(NL) Mesjogge - Harold Kokke en Anders Frederik Steen

This is a true crime roundup from the On Deadline podcast. We dive into crime stories reported on by Odyssey Radio newsrooms across the country. I'm your host, Lauren Berry. This week, we'll hear about a befuddling manhunt conducted in Kansas City. After the dead body of the man authorities were looking for, we'll sniffed out by cadaver dogs. Then, we'll touch on a case that reveals the new crime-solving possibilities that DNA analysis has opened up, and will break down the newest revelations in the Nancy Guthrie Missing Person case. Highway shootings in Kansas City this month led to a manhunt for the suspect, 22-year-old Oscar Sanchez-Munoz. But there was something strange about this manhunt. Authorities had apparently already found the suspect, and he was dead. Here's the Dana and Parks show out of Odyssey Station KMBZ in Kansas City reporting on the news this week. So we brought to you the breaking news update that the manhunt for Oscar Sanchez-Munoz who has been on the run for eight days since he drove down I-670 and I-70, firing his gun at multiple vehicles. He was also tied to a June 11 shooting. They have found a body in the basement of the first home. Of the burned out. Yes. So we thought that it was maybe a different home. We had no idea the KSHB story was not clear, but this is now clear that it was the same house. In the last couple of days, the manhunt was shot in the basement of the first home. The manhunt was shot in the basement of the first home. He was shot in the basement of the first home. If you're confused, you're not alone. Dana Wright and Sam Stevie tried to work out some of the facts around the case timeline here. Help me with the timeline here. Okay. The shooting happened on what date? It was the evening of June 16th as fans were driving into the World Cup. That's right. The shot was a new driver. One of those shot was killed. Homicidal maniac then goes on the run. That was the date of he goes to his brother's house and goes Joe Walsh. They followed him to the brother's house that evening. That operation 100 lasted into the late hours of the morning into June 17th. That's correct. Okay. At some point in the early morning hours, the house was set on fire. It's not clear. If he set it on fire, it was a blaze. I just want to be clear. They didn't took hours to put the fire out. Mass shooting was June 16th. Yes. Standoff, he got away. We can't find him. Fire was June 17th. The second standoff that they thought was a standoff at the Kensington Avenue property was the following day. Okay. At the picture, by the way, from the convenience store was from June 16th. Right. But here's why I'm asking this. And I think our listeners, if you're following along, he committed this crime on the 16th. Fire is on the 17th. So are you telling me that this entire manhunt and the second operation, 100 was absolutely for naught? Yes. Because he was dead the entire time in the basement in the original crime scene where the fire happened. It didn't really make a whole lot of sense to me that they were seemingly telling us that he was definitely in the home in the brother's home or his home. We're not sure. The one on Brookside Boulevard and then the bridge. There's no way they thought that the, there was a body in the house. They never would have released that house back to family members for the family members to find a body. According to the reporting, they were initially certain that he was in that home, right? And then he just somehow got out. How do you just somehow get out, right? Well, I think they all, well, maybe he set the house on fire and ran in a, in a cloak of smoke. But Sam, look, there's been a lot of resources put toward this thing. If he was dead the entire time in the initial crime scene in Independence, in the basement, covered in water and debris and no, we have death sniffing dogs that could have gone through that house. Do we not? Um, I'm not so sure that a dog would be able to really accurately sniff out a body among so much soot and fire and, and I mean, the fire extinguishing stuff that firefighters use also as a potent smell. Later in the week, more about the investigation was revealed, including the fact that cadaver dogs did reportedly sniff out a body in the basement. The case remains a bit befuddling as right and Stevie explore here. I am certainly asking our listeners, and I think everyone scratching their heads on this, and authorities, is it possible this is a case of having too many cooks in the kitchen? And let me read to you the update from the Kansas City star. The Kansas City Missouri Fire Department, follow me here because there's going to involve a couple of agencies here. The KC FD says it's cadaver dog alerted of a body one week before family members found the suspected highway shooter debt. That sounds very significant. As fire crews and investigators responded to a house fire in Independence, Missouri, June 16, where police were searching for a suspected gunman on the run, Kansas City Fire Department was called out as mutual aid. This happens all the time. An official say from Kansas City, a cadaver dog alerted them to possible human remains in the flooded basement of the home and quote, this information was shared with lead investigators before they left the scene. The dogs alert was most likely for the body of Oscar Sanchez, Munoz of Independence, whom police were searching for in connection to a series of highway shootings earlier that night that killed one and injured four law enforcement did not find Sanchez, Munoz's body that night. In fact, launched a week long manhunt that came up until Wednesday when family members reported they found a body in the same flooded basement police had already searched. The revelation appears to be a remarkable disconnect between responding agencies and a failure to follow up on this as an important lead. I would call it the lead to finding a person considered to be armed and dangerous. Hopkins says KCFD was asked to assist independence as well as local police in responding to the house fire on that day, June 16. Fire Department deployed its cadaver dog to help search. The dog alerted the handler to the basement of the home. However, fire crews could not go in any further. Quote, due to the significant amount of debris and standing water in the basement from the firefighters water, a physical search at that time did not result in locating any human remains. Basically, they were saying dog finds body says there's something down there. They passed that on to investigators and fire says, look, we could not get down there nor would we because of the significant amount of debris and the standing water. They were there for about 30 minutes. Fire was. Hopkins says though, before sharing the information with the lead agencies, they got the alert, told everybody there and left. Smart. He said KCFD did not follow up on the alert over the next week. Quote, because the department was no longer involved in the case. He said he could not speak to why it took another week to find the body and directed further questions back to the other responding agencies. So fire is saying, look, we did what we were asked to do. We showed up. We assisted cadaver dog alerted. We passed that on to quote all of the lead investigators and we left. It begs so many questions that over the course of the next week went on every news station, on the front page of the Kansas City star on this program. They released an updated photo of the suspect yesterday and I said he looked like the failed member of a Justin Bieber tribute band. We were all looking for this guy. Why question number one? Did no one at fire? Despite the fact they were no longer involved in the case. Pick up the phone and go, I'm sorry. Have you checked the basement? Did anyone go back and check the basement because maybe there was something lost in translation here. And we were there. We told y'all that the cadaver dog said, hey, there's something going on down here in the debris field basement. We yes, Kansas City fire is right in saying we're no longer involved with the case. We showed up, did our job, got out of there, told the people that needed to know, we're done. It does beg the question because there are friends within departments, there are friends of fire and police like, it's like radio. Like I could pick up the phone and call someone else at another radio station and be like, hey, not my like business here because we're out. But did you know like, dot, dot, dot, like right? Why did that not happen? And I know it's not on fire. Fire did their job. And if multiple different agencies were involved in the initial investigation, would they not have some sort of follow up while the active man hunt is still an active man hunt. This is what it says, quote, all officials on scene were made aware that the dog had alerted to the basement. All officials on scene, what actions or searches were conducted after fires departure. I cannot speak to end quote. Now, let's change the scenario here for a second. Let's say that this were a run of the mill house fire weird things happen all the time and house fires. It could have been a situation where an individual's downstairs and their basement doing laundry and the fire started in their kitchen right at the top of the basement stairs, right? The fire department comes, they put out that fire and for whatever reason, because there's clutter and water in the basement, which as they don't go down to clear the basement, say there's some individual down there in neck deep water that is barely surviving water by the way that filled up because the fire department came to put out the fire that was burning down their house. And then that individual dies. Do you not search Sam? I don't. How do you not go down? Water and debris is not an excuse to not go down and search the basement. Well, or if it was 10 foot of water, which I do not believe that it was, let's be clear, 10 foot of water would have been water out of the basement. You would bring in Lee's summit dive. Right. You would bring in the dive team. I don't think that's what the case was here. Do I think it was a horded mess down there? And then on top of that, you probably out of floor collapse. So you have debris pan-kicking down the way we see during fires. The difference in this scenario, you guys clearly is that there was believed to be a very, very dangerous person, willy nilly firing at people on the highway, killing one during one of the largest events that our city has ever seen or might ever see in the future, which makes searching that basement that much more critical because he was such a dangerous man. Now today officials, you would not want to be a spokesperson for independence today. My God officials for the independence fire department, which led the fire response did not immediately respond to a quest for comment from the Kansas City star. The independence police department did not immediately respond to questions about whether or not they were informed of a dog learning to human remains. I'm going to tell you this. And correct us if we're wrong if you're law enforcement on the text line. If Kansas City is called in from mutual aid, the lead at that scene in independence should have been independence. The house was in independence. The initial response was in independence. Now Kansas City was actively involved as was KCK and looking for this dangerous individual. But at the scene of that fire, independence is in charge of that scene. The only thing that I could think of that would change that is if they chased him there in any way. I don't remember if there was a police chase involved in this whole situation. They knew he was there, right? They thought he was there. Well, they definitely, I mean, somehow keyed on that house. I don't, again, don't know if they were chasing him. And that's how they found him there. And in that scenario, if they were the ones that initiated the chase, the chase went into independence. Would they maintain authority over that scene? It seems to me like KCKPD has authority over that scene because they're the ones answering all the questions. We're not asking IPD anything. I know. I know. And KCKPD, you know, they're saying today, this was not on us. Of course. They're saying, quote, this home was very thoroughly searched. I can completely understand that it raises the question, how could this happen? He repeatedly said the basement of the home was cluttered with debris and initially flooded. And Bikini even said that, you know, there are some things they need to iron out between agencies. But he said something to the effect of this was one of the most cluttered homes on that lower level he has ever encountered. One of the most cluttered, okay, I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm sure that thing was a nightmare and a mess. But now that we know that someone with Tacey Fire said, look, the dog handler says there's remains down there or they are, they are hitting on possible human remains down there. Who? With regard to the clutter, if you get a call for a welfare check on an elderly woman who lives in an apartment that's hoarded, you don't get to open the front door of that apartment and say, now it's, I think now it's beyond. Don't. Forget about the clutter. Forget about whether or not this was the most immaculate house you've ever stepped into or clutter. At the point that someone with Casey Fire says the dog is alerting to remains. Number one, how was that not received with the multiple agencies on scene? Where Casey FD is saying, we told everybody, which there should be paperwork indicating that that communication was passed on. And then dot, dot, dot, you know, like in the next week, did someone not think we should pick up the phone and remind me that there was a dog that's the whole thing is just it is mind boggling and not to be grotesque with this detail. But the family knew that he was down there because it had been eight days of hot humid muggy weather and the family bodies do a certain thing in hot and humid and muggy weather. I'm just going to say the family showed up to try to put their house back together. If that's even possible, salvage what they can from their burned out home. And they knew immediately they smelled death. Then called authorities authorities come out and say, oh, look, we found a body. And then fire says, yeah, we told you that a week ago that's back to your. That's the wrap up about too many cooks in the kitchen. Though is there a chance that there was a no, this is our scene. No, I don't think so. Not with something like this. Not with something like this because you know what? I don't think independence has dogs. If they had cadaver searching dogs, why call Kansas City fire out? That's a great question. The Dana and Parks show also discussed a cold case murder recently solved in Las Vegas. And how it shows the new ways DNA evidence is being used to solve crimes. Daniel Zizler was found murdered in 2005. Though authorities believe they found his murderer, the suspect has not been publicly named. And they reportedly died years ago. Update on a story out of Las Vegas and the end result of the story ticks me off. We'll get to that in a minute from CBS News. Authorities have finally solved the murder of a Las Vegas man who was strangled to death with a telephone cord inside of his home more than 20 years ago. And you can guess how they did it. They traced his bad debt. They traced his bad DNA. The case dates back to December 29th, 2005, when an apartment manager reported something was amiss at a property in Las Vegas. Police get there, they determined the victim had died from strangulation with a phone cord and his car was missing along with his keys to his home. They found the car abandoned and then everything went cold, right? They recovered a DNA profile that they all thought this entire time was linked to the person responsible. However, they never got a match because the person responsible was not in the system as a violent offender at that time. So fast forward to 2024, investigators resubmit the DNA profile for lab analysis and they use the genealogy route. They were able to trace that sample to a relative of the suspect in this man's murder. Who detectives also believe was seen in surveillance footage shortly after the killing having used this man's car to drive to a store and his bank card to make a purchase there. So long story short, it was always the guy that they thought it was. It took all of this time until we have the genealogical testing. They just didn't have any concrete evidence. To actually say, yes, this is the guy who did it. The potential murder suspect who was not publicly named. And this is where I get ticked off. Died in 2020. Though an arrest is not possible, the lab still characterizes the person's identification as a significant breakthrough in the case. Number one, why the hell would you not release the identity of the homicidal maniac that strangled someone in Vegas with a telephone cord? And number two, because we didn't have this specific technology until the last what five years that police department started using this, I always ask you this. How many other people did that person kill in all of the 20 or 30 years he was out roaming around amongst us that they weren't able to bring him to justice. That's what makes me mad about this. I just think we have the technology now with the DNA databases. I don't understand why we're not using it all the time. Not just for justice for the victims and the families to protect the rest of us from all of the weirdos that are still out there free because it's an unknown killer. Well, and I think the biggest problem is the fact that legal defense. Oh, it's money. Well, and legal defense knows straight up that they can pick that argument apart pretty quickly. No, I think it's, it's funding. They don't have the funding to test all of the samples. That's absolutely what it is. We talked to a police department about this a few months ago, and I'm trying to remember the cost, but Sam, it was astronomical. They raised some money through the family. They used some federal grant money. They cobbled together some money from one of the city's budget. I want to say it was over in Park. They were finally able to make it happen, but they said the days of like you and watch four or eight hours and you think they're just going to shove it into some genealogical database. These are private companies and it is very, very costly to test the samples. The lab testing can top $1,500 per sample. But what I was talking about was that most of the cases here, typically it's like a 15% match, a 30% match, a 60% match. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that if they're not confident, if they don't have good other hard evidence, which it seems like they had other hard evidence pointing to the sky. You have to have, you can't just have a DNA. Then it doesn't matter if we have some slight comparison to some ancestry database where his fourth cousin did ancestry six years ago. Yes, but any good detective will tell you what you do as you look at that tree. Immediately you know the killer was male. It's male DNA. So you wipe out all the women in the tree. It's not a woman. Yeah. Then you wipe out all of the dead people in the tree. It's not the dead people. And you just keep going. Then you go, all right, which one of these bozos happened to live in Las Vegas at the time this guy was killed? All right, now we've narrowed it down what to two, three, maybe one. So the other detective work has to come along with it. I just think the cost is, it's so cost prohibitive. They've got to figure out a way to make that. It's not going to go down. More cost effective to solve more cases to protect the rest of us. An ongoing cold case that captured the public's attention earlier this year was the disappearance of today's show host Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy, near Tucson, Arizona. It's now been around five months since the oxygenarian went missing. And a new detail about one of the multiple ransom notes sent in regarding the case was revealed this week. ABC News' Peter Heralambus joined Odyssey Station KCBS Radio in San Francisco to discuss this dark discovery. This is an update that many have been dreading, but in many ways feels inevitable after nearly five months, ABC News can now report that a second ransom note received by a local television station following the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie said she died shortly after her abduction and was buried in nature. This note came just days after an initial note that requested millions of dollars into cryptocurrency in exchange for her return. Savannah Guthrie seemingly referenced this on a February 7th Instagram post. Once she said, and I quote, "We received your message and we understand. We beg you now to return our mother to us so we can celebrate with her. This is the only way we can have peace." Do investigators think this note is legit and does the Guthrie family think it's legit? So the Guthrie family and Savannah Guthrie has said this in previous interviews, it says that she believes that those notes were likely real and authentic. The law enforcement has always had their doubts. That's the reason why they've held this information. We understand for so long they've been working to authenticate these two notes and also to be able to work back those communications to whoever sent them. So they've always taken these notes with a grain of salt, but where the story is at the moment, the fact that it's been so many months, the fact that Nancy Guthrie relied on certain medications, given her old age, but all suggest at this point that these notes in all likelihood were authentic and that Nancy Guthrie at this point is, as the note says, very good nature. Peter, there have been so many scammers and fakes who came out of the woodwork with tips and notes really not unlike this one. What is it about this one that stands out that has investigators and the Guthrie family believing it is in fact legitimate? Yeah, it's a great question because we saw this kind of onslaught of what appeared to be phony messages in the days after the disappearance and as public attention kind of heightened here. There were a few references in these notes. The references, for example, to asking certain information about things where things were located in her home kind of a method to kind of authenticate this information, knowing that if they can confirm that it would be authentic. Now, on top of that, the timing of these, the fact that these were kind of the initial notes, sensual local television station, all of that suggested it might in fact be true, it might be accurate. Ultimately, though, they've still been unable to truly say with certainty these were legitimate and certainly they've been unable to work them backwards to figure out who exactly sends them. At this point, the investigation is still ongoing. We see that there's still a million dollar award for anyone who has information and both the FBI and the PMC County Sheriff's Office are still accepting tips if anyone has information about who might have done this. Peter, in our last 30 seconds or so through your investigation of this case, do we know was Nancy Guthrie targeted? Was it a random kid napping? What happened here? Yeah, I mean, that's the big question that kind of remains unknown. She wasn't necessarily a public figure in the same way that her daughter is, but certainly this was a wealthy community. This possibly was an opportunity scene for a payday. It could have also been the fact that the house they believed might have been empty at the time. It's really unfortunately impossible to say what led to this, why they decided she would be the person to target and what really led to this very tragic outcome. Heralambus also joined the show A New Morning out of Odyssey Station WBEN News and Talk in Buffalo, New York to further discuss the Guthrie case. And there was a report that we heard a few weeks ago that said she was buried in Mexico. Where are investigators looking? Are they currently looking for some type of a grave in nature? Yeah, there was a period of time where they reviewed their search looking kind of in the desert, basically, to see if they could find any remnants. But ultimately, this investigation has kind of focused now more on finding potentially the people responsible for this. There's still a million dollar reward for anyone who might have information about this disappearance and who was responsible for it. Though it does not appear, they're actively going out into the desert and searching, given the kind of wide range of places, millions of acres where she could have been potentially buried. And to be clear, this note, this information is new, but the note itself is not. Have we had any new information or new evidence within the last few weeks? Not particularly. And you're right. This note was received on February 7th. We're talking about five months ago at this point. And since then, the investigation has cooled, though I will note there has been a lot of finger pointing. There's been a lot of people basically, particularly the FBI and the sheriff's office blaming each other for why this investigation was unsuccessful. So the FBI said the FBI director Cash Kitell claimed that his agents were uninvolved in this and that they were blocked from participating. The sheriff's office had said that's just categorically false and that FBI agents were helping from the very start. There's also been an effort to remove the sheriff for allegedly kind of failing and misinvestigation. That was ultimately unsuccessful by the board of commissioners, but certainly a lot of scrutiny on the sheriff's office on the FBI, given how much resources and time and energy was poured into this with no successful outcome. Any idea how much has been spent on this investigation and remind us who's leading it? Is it the FBI or is it the sheriff? I don't think anyone knows who technically is in charge, but it appears the final calls are being made by the sheriff's office in that they were the ones who make decisions about, for example, the DNA evidence and where would be sent. The FBI, if anything, has paid and taking a leading role on the federal side of things, offering their resources sending in hundreds of agents back in February. The FBI at the time had vowed to devote all their resources possible to this. The price tag, though, remains to be seen. I think we'll figure that out in the coming months and years as there are public disclosures about how many resources were expended into this. It's likely, though, in the tens or millions or tens of millions, this point. Crime and terrorism analyst Brad Garrett weighed in on the Guthrie case in an interview with a new morning as well. What do we know about this so far? How do we go about figuring out if any of these are legitimate or not? Let's start with that we don't have the whole note that's being referred to here. We have a couple of statements out of it. One that you mentioned that, and Nancy died, I think they used the word unintentionally, which has a number of definitions. I mean unintentionally means we didn't mean to kill her or she died because of a medical issue or whatever it might be. Obviously, the circumstances I'm going to presume how she was abducted that alone could have possibly call certain die. So you start with that. Then the note makes a comment about she's now with nature, which I'm going to assume means that she's buried someplace or laid to rest. And then there's no ransom demand, there's nothing else, there's also no information about where the family might find Nancy and it says left at that. And I think that Moved came in a week or two after Nancy disappeared. The law enforcement just now released part of it. I guess because they can't do anything else with it as far as I did find who wrote the note. Brad has this case ever made any sense to you, especially for a motive? Well, because this is what I do is analyze cases every day is that you always have to be careful because you just don't know the mind of the abductor in this case. Now if you want to assume, and maybe rightly so, that the guy at the front door that spends that in the ordinary amount of time wandering around at the front door with that odd mask and a weapon in the middle of us in the front of his pants, which is where no one carries a weapon, and spends way too much time out there. And then again, according to law enforcement spends 40 plus minutes in the house, I mean, who in the world does that with somebody that they don't know what they're doing or there's some sort of other issue with them that you have that. So the reason I'm saying that Susan is that, you know, what was his motive here? Was it ever money? Is this personal? What is it? Because he clearly doesn't ask for money or at least they have not released that in this note. But he also hasn't commented about where the family could maybe find her. So you have all of that. And so coming up with what's the real motive in this case, in my view, could be either way. It could be a financial personal or it could be a combination of both. Well, I mean, at this point, it's almost as if I don't know, none of this matters. I mean, certainly it doesn't seem like anybody's going to be paying any sort of ransom at this point in time. And I don't know these people who are responsible. It's almost as if they're appear to be getting away scoff-free. I mean, there seems to be no credible leads. Well, but that's not law enforcement's fault. I mean, as long as law enforcement works thoroughly every physical lead and every laboratory slice, you know, forensically lead and they've come up with nothing, then it's really at the mercy of the public to help them solve this. And, you know, the advantage of releasing things like at least part of this note, may generate some new leads because this is the case, like many cases, that one phone call you can solve it. Now, but it has to be the right phone call, obviously. So we'll see. I mean, we're what, three plus months into this case. And it doesn't appear like it's going to be solved anytime soon, but we just don't really know. There could be a call later today that could take them to it or that we will have this conversation in six months from now. Why all of the attention now on the second ransom note? Well, I think the attention being obviously the two things that we've talked about this morning are maybe add to some mindset of the of doctor. And it may be something that does help law enforcement solve this case again because it may generate new leads. So I think in this case, obviously has a tremendous media appeal to it. And anything that comes out remotely new, people want to hear about it because, let's face it, the idea that an elderly parent to get kidnapped this way, we all can have empathy with that. And I think so it, this case tension is a lot of people. Well, I mean, now we're just kind of looking at back and retrospect, this note have been out for some time right now. We go back to that question of legitimacy. I mean, for so much, all the attention this has gotten, a lot of people seem to be kind of assuming that the notes are legitimate. And we don't really, we don't really have much of an idea that that's really the case. Yeah, totally. I mean, could this be somebody that wanted to inject themselves in the case? Sure. That that is the possibility. But and we don't know what law enforcement's thoughts are. I'm going to again assume that it has some level of legitimacy of law enforcement. Or they wouldn't have waited this long to release it to the public. But clearly, I don't know the answer to that. So, so we'll see. Thank you so much for listening to this true crime roundup from the on Deadline podcast. This episode was written and produced by me, Lauren Berry, special thanks to 1010 wins in New York, KYW News Radio in Philadelphia, WBBM News Radio in Chicago, WCCO News Talk in the Twin Cities, KNX News in Los Angeles, the Dana and Parks Show out of KMBZ in Kansas City, KCBS Radio in San Francisco, and a new morning out of WBN News and Talk in Buffalo. You can find these programs on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your podcasts. You can find these true crime roundups by subscribing to the on Deadline podcast, the Who Killed Strawberry podcast, or the Bitter Academia podcast on the Odyssey app or wherever you find your podcasts.