Nick Saban on Playoff Expansion, Best Bama Stories, Building Championship Culture & Why You Want Selfish Players | 210

I don't do podcast, I mean, this may be the second one I've done in my life, I refuse to do it. No, this is an honor coach, but my daughter loves you guys and she convinced me that I should do this. And I'm not going to risk it for you guys, so I wanted to do it for you guys. But I just want to leave a message out there for everybody else. I'm not doing this shit anymore. Welcome back to New Heights ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls of one tree show brought to you by all state. That's right. We are your hosts. I'm Travis Kozen. My big brother Jason Kelsey had a Cleveland Heights Ohio University of Cincinnati, alum, Go Bearcats. Subscribe on YouTube wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to follow the show on all social media at New Heights show with 1S. And Jason wants to tell everybody how this episode is about to go. You're going to enjoy this one night to recenters. We're going to get into his time on college game day, what he thinks of the 2014 playoff. And why there's no eye in team, but there is an eye in win. All right, Matt. And so much more. Jason, do the honors. On your guest today is the 1972 Mac Champion. Deep, it's a back from. Let's go. Skyman time. National champion. Winner coach. 11 SEC championships. College football. Hall of Fame. Every Saturday. Co-hosting college game day. Also just celebrated his 75th birthday. The greatest football coach of all time. Nick Saban. Let's go. Jesus. Co-savid. Oh, man. That was that was I thought you were going to blow a vessel right there. Well, we've left off happy accomplishments too. That's only a trucking version of it. Coach, it's an honor to have you. How you doing? Doing great. Appreciate you asking. How about you guys? We're doing good. I mean, obviously in the middle of the season. You know, we're traveling and all that. But I'm fighting. I'm fighting. You're watching football, man. Yeah. Travis still getting out there, getting after it. Yeah, we, uh, we, we've lost two in a row, but, man, it's, uh, the challenge has been set by coach Reed already. And, uh, we're ready to fucking attack it already this week. Yeah, well, you guys got off to our great start though. And, you know, never know how those by-weeks work some time. I always felt like, you know, if you're playing good, and you had a little momentum, by weeks weren't so great sometimes. I hear you. Even the players want them. I hear. Um, and, um, you know, sometimes when you, things aren't going well or you're banged up a little bit, you need to get guys healthy. It works out great for you. So sometimes it's good. Sometimes not. But it is what it is. Ain't that the truth? Coach, we're going to get into college football almost immediately. But I do want to ask you on behalf of Philadelphia. So right now, the egos, I don't know how much you're following the NFL these days. Lost six straight. If you're the head football coach, what challenges in your experience are being presented to those guys? How are they trying to move forward after suffering something like that? Coach, if you ever lost six in a row, God never. Can't even imagine you losing that many in a row. Well, you know, the first year I was at Alabama. We were like six and two had like, I don't know, six or seven players suspended for the rest of the season by the NCAA for something that happened before I even got there. And we lost like, I don't know, four or five games in a row. But then we sort of bounced back at the end. And look, I think that. What I always try to do with players is say, hey, look, you're creating value for yourself by how you play. And we lost a quarterback. We got some injuries. You know, everybody's got to pick up the slack and do their job a little bit better and play together as a team. And if we don't have a quarterback, we got to play better on defense. If we don't have a quarterback, we got to run the ball better. So the people around the guys that are not experienced need to play better. So that's what I always try to emphasize with the guys and. But sometimes it's hard, you know, because you create momentum in sports. And, you know, when things aren't going well, sometimes it's hard to create the momentum and stay positive about what you're doing, how you're practicing, how you're preparing. And, you know, it becomes a little bit of a burden for people. But, you know, the big thing I think you got to do is just keep teaching them to be technical and not be so outcome oriented that. You know, everything is lost because we're losing these games. How about let's just play good. Let's just go play good, you know, one play at a time and see what happens. I love it. Love it. Well, college football game day is headed to South Bend, Indiana for a little note a day in Miami action. In terms of, you know, the matchups, I think this might be the biggest and most intriguing matchup that game day has been to yet. Are you are you excited for this one? Do you have a take on the on the outcome? Well, you know, I am excited for it. You know, one thing I love about game day is, you know, when you're you guys played on a team, I coached a team. You know, you look at everything through a sprawl, you know, who you are playing your team, what you have to do. But when you get into this game day thing, you're looking at everything from a thousand feet. And you're looking at all the teams in the country watching film on them seeing what they're doing on offense, defense. I mean, and it's really been fun for me, you know, to do that. You know, I think every team that's in the top five, six, seven that are probably the best teams all have some flaw, you know, that they they need to improve on. And whoever can manage that disruption the best in terms of making improvement in that area is going to have the best chance to be successful. They're just like Miami, you know, they're great offensive team, but they've started on defense in terms of getting, giving up points, getting off the field on third down and getting stops. So, and they've given up points, 35 points, you know, a couple times. So they got a challenge on defense. I know they got really good coaches and I know they'll get them coached up, but you know, Notre Dame, they seem to have a really good defense. They seem to have a good quarterback. They seem to have good offensive players, good offensive line. I don't know if they have the great skill guys outside. They've got enough, but, you know, they they they haven't been able to put it together in the big games. You know, they got guys from wide ass open in the in the BYU game and hell, I could throw it to them. Oh, it's really good. I mean, it's open by 10 yards. You don't have to make a perfect throw. Just get the ball to them. Yeah, so, but, but anyway, so I think it's going to be a really good game. You know, somebody like I just came off the golf course and he's got to talk about the Notre Dame Miami game and they say, well, it'll be bad for Miami because they got to be able to pass them all if it's raining. And I said, look, I coached defensive backs for 50 years and I always thought when it was raining, it was an advantage for the offense. Interesting. Because you got to change direction and try to cover people when it's really hard if you got a bad field as long as a quarterback can handle wet ball. You're in good shape. So, I don't know. The older I get, the more I love the elements, man. All of a sudden it slows down these quick guys just a little bit and as long as I'm precise with my movements and my feet, man, I feel like I always got the advantage. Well, you can you, you know, play in tight and you can use the umpire, you know, when I was coaching at the Houston Oilers and Aussie just playing in Cleveland. Legend. I was a baby. I was coaching for Glendale. So we played a lot of cover one and Aussie would rub the strong safety was Keith Bostic. He would rub his off the ass off. That's legendary. That's legendary. Just find the umpire. I got a deep cross. I'm running. I'm running my man to man it up. I'm sorry in advance, but yeah. That's crazy. Coach, it's been your third season now doing game day. Do you find yourself preparing similarly to you did as a. I mean, obviously much higher thousand. What is your view or whatever that you said, looking everything holistically, but do you prepare for the games you're covering like you did as a coach. Yeah, I do. Um, like I always do that film room thing. So I look at three games to pick out five or six plays that, you know, we're going to tell the story that you want to tell about the offense or the defense or whatever the concept is you're talking about. You know, Kirk, Herb Street and I do that big board thing and I usually pick the plays out for that. Um, so I like that. And then, you know, the other games that we're going to talk about, maybe I'll watch a game on them just to see what it's like, but what I like is being able to watch what people are doing. Whether it's like, you know, all these guys brought me crazy in college, nobody wants to deny the ball, you know, they want to play zone and break on the ball. Quarterbacks and a good break on the balls overrated. I mean, here you are. So every now and then you got to deny the ball, whether you play a man or play split safety man, a man of some kind, whether it's quarters or whatever. And so philosophically, I have a hard time with that. I see these people playing fire zone, playing zone three under three deep. And I'm saying, you can play man-to-man on that too. And I call it Ripley's match where you only have man if they go vertical, if they go under you. Call under it, play zone. So you don't get the double crossers. So anyway, I love looking at that stuff. I love it, Coach. I'll tell you what, I've always respected the guys that came out of Bama, man. The mentality, the tension to detail. I just got done playing Patrick Sertan. Absolute dog at corner. And I think you're just hearing you talk about man-to-man defense. Do you think it's been a bit of a lost art in the college game and it's making guys harder for guys to transition into the league? Well, to be honest with you, when I was a college coach, before I went to the Houston Oralers in 1988, I think it was. And I coached every player the same. And a big zone guy. Because basically, I didn't know how to teach man-to-man. So I go to the NFL, and we played a lot of man-to-man. So I learned that the players in the NFL, where there was ever some balls, men of field, Steve Brown and Houston, those guys really basically taught me how to teach players how to play man-to-man and different styles of how to play it. And so when I went back to college, I felt like we could coach it and teach it, and we could teach different players how to do it. Because we didn't have to teach everybody the same. So different styles. So I do think there's a lot of guys in college that are afraid to play man-to-man. Are you talking in terms of different styles? Are you talking just like two man versus single-high, or are you talking actual technique of how-- No, I'm press versus off. Yeah, I'm talking about the technique of a guy like Frank Minifield was not small, but a 5'10, 5'11, very quick, very explosive, great feat, change of direction, where ever some walls was like 6'2, had 42 inch arms. Was it the fastest guy in the world? Played a lot in a half turn. So the way you coach those two guys was completely different. So you get a guy like Marlon Humphrey as opposed to Patrick. You coach him a little bit different. So that's the one thing that I learned being in the NFL, because NFL is all about football. I mean, you don't have to recruit. You don't have to do all this go speak to Red Elephant clubs and all that bullshit. So I can only fucking imagine coach. So I learned a lot from the players in the NFL and terms of how to play man-to-man. And I thought I always thought that we could teach our players better in college. Not only the technique, but also the technique that fit them the best based on their skill set. That makes sense. Heck yeah, it does. And it's proven. It's proven. How many guys you had transitioned into the league and their stars? Coach, obviously immensely successful career in coaching. One of the things-- every time I hear you talk, it's just like there's something about as a player here in a coach speak. In particular, one has good at it as you are, where you just trim all the bullshit out of the conversation and can get right to what's pertinent. Even when we did like a press thing for ESPN, and I'm sitting there listening to you talking, I'm like, man, I'll run through a wall for coaching right now. It's up there. What do you miss-- when you're on game day, when you're on the field with some of-- do you miss coaching? Is that still run deep in you when you see it on game day and all this stuff? What I miss is I miss the relationship with the players. Because, you know, I always thought a coach should be a teacher, a teacher should inspire learning. And we were trying to help players have a better chance to be more successful in light, personal development, graduate from school, and develop them as players, so they have chance to play at the next level. So I miss those relationships that got created and trying to do all that. I miss the competition. So I'm telling you, I just turned 75. When you get this old, it gets a little harder to work 14 hours every day and solve all the problems and be able to manage the grind. And I think when you have a really good staff-- and we always had a really good staff-- but at the end, it got harder and harder because people say, well, you had all these coaches become head coaches. Yeah, they become head coaches. That's great. And I'm wondering to become head coaches. But then they take your assistants, too. So you're now already placing them. You're replacing other people. And it gets harder and harder. And I think the longer you're a head coach, the less you know about the best assistants. Interesting. Because when I used to recruit, I used to meet guys on the road all the time. And I'd say, hey, I'll hire that guy someday. He's a good recruiter, a good teacher. I'll talk ball with him and all that. And then I learned from Bella Check. Like, we had all these go-get-to-coffee guys in place at the Brown. I'm talking about Phil Savage, who became a general manager. He only become a general manager. Schwartz became a head coach in the league. I'm not even naming them all. These guys are all running around. And I'm saying, why are you doing this? He was doing that. It didn't create an advantage for us at the time. He was training guys that he knew. He would hire someday and bring him back to the organization. So I did that in college all the time. I mean, we got NCAA was on our ass all the time. So you got too many GAs. You got too many interns. You got-- why you got all these guys? And all the coaches are saying, well, he's creating an advantage for himself by having all these coaches. No, I was just trying to train guys, get him a job at Louisville or something. Let him coach for a couple of years and then hire him back because I knew what I was getting. So we kind of ran-- That's not crazy on that too. So it was harder to have a good staff in the end or the best staff in the end and made it harder for me. And look, but I'm happy to be able to do things that I was never able to do. Simple things. Like, my son had his granddaughter for Halloween. As a judbox on the porch, play music. Kids come up. You get one piece of candy. If you dance to the music, you get two. I never got to do that. [INTERPOSING VOICES] Well, it's enough right there. I'm out there being-- Should we dress up for Halloween? You're saying you dress up for Halloween, coach? Yeah. I'm going to check it out. That's awesome. [LAUGHTER] There we go. I love it. That's got to be-- that's got to be so much fun, man. Let's get to the current state of football. Enter out on the 24 team playoff. Oh. I'm not a big-- 24 seems like a lot, man. Too many. There's not 24 teams in a country that can win the National Championship. So what is the reason to actually do it? Money. You got it. It's going to be something that was there right there, yeah. Yeah, but what you're giving up, which is what I hate to see is, you know, the SEC Championship game playing the SEC Championship was a big thing to our players. It was a big thing to our fans. It was a tradition. And it was a great venue. I mean, there's only two teams that can play in a national championship. But more teams can play in those kind of championship games. And you know, there's a lot of pride in winning the conference championship. And you know, we played in those games. I mean, we're one. Florida's two. Florida's one. We're two. Georgia's three. We're one. I mean, it was a great game. And great. I'm the player's love for you. And we're going to give that up to have an extra game where the 24th team is going to play the ninth best team. I mean, if we had just put the right 12 teams in and didn't go through all the political BS that we went through so we could have a 12 team playoff and end up putting a couple teams in. And then some other teams that should have been in didn't get in. That was a good tournament. And maybe you go to 16 if you want to include some other people. But 24 is a lot. It's too many games for college football players to play. We played 15 games, I think three times. And I thought that was too many games for college players to play. And the way we spread them out, you know what I mean? You played December 4th in the SEC championship game. And then you don't play the first round of the playoffs until New Jersey. That just makes the season longer and longer. I mean, how would you guys you guys play the NFL? How would you like to have a month off? Just talking about the by-week. How he could and how he could just be. Yeah, that's that's so that's where always confused me. So I'm not a big proponent of it. And and I really don't think that it's going to create that much more revenue because you're going to give up a lot of a lot of revenue. I mean the SCC Championship game, for instance, there's a lot of revenue involved in that right right right just because you have an extra round of the playoffs. I don't know how much greater the revenue is going to be for the actual schools so I don't I'm not a big proponent of it. I think it minimizes the importance of the season like you know right now you could probably win two games if you play a really good schedule and lose two games and still get in the still get into playoffs just like Miami you know at this point in the season last year Miami was 18th in the country they lost two games in the middle of the season they dropped way out of the polls they barely got in and they were in the championship game but they had a good good football team so there's going to be somebody like that this year but I don't think you need 24 teams in there. No chance I'm right there with you. You brought up the SCC championship game and how big of a game that was when you were in the SCC all the years you were. What was the craziest environment that you played in? Oh yeah I want to hear this. Well me personally. Yeah. Probably the first time I went back to LSU. 2008. Yeah. Yeah. Louisiana down there. So I'm admittedly I've never been to an SEC football game and I've always wanted to go and everybody I know that played in the SCC says you got to go to Baton Rouge at night. You got to go you got to go to a night game in LSU. It's it's look I love the people there. Yeah we had a great one there and I really enjoyed it but man when I went back that first time it was rough. I can't even tell you some of the chance they were chance. That's too funny. That's the beauty of college football right there for you man. Yeah but I tell you there's a lot of places tough to play in the SCC. Tennessee's hard place A&M's a hard place. The swamps are hard place. Alabama's you know tough for the other team to play. So there's a lot of big stadiums and lots of passion in the SCC and I think the reason for it is there were no pro sports in the south you know 50 years ago and you know the dolphins came in the Lana came in but so everybody grew up being college football fans or college sports fans and they relate to that institution whether they went there or not and there's a lot of passion and man it's a great league to you know compete in play-in players loved it. I loved it for many many years and I still think it's a great league but look I looked at the schedule the other day there's 10 losses on the teams that have one in two losses in the SCC there's 10 more losses out there because they play each other. Right and you know this is where this this committee you know I I hated it so subjective that somebody's going to have a really good team and maybe have three losses and some team that goes 11 and one and some other league is going to get in and you know they would lose three or four games if they were playing that kind of a schedule in the SCC so it's just the top of it you know you got to have some way to evaluate strength of schedule. Right absolutely. Well I'm not did you get a little taste of the transfer portal before you stopped coaching. Oh yeah we had it for three years we had you know I can't remember when I can't remember when it actually started up and everything how how much has the transfer portal taken away from the culture that that coaches are are trying to set and the standard they're trying to set in the building. Yeah well I think that that's part of it but I also think that it changed the dynamic for the player I mean we all went to college and you guys were in this era too. Oh yeah. But you were trying to develop value for your future. Yes. You work on your ass off to be the best player you can be get a degree do whatever because you were trying to create value for your future I was trying to create value from our future but now when these guys and I'm all for players making money. Yeah but they have to have some responsibility for the money that they make rather than just cut and run anytime they want. But I think you change the dynamic of are you going to college to develop and improve or are you going to college to see how much money you can make which means you may not be as committed to doing the things you need to do to be the best that you can be and there's going to be some adversity that you have to overcome you're going to have to persevere some things and you know guys just go to the next school go to the next school so you know we we had three years of the transfer report and every time an assistant coach would command and say to me well we're only offering a guy 150,000 and they're offering 300,000 at another school and I'd say look if the guy comes here for money he's going to leave here for money. So we want guys that want to come here they're going to have good quality of life but they're going to develop and they're going to focus on development and the things that they need to do the habits they need to create the skills they need to get the sacrifices they need to make the habits all the things they need to do to be the best players they can be we want aspirational people man we don't we don't want people that are so consequently I think maybe six guys were the most we ever took out of the portal and kept the players on our team and kept them and developed them and paid them first and you know Gibbs and Jamal Williams and and those kind of guys are the guys we brought in guys that we needed they needed to play and we needed them to play at their position so and that's that's the philosophy that I maintained but I think it gets harder and harder to do that because now you got agents everywhere you got but these kids can't sign contracts but they mean nothing they just leave they don't have any penalty for leaving well that's the thing that doesn't make sense to me like and I know you've talked to Congress and they're trying to get this thing right but it doesn't make sense that there's a commitment from the university but no commitment in terms of like a contract or any type of time period from the player like it's you know it's the Wild West it's not right let's go all right and it's not in the best interest of the player like you just said like all for players getting paid but there's I developed so much of you know work ethic and all of these other attributes in college because you have to figure it out and you have to grind it and it'd be interesting going through college nowadays with how it happens and how quickly guys just up and leave the moment there's any type of adversity or anything anyway sorry go ahead coach but you know this this save college sports thing has three components in it and it's probably 80% good it could be 20% better I don't disagree with that there's some people that think there's some issues with it but it does create five years of eligibility so you don't have these guys playing seven and eight years I mean last year during the draft there were 50 players in the draft that were 25 or older that's never happened before it's insane that that doesn't mean there's only 50 players in college that are 25 or older that's just how many guys were in the draft right so five years you got five years you start you got five years there there is no six seventh eighth year whatever guys are standing college because they can make money so that it addresses that number two you only have one transfer as an undergrad now I'm four if a guy graduates and he's got another year left and he can he's playing that's how it was when we were yeah yeah and and go to some place else for your 50 year because not going to play as much where you're at or what we don't have the opportunity or maybe it's educational maybe you want to get into something that the school you're at doesn't have whatever it is yeah so it addresses that so you got the eligibility issue you got the one transfer issue and there is a cap on the money and it's kind of the Larry Bird Rule I mean there's 21 million of regular revenue share and then we're going to take somewhere without a amount of money that you they call them collectives you know they raise money at the university and you pay the players they say it's marketing but it's really not but but that money all goes into this pot and you can only pay the players on your team with that money yeah so that that's for player retention right you know I call it a Larry Bird Rule you know I was gonna say we're at the Larry we're at the Larry Bird if it all come into play here well because they change the rules in the NBA so he could stay at the Celtics and you can go someplace else so they were they were able to go over the cap to keep them nice is that makes sense so we're making parity greater because right now you have some teams that are spending 60 million dollars on on their roster other teams that are spending 40 other teams that are spending 20 and they're all playing each other and about 95% of the games get one by the team that has the high salary cap so coach we don't have the oil rigs up in Cincinnati Ohio we don't got the ability to just cut the check like some of these taxes I get it and that's not that there should be some, look, every school could let's just say you put a $45 million cap on all this. Every school can decide whether they want to spend that or not, but nobody can spend more than that. So you can't really buy a roster and I think that makes better parity, better competition. It goes back to focusing on more development because when a player leaves now, you only can do it once. So he better make sure he's doing the right thing. And I just think it's so much better. Well, I've heard a lot from coaches saying, you know, kids now are different. And your mind is coaching different. Is it harder? Our kids different coming up, excluding all these other things going on with college football, just into kids as people coming up through sports these days. Look, I think I think kids are exposed to different things like the internet, social media, all the things that they get hit with it. When we were 17 years old, we didn't have to deal with it. So do they focus a little more on external factors rather than internal things that they're driven to do probably. But at the same time, I still think people want to be disciplined. People want to be led in a direction that's going to help them create value for the future. I think everybody on our team that we ever coached, I wanted them to be selfish, self-absorbed and ambitious. Those things may sound horrible, but I knew if that person was that, I didn't want them to be self-indulgent where they put themselves in front of everybody else. But I wanted people that had those kind of aspirations to really accomplish something of significance. So, once they want to do that and you make it about them and their development, I don't think it's a whole lot different. And sometimes it takes tough love. But what I think's happening right now is I think there's some coaches that are afraid to coach. They're afraid if they get on a guy or they make a guy do right or they make them do the right thing, that he's going to get pissed off and leave. Right, I mean, when they used to come to my office, I don't want to sound arrogant about this. But when I got and everybody in the building knew that I could always say you want to transfer. He's going to take you by the hand and walk your ass down the hall to the A.D.'s office and say, "Sign him up." Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wasn't going to kiss their ass to keep him to stay. And I would say to the player, I'd say, "You know what? We'll get a better player than you out of the portal." They didn't know what to say. So good. Oh, yes. So to answer your question, I think that yes, the players are different. But I still think the players want the same things that they always wanted. They want to play in the NFL someday, they want to graduate someday, they want to create value. But it's no different than your kids. I mean, you're going to make your kids happy or you're going to make them do what's right. Right. Mama's always going to want to make them happy. You've got to step up and say, "No." This is what you have to do to do it right. And this is what it takes to do it right. And you have to confront and demand people to be able to do that. And if they know you care about them and have their best interest in mind, they're going to respond to that. I always had guys set goals for themselves. And then I would just go to them and say, "Hey, how's this kind of behavior going to help you accomplish the goal that you have?" And the guy put his head down and say, "It's not." And then I would say, "Well, why are you doing it?" So they would change. You've said this a lot with the ambitious and self-driven and guys who are focused on being the best players that they can be in the world. Those are the guys you want. And it resonates so much with me because I've been around other coaches where there was a phrase that a coach I played for used. And it wasn't like a main thing. It was just like a thing of the day where he's just trying to get a motivational. And Oombu too. And it was like, the phrase was, "I am because we are." And in the meeting, I'm just listening to this. I just like, I was so upset with it because I'm like, "This is putting the onus." If I am because we are, then what is my accountability in the ownership of what's. I put it on everybody else. No, fuck that. We are because you are. We are because. The team is only as good as each one of us are individually. And it was just this little thing, but that's where I feel like, I don't know. I'll go on, and this is why I love listening to Nick talk. I mean, Coach Saban, it all resonates so much with me. I don't know if it's the Americanism in it. There's an ownership in it, an individualism. I'm serious now. It gets me fired the fuck up. I'm with you, 100%. I say all the time when I give a speech. Because everybody says, "What do you do to make the team?" "Tell me how you made your team." And I would say, "Well, you heard the phrase, "There's no I in team." And then I say, "Yeah." And I say, "But there is an I in win." "The individual's made the team what it is." Yeah, that's true. I love that. Well, Coach, you had. So, you already talked about being with. Being working with Coach Bella Check up in Cleveland. We're Cleveland guys from the East Side. We actually used to go play hockey at Kent State growing up. So, we got some love for the Golden Flashes. In terms of your. Like, the coaches that you've worked with, and I'm sure you've gotten hit with this before, but I'm dying to know. The demeanor is very. It's not very similar. It's kind of similar to Bella Check's very. The strength in how you talk and how your presence is. In terms of coaches that you've worked with, who was the biggest impact from just your upbringing in the coaching world? Well, look, I learned from all the coaches that I coach with. Some things that I would think were good. Some things that I would say. I don't necessarily think I'd ever want to do that. But I would say, you know, George Perlis was great when I was defense recording at Michigan State. You know, I probably learned the most from Bella Check because of the organization that he had. And the one thing I learned from him that was very helpful is he defined everything in the organization. In other words, we didn't just. When we were looking at players for the draft, we had critical factors for every position. Size and speed for every position. Character and intelligence for every position. And so you knew what you. Like, if we were going after a corner, we wanted six foot, 185, run less than four or five. And so. And then here were the critical factors. You got to be able to play the ball in the deep part of the field. You got to be able to play the band of men. You got to be able to tackle. Now, we could go take 25 physical skills that it takes to do that. But those three things were critical flaws if a guy couldn't do it. See the ball go up? This guy's fast. He can cover and do all this stuff. And he can't judge a ball. And a guy catches it. Well, that's a fate of flaw. But he did that for every part of the organization. And you knew exactly what was expected of you because your job was defined in terms of what was expected of you. So I used a lot of those same things. And it really is helpful because people know what you expect. I think so many times of coaching and so many coaches that I work for, they assume that you knew what they wanted. But they never really told you what they wanted. If that makes any sense. Man, it makes sense. So that kind of organization, I think, helped me tremendously. And then the way we prepared for a game. I did it the same way. We used the same evaluation system for players. But what we did Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday was the same thing we did in Cleveland when I was at the Browns. We worked on short yardage and go long. And first and 10 second along on the first day. Third down red area the next day. Two minute, two point plays the next day. I mean, it was, and everybody in the organization knew exactly what to expect when they came and sat their ass in the meeting for that day. Yeah. You know, I mean, it was so defined. Machine, man. And I think that kind of routine makes people more comfortable. And they also are more confident because they know what to expect. And they know what to expect to them. So I just, I mean, that was probably the most impactful thing. That's so, that's so cool to hear though. Yeah, I think that's awesome. And I think the other thing that stands out whenever I hear you talk is just your demeanor. And I think about where you're from in West Virginia. And all these coaches that I'd like really enjoy. like the Youngstown area West Virginia. There's a similar demeanor there and a way about you guys that I feel like just resonates for whatever reason with players. Would you agree with that? Is there something to like those areas that just make great football coaches? I don't know. Uh, I don't know. You guys come from a tough part of town on the east side over this. I got my car stolen when I was recruiting there. I took off the afternoon and jumped in a nice screw. John, how are you? That's crazy. I've gotten a car stolen from the east side before two goats, right? It was Jason's car, actually. It was, but I do think that I think growing up, like I grew up in a coal mining town. Yes. And, you know, the sort of culture that the people have, you know, the work ethic, the kind of people they are family. And it just, I think all of that is helpful in being a good teacher and a good coach and caring about other people having compassion for other people, accountability, you know, not being satisfied so easily. I mean, these are all things that I grew up with that, you know, that when you start coaching, those three things are pretty important so that you don't feel like you're rust on your laurels. You want to keep trying to find a better way. You treat people the right way. I just think when you come from those kinds of core values, it really helps to become a good teacher. Absolutely. Thank you. Well, Jason just went into the hall of fame with another legendary West Virginia coach. He was on the basketball side though, the Huggie Bear. Bob Huggies. When I coached at West Virginia, he was a GA. I know why. So hot dogs downstairs and the little concession stand that he has. He's a great one though. Absolutely. Legend. He brought Cincinnati so much so much excitement and obviously West Virginia as well when he wouldn't get got back there. He was, I think he's actually told the story of how I like to say I got recruited by West Virginia, but he tells it that I recruited West Virginia and coach Huggies as the flip side of things. If you could tell, he had very much the similar core values. It felt like his team was a family, but he ran a, he made sure he was tough love and you got better every single day and you were tough as nails, man. Yeah. I mean, sometimes as a coach, you know, you have to get people to do things that is in their best interest and to benefit them that they really don't think is important for them to do. And then you have to do that. And he had a way of doing that. There's no doubt. And that's why he had so much success for so many years. Thank you, George Sponsor. All state checking all state first could save you hundreds on home insurance. That's right. Not checking if the gutters are clear before the first big rainstorm. That waterfall coming down the side of your house at 2 a.m. is going to have the neighbors thinking you installed a decorative fountain. Yeah. Checking first is the right move. So check all state first for a home insurance quote. You can save you hundreds. You're in good hands with all state. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability all state, North American insurance company and affiliates Northbrook, Illinois. All right, coach. We're running a little bit towards the end of this. We do want to get to some of the players you coach and play people that you've been with. We had an idea for we're going to name some players or coaches you might have worked with and you give us a story or some type of tidbit sound good. Yeah. Oh, I can't wait. Well, let's start with one of my former teammates, Jalen Hertz. Yeah. Well, Jalen is one of my all time favorites. Not because of how he played. But the guy 26 and 2 is a starter. It's taken out the national championship game and halftime 2 goes in. He supported 2. He stayed there the next year as a backup just so he could graduate, worked on becoming a better passer reading, processing better, more accurate, all that because that's what he needed to do. And when he graduated, he needed to go someplace else for a 50 year came to see me. We decided for him to go to Oklahoma. But the thing that I love about Jalen the most is how he handled the disappointment as a great competitor of getting taken out of the game and then becoming a 26 and 2 starter that was a backup for a whole year. And when two I got hurt, went into one of the SEC championship games the next year. So the way he handled that, man, I'm telling you that's that's class and it's carried. Yes, absolutely. Give me a good story on King Henry, Derek Henry. You know, Derek was when he was a freshman and you know, Derek played in his little school in Florida. It's outside of Jacksonville, some place. I can't even tell you. I went to a small school and so we're doing a glitch drill in fall camp and he's a freshman. And he can't figure out who to block. The guys are running free in the A gap and shit. I said, you know, you got to block this guy. It's this protection, whatever. And he looked at me. He said, I played high school football. All they did was turn around and toss me the ball and tell me to run with it. Anything about any of this shit that you're telling you to teach me, but what a hard work and guy though. And such a positive guy. I mean, it would be a hundred degrees in Alabama. We're in fall camp and I would walk when the guys are doing flex and asking how they were doing. Every day I would ask Derek Henry, how you doing today? Glad to be your coach. I mean, I don't care how hard it was, how hurt he was, how tired he was, whatever. It was always glad to be here. And he's always always positive. And, you know, we have a foundation and we do a whole bunch for a whole bunch of kids and the first day of practice still, and even though I'm not the coach, we do a thing in the stadium where we bring all these kids in, like a hundred kids, special needs kids, all kinds of kids. And Derek used to come to that when he was a player. He's in camp now at Baltimore. He gets on the big screen, buys every one of those kids a book bag, a backpack with school supplies and gets on. Congratulations to all the kids and all that. I mean, you're talking about a great human being. I mean, he's a great competitor and what a career he's had. And, you know, coming out of high school, most coaches didn't think he could play running back. They were talking to him about playing an outside backer and all that. Yeah. And, you know, my thing when I was recruiting a guy, I'd ask him, "Well, you want to play?" And he'd say, "Run back." I said, "Okay, you get to play running back." If I think you know, you can't play running back, I'll come and talk to you about it and tell you what I think might be better for you. But other than that, you play what you want. Yeah, that's how we got him. There you go. Good recruiting. What about my man, Landon Dickerson. Give me something on old diction. Oh, man. What a competitive guy. But did you ever see the picture? All right. The guy gets an ACL. Yes. And I don't know if it was the SEC Championship game or the first round of the playoffs, but he's like a week or two out of surgery. So we play a high state in the championship game and we're getting ready to kneel on the ball and the score is like, I don't know, 35, 14 or something. And he comes up to me and he says, "Coach, I want to go into game. Were you playing me in the game?" He said, "I put all year so that we could play in a championship game." I said, "Hey, man, you're two weeks out of ACL." He said, "You need to kneel on the ball." So I put him in for two plays. And when the horn blows and the game is over, he comes running at me and lifts me up. That's a big man. It's so happy that he got the plan again. Two weeks out of ACL surgery. You talk about tough guy now. Yes, tough guy. Great competitors. And I love that guy. I got to ask you about one more high-smotrol-free winner out of Detroit, Michigan. Mark Ingram, one of my favorite people ever, one of the most entertaining human beings I've ever ran into. Well, Mark and I are still close, you know, to this day. I mean, he's always trying to beat me and golf. He's got a big old slice on him, doesn't he? He can hit it a long way. It doesn't always go straight. I try to convince these young bucks that I play golf with that it's not based on handicap. It's based on age. I'm getting shots because I'm 75 years old, not because of my handicap. Mark doesn't buy that. I can tell you a funny story about Mark though. When I went to to recruit Mark Flint, Michigan. All right, I was at Michigan State. When I was a defensive coordinator when his dad was playing my Andre Ryzen and Big Mark everybody calls him or plan a Michigan State or George used to go to Europe every summer And I was left in charge and in those days, you know, you get 18 credits a summer school to get eligible Well, these two guys usually needed a lot of credits in summer school Get eligible So only way I could track them down as I knew who big marks girlfriend was So I would call her and say where are these guys at tell me where they're at and should should tell me and I go find I'm taking the classmate and go to class take a test. Whatever Little Mark I'm sitting talking to the mama. I don't know if that's who I used to be calling a Michigan State I get a two-hour recruiting pitch and she's looking to me and and at the end She just gets a big smile on her face And she looks at me and she says I was who you used to call the family Absolutely a legendary story, but it's great. I love Mark He was a great competitor great player had a great career doing a great job now on TV So I'm happy We got to our we got to ask section coach We got three more questions for you all six episodes of your documentary saving her out now Inavailable on ESPN. It's fantastic. I love the Jalen hurts section as somebody who played with them Very similar to what you just went into on the podcast right here, but Looking back at it. What is what is your favorite part or favorite parts? You know, I watched a rough cut before they did it. I haven't kind of watched it in sequence now All together But you know my whole thing about the whole thing and because I didn't want to write a book And I didn't want to do that they kind of talked me into it And I said well then I want this to be Something that people can get something out of and I wanted to be a tribute to the players and the coaches Who contributed to the success for so many years and if we can do Something like that, then I'm interested in doing it. So what I hear from people is I think they did a good job with it And I'm happy that they did Recruit one Kelsey me or Jason who you're going with I'm taking you both I mean That's right. I'm taking you both you guys are great competitors You had great careers for a long time and you're both made out of exactly what we've been talking about here You know the kind of piece that you want in the organization the kind of people that are gonna Impact and affect other people in a positive way because you're great competitors And you're gonna work hard and do what you have to do to help you team be successful. I mean I'd recruit both of you I've recrued both of you right now if I'm a person. I don't know this backing hold up anymore All right, what let me ask you we ask all of our guests. They're welcome to the NFL moment. I was like, what is your welcome to coaching moment? You know, I never wanted to I never wanted to be a coach Okay, so Miss Terry and I got married when we were in college. She was a year behind me We promised our parents would both finish college. That's the only way they'd let us get married. So I'm playing baseball. It can't as well as football. We just lost in a tangerine bowl The Freddie Solomon was a quarterback for Tampa and we got to be like 21-20 or something and we come back I'm getting ready to go to baseball practice and Don James calls me in the off calls me in says he wants to talk to me And you know in those days when the head coach called you and you thought it was like going to the principal's office You know like what do I do wrong? And he sits down and he says I want you to be a graduate assistant and I say coach I don't want to go to graduate school and I want to be a coach. So why would I be a graduate assistant and he said Your wife's got another year of school. You can't really go take a job anywhere. So what why don't you just Get your master's degrees going to be helpful to you regardless of what you do So Gary Pinkle, Dom Capers and myself were the three GAs And I do it for One year. Oh, I like it So I then I was a part-time coach Then he went to Washington and then Dennis Fitzgerald got the job hired me as a coach full-time I'm kind of just doing this because it's fun and it's a job and I like it and it's more like playing competing I like it. So when I'm 27 years old. I'm a secondary coach at Ohio State and I finally said Hmm, maybe maybe I should maybe this is something I ought to get into a little bit. Yeah, I'm trying to be really good at Not that I wasn't doing my best to do a good job at whatever I was doing, but So that's kind of how this whole thing happened and then we won the championship in 1987 at Michigan State Big 10 championship each Southern County Rose Bowl had the number one defense in the country And I was a defense coordinator and I tried to get I tried to get the Kent State Y'all The guy away which may be maybe the worst job in America And and I didn't I said I'll never be a head coach I'm going to the NFL because in those days you can make a little more money coaching than the NFL So that's what I went to the Houston Oilers, and then two years later. I went to Toledo as the head coach so That's kind of my coaching story of How did I get without it in the coach? That is so good. That is so good. Oh Well coach, we can't thank you enough for hopping on with us. Seriously. We love watching everything you're doing on college game day You're your documentary series out is fantastic. Everything you're doing man. We just love What you represent for the game of football and life really so thank you for hopping on with us Well, I appreciate it. I love doing it. I don't do podcast. I mean this may be the second one I've done in my life. I refuse to do it, but my daughter Loved you guys and she convinced me that I should do this and I So I wanted to do it for you guys, but I just want to leave a message out there for everybody else. I'm not doing this shit anymore Go check out Sabin on ESPN you can catch coach this Saturday out in South Bend, Indiana, and now you'll never catch them again on a podcast Another episode of new heights. Thank you to coach Nick Sabin You check him out every Saturday on college game day as well as all episodes of Sabin are streaming now on ESPN And ESPN what a guy once again new heights a wonder show brought to you by all state You're in good hands with all state follow the show and all social media add new heights show with 1s for fun clips throughout the week We're gonna have a bunch of good ones from Sabin and thanks for our new heights production team We love you guys and we love you 92% of us for tuning in. Hopefully you guys enjoyed this one. Enjoy the weekend guys We'll see you next Wednesday You