Nick Jonas | The Rejections Behind His Biggest Breakthroughs

Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day-gum v-grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. I was told upon asking if I could self-tape for it, that they didn't want to see a quote "genous brother" for that role. We're so fearful that people wouldn't want to work with us because of the stigma around being a boy band or a Disney Channel act, whatever. The fear of rejection was so great. You didn't even want to ask. That was changed. Two days after I cut the vocal for Chains, and they said I could have the record. I got in the room with no one in sign, and we wrote jealous. Masking insecurity as confidence is so common in any creative industry. What inspires you at this point to keep going? If I can do things that create that environment for people where there's joy and a community experience, I think I've done my job. Ladies, gentlemen, everyone in between. Welcome to "Unfamous," the podcast where we talk about the unsung and un-famous stories of your favorite pop culture creations. I am Justin Tranter, and I am here today, my dear friend and collaborator, because this podcast is about collaboration. You want to know only Nick Jonas? Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. We met in, I think, 2014. I think that sounds about right. 2014. When did "Jellis" come out? First time we wrote together was Felix, as part of an apartment in North Hollywood. Yeah, we wrote a song that I think was pretty good, however, it didn't make the album. It did not. No. But I was thrilled to get to work with you, and then I think we did a bunch more sessions after that, and it wasn't until, I think, if I remember this correctly, close, and actually a memory that I had last night that I was like, "We got to speak about that tomorrow." That same day, you and Julia played me close. You also played me. That's just the way you make me feel. Which ended up with tonight Mone, which by the way, this has never been spoken about publicly. It's the perfect time to do it. Let's fucking go. I love that song. Yeah. I can't remember if I cut it or not, but I think you cut it. I think I did, but I was so excited about "Close," because it was redefining my sound. It was brooding, but hooky. It's still one of my favorites. I was in such a season of co-writing so much of the stuff that I was doing. When you guys just played me a finished record that I thought would have been in honor to get to record, I was thrilled. Yeah. That song ended up with tonight. It sure did. Many years later. Many years later. Or I think three years later. But at that time of my life, things were moving so fast that three years felt like 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. And that is also something I wanted to talk about of how you are someone who's such a great songwriter, but also if someone just plays you a great record, you are happy to just fucking sing it. Which, if Dolly Parton, one of the greatest songers of all time, can also just cut a record. It's a lost art that I think pop artists feel like if they aren't doing everything then they're not succeeding. And I've said it a thousand times on this podcast, no one's mad that Meryl Streep didn't write the script. Mmm. I like that. So, for you, that was such an impressive moment when you came in because you were busy as fuck. You were probably writing somewhere else in town and you said to us, yeah, just start some ideas for me and we played you close and make me feel. And you just cut it obsessed with close and just cut it. And there's also another tidbit of trivia about close that I don't even know. We've definitely never talked about this. Maybe, correct me if I'm wrong, there's been many drunk and dinners, so I could, we maybe have talked about it. But Julia cut that demo because even though we were writing for you, her vocals just like is pop perfection speaking of Julia Michaels. And her tone sounded so good on it that you were like, this should probably be a duet. This should probably be a thing. And someone at your label was like mentioned to Julia and her team, like maybe there's a before Julia put out issues. Maybe there's a world where Julia stays on the record and she'd never released anything. And so it was like just someone just mentioned like, I don't know, that could be kind of crazy. And then the day she found out that it was going to be Tovlo, as a songwriter, she was so happy. But then it's like the thought of maybe becoming an artist, but she had resisted for so long. The thought of that maybe happening that it didn't is what made her go, fuck it, I have to put out a song. Wow. Did you know that? I didn't know that. It's literally what made the seed being planted in her brain that maybe she would be on a song as a singer. It was that song made her go, fuck it, I'm going to release issues. And then she was not as well as the best new artist and issues as a monster record. Julia came out and sang with us on the last tour, the Greenish from my hometown tour. She did issues and then she stayed on it did close. Oh, no way. Which is a really special moment. I think, you know, 10 years after the record came out, nine or 10 years, to have that moment was pretty special. Tovlo, obviously crushed it, did her thing. And the her lyric rewrites to that second verse were beautiful, really beautiful. But you know, Julia is obviously an immense talent and she does have that voice that, you know, you hear it and it just, it sells the record as an artist. It's like, it just kind of jumps out at you and there've been a lot of songs that, you know, we've all written together or that I've heard of yours and hers that do that. Yeah. When you are meeting new co-writers, what is it about a new co-writer that makes you go like, okay, I want to do more days, okay, what is it in it? Is there a moment in a session? Is there what makes you want to be like, this is a good collaboration to keep exploring? You know, it's funny because I, I didn't really co-write in the first chapter of our, our story outside of the brothers and one or two people who were in the mix, those people being Greg Garbowski, who, you know, now is sort of on the sort of more creative side and management team, John Fields, who was producing the records. Yep. And then the occasional songwriter that would, you know, be paired with us by way of our, in our team or, and so that was like, just blue, wrote on one of the records, the self-titled album with the brothers and then Kathy Dennis came in and, and wrote a song with us, which was amazing. Yeah. And icon. I just performed at a charity concert with Kathy Dennis and to hear her sing, can you out of my head Kylie, which she wrote, toxic, which she wrote and I kissed a girl, which she co-wrote. It's like, this woman has written three career-defining songs for people. It's really crazy. And that was the first sort of real professional songwriter that I was blue, obviously, in John Fields. But I'm saying like a person that was just paired with us in a session. And I remember thinking, oh, this is, this is very different, but I was inspired by the process. Yeah. Someone coming with, with, you know, ideas that were, were sort of written down and were, you know, had a process to it, whereas up to that point, I was just working off of inspiration, being a teenager going through things and then just writing about it. So when I got into that next phase of the first kind of solo album, 2014, 2015, what I looked for most in collaborators was, was people that understood the responsibility to try to do something commercial. But also. Watch and setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Was experiencing new things and feelings and having new experiences that I wanted to articulate through the music. Yeah. And those that were patient enough to, to have that dialogue was the key. And in addition to that, the vibe check has to be right. Right. And so, you know, there's so many that I can think of in that era of my, my sort of songwriting and, and working on those solo albums that, that did that. To name a few, you know, Simon Wilcox, of course, you at the top of my list and, and Nolan Lambrose and, and, you know, Dwayne Whitmore, there's a bunch that really sort of gave me the, the space and obviously, a huge one in that was Jason Evergane, yep, who, I think, you know, checks the vibe check box so hard and it's like the best hang, sometimes it was more about that than getting a song done, yep, and, and, and it was a really exciting time to discover myself and, and my, my new, songwriting process with always people who are just patient and kind and really inspiring to be around. When you walk into that, making that first album, and you're super fans who might be watching this, have maybe heard this, but I actually do not know the answer, so I'm asking genuinely, actually, let's focus on Nolan and Simon, who you wrote Jealous with, which obviously was a life changing moment for you. When you're walking into those rooms, perceived as a Jonas brother, perceived as like this Disney product, but as we've all learned, you're a real fucking writer, you're a real musician. What is going through your head of like, how do I get these people to like, know that I'm more than a Disney product? And we all love Disney. We've worked for Disney. This is not Disney. So work with Disney. It's leg. But how do you, when you walk into that room, is it in your head that like, are you thinking about stuff like that, or do you just try to get rid of it? Of course. I think what's interesting is that we had this strange kind of duality, right? We were making these records and really the creative driving force, which a lot of people didn't know, which is fine. Right. I'm not bitter. 15 years later, it's fine. We were doing that, and the driving force creatively, and in one sense, being recognized by our peers. We were the same year that we were nominated for best new artists, the Grammys, and that album was really finding its legs in culture. We were shooting a Disney channel TV show, where the majority of the music was written by folks in song deals, right, little inside baseball, inside the music industry. Yeah. People love this show on our podcast. Go for it. Basically, what would happen is in order to control the majority of the IP for a Disney property, like Jonas, the TV show, or Jonas L.A., or Camp Rock, and we've all done this. It's not like a bad thing, which I think is important to frame it. They'll just make a deal to basically have a writer write a song for the thing that is owned by Disney. And they get a check to write the song, and it's a fee, and that's it. No royalty structure, really. So this is a thing you agree to. You're not forced to do it. It's a thing, right? It's like, let me get the check today, and just that's it. Exactly. Because, you know, as we all know, there's a folder in my phone of maybe a thousand songs that have never come out in sessions that I've worked in, and they may be great. Songs are decent, but it's just not the right thing. So if you're a working songwriter, go into a room and write a song that day, I guess that's a choice. What was happening is that the second season of TV show was happening, and they were like, we have all these sessions set up to write the music for this second season, because you guys were touring, just that the other. And I was like, I would really like to be a part of that. So I joined in these sessions and co-wrote some of the songs for the TV show. So we had this weird thing of like critical acclaim and respect, and then also, you know, doing something for a demo that was obviously younger in the children's TV show. And inherently, sort of manufactured. It's for a TV show. It's got a sound a certain way. It is what it is. There's this specific structure. There's this audience. There's this thing. And it's the whole other thing. It's the whole other thing. But it is a part of it, right? And so I think when I got into that phase of the solo era and all that, I was eager to prove myself, but also really wanted to have something break through and be commercially successful, because I hadn't experienced that in so long, you know, the period after the Jonas Brothers album called Lines, Vines and Trying Times, which came out, you know, in the summer of '09. And it, first week, sales were really strong, but not as strong as the last album. Right. And I remember one of the label execs called our dad was a co-manager and said something to the effect of, you know, I think the writings on the wall, like, the guy should take a break for five or six years and then come back, and it was like, damn, you go from, you know, that's the new artist and the highest of highs to, you know, just because it was slightly underperformed. The album that previously came out, it's over. Wow. But he was kind of right. And that's the. Did your dad tell you that? We did, not in that moment, it was already kind of a strange time, you know, we were like uneasy about the future because we had isolated so much in our creative process and really been in our bubble. Yeah. In about 2011, 12 when we started working on new music again before the band broke up, instead of saying, we don't have the magic sauce right now for whatever reason, probably because we, we were not in sync as a group, but we don't have the magic sauce. Let's go work with somebody or with people to expand that. We were so fearful that people wouldn't want to work with us because of the stigma around, you know, being a boy band or a Disney Channel act, whatever, that we, we further isolated. Yeah. I wish, imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting mist from Mabelie, New York, Zelda mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Yeah, it's Mabelie. I mean, high science 2020. So I guess I can't say I wish we would have done that, but I wonder what would have happened had we met or had, you know, we taken a swing to say, okay, maybe he won't do it, but would Max Martin take a meeting and work with us, but the fear of rejection was so great. He didn't even want to ask. He didn't want to ask them, we're just like, we're just going to do it ourselves. We started disguising our insecurity with like confidence and taking control of the creative process even further, which inevitably caused a rift in the band and the breakup. Wow. I don't think I ever knew that story. Yeah. And I think there's a huge lesson to learn in that of masking insecurity as confidence is so common in any creative industry. And for you to learn that lesson young, I think shows why you guys are still around. Yeah. I think so. And I think it when I started working on solo music, I remember the announcement about the band breaking up had just gone out. I got an email from David Massey, who signed me when I was a kid. And then, you know, we were dropped from that label, went to Hollywood records and that's when we found our success, but he was always a champion and a real support. Yeah. And the email, the day that the announcement went out about the brothers breaking up, said, how are you? I'd like to see you, you know, can we meet up? And so I met him for lunch. And then he was like, well, you said you've been working on some music. Let's go back to my office and play some records and basically like clear the schedule for the rest of the day and just sat with me and, you know, let me play some of this music. And I was at this point so discouraged by kind of all the things that were happening. The fact that music wasn't really connecting with the brothers. Obviously the band broke up and all this stuff. And so I kind of did the opposite. I, I met, I disguised my insecurity and vulnerability as, as like, well, I'll tell you what I said. I was like, I just want to go into like a pseudonym and like, not be that guy anymore and like try to do something different. And he was like, but don't you want to be the biggest artist in the world? But did you have a pseudonym? Please tell me you remember what it was going to be. I, I tried to think of something but every time, every time I like had something that felt maybe coming close to right, I was like, this is so dumb. I was like, what am I doing? Okay. Okay. Um, I think one was like, it's like, like, uh, monster or something like this. Like, I've really like left, you know, kind of indie, whatever bond is the sweetest people in the music business. Yeah. Yeah. Monster. Yeah. Um, anyway, he was like, don't you want to be one of the biggest artists in the world? And I was like, sure, he's like, well, I believe you can be. And it's not about actually trying to become the biggest artist in the world. That is not the moral of this story. Of course. It's about someone who genuinely loves and cares about you and still in confidence in a time when you really need to hear it. Yeah. I could get emotional speaking about it because I love David Massey and appreciate those words because it really, it, again, it didn't make me think that's the mission now. That's right. That's the goal. Um, it was like, what if I, what if I just tried to go write some great songs and just gave this another shot? Yeah. And, and within a few weeks, I found myself in a room with you in North Hollywood with Felix. And then I think it was two days later, I was sent this record, um, by Jason Evigan. And the context I had was that this record was with some other artists, but they're going to let you cut a vocal on edge to see. And so I'm like, here we go. First of all, trying something I hadn't really ever done before, which is taking an outside record. Yep. But I was like, fuck it. Let's give it a shot. And that was Chains. And that sort of started the process. And two days after I cut the vocal for Chains, and they said I could have the record, I got in the room with Nolan and Simon. We wrote Jealous. Wow. So like all sort of happens so fast. So fast, yeah. Well, that was a crazy day for me because you were the first famous person I had ever written within the room. Because I follow up boy, I had cut a song, Kelly Clarkson had cut a song, but I'd never wrote with them. So it was like that. You were like my first famous person session. And I was like, broke his fuck, living in a two bedroom house with six people. And I was like, I'm in North Hollywood with Nick Jones. It was like a big upswing. That's so all those that all happen, Chains and Jealous. The same week. Wow. At the same time too, I got this script for the TV show that I desperately wanted to be in. And I was told upon asking if I could self-tape for it that they didn't want to see a quote, Jonas brother for that role, which then made me sort of go, kind of like the Julius story. I was like, yeah, screw that. I'm going to now I'm going to go even harder. So I think I wrote a letter to the showrunners agent or manager or somebody and was like, I really feel like I need to be seen for this and laid out why. And stress that I was like at a similar point in my life that the character is and I can bring a lot of heart to this. And so they let me read and eventually I got deep in the process and then booked the show. And now the showrunners are very good friend of mine. We're developing other projects together and to go from that rejection to kind of where we are now is I think a beautiful full circle thing. And that's been the story of I feel like my life and the brother's career is this idea that we've been met with a lot of rejection and obviously a ton of opportunity and a lot of good fortune. But there's a resilience to our thing that I think is part of what drives us and makes it work. And I also kind of feed off of it. How do you with that rejection in the back of your head and you go in the room and write jealous? Is had you been sort of over that hump because of the excitement of chains and David Massey's belief do you think that that's why you got to or just sometimes the song just happens? - Sometimes the song just happens. - Yeah. - We were working on a different song and as is the story with so many songs that we've written I feel like in different moments, you know, like we started on one thing that was pretty good, stepped outside, had a conversation just about life and then we're like, maybe that's where we should go. Went back in the room and started writing it. And I thought it was like, I thought it was good. But then I went and played it for Phil, our long time manager and he like jumped up and was like, you did it. You did it. I was like, what are you talking about? And he doesn't get excited about anything. - Right. - And again, it was someone else instilling that confidence. I was like, maybe, maybe yeah, I don't know. But I'm also, I'm a bad like first listen. Like I'm just terrible. And I'm gonna tell you a story that you've probably never heard. But it's like, I love being wrong. It's the headline of the story. And not that I didn't think it was gonna be successful or a hit, but I was like, but this was 2015, maybe 2014. Many New York and Joe's like, yeah, I just got back from Europe, I was writing with just Tranter. And he's like, I got this song, I think is really strong. I was like, let's hear it. And he played me cake by the ocean. And I was like, that's really, that's really good. He's like, what do you mean, really good? I was like, it's a great start. Like I think you guys are on to something. - Obviously when the song like sits at number one and you know, is the biggest hit of the year, he looked at me and he's like, it's a good start, huh? (laughing) He just never know, like it takes so many magical elements coming together, stars lining up for a thing to become as big as cake by the ocean. - Well, and that one is an interesting one because one, for me it was really early in my success. I'd only had one hit when I wrote that. And in the room I had the magic, it was like, what is going on, something crazy is happening. But then it's a song called Cake by the Ocean. - Yes. - I think it's, I think a lot of people were like, when I found out it was going to be the first single, I was like, well, I know this is special, but I never thought a major label would go, oh, a song called Cake by the Ocean. Where the first line is, oh no, why are you walking around like it's a funeral? I was like, I don't know how anyone is going to say, let's make this the first single, but thank God they did. - It's so funny, 'cause yeah, I recall Joe playing for me and thinking kind of the same thing. It's a really interesting title, but what does it mean? And it's just like, on a second list and I was like, oh, man, this is a smash. Like you just, it always takes my ear a second. And then times when I think a song is going to be, hey, this is what drives me nuts, it's a writer. It's like, if you come out of the room feeling like, oh, we got one today, and it just doesn't do anything. - Well, and now we live in the upside down, where if the bridge of something goes viral, and now there's a song that's a hit, that no one with. - Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day comfy grip. Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. - Maybe it's Maybelline. - That you could have been in the music business for 50 years with the best track record of all time, and no one can call it hit anymore. - Yeah. - That's over. - Has that changed your process? - There's seconds where it could, but I force myself to focus on the positive and go, well, now there's just a full freedom. So let's just do exactly what we want. Because what I used to be able to call a hit, 'cause one, there's a magical feeling that is just the X factor of it, but I used to really be able to sense that, especially while you're writing it, you just feel it. And then there's structural things that it's hitting, and then there's where as an artist at in their career, and blah, blah, blah. Now the biggest artist in the world can put out an entire album and no one knows it came out. - Yeah. - Like, so it has changed my process in the sense of I focus on the positive and just go, let's do it. Or I'm spending so much time with artists who have 200,000 monthly listeners because it doesn't matter anymore. - Yeah. - If that, there's this new girl Anina I'm working with. Just a couple days, we're early in it, but it's A-N-N-I-I-N-A finished artist. I think she has 20,000 monthly. And I don't care because her chance of going viral is just as high as your chance of going viral. - Yeah. - We are in the fucking upside down. So it's like, whether it's Rose Gray, who I just executive produced her new album, first single drop, to club to your arms, check it out, embarrassing plug. Nick Jonas hasn't heard it yet, but he's gonna love it. - I'm gonna love it. - It's like who, so I've focused on the positive of how it's changed my process and go fuck it. Let me just do exactly what I love because when I first got my first hit 2014 for the six years until TikTok took over in 2020, I could like, I could call every hit and that's over. So that's just fucking party. - Yeah. - Is, is, at this point in your career, but more than your career, as a creative person who has executive produced awesome things, movies, and acted and written hit songs and been a part of this massive band that has turned into this like touring juggernaut. What do you need a song or a project to have for you to wanna actually engage? - Well, I think there's something about people gathering together in a place, whether that's a concert venue or a movie theater, even at home watching something with their family and friends. If I can do things that create that environment for people, whether there's joy and a community experience, I think I've done my job. For instance, a song that we co-wrote was the opener of our last tour for many of the shows, "Love Me to Heaven," which loved that song so deeply. - Love that song and in that environment with whatever it is, 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 people singing that and feeling that energy and the vibrance of that song, and the story from it, for me, in the background, or what it was and then what it became. There was a different lyric and then we got together and made it about this feeling of being uplifted by the people. the person you love. Yeah. And it speaks to being the brother's relationship is based to me in pre. And then inherently the audience, I feel really latched on to those themes and it became like the theme for the night. Yeah. Which then led us to the special guests and like this feeling of community. And you know, that's when I've done that, right? And then on the film and TV side, you know, look at something like like Power Ballad, for instance, which is a movie that's, it's a little like a, you know, jewel box, like it's a beautiful little story that's contained to this thing. It's so good. Hello, my little un-famous friends. So the thing about the algorithm, low-miss algorithm is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, one of the old school YouTubers say like subscribe and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the un-famous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. Thank you. That asks so good. Some important questions about, you know, identity and meaning and self-worth and all the stuff. And getting to release that in theaters, because it's a smaller movie that could have very well just been on a streamer. But getting to do that, put it out in theaters and see people come together to experience that was was really special to me and I know Paul Rudd as well. And then the last example would be like the Christmas movie, which could have been a disaster. It was awesome. We slayed. And it was, it was so fun. And we've been explained that. Explain that back and up for one second. What in your mind goes this could be a disaster? Because there's a fine line between tongue and cheek and just bad. It's a very fine line. And there's also, you know, it's very self-aware. Like there's a lot of things about it that is shockingly when I read the first draft at the script, I was like, have the brothers read this? Basically just making fun of themselves in each other for 85 minutes. But I think the writers did an excellent job of getting the tone right and the balance of the humor and the heart. And then, you know, the key ingredient, which me and the brothers and I'm not just gassing you up, but like the key ingredient was the music has to be really great. We got to see if Justin will do it. And it was you were the first and only name that that came to mind because you get that balance of we're telling a story. We need the comedy. Right. But it also has to have this heart and feel like songs that could be played on the radio. So all the stars aligned on that one. And what I loved most just to land this playing as long one did answer is that I heard from so many people that they got together with their families over the holidays. Watch the movie and then either had like a healing experience with each other or just had a nice time with the people they love. Yeah. And that joy again was right at the center of it. And it's not to say that every project has to just be happy. Right. You know, I've written a lot of songs that are about some real stuff. Yeah. And there are films that are going to be heavy. But getting to bring people together is I think the key. Well, I think that is also like the when you called me about the Christmas movie, what I thought was so smart and self-aware, not in terms of the comedy of the script. That was a whole other version of self-aware. But the self-awareness of Disney's was started this for us. It would be so egotistical to think that we're above going back. I was like, that is so smart and also kind of like oddly beautiful of like as now fully grown adults who have done all these different things. Let's go make a Disney Christmas movie and go back to where it started. Yeah. I think the relationship, the long-standing relationship with Disney is something that I'm really grateful for because I think all of us have these things that in our youth were really proud of. And we wear as a badge of honor to be a fan of something to be interested in something. And then it's natural that as you're discovering yourself in your early adulthood, your early 20s, you sort of reject that and think it's not cool or whatever. What I've experienced, and I think a lot of people can probably relate to this, is that you get to 30 and you're kind of like, I am who I am and I don't care. And I love the things I love. That I loved as well. And it's not just because it's nostalgic, it's because it's comfortable, it's because you've had a lived experience with that thing. And I would describe, you know, our relationship, my relationship with Disney as kind of that. Yeah. Something that I was very proud to affiliate with in my teens. In my 20s, it's not that I resented it or didn't want to do it. It's just I had to go on my journey to of course figure out what it looked like to be an adult. Yeah. I think when I got married when I had my my daughter, you know, I'm now thinking about what can I bring into this world that she'll enjoy and that when she's growing up, she'll like in addition to the things I'm making for a more adult audience. Right. But it's it's really fun to kind of be a creative person with that lens now because it really shifts everything. Yeah. But also to it in the Chris's movie specifically and then we can stop talking about our fabulous Chris's movie, I couldn't believe like that I knew that you'd be into some of like the cooler, weirder things we were referencing in the music. Like there's the the ballad where like you guys almost get eaten by wolves. Yeah. It's like very like like I was super like Indie McGee guitar thing and I was like. It's a really cool song. Are let's just do it. I know that Nick and Joe are going to like it and let's see if Disney will like get on board with like a song that's very clear like an Indie pop song in the middle of the Chris's movie when they're about to be eaten by wolves and everyone's just like, yeah, that's great. And I was like, Oh, okay. They really they really did give us so much creative freedom. It was awesome, which was you know, I think the reason it worked is not because they let us do it. But because it was a real collaboration, we understood the assignment from them what the goals were and they trusted in the the collective to come up with something that felt authentic to us. Yeah. My favorite song, of course, from from the soundtrack is the home alone song. I mean, I think it's incredible. I think it's mine too. For everyone in the room who's not watched the Jonas Christmas movie, you're in trouble, first of all. Secondly, there's a scene where Nick playing obviously himself was in a fictional home alone musical in his 20s playing the 50-year-old dad. Yeah. And so we wrote a song for a fake home alone musical that I think we need to write a home alone musical now. You should. At this time, play Kevin. Yeah. I'll play Kevin. I'll play Kevin. And you had a cameo in the movie. I mean, yeah, I was I played piano in that song. Yeah, it was great. In a Brian Stone suit. It was fantastic. It was absolutely fabulous. You mentioned Power Ballad when you're approached with movie projects, which you do many of them. And someone says we kind of want you to play a character that in some ways is close to you just because the character was in a band when they were younger and now they're going solo and blah, blah. How do you when you get that script of something that is similar touch stones to your own life, but is not you? How do you what's your first thought? What's that that thing from is this play about? Yeah, from before. Yeah, that's kind of how it feels. You're like reading it and, you know, elements of the character definitely felt, you know, true to my lived experience. But I think what I resonated with most about the script when I first read it was this question of ownership. There have been a lot of times where knowingly and unknowingly, I have landed on another melody or a chord structure that was similar. As I think every songwriter has, when I say knowingly, obviously, this is the reference we're being inspired with this and we're going to interpolate it and reach out to the writers and make it deal all that stuff. Do it the right way because in the movie what happens is my character Danny Wilson has this great experience with Paul Rudd's character where they're, you know, hanging out drinking, smoking, vibing on music, sharing ideas. One of the ideas that's shared by Paul Rudd then becomes this global smash six months later that my character is released and taken full credit for. The way in which it works in the movie because John Cardney's such a great filmmaker is not that it is some devious plan, right? It's and we talked about this a lot. This how it could actually happen. Yeah, you're hanging out and I dig it shared. You sit down with a piano and you're just, and I've been here a million times, vibing, trying to think of melodies, you've been singing throughout the week in the shower in the car, and then you land on something and you go, "Oh, I must have thought of this previously." - Right. - The idea that it wasn't a devious plan and some intentional thing, but a situation that could happen, and then how my character's met with that moral dilemma, is the really interesting juicy part of it. - Yeah. - So I encourage people to go watch this movie because it's a fun, very funny ride, Paul road's amazing, but it's a really, especially if you're creative. It's a really interesting thing, and I think there's, the takeaway for me is that obviously everyone should get the credit that is for any composition that they've made, and also it's very possible to accidentally land on a melody. Well, there's also, when it comes to any sort of art form, there's a million, I'm like a huge dystopian post-apocalyptic geek, that's all I read, it's all I watch, it's all I care about, I just pray for the world to end, so I read about it. (laughing) So now, because the world is such a stressful, whenever the world is stretched out as a whole, there's so many more dystopian and post-apocalyptic things get greenlit in Hollywood. In fiction, it's kind of always happening. As like a geek, I can tell you, there's at least like 20 amazing dystopian books a year, but Hollywood greenlights these things, whether it's conscious or subconscious, when the world is stressed, they're like, we need the last of us, we need like, we need all these things about the world. - Disclosure day. - Disclosure day. Everything about us, all of everything ending. And it's like, who's to say, there's been a million movies about aliens landing on Earth, so are we all, is the next person who writes another movie about aliens landing, or about a pandemic wiping out 98% of people, is that theft? And the answer is no, it's just that there's certain things, there's certain tropes in movies and TV that we're very used to, but for some reason when it comes to music, the conversations get real tricky. - Yeah, real tricky. - It's a great point and there's only so many notes to play from. - Yeah. - Actually, it happened recently on my song Gut Punch. - Great, great song. - Thank you. - What happens is that you basically present your album to the universal music team, and they have a team of people, music college, that listen to every song and make sure that it's not unintentionally or whatever, interpolating or sounds like another song. And it passed, and then I was like, just give it one more go just to make sure, and Gut Punch was flagged that it sounded similar to the song "Possible." And so we obviously reached out to the writers, included them as writers of the song, and they, you know, are writers of the song, because the melody was close enough to it. And, you know, that is like, is that a song you had heard? Or is it just like, I guess I had heard it as someone, but I think it's just the fact that the chords land a certain way, the melody felt right, and it's one of those melodies that just kind of feels right over those chords. And, you know, these things can happen, and to your point about, you know, Hollywood, and we wouldn't say the same thing about a movie. If it happens to me, I think I'll be cool about it. Like a mess, it's an egregious thing. - Yeah. - And it has before. - It's happened to me where, which is there's like so many layers of this, I'm gonna try to tell it as quickly and as cleanly as possible. Me and BB Rexa wrote a song called "I'm a mess." "I'm a mess, I'm a loser, I'm a hater, I'm a user." And then her team, before it came out, was like, it's very similar to, "I'm a bitch, I'm a lover, I'm a child." Now, one's in a major key, one's in a minor key, I think, music theory geeks don't slay me in the comments. But it was like, okay, we're listing things that we are. And it's, I'm a mess, one syllable mess, I'm a loser, two syllables. I'm a bitch, one syllable, I'm a lover, two syllables. Okay, let's reach out. We reached out. There are writers on the song. Awesome, easy, lovely. I did love that song a lot when I was the kid. Yeah, kid, I was, I think I was like 17, but I'm quite old. But reached out, fine, then a year later, we get reached out to, before a tape McCray song comes out. And they're like, oh, we think we accidentally interpolated I'm a mess. And we're like, oh, well, we accidentally interpolated, I'm a bitch. So now on the tape McCray song, I'm a writer, BB's the writer, and then the Meredith Brooks and Shelley Piken of I'm a bitch, our writers on this tape McCray song. It's a party, it's party song. It's a party song. So I have a tape McCray cut because she accidentally interpolated us, I accidentally interpolated us all from that. But also it just proves it's a great melody and it's super hooky. And it's no one was doing anything right that was bad. Is that your strain just like, co-write, track, a cut you have? >> First, that's my strain just for sure. I mean, there's other really strange stories of like, I met Rojé, who's a big producer writer. I met him in an airport. And he was like, oh my god, it's so nice to finally meet you. We have a huge hit together and I was like, we do like change. And he was like, yeah, I'm the one who did the track with Rikki Reed on Halsey bad at love. And I was like, I knew that there was another writer on there because we wrote to a track that Rikki had for the most part made before me and Halsey showed up. But I didn't, Rojé hadn't had hits yet. So when I had to do like approve the original splits and saw his name, his name didn't ring any bells because I didn't know who it was. So that wasn't also funny, correct? Because now he's going on to be massive. And we had a hit song together before I ever met him. That's so funny. And we've still never written in the room together. We've tried. It just always doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. Yeah. What's your weirdest? I have a cut on Kelly Clarkson's album, not the most recent one, the one before. I was working with Jesse Shacken and I had started this guitar loop, like basically three guitar parts that loop together and create sort of one sort of chord structure. Didn't have any melodies or anything. And it was literally just four chords and a couple of guitar parts. And then I get an email from my publisher like two years later and it's like, hey, I just want to make sure you go with these splits for this Kelly Clarkson. And to make it even one layer of stranger, like yeah, it's you, Jesse, Kelly and Steve Martin. I'm like, he's playing banjo on the song, so I'm like, what is, I thought it was like a weird dream. But yeah, I've got to cut with Steve Martin and Kelly Clarkson. Oh, my, it's just, it's an album, that is amazing. Well speaking of odd co-rides, what is something about you as a songwriter and you as an artist that you don't think the world knows about you? About your process or about, yeah, well, it's funny because I'd be curious to actually hear what you might think. So maybe after you can chime in, if you've, you know, we've written so many songs together, I don't, you know, you've had a real window into it. But I think, I think they may not know that I am like obsessed with the math problem of songwriting, two degree that like sometimes I think I may, I may forget to just let go and be inspired and just go with what feels right. Because I'm like thinking about, lyrically the math, when I say math, I mean like, are we, are we completing this idea? Is it, is it fully, are we setting up the chorus the best way possible? You know it. And it's sort of a thing that I think has been really helpful at times, but also as I continue to try to grow and get better each day, I'm like, I need to care a little bit less, yeah, less like fragile about it. Because the times I've just let go and done that, I feel like the results have been great, but, but it's easy to get kind of too obsessed with, with that thing. Do you, do you feel that way at times? I think that my superpower is just getting things across the finish line in like a sense of excitement and joy. Yeah. So I let everybody else obsess. Yeah, well, I take care of the macro, whether that's the macro of the songwriting, or it's the macro of the vibe. Because also I'm. It's blocking the tiny math of the melodies and everything normally quietly. And I don't ever bring it up unless I can't get it there without people noticing. Yeah. Because I try really hard to make sure that every melodic phrase, each section, starts in a different spot. I want to make sure that the rhymes sound is different for each section of the song. And I try to do all of that internally to not put math on the vibe. But sometimes you have to just stop and go, guys, we've literally like the entire song is like an A rhyme. And there's only so many rhymes for a day. We have to stop before we die. Sometimes you have to put your foot down. I think what people would maybe not know about you as a writer is how much I think a lot of people assume that when people are known as singers, that all we're really thinking about is what we're singing, which is the most important part of a song. However, you, it's all important and you care deeply about the instrumental slash track side of a record. I think you can, in a great way, you can become very obsessed with, I want a song that feels like this sonically and you will fight in a good way to get that sound. I think that people might not know because I think most people just assume, oh, a producer's handling all of that, but you play everything and you are very in tune to what you want something to sonically feel like, which I think always, that always surprises me when singers are like that. Because for the most part, we aren't. It's true. It's like, well, what am I singing? I just get to meet you. There's a new joke. There's a new bit that I've been working on. Try out a new, try out a new, friendly crowd. When the team's like, hey, we'd just like to know X and it could be anything. It's like, what time would you like to do this thing, the interview, or get to the airport, whatever it is? And if I'm like, I don't, if I just don't know or I don't have the answer, I just say, I just sing. That's all I do. I just sing. Yeah. But I think that, obviously, it's your new bit, but there is something to that. When people ask me what I'm doing tomorrow, I'm like, do you, if I had my schedule for tomorrow memorized, I would have a mental breakdown. Yes. I need to just go and do my thing. What else has to know what my schedule is tomorrow else? There's too much. I completely agree. I do know what I'm doing tomorrow, though. What are you doing? I'm going to Disneyland. No way. Taking my daughter to Disneyland. Wow. Just you and her. No, it's a family, Vince and me, Priyanka and our daughter and then we have some friends in from India, from out of town, their six-year-old son. So a lot of sunscreen and hydrate. This is the most hard-hitting question of this, of this very important podcast. How does it feel being married to the most attractive person alive? And I am as gay as they come. But when I see your wife, especially in person, I'm just like you are, it is the top of, it's the top of the mountain. How does that feel? It's not saying that you're not beautiful, but there's a, there's a, no, she's, she's not the top of the mountain. Yeah, I am, you know, often sort of taken aback by just how beautiful she is. And, you know, the powerhouse of a person that she is, every day, you know, she's not just handling, you know, being a mother and a wife and support to, to all of the family. She's amazing in that aspect. But then she's like running a massive operation, both as an actor, a producer, a, you know, a brand ambassador for a couple of the biggest brands in the world and I'm doing it all with such, you know, kindness and enthusiasm. Yeah. It's, it's pretty profound and, and yeah, then on top of that, she's, she's stunning. It's really crazy. It's when I saw you guys dodgers, the show at the Dodger Stadium a couple of years ago and she was like, chilling backstage in like a leather dress. I was just like, but I, that was supposed to be me. I should look like that in a leather dress. I don't, I look that good in a leather dress on a Tuesday at Dodgers. I know. It's not, it's not fair. It's not fair. It was deeply emotional. You should have told her. It's really, it's really exciting. I had it covered. Don't worry. Yeah. Yeah. Morgan couldn't speak. Yeah. Morgan. And I mean this with the utmost respect. But I have never, I understand what it's like to be a man. I think I've never had a visceral, visceral reaction to a woman like that. And let me tell you when she hugged me the way I leaned into that hug, I was like, nice to meet you. No, I can just die. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She smells great too. Yeah. Superstar. Superstar family going to Disney. And this will air after your Disney. So you won't be, you won't be, we can't, the people can't stalk you. But they will see you pretty quickly. They'll. Yeah. But the key is, you know, to go hard with the merch, explain. So like where the Disney hat, where the, the shirt, because then you sort of blend in. Love it. If you're like sunglasses on trying to be like incognito, you stick out like a sore thumb. Yeah. The other thing is that I could always be like, no, I'm just the, the character at the park of Nick Jonas, not the real. That has that ever happened to someone think you're the character. It hasn't, but I, I have seen kids, you know, because the, the core of our audience is, you know, 20s to, to 40, kind of our ages, me and the brothers ages. And now there's this whole new generation of fans because of, you know, our TV show is being re-aired on Disney plus or that Christmas movie. People being reintroduced, introduced to us for the first time, basically, since sucker. So like, right, six years. And so there's like young people who, who are just confused to see the person they've seen on their TV out in the wild, because they don't really think of us as like real people. Yeah. There's a lot of characters on the show. And I get why that would be really confusing. Yeah. Do, have you, has there happened where kids like who are watching the, on Disney plus, the old Jonas Brothers, Disney stuff and they see you in real life and they're like, why are you growing up now? Yes. Yeah. Well, that happens a lot. Um, actually, the, the main one I get from young people who are not like Jonas Brothers music fans who are just like seeing me and things, is it be like, are you the guy from Longi? And they're just confused like, why am I out in the real world? That's. Yeah. That must be, do you like that? Do you like that? I mean, it's, I'm, I'm, you're like, listen, little kid, I saw it. Stadium. Yeah. I'm really proud to be a part of that franchise because it's, it's, it's rarefied air to be in anything that, that gross is a billion dollars box office. Yeah. You know, both of those movies, either date or got the second one got very close and. So it's a really special thing, not to get too like heavy about it, but it's like, I am so proud of that and, and, you know, the third one comes out on Christmas day. Awesome. Um, but it is funny. It's like, you know, the association with me has that guy in the video game is like, it's just jarring for kids and like, why are you like out here? Like, as if the game has entered the real world. Yeah. Remember when you were promoting the first Jumanji is when we were ready for, ready for, I'm going to brag about us, um, when we were nominated for Golden Globes together. Yes. And when the goal, we did that, and it was the coolest day. I don't know if we've ever talked about this afterwards. It was the coolest day ever for me at the Golden Globes because Kelly Clarkson was on our table. Yeah. I was kind of distracted that night at once, you know, we didn't win. We did not win. I mean, getting out of it. Spoiler alert. It says it. It is absolutely true though. Like just being nominated, I hate that I said that is so cool, but it's such an amazing feeling. Especially the first time you're nominated at a different thing. It's the coolest fucking thing. It was really special. And to, to have shared that with you was, was really special. It was really awesome. We end every episode with a game called gag or drag. Gag means you love it. Drag means you hate it. You have enough gay friends. You know that. Some guys I have to explain that that suggests in case, okay, gag you love it, drag you hate it. Gag or drag watching your cell phone screen. Oh, it's so terrible, but it depends, it depends on what it is. But I'm going to say drag because I don't, I don't love it. But if it's, I know there are times I do actually, what makes you love it if you look great? It's less about how I look. It's more if I'm like, oh, this, this scene slaps. I did a good job. I did a good job. Like the writing's really good and I'm glad I got to do it. Yeah. It's like that, that happens. It's not really when I'm like, oh, I look cool because for speaking of Jumanjeeps, like there's a couple of like hero shots in that that are really cool when I'm like, oh, god, turn it off. Like I love to comparison. You're like, you know, because you're doing the thing, but, but it's also very cool. Yeah. So I don't know. It's hard to… We also sometimes offer a "meh." "Meh." Okay, great. "Gag or drag? Reading your own comment section?" "Track." Yeah. Because it only makes you feel anxiety and, like, stress. Even if it's really positive, you're like, "Well, she's going to drop." I feel like I'm experiencing a comment section somewhat close now to what you've experienced nowhere as close. I'm not delusional about my success or my exposure, but K-pop fans are really passionate. Very passionate. But, yeah, go ahead. And I have never, K-pop is fun and it's just over the top and it's about the visual. So when I started saying yes to a couple of opportunities, I was like, "Oh, this will be your riot." Yeah. It's a literal riot in the comment section. In the comment section. Yeah, I think because there's like this, it's a sort of like responsibility. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, they're… That's true. I've been to Blackpink Show and a BTS show and thoroughly enjoyed both and, like, I learned a lot about, you know, how to build a show that has solo moments and then the group moments. It's really amazing to see. But I was really taken back by the community aspect of, like, in the sense that it was just like, wow, they're all like in sync. Like, it's one sort of, you know, military-like thing. It's like really cool. Yeah. You're right. There is like a responsibility to what K-pop is because it isn't even though it's so massive now, if for so long, at least here it was this niche thing that the fans have been there the whole time, take it very serious, which is… Did you write Pinky Up? I did. Yes. It's amazing. Thank you. It's incredible. Thank you very much. Like, it's legit. Like, it's like an important song in culture. I will take it. Why? I think it's important culturally because it's doing a thing that is starting a conversation and saying that it's okay not to be so serious all the time. Yeah. It's okay to have fun and to express yourself in whatever way you want. And also, I quote Socrates, like, I don't know what more you want from me. Yeah. So go off. So go off. Okay. Gag or drag family group texts? Gag. Gag. Yeah. It's just a lot of kid pictures, which I love. Right. Yeah. You know, my niece is my daughter. Like, it's all that stuff. Yeah. But drag, as a sort of tandem to that, please, is voicemails. Voicemails in the group text. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In general, whether it's family or not, like, I can't sit there and I can read at my own pace, which I'm a fast reader or I can read. But if I have to wait for you, like, what is, what's happening? Why are you doing this? Voicemails are tricky. Voicemails are polarizing. I think it's unsent or something like disappears, but if you didn't want me to, why did you send it to me? It's like, it's, I can only access this information then. It's frustrating. It is. It's, it's, it's voicemails get stressful. You're like, I know, you know, how much I love song math. Like, I need you to structure this voice note if you want me to listen to it. Get to the point. Yeah. Of course. Thank you. Gag or drag method actors? Drag. Yeah. Yeah. Just try smacking. I mean, I, I think it's great to take your job seriously and anything you do and to really care about the process. I'm not saying that. And I respect people that have a process and that's the process. But I think that you should be able to just do it as well. Yeah. Without ruining everybody's life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gag or drag singing a song you wrote 15 years ago. Gag. Gag. It's even more special now than it was then. And I knew that to me your answer because I know the deep amount of respect that you have for your fans. Yes. And it's bringing them that nostalgia is very important to you. And I know that firsthand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And, you know, it's funny. The only thing that perhaps like didn't age well in some of those songs is references to technology specific to that time, which is something that I learned later on, like not to reference specific technology things. So there are times that's kind of funny where it's like, I'm referencing I am instant messenger. No. Really? Or like, which song is I am in? SOS. Oh, yes. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. But I will say as someone who's seen your show many times, those old songs that, that feel that have those very specific dated references, they go off like they were their number one on the chart right now. Yes, why? And there's such a power in letting people have that nostalgia that it's it's crazy. Okay. Gag or drag being the youngest sibling, but Frank, Frank one's yeah, but I know what you're saying. Yeah. I think kind of, kind of gag because, you know, you can watch and observe the mistakes of yeah, your older siblings and just kind of, yeah, avoid that. But we have, you know, we've always had a really odd dynamic in that I'm I they don't treat me like the younger brother. We yeah, it's just our dynamic is, it's just different, but if if I was like being bullied by them, so then I would be a drag for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm the youngest of four and the bullying was never fun. That definitely happened, but I was the learning from your older brother's fucking up is so awesome. It's great. Like, oh, your mom and dad's favorite. I'm like, no, I'm just not ruining their lives. It's just so much easier. Simple, gag or drag, rewatching your like very old work, um, gag because it's, it's crazy that so much of my, my life is like documented. That must be why like I, I don't remember so many things and I'm like, oh my god, yeah, that was insane. Yeah. Um, and I, I think that when I was a kid, not to get too heavy, but I was, I was so fearless and full of joy and you know, you, I can actually see the difference of like when life happened. And I like, I started behaving differently, not smiling as much and like seeing that younger version myself. I'm like, wow, it's not a thing a lot of people get to see outside of home videos and things like that, right? But I have like thousands of hours on YouTube that I could watch of just endless proof that you used to be happier. Exactly. Well, well, with that leads in probably one of one of Morgan's last questions here, which is not a gag or drag just a full circle. What do you think that people misunderstand about growing up in the public and not this is not like, oh, being famous is hard. Those questions are insane and boring. What do you think that people, well, I guess you kind of said though, having that documentation of your life is probably something people don't really think about. Yeah. I think that it's that and also that not everything is a part of some DVS plan. You know, for us, whether it was, um, things like the purity rings, which people were really interested in, or like who we were dating, these types of things aren't part of some script, right? You know, just because your life is in the public guy, like you're just a teenager or a kid, like just growing up, doing what everybody else is doing, figuring it out like everybody else. And I agree with your point. This is not, this, this answer is not like being celebrity's heart. It's just context that when I look at a person who's living in the public guy as a young person, you know, in their teens or early 20s, and people kind of come at it from that angle of like, oh, this is, but they're marketing their album by this dating. I'm like, maybe they're just trying to figure it out. That's also just like they're a young working person and they just meet other people they're working with. Yeah. So I just let them, let them like live their life figured out on their own and, and, you know, I'm grateful that, that I feel like from when we started to, to now, you know, I do think people are, are chilling out on how like much they're inserting themselves and, in people's business. But I think, you know, it's just, it's just life. You're just kind of figuring things out, yeah. What do you wish that you knew about collaboration now that you knew when you were younger? That's our final question. What sort of advice would you give your younger self about the art of collaboration? How to be a better collaborator? I would say that I would tell my younger self, it's okay to be wrong, to, to, to not chase down a thing to. To its completion just because you feel like that's the only way You can you can work it up at tip to 99% still go, you know what let's go back and Fix this or make it better or change this thing So I guess the in summary. It's like it's not about completing the task or completing the song or whatever. It's about like Maybe letting it breathe sometimes and just going I don't have it right now, but we'll we'll figure it out And I do that now there are times, you know, we've done it Where we start a verse in a chorus and go we'll come back to this when we feel like we know what it is. Yeah And being able to just kind of go hands-off and just Give it some space. I think it's important. Yeah, I think I think that's a great great lesson to learn of like things are allowed to have space and also not everything Even has to get finished. Yeah, some things are just like that one isn't it And I think when I when I first started doing the pop session world where you're in a scheduled session Every day. I was like we must always finish and for the most part, I still do but like just being like That one isn't ever gonna be good and that's okay or maybe it's gonna be good in a year and we have to deal with it then Yeah, I Love going back into like my folder of unreleased songs. Yeah, and just going are any of these like have they aged well? And sometimes it's I get surprised. I'm like, oh this wasn't right then, but the The popular sound has moved that direction, maybe we were just premature there and it's like There's so many and that just speaks to You know the bigger point, which is like it's okay to just Just not finish something or put it on a shelf and dust it off when it feels right. Yeah, love it Everybody Nick Jonas. Yeah Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast Wherever you listen so you don't miss future Conversations and also pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. 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