Nneka Ogwumike & Matt Barnes on WNBA Growing Pains, Kobe Bryant, Sports Betting, and Scammers

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for the right suv this is your sign check out the 2026 toyota rav4 at your local toyota dealer or visit toyota.com see packages and options at toyota.com for feature availability i want to go to the wmba practice just to see how my skills hold up are you gonna play i just want to see bro and i don't think that i'm better than any of them at all no we didn't think that easy damn us as athletes like they'd say all the time like we die two deaths you need a legalization of like uh betting on sports in a way how do you guys hurt or help the game i do think that the success of the wmba is maturing and realizing that we are distinct trans women in the league or men that are women it's not a real issue there's groupies there's hoes in the w so i love but i think that we have i think you guys women have a different level of discernment wait when's your next game well we don't play again until at home until the 20th i'll be there y'all you lie right here on the show didn't even have to do that have y'all been keeping up with this story from uh day one is it day one an important part of the nfl currently yeah what position do you play all of them i'm glad the niners cut him i'm trying to get on the like uh scam wave bro we stand out right here dog the way that you know i'm saying scam our way here yo i respect the grind that you know pulled up with a helmet and everybody thought he played football i think he had a real helmet head too did you see him take the hat off the helmet off the nigga head looked like a helmet ultimately that's the thing if y'all been around professional athletes i don't know how it is on the women's side but we never really wear our gear anywhere you're not just motherfuckers walk around with a helmet and a logo and my favorite is the video when he told the girl he got traded he said but you know i'm in la now he had been tapping just all the logos i'm like yeah nobody wears the logos just out and about he was wearing it everywhere i'm a niner fan too and i feel like that energy was fucking our team up like we haven't been winning so i'm glad he got his ass i think he's with the rams now hopefully he goes to the cowboys next but just don't be with the niners he has the prison now i mean i do think it's crazy that the fans got involved with this lie as much as i understand 1.3 million dollars is a lot of money what about farm take it was he took a lot more and but he's got the complexion for protection 100 but what he took he took 1.3 from 26 girls bro far too like five million no i mean yeah i think it's crazy the fans got involved though to be like hey you this is not okay i do understand that that's a lot of money but on the other side of it i'm like i feel like people in general lie to get funds out of people all the time so just to see the fans jump in i got a question though what was the one of the songs of the summer where am i i'm a scamming ass niggas yeah and now nobody got one and now you want to arrest them yeah you want to arrest them like you know we still believe in the sanctity of sport right yeah yeah so i feel like you know the fans were mad because they're like nah man like just like matt like that's a that's their team he's messing up the vibes of the team oh you believe that i think niggas are just mad they didn't do the scam i think everybody just watched i'm sure that there are people that were like dang i should have thought of that i was one of them when you sit and listen to what he's saying and then you see him out running and like how do you fall for it and i didn't get to see the whole thing and i normally don't agree with emmanuel atro at all ever but i saw the headline of it just shows how he said something to the tune of how desperate women are to be with professional athletes you know what i mean to kind of like you can look and tell but if you haven't been around one maybe you can't but like it's just like this dude is like i laughed immediately yeah ain't no fucking way bro the drill yeah that's crazy have you seen the the split screen between stefan dicks drill and his i saw on the beach that's hilarious have you seen the video it's so first of all there's a video dropping every second of this man there's a video of him walking around his apartment just pointing that random shit tell you the price of it he's like yeah tv right there four thousand no it was eight but it was a vizio that i just got from costco for 750 i just got one but rich niggas don't do that we walk around like this calls you heard that y'all heard that he said rich niggas don't we don't yeah so they say i've been caught they don't do that no it's insane just to watch this though but like you said brett farr and people like that do scam all the time to be americanist to scam like that you know i mean as unfortunate as it is you know the administration right now scam to get there people in general have you know when you look at america people scam so just to see this dude blow up i'm like man it's unfortunate how long i wonder how long he's down and i guarantee the second he steps out or some of his phone calls are going to be let's make a doc about this dude oh we're literally for sure pitching a story to netflix three days ago and while we were waiting for people everyone to get on the call i brought him up and one of the executives like man that would be a great song i'm just like bro he ran it the fuck up he did him and kawaii kawaii also did it clean bro he paid the 700 bands no i'm not i mean with the kawaii thing i don't know i'm not a professional player i part of me feels like this has been happening for a long time i do hate the fact that this dude went so hard i forget his name again i'm low tore i hate this nigga low key i'm like why are you snitching on brussels i'm happy you switched on the clippers because i hate the i know that's your own take i hate everything they do for me i mean they represent their colors and he dug deep bro he did he he would not let it go bro but i think he won some awards for like his journalistic like he's old school throwback journalistic and kind of like this new digital wave but he dug deep he did they found so many things and everything just came down right yeah like right before the show started 30 million seed bombers been fined and which is your suspension everybody on the team i think the biggest thing that came out of that is the clippers lose five first round picks that's huge in basketball for a team that's kind of floating right now with no real direction or rhyme or reason did they say if the team was going to win they were going to win they were going to win they were going the trade gets to go through. I'm guessing the trade is going to go through. The trade has to go through. The trade is still going to do. $700,000 to make $34 million. I'll do it again, guys. I'll do it again. Maybe you're not, maybe you're not supposed to be here. You're in the wrong place. Well, my scamming ass ain't got that. No, but I'm saying, I do believe I have integrity. Don't treat me like that on this show. I'm just saying that $34, $35 million and they only fined him $700,000. I am like, damn, that's crazy. But it'd be interesting and I think one of the reasons why they didn't go crazy, crazy on this because I think to what you said, I don't think this is the only thing that's kind of shh, don't say it under the table type and not under the table type. I'm not even just saying in our sport. I think across the board, somehow when stars get to teams, you're like, how did that happen? Some shit happened. Yeah. Whenever I see a star take a big cut, I'd be like, boy, they didn't take no big cut. They're going to figure this out. Well, I mean, the boss of all this shit took a big cut. Brother. Yeah, that's true. He made a lot of money during his career. He'd be out. He'd be out. In the WNBA, I know in the NBA they warn a lot of rookies about certain things. What are the warnings that you guys give to rookies? Is it like watch out for men or women, or is it watch out just in general? What is the landscape for a rookie in the WNBA? I mean, for us, we're just entering this new world of value and money. So I wouldn't say that that really is the advice that we're giving. For the longest, since I've been in the league, it was always max out your 401K. And it kind of still is, especially now that people can actually build on it because we came out of the CBA. Interestingly enough, we were having these conversations around retirement opportunities and being able to give former players an option to be able to build their wealth. And Alicia Clark, actually, she brought up something very important. She was like, hey, well, we need to be able to have retirement options for players now because for so long, players couldn't max out their 401K because they had to live off that money. So we need to be able to give them the opportunity to at least build that wealth so then later down the line when we negotiate the next deal, then we can start saying, OK, they have enough for us to be able to move forward in a different way. So, I mean, still stack your cash, still save your money, you know, be smart with your money. I mean, after being in the CBA, I was definitely telling players like, hey, I think you should celebrate this moment, but also be smart about it because, you know, we're in a position now where we can, like, build wealth and stuff. But, you know, there's groupies, there's hoes in the W. So, but I think that we have a different level of discernment, you know, so the landscape is a little bit different, you know. And then also, like, in the W, there's no discrimination. So your entourage could be filled with all different types of people. It really doesn't matter. But, you know, we like to have fun. I want to shout out my homie Ty Young. I've been kicked in with her a couple of times. She keeps an entourage up. Yeah. Bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got people, too. Oh, my goodness. I want to ask you a question off air when we were just talking. And I know it was different than I played. I've almost been out of the league for 10 years now. But just the energy around the game has obviously picked up. And you guys can't pick and choose the good and the bad. It's just the energy as a whole. Do you guys hear the outside noise? Because I feel like the media and people who really don't care a ton about the game are trying to insert themselves in your guys' game. But I feel it's more racially motivated. And, unfortunately, I feel like Kaitlyn Clark is someone who gets tagged. I think that the homegirl, was it Cuttingham? What's her name? Cuttingham? Sophie Cuttingham is kind of getting lost in that mix. Obviously, I don't feel like there's probably a divide between players, but do you guys hear it and feel that energy around the game? Yeah, absolutely. When we were talking about that, you made a really good point about a lot of the media that is being covered, one, isn't talking about the game, and two, is by a lot of media that probably haven't even watched us. And so we feel that a lot. And it's unfortunate because a lot of our players, we care so much about the game, and also we're a league that was built on a platform that stands for a lot of different things. And so, you know, when you're talking about real issues that aren't actually threatening to an environment that everybody's trying to support, you have players that are now, you know, trepidatious about, like, okay, do I talk to the media about, you know, how I think this game went? Do I want to seem insensitive by not talking about something that is a larger issue? But then am I going to give attention to something that isn't even threatening to women's sports? And also, you know, ostracizing or making people feel uncomfortable, who do support our sport? You know, there's just so many different intersections, and I do think that we, we try to manage it as best as we can, but it's, it really sucks, you know? It really does. How much of that do you chalk up to just being, like, the game and, like, the idea of, like, there's good and bad to everything? Like, in any sport, you're using storylines, you're using these narratives to probably push the sport as much as one fan can be here because they're so dedicated to the sport. The next fan might be here just because they're like, I like a little drama. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like it all kind of, like, comes together in different ways, but I like to. Hopefully believe that this is, like, the growing pains of growth, you know? Yeah. I think that, you know, on the men's side, like, y'all deal with a lot of stuff like that, and as the league, like, evolved, you had to deal with different types of attention, different types of stories, them pushing certain types of narratives, and so I would hope that these are growing pains that won't allow us to get lost, you know, in the mayhem of it all because a big reason why we are the way we are today as a league is because of how we've been able to keep the game as pure as it is. Evolve with the game, but then also use it as a platform for bigger things, and so it'll be interesting to see how we come out of this. I think also, I mean, hats off to the league as a whole. Was this year 28 or 29 for the league? 30. 30? Yeah. If you look at where the NBA was at year 30, you guys are so far ahead of where they were, you know what I mean? So, obviously, you being the president and the CBA, you guys have been able to negotiate and starting to get equal pay or at least better pay. I wouldn't even say equal yet, but I think better pay. You guys are so far ahead of. Of the curve, particularly when you try to compare to what the NBA has gone through and how pretty much, you know, before Bird and Magic and the ABA kind of coming in, the NBA was lost. It was too black and too drug-filled. Right. You know what I mean? So, we've definitely had our ups and downs, and now, you know, shout out to, rest in peace, David Stern. His vision was to make it a global game, and it's been able to be that. So, I see, obviously, you guys are on the right trajectory. It just takes time, and today you don't get time. Everyone wants instant gratification today because there's so much coverage around everything, but you don't understand that growth takes time. For sure. What would you attribute to, like, that transition of getting out of that, you know? I mean. Just the talent, you know? Bird came, or Bird and Magic came, then MJ came down the pipeline, and I just think the continued growth of the game, and I think you guys have a ton of talent, and you got a ton of talent in the pipeline. You know, Juju should be there, you know, hopefully she comes back healthy this year at USC and comes, and then she's another star in the making, and I love that, you know, that you guys are also building your brand outside of the game. That used to be, hey, let's just focus on the sport and only the sport, but I feel like as athletes, we're so multidimensional. We can juggle different stuff, and I like that, particularly on the women's side, women have come into the game with huge brands and huge followings that only help the growth of your sport. Right, right. No, I agree. I was going to say, what do you guys think the bridging of the WNBA and NBA has been recently? Is it, like, a good thing for you guys? Do you feel like you guys are still, like, kind of silenced a little bit by the NBA, or is it just, like. It's helpful to the game. Like, I think Kobe's been really helpful to the WNBA. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how you guys feel about it, though. Yeah, no, interestingly enough, like, I mean, he's a perfect example. He was a loss to everybody. Insane. Yeah. I don't know if people really understand how much of a loss he was to the women's game because of how much he supported it. I think we were seeing glimpses of it, of course, as Gigi was, like, about to start playing and stuff like that, but he was always there coming. You know, supporting all these different things, and I haven't ever felt like the NBA has ever been a hindrance. You know, we've only been supported, even down to our unions, our respective players' associations, and I think as we evolve, it's important for us to maintain that relationship because we are growing forward together. But ultimately, I do think that the success of the WNBA is maturing and realizing that we are distinct, but then we also share a lot of different things in the same way. So I don't know what that necessarily looks like. We are our own league, but we also have our brethren who have supported us and are foundational to our success. And so, you know, even something as simple as being on this platform here with Matt, like, that's a bridge. There's going to be things that we talk about that we can relate to. There's going to be things that we talk about that might be different, and anybody who follows either one of us. Follows the shop or the NBA, the WNBA, is going to draw from that. So I think, like, something as simple as just sharing platforms between leagues and between players makes a huge difference in a way that we may not, may feel nuanced, but is really building at a foundational level. Yeah. You've been the president of the WNB, I mean, WNBPA for 10 years, right? Yeah. What do you feel like are, like, your greatest milestones or accomplishments as being president? Uh, I mean, I think. Because the game has changed so much in those 10 years, so I imagine that you were very pivotal in those discussions and different things behind the scenes. Yeah, I mean, like, when I first came in, I did not know what I was doing, you know? What year did you come into the NBA in general? So I came into the W in 12, and then I was elected president for my first term in 16. Okay. Yeah, so I was still pretty young. Yeah, yeah. But I had been on the executive committee for some years, and the president that I grew up under was Tamika Catchings, and so she recommended that I become president. And I was like, I don't want to. But she insisted, and I was like, I didn't want to disappoint her, I didn't want to say no, so I did. And my first aura of business was dealing with the fines that players were experiencing from standing up and having media blackouts when the police in Minnesota had killed Philando Castile in the car with his daughter and his girlfriend. And so that was kind of like me being thrown into the fire and trying to understand, not not just what was going on and what we represent as a league, but also how we operate. you know, as a union. And from there, then on, you kind of like build this muscle, you know, you, things happen. A lot of times people believe that we create these causes that, you know, we're ready for, but realistically things happen in the world and we respond in ways that we, you know, in ways that we know how, yeah, just naturally. So we had that. And then, you know, I think the next biggest thing really was, you know, the bubble season, Black Lives Matter, Say Her Name, we dedicated to that. And then also internally, we had to ask for 100% of our pay, which was huge and not just huge for us, but huge historically as women asking for 100% of your pay in a world where equal pay is, you know, not a thing. But I think that all led to what perhaps is maybe the biggest accomplishment of our union is this last CBA, being able to like transform it and get several hundred percent times what we've ever been paid before. It's truly unheard of. And I think it's going to be something that really shoots us into the stratosphere and the future of this league as the talent grows. So the value will as well. So yeah. And there's what, 15 teams in the WNBA, right? Yeah, there's currently 15. I think by, is it 30? There'll be 18. Well, next is Cleveland. Next. I don't remember the order, but it's Cleveland, Detroit, and Philly, I believe. Detroit WNBA team. Boy, oh fucking boy. They're coming back. They're coming back. They had a team already? Shock, right? They were in there. They were in the shock, yeah. I remember the logo, but I'm like, I can't. Bill Laimbeer was the coach. Yeah, yeah. That's why I stopped. No, I'm joking. Yeah, it'll be fun. Yeah. If you could pick somebody to play two-on-two with in the NBA, who's your teammate? If you got to win the whole thing. Oh, I have to win the whole thing? Who you got? Dang. Who you got for the W? Like ever? Yeah. There can be four more or current. Go ahead and say it. Go ahead and say it. Go ahead and say the evil man. KG is my favorite NBA player. He was mean to me, man. How you want to make KG evil? I know it sounds mean, but that's why I loved him. He did not give a damn. Like, I think he's so funny. Yeah, he's top of the Chicago's. I love him. He's funny, but he's authentic. Yeah. Then he played high school basketball in Chicago. He did. He did. Very good. KG, but I would honestly also pick Kobe. Valid. Because, like, he's just a killer. I mean, you know. I know. Yeah. Who you running with? Oh, man. She got two picks. I'm going to take Cynthia Cook. Cooper for one. And then I'm going to go current. I'm going to go. I'm a big fan of Paige. I've been following Paige. I love Paige. That's a good pick. And I like that she's a dog. I like that she speaks her mind. I like she stands on business. And she can play. Right. That's all about hooping at the end of the day. Y'all watch, like, these one-on-one things and stuff that have been going crazy online? I mean, I see it. It's just such a weird time. I love that Pat Beverly had to go inside. And I don't even know who Oprah is. Shut Nas down. It ain't Nas. Yeah, but it's just, like, I feel like. And in professional sports, people think they see it. I could do that. I think it's sweet. I could do this. Yeah. No, bro, you can't. Like, people don't understand. There's been less than 5,000 people to ever play in the NBA. I'm not sure how many women have got a chance to play in the W. The NFL, like, if you make it to a professional, like, it's the top of the top. And I feel like we live in such a society where it's cool to disrespect. So, oh, I could do that. Or the last guy on the bench is weak. Like, no, the last guy on the bench is not weak. Yeah, not at all. Why do you think people think that? Like, why do you think. Just because they ain't got nothing else to talk about. It's people. People are crazy. I think that, but also I think everybody has played basketball against somebody who's made to the NBA. If you played basketball long enough, and you're like, well, he was all right, you know. And you think because of that time you played him when you were 14 years old that you're now all of a sudden, like, so fucking nasty you can do whatever. And you don't realize he was only going 10%. Bro. Because he didn't tell you out there. Like, a lot of times you play with league players. If you are playing, they're not going their hardest for you, fam. I get paid for this for real. Stop playing with me. Stop playing with me, fam. It's just cardio. We call it cardio. That's what I'm saying. Like, stop playing. Going up and down. Right. Yeah. But I'll bust a whole bunch of league niggas or something. You know what I'm saying? Me, who before. I'm like that. I will say, Steve, look at who. That's probably the only person I could admit openly that is a celebrity that is better than me at basketball. Him, and I'll give you guys a random one. Robin Thicke is fucking nasty. Robin Thicke is right in the pool. I've never heard this. Robin Thicke, like, 6'5". Bro, he was the first Luka Doncic I ever met. Oh, I know who he is. That nigga wasn't nasty. I just didn't know he could hoop. Me either. Nasty. Really? He could play, too. Brother, nasty. Like, to the point where it was like, it didn't make sense. It was like, who's, you know, 40-year-old white guy. He's like 6'5". He is? I ain't no Robin Thicke. How tall is Robin Thicke? 6'4". He met him when he was 12. He's 6'9". Shut up. I hoop that nigga, like. He's 6' even. 6'5 is tall. 6'5 is a real height. Huh? He's not 6'1". I told you. I told you. He played him when he was 12. I'm 6'1". He's taller than you. I thought he was really so big at the time. He's nasty, though. That's funny, though. I feel like a whole bunch of NBA, like, celebrity fans or people who, like, believe, like, oh, I'm in this NBA thing. Do you feel like there are a whole bunch of female celebrity fans who can actually play basketball as well? I've only heard of her hooping a little bit. Oh, she can play? I heard she can play a little bit. But I've never. I would love to know who you think, if you know any, if anybody has, like, let you know I hoop. I haven't, like, I don't think that I've seen anyone, like, with my eyes that I can say. And I haven't been on the scene enough to really know. But I do know, like, Aubrey Plaza loves to play basketball. She played for the Shrimps or something. Yeah, like, she loves to play. I think, in fact, one time, I want to say, I don't know if we were, like, at an All-Star game, and she was, like, doing runs, and she, like, tore her knee up, like, at the All-Star game. Oh, die hard. Yeah, yeah, she's going to die hard, yeah. I think it was, like, in Phoenix or something, because I saw her the next day, and she was, like, on a scooter. And I was like, dang. She was like, yeah, we had some runs or something like that. Had to get it. That's me for sure. That's a war wound. Yeah. That shit at the WNBA All-Star game, pickup runs. Like, what? You got to say. Yeah. Jesus. I'm trying to think if I've ever played. My sister was so much better than me when I was growing up, but she's older than me. I'm using that as an excuse. And then once I got taller than her, I was, it was, like, hard to beat me. Once I got, like, two inches on her, it was, I was a bucket. She a bucket of ass, too. She made a guy fall out of LA Fitness one time. That was fun. She was a guard. She played in high school, and then, like, started singing and got done. I was like, fuck it. Okay. Okay. Who's the greatest, I guess, for you two, then? Who's the greatest female or lady hooper that y'all ever hooped against? Y'all was like, God damn. This girl named Bree at Pan Pacific Park. Telling y'all the truth, man. Just a random? Bro, telling y'all the truth. Bro, Bree and Sam. I don't know. Listen. Where you at? Pan Pacific Park, Bree. You will know who you are. Yo, half-court shots, like, first Steph Curry I've ever seen in my entire life. We played on my sister's team. Was so nasty. Such a graceful game. She was 6'5". 6'9". She was 6'9". She remembers everybody 6'5". She was nasty, bro. She was nasty. That's all I can think about right now. Give me a second. I don't think it's. We played with a woman, to be honest, in a serious manner. I heard Lisa Leslie used to hoop at the UCLA runs, which is all NBA dudes, but I've never played with a woman in pickup. Brittany Griner said she would be boogie. She wouldn't. I thought she was high at her damn line. She was. Extra high. Proved that she was high at her damn line. I want to get just as high as you, but. I'm stuffing up. You can't. Who do you think you can fry? Like a dude? I'm just asking. If you got it, let me know. Go ahead. Call him out. We with it. Oh, boy. Here y'all starting to. No, no, no, no, no. I was going to give more credit to somebody. I don't know. I think it was Cappy. She was giving me work one time. Oh, Cappy? That's my dog. That's my. I grew up in Chicago. That was my only dog. She was tough. Yeah, Cappy was nice. She gave Sebastian Telford work on that video a long time ago. Remember, as a kid, I saw that and I was like, that's crazy. I was like, that was mine, though. I've never thought of that. Did you grow up playing with boys ever or mainly girls? I mean, like, only, like, practice dudes, like, but not, like, like, outside and stuff. No. So your first, like, when you were a kid, you played with. At what age did you play only girls? Like, when did I start playing? Yeah, when did you start playing basketball? When I was 11. Oh, you started late. I did. Damn. Yeah. Damn. Sorry to make you guys. Somebody encouraged you to get into the game? So, I, like, my parents. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. My parents are very active and, like, healthy people, and so, you know, my mom wanted us to be, like, well-rounded, and initially, I was a gymnast, and I was about to, like, become competitive, but then one day, I was trying to do some type of flip, and I almost got hurt, and my instructor was like, no, she has to stop. So, at that point, my mom's in education. At that point, she had a coworker that was like, hey, here's an application for AAU. So, I went to the gym, and then that was just kind of what it was. I was, like, playing, like, YMC rec, and then, like, playing in my middle school team, but then when I went to AAU, that's, like, when I really started honing my skills. And I kind of narrowed it down to, in the back, we were talking about how you play different sports. So, like, I was playing basketball and volleyball, and I ran track as well. I dropped track early, and then I played basketball and volleyball, and that's kind of what it was. And I played for the same AAU program. No way, man. Played against girls. I mean, when I played against dudes, it was really just in high school. Well, like, my first year, I wasn't living in the school district, so I couldn't be on varsity. So, I was on the freshman team, or I was on the junior varsity team. And then, in high school, you know, I had the varsity team. We would always play against, like, the students. The sophomore, the dudes had a sophomore team. So, we would always play against, like, the sophomore team, and that was kind of, like, my experience playing with dudes. And then, of course, you have practice players in college and stuff like that. You knew you were good early? I just played every sport. I played football, basketball, baseball, and track, and went from sport to sport. And football was my best sport. Basketball was probably second, but just kept getting taller and didn't really see nobody. You know, you got to see it to believe it. I didn't see nobody as big as me on the football field, and figured they'd probably hurt me. What was your position? I was a receiver. I was an All-American receiver, led the nation in touchdowns. Like, I could really play football, but just, you know. Talk your shoe. You know, crossed over in college and really had to work. really grind to make the league, but football was natural for me. That was my first sport. I noticed that, yeah, I mean, you were telling me this a little earlier, but I noticed you did all the smoke baseball now, too. Yeah, man. What made you want to, I'm a big baseball fan. Me, too. I feel like black people, we ain't enough of us in baseball. Growing up in the 90s, there were black players. A ton of them. Yes, there's a void for black players, and I think, I always say that MLB realized they could get black people by just building farm systems in the Dominican Republic, I think, without getting black or American black people in America, which I think helps the sport a whole bunch. I've been very happy to see you do this, but what made you want to do this? Just kind of understanding what our demo is, and our demo, no matter what we really talk about, is kind of nostalgia, so 80s, 90s, 2000s, and that, to me, was the best time in baseball. People always wanted to put a, the steroid era was the steroid era. It was fun. Greatest. It was fun, wasn't it? That was the only time I ever remembered people rushing home from school or practice to watch games, you know what I mean? So I just wanted to try to be able I mean, so I just wanted to try to be able to shine some light on that time and be lucky enough to sit down with people that I looked up to and acted like I was outside being. You know, Ricky Henderson was my favorite player, rest in peace. I wore 24 in Little League. Man, I just sat down with Kevin Mitchell. You know, I sat down with Jose Canseco's crazy ass. I'm able to sit down with these dudes I grew up and had posters of, you know, on my wall. Dion playing both sports, and Gary Sheffield, Darryl Strawberry, all these guys that were just legends to us growing up and why we played baseball when we were younger. So, you know, shout out to my guy, CeCe Sabathias, the homie, and kind of just we feel the niche that I feel like they didn't have. You know, we just brought a different energy. We brought that all the smoke energy and authenticity and ability to tell stories to the baseball space, and it's taken off like wildfire, bro. All the players probably have been super happy about it. They've been super cool and wanting to, and really, too, again, with the nostalgia era, we're talking about an era that didn't have social media, that didn't even have the internet. So these guys would get painted one way and never got to tell their story. And that's the funny thing when I sit down with these OGs. These motherfuckers can talk. Be ready. I've been waiting. I'm like a little kid just sitting there listening to stories, trying to keep the conversation on track, but it's dope to be able to give these guys a platform to kind of come and say their piece. You know, particularly for Kevin Mitchell, this is going back, back, 85, 86, you know, when he's with the Mets that win the World Series, and obviously it's well documented that Darryl and Doc Gooden had some trouble with some extracurricular drugs and Kevin was painted as a scapegoat. So since 85, he's been having this on his shoulders, and I asked him, I'm like, bro, is it hard to kind of live with that false narrative that you were the reason why these two star players got on drugs? Because that's what they painted him as, and he's just like, man, it's been really hard. And I'm finally able to kind of meet people and they see me and then talk on stuff like this. Like, I've never got a chance to kind of tell my side of the story, and that kind of shit makes me super happy. So the baseball piece has been, man, a huge blessing. We're in talks with MLB to kind of make their relationship stronger. We've signed some amazing talent to start building more shows around the space, and I'm really excited to be in the space. I want y'all to go ahead and interview Barry. I already did. Oh, you did? I didn't see that one. We sat down. He's the greatest to me. Me too. You know, what was interesting too was, you know, when we got him, we got him at All-Star in Frisco. Was that two years ago? NBA All-Star in Frisco. And I was talking to his daughter and, like, they kind of, and I think his whole thing was, you know, with obviously with the PD painted picture, they didn't want to hear from him or people didn't love Barry. I'm just like, motherfucker, we love your dad. We love your dad. We want to hear from your dad. And he came out and talked and was funny and charismatic and kind of told his stories and, you know, now I'm happy. Obviously it wasn't us, but I think we showed him that there was so much love for him. Now you see him on Netflix baseball doing more stuff and talking. Like, we need our legends to talk. And, I hope he ends in the Hall of Fame. I'm super happy. He's got to get there, man. He has to get in the Hall of Fame. It's crazy that he's not. I mean, if you look at it before he's accused of whatever they He has a Hall of Fame career. He already had a Hall of Fame career before that. It was like Kobe's career. Like, literally it's two different careers, both. And someone told me, I mean, there's, I interviewed a writer because I was at the All-Star, MLB All-Star in Philly this year, and I interviewed a writer, Jeff Passon, I think his last name is. Excuse me if I butchered that. He's like, there's a lot of pieces of racist piece of shit and just pieces of shit in the MLB Hall of Fame, and you want to hold this stuff where guys were never actually in trouble for anything. Like, they never were found. There was no test, no nothing, but you want to hold that against them, but you let people with poor moral values and racists and all this other shit into the MLB Hall of Fame. So, to your point, I think there's a handful of guys, there's a lot of guys that should definitely be in the Hall of Fame because to me, as a young fan of baseball, that was the best time of baseball I've ever seen in my life. It was. I think you need black people to sell anything. So, from that perspective, that's the trajectory you can't go up without us. We determine what's cool. So, from that, I'm like, you lost a lot of your core and the idea of growth when you try to push black people out. I agree. But, you know, it's baseball. What are you going to do? It's America's. Yeah. I think the sport's changed so much recently with the pitch clock. It's made games so much faster. Yeah, yeah. And a part of me, like, I like that when I'm going to, like, a regular season game, but in the playoffs, like, brother, turn that shit off. Let me be there for four hours. Like, I don't want to feel like I'm leaving the game in two and a half hours. Like, I came here for lunch and dinner, dude. I didn't come here just for one meal. That's how C.C. Sabathia talked about this. He was saying he actually loves the pitch clock and that he thinks that it's hard to compete against other sports when you know that those other sports, the NBA, you're going for two hours, two and a half hours to watch a game versus you got motherfuckers there for six hours. I don't want to be there for six hours in the heat. I want to be there five hours in the heat. That's tennis, though. Tennis the same way? I hear you. I'm just saying baseball. I don't know. It'd be. People already think it's kind of boring when they're, like, they're watching. I bet the game is fun, but if you're just watching it, it's like, if I watch it on TV, I'm watching it for how long? Yeah, this is actually something I was talking to people about. Like, there's, like, I feel like baseball's better in person. Yeah. It is. I feel like NBA's better on TV. Hockey's better in person. I feel like WNBA's better in person. Hockey's way better in person. I feel like hockey's better in person. I haven't been to a WNBA game in a long time. I think WNBA is better in person. Person, yeah. I think NBA's better on TV. Last time I went to a WNBA game, I talked about it on here, it was a $32 ticket for a floor seat. Oh. How long was this? It was a long time ago. Oh, I had to be eight or nine years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Little Romeo performed at halftime, you know what I mean? Little Romeo performed at halftime. I understand where we were at. He was still Little Romeo. Yeah, that was a while ago. I feel like what's most special about the W in person is the fans' energy. I feel like the electricity, I got a chance to go to some Aces games, I've actually been to some Sparks games, but the energy is different at a W game than it is at an NBA game. Yeah. It's almost like an NBA, it's almost like a playoff type energy for a regular season game. Yeah. And I love that. I hate to go this week. I'm going to go this week. Wait, when's your next game? They're off right now. Well, we don't play again at home until the 20th. I'll be there. You'll see me. Alright, cool. You think I won't be there? He ain't going, y'all. You want to bet? He lied right here on the show. Didn't even have to do that. I'll be there, I swear to God. They're going to volunteer a lot, won't they? Scam. If you had full control, both of you guys had full control of the NBA and the W, 24 hours, what's the first decision you're making? Dang. Man. Rob the biggest one. Rob the biggest one and get that money going again. Full money, baby. Man. I think my first thing would have been, and I'm glad they finally came around, is take the, stop penalizing guys for smoking weed. I think that was an easy one because that was really a. They don't do that anymore, right? Not anymore. Not no more. So that would have been my first. 24 hours, what don't I like? Man, these referees are fucking terrible. So we got to do something about referees. Oh, man. Thank God someone says it. Sometimes it's really frustrating because as a fan, you can't do nothing on your couch. But when I'm at games, I'm talking to refs. I talk to refs and I like, first I'll start off like being a nice guy and I'm like, what the fuck is going on, bro? I think I have, I've always had an issue with refs, but then I try to flip the script being a little bit older. Like, it's got to be so hard to be a ref. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I was like, they're people, guys. Some of the greatest athletes in the world were moving at such a fast pace with strength and ability and skill set and you got to make a split second, you know what I mean? So it's just like, I wouldn't want to be it, but they suck. Also, like, to me, you're going to miss some calls. You're a human being. Is the answer to going to AI or going to technology where you let them? No. Exactly. So then human beings are going to make mistakes here and there. Part of me thinks it's part of the game. I actually enjoy the human error. But it's hard in the playoffs so that human error costs millions of dollars, jobs, contracts, careers like in the playoffs. But to your point, like, what is the alternative? You know, you see baseball now using those AI boxes where you can challenge the call or, not necessarily AI, but just you see the pitch and it's a ball or strike you can challenge calls, but it's just it's hard, man. It's a tough position to be in as a professional ref. Do you think the legalization of, like, batting on sports in a way has hurt or helped the game in that way? I mean, I don't know how much, I can't tell you how it affects the game necessarily, but it definitely, like, affects fan engagement online, like, for the players, sure. Like, I mean, like, we have a whole we have a whole program, like a bullying social media program really because mostly of that and also because of the things that you were mentioning about racially charged you know, interactions with people but it really does affect like, players have had to there's people that are banned like, players, like, security has to get involved so much because of all this betting on sports. That's why I don't bet, bro. You know, in the W people, from what I understand, people love betting in the W because players are very consistent in the W so, like, that's what I've been that's what I've been told and I'm like, ah, man like, it's just, it's just tough. I stay far away from all of that. Part of me, not to say this, hope is not a thing. Part of me would feel like it would make more sense for WNBA players to battle games and to be caught up in this mess that the NBA players are because they're making so much more money. You're like, why would you even be better? Why would you risk it? I can understand. You'd be like, I got to flip this shit. I am done. But the NBA thing, I'm like, I'm confused, brother. What are we doing here? Because it never weighs out. Like, bro, you're making a couple hundred thousand for you and the homies. It's like, bro, you're making $20 million in the NBA. And you're going to get $30 million in the next contract. What are we talking about? That's why you don't gamble on them, bro. They got problems like everybody else. But, like, when I saw that happening, I don't know. For me, like, I love thinking about kind of like maybe the reason why. I don't know. Maybe you can answer this a little bit better. But is it about the money? I feel like it's more about the rush. Like, the rush. I feel like that was when I saw that come out, I was like, oh, no. When they say that, like, addiction is a disease, like, to me, that was the thing. That was the first time where it really clicked. I was like, oh, this is kind of what they mean. Because, like you said, like, what are we really – it's not for the money. It might be for the thrill. It might be for the rush. It might be for the power. Because also if you think about, like, us as athletes, like, they'd say all the time, like, we die two deaths. And so maybe you're leaving out of this world where, like, everything was literally at your fingertips, and that might give you that feeling of power again, you know? I don't know. These are just the things that I was speculating on. It could be. You got your – You got yourself into some outside shit, maybe in a poker game at an obscure mansion somewhere, and you got to try to do some shit and make some shit. I haven't even seen enough money on that side of the wall to be like, oh, I understand – or he was in something. It's been, like, 50 bands, 100 bands, where I'm like, bro, you are getting – If you want – You know, I'll use the one person whose name has been – that was Malik Beasley who got caught up on this stuff. It's like, okay, you're a shooter. The NBA, they could have used you a lot last year, and you were – But he was about to get some bread, so I'm saying you're going to get real money. And I'm like, oh, you did all this for 100 or 200 – like, that's kind of confusing, man. You could have just signed some jerseys or some fuck shit, brother. You'd have been all right. No, not for Malik Beasley. I can say that, though. You got to be realistic here. But, yeah, maybe the thrill – I guess the thrill of it, I don't gamble on sports just because I know I have – Too much unknown. Yeah. I don't think people talk about – I was talking about this on another show. Like, they expect us as athletes to be superhuman, and play through everything. Like, loss of – I lost my mom while I was playing. I got divorced while I was playing. I've had children while I was playing. I've been sick while I was playing. Like, a lot of shit has gone down. I've been caught in my way, way prior to life. I've been caught cheating while I'm playing, and it's just like, you don't know, to your point, what the fuck is going on in everyone's head and what's going on to be like, man, he's just not here tonight. But I bet my mortgage this month on this game is crazy. And then I'm mad because you lost, and then I'm yelling at you, but I'm at home dealing my own shit. Fuck you. Fuck you. I want to go back to the question about 24 hours at the WNBA. Oh, I mean, okay, yeah. So I would say, especially after coming off of these negotiations, like, assuming we're in the position to do it, create some type of pension plan. That's probably the first thing I'd do. What do you guys get – what's your guys' health care plan? Nasty? Damn, she didn't even answer. It's not. Because I want to say, like, I think at eight years, nine years, I don't know the exact, but we get health coverage for life. And our families. We're not anywhere near close to that. Yeah, because some people can mess. We're trying to get the one more year to make sure. Yeah. We're not anywhere. We just got to, like, reimbursement up to a certain amount. Like, it's not – That's crazy. It's not great. If nobody else, I feel like with, you know, you guys being some of the first employees, so to speak, you should have stock. You should have equity. That should be something that you fight for. It's got to be something. Because you're building – we're watching you build a league versus, like, this is the ABA, the merger. Okay, we watch these leagues. Okay. It's not the same thing. Yeah. We watch these things that have grown these things enough that you're like, that's mine. I own that. But, like, it sucks because the WNBA plays. If you're not paying me enough, then what's my back end look like? Yeah. And also, too, like, to put things into perspective, like, we're in this era where, like, for example, we are more – we're further ahead than where the NBA was 30 years into their league. But, like, when you talk about the legend of the game, they're, like, sitting courtside. Like, they are – you're there there. And I don't think people really understand that, yes, we have history, but, like, it's not that far off, you know? No. Yeah. And we're still living in a world that they built. And so to not be able to give back in a more meaningful way, to me, maybe it's because I was raised on a lot of those legends. Like, it makes me feel a type of way. There should be something. Yeah. And obviously, because our game is older, like, there's guys that roll, roll, roll players now that are making more in one contract than they used to. And superstars made their entire career. And Hall of Famers, top 50. Tobias. Tobias Harris has made more money than Tobias. Yeah, so it's just, like, to me – I do like Tobias. To me, there's got to be some kind of give back, meaningful give back. Yeah. You know, whether incorporating them in the league and finding ways for them to get money. Same – I remember I was talking to – was it Cynthia Cooper or Swearer Cheryl? Like, these girls, I mean, what, they won the first four championships. Coop was MVP. It's just, like, but they weren't making for a long time. I mean, I know the fan fans know, but you guys, you guys were double-jobbing it. You guys were playing your league, the W, and then you guys would go over water for, what, seven, eight months. And trying to make ends meet. So it's just, like, there's got to be some kind of middle ground where these leagues, you know, obviously once the W continues to build and make more money, but I know the NBA is making money hand over fist. There's got to be ways to kind of give back to the people that kind of helped put this on the map. Yeah. How happy are you to not have to go overseas? Or do you miss the actual connection, like, culturally, like, being able to, like, take those things in there? I mean, I think at this point in my career, like, I'm very grateful that I don't have to do that. And I will say, though, however, I didn't willingly stop. You know, I stopped the year before COVID, or I guess the year of COVID. You know, I was actually signed to go play back in China. I was supposed to go back when COVID kind of happened. And since then, I just created this new system, new way of operating by not going overseas. And then, of course, you know, with the branding, I was able to supplement with so many different appearances and brand partnerships, which is really great. And the investment in women's sports kind of coincided with that. So it's really, it's a blessing, you know, in a lot of ways. But there's players, I think some people don't realize, too. Like, for example, I was talking to my teammates, and going overseas, it's not punishment. It's not punishment. I don't want people to view it that way, especially as we kind of enter this stage where we have a global perspective, I mean, we see the NBA, and we see how international it is. It's happening in the W as well. I think they said about eight out of the 12 women on the French national team are playing currently in the WNBA. And so I don't ever want people to feel as though that it was punishment. It was hard, don't get me wrong, having to play 12 months out of the year. But it also made me better. Damn, 12 months out of the year. Fuck, sorry. I don't know why I didn't do the game hard. That's what's special about it. I can speak for my mentor. We really enjoy our four months off. I really enjoy our four months off. First, mentally and physically, just relax and kind of woosah. But you get to travel. You get to hang with family. You get to do other things. You guys never get the chance to. You're going from one, okay, let's go jump like this. Okay, overseas, and then let's go jump back to the depth. So it's just like, where's the break mentally and physically? Yeah, I mean, definitely mentally and physically, it was a lot. But then, as I was saying, I was talking to my teammates, and there are some players, for example, who probably don't get a lot of burn in the league now. And they're excited about it. They're excited about going overseas because they get to play basketball. And so that enhances your skill. Hopefully, it gets you a better contract in the W the next year. So it kind of works in pair pursue in a lot of different ways, especially with all the opportunities that we have as women. There's so many different ways that we can make money. But then there's also other opportunities to play and do what we love and not just be siloed into if you don't make one of these 156 spots, then you're never playing basketball. You know, that's not a lot of people. Yeah, Jesus Christ. Yeah. What was the fans? What were the fans like in other countries? Were they more intense? Were they like, what was the camaraderie like? I would say like the I would say the fans are very invested when it comes. I would I would equate it to the same way that people are passionate about, like their college teams is very similar. But the energy is is comparable to if you've ever been to, like, a soccer game. Yeah, it's kind of like that type of energy. It's not like it's not like basketball arena energy in America. It's very much more like club sport energy. Yeah. NBA arena energy is so weak compared to over the water. I mean, they're like, yeah, smoking in that thing. One of my sons, well, they both got to play. But one of my son there, my twins are their mom has Mexican hair. So we got them a dual citizenship. So one of my sons played for the FIBA team this year in the in the qualifiers were in Mexico. They were beating the drums and singing and jumping and chanting the entire game. And we were getting our ass kicked every game. Yeah, the score doesn't matter. Yeah, but they were just so invested in it. It kind of like I had a respect for it. Like, I'm half Italian. I got a chance to I had an offer when I was playing with the Lakers to go play for the Italian national team. And I just turned it down because, again, I enjoy my summers. But to never get a chance to experience but to travel after I'm done and see the way culture around other sports. over the water, it's night and day compared to here. Yeah, I don't understand why fans – We're spoiled here. We're spoiled, but also I think the price of the tickets, too. You got to think, Dodgers have a bunch of people. The tickets aren't that expensive. It's loud at a Dodger game. At a Lakers game, bro, it's quiet as fuck. And then if you are yelling, everybody's like, why is this guy yelling? Yeah, the Lakers game is who's there, what you wearing, look who's in the front row, like who's – The worst. Heat game? Yeah. Never been to a heat game. Heat game is just waiting to go out. Like third quarter, hey, third – He's waiting to go outside. Third quarter, like the start of the first six minutes of a heat – Watch – now that I'm telling you, just watch the start of the second half. There ain't nobody in the stands. Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah, wait until like end of the third, fourth quarter. They'll come back. But, yeah, that's the one thing I noticed in Miami. Like it's just a different vibe here in the States, yeah. I go to a lot of games, and I get in trouble. I usually get those like – that card that they give out when you yell too much. It's like an NBA card. They'll like come over and drop it on your seat to be like, hey, shut the fuck up. Oh, really? They have one of those? He be going through all types of shit. But what you start noticing constantly is he's the problem for sure. They give you a card that says shut the fuck up? I've never seen this. I've never seen those out. It's like a conduct. Never knew that. Act correct, whatever. But is it like – but you're cheering for the team, no? He already said he'd be talking to refs. Did you not hear him earlier? I made friends with one of those – I thought that was crazy. What's the black one? What's the black old dude's name? Tom. Are you cool with him? Oh, he's different. I like him. He's cool. He's cool. Yeah. Bro, they came up to me one time at a game. They were like, man. We're big fans of the show you're on. I was like, oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. And then I started talking to them. All right, enough of that shit. Enough. Rest out. Rest out. Well, because you got to think, they're already getting cussed out by us. Like, if you sit courtside and hear some of the stuff we say to refs – I remember Vi the Palmer, when she was kind of breaking when just getting in as the first female ref, the shit that she got said to her, oh, my God. It was crazy. So it's just like there's no way they're going to take it from fans when they hear it from us, like, constantly. I would pay an extra $4,000. I would pay an extra $4,000 a year to hear what players say on the court to my NBA. I would pay so – Isn't that just what a courtside seat is? Yeah, but what I'm saying is if I'm, like, talking about NBA – Like, you want a feed. Oh, yeah. If I'm watching at home, I want – like, to watch an Olympic game now on YouTube, next time you have some time, watch the Olympic game from 2008, USA versus Spain. There is no announcing. There's no music. And it's just silent. If you turn it up loud enough, you can hear every word on the court. It's genius. People talk crazy. KG now. That's what you want to hear on the court. That's the sport I love. I love, bro. That's the best player they do on the court. I love. Absolutely. I'm a fan of him just the little bit that I heard. It's the best. But you know what's funny, though? Like, that's why we hate getting mic'd up. Oh, yeah. Like, we do not like getting mic'd up. They stop mic'ing you. You a shit-talker? No. No, no, no. I'm not, but I be talking to myself. Okay. And so, like, I'll say some things or, like, you know, if something happens on the court, like, I'll react, but I'm only talking to myself. But a lot of times, too, like, when you get mic'd up as a player, all you do is you just cuss a whole bunch, and then they can't use anything. Yeah. Well, I always tell people I'm working with the feds, but I used to, it's funny, like, when I retired with TNT and ESPN, I'd have people come, bro, you were so funny, but you cussed too much. That's why I had to stop mic'ing you up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't, they can't broadcast it. It'll be like, if someone like him is mic'd up, they'll be like, yeah, like, you know, like, how they, like, do those. The tiny soundbites. Let's go, teamwork, teamwork, teamwork. Just, like, him clapping a little bit, like. Who are the players like him? Like, when he, like, yeah, like, the Ron Artest, the, the, the, the, the actual Matt Barnes. Oh, in the W? Yeah, like, who are the players that use that head? DT is definitely up there. DT is up there. But she is, like, very clever. So the stuff that she says sometimes. Above, over the head? Yeah, you don't realize it until a little bit later. I kind of get, like, repossession is down. Like, wait a second, you're, like, in the shower, like, dang. God, like, that was good. Uh-huh. Very smart. I kind of feel like, what's her name? I keep forgetting. Sophie Cunningham is similar to a three and D. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She takes people out when needs to be. I think she's kind of a three and D. Like, she's kind of caught my attention from a standpoint of just, like, she don't take no shit. She, she plays hard when she plays. I don't know how, how much she's liked or disliked in the league, but I kind of felt like she's kind of like a, a, a feather ruffler, you know, in the league, so. You need that. Definitely. You need that. You need the villains like you need the good guys. You do. You need the villains. You need the good guys. Speaking of villains, uh, how much do we hate, uh, Ennis Cantor, Ennis Freeman, and these Royce Mikes? Exactly. I like, I like that response. I'm with you. I think there's a way to be supportive and, and support the women, and I also think there's a way where I don't have much attention. Let me try to get some attention. I feel like that's what both these dudes have been doing. What I'm hearing is they're using the W as a platform? 100%. Okay. Yeah, I don't, I, I think there's a way to, you know what I mean? Uh, Royce White, unfortunately, he had some kind of situation where he didn't like to fly on planes, so. Never heard of his name until this fight. But he was talented. He could play. No, he just didn't want to fly. He was talented, but he just couldn't fly, and, and that didn't work out. Cantor was good, too, but he was always in some shit, but I just think, like, the route they're going for, to me, it's just an attention grab. Yeah. And it's ridiculous, you know what I mean? I think, and you touched on it, you didn't say this, but we're making issues about stuff that's not really an issue in their league. Facts. And the media's trying to make that shit an issue, and it's not an issue. Trans women in the league, or men that are women, it's not a real issue. So I think that they're trying to push the line, and I think it was less standing up for the women, and more like, okay, here's an opportunity for me to get some, for people to say my name. I don't think any of us, or at least, I definitely didn't think they were trying to stand up for women. I thought they were horrible people trying to simply get attention. I didn't want to talk about it at first, but in my head, I also was like, I wanted to give the opportunity to at least address these problematic things, because, you know, these people will try stuff like this. People will always try to ruffle feathers, or find those loopholes, and say, well, you didn't tell me I couldn't do this. And you're like, get the fuck out of here, fam. Like, you knew this wasn't, like, in his cancer for me, I feel like he became an American citizen, and started trying to embody. Showing his facts. Everything on the right side to be an American citizen. He was like, how racist can I get? It's sexist. And then he runs to Fox News and talks about it. Like, it's a whole ploy. Yes. Like, this shit is, to me, especially what Cantor's doing, bro, that shit is weak. It's all weak. I mean, it's just, it's a, look at me, you're a cry for some attention, bro. Like, find another way to get some attention, or just find something new to do. God damn. Just go somewhere, find a small corner, a dark small corner, use a flashlight, read a fucking book. Good. You're going to be all right. That part. Who do you think the face of the WNBA is right now? Has there ever been a definitive face of the WNBA? Lisa Leslie at one point. I think it was definitely a huge part. Tamika Catchings. Diana. Diana. That's where I see you. Diana was that for a long time. What do you think? I think it's Asia. Good call. Best on both sides of the ball for sure. What a fucking bucket. Two. Damn. I want to go to a WNBA practice just to see how my skills hold up. Oh, you're going to play? Not in some foul shit. I'm being dead ass serious. I just want to see, bro. And I don't think that I'm better than any of them at all. You just want to see what it's like. No, we didn't think that either. Damn. That was crazy. Why didn't you try to slap it in there? I think a lot of people say that in the span of like thinking because I'm a man, I can be better. No, I don't think that at all. Just to see. Just to see. I feel like there would be more respect because like you actually hoop, you follow the game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the one. It's the ones that are like, I can do that. I'm not coming there. Yeah, I'm not coming there on some disrespectful shit. Speaking of age, I'm rooting for her and Bam because I want to see them have a baby. Man, we got to have it. The ultimate. We got to have it. I want to see what that little boy, little girl is going to, because it's going to be a killer. Yeah. It has to be a killer. Yeah. I'm rooting for y'all for a bunch of other reasons, but that reason in particular. Face of the NBA? I think, obviously, Braun has been the face for so long. I think the torch is being passed and I think it's going to have to be multiple guys and so someone really jumps out there. Do you feel like it can't be an international player? Is that why? No, I don't feel like it can't be anybody. I feel like the faces right now are Wimby, Shea, Luka, Ant. Who am I missing? Jalen Brunson. Brunson. I know it's like a odd boy. I don't know if he's a face. I think he's one of the best players in the world, no question. I don't know if you would call him a face, but I think those four guys I just mentioned right there, Giannis, at one point you would think he was going to be. So I think the face of the league is by committee, but I don't think it's, you know, the international players. If you look at what American players it could be, it could be Ant, it could be Jason Tatum coming back off an injury, Brunson, but I think the face of the league right now is international and I think it's a group of guys until someone really like establishes their dominance in that space. I think it's going to be by committee. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it's going to be by committee for a while. I think Bron carried the torch for so long. That's what I'm saying, yeah. You know, Kobe was the face for a little bit. You know, Shaq had a little taste of it. Obviously MJ, but Bron. Bron ran with it for a long time and I was just talking to someone that like, my era is almost done. Like Bron, KD, Steph, Drayvon. Russ just retired. Russ has just left. CP just left. From my heart. The guys that I came in with and playing, like my era of basketball, I'm nine years removed, you know, but my era of guys that, you know, I went to war against, like there's probably less than 10 guys in the league. So it's just like, damn, like I'm getting old. I like that take though. You know, I mean, I feel like, as you say, like, you know, the torch, the torch is going to be in passing, you want to emerge something, someone's going to emerge from it. Do you think that it's more about, um, accolade? Is it, is it like a comp, a combination? I think it's a combination of just everything. I mean, if you look at what Bron embodied on and off the court, he embodied everything. I think Bron is the greatest superstar we've ever seen in any sport. Muhammad Ali, possibly, you know, Muhammad Ali is that conversation. But I think as far as what he did on the court or what he's doing on the court, what he's continuing to do off the court, I think he puts himself in a category. By himself. So it's just like, he's raised the bar so much, you know, we're all talking about all these guys just on the court, you know what I mean? But Bron was someone that was on and off the court with it. So it's going to be interesting to see who jumps out and to be honest with you, I don't know what plants that flag. Is it MVPs? Is it championships? Is it scoring titles? Defensive Players of the Year. I mean, I look at Victor Wiminyama, and I feel like he's going to be, I don't know who the last one was, but he's going to be the next MVP and Defensive Player of the Year. In the same year, yeah. It would have been the same year as Braun, but they gave Marc Gasol that Defensive Player of the Year for no reason. I think it should have been DeAndre Jordan that year, to be honest with you. Mike got it, what, 88? Yeah. Did Mike get both? Yeah, he got both. Okay, yeah. Damn, that's crazy. That guard is crazy. They did the research, though. I ain't going to hate on Mike from the show, but they did some research that the numbers were inflated a little bit. Yeah, he was having like four steals at home and one steal at home or on the road. They showed the video, said he had 12 steals in the game. Yeah. He had six. Wow. It wasn't even close. It was like, it would be one thing, but it was like, he had 11. You'd be like, okay, they missed it. But they do that, too. It was like at home. Assist records, the guys passing the ball were at home. They're averaging 13 on the road. They're averaging seven. Yeah. It's crazy. I think when you just said those five guys, I don't disagree with you. I think it is the committee, but I'm also like, is it that they can't be the face? And the answer can be no, but it's because you named four international guys. I think Ant is this American player that could be the face, but Ant's PR is not having PR, which is great. I love it. It's my favorite form of PR is being like, I'm just going to be me. But I think that stops him from being the ultimate face, too. No, because you've got to think about it until recently. Bron wasn't really doing PR. I think that Bron was still clean cut. He did everything right, so to speak. I think Ant just had a freestyle drop last week saying, Nike just took my dick or whatever. One thing I like about Ant and his team, his shoe, he's taking it back. I don't think it's as creative as it was when we were coming up, but remember, shoe commercials used to be the shit back then. They did. Penny, little Penny. He has done that again. I enjoy them. He's bringing energy back to selling shoes. I really like that about him, but that's a good point. I think there's off-the-court noise that if he stepped up and said something could possibly change the perspective, but I never thought about it that way. That's kind of why I feel like she's one soul. I'm just kind of like, how can she not be? But I like your perspective because we're in this era where you have Caitlyn, Angel, Paige, Olivia Miles. She's tough. And then you got Juju coming in. You got Hannah Hidalgo. It'll be very interesting in this world to see how that plays out. And also, too, maybe it doesn't have to be just one person as it evolves. But for me, I come from, I guess, more of the era where it's like, you can't just. You can't dispute winning. And that's why I scream to the mountaintops about Maya Moore. My favorite. To me, I think it's a crime that people are not talking about her still because I lived through that era. And it's not that she's been forgotten, but I'm like, we cannot forget her. But also, too, and I'm not giving them an excuse, but she didn't hit. Social media wasn't really booming around your game. No, I'm just saying around your game. Oh, that's true. That's true. Social media wasn't popping around your game. When she was winning national championships and W. Right. To me, she's like one of those what if Grant Hills. Although she didn't leave because she got hurt, but she just left before she. You know, she still had plenty in the tank for her reasons. But it's always like, damn, what if Maya would have continued to play? How many would she. MVPs would she have won? How many championships would she have won? Because she was killing. Yeah, she was. Yeah. And you're playing your last season right now, right? Yeah. How do you feel like you're going to process? That's the grief. You just said athletes die twice. Yeah. How do you feel like you're processing the grief currently? And how do you think you'll do it later on? I don't feel like I'm in grief. Valid? Yeah. Like, I feel like I'm fulfilled. I feel like I've said it before. Like, this season to me is like what I have left to pour into the game. I've always also been the type of person that's like, you're not going to drag me off the court. Like, I want to feel good about. I need my knees. Where I'm. You know, like, where I'm leaving, you know? So, I feel fulfilled. You know, it's exciting. If it were up to me, I would have done it after. But, like, I had other people that were like, no, you know. Announce it. Yeah, announce it before. So, I did that. And it is nice to receive, you know, the love. And also, I think what's most exciting about it is, like, seeing all of the people along the journey that are, like, coming back to, like, watch you and support you because, you know, I wouldn't be here in this position without them. So, I'm excited about it. I know it's a little early, but congratulations. Congratulations. Thank you, guys. Thank you. And, again, you're not only doing it on the court. You know, I'll say this. By being the president of the Players Association, that's dope, too. I mean, being able to just affect the game in so many different ways. I know your retirement, once you're done kicking your toes up in the sand, you're going to be able to find whatever you want to do. So, congratulations. Thank you so much. How did you deal with that grief? If you had it. I didn't necessarily. You know, we were actually talking about this before. I walked away while I still had two years on my deal because I wanted to be a dad. I wanted to be a dad. I went through a nasty divorce, and I had two twin sons that were kind of like, not dadless, but just I wasn't present. I was missing so many first games and teeth falling out and birthdays and all that kind of stuff. So, I walked away. You know, obviously, the perfect storm happened where I was able to jump on that Golden State team, win a championship. Some businesses started to pop at that point. I'm just like, all right, I put 15 in. You know, I did good with my money. I still get paid for another two years. So, I stepped away at peace. I would say there was only one time where I kind of got an itch where I went to Steph Curry's birthday, and Draymond was like, why don't you just come back one more year? And I'm like, it's March. I've been smoking and eating bad. It's going to take me a while to get in shape, and then you want me to come in and guard who? So, that was my one, like, should I? But for the most part, I was at peace. And fell into the media space, not knowing that I wanted to do media, fell in love with that, and then kind of never really looked back. You know, I can still be around the game, talk about the game, but I feel bad for people. And obviously, you're going to get to walk away on your own accord, so I know for sure you're going to have a different feeling when you leave. I walked away on my own accord. When you leave the game before you're ready, it's hard. And I know my brother, Steven Jackson, he left the game before he felt like he still had some more in the tank. So, even after he left, he went and played in the big three and did all this stuff and kind of, I don't really know day-to-day how he felt, but I just know sometimes when you leave before it's time, because we only get a small window, like 15 years is incredible, you know what I mean? But it's only a small. It's a small part of our lives, and it's everything up to that point that we work for. We worked our whole lives to get here and do what we're doing. So, when you walk away because of injury or blackballed or just people think you have nothing left in the tank, but you still feel you do, I think those are the people that struggle with leaving the game. And I think that's probably across the board. That's not just basketball. I think that's across the board. When you feel like you still have more in the tank, but teams don't think that, like, to me, that's probably people who struggle and are bitter and sad and develop those habits. All kinds of other shit that's going on because you didn't get to leave the game that you worked your entire life for, and now that door is closed. Cold world. Yeah. Cold. When you look back at the WNBA you entered in 2012, what's the biggest difference now versus then? Obviously, the money is huge and the coverage is huge, but what is it? Like, is there a camaraderie difference or? Yeah, you know. When it comes to, like, experiencing the team itself, you have players that are entering the league that have bigger followings than the team that you're playing on, you know? So the landscape is a bit different, and you have a lot of players, especially in this NIL world, they know a bit about the business before you get in. They have their established entourage and, you know, the system around them. And so I think there's. There's a different level of competitiveness when it comes to that, and one thing that I want us to not lose sight of that was very prevalent and truly non-negotiable when I first entered the league was keeping the main thing the main thing, and that's the basketball. You know, that's the basketball. You know, me and Matt were talking in the back about how, you know, you just had. You had vets that were like, hey, yo. Not doing that. You don't do that, you know? And it's not to say that we don't have vets that do that. It's not to say that now, or the example of you saying that how vets are like a bridge between the coaches and the players, like, that is huge as well. It's not that it doesn't exist now. It just feels different. And I also think, too, like, the way that the environment is based on, you know, people coming in with their own level of power and privilege, it's not as easy to be able to navigate that. You know, me having years on me may not make a difference. I'm a player that has 10 million followers, you know what I'm saying? And so maintaining the integrity of not just the sport, but the aspect of the player experience that relies on being a teammate, you know, being coachable, you know, those types of things, that to me is what I've seen is, like, the major difference. And I don't want to say that it's, like, good or bad. I just don't want us to lose what makes us us, you know? I think it's a privilege, too. Yeah. Yeah. I think, to your point, some of these players are coming in particularly on your guys' side. And even on the NIL side, college side of us, they're making more money than some late first-round picks, second-round picks, you know what I mean? So I don't want to see kids lose the hunger. Like, we had to scratch and claw. Like, it was a violation for me to get $100 in college. I mean, these kids are getting millions of dollars in college, and it's only natural to take your foot off the gas a little bit. Right. So I just think there needs to be guidance across this new landscape of sports, because, kids are getting handed what we had to work for. Not to say that, you know, I'm happy they're getting paid. Don't get me wrong because, you know, you have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than being a professional athlete. So this is a window where you're supposed to accumulate as much wealth as you can. I think there needs to be some more structure and more management with it. But for those who are lucky to make that next jump, understand who put the jersey on before you. Understand the privilege you have of being able to be in this fraternity that very few men and women get a chance to be in. And don't keep in the first thing first. But playing hard, like playing hard is a skill set now. That makes me disgusted. You know, playing hard used to be like it was a non-negotiable. You didn't play hard, you didn't play. So it's just like I feel like there's some slippage now because we're in a new area of kids getting money before they turn pro. And again, it's only natural because I know my first two, three, four years in league, every summer my bank account red light was on. Like, oh, shit, I can't wait for the first check. So I couldn't imagine being 16, 17, 18 with coming from where I came from, which was coming from nothing and my family needing money. Me needing money, not knowing I have to pay half of this back in taxes next year. So it's just like I think there's a lot of different things the kids have to navigate now that parents have to navigate now. But not forgetting how lucky you are and understanding like what comes with the honor you have of being a professional athlete. Yes. I thought this might be a bad take or a bad question, but it came up, stemmed off the end of that saying keep what's important or the main thing, the main thing, which is basketball. I was talking about this. There was a young lady that was on a team, I'll say last year or two years ago, as you were talking about keeping the main thing, the main thing. Part of me felt like how much as a company does WNBA like lean into or use social media and those different things? There was a young lady who was on a team and her socials was going crazy. I was seeing that everywhere. I assumed she was out here killing shit in my head. I was like, she must be averaging like 20. I'm seeing her everywhere. And now I went and she got cut out of nowhere. Like a week later, I went to her stats. She was averaging like, let's say our boy two points a game or something. I was like, damn, she wasn't actually scoring anything. But the team itself was getting so much awareness and all these different things based on her posting and socials and things. Part of me was like, oh, as you're still growing this league, that can be a healthy asset. The other side of me was like, keep the main thing, the main thing. You don't want to dilute it or blur what the focus is. But, you know, in my head, how much can you balance those things? To use that, too. Yeah, I mean, I think that there is a balance, you know. I think that keeping the main thing, the main thing is not just on the players. You know, I think that also when we're in this environment where women's sports is growing so much, we lose sight of, you know, why it's growing, you know, and what we want to grow from it. But at the end of the day, you're going to lose it. Don't look crazy if you cut a player that you were promoting like that, knowing that, you know, she wasn't getting that much burn. And that is also an aspect of, I think, the growing pains that we're experiencing. It's not just about, you know, players getting more money and managing that wealth and building that wealth. But it's also teams understanding how to manage the cap. We have a cap that's never been this big before. Like in our trade deadline this year, like there were maybe like two trades, you know, and I feel like that's also another aspect of like, OK. GM's got to get on their job to understand how to manage the cap in this new world in the same way where business ops has to understand, OK, what narratives can we push that aren't contrived, but that makes sense for our team while still also building the brand of the players individually and making it make sense based on the product that's on the court. And I think that example is very valid, you know, and when you get when you get lost in the perception of things, you end up with a Dajon Love. Is that his name? Yeah. You know, and so. We can't watch this right now. We can't be fraudulent. I love you. Honestly, I feel more comfortable giving him a platform than. Yeah. Well, what was that other guy's name? I don't know. I forgot it. Yeah. But yeah, that's a really good point. I think, too. I mean, we always said never let the outside noise be louder than the noise you're making on the court. That's good. Most of the time I was most of the time it was trouble I was talking about or we were talking about. But you never want the outside noise to be louder than the noise you're making on the court. Hmm. Absolutely. I have a random question. What is the worst basketball scene you've ever seen in a movie? Mine is double take, double take. No, double team. Wait, are you going to talk about when she did the travel? Yeah, that are you. Of course, you know, the fucking movie is like he told me, you know, that's also mine. I did. Yeah, that's also my cat. The story is. Have you seen Holly Berry dribble the ball up a wall back? Did you see that? Check it out. So the story and those sisters are real amazing. Yeah, they're real people. An amazing. But how they filmed that scene was diabolical. Yeah, it really was. I had never heard of this movie until you need to watch it. I said it. He was like, what are you talking about? I was like, double team, a really good movie. It was on Disney Channel and it was actually really good with real story, real, real sisters. I've met both of them even when they played the outside game one on one. She played against her boyfriend. That was so bad for the movie. It's a class. And I'm like, yeah, me too. Oh, that did bother me. I mean, it was it was clearly a travel way to film. It was clearly a trailer. Shoot it like switching her brain. That's the way I don't know movie. I just hate and I think they've obviously gotten better. But I hate movies that they they show the run up and then they show what the dunk is. And it doesn't match the run up. Yeah, yeah, I don't know what it is, but they're doing some crazy as Duncan. I was like, the run up wasn't nothing like it. No way he did that with the run up, you know, so I don't really. I think there's a lot of dope basketball movies. Actually, what's your favorite? I'm a Pac fan, so I probably have to say Above the Rim is probably my favorite. He Got Game is another one. What's the best basketball scene, then? Oh, see, mine says he got game that one on one, bro. At the end with Pops. There's so much. There's so many layers to that. That's great. I mean, I just I mean, that that that above the rim was dope. That shit was so dope on and off the court. Yeah, like a shot as random winning time recently. That was such a. Just. You saw what they were on. You saw behind the scenes around the rollerblades and everything. That was I didn't shoot this more like that was a great show. It was a great. Wow. They said it was really expensive, though. They said it was really expensive to shoot. And then I talked like I asked Magic about it. I was just like, a lot of this shit was made up for. We know Magic and Jerry West came out of that shit right away. It was like, yeah, it's like the way they shot it. What about the Clippers show? Clipped, clipped. Yeah, I mean, that was cool. You know, I mean, I, I initially was paid to be what you would call it. But when I. Consultant. When I kept redlining like this shit didn't happen like this, they kind of told me to shut the fuck up. Who asked you to shut the fuck up? So you did, Bob. OK, so it's interesting. That was cool. They're doing an untold on that team, too. Oh, really? Oh, yeah, that's fun. Not fun for real, but it's going to be good. I'm going to watch it for sure. I have a conspiracy about that deal. I think that, you know what I'm talking about? The Don Sterling deal. Go ahead. I think that if I'm. I don't know if it's actually true, but I think when you're forced to sell, you don't pay taxes on things. I don't know if that's 100%. But I feel like he was like, I'm going to sell this team, but I don't want to pay a billion dollars. OK, how do I get out of this? Be racist. Easy. Get forced to sell. He was. No, I don't think he. No, I don't think racism had been happening. I think he knew. I think he was a racist, but I think it was like an ability to be like, you know what, if we let this car leak and I have to sell the team. Oh, I don't know. I think they didn't want to sell the team. He didn't want to sell the team. He didn't want to sell the team and his wife didn't want to sell the team. No, his wife was still around after they sold the team. They still kept a piece from what? I was on that team. I was on the team when the shit broke. When we were playing the Warriors in the playoffs, we were in the Ritz or it was the four seasons in San Francisco when the shit dropped. And we had a team meeting with like all the shit you saw on Clip. Like we were like going through that shit at the time. It was crazy, bro. I was a season ticket holder right after and his wife's seats were next to mine. No, she's next. Literally, we're next to each other. She tried to talk to me. I'd be like, come on, baby, stop that. I'm not talking to you. And she was actually cool. I liked Shelly. She was so nice, but it was guilty by association. It was still hot at the time. Guilty by association. He ain't got time for this. His little mistress, like my ex-wife almost fought her in the family room because she knocked over, this is when the twins, little CP, little J.J. Crawford, all these little babies were little. And she knocked over one of the twins and just kept walking. And my ex almost had to put hands on her in the family, but no one liked her. She walked around with her purses. And that little face thing, right? Looking like a fucking motorcycle. She was only dressed like a Suzuki. She thought that this leak was going to put her in her 15 minutes and she was going pop. I'm glad nothing happened for her. And I don't wish bad on people, but she was just such a negative energy around everything. Talking about, this is my arena. This is my team. First of all, it's not even the Clippers arena. So how the fuck can it be your arena? I digress. Well, I want to thank you guys both for sharing your stories and your opinions. And I'm really excited for you to finish your career out. And I'm excited to be at the game on the 20th. You will see me, don't even worry. I'll get my tickets. Hey, courtsides are a lot higher than $32. Oh, I know, brother. I know. Saving up my money for it. I'm ready. But congratulations. Thank you. Yes. And congratulations to you for everything that you've done post-career. All the Smoke is one of my favorite podcasts. Thank you, dawg. It is the reason why I'm here most likely. Thank you. Thank you. I be doing real shit. For real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, man. Light skin. Proud of you, brother. Brother. Always. Thank you guys for coming. See you next Monday. Yeah. 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