion. Yeah. At the very least, because he was very big into like fabrics, like velvet and satin and looking damn fashionable for the time. Even if he got shit for it, he didn't care. Yeah. He loved how he looked, especially wearing his platform boots when he was already like six foot four, which is the gigantic for that time. That's why Johnny thought he was Frankenstein. And it wasn't long until Arthur got, you know, going to Europe to go shopping bug like the rest of the New York dolls. They all did this on their own separately, by the way, but like Sylvain and Billy and it actually even Johnny thunders went for a bit. As we said, he got a press pass and everything. Arthur's trip though ended quite abruptly. When he, this happened for real, he bought a motorbike at an outdoor market and Amsterdam. He drove it around like an idiot. He got pulled over by the cops. And when the cops noticed that Arthur's visa was expired and that the motorbike was actually stolen. Arthur was properly escorted to the airport and put on a flight back to New York City. These guys have already a lot in common. Yes. So funny enough, Arthur and Rick rivets met Johnny thunders in the most meet cute way. The most meet cute rock and roll shady ass way, to be honest. You see Arthur and Rick rivets, after they got back from Europe, they got day jobs. Rick as a postal worker and Arthur as a telephone repairman. But it was just way too boring for them. So one night, I don't know why, but one night they were riding in their van downtown in the West, in the West Village. In the up of a site. But one night they were riding in their van downtown in the West. I can't say it right. I want to wipe your windows. I'm the Viper. Where are you from the up of a site? I got to stop this. I got to stop this. Okay. So one night, I don't know why, but they were riding in their van downtown in the West Village on Bleaker Street when they saw a really nice motorcycle and decided to steal it. the reason why everyone in New York's The city in 1970 was like a low-grade criminal. - Everyone, I believe it was like everyone. - Many, many. - No, go, oh no. - Yeah, many. - Let's say many. - Yeah, okay. - Okay, okay. At any point, really. Okay, so Arthur and Rick Rivett's actual criminals, they decided to steal it. And instead of trying to hotwire it, they decided to pick it up and load it into their van. But the problem was, the motorcycle was way too heavy for them. So they only got the front half of it into their battered Volkswagen van. Like just the butt was sticking out the whole time. And it took him like a half hour to even do that. They were also very drunk. - A couple of fucking guns. - And they were also looking very suspicious in front of everyone on Bleaker Street. - Yeah, they got platform shoes on. - And trying to steal someone's bike. And so yes, they were looking very suspicious. Everyone's kind of stopping like what's going on? Especially Johnny Thunders, who happened to be on Bleaker Street, trying to front of them outside of Pizza Parlor. And that's when Arthur, Kane and Rick Rivett saw Johnny and recognized him from the film more and nobody's. So they forgot about their crime. That they were committing. And they walked over to Johnny Thunders to see if he wanted to play music with them sometime. And according to Johnny Thunders, he was just enjoying some pizza when two large individuals just started walking towards him in a menacing way with scared Johnny enough into thinking like should I run? Oh wait, I'm wearing platforms, like that won't work. And it doesn't, I tested that theory, it does not work. - No, it's bad. - No. But as Arthur and his buddy got closer, Johnny recognized them and was like, all right, those are the two giant Frankensteins who hang out, we're hanging out. And soon introductions were made. And they made arrangements to jam together some time. I don't know what happened to that motorcycle, but maybe it was destiny, you know what I mean? Destiny, destiny, no escaping that for me, destiny. - Very important. - Very, very important. Now, after Arthur's relationship with his father disintegrated, he moved into the mercy of home, Doughton Queens, 'cause as you said earlier, the mercy is ran a boarding house and still Sylvain, Billy Marcia and Rick Rivers, they were already living in the Marcia house. And before long, Arthur, Sill, Billy, Rick, and Johnny were playing in the Marcia family basement in the earliest incarnation of the New York Dolls, taking turns as lead singer, shouting over the noise. Sill, however, took an extended trip to the UK in mid 1971 and stayed there until the end of the year. But the band that will become the New York Dolls continued while he was gone. While Sill wasn't looking, Billy Marcia kind of sort of stole Sill's idea for the name of their fledging band. While Sill was gone, the group started calling themselves the dolls. Partly, this name played into the way they were dressing, which was already inching towards drag. But it's important to note that the way these guys looked on stage is the way they dressed to go to the fucking bodega. I mean, that is what Sill Sylvain would say, he said it would take us five hours to get ready to go to the grocery store. And it was a hell of a courageous thing to do in 1971. And they were doing it simply because that's how they like to dress. I would love to be like, so are these, are these grapes like ripe? Or what do you think? And completely in drag, like they're a caffeine, kids in a hall, yeah. Now, eventually, Johnny Thunders got tired of commuting all the way to Queens for rehearsal from his apartment in alphabet city in Manhattan. What, what neighborhood in Queens was the Mercilla family house? I actually don't know. They weren't Jamaica. They were Jamaica, okay, yeah, yeah, fuck. Yeah, alphabet city Jamaica, it's going to take a while. So Arthur tracked down a rehearsal space around the corner from the natural history museum on 82nd and Columbus. And while today that area is quite posh, I mean, where in Manhattan isn't after all. It is like totally like you can't even afford to step on anyone's sidewalk at this point. You can't even afford to park there, but back then 82nd and Columbus was the site of Rusty's bicycle repair shop, which was owned by a surly old New York character named Rusty. May he rest in peace? Yeah, he's definitely dead. I'm guessing he's dead. Rusty, however, didn't trust the bands that he rented this rehearsal space to. So to keep the dolls from stealing Rusty's bikes. And you know what, he had good reason to, otherwise. Yeah, Rusty was like kind of on point with this one. He would lock the entire band inside his storeroom to rehearse while he left for the evening. And then he would come and unlock the door when their time was up. What if there was a fire? They would all burn to death in there. You see, some of the guys already tried stealing. Remember? And some of them were selling drugs. I think Johnny Thunder's was selling quailudes. You know, I mean, I don't, and also, by the way, I don't believe any of the New York dolls ever got away with their crimes ever. So it was very adorable and cute. And that's on Rusty's head. Yeah, I guess Rusty's beanie head. Like I said, low grade criminals. Yes, so back to the early lineup of the dolls. At this point, they're the dolls. So we got Billy Murcia on drums. Rick Rivitz on rhythm guitar since Sylvain is still, you know, in England, having no idea they've gone ahead and started a band without him, like you said. Arthur Killer Kane on bass guitar. So Johnny Thunder's got lead guitar and even did some vocals for a lot of their songs at this time. And this is around October 1971, when Rick Rivitz brings his cassette player to record a demo that they would call the actress tapes, which is supposedly their first band name, but that's not true. They were already the dolls by this point. Yeah. So these songs they recorded at a rehearsal, at Rusty's bike shop, these were original songs, mostly written by Johnny Thunder. Like this one called, That's Poison. (upbeat music) ♪ My life is a pointless and complicated ♪ ♪ I try every night to have you near me ♪ ♪ But until you get ♪ ♪ It's my evening ♪ ♪ Wait a while ♪ ♪ Wait a while ♪ ♪ You're my ring of the flag ♪ - You know, maybe I'm gonna crash my boat into the rock. (laughing) - No, I'm kidding, 'cause honestly, it is not easy to start and it is always good to just try and just get it out there. No matter how much it might suck or, you know, or whatever, but it doesn't even suck that bad. - It really doesn't. I've heard and played far worse. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Put it on the new or whatever compilation, Carolina Dago, it doesn't suck that bad. (laughing) - As rough as that is, I mean, you can still hear, that you'd sit in the break. You said, you can still hear Johnny Thunder's in that. I agree completely. You can hear the signature Johnny Thunder's guitar, and of course, his voice, nobody sounds like him. It shows promise, and because Johnny Thunder's obviously wasn't a strong singer just yet, as you just heard, he decided to focus on guitar. So the dolls went searching for a real singer, and through a former tenant at the Marcia House, they found a guy who had moved to Manhattan from our final borough of the evening, Staten Island. This guy's name was David Johansson, and once Johansson joined as one of the greatest frontmen of the 1970s, the song you just heard, that's poison, it became the classic New York Dolls track, Subway Train. (upbeat music) ♪ I can't ever understand ♪ ♪ One of my life ♪ ♪ Because poison can kill ♪ ♪ When I've been trying every night ♪ ♪ Don't forget me ♪ ♪ But I'm telling you ♪ ♪ It ain't easy ♪ ♪ Ever since I've been riding ♪ ♪ By all the Subway Train ♪ ♪ You can hear the words over the wind ♪ ♪ You might think I'm insane ♪ ♪ And now you're friends ♪ ♪ You're human ♪ - Yes, and that's where we'll pick back up next week, with the story of David Johansson and the formation of the early 70s New York City scene that the dolls helped create who leads singer. - Yes, I mean, I'm very excited. I mean, this is just the beginning. - Yeah, it really is. I mean, next week we're gonna be getting in so many different avenues in New Yorkshire, we're gonna be getting into Jackie Curtis, gonna be getting back into Max's Kansas City. One more time, you know? We're gonna be getting into, you know, the fucking The Mercer Arts Center. You know, like, there's gonna, and there's so many great characters like Suicide shows up. You know, everybody's here and you were all shows up. Everyone is in the next episode. And then it's very sad for a bit. And then it gets fun again. - It was really fun, yeah. Like every rock and roll story of the 1970s, perhaps. But first of all, I would like to give a very big thank you to Patrick Fisher, our assistant researcher and co-producer of No Dogs in Space. And thank you to Kelsey Netzer for all her help. And a big thank you to Rob Okie for recording and editing this episode. He did a fucking fantastic job. - Thank you Rob. - We have T-shirts and men's and women's sizes. - Yeah, we got two different designs. - Three. - Three, yes. - Oh yeah, you can find those at lastponcastmarch.com. - Absolutely. - And don't forget to follow us on Instagram @NoDogsPod. Go check out the stuff we're doing on YouTube. Just type in No Dogs in Space. And if you have, let's say a band, if you play music. - If you just make sounds. - If you just make sounds, send us an email at [email protected] and show us your shit. Show us your music. - We'd be honored to play at the end of our episode. We play a band at the end of every episode. Just anybody who just sends it to us on the email and we check it out and we love it. We'd love to promote in this stuff and just keep throwing it out there because, I mean, even if it doesn't get on there, we love hearing new music. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for your submissions, really. - And I also want to say to all the people that have sent us email saying that they started a band because they listened to the show. I met a fantastic fan in Portland who said that they had moved to Portland because they heard this and decided like, "Fuck it, I'm gonna go play some music." "Fuck it, I can't tell you how proud I am of that." And how much that means? - Yeah, no, I've also heard similar things where they started like basement shows and their whole neighborhood like created a scene and everything like, thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you, I mean, we are humbled, humbled and thank you. - Very much so. And our band of the week for our return is a bunch of crot rock inspired weirdos out of Durham, North Carolina. - Which is our favorite kind of people. - Yes, they're called Voidward, they have a manifesto. I love a band with a manifesto and this is what they said about the track they submitted. This track is number seven of what will eventually be 11 versions of The Plough Man. It is the first track from Voidwood's debut, The Knives EP. It was conceived as a companion to a cult symmetry, the two-part micro-album released on final February 22nd, 2025. The Plough Man, 11th anniversary edition macro-single, commemorates 11 years of herring the Void. Here's Voidward. Fuckin' love this shit, it's nine minute long song, it's awesome. Bye everybody, see you next week. - Goodbye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ Stars on the hill of the planet ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Don't turn around ♪ ♪ Turn around ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ I want you all ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ A sound, a feel, a fairy-dovey panic wave ♪ ♪ Don't make me wait, I want you all ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Blow back fly ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ Don't make me wait, I want you all ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ And it goes great for me to you ♪ ♪ And when it returns ♪ ♪ Don't turn it down ♪ ♪ Don't turn it down ♪ ♪ I want you all ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ A sound, a feel, a fairy-dovey panic wave ♪ ♪ Don't make me wait, I want you all ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ I want you all ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ I want you all ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ And it goes great for me to you ♪ ♪ And when it returns ♪ ♪ Don't turn it down ♪ ♪ Turn it down ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ I want you all ♪ ♪ Blow back fly ♪ ♪ A sound, a feel, a fairy-dovey panic wave ♪ ♪ Don't make me wait, I want you all ♪ ♪ No matter how hard I try ♪ ♪ Take me home ♪ ♪ No matter how hard I try ♪ ♪ I want you home ♪ ♪ No matter how hard I try ♪ ♪ Let's sound the feel ♪ ♪ There's no need to find a way ♪ ♪ Don't make me wait ♪ ♪ I want you home ♪ ♪ No matter how hard I try ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ No matter how hard I try ♪ ♪ Let's sound the feel ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ No matter how hard I try ♪ ♪ I want you home ♪ ♪ No matter how hard I try ♪ ♪ Let's sound the feel ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)