NFL Head Coaches Draft! Who Would You Start an Expansion Team With?

Welcome to the Wringer NFL show. I'm your host, Sheila Kapati, a very fun episode today. We are doing an NFL head coaches draft. Here's the exercise. You've just been awarded an expansion team and you get your choice of any head coach in the NFL. Who's your first pick? Who's the second pick? Who's the third pick? We're going to go one to 32 with every NFL head coach with my friend from NBC Sports Pat Dardy. It's a very fun exercise. We agreed on some. We disagreed a lot on some others. So let's take a break. We come back with the NFL head coaches draft. All right. We are back here with my friend Pat Dardy from NBC Sports. He is the guy I go to when I want to talk coaching. He always does an annual column ranking the NFL head coaches, starting at one, going down the list. I read it every single year and I thought, you know what? I want to do a pot on that, but I want to switch it up a little bit. And so here's the exercise, Pat. We are drafting head coaches for an expansion team. You and I, we've just been awarded expansion teams. And you know what? Roger Goodell says, you get your choice of any coach, any head coach in the NFL, who are you going to pick? And we're going to draft them. So we have our big board. Here's my first choice. Here's my second choice. So it's a little bit different than your straight ranking because this is all about projection. You know, the resume matters, but the resume is not everything. You have to determine, are these coaches going to be good for whatever the next three, five, 10 years, whatever? Maybe you take age into account and say, I don't want one of the guys in their 60s. They can't be coaching my team for a long time. Give me one of the young whippersnapper. So I spent a lot of time today, Pat, going over this and rearranging my board. We'll set, we'll see if I stick to my board. Or if I'm just like, no, instinct says, I'm going in a different direction. Yeah, it's a shockingly difficult exercise, isn't it? This is one thing I always want to tell people when they're complaining at me about just the regular coach rankings. Like, no, not so easy. Is it after you get down there and try to do it yourself? And I think this is a, I have, after you proposed this podcast format, I'm almost like, this is maybe how I should actually do the article, like approach it. Like I'm the, the, you know, the owner or maybe even GM of the St. Louis stallions of the team that was rather infamously not awarded to St. Louis as the Jaguars instead. Everyone at St. Louis thought we were going to the expansion team. And it was the Jaguar. So yeah, I'm going to be taking this viewers. I'm the owner GM of the St. Louis stallions of who I would be hiring if I could have any head coach in the league. Yeah, get into ownership mode. You know, you own a second house in West Palm Beach. You wipe the sweat off your brow with $100 bills, you know, you're just the greediest person anyone could ever want to meet in any walk of life. So that's the mode we're trying to get into. But we are trying to also hire a good head coach. Okay, you're the guest Pat. You get the number one pick. If you're pick of any head coach in the NFL for your expansion team, who are you going with and why? And see, this is one way where I actually did change my article this year because I had kind of had the legacy ranking of Andy Reed as number one for several years. You know, not that he didn't deserve number one last year. They were just coming off a Super Bowl loss. But I had already had that in the back of my head for several years. If I was going to start a team as much as I love Andy Reed and as much as he's one of the greatest coaches in the history of American football, professional or collegiate, I think Sean McVay is the best in the business right now. And just he's got that restless, innovative energy. You know, comparisons to Bill Belichick are kind of inevitable. But he kind of reminds me more of Nick Sabin where like he wants to win. He obviously, Belichick would do anything to win. You know, take a little too far. But McVay the way he's just open to any idea. I don't think Bill Belichick was open to to any idea where McVay, he's open to recycling assistant coaches. He scours the country for new assistant coaches, even though he knows they're just going to get hired away from him to be coaches. He looks to the past for personnel groupings, for plays, also like blazing a new trail on certain fronts. And he's just so perfect in the way he blends like old school, like execution and like being devoted to fundamentals with new school, being open to new ideas and always looking for the next new thing, the next big thing. And to Sean McVay, not only is he, I think the best coach in the NFL right now, who I'd want to start a franchise with, I really do think he's already one of the all-time greats. He would have been my first pick as well. You know, like you said, nine seasons, seven playoff appearances. He's only had a losing record once, been in the Super Bowl twice, one at once. You laid out a great sort of background that he evolves. It's not like he's doing the same thing every single year. And the other thing that I think sticks out with him is, you know, for all these offensive coaches, we're going to talk about a lot of offensive coaches today. Who can do it against like the legendary defensive coaches? And he was putting it on Mike McDonald and Vic Fangio. I mean, that he had very strong game plans. And of course, Matthew Stafford helps as well. But you know, I think that's what separates him is he can do it against the best defensive coordinators as well. The only thing I was a little nervous about was he's kind of spoken about sometimes he feels an emptiness or sort of the emotional rollercoaster of being a head coach. And it's like he's only 40. But if I hire him for my expansion team in two years, if it's not going well as he can be like, see, I'm taking a TV job. But if he's taking the expansion job, I feel like you can feel good about it that he's going to stick with you. So I like it. McVey, the number one pick in our draft. Now, initially Pat, I had him number two. I changed it about an hour before the pod. But I'll go with the guy I originally had number one. And that's Mike McDonald of the Seahawks. And I don't know if that would surprise people or not surprise people. But I was looking at two seasons 24 and 10 two winning seasons with Gino Smith and Sam Donald already won a Super Bowl. I really think he's the defensive version of McVey in a lot of ways where it's just like this guy. It's not he doesn't have to just stick with his scheme the entire time like he's going to evolve. He's able to find players that match what he wants to do or fit his scheme to match his player strengths. And I feel like you're potentially getting a Hall of Fame caliber coach just in his third year, where he's only 38 years old. Like he could potentially be your coach for the next 20 years here. And so normally I lean towards offense, but I really did think he was the exception. Mike McDonald, my selection at number two here. I completely agree. I have a third number three. So it's not like I haven't too far down my board. And he's got McVey energy to me to where like he's very just got a humility to him. Like he'll do anything to win and not unlike that dark kind of Bella Checkian way. Like he's just open to new ideas. He's open to admitting mistakes. I think the thing I was most impressed with about Mike McDonald was the decisive actions he took last year. He's like, I know I hired Ryan Grubb, but I that just wasn't the offense I'm looking for. Like swing and a miss there. I only one year, you know, I raised some eyebrows for first year in the league. You're going to fire your offense of coordinator. I had a winning record too. But he knew it just wasn't what he wanted. Fire him. He knew that Geno Smith wasn't what he wanted at quarterback and very unclear if he had upgraded in Sam Darnold. He knew what he wanted. He took those two decisive actions. They could not have paid off in greater fashion. Obviously. And just beyond last year, not only one season, sometimes you can get lucky and win a Super Bowl, but he's got anywhere he's been. It's been a top three or four defense, you know, Michigan, the Ravens, now the Seahawks. And yet he just I think he has that like that openness to learning that McVeigh has. And just I completely agree that if he's not the second best coach in the NFL right now, he's at least top three, top four. And I would love to build a franchise where I'm like, it feels like he's just going to set such a high floor with you. Normally defense kind of varies year to year, but I do feel like he's the exception where, you know, I would expect for the next 10 years, most seasons, he's going to have a very good defense. And Darnold was great last year, but imagine if he, if they looked into like a, you know, and even more talented quarterback or someone who would we would consider a top five or top eight quarterback in the entire NFL, then who knows what kind of what kind of production they could have there in Seattle. So you said you had him third. So now it's back to you with the third overall pick, Pat, and you get the second person on your board. Who is it? This won't be controversial, and it also won't be controversial. I don't think anyone really debates how good of a coach he is. He's just not for everybody. And that's Kyle Shanahan. And you're, I think McVeigh probably deserves the label of best offensive thinker in the NFL. But me, Kyle Shanahan has a very strong claim to that. I think McVeigh does several other things better than Kyle Shanahan, but like pound for pound, if you're just talking about play design, play sequencing, but getting the most out of his offensive personnel, even though sometimes you know, he has weird failures where he drafts like a guy high, and they somehow don't fit his system. But I look at Kyle Shanahan as the ultimate play designer, the ultimate that the skimmer offensive skimmer in the entire NFL. I think he's gotten better as a leader. I thought last year was really important for Kyle Shanahan too, where I think it was a really more resilient 49ers team last year. We know he's been the king of variance since he's been there since 2017, where either he's making the NFC championship game or you know, they're going like 6 and 11. Yeah. Last year they had one of those injury avalanches and the team just didn't fold up. They were competing for the number one seed until week 18. Things didn't end well. Of course, but then too that kind of ragged limping along team upset the Eagles and the wild card round. I just thought it was a different style of Shanahan team last year and he's a guy where you know he's He seems kind of stubborn sometimes, like, he's kind of one of those coaches for him. So they fall behind in the game like, well, it's over. All right. I thought that just it didn't seem like that last year at Kyle Shanahan and if he's kind of becoming a more resilient version of Kyle Shanahan, I think he's like a truly elite head coach to build your franchise. Yeah. If I'm the owner, I'm like, all right. Well, I'm probably not playing golf with him a lot. He's probably not being like, let's go get lunch or let's hang out. It might not be the best time, you know, because he is an intense guy for sure. But you know what? If I'm all about winning, we have the same top three here, Pat. We just had McDonald and Shanahan flipflop. So we have the same three guys. I'm with you. I feel like he could have an Andy Reid second act, you know, if this doesn't work out, let's say the 49ers don't have a great year or the next two years or whatever. And he moves on. I kind of want to be in on Kyle Shanahan on his second act because he's only 46 years old. Like, he's got a lot of coach. I can't imagine a life for him where he's not coaching. It's very different from McVeigh. Like I think he's going to be in our lives for a very long time. He will be. Yeah. No, I know. It's kind of scary to think about. It's like, are we going to retire before Kyle Shanahan retired? Obviously. Yes. I just got that thought. I've got my head in this. Yeah. Yeah. You might, I mean, you're going to be working for a lot of men. Well, I retired before Kyle Shanahan. True. I've only got two is the better question. But nine seasons, five playoff appearances, four championship game appearances. You mentioned it. They had that streak where either they weren't making the playoffs or they were getting at least to the championship round that I think was finally broken last year. I don't love his in game stuff. I wish I wish someone could get through to him. Don't be so conservative, dude. You are an awesome offensive coach like work on these plays. Go for it on fourth down. Don't plan all the time. But there's no denying. I think he does have a case is the best offensive mind in the NFL better than McVeigh. I bet you could. I bet if you did a poll in the NFL, it might be a little bit split between those two guys. He's done it with party and Garoppolo and even went back up skid in there. So it has been very, very impressive. And that's just hard to find that guy who can do it with quarterbacks at different levels. So I like that one. All right. You ready for the first upset pick of the 20, 26 head coaches draft here, Pat? Let's do it. Ben Johnson of the Chicago Bears. I've got fourth year and I know some of you are yelling, give me a break, Sheel. He's only done it for one season. I understand. Why we are projecting here. If I had my choice, I'm buying into the Ben Johnson height. They go 11 and six last year. He was a terrific offensive coordinator for the Lions and then he brings that over to the Bears and he's a terrific offensive designer and skimmer and play collar with the Chicago Bears. So we now have like years of evidence that this guy is a very, very bright offensive mind. You mentioned the humility with some of the other coaches and I don't think you would look at Ben Johnson and say humility when the guy is just like screw you, Matt LaFourne, ripping a shirt off in the locker room and all that. However, I do remember many times, I don't know if it's many times, certain times last year where he would get asked a question in his press conference where some coaches would get pretty defensive. You know, I don't remember the exact example, but it's like, why didn't, you know, you kind of got away from the run in the fourth quarter there and rather than snapping like there were times where he'd be like, you know what, you know, that was something that I was thinking about a lot last night. He kind of kept me up at night, you're right on it with that. I should have done that. And I'm like, oh, I got that, that shows me you actually have confidence and you are like being accountable and it's not just bravado of, oh, I'm holding Caleb Williams accountable in the media and then doing something different on the inside. So I'm in on him. I don't know if they're going to make that hugely, you know, this year, we'll see where we are in August and September. Obviously, they got some bounces last year. But if I'm talking about that whatever, the next five, 10 years, I think Ben Johnson by buying early after one season that I think he's going to emerge as one of the best coaches in the NFL. What do you think? Is it a reach? Are you with me? What do you think about Ben Johnson? I'm with you. I had him number five. And it was the first big deviation from my standard rankings where you have to take track record and do account if you're saying who's the best coach right now, because I've gotten burned in the past. I know your legal fan, Chip Kelly, I was very excited when he had a good first year. Yeah. I was like, the offensive revolution is here and it turned out it really wasn't. So you have to have some humility as a rancor of these things, but everything you said about Ben Johnson rings true to me. And the NFL has always moved quickly. Like it's always been a trend's league where like as soon as one thing is here, it seems like it's gone tomorrow. But where I used to take place over five to 10 years, maybe four to five, feels like things are turning over like two to three year cycles now or just moving amazingly quickly. And it's just become a league where you have to have the innovative energy. And we're like, we're seeing young guys routinely win Super Bowls now where Mike McDonald, Sean McVeigh, maybe still more of the exception Andy Reed has of course been doing it. But me, even Nick Seriani won a Super Bowl and you have to be on the cutting edge to win right now in the NFL. There's no question Ben Johnson is an offensive play collar. And kind of like I said, was Sean McVeigh, I like the way he blends like old school and new school principles. Yeah. Kind of old school the way he's a leader, like you said, he doesn't care if the other team hates him, like what we've gotten used to me and everyone but buddy, buddy, not just the players, but the coaches, like I found that pretty fascinating, you know, an interesting way to lead a locker room to, you know, I just like, Ben Johnson, he could burn brightly, but I think I think that's going to include a lot of winning over the next four to five years. Maybe it's not a 10 to 12 year thing. I just think Ben Johnson's where the innovative energy is, right? All right. Maybe what? I thought it was going to be more controversial. Pat and I are aligned so far. I think they're going to be some where we disagree a little bit more on, but go ahead. You have the fifth overall pick here. Pat, who do you got? Well, this is when I felt a little uncertain on it. I had him fourth ahead of Ben Johnson, actually. Okay. Dan Campbell where I just think interesting, I see I have him quite a bit lower and I like Dan Campbell. Okay. Make the case here for Dan Campbell. We've talked about a lot of like schemers right now, like guys whose main weapon is like the offensive scheme they bring or the defensive scheme they bring where it's still a culture league and Ben, Dan Campbell is the ultimate culture guy right now. Even last year where things weren't going great, it's not like the wheels came all the way off. It's not like he lost the locker room, he was beating Ben Johnson in a week 18, actually. So it doesn't seem like they gave up on him, even in a tough year. Kind of like Mike McDonald, he admitted he didn't make the right hire offensive coordinator. He was decisive there. He's moving on and he's not only a culture guy, you know, he's called his own plays several times and just one thing that I always come back to with Dan Campbell is Jared Gough was left for dead when he came to Detroit. This is supposed to be a long rebuild like for a guy to take with that situation where like not even really the own organization seemed to think he was going to win with this quarterback and he made them like such an instant consistent winner. I'm just willing to bet on Dan Campbell is the leader of men archetype, which is not as common as it used to be, but it's still there in the harbors. And I just think Dan Campbell's maybe the ultimate leader right now, hopefully he can hold his own when it comes to scheme and hopefully this roster stays good. I still think Dan Campbell's a guy destined to really get to a Super Bowl. Maybe he won't win one when there are so many elite coaches right now. I'm still just willing to bet on Dan Campbell and his leadership. Yeah. You brought up at this point the last time you were on where we're like the state of coaching is pretty good. Yes. Right now, like when you're doing your column, it's probably harder to make fun of guys than it was, you know, so 10 years ago, you could get more jokes off back then. And I had Campbell outside my top 10. And I, you know, I said, I was like, I like, I feel like I like Dan Campbell that I'm usually defending Dan Campbell. I love his in game management. Now he's just like, I don't care that the announcers are going to crush me. We're going forward here. You know, we are going to be aggressive. That's going to be our mentality. He embodies that maybe more than any coach in the NFL. I do believe in the emotional intelligence and the authenticity, like, I feel like that hard not enough. You remember that hard knock scene where they're cutting guys at training camp. And I was just like, man, this guy's like, you know, like he, this is actually painting it. Like he's having real conversations with these guys. Yeah. It's like you can't really fake it. You know, every coach, I thought it's the worst day of the year, you know, it's not true for many of them. They're like, all right, let's move on to the next thing. But I felt like he was really feeling that there. Now here's my question with him. And I think the reason I bumped him down was the offensive coordinator thing where he nailed it with Ben Johnson. And that's when they had their best chance to win a Super Bowl. And since then, that kind of cycling through guys and they're trying to figure it out with Drew Petsing this year. Now, maybe he'll hit on him and their window will be expanded and they'll be a Super Bowl contender. But that makes me just when it's the CEO type head coach, it's like, that's such an important hire. Can you nail it? Can you build a pipeline? It's very difficult to do. And so I feel like we kind of have to see if he's able to do that or not. But, you know, you can look at it and say, come on, he's only made the, they've only made the playoffs twice in five seasons and they haven't been to a Super Bowl. But in Detroit with the history of that franchise, I think they've had a winning record in four straight seasons. I was looking this up as preparing for the pot. They've literally never done that in the Super Bowl era before Dan Campbell. So I think you have to take franchise infrastructure into account with some of these where you're like, this coach is with this owner and this GM. This coach is with this owner and this GM. You know, there are different advantages and disadvantages depending on where you're playing. So I don't hate that pick. I think this next group is pretty bunched, but I had him a little bit lower. Okay. My final thought when Dan Campbell is that he doesn't compound mistakes too. Where like, he moved on after one year from John Morton, of course, he did the same thing with Anthony Lynn, and maybe you could say this dysfunction or cycling through guys, but He found the right guy and Ben Johnson. I think he will probably find the right guy again to cosplays. - All right, let's take a break. We come back and I will give you the sixth overall pick here. This episode is brought to you by Warby Parker. You know, I used to wear glasses and I always hated the experience. My wife wears glasses now and it's the same thing. It feels like you need a full game plan before you leave the house. It's not a pleasant experience, but you know what? Warby Parker completely flipped the experience. They've simplified everything, quality, price, selection, all of it. And their virtual trion is surprisingly accurate, such a game changer right now by one prescription pair and get 20% off any additional prescription pairs at WarbyParker.com/ringerNFL. That's 20% off additional prescription pairs when you go to w-a-r-b-y-harker.com/ringerNFL. All right, we're back on the ringer NFL. All right, so that was our first disagree, big disagreement, Dan Campbell. I went with Andy Reid here that he was a hard guy to place in this exercise compared to the one you did for NBC Sports because if you're going resume, it's just like 27 years in the NFL has been in the playoffs 20 times, just four losing seasons in 20, 70 years, six super bowl appearances, three super bowlers. I mean, it's one of the all-time great resumes in the NFL. He might end up being the all-time win's leader in the NFL, having said that, he's 68 years old and I do wonder a little bit what the next three to five years look like for Andy Reid. I don't think last year was great. He brings in Eric B. Annamy where I'm thinking to myself, Andy, you have your choice of any offensive mind in the world right now. Can you go identify an up-and-comer who can really help you and bring new ideas and maximize what this next window looks like with Patrick Maholms and he just goes back to a guy he had on his staff before. So I think there's a chance that this is the beginning of the end for Andy Reid. And I don't mean they're gonna go five and 12 or whatever, it's just like we're gonna every year, we're gonna be like, huh, does he still have his fastball? I think there's a chance that he doesn't, but at the same time at this point in the draft, I was like, if I got an expansion team, like Andy Reid's gonna bring me a certain level of competence and credibility where this thing's not gonna be a train wreck. So I thought this was the spot where I decided to put it. - Yeah, I dropped Reid all the way to 10. Just because like you said, he's clearly a year-to-year proposition at this point. And just with Reid, it's almost starting to mirror Bill Belichek where I thought Bill Belichek would never get bad as an NFL head coach. I thought he wanted to win so badly that he would continue to do whatever it took, even if that included like going outside his coaching tree, making himself uncomfortable, changing up the way he drafts. He never did any of those things. He let himself get stale. And I thought that was very alarming with Andy Reid where how did an offense with Patrick Mahomes become unfund to watch? - Yeah. - It's really rather astounding. And how was there no fallback plan they didn't even have a running game? For Andy Reid has always had good running games. And then like you, I was alarmed when the solution there must be recycle a guy. You know, they kind of chased out a town before, an Eric be enemy. And just, it seems like he's running low on ideas. And yeah, he's getting up in age. And I just don't know. It never seems like it's going to happen that someone's going to fall off on all-time great, but I guess that they do. And I do have the same worries with, did you do with Andy Reid? Well, also still having, you know, it's Andy Reid. He can, of course, correct. He was truly, basically, only one bad year, even though they've been getting less fun to watch. Or I wouldn't be shocked if Andy Reid bounces back and wins another Super Bowl this year. But he has no longer a guy I'm looking like maybe build an entire franchise. - I would have been shocked either way. If you told me two years from now, he retires and these next two years don't go well, or if they won a Super Bowl. So there's like a, you know, you have Mahomes still, there's a lot of variance. I am leaning a little bit more towards, he doesn't have his fastball, but I still, you know what? I still had to make him my pick there. All right, Pat, who do you have seven overall pick in our head coach's draft? - He was my sixth, he's our seventh. I someone who's never won a playoff game somehow. That would be Kevin O'Connell. And the little stunned, he's never won a playoff game, but I think as we both kind of alluded to, maybe we haven't come out and said it, ideally you begin your franchise with an offensive play collar as your head coach. There are major exceptions that rule, some of the all-time grades, of course, are exceptions that rule. But everything's easier when your head coach is calling play as an offense, because what always gets poached first, an elite play collar, they can't poach the head coach. Kevin O'Connell, whether it's been with red tread veterans, you know, like unsung day two or three picks, he's been the quarterback whisperer except, of course, last year, the ultimate disaster year, but J.J. McCartney, well, they still somehow go nine and eight. That's what kind of stands out to me about last year. - That's one of the craziest stats of the 2025 season. It's like every time I go to the standing speech, I'm like, wait, I've watched that season. I mean, how did they go nine and eight last year? Yeah, that is one. - And so, basically, you look at the Vikings 2025 and you come to the conclusion, if Carson Wentz could have started four or five more games, the Vikings probably make the playoffs. And that really speaks to how good Kevin O'Connell has been and what head coaches, you always have to handle your business on your side of the ball. Kevin O'Connell does that. Then you have to know who to trust on the other side of the ball. He's found an elite defensive coordinator in Brian Flores. It seems like he has good judgment, maybe not in the quarterback department, I guess, with J.J. McCartney, but the good has so outweighed the bat with Kevin O'Connell. I think he's one of the league's ultimate offensive play callers, and I would be very comfortable starting an expansion team with Kevin O'Connell's head coach. - I had him number eight, so we're not far off there with where we had him. You mentioned, it hasn't won a playoff game in four seasons. Did go 13 and four with Kirk Cousins. Did go 14 and three with Sam Darnel. I love the Flores point. We forget now, now we're just like Flores, amazing defensive coordinator. Like anybody could have hired him. - Yes. - He was what? The linebackers coach of the Steelers, literally any franchise could have hired him as their defensive coordinator. And O'Connell's the one who did so. So I think he's smart enough to do that, and I'm kind of bullish on them this year. That's how it's doing this exercise. I'm like, well, to your point with Carson Wentz, I'm like, if Kyler Murray is like competent, I mean, he's won a lot of games without ideal quarterback situation. So I think O'Connell is a good one there. All right. Eighth pick here. Listen, I guess Pat's an Aegist. You know, I like to think that Americans in their 60s can still, no, okay. I'm going with another guy in his 60s. Sean Payton, I was like 62 years old. Who, but then I'm like, he just literally engineered what would be like the same thing he would have to do for my expansion team. I mean, the Broncos were irrelevant with a bad quarterback contract on their books and he turned it around to the point where they won, what was it, 13 games, whatever it was last year, but 18 seasons as a head coach, 11 playoff appearances, won a Super Bowl for a championship game appearances, 24 and 10 in Botanix's first two years here, won a lot with the same. So my line for Sean Payton, that, you know, if you're a consistent listener of this pot, you've heard me say it a million times. It's like he thinks he's God's gift to coaching football, but he is kind of like the one who's best coach. It's gonna be all right. I don't want to say he is God's gift to coaching football, but he's like, nah, he's probably not far off from that where I would just feel very confident that he could get my expansion team going in the right direction. Whereas even if he wants to retire five years from now, we're still in a good spot there. So I've got Payton next on my list. And the reason I still have faith in Sean Payton, I had him next on my list too, where he did what Bill Bella check couldn't do and what Andy Reed has struggled to do where Sean Payton's one of the greatest play callers in the history of the league. But he's sensed that he had become a liability. Who knows if he's gonna actually allow Davis Webb to call a place in 17 games? - No, I don't think he's right about that though. - So it is, we are still, but we'll see. But to me, that was like the kind of move while out of these aging coaches are unwilling to make where he wants to win so badly, he's doing whatever it takes. And like that's just something you don't see from a coach in his position very often. So that struck me as very bullish. And then he's the first guy to win the AFC West since Patrick Mahomes came the chief starter, other than the chiefs I should say. And it's like no easy feat. Even in a year where Patrick Mahomes gets injured, he's just clearly not resting on his laurels. He's still as a burning desire to win. He's willing to do what it takes. And yeah, I would be very comfortable with Sean Payton coaching my team, say the next four to five years. - All right, number nine, Pat, who do you got? - Along those same lines as Jim Harbaugh, where he's one fewer than 11 games one time ever as an NFL head coach. He's won quite literally everywhere he's been. I wrote my article, he won at the University of San Diego. Now he's winning with the NFL team that used to play in San Diego. And he did the same thing that Sean Payton did. Maybe I shouldn't give these guys too much credit for going outside their coaching tree, but it's just not something you see very often. Including from Jim Harbaugh, he got to LA. First thing he does is bring back Greg Roman. Then to his credit, he's admitted that probably wasn't the best choice. He went out and got the best offensive coordinator that was available this off season in Mike McDaniel. Another guy where, again, sometimes you can take this too far, but he's clearly willing to do what it takes to win. He's one of the great fundamental coaches in the history of football. Jim Harbaugh arrives somewhere, and they immediately become maybe the most fundamentally sound team whether it's in their conference or in their league in the NFL. And he's always gonna have that. He's an eye. God guy, but he's a great leader in his own way. Yeah, I was just so impressed. He was willing, even at his age, even with his experience, even with his success, he's willing to bring in a guy outside his tree and might need Daniel. - Especially this specific guy, you know, this quirky guy with this personality. It's like, yeah, I agree. That really showed me something. 'Cause before that, you could argue like, all right, he's just bringing in his guy, you know what, great. He's sticking with Greg Robin to a long time thing. That moved this off season. I thought definitely showed me something. You mentioned it. Six NFL seasons has never had a losing record. His worst record is eight name. And he's won 11 plus games every other season. He has the 10th best winning percentage in NFL history, which is like, whoa, that's, I think that might surprise him. - Sneaks up on you, yes. - Yeah, it sneaks up on you. He did it in the college ranks as well. So I had him top 10. And even then, I wrote in my notes, I'm like, feel like I have him too low. I had him 10. You certainly could make the case that he should be in the top five there. So I think Jim Harbaugh is a good one. All right, I'm going to Green Bay with my next pick. Pat, this one, I don't know, you know, I think they're, this guy, it feels like he's become very polarizing over the last year or so. And that's Matt LaFlor of the Green Bay Packers. Seven seasons, winning record in six of them in the playoffs in six of them. Two championship game appearances. The playoffs have been ugly. I will absolutely concede that. He has had moments in the playoffs. And that's when everyone's attention's on you, you know, like the, I don't want to say even the casual fan, but a lot of you're watching your own team on a Sunday. You're watching the other of the primetime games. But once the playoffs come around, everybody is zeroed in on these teams and these coaches. And he's three and six in the postseason. And there have just been some head scratching moments with him there. So that worries me a little bit. But can he develop a young quarterback? Yes, he's done that with Jordan Love. The stuff he does when Malik Willis got in the game. I thought that was very impressive. So if you're just talking like quarterback development, adjusting your scheme to the quarterback's strengths and weaknesses, actually able to do that, which is maybe one of the most precious skills of a coach in the NFL. I feel like he's got that. And I really feel like I could fix the other stuff, you know, like I feel like I would bring him in. Hey, Matt, yeah, you know, you're not going to hire Jonathan again as your defensive coordinator. Here's a list. These guys are going to be much better. Hey, Matt, the end game decision stuff. Yeah, here we're going to hire this guy. It's going to be in your head. Said he's going to tell you what to do. I feel like if you kind of fix those two things, I like almost all the other stuff about Matt Laflore. So I have him here with my next pick. I had him at 12. So it's still a level of respect for me, but not commiserate with this record, I would say. And sometimes the Laflore, I think one problem is, we're unlike Kyle Shanahan, who's an elite play designer. And I would say a pretty good play sequencer. Laflore is an elite play designer. I don't know if he's an elite play sequencer. It feels like they leave too many points on the table, especially in the second half of games. And we're, it's almost like sometimes a baseball thing. Yeah, I know you're a baseball fan where, sometimes you could say like, say like the Milwaukee Brewers right now, they have a great 162 game roster. Like in this roster, really win in a playoff series. Like we're talent, really takes over. You kind of have to have like, hate the clichés, like that killer instinct. Like how can you, the past three playoff losses, the Laflore's had, they've blown second half leads. How can you let that happen over and over and over again in the playoffs? And I'd be like, he leaves points on the table. I'd be like, he doesn't call games too, like the goal is to maximize his points. It's like he's trying to maximize his efficiency, which I guess would normally maximize your points. But like, I want the play card to call, play is like the goal is to score 50 points. Obviously you're not gonna ever do that. I'd be like, he doesn't do that. And yet, like the defense always collapses all the most inopportune times. It's not his side of the ball, but maybe it's his judgment who to hire. And I feel like, yeah, he's leaving me on the bone. And I agree with you with a few small tweaks. Maybe a MATLA floor truly vaults into that top four or five. Whereas winning percentage really says he should be. But he's got big changes. He probably still needs to make. Yeah, his winning percentage is not. So when you just go to the pro football reference page, like man, MATLA floor, he's really doing good things in Green Bay. Okay, that was our top 10. Pat, now we move on to kind of the next tier here. Who do you have at number 11? Well, I have, it was a guy, a little hard to evaluate right now, Mike Raible. Cause he just, a guy who'd been riding really high. We don't have to get into the off the field stuff, but obviously that does. I bumped him. I'm a little concerned. We'll hear Pat. Okay, you kept him there. It does change things. Cause like, what's something you don't want as like a leader? It's kind of getting like your aura of invincibility pierced. And I would say that's happened with Mike Raible. Where he always kind of just carried himself. And I think was regarded as a big tough guy, kind of like an invincible guy. Like a guy who was just always tough in all the biggest moments, like very cany and smart too. And not just a tough guy. He's a rule book maestro. He's the ultimate. He always gets the whole greater than the sum of its parts. I just worry if he, I don't know if he's like a wounded, like a wounded asset right now. And just, but he's a ultimate player's coach on top of everything. I just said to the players, typically love him. If you can rebound from a pretty ugly episode here, I think he was still being a lead head coach. A guy whose team's always overachieved. To the point where, what do you have to do to have an ugly loss in the Super Bowl? You have to make the Super Bowl. The team probably had no business being in the Super Bowl, but they got there because of how good of him as a coach. I still believe in Mike Raible if he can get past the speed bump. This is one where again, the projection is different than the resume. I'm with you. If you looked at the resume, there's no down. He's been a very good head coach. He was a very good head coach last year. I'm just, there's so much uncertainty. I'm the owner, Pat. I got to look out for all aspects of the organization. Okay, we got, you know, we got the PR team, we got this. There's a lot of cameras are following this guy around. And I don't know when it's going to end. - And to me, the ultimate distraction this year. - It's the ultimate distraction. I don't know what else is going to come out about it. Like, I don't feel like we have the full story. Still, so it's not just, you know, and this is all speculative, but it's not just like, oh, I can't have a head coach who is, you know, disloyal to his family. We have, you know, you and I have followed the league for a long time where we have looked at NFL head coaches who might be great at their jobs and might not, you know, you probably wouldn't be like, oh, that's who I want. My kids to grow up as. I would actually say most, the majority of head coaches, we have probably put-- - You have to usually have a screw or two loose to be an NFL head coach. - Yeah, so it's just the spotlight on him now has me very concerned like how long is this thing going to actually follow him and his value as a head coach does it significantly outweigh the distraction that it's going to have with him as the head coach. Obviously, there are levels, so if it was, you know, Sean McFae, I would be pretty inclined to say like, all right, it's worth it. Brabel, I think, is a good head coach. I don't think he's at that level. It's not like he's giving you a big edge schematically, like to your point, his whole thing is leadership, CEO type head coach, players coach, we're going to play hard, and he's done a good job with all that stuff, but I had him all the way down to 17, 'cause I'm a little nervous about maybe what the next three to five years could look like for my two or more-- - Point to your point, you say, how long could this follow him, it could easily be the rest of his career. - It can be. - It's too, he, it's almost seemed like he's lost belief in himself. We kind of understand what's so, I mean, a horrible lapse, an ongoing lapse in judgment. - Yeah, we'll see. It could be a career that ended sooner than it should have. It could be, it very well could be, all right. When you said Harbaugh before, I wasn't sure which Harbaugh you're going to go with, that, because I had him right next to each other. They were nine and 10 on my list. I'm going with John Harbaugh here. Now, Jim Harbaugh, by the way, 62 years old, which I'm like, I thought it was younger, and John Harbaugh is 63, but 18 years, and I know people say, all right, well, they were about to fire him before he got Lamar Jackson, which I understand that, but still, if you look at the whole resume, you did have a career before Lamar Jackson, and it was going in the wrong direction, but there was still, they won a Super Bowl, before that era. So 18 years, 12 playoff births, a Super Bowl for championship game appearances. I really like his ability to identify coaching talent. You've hit on that theme quite a bit here, but Mike McDonald bringing him in to the Ravens, even the Todd Munkin move. Like that was kind of an unorthodox move at the time, where I was like, this guy's been around for a while, is this really the right coach, and they put up unbelievable numbers, the first year there with Todd Munkin. He's been willing to play a different way when they first had Lamar, and it was like, we are going to run the quarterback a lot, and not every, a lot of teams were doing that in the NFL at that time. Defensively, he's been willing to evolve with different coaches there. So we'll see what this chapter looks like with the Giants. I feel like the Giants media is in love with the guy, but I understand why they're very excited, because they haven't had a head coach that has looked this competent in a very long time. So yeah, I've got him here at 12, I guess, overall it is, with my pick. - I had him at 11. As you may remember, the last time we talked, I dabble a little bit in questioning the start, he had gotten off to with the Giants, or I thought he was a little too focused on like creating Ravens North. And especially with the coaching staff, I thought he's kind of bringing in his buddies, which as I may say-- - That makes it a little nervous, yes. - But it didn't used to be who he was, and he literally signed the foldback and the punter from the Ravens. I'm like, "John, I know you wanna have some familiar faces around, but one of your things has always been, you're the guy comfortable with the new, 'cause he's always been on the cutting edge. I mean, analytics, but I think they ace the draft. I really liked the Giants draft. I think he's getting more comfortable there. To your point on the Mar, by the way, but he's about to get fired, where he got the Mar. One thing I always respond to that point, when people make it, you know how many coaches don't win? And when they have elite players, like it's still a skill to have an elite quarterback and win. Not everyone does it. Harbaugh has always done it. And I think, yeah, his draft of the Giants made me more comfortable because I thought I was worried they were telegraphing, they were going to force skill player picks to me, which I thought was kind of like a get rich quick scheme for where this roster was. So I was very impressed. They take the linebacker, they take the guard and just kind of back to like methodical team building. I'm feeling pretty good about John Harbaugh, the Giants, right? I like your coaching staff point, though, because I am nervous, the Matt Nagy, Brian Callahan and Roman. I'm kind of like, wait a minute. Again, for what I just said, he's in the past, he's thought outside the box. It doesn't feel like he's doing that here, but let's give him, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt after 18 years now, maybe, you know, six weeks into the season. Might I be ripping him? Yes, it's entirely possible, but for now in the off season, we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. All right, let's take one more break. We'll come back. We'll zoom through some of these, but we'll see where we disagree with the rest of our draft picks. All right, we're back here on the ringer NFL show. All right, Pat, you're up. I think we're at the 13 overall pick. Who do you got? Who I had 13, Liam Cohen. And you could argue he should be more in the Ben Johnson theory, a very, very similar year to Ben Johnson last year. Actually, one more games than Ben Johnson did. I'm just, we have a little bit longer track record to go on to Ben Johnson. Since we have those lines years as play a collar, which is only a few seasons, we got a good play calling year out of Lee, Liam Cohen, of course, and Tampa Bay, just be a little more comfortable, fully believing in Ben Johnson, but Liam Cohen, I mean, past every test as a first year head coach for the Jaguars, where it might sound silly to call this a micro-goal, but I feel like he aced his micro-goal of fixing Trevor Lawrence, at least for a year, and then the macro-goal, of course, always wind divisions, make the playoffs, maybe make the Super Bowl, and I don't think anyone was expecting that in year one. So he achieved the first objective, have to get the quarterbacks career back on track. And then, I think to everyone's surprise, greatly over-achieved, they went in 13 games. He kind of emerges as a leader to similar to Ben Johnson, in that regard, we're kind of like a hard-o in public, in creating like an us against the world, type atmosphere for the Jaguars. Well, him against Trevor Lawrence was a fun early, you know, he's just yelling at him, like in between plays, he's yelling at him. So yes, that edge, I don't think we were, you know, at least I was not that familiar with it. And so just another guy where you view like all like elite play-cars, kind of like analytics guys, like, no, he's also like a tough guy. And I, off to a great start, I would not be surprised of Liam Cohen, quickly ascends this list. I had a 13th on my board as well. Listen, his last two stops, he's gotten the most out of Baker Mayfields. We can't forget that, that, you know, Baker has had some ups and downs. That was his best year with Liam Cohen, and then he gets the most out of Trevor Lawrence here. So again, that seems like it could be a special skill there for Liam Cohen. I do think he's got some volatility to him, you know, just some of the episodes. Oh, yeah. Maybe a little bit for Sunny Tum, who we haven't talked about yet. Yeah. Let's see. Where are we going to get to him? But, yeah, the thing with Salah, the stuff with Lawrence, but maybe that is just an edge. It just may be a little bit nervous and it's only been one year. I kind of want to see it a little bit longer. But you're right. There's a chance if we did this next year, he would be way higher. So I had him at 13, guy I had at 11, this is going to be my next pick here, Demiko Ryan's is next on my list here, Pat, three seasons, made the playoffs every year with the Texans has won a playoff game every year, but lost to every year is kind of the same. They made the playoffs. They win the wildcard round and they lose in the divisional round now. It's either that he hasn't been able to figure out the OC higher or it's at CJ Stroud. It's just not going to be the guy we thought he was going to be after his rookie year. And I don't know which one of those, it is what we'll see what it looks like this year. But Demiko Ryan's is going to give you a high level defense that can compete against the best quarterbacks and the best offences in the NFL and it is kind of that Mike McDonald mold that we talked about very early in this episode. We've seen that consistently with Demiko Ryan's in the playoffs against good quarterbacks. They seem to always give those guys a hard time. So I thought Demiko Ryan's is giving me a good floor. If we can figure out the quarterback OC situation, we actually have a chance to compete for Super Bulls with him as my head coach. He was my next guy to extremely high floor, it's just what's the ceiling. He's kind of like a mere image to Kevin O'Connell or he's the defensive version to Kevin O'Connell. Unlike Kevin O'Connell, he hasn't found the right lieutenant yet on the other side of the ball. And maybe there is no right lieutenant with CJ Stroud. Maybe he's just too volatile and the project's going to fail. So they get another quarterback, but he's got to figure out his stuff on offense because he's got to figure it out on the leadership front and he's got to figure it out on the defense of coordinating front. All right. 15th overall pick, Pat, who do you, this is the last guy? I guess we got two more here in the top half. Who else is in the top half of the NFL coaching ranks for our expansion team? Shane Stuykin. I feel like I'm kind of going out on a limb like that's who I have. 14th on my big board. All right. Make the case for Shane Stuykin. I feel like I can never decide, like, are we giving him too much credit for just keeping a dysfunctional franchise on the tracks or does he deserve blame for just staying mired at 500? I really think it's the former, or this is such a tough situation. And then you have the change in ownership. But to be at 500 after three or four years, I forget if it's three or four, with that level of dysfunction and this poor of quarterback play, I just think clearly he's a good leader. He's keeping the locker room reasonably together with the teams and ever falling apart. And to be at 500 where they're just not getting anything from the quarterback position is so impressive. And it seems like it's screaming out or if they can get anything at quarterback, the Colts, they found their guy and are finally going to be back on the right track. But there's so many variables to play with Shane Stuykin. It's difficult to rank kind of no matter what the parameters are of your head coach exercise. The record's not good. 25 and 26, no playoffs, eight, nine wins every single year. Yet I'm with you. He got the most out of Daniel Jones for whatever eight to 10 weeks last year before that. He got the most out of Jalen Hertz when he was his OC. And I don't look at these Colts teams. I'm with you and think like, oh my gosh, they're underperforming their talent. I'm kind of like, oh my, well, it lasts you. I'm just like, how is this happening here with Daniel Jones? I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he, if they have a down year here and he's fired and I'm another team, he's absolutely on my list of guys. I would say, let, let's bring him in. We can give him better infrastructure here and really give him a chance to succeed because I do like the things he does offensively. So I think that's a good pick there. All right. The 16th overall pick that I think is time Nick Sirionny, which Eagles fans are going to be mad at me about, you know, the half of them might be mad at me because you have them way too low. How can you have these other schmaux ox above him? Give me a break. Look at his resume. And half of them are going to go, how can you have him that high? He sticks. Okay. You don't have to do anything there. But the resume is kind of laughable, you know, that when you go to the pro football reference page and it's five seasons, five playoff bursts, two Super Bowl appearances, one championship, a winning record, all five seasons, the fifth best winning percentage in NFL history. Wow. I don't have any regrets about having him at 15. When I look at it, he, what's he bringing to the table schematically? Very little. There's scrambling to find a new OC every single year. I don't believe that he puts the coaching staff together. Like it's not like he went out and recruited Vick Fangell, who has been a big reason for the team's success that is done for him. His game management is okay, but I don't think it's anything that gives them like a huge edge in terms of culture. They're trading their best wide receiver, and he also didn't seem to see eye to eye with the legendary offensive line coach who left the team in the off season. So I look at all those things, and I'm just trying to be honest. I'm legitimately trying to be an owner and say, if I had my choice of any of these guys, would I choose him above these other guys? And I don't actually think I would. What do you think? No, he's just a classic. What does he do? And there's only one way we're going to find out. It's when he inevitably gets fired, because I think even how he Roseman has kind of bought into the perception, or I always make the comparison, the Eagles are so much more like a baseball organization than a football organization, where they're an outlier in the NFL, where these single most important person in the franchise is the GM, as usually the coach or the quarterback, of course. The Eagles are the rare team where it's unquestionably the GM. At least we think it is. How he Roseman really benefits from this perception, because if something goes wrong, then it's like, well, it's clearly to Seriani, you know, it's not the roster. And I just feel like we're not going to get an answer on Seriani until he's gone. And then maybe like, oh, wow, maybe it's like a Mike Tomman thing. Like we had no idea what Nick Seriani was doing, like keep the locker room together, prevent it from getting even worse, you know? And I agree with you, he's got the kind of stuff where it's either intangible or it's just not visible to the public, because he's not calling plays, like, what is he really do? That's when you watch the Eagles games, like, what does he do? He's yelling at the crowd right now. I can see that. I'm not really sure what else I can see that he's doing. And we're not going to find out. I feel like until he's gone, and that might not be fair, but that is life in the NFL. That's it. Listen, you can't really make the argument that another coach would have done better with the Eagles over the last five years, because they want a Super Bowl and have been to two, and they've been in the playoffs every year. But again, at the same time, like you said, we won't know until he's with a different GM, a different, you know, he's, yeah, he has to assess. the coaching staff, he has to find his own defensive coordinator. What does it look like? And I'm not confident he would have the same type of success at all with those other things. So that's why I've got him down here with the 16 pick. All right, 17. Pat, who do you got? Kevin's to fansky. Some people that could say he could be way higher. Really? Yeah. Wow. I have a way lower. Okay. Maybe I should have. Okay. Maybe I should have. Give me the cell here. I was hoping I was going to be low on him to be honest, because he gets so much credit as a QB whisper. Is he actually a QB whisperer? Because maker may feel the head success of that. And Joe Flacco had success without him. To me, I was viewed as like he didn't solve QB in Cleveland. And maybe he didn't deserve the blame for the Deshan Watson fiasco. But one way I look at that is that he didn't have a forceful enough personality to convince ownership, to convince the front office not to do it. For a while, he said, I don't know that he felt strongly that they shouldn't do it. Yeah, so I kind of looked at that. And if he's really so good, why does he keep stripping himself a play calling duties? But then all those negative things aside, he did do things in Cleveland and quite literally had not been done since they were reincarnated as a franchise where they never won 11 games. He did it twice. It's always so hard to know what these guys who are graded on a curve. Like what was luck or what was like sheer force of skill in an impossible situation? I am open to the possibility that I had begun to underrate just how difficult it is to do what he did in Cleveland. So I think he was a worthy second chance guy. Let's see what he can do and a slightly more confident organization. You know, the Falcons are kind of dysfunctional themselves. But yeah, I'd begun to sour on him by trying to maintain an open mind like listen, you go do that in Cleveland. You know, basically, he did that in Cleveland. I'm interested to see how he does with the second chance. I thought he might have been the hardest guy on this list to rank, honestly, because I'm with you. I'm like, I kind of like him. I kind of feel like his second act is going to be better than his first act. But one playoff win in six seasons again, it was clear. You know, we always have to say it was Cleveland. He gives up on Baker Mayfield. They chased to Sean Watson. I think he wanted Watson. I think everyone's going to try to separate themselves from that decision. But I think he thought Watson was a, you know, off field stuff aside. Watson had been an excellent quarterback to that point in the end of superstar. He was a superstar. He clearly thought he was upgrading a quarterback, and then he gets the worst version of Dishon Watson there. The offense the last two years has been 30 second in DVOA back-to-back seasons. I know the quarterback situation's bad, but can you get me to like 27th? If you're a great, you know, offensive coach, he couldn't do that. So I think he has a chance, but I do think his reputation probably outpaces his actual accomplishments at this point in his career. So let's see what it looks like first to Fansky. I had him outside my top 20 just when I was looking at kind of ranking these guys on my board. All right, 18th overall pick. Our first guy who is a first-time head coach. So I'm going out on a limb here. I think Jesse Mentor's going to be pretty good. Let's see if this looks stupid. A year from now, three years from now, five years from now, we've never seen him be a head coach in the NFL. I like that he worked his way up. He goes Indiana State, Georgia State, then he's a defensive assistant. It's not like he was just somebody's. No, he was somebody's son because his dad was an assistant coach for those chipkills. Oh my gosh. Of course. Well, listen, that's how the NFL works, whatever. He's worked with both the harbors who we've already had on this list to have very different personnel, different way of doing things. But I think that's a pretty good coaching tree. And it was very good with his job with the chargers the last two years. So I think Mentor has a chance to be very good. And I'm going to go out on a limb and take him over some of these other guys who already have resumes. I had him, quote, only 20th, but I had him in the same range. And just very bullish on two. Like the other brothers, Harbaugh, disciple, if you want to call him that, he's just been like Mike McDonald. He's just been lights out everywhere he's gone. And I know he's young, but he's been a quick riser for reasons because everywhere he's gone, he's had success. And he's really well positioned hit the ground running with the talent base they have with the Ravens. And to me, he was he's the archetype of what you looked for in a first time head coach. I know he's not off in some play collar, but you know he's handling his side of the ball. He seems to have some of that innovative energy we've talked about where the chargers defense really, really good the past two years. And he just seems like kind of the right guy at the right time for the Baltimore Ravens. I love the Jesse Mentor higher. I think he could be skyrocketing up this list if we did it again next year. All right. Number 19, who do you got that? Kellen Moore. And he was one of last year. Oh, we disagree on this one too. I have him. I have in my bottom five here Pat, make the cell on Kellen Moore. I can see why you'd have him in his bottom your bottom five. I don't know if he's a one trick pony. His thing is let's play fast on offense. Like is that his one trick? I don't know. I mean, he was one of last year's biggest overachievers. He is kind of quietly had success ever always gone. Maybe with the exception of the cowboys, maybe they should have been better near the end, but who knows what's real there with the meddling you get from the ownership and the front office. And that's just what I want to know about Kellen Moore because he's being great on our curve because they had truly non-existent expectations for the Saints last year. And he did clear them. It's does he have a second act? Because now there are expectations. Okay. Yeah. You're doing your play fast thing. Are you going to be able to adjust on the league adjusts? But he did much better than I was expecting as a first time head coach for the Saints. And he's another guy where I'm open to seeing like what the second act is for Kellen Moore. I'm open to it. Now we're at the area of the list where these guys a lot of them don't have lengthy resumes. So you're kind of just again, it's just projecting. Who do I kind of like here? I feel like everywhere he's been, there are two side like you actually don't know whether he did a good job. They kind of let him go. The charger is like, did he do a good job? Everybody kind of got fired after that. The Eagles, it's like, did he do a good job? They won the Super Bowl. But everyone hated the offense for like 15. I know. I know. It's it's complicated. He did he do a good job coach. He has that title. And we still don't know. I'm with him. Maybe he will be good. They were six and 11 last year. But you're right. The vibes now are better with the Saints than I thought they were going to be. Maybe they got something in Tyler's shock. Maybe he can develop him and let's see. I just didn't feel as confident with him over some of these other guys. But I like the swing there. But we are on opposite sides of maybe the the belief in Kellen Moore here going forward. I took another coach who listen, the resume is not great. But I own with Dave Canalis is sort of my version of Kellen Moore probably about where I'm like, all right. It kind of hasn't happened for him yet. But I feel like there are little morsels that there's something there. You know, they made the playoffs last year. I know it was the NFC South. I get it. He's 13 and 21 in two years. I feel like that roster has just bit like we look at the depth chart these last two years. And you're just like, how is anyone winning any games with this depth chart? So it feels like he can do some things offensively. I don't know how much he's limited by, you know, some of Bryce Young's shortcomings. He seems like a reasonable guy. I just wrote, I want to see more. I think he has a chance. It's not the strongest endorsement. But that's kind of where we are on this list. That's the only place you can be with him. But I'm in the same spot as you were. I feel like it's notable that the bottom hasn't fallen out with the Carolina Panthers. Like you said, the talent just hasn't been there. And I know they made the playoffs with a losing record. The defense did get a lot better last year. We have seen incremental improvement from Bryce Young. It's possible. It's a hopeless situation because Dave Tepper seems to be one of the more metal some owners and like all of North American sports. But I don't want to sound like I'm damning a faint praise. But I think it is noteworthy that he's had any success whatsoever with Dave Canalis. And I'm interested to see like, you know, he can maybe continue to gain cash with ownership and like, guys, just trust me. Let me do this my way. We're going to have success. And he's a guy maybe the right track doesn't even exist in Carolina. But I think he's maybe found it. And I am very fascinated to see where Dave Canalis's career goes from. All right. Who you got? Who's next? What are we on? 22, I want to say. They're about. I shouldn't. Clint Kubeck probably ahead of Kevin Moore or 21. Sorry. Go ahead. Is that that's he? Oh, yeah. Clint Kubeck. Who's never coached a game? And you know, Clint Kubeck, you don't really have to wonder how we got a head coaching job. His last name helps. But like, if we threw out the Nepo baby and how we would this would have been a 25 then a podcast. So yeah, that's true. We mentioned them. I like mentioning them. You like mentioning them. But what are we going to do? We don't make the hires around the end. We do not. And nepotism in the NFL, it gets you in the door. Success is usually required to sustain it. Maybe not in Brian Sean. I don't know. But the best system in the NFL, what is it? It's the Mike Shanahan system. There's so many different variations of at this point. There's the Kyle Shanahan variations. There's the Gary Kubeck variations. He's the latest, greatest version of this offense. He has all the best offensive mentors. He clearly knows how to put it into practice. If he's winning a Super Bowl with Sam Darnold. And again, I said in a league where the cycles, I feel like it meant condensed from five to 10 years to two to three years. He's running maybe the best version of the best offense and the league right now. And maybe that will go awry as a head coach. Maybe to go awry for this tortured franchise and the Raiders. I thought he was by the book higher by the Raiders though. And I have very fascinated to see where Kubeck goes and begs. I had him a few spots lower. But again, we're at the point where we're going off just. I'm not sure. Let's see what this guy has. So I'm not saying he's going to stink. You know, like he did a great job last year with the Seahawks, with Darnold. And maybe it'll work with the Raiders. Maybe, you know, does he have kind of that, you know, second pitch, that third pitch? I think those are some of the things we have to see. And Dosa, can he develop a rookie quarterback? Can he be successful in that culture and environment, which is going to be very different than Seattle? Maybe. I'm with the eye that was a good hire I would be excited if I was with a Raider's fan. I just had him a few spots slower because with the 22nd overall pick I had the guy you just take a shot at that. I'm going to make the case that Brian Shottonheimer did a good job last year and might actually be a decent I'm not going to say great we're at this point in the draft but might actually be a decent head coach specifically in the environment that he's in so he goes seven nine and one last year. Now the offense was very good last year you know he brought in the Clayton Adams from the Cardinals and Shottonheimer's designing the offense I like that offense I thought that offense worked well George Pickens if you told me George Pickens was going to go from Mike Tomlin to Brian Shottonheimer and have a career year I would have been like give me a break that I don't think that that's going to happen that is what happened last year with George Pickens he screwed up the defensive coordinator hire with Maddie Berfluss however to the point you've made with some other coaches recently they made a change they're not sticking with it another year just to keep his buddy around they they hired Christian Parker from the Eagles which I thought was an inspired hire the guy who's worked with Vic Fangio at various stops so I like what they did a defensive coordinator it's not his is not Brian Shottonheimer's fault they traded Michael Parsons before the season like if they just didn't make that Michael Parsons trade last year they might have been a playoff team last year like that's a big thing that they have happened right before the season started so by the way one of the five best non-quarterbacks in the NFL is not going to be on our team this year have fun with it so I feel like he's got a little bit of the old school approach of his dad mixed with some of the Pete Carroll energy from Seattle like it kind of seems like the players genuinely do like him and he's not just kind of this you know hard headed like his dad like he has that part of him but he's also got this other part of him I'm kind of bullish on fraud again in this situation in Dallas which very unique you've got Jerry Jones you've got a lot of loud voices a lot of attention in that situation I'm changing my tune from a year ago when I thought it was a terrible hire I actually think he might be okay and a decent head coach in that environment am I crazy that is that's the only thing with Shottonheimer's I feel like very clearly he's being graded on a curve because yes I think all of us expected him to probably be the worst coach in the NFL and he very clearly was not even close to the worst coach in the NFL last year I just couldn't decide when I was doing my rankings like is that the only reason you know I'm feeling good about him because like he cleared the lowest possible bar he's someone or I really need to see him do it again but he's also somewhat the proved the value of experience you I think 25 years as an NFL assistant you could tell that last year where he was kind of emptying his book of tricks now did he do it all in year one like as he will there be a second act I'm using that phrasing him but can there be a second act of Brian Shottonheimer because kind of like Helen Moore the expectations I guess the expectation joy is kind of high in Dallas but you know amongst people like us who have fans ourselves like complex NFL thinkers I had very low expectations for Brian Shottonheimer he blew by those he's kind of the ultimate all right let's see you do that again I'm like what has now become one of the hardest places to coach the Dallas Cowboys because you're just an extension of the honor it's a good point and it's actually a reminder to me that this is an expansion team so I'm not it's not Jerry it's not but still I don't know I feel like there's a profile there that maybe could work maybe I'll look very stupid at the end of next season all right 23 we're at the bottom 10 here Pat let's see who do you got who's the 23rd overall fit who do I have next here I think it was Dan Quinn which that's what I was looking at my real ranking sorry not Dan Quinn my next guy that I and I ranked was Robert Salah actually who I'm wishing I had ranked ahead of Kevin Stephanski now Stephanski is the first one where I regretted it off the bat I'm like why do I have to fancy there Salah was a retread who didn't get nearly as much of attention as John Harbaugh and Kevin Stephanski and I think maybe he deserved it or he's not the first guy to get broken by the New York jets he absolutely will not be the last Adam Gace literally just got back into coaching after like after getting fired by the jets that's how long it took him to process what happened with the jets so this is the second time Adam Gace has come on come up in a podcast I've done this week Pat because someone said Carl Anthony Towns took smelling salts you know before they make six years ago and anytime I hear that I'm thinking of the Adam Gace crypto what an upset Adam Gace is getting a lot of pub on the ranger podcast network here but sorry go ahead. No it's no Adam Gace so he'll be a legend forever for a variety of different reasons but Salah he gets fired by the jets he goes back to 49ers immediately kind of puts his coaching career back together duct taped and glued together a defense that was ravaged by inner injury I think no one really questions his leadership ability I think he's a really great defensive coordinator he made the right office of coordinator hire and Brian Dable least for short term purposes maybe I'm not not on board with that was a short term solution but Salah was a guy I thought deserved better in New York you don't ever get better though when you're the head coach of the jets I'm very interested to see Robert Salah take two in Tennessee. I was thinking the best version of Salah would be like a poor man's version of Demiko Ryan's I think. He's not that level of defensive coach I don't only use as nearly as good as Demiko Ryan's but he has been a good very good defensive coach even with the jets like you mentioned with the jets with the Niners he's done it multiple stops there so I think that there's a chance that this works I mean it all depends on whether they develop Kim Ward if he's really good then again now that Texans comparison might be apt if they can build up that defense and now you have a young quarterback who's pretty good so I had him a little bit lower but not not that much lower I'm not that bullish on Salah but I see a scenario where potentially could work out so maybe the poor man's Dan Campbell maybe it's aimed for that Robert Salah I know he's deep into mine Campbell offensive similar some similar qualities I feel like I'm going to go with another ball defensive coach which you had I think in your article you said but you bumped him I'm gonna go with Dan Quinn it doesn't feel great I'm not gonna tell you it feels great it's just you feel like you're limited with the ceiling with Dan Quinn but eight seasons six in Atlanta two in Washington three playoff births has been to the championship game twice in eight seasons like that's pretty good has been in the Super Bowl once I just see a solid competent coach I wrote down Pat the modern day version of Ron Rivera that's kind of how I feel he's some yeah he is very similar to Ron Rivera but he likes people like him they're kind of like oh this guy such a nice guy such a great guy but you like okay but is he actually a good coach I'm not sure he really gives you a big edge anywhere but I think he'll set a certain floor and I do think this is an interesting season for him they change both their coordinators they're going in kind of drastically different directions they are do these moves pay off or is he out of a job next season I think that's the question with Dan Quinn it is kind of the opposite though of like you know Kyle Shannon hamburger hey TQ you want to go play around a golf yeah he's like cool man I'm in hey you want to go get a beer TQ yeah he's probably a great hang and so maybe if you're at this point in the draft and you're an owner you're like I might as well get someone like hanging out with to your point he's universally loved he got an A plus I believe in the NFL PA survey he's a genuine players coach I copied something I had for my article though where I feel like last year at Dan Quinn there's just a reminder of kind of the limits of personality based coaching and a league where it comes down to personnel of course but it also really comes down to play calling but to your point I just he doesn't give you an edge in those departments but there is something to be said for me a coach the players actually want to play for and even as the Cowboys defensive coordinator where he may be over achieved players love playing for him so yeah yeah if you've got like the 25th pick you can maybe do worse than Dan Quinn all right who do you got bad who is next on your list we're down to the final eight here no one's going to be happy with it but Mike McCarthy and yeah you're starting an expansion team maybe you're not really thinking that long term you just think it's someone make us respectable that's what Mike McCarty he won 61.8% of his games in Green Bay he won nearly 60% of his games in Dallas he won 13 games back in 2007 he's won 12 games at least three times this decade clearly he can coach clearly it burns out quickly where he's kind of like he's almost like an English soccer style coach where you're not bringing him in there for 10 to 12 years this point you're bringing him in for like a three to four year job hopefully you can make a super bowl in that time period like he's not very inspiring but we're out as welcome but he should be an NFL head coach he's down the slow because yeah not a long description unbelievable description I'll picture I feel like Pat there's a case and I agree with you know pretty much everything you said there I do feel like there's a case where if a member of the McCarthy family is listening to this they're like screw you guys like there is a case that he belongs significantly higher much higher and over some of these other guys you made the point 18 seasons in the NFL he's made the playoffs 12 times he's got a super bowl win he's been in the championship game four times wow in his career there is a case I don't want to make it I'm not gonna make it because I don't believe it you don't want to make it you don't believe it there is a case that Mike McCarthy is actually underrated now I don't know if you saw when John Harbour got hired there was kind of a graphic going around it like is there really a difference between John Harbour and Mike McCarthy look at these resumes I would argue that Mike McCarthy has been blessed with great quarterback play throughout the entirety of his career Brett Farve Aaron Rodgers and Dak Prescott and that now he is not going to have that luxury with the Pittsburgh Steelers and he's into his credit, he won a lot of regular season games with those guys. So, your point, it didn't always last a long time, but he won a lot of regular season games, winning percentage over 600 for his career. I don't think it's going to go well here in his next tenure. And so, if I'm an expansion team or if you're the Pittsburgh Steelers and you have an uncertain quarterback situation, 62-year-old Mike McCarthy, who I don't think is going to be an innovator or have a lot of new ideas, that's not the guy I want. So I did have him actually next on my big board, so I would have taken him where you took him there, because I think the resume is strong enough, but I don't think either of us would be that excited about it. No. He's a resume they start throw. Yeah. That actually is good. You know, I've never made him as you consider the possibility Mike McCarthy is a great head coach. Let's see. He does it in Pittsburgh. With that quarterback situation, I'm willing to change my tune if we do this exercise again. We have to maybe be talking in the hall of fame from Mike McCarthy. If you go back and set up this year, I know it's late, late into the podcast. I know we've been talking for a while, but set up down. I've got this next guy is also kind of polarizing. Zach Taylor of the Bengals. He was my next two. He was? Okay. So this is my next pick. And again, if you're a member of the Taylor family and you're listening to the this, you're like, come on, he's done a lot more than some of those other guys. Seven seasons. Now, he's only been in the playoffs twice, but he's been to the championship game, both those years and to the Super Bowl once we's five and two in the playoffs. Zach Taylor, which is that a Joe Barrow stat is that a Zach Taylor stat is that a Jamar chase that is that a Luanna rumo stat. You know, we can certainly have that conversation, which I think is the reason why we have him at this spot. They've now gone three straight seasons without making the playoffs. Now, the case for Zach Taylor would be the offense is pretty much good whenever Joe Barrow is healthy. I know some people are like, I don't like the scheme. They just let Joe Barrow sit in shotgun and take shots on the outside. It's like, that's actually worked very well for them. But that hasn't been the problem. The problem has been that their defense is stunk and that Joe Barrow hasn't been healthy. So the case against Taylor would be he's getting carried just by the talent of Joe Barrow , Joe Barrow, Chase and T Higgins, and he doesn't really give them an edge anywhere. So I wouldn't be in a hurry to hire him. I don't think he likes things. I just think he's kind of clumped in with a lot of these middle tier coaches that we've talked about here. You hit the most important point with Zach Taylor where I think we would know like a second gear was coming, like he's never going to be a special head coach. But you just don't take it for granted that you will have success even with elite players. And when those guys are healthy, he knows basically just get out of the way and let them score a million points and anytime Joe Barrow and Jamar Chase are healthy, they score a million points. So he's not holding back the offense and maybe he's not propping up anything else, but maybe it's not his fault. It's a dysfunctional front office and ownership group where Zach Taylor I think is certifiably not a special coach, but certifiably they score a million points when they're healthy. And like some people you cannot take that for granted, like that doesn't just happen and he does deserve really some credit for the offense stays on time when it's healthy. Like think about this. If he had how your Roseman as his GM and the organization got him Vic Fangio as his defensive coordinator, I mean, we might be talking about his pro football reference page like they might have a couple of super balls already. So again, the infrastructure, what each coach is being asked to do, where he's given help or he's not given help matters a lot in this exercise. All right, we're down to the final six, the audience wondering who's going to be last in this draft. Is it going to be my coach? No, I think it should be my coach, all right, Pat, who do you have here next? Next I have Todd Bowles and I make a comparison for Todd Bowles. A lot of times people make to quarterbacks where he's not going to be the reason you ever win a Super Bowl. I think I've seen enough that with a talent and enough roster, you could win a Super Bowl with Todd Bowles and I think he's kind of allowed himself to evolve on offense. I know he's a defensive-minded head coach, but he had a reputation as like the most stodgy, conservative guy you could ever have. When he had Tom Brady, I think maybe it opened his eyes to the way modern offensive football needs to be played where he's a pretty solid defensive coordinator. Despite people's belief, he never held the offense back. Is he a special head coach? Doesn't really seem like it, but in the right situation, I think you could win a Super Bowl with Todd Bowles. He has damning with faint praise, but a solid coach never going to be anyone's first choice. But yeah, if you're down to say your 25th choice, you might be pretty happy with Todd Bowles as your head coach. Yeah, I couldn't decide. I'm like, do I have him too low? Like is he a hard one to rank always? He's a hard one to rank always. I'm not sure that the guys we've picked over him are definitely better, yeah. This is just a lot of these guys are clumped together. He's got a 452 winning percentage for his career, but to your point for those seasons where with the New York Jats where literally nobody has won. So I can't count that really against him. He's had three playoff appearances in four seasons with the Tampa Bay box. Now, only one playoff went back in eight seasons as a head coach. So that's not great. I do feel like he can fluster a certain level of quarterback and offensive coordinator. Like we've seen that in Philadelphia when the Eagles playing them. However, I don't know that I trust him against the, it's kind of the opposite that we mentioned with McVay. I'm like McVay. I think he, him against Banjo, him against Mike McDonald, he's going to have something for him. It's going to be a fair fight. I feel like Bowles gets exposed a little bit when he goes up against that level of offense sometimes, whether it's in the playoffs or the regular season. Now, there's a case that he's got kind of a good eye for offensive coordinator talent when you look at deep canalus and then Liam Cohen. But is that true or not, because they had just bizarre last year, they let him go. And now they're bringing in Zach Robinson, who I don't, I don't know about you. I didn't watch that Falcons offense last year, I was like, oh, who's, who's game in this bad boy now? Go get me that guy. So I'm a little concerned. I don't think the arrow is pointing up for Todd Bowles. He's 62 years old. I would take him as my defensive coordinator. If that's kind of what happens with him, you know, after he's done in Tampa, but I would kind of shoot higher if I were an expansion team, I was looking for a head coach, but that's the point of the draft that we're in here. All right. My next one, a first time head coach, Todd Munkin here, Pat 11 years as an NFL assistant, seven as an OC. I was thinking about what, how does this work for Todd Munkin like, oh, good hire, Cleveland. Is there a Bruce Ariens case for Todd Munkin, Pat? Is that he wrote down? He wrote down Bruce Ariens for Todd Munkin, like, where this could be the great outcome here is that you get a lifetime of experience coming together for first time head coach and there's 60s. And a guy who's always been like pretty successful in whatever his role was, even as like the Southern Mississippi head coach, and it just will a lifetime of experience come together. He's been winning the off season. I really liked his quotes, you know, like he seems like he's ready to lead. We know we can call it offense. We know there's a reason he was available and like no one else was really beating down the door to hire this guy. So it's a long shot bet by the Browns, but in terms of long shot bets is maybe one worth taking. We're interesting resume has had a recent success calling plays. And yeah, I actually liked the Todd Munkin hired despite it being kind of strange on its face. Yeah. He's been good at the job. Like you said, he's been good at the jobs he's been asked to do. He just hasn't been asked to do this job. Bruce Ariens was 61 when he got his first head coaching job. And he ended up having a 624 winning percentage with two different franchises and won a Super Bowl. So at least Munkin brings something to the table. You feel like there, you know, whatever juice there is to be squeezed with the offensive talent with the Cleveland Browns, you feel like he will be able to get that out of them. I'm not like bullish that he's going to be Bruce Ariens, but that would be the case where this works out. All right. So now to the final four here, and I will tell you that the guys we have left here, we're on the same page because the guys we have left on my personal big board. They ranked 28, 30, 31 and 32. So the only guy that's been picked so far, I had Kelly more in my bottom four, but I didn't feel that strongly about it. But we have a very similar feels like bottom four on our big boards. Who do you have next here? I had shot a 32 just because I was like, I was just like, believe it, yeah, who's going to do this? Who would do this out there in the Dallas Cowboys? But as we just, he's true, that's true, he's not the coach, I believe in you. We have established that the beginning of my bottom four was Joe Brady, where he's just, he's a King's Barion higher to me where I know he was Josh Allen's offensive coordinator. I kind of just feel like this is happening still because of what he did in college. Like remember what he did with Joe burl and LSU and just kind of this never ending belief that this guy oversaw an historic offense. So there's got to be something there, right? And I'm not saying there's nothing there, but who saw the Joe Brady's work as an NFL assistant and thought this guy's got to be a head coach. And maybe a little bit like Zach Taylor, a good outcome for him would probably be Zach Taylor, 2.0. The offense scores a million points, hopefully someone else takes care of the defense. Maybe they get to a Super Bowl. He just didn't strike me as someone, especially in like a win or a win or else situation that the Buffalo Bills are in to kind of hire you wanted to be making, but it seems like he's been coasting on his reputation for a long time. time, maybe you can have some success with it, but I kind of think that's the situation in Joe Brady. - It's like, if your claim to fame is that the offense is were good when you had two of the best five quarterbacks walking the planet, I kind of need to see more, you know? - Yes. - All right, yes, Joe Borough in college with a loaded LSU team, you did a great job. All right, yeah. Josh Allen, literally every offensive coordinator that has coached Josh Allen, has produced a top five offense with the Bills. Ken Dorsi got fired, but he did. Brian Deval left to be a head coach and didn't look like he was up to the challenge with the Giants as an offensive coach. But you know what, he looked great with Josh Allen. So just why would it be any different with Joe Brady? Now, having said that, Joe Brady and the Bills could win the Super Bowl this year. Like that, you know, they're on that probably anyone's list of like five to eight teams that could actually win the Super Bowl. So I'm not telling you he's gonna be a train wreck and drag him down. It's kind of like, where is he gonna give them an edge? You know, because I know the offense is gonna be good. It's got Josh Allen. It's the same scheme. It's got a good offensive line and the weapons are better than they were last year. I know the offense is probably gonna be top five. And if your offense is top five, you're probably gonna have a very win 11 plus games, which is what happens when Josh Allen's your quarterback. And maybe I will give him this, the hipsters love Jim Leonard Pat as the defensive coordinator. I don't know if you've been listening to him or if you have a view on Jim Leonard, but at least it's like, all right, this seems like he could stay and got to know, but it seems like there's at least some optimism by the hipsters that this guy's gonna be a difference making defensive coordinator. If that's the case, now and maybe Joe Brady's pretty good at the game management or whatever, then I could be like, all right, there was more to you Joe Brady than I gave you credit for. - As someone who used to be hipster adjacent, I like to hear that the hipsters are proving the Jim Leonard higher. And I think Joe Brady, I have to put a fine point on it, it could work. I feel like the bills should have aimed higher and could have aimed much higher and come away with a more impressive, why isn't Jesse Mentor the head coach, the Buffalo Eagles? - Right, right now, but it's not, it wasn't so bad of a move that we could sit here today and say this is no chance of working. It should be, we should have something better to say about who's coaching the Buffalo bills. And I feel like that's what there is to say about Joe Brady. - There are some amazing quotes that like the team social media accounts would not put out, but I personally am appreciating them, you know, from you Pat, with as we get to this point in the draft. All right, we're down to three. We got Aaron Glenn, Mike LaFloor, and Jeff Hathley. We have the same guy. I have Jeff Hathley here with the 30th overall pick, 22 and 26 at BC. Two years as the Packers defensive coordinator, one was good, one was mediocre, hired Bobby Slowick as his OC. Yeah, you know, I'm just kind of like, like, maybe it'll work out, but I'm not convinced it's going to work out for Jeff Hathley. - His signature achievement as a head coach, I say this is a laugh line, but I mean it is true. He won the 2023 Wasabi Bowl at Finway Park. And I don't really, I don't get the thought, he was fine as the Packers defensive coordinator, but he was just fine. He's clearly someone where this is like a league circles reputation kind of higher where there's a reason he was bandied about as a head coaching candidate. He's impressing the right people. Maybe he has intangible qualities that are hard for me, he's like an outside observer to pick up, you know, here sitting in my computer, where it could be in 10 years from now like, wow, yeah, the league insiders were really right about Jeff Hathley, but I just don't see what the league insiders do. - It could be that Steven Ross just read one NFL dot com article about the best candidates in the head coaching candidates and went with him. All right, here we go, big, big decision. It's up to Pat. We are down to 31 and 32. We have Aaron Glenn and we have Michael a floor. It's Pat's pick, whoever he doesn't pick, I get with the 32nd overall pick. Who is here, do it this way. Who is the least attractive, sorry, this feels lame, but we gotta do it this way. Who is the least appealing head coaching candidate for an expansion team right now, Pat? This would be the 32nd pick who would you have? - My lion on Aaron Glenn is this where you could very easily say what was he supposed to do with that team last year? Am I only answer would be not that. Just anything other than that. Like, I know it's the New York Jets. I know this roster was talent, Marron. I know they traded away or two defensive players. What was he supposed to do? He wasn't supposed to do that. He wasn't supposed to be a defensive minded head coach where the defense collapses. And he wasn't supposed to create a viral stat where the first defense not to intercept the pass since the 1930s, since Franklin Roosevelt was president. And it was a hopeless situation where he did not rise above his hopeless circumstances. And he's got to fail to every test, you know. Like, it didn't seem to be of the world's best leader. Definitely failed schematically. It seemed to have no savvy with the media, which you might say, why does that matter? But it definitely does matter. Who's perception very quickly becomes reality. The media is not going to play nice with him. They're basically frothing at the mouth for him to fail. And the Jets media. And maybe he learned a lot, talking about a trial by fire. I saw nothing in Aaron Glinn's 2025, though, that suggests he'll be a head coach this time next year. And I would not be starting my expansion team with him. - So you're going Mike LaFleur over Aaron Glinn. - That's right. - All right. He's official pick there. I actually had a reverse. So there you go, Jets fans. - Yeah, you stick up your chest out a little bit. Not everyone had him 30 second. I had him 31st there. - Aaron Glinn, yeah, you laid it out well. And not only how that season went, Pat, but this offseason, with like, all right. Are we firing ROC? Yes. Wait, do we have a plan for replacing him? Yes, it's Frank Wright, who we kind of thought his days of coaching in the NFL. We're going to be over. Okay, well, what are you doing at defensive coordinator? All right, Wink Martin Dale. We're going to go, you know, he plays the kind of defense I want to play. And Wink Martin Dale's like, "Wait, I thought I was going to call the place." And Aaron Glinn's like, "Nope, that's my superpower. I'm going to call the place." So that ended up being a mess. The game management. I mean, I have the vivid memory. And I can't remember anything, but it happened last year. But Garrett Wilson yelling at him during that London game that I was for some reason watching us here on a Sunday morning, but like, and Kurt Warner is like, what are they doing with this clock game management at the end of the half? So special teams was very good, Pat. So if you're, you know. Fendering special teams was excellent last year. I will say the defense that he left in Detroit was good when he left them. I'm not saying it was great the whole time, but he was doing a good job at the end there. He did rank very highly in that NFLPA survey when he was a coordinator that players really liked him. I think that's why you saw him as a candidate. And you're like, maybe this could work out for him. It would be a great story if he rebounded. And it was like, it was a terrible first season. You know, maybe this little Dan Campbell arc. I don't know. I feel like we felt better about Dan Campbell after a year one, but maybe not. He didn't have a great first year in Detroit. Maybe he'll learn a little bit on the fly. They'll be a little frisky here. But if I were a betting man, I would say, by the time we're sitting down for Thanksgiving, I don't know that he's going to be the New York Chets head coach. So I had him 31, 32. Listen, maybe Michael Flore is going to be a good offensive coach. He's a complete unknown. But when you're hiring the thing, you'll hack it to be your OC. I'm putting you 32 on my list. I think if he hired anyone else, that would have been enough for him to be to jump Aaron Glenn for me. But when he hired the thing, you'll hack it. I'm like, all right, I don't think this is going to end well. So I have La Flore 32. You had Glenn 32. I guess now we're official draft. It ends up being Aaron Glenn with the 32nd pick. All right, that was amazing. We got through that. Yeah, I thought it was going to go much longer. I felt like we hit a good pace, we hit a good groove. We were on the same page with a lot of the guys, but not all the guys. I have a lot of stock now invested in Brian Shottonheimer. You now have a lot of stock invested in Kellen Moore. Maybe we do a little some type of friendly major by CCO. Those teams performed compared to expectations next season. But good exercise to get ready for the 2026 season pack. Well, it's truly exhilarating like that flew by. And yeah, I mean, I probably could have gone three hours if he had one, two. And so it will have to do this again. I'll have to make this an annual thing. I love to invite myself back on your show. No, I love it. Yes. And your column is an annual column that I read every single year. So why not make this kind of a little jumping off point, a little synergy between NBC sports and the ringer. So check out all Pat Darty's work at NBC Sports. Love talking, not just coaching one day. I'll have a month to talk about something other than coaching. But I love talking coaching with him. So that's what we did today. Check out all of his work. Thank you to Christopher Sutton for producing Stefano Sanchez on video and additional production. Supervision by Connor Nevins and Arjuna Ram Gopal. I'm Shio Kapate. We will talk to you next time on the ringer NFL show 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and present in DC Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler or 1-800-MyReset. 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