Nino Schurter: Winning for 20 Years

I think pressure is something you can feel it as a weight or you can also feel it as a gift. If you feel pressure you are in a position where you are like actually, it's not everybody can feel that. T is the undisputed goat of a mountain biking, I think that's fair to say. And also sometimes you almost feel it's like you see things in slow motion, even if you're going for a gas. You like to get into this flow, this is the challenge and sometimes you don't know, sometimes you just don't get into it and sometimes it just goes under the oldest, clearly older in this field. And I don't have to anymore. And if I still can, it's actually super cool. Give an extra reason why you should be the one and it can help you to unlock your best performance. When was the last time you went mental? It's probably now with parenting. This day also needs a lot of mental strength. Thanks for all the inspiration over the years, you know, you're an absolute legend. You're definitely also a big inspiration for me. Ladies and gentlemen, we are back with another episode. This is shorter going mental. A man I have kind of had in my periphery for many, many years. He is the undisputed goat of a mountain biking. I think that's fair to say. He has a full Olympic repertoire of medals, 10 world titles, 9 overall world cup titles and happens to also be a very cool dude. So I'm very much looking forward to this episode. Welcome to you know. Thank you. I'm really looking forward to what I want to. I've followed your career as well all the past years and you also now my rule model in how you retire. Getting into the next stage. I think we might have to exchange a few ideas on how to do it. I was thinking about the first time that I met you. I actually didn't meet you. I saw you and this was in Stellenbosch in 2006. I believe six or seven. I'm not quite sure. And we happened to be staying at the same guest house. And we had finished a ride my best buddy and I and we got we were sitting on a corner cafe and we were sipping out whatever we were sipping. And next thing you, Thomas Frischknecht and a couple of other guys arrived on your mountain bikes and you were heading straight for the cafe as though the road went through the cafe. And then did a bunny hop onto the pavement and parked your bikes and I think you went from like 30 to zero within felt like 10 meters. And we were like who the hell are these guys. And a few years later it turns out you were, yeah, probably the most successful team that mountain biking has ever seen. You started as a young mountain biker and you said the mental aspect, the pressure was something that you always thrived upon or something that always suited you. Take me into that mindset a little bit. You can feel it as a weight or you can also feel it as a as a gift. If you feel pressure, you are in a position where you where you are like actually it's not everybody can feel that. It's also something nice if you can start to feel pressure, but yeah, you can play with your with your mentally. You need to try to always turn it around. That's not as pressure or weight on your shoulders. You always need to try to turn it around and see you're you achieved this position and you are now in this position and now you can actually also enjoy to be there. But yeah, I think this is the most difficult part and this is like why mental the mental game is so so important in the end. It's like everybody at the start line is well prepared and trained as good as he could, but in the end it's like what's your self confidence? Do you really believe in yourself and who can actually hold the longest against against those bad thoughts you have in your mind? Yeah, so it's racing is for sure a proper mental game in the end at the top level. 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I looked at what they were doing and believed in the formulation. Head to pillarperformance.com and use code going mental for 15% off first purchase. Give triple magnesium a go. Your next morning will tell you everything. Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I always used to say that or used to eventually say that pressure is a privilege, right? Because you've worked hard to be in that position. And then when the pressure finally comes, well, that is the fruit of your labor. But what I was interested in and curious is that I read a few of your interviews when you said that even as a kid, sort of instinctively you enjoyed the pressure or you were able to deal with it. Is that true? For sure, there's moments where I couldn't enjoy or what would rate was a bit too much, but I really always enjoyed to be to race. And the best was actually if you if you can surprise people, you know, if you really can like even show you the better than people are expecting. And this is like I never saw it as a burden or like it was always like fun and enjoyable for me. I also was always lucky that I could could like climb up and always go forward and that for sure helped. But it's I always enjoy to be just there and feel it and be at start line and feel this this energy and like this excitement and also this pressure. And I would say towards the end of my career, like I got a bit tired of it or like I was just a bit too much for too long, but it's still something I also like I think I start to miss the most like to be in this situation where you where you feel it's like where it counts, you know, those moments where you really can can do something and surprise people and yeah. It's amazing and you touch on something that I'm really curious about because you touched on the fact that you were always improving and that things were going well and that you know basically that the trajectory was always upwards right and at the end of your career, your absolute performance was probably much better or at its highest ever. But the trajectory obviously slows down the further you move on do you think that may also be a trick or something that makes longevity so so hard to achieve in sports because you were at the top of the game for 23 years. Yeah, I think for sure like I was such in things where we're not so much easier when you always like you always can have success again and you can you can move forward and that helps for sure for me to go so long and so far because it's like the hard work and also like all that the struggle is so much easier also if you have not always but sometimes success you know like and. And towards the end of my career for sure like I was harder and harder to reach that and this makes it makes it more difficult but also always to be in this position you know I when you are when you always go forward it's like you you don't want to slowly go backwards or down the ladder anymore you know like it's you and you also got to know how this when you are successful so this is like. For sure this is like was was was was a harder part for me than the answer but I wouldn't say it's just all about the result this was also always just to feel always this pressure not from the surrounding you know like I have moments in my career like if I didn't want people were like. I could feel it's like okay everybody expected i'm going to win and this expectation gets really high so this also for myself you know I also didn't and then I also didn't enjoy really great results anymore like even if I were pretty good I was like I didn't enjoy it so much anymore. I had to learn that George Manker, I had to learn as well, as it's not all about the results. It's actually much more about do you have to enjoy it? Because you can win race and I had moments where I not even I just made it because I was able to do it, but I didn't really enjoy it anymore. Then I realized actually success is much more if you enjoy what you do. Not the result is the most important thing. It's such a tricky balance because you're always. As this mindset, I always find there's almost two minds within and one is so result-focused and you're only as good as the last race and trying to achieve your maximum. The other one is all about flow, which I guess in your sport has a double meaning. When it's really easy, because it's fun, it doesn't feel like it's a struggle. It doesn't feel like you're really fighting, even though the workload that you're putting in is still tremendous. And I always found that's a curious double play. Does that sound familiar to you? Yeah, exactly. To get into this flow, for sure, if you have to best performance ever, you are just in this flow where everything is like. It's just going, everything is light. Even if you put down the biggest numbers you ever did, it's like it just feels easy and to get into this flow. This is the challenge. And sometimes you don't know. Sometimes you just don't get into it. And sometimes it just. And also sometimes you almost have the feeling it's like you see things in slow motion, even if you're going full-guess, like being in this. And yeah, now it's born flow as many meanings. It's like being in this flow of competition or what you do, or then also have the flow on the bike. So this is. But both goes actually in the same direction. If you find the flow on your bike, and you're on a trail, and you just hit every corner right, and every little bump, you can accelerate and take the speed with. That's actually. It is also the same when you find this in a race situation, or in a competition, or just in a situation where you need to perform. It's probably not just about sport, it's also. Just if you need to perform it your best, and if you are in your flow, and you. Everything just plays into your car, so. That's pretty nice situations, if you are. Yes. It really is, because. I mean, not that I can relate to anything at all on the mountain bike. I think of you quite often when I go mountain biking. I mean, now that I live here close to the bike park, and I'm like, "I wonder how Nino would take this line." But in all seriousness, in your racing mindset, do you have, or did you have any kind of. Let's call them tricks or rituals, that brought you out of this overthinking mind, you know, the mind that is technically analyzing what you need to do. When you. I always try and, you know, have the technical aspect that you need to have the correct form, and you need to read the trail. But really, the flow we were just talking about is when you let your subconscious run with it. Did you have any way to kind of, you know, turn your inner dialogue towards just letting be, or where you always needing to be in control? For sure, I always like to have the control. But yeah, for me, it was just like. Really important that I could do my preparation exactly how I like it. Like, you know, like, do everything, what you think is the best. And this, some athletes would see that difference. Or it's just like, for yourself, you need to get the preparation done where you think, now you did everything right. And then in the end, the race is still. It's a race, and not everything can always go into your direction. But as long as you know, you did everything. What you think is the best preparation. And you were happy with the whole thing. Then in the end, you can stand at the competition or at the race over there. And we actually quite relaxed and say, "Hey, I did everything, what was in my hands?" And the rest is part of the race. And nobody knows what's going to happen. So this for sure also took a bit or always took a bit of pressure of myself. To just. I was able to often have a perfect preparation. But what I think is a perfect preparation. Or maybe for another one, it wouldn't be a perfect preparation. But yeah. But then it's also like, I had a few tricks also sometimes. I like tricks like to just. If you really need to dig deep, if you had really some of those hard races, hard competitions, where you sometimes have to feel like it's just arm wrestling. Who can hold the longest against? And sometimes you fall a bit to your side in the back. And it's like, you do that for one and a half hours. And that one I had. Some of the tricks were sometimes to reward you with something. Like, okay, if I win this race, I will reward me with some holidays. And this was something I could sometimes trick myself a bit mentally. I like. Yeah, and it worked? That worked for you? That worked, yeah. Yeah, that worked a few times. I was like, where I was leaving. You know, like it is. It's just. Sometimes it's just like. You really need to push through the pain, you know? And just like who can hold the longest and you know, like it's. And if you like, say, okay, if I know when this World Championships. And I will suffer, I will treat me with an old timer, you know? I guess not for like this. Like, really, like, thank you to serve it. Fair enough, fair enough. I've seen your old time. I would also run quite hard for such an old time. And that being said, I've seen some of your holiday trips. So, why not? A little self-trip tumour-ishest sounds like a well-worthy reward. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because the thing is it's so individual, right? The preparation is individual. And also the rewards that you give. I think that's something that can very often be forgotten, especially when you've had so many titles, you've had such a long time that it just becomes. Like you said earlier, it just becomes the next thing, rather than actually making it monumental. And celebrating that kind of win. I think it's something that probably gets underestimated. You touched on the perfect prep. And I do wonder how you would recommend athletes, the modern athlete, today's athlete looks at that because I feel like the list of things to reach perfection just gets longer every day. There is another metric you can track. There is this that can be optimized, that that can be done. And how does someone like you, over the course of 23 years, treat the perfect prep? That's a really good question. And I think it's getting more and more. As you said, like all the different medics you can now track and all the. There's. After feeding almost every week, it's like a new method's coming up, like where you could like, "Ah, now you should do this and this." And there you also need to be able to wait what is really matters. It's like now. This new training, is it now really exactly that what you need? So this. And I think for young athletes, it's really a challenge now to find out, "Hey, is it really important that you take this supplement?" Or this, I don't know, this thing, or is it now this training that is really important? You know, it's like. And I think there you just really need to find the balance. But I was lucky, you know, when I started, I not even trained with power meters. And those days, like everybody that rides a bike is just looking at his numbers, just the numbers, the numbers, you know, like. It's like. it's sometimes you also need to forget about numbers and really just feel what you need them. But this is. I have to feel it's getting more and more, like difficult tracking your sleep, tracking your. Yeah, everything. And those days, you track everything. And I also started through my career to track, track more and more. But I didn't. really, if I think back, most of those things didn't help me to perform better. They just made me more thinking about, "Ah shit, no, I didn't sleep so well." My hard ride wearability wasn't so good. And most of those things actually made me think more about it. And just instead of waking up and thinking, "Ah, I feel actually great. I can do over there." And also, like always looking at the power, you know, like sometimes, you know, a lot of those things, all those devices, they also have like. They're not always as accurate as you think. And, you know, like, I had also. I have a good example. I did two bigger road races, like I did with Oregon Green Nature, I had the possibility to race to the race and to the Romani. And into this preparation, I got, because I was on a time trail bike, I got new power meetings for my pedals and whatever. And I was like, on this time trail trail, I'm just, I can't perform. I don't know why, but I can't. And an event, really, even mental, you know, like, it's like, I was, fuck, I'm so bad in this time trail. And then afterwards, I really, like, after those races, I realized those pedals, they put out of wrong numbers. And I was actually not too bad, but I went to those races, I already with the feeling I'm so bad in this. And then you also can't perform in your best, you know? And this is like, I think those days you should, you should like find what you really need, what you really need for your prep and then stick to your list. And not always like listen what this athlete is doing, and this, you just really need to do your thing, because it's not everybody needs the same, not everybody is, is preparing the same. I do, when I look at it, I feel like, especially because you mentioned road cycling, that cycling has become so structured and the intervals so exact. And there is almost a dependence that's created, right? The athlete is no longer actually riding by feel, but just becomes another cog in the system that has to perform and has to hold those numbers on a certain climb. And I wonder if you'd agree that there's possibly a sense of independence needed for the athlete to actually have the confidence to find them, to find that they can do their own thing, rather than just following the metrics, following your sleep score that you need permission from your sleep tracker to go out and train. I think that's something personal, you know? I think it's not, some athletes need those numbers, but it's just also super dangerous, you know, just going after just numbers. But I think it's, if you learn to weight them properly, you know, maybe just take it as a one metric, but then there's other things that you take in mind, like you're feeling, and then you can use them as tools, but you shouldn't just like on one metric, just decide on whatever you should do, or if that was a good training or not. And I think, to be, I still have, I think to be proper successful, you still need to try to just go after you're feeling sometimes. But it's something in the ritual, and I see, especially my young teammates, they are so it's all about numbers. And this is like, it's also new generation, you know? Yeah. But it can be super dangerous. Well, I mean, in your sport, it's really interesting, right? Because there is a lot to be said for the performance on the day and your physical output. But there are a few sports, and I would include mountain biking, that nature can throw something at you, like a rainstorm overnight, and the track that you visualise has changed all together, you're mentally at your top, you're feeling, you know, ready to perform. But there is a skill of interacting with nature that I find really curious about how you deal with it, you know, about having complete random changes out of your control thrown at you before the biggest day. I think this is like, especially mountain biking, I would say this is really crucial to be to perform, to be able to, you need to have a plan, but you also need to be able to change your plan completely, because it's like, I had actually so many, so many races where I had to change my perfect setting or my perfect overnight. I was like, one example is actually Olympics where I got Olympic champion in Rio, we invested so much in like, tire testings coming into those games, like rolling resistance, which tire is the fastest, you know, like, to this time it was not a big topic so for a lot of like, and we really like, I just needed to have the tires to roll the best on this track, it's like a fast course, and it's all handmade, so, and then it was raining overnight. In Rio, nobody said it's going to rain there, so we were expecting for 99% to dry fast rays, and it was raining at the course of some moddy, and I was like, an hour before the start, I was still, didn't know what tires now should use, and it was completely different, so I had to change my come, everything going into this preparation, I had to change, and I was able still, still to perform, and that you have so, so often, I think mountain bike in general, but often in sports things change, you have a crash, like you bike as a mechanical issue or whatever, and then you need to be able to change in seconds, you, you, you, you must plan, you need to have something else, and this, there you need these sands, you know, just feeling, and you're right, with your question before I think, and actually it's still just sometimes need to have these sands to just go off the feeling, and not after any kind of number or plan. Yeah, it just becomes another piece of the puzzle, and there are so, so many pieces, so to be able to zoom out, it is probably one of the superpowers, but maybe just since we're both dads, we kind of like our kids being active, I would be interested to start with a very small beginning, first pieces of your puzzle. Did you always start with mountain biking? I know your dad is the Swiss downhill national coach, or was, I think, - Oh, yeah. - Yeah, he was. But was mountain biking always from a young age, the one thing, or did you start off with a range? So I grew up in a really small Swiss mountain village, so just 30 people live in this town where I grew up. There's more cows than people. So, and it's in the mountains, so as a kid, I actually started with ski allpines, and through the allpines ski club, we got to mountain biking. But yeah, we grew up in this town, and there was no soccer field, there was no basketball field, so it is like, what can you do? You can ride you back, and there was pretty good trails around me. And then our whole family got into this sport, so my father started to ride my mother as well. Me and my brother, my sister, she's six-year-older, she didn't, she was, she was a bit older already, so she didn't really go day to day. But we were like, as a family, we were like, we started to enjoy mountain biking, and we went for some holiday days with the bikes. And so that was actually the way how I got them, and just in Switzerland, there was just a kid's mountain bike series just started to this time, and I really enjoyed it, to go from race to race, and there as well, I was from from my story, I was, I clearly had a talent, and I was always successful and that helped to keep going, and my brother as well, but he then, on one point he was not really the competition guy, he on one point he had enough, and he did a wild and downhill racing, so that's why also my father went into this downhill, and he became then also for a wild and national coach. And now my brother as he's still connected with cycling, he's has a mountain bike school in Toscony, the shorter bike school, but he, for him, this, I think the mental aspect actually was too much for him to always do perform, but he loves cycling all the way now, and what's also great, and my father as well, he's a passionate trail builder, and so we are, still everybody enjoys mountain biking in his way. Now, I always have this question, and I wonder how you think about it, whether the kind of, the destiny calls you, or you just stick around long enough to find your destiny as an athlete. Basically, are you born with a talent, or is it something where you just find enough positive reinforcements that you stick around for long enough? I think it's a bit of both, but I think you're quite lucky if you found the sport you also have a talent in. You know, it's like something you enjoy, and you also have talent. I think if you were on a reach level like we had, I think you need to bring a certain talent. If you are on such a high level, then if you don't bring the talent at the beginning, I don't think you will make it. But for sure, you also, you can then, you have to dig in to reach those levels. For sure, this is also like, yeah, keep interesting in what you do. It's for sure. In the end, you also need to have that, you know, to reach just to be the best version of yourself, like to always keep going. But yeah, I think I still do those days, and this is probably, you could call it, then tell it to be interested in what you do. For me, it's still such a cool sport to go out and drive your bike on a trail. You are nature. You can train your fitness, but you also have a bit of action going down the hill. I think mountain biking is a really hype for myself, but yeah, you can call it and tell it. I think it's sported. Never get bored. But yeah, I'm curious how you do that with swimming, because swimming sometimes I've seen that those guys, they are looking a lot at this pool floor. Back and forth, it's like this sometimes me a bit question how you do that. Yeah, I mean, call it clinical conditions. That's probably the way to look at it. And yeah, I mean, there is something right of the joy that you spoke, which is in the trajectory. So you see your improvement straight away and it's very objective, which in mountain biking, you have numbers and you have certain aspects, but you can see your trajectory and you have a black and white answer straight away if you did well in that day or not. And I find that sometimes it's an easy safety blanket to have said, okay, no, today my training went really well, which for you, there is more of a skill component that's harder to judge. So I don't know, now that you've got time, you know, feel free. If you need a swim program, how did you know? I'll send you one. Can you adjust swimming? Can you, that's the only thing that I can do, yeah? Yeah, absolutely. Do you want to print a mouth? That's, you know, there's no sea and no. No, you know, we're actually organizing a triathlon near you now in the Swiss mountains. So maybe we can try one at the end of the season. We'll get you swimming. What I really, what I'm also interested in, because as parents, I look around and I see a lot of parents now being obsessed with their child standing out at an early age. How do you treat that as a dad? You know, you come in, you know what it takes to get to the actual top. How do you treat that with your kids? I mean, your son is a little bit young at a few months of age, but you know, down the line, how do you, how do you look at it? Then I draw the season out 10 and she's doing a lot of different sports and I think it's, it's a challenge now. I think our experience is different than when I started. Now, even in those ages, sport gets already in an early stage really, really professional and as you said, a lot of parents, they push their kids already. So much like in a sport where I sometimes have to feel it's a bit early, you know, for like a sport, like for sure there are sports where you need, if you, if you're joining, you want to be world class or whatever you need to be really early. But I think in mountain bike cycling, you shouldn't like with 10 just to one sport. You should do a lot of different sports and you'd be able to, to try out new things and it shouldn't be as competitive already in those early years. And that, this I think it's a bit of a challenge at the moment. Our experience with my daughter, you know, there's like she's doing, she enjoys to do competition, but she's quite small for her age and she's like, she now struggles a bit like going to this races and like that the level is already so high and everybody is like, you know, there's like 10 year olds already do warm-ups on rollers before the race. Now like, hey, are you kidding me? You know, this is a kids race, you know, like, why, why do you put your kids on a on rollers for warm-ups? They can also crew around the bed and and so this is like, I think it sometimes loses a bit the joy because in the end, you really need to enjoy what you do to be also good and you need to, you know, like, just to have this talent also like to then what we just talked before about enjoying it doing for years. If you burn that already too early, we lose then actually in those years where it then really matters, they don't enjoy it already anymore. So this is a big challenge and I think it's, I also sometimes struggle a bit now with that as a father just to support in a good way and say, hey, look, it's, it's, if you really enjoy it and you want to keep doing, maybe you also stop for a while for competition. If you want to keep going to do some competition later, it's also still time, but I think you should also be able to to try out a lot of different sports. We are such rule models for our kids and my daughter is so, you know, she's already now, she's, she says, she wants to become a professional mountain biker, but you know, she's like, but you really need to find your sport you enjoy and this, I really want to keep, keep open for her and this, but I think it's a challenge, you know, and it's also a challenge if a, if a, if a kid, you know, has already like a bad, that was successful in sport. And I think it's quite a difficult, difficult way and this is, is a challenge. Yeah, absolutely, but the challenge is, it is really what, yeah, what makes it interesting and what makes it so, so curious for them to, to get there and then coming back to the skill of turning the pressure and the expectation into motivation for the kids, you know, that's, that's really where I'm, where I'm trying to study how they do it and curious if you have any, you know, any experience of where you've pushed your kids or you've pushed your daughter rather or helped her in a good way. Yeah, this is, I think it needs a good balance, you know, I try to, sometimes they also need a bit, you know, like, I sometimes say, if you signed up for this and this training club training, and you should not just because one day you, you don't like to go, you should like, you should at least stick to it for, for a certain time and then if you really don't like, you can go to do something else. But, and so I try to sometimes to motivate her a bit, they look to it and mostly is also, I have, often like, sometimes when she's like, I don't want to go to these days and then she comes back and has a huge smile, it was so cool. And so I think it needs a bit of both, but I also, I, I think the worst could be if at one point I feel I pushed her to do this, you know, like, I really want to, this I really want to avoid that that it's, she has completely enough of it or whatever. Just recently actually she signed up for race, we have come this Saturday and then she had bad training, like she goes to a club, local club training. And she had kind of a bad, I think she's just at the bad day and she's like, I'm not going to do this race and I said, yeah, okay, if you don't want to do the race, it's fine for me. And she was like, thinking all the time and then just two days ago, she had this club training and all this Tuesday and she had a great training and she came back, oh no, can I sign up for this race again? I was like, yeah, sure, you can. So this is actually the best when they find out themselves, you know, and and realize, okay, sometimes you can have a bad day and it wasn't so good. But the next day it was cool again and I know I want to do this again. So yeah, I think, yeah. Sometimes I do think it's also the luxury of being the retired dad that you kind of, we just overthink stuff, we try and do it, you know, if you think of your, of your path and your parents, you were just, you just did. That was, there was no question and your dad was busy doing other things. And we have to much time. Exactly, exactly. Talking of time, my friend, you've just turned, you've just had a round birthday and recently retired. How's that going for you? Really good, yeah. I just turned, yeah, two days ago, 40. A big number. Now I can, I really can't complain. Yeah, it took my time to retire. No, like it was like a process of more, more, many seasons actually. Well, like, can I, I'm ready for this step? And now I have to feel I really found the perfect time actually to retire from, from work up racing because I started to struggle, always also to feel this pressure and also there's new generation coming into the sport where I also started to feel it. it's getting really hard for me now to still perform on the level I want. And I also saw like now projects and ways where I like a field. This is actually something I also enjoy and I could feel I have a plan. So I had the perfect end of my work up career last year with being able to raise two times in Switzerland again we had World Champion trips and the World Cup in Lenshider where it's my home race and I had the perfect ending. And now I still enjoy it to be kind of an athlete. No, the World Cup race training more but I can still train and also it's okay I still train every day but I don't have to perform anymore and I have like I can be for all our team's partners. I can still be kind of an ambassador be more available for all the things and this combination I really enjoy you know I'm still kind of a racehorse but not the most important anymore. But I'm still I still feel from from all my partners and I'm worthy for them I can do all the things and then on the other side I've started all the projects like I started a trail building company together with my father to the gold trails where we built trails and in the mountains. Then I'm part of a few boards where it's also quite interesting here in the local tourism regions and that's yes it's cool I'm quite happy and I'm curious actually how you do that like you know some of us are like everybody I know you have time you can do this like not just like from partners and projects it's also from friends I know we could have finally go on this trip and this and like she's my calendar is all right we can look into next year yeah this is like at the biggest challenge like to find where you put the weight really and don't yeah yeah it really became helpful for me at some stage is that every time you say yes to something you say no to something else right and in that case every trip I go I say no to a bike ride with my son or a swim session with my daughter and that really made me weigh it up and give it the same importance as before because again like we said you know we've had to restrict ourselves I don't ever feel that the word sacrifice is accurate actually I'm curious how you think about that did you ever feel like you're just sacrifice things during your career not necessarily you know on a day to day basis but overall no I actually also don't see it as a sacrifice because I you get so much else you know like and I knew you never for me never felt like sacrifice maybe the only thing now with having kids there is like not having sometimes feel like you could have more times for your kids when you had like this training camp or traveling there again and maybe being away when when there's a birthday there there I started to feel feel it as a sacrifice but before actually all other effects actually not because I I always had the feeling gives me so much more in other in other places yeah I'm and that's exactly how or how I how I always saw it that you really get to live your dream and you know it's intense but it's all consuming and it's essentially very fulfilling which is really you know probably the biggest challenge of chapter two is to find something as fulfilling as you know being as chasing your dream or your goal or whatever it is yeah I think it's it's hard to find another another job or another project where you can feel as fulfilling as a as a sport career it's like you can work on yourself and you can just it's and if you're then successful it's something I it's probably hard to find something else that is so so intense and so much emotions and so much um sweat in there you can say yeah I'm curious for you especially after Rio you had a full full select a full full set of medals on the pick um you had at that stage I don't know how many World Cup wins but then you know for a while thanks to the pandemic the racing stopped and for about three years in between you had to navigate a phase where you still probably had the dream of chasing an overall World Cup win which was 33 at the time um what kept you going in that time when you really had achieved the majority that you could go that from the outside looking in you had the perfect career if you would have stopped everybody was said hey Nino great going um well done that's it yeah definitely struggle with this time you know like some of the sudden yeah for sure there was the one aspect I achieved already everything what I dreamed of um and then this pandemic came there was no competition then you think uh for what you're training now you don't even know when you when you have your next uh next competition and I yeah there was it was it was quite a struggling time for me but I think what keep me cat me there they're going I was still I didn't had any perspective for the wheelie wanted to do so I still was a bit I didn't had the plan because it came came some of something and I was like okay what what I want to actually do you know like and then I think this this kept me going because I like I still need to figure out what I want to do because I wasn't ready or I yeah nobody planned this pandemic some some coming and no competition we just I remember we just been in South Africa and we were like supposed to start the K-Bat big and then the day of the race they said no it's going to happen you you can travel home and uh and this is actually then I first had to figure out what I really want to do I think that kept me going and then I luckily was still successful afterwards after a while but it took me a bit to to get back you know like yeah wasn't the youngest anymore to this time and I really had to to get back to to the to the winning way yeah yeah and and this I find quite curious because then you had two moral Olympics um not going to plan I think let me just find the exact quote that you used um where was it I probably didn't realize that I had exceeded in my Olympic preparation that was 2024 and I mean it's four years right that goes into it I've been to two you've been to five Olympics if I counted right um how do you deal with that in such a moment when you realize okay this is probably my last time um you know and that you put the the owners on you essentially you said that you were the one exceeding it what does that mean it's probably one of my my biggest disappointments was like the Olympics in Paris my last ones I really at the feeling I'm still I'm still there and I'm prepared perfectly and I really wanted to perform on on my last Olympics but you know I had this already in Rio I had already to think maybe it's my last games now I really need to now really need to to show uh and then the two mores came but um yeah it's it's yeah it was uh I don't know what uh what ran wrong there exactly but it was on one point maybe I got a bit too too much uh the mental game got maybe a bit too much as well just wanted it too much I mean it's an interesting balance right when you realize okay there is there are fewer opportunities this is something that I realized is that you don't take it for granted every time but it's such a fine line such a tight rope to walk that yeah uh 1% over is is worse than 5% under yeah this is this is but this is the challenge in sport you know to find this fine line the balance that this is like a good like in everything it's the balance that makes you a great athlete it's balance in training recovery balance in how much pressure you put you how much it's like and this is like makes it so difficult because in every aspect you need to find at least a good balance absolutely and and that's exactly what I was trying to get to is that you can have all the mental strategies you can every everything perfect but every morning you wake up with a slightly different version of you and and the big older version you have to that's also true every every time something creaks you wonder if it's the door or your knee um but did you ever seek help did you ever find like a mental coach or have anybody that that that helped you on this journey to figure out you know exactly this balance um for For a long time in my career, I didn't have help. Then actually coming into Olympics in Tokyo, I had the feeling now that there was actually to this time of the corona, we are struggled a bit. I had the feeling now I also need to get better in this. I still have the feeling I'm kind of a talent of me just to find the mental strength was something I still had the feeling I did a lot of things right. But coming then of these years that I didn't perform so well, finding or getting help was actually for me quite helpful, getting to. Then sometimes you just need to work for a bit with a coach and then those things you learned you still use forever. But yeah, I just actually over one year I worked with a mental coach. But we had in juniors, junior national team, we had a few times a mental coach show us a few tricks. I think I always used for myself, you know, my visualization and how I raised to go and visualization of a track and all those things. I always did how to match it for myself or I didn't have the feeling I need to do this now. It's now mental training. It's like I did that when I was denied before or when I was on course, I tried to do a lot of those things. But there is also some athletes need much more and some need less. The one or the other trick, if you just get one trick, you can use your whole career. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, I like it. Before we close up, I would like to finish on the positive note. And I feel like, you know, after some struggle and, you know, a little bit of a campaign, not going the way you did, you ideally wanted it to. You then went and broke the overall all-time record of World Cup wins, lifting from your old rivalry, Julian Absalom from 33. I didn't just break it, took it two more, so went to 36. Is there something specific that you did or something that opened the floodgates for you that you were struggling for such a long time, three years without a win, again, difficult times, of course. But is there something that you attribute this change to? Yeah, probably. It was mentally, I would say. Like, I had through my career, I had so many years, I was like the young writer that was like, oh no, he can surprise everyone in winning World Cup races as a super young man. And some of a sudden I was in this stage where I like, okay, now you need to win, everybody expected it. And then after a bit, those years are struggling a bit, I was like, okay, now I'm actually, again, in like a similar position as before. I'm the oldest, clearly oldest in this field. And I try to get this, how do you want to say motivation or this extra, like, if I can win, it's even better, you know, like it's like, and see this motivation and this extra energy to show, hey, you can still with, with 39, no, my last one, I want with 30, we still have 38, 39, I didn't want anymore. It was early 24, no, I didn't, yeah, but it was just before my birth, and things, almost 30, yeah, in all these holy, I want my last one, and 25, yeah. So it's, I saw it as an extra, as an extra motivation, extra, and this, I think this is a good takeaway for many at least if you can find extra reasons why you should perform better, like, or even if you have like, I also some, in some years, like, I had a flat tire and I, I then think, I want to prove you can also win a walk up with a flat tire. I want to, ah, my, something didn't went perfect, and now I want to still prove, I can do and see that as a motivation, because if you can trick you, you, you, you mindset and just like, give, give an extra reason why you should be the one, it can help you to, to unlock your, your best performance. And I always think that a mechanical is the ultimate way of removing the expectation, and I always have the saying left, like, expect nothing, appreciate everything, because the expectation just loads the backpack, but if you can just go out and really be looking forward that if it works, it's fantastic, but if not, you know, you still have a good time. And you know, thank you so very much for this chat. I genuinely enjoyed it. We have the traditional closing question here of asking you when was the last time you went mental? Now, last time I went mental. It's probably now with a, with parenting. This also needs a lot of mental, mental strengths. Yeah, I can, I can attest. I, I have full disclosure for all the listeners. Is, we actually scheduled to record this yesterday when Nino forgot that he's, that he's birthday was the day before. And he messaged me somewhere in the middle of the night saying, hey, can we push back a little, I had a surprise birthday party. So you probably went mental there too. But I think it's a great sign for anybody who's wondering if you're doing well in retirement. I would say you are. Thanks for all the inspiration over the years, Nino, you're an absolute legend. And thanks for your time. Thank you, Rion. And thanks for this interesting chat. It was, was really enjoyed too. Alright, thank you.