New York, New Yorkwith Lin-Manuel Miranda

[MUSIC] >> A love story is like a podcast. It's beautiful while it lasts. >> Is that the tagline? >> It's one of two taglines. >> Okay. >> All right. >> That's fine. >> A love story is like a song. >> Quite a good tagline, I would say. >> Yes. >> That's an apt and good tagline. >> Pretty nail on the head for this movie. That's the best way you could sell this movie accurately. >> The war was over and the world was falling in love again. That's a classic tagline for this movie as well. I remember that one. >> Yes. Now, I don't think that represents the film very well because that makes you think that you're going to see a sweeping love story about a functional relationship. >> A post-war romance. >> The war was not over. >> The war doesn't end. That is so true. It's a war ain't over. >> I think it's arguable if these characters ever fall in love. >> Well, okay, fair enough. >> Sure. >> I think that's part of what makes the movie interesting. >> I think it breaks. >> It also gets to the fundamental brokenness of this movie. What makes it such a thorny tagline? >> I think they do in a bad wrestle with. >> Yes. >> But I don't think they do. >> You don't think they fall in love. >> I mean, they fall in love is always meant to improv the way to the scene where they fall in love and they never got it. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> They fall into an intense connection, I guess, is the best way to put it, right? It's like, when he's screaming at her in the cab and then she goes into labor, he does react maybe not with the sort of, not romantically, but there's something there, right? There is an understanding between them that is deeper than they just don't like each other, but I don't know if I could call it. >> I think love. >> Yes. >> I think part of what's interesting about this movie conceptually but is dramatically almost impossible to execute, which leads to why this movie can be such a trying watch, is that I think it's two people who know how lonely they are and know how much chemistry they have together performing and they convince themselves that the other stuff works sometimes. >> I look, we will talk about it. This movie is about putting a modern and complex relationship into a vintage setting. >> Can I throw it? >> And everyone was like, you know, everyone's here at the time. >> I hate it. I hate this. >> Oh, no. >> These ethics should never have met. >> Right. >> Why is they yelling at each other? >> May I throw out my hottest take right off the bat? >> Go ahead. >> And I'm really, I was running through my head and I'm like, I think I stand by this. In the pantheon of Martin Scorsese, Robert DeNiro collaborations, is this the bottom of the list last DeNiro character you want to date? >> Yes. >> Oh. >> Not only date? Honestly, fucking me. >> I don't want to be on a subway car with this much less watch. >> Yeah. >> And that's where he did Cape Fear. Like, I know that there's Cape Fear, but the least criminal character out of all of them. And yet all the other guys undeniably are risen Jimmy Doyle off the stage. >> It's like if the guy from Cape Fear wandered into the bandwagon. >> Yes. >> I mean, like my friend, Caitlin, who loves this movie, this calls him the scariest man on two legs. That's her letterbox. >> It's Reese's. >> Yes. >> And I mean, yeah. And fake limping maybe never even served legs. >> Yes. >> This is very true. Where do you get that Hawaiian shirt? >> But you're like every other Scorsese DeNiro character is on paper, the scariest man who ever walked on two legs. And yet in the execution, you're like, I think I could fix him though. >> And this guy is broke. >> Or you're like he's charming. >> There's something. >> Yeah. >> My hottest take is that I think two thirds of the way through this podcast, you should interrupt it with the last Waltz podcast. That's basically what happened. He was like, I didn't get it on this one. Let me go make the last Waltz. It's actually crashed into wherever you're interviewing. >> You know what's wild? >> That is exactly what happened. Basically direct one to one with Jonathan Demi making stop making sense in the middle of swing shift. >> Really? >> Which is the movie that almost broke him. >> Right. >> And then maybe we'll fight to the stars in the studio. >> Can I go make it? >> Just take it away from me. >> I need to talk to my friend. >> I don't think I can do something fun. >> Right. >> Exactly. >> And they rebound hard. >> I don't know. I think there was more drugs for the New York New York in last Waltz. It's my guess. >> There isn't a trick. >> I noticed that the incredible sense. >> That cocaine has an executive producer. >> Absolutely. >> Title on this one. >> Cocaine. Executive producer by Cocaine. >> Catering by. >> Right. Associate producer affairs. Everyone is just having like four affair. Cocaine pictures presents an adultery production. >> Colombia has shouted out in the credits. >> Well, that's Colombia picture. >> Oh, I see. >> Oh, right. You were -- you thought it was just the country. They wanted to give me a little -- >> No, no. >> Right. >> Ben, then their contribution. >> Thank you, guys. >> This, of course, is a united artist picture. I don't want people thinking I don't know my stuff. >> Of course. >> Yeah. No, because there's -- right. Johnny Boyne means streets. Travis Bickle. I mean, that's a tough cookie. Travis Bickle, I will say. >> Well, we talked about her episode. >> So Travis Bickle and Jason. >> The Berlin scenes, you kind of see it. You see why simple shepherd falls for it and misses the red lights. >> Jake Lomada, I am also just remembering the very obvious fact that Robert De Niro played a lot of tough cookies. >> I guess. >> Then Rupert Pupkin, who's a dreamboat compared to a lot of these guys. >> Yeah. >> Those were rehearsed scenes. >> Yes, that helps to reverse. >> No, wait, no, wait. You think rehearsing is helpful? What do you know about this? You don't have any experience with that kind of thing? >> You love to wing it. >> I love to move it, move it, and I love to wing it. I was reading a bit of Liza's autobiography on the train down here guys. And she talks about these scenes and being like, you know, Marty and Bob were very into improvising and in my first scene, I just said no. And then they were like, try it again. I just said no in lots of different ways. And that is the first scene of this movie. It's just saying no in as many ways as possible. >> And then they forgot to write the part where they fall in love. >> Yeah. >> So wild. >> It is crazy what they, yes, that they threw that at Liza. Jimmy Conway, Goodfellas, just going through the other scary guys. Obviously, Max Cady and Cape Fear. >> I had Grandpa. War with Grandpa. >> Ace Rothstein and Casino. >> What's he going to fish his grandpa trilogy? >> To De Niro? >> Yeah. >> Bad and dirty. >> No, sorry. >> No, I don't know. >> Bad is Jack. >> Bad is Jack. >> Dirty is De Niro. >> Oh, you're bad. >> Dirty and more with Grandpa. >> Right. >> So should there be like a serious grandpa movie? Or should Grandpa, maybe a Christmas movie? >> An autumn with Grandpa. >> Grandpa Clause. >> Grandpa Clause. >> That's fun. >> Grandpa Clause. >> And it's just like, you know, kids sitting on the side. I was like, what's going on with you? >> Yeah. >> I like the idea. >> Kids sitting on De Niro, Santa Clause's lap and him treating it like any late-night talk show interview he's ever done. >> Yeah. >> I don't know what he want from me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I try my best. >> What do you want to bring to the present? >> The present. >> I don't want to bring you. >> I think there's a bad guy in the White House right now, though. >> And his face. >> Born in the USA, plays. >> What's his podcast, Griffin? >> This podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and Dave. >> It's so true. >> Blank Check, Blank Check. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Griffin and David, Griffin and David. >> Griffin, Griffin. >> David, David. >> Mm-hmm. >> It's a podcast. I'm Griffin. >> Yeah, I'm David. >> Yeah. >> I'm Griffin. >> David, stop it. >> That's the end of it. >> Okay. >> That's the last time I want to do it. >> Okay. >> It's a podcast about filmography's directors who have massive success early on in their career and are given a series of Blank Checks to make whatever crazy, passion products they want. And sometimes those chefs clear. And sometimes they bounce baby. We are talking about the films of Martin Scorsese. This mini series is uncontroversially called podcast fellas. I've never felt more confident about the naming of a series. >> Yeah, podcast fellas. >> People think we didn't consider the other options. >> Podcast, podcast. >> Yeah, sure. >> We got a lot of fun. >> Podcast fellas brings me so much joy to say. >> Me too. >> I was talking to our producer Ben Hossley right before you guys came in. And I argued. I said, this is like the only true bounce of his career. >> This is the only movie of his that did not work on any level when it came out. >> Sure. >> And has not been fully reclaimed. >> He has other financial failures that were well regarded. He has other commercial, the okay movies that were not maybe. >> But have become canonized. >> And it's like rude to call like Cundoon a bounce. >> Totally. >> Because it's like, oh, your Dalai Lama movie wasn't a huge hit. >> It's a kind of a mean thing to say. >> But this is a classic bounce. And it is the classic bounce of like they were high on themselves. They were like, we can do anything. This movie can be as long as we want it to be. We can improvise every scene. We can do as much coke as possible. Like I can have multiple affairs. His wife was having a kid. He was getting divorced. He's having an affair with Liza Manelli. She's having an affair with someone else as well, I think. >> A baritone. >> A baritone. >> And it's like a baritone. >> It's like a baritone. I'm touched. - A little touch, a pinch. - You know a little bit about that era. - But you just read the stories about the making of this movie and you just imagine across town, the returns on Star Wars, and the people at United Artists going like, "Cool, so we'll never make something like this again." - Yeah. - Why would we- - Let's close the door. - Put up with this entire school of thinking is dying. - Who's our guest? - Our guest. - Okay. - Today, and this is the first time, I'm saying it a little prematurely, you're about to be coined a Disney legend, correct? - I honestly am. - You are. - By the time this era is, I will be a Disney legend. - I have the parking in Burbank that, be fitting a Disney legend. - Yeah. - What is that? - It's basically, I think it's- - If you wish upon a story, you get your dreams come true. - Imperfected, I wish. - As some memorialized in the Disney animation feature, - Yes, yes. People don't know that it's about you. - Yeah, it's not me. Ariana DeBoas played me. - Yeah, no, this Sunday, D23, they give kind of the silver watch. - It's like a hall of fame. - I've done a lot of Disney stuff, right? - Yes. - I mean, I thought I'd banked it with odd life of Timothy Green, but- - Jam right? - I forgot. - I had to write a lot more to get that Disney legend set. - It wants to be won in the- - Who is the leaves? - The weirdest Disney legends. - I know all four golden girls are Disney legends. - Well, okay, I will tell you, the weirdest sub-stratta of Disney legends is that Disney owns a lot of things that aren't associated with Disney. - Sure. - So there's lots of like, yes, PN folks. - Right, I guess that makes sense. - Where are you like, oh, whoa. - Right, of course. - All right, Bob Costas, Disney legend, or whatever. - I saw Bob Costas at the West Side diner on Broadway in 69th Street, just holding court. That is just a guy I think that anyone wants to talk to if he's just sitting at a diner. You know what I mean? Everyone was just like bothering him. And he was just like, yeah, no, I remember the 96 world series, but you know, he's immediately getting into it with them. Our guest today is Lemon one more hand. - Oh, thank you. - We're trying to the show. Have I shared this story before that I saw Al Gore at Adelta Sky Lounge and he was working that buffet? And I said, this man would have won the president. If they had to-- - If they had to, if he would have won the president. - He would have won the president's seat. (laughing) And he would have won the president's seat. - He would have won as a prize. Like at a claw machine. No, I just watched him work this room. And I was like, this guy was never allowed on the public stage. And I don't know-- - Right, he was too boring on stage. - If he hadn't uncorked it yet, or they were like, this is a little too loose. And it wasn't like he was doing anything wild, but he was like walking through the buffet line. And he was like, mashed potatoes, I want to, but my stomach is gonna kill me on this one. - And I was like, this guy feels too private. It's an allegor thing that feels private. - Everyone was like laughing. - I like your telling tales out of school. I feel like Skylounge, I don't know. - It didn't even feel-- - Oh yeah, it's like there's a cone of silence. - A little cone of silence. - Like who's in luchy as the Disney one? - That's like, that's like, - That's like, - Do you put my camera in the DM? - Yeah. - A little bit. - A little bit. - I mean, I feel weird knowing that record. - Although it's a very funny story. - It was, it was just incredible. - Yeah, but I imagine Bob Costas was a similar kind of, I gotta shout out the Disney legend process. I'm really not seeing any odd names on this. This is all people where I'm either like, "Well, this is an animator. I'm probably not for her." - Yeah, I'm excited to meet her as an idiot's legend. - Or as an idiot's legend. - Was Bell, was that? - Yeah, Bell and Meg. - Oh, they should have been legend. - Your list is great. Well, for what? Bruckheimer is on your list, which Ross was incredible. - As is Dwayne Johnson, the Ross. - They call him sometimes. - Of course, you wrote music for with Moana. - Did he? - Did he thank you for that? - Yes. - And you know what did you say? - And what did you say? - I said, of course. - Of course. - That's what they did. - Who is a true Disney legend? - Yes, that's true. - Who sort of became the John Ratson burger of like Disney Animation, right? - Yes. - Let's throw him into every movie. - A deserving quantity play. He has certainly put in the war. - And Susan Egan, who is Bell, and Megan Hercules, and is the best. And my daughter has had a big beauty in the beast phase lately, so I've been hearing a lot of her voice, her beautiful, perfect voice. I still think it's crazy that I'm beauty in the beast, though that the book she's so proud that she read is Jack in the Beanstalk. And then the guy is like, yeah, yeah, whatever. And she's like, oh, no one understands anything in this town. And I'm like, I think they just don't want to hear the plot of Jack in the Beanstalk. - It's not that I know nothing about a tail. - You know, this is a man. He owns like a bakery or whatever. He's got to make bread. And she's like, trying to tell him about Jack in the Beanstalk. - Not only is that one of the only like, real canonical public domain fairy tales that Disney hasn't adapted to a feature length film, but they like announced it 10 years ago. - They've tried and canceled it. Yeah, they've tried. There's the Mickey short that I think is part of fun and fancy free, but like they themselves know there's not that much juice in the Beanstalk. It can't fill 90 minutes. - No, I mean, that's through. - It did into the woods. - Into the woods, that's really good stuff with it, but obviously builds a lot around it. But it is into the woods, it's funny. And there's the cow, you know. - We live into the woods, yeah. Have we said his name? - We did. Just he legend. He's here. He's here for the third time. - For my writer, thank you. - Yes. So you're two away from becoming a blank check legend, which is an esteemed class. - Oh boy. - Oh yeah, five times. - Five times. - Five times. - Five times. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Disney again hasn't even gotten that. - Yeah, please. - But welcome to the show. Welcome back to the show. - Always a pleasure. - That's really nice of you to say. You're quite busy, I feel. - You're a very busy man. Now the first time you did this podcast was for all that jazz. I was over prepared. - Sure. - No, no, no. - You're over prepared, but you brought the juice. - I do, yeah. - It is often thrown out, are our listeners protective as they are? Once a month, ring their hands and go, is the show becoming too big? Is it just gonna be a press stop? (laughing) And then there will always be the argument of, I think when very famous people have come on the show, they have been good, they have been well curated, and people will always remember when Lynn came on so prepared for all that jazz, as a positive. As he knew the show he was on, he came correct. - Indeed. - But we finished recording that, and off mic, you told us that you were about to start working on New York, New York. - That's right. (laughing) - Yeah. So when we commit to doing this, email you and go, "Hey, know you're crazy busy, any chance you wanna do this, "you make a big confession." - I have not seen the movie New York, New York, and this is my, and again, I'm nervous 'cause first time I came in guns blazing with research and books. This is the first time I said yes to you guys without having seen the movie I ever read. - Right. - Your other parents' first was hook. - Now at this point. - Your other parents was hook, childhood favorite. - Yeah, hook. - I loved it. - I was here to defend Rufio and live live. - Of course. - I love Rufio. - But you did, of course, work in some capacity, not in a huge capacity, right? But I don't actually know what that was. - Yeah, yeah. - On the musical, New York, New York. - And I was instructed by the homie John Cantor as we referred him, 99 thriving. Don't watch the movie. I told him I haven't seen the movie and he said, "Oh, don't watch it. "It has very little to do with what we're making." - It was not knock on the, he was like, he wasn't knocking the film. He was just like, we're doing a different thing. Their goal with the stage adaptation was to sort of tell a lot of New York stories through the lens. And Jimmy and Francine were like, one subplot. But the horn player had his own subplot. And it was sort of like a, well, if we had one more workshop, it's one of those things. Like it would have become the story of the making of the band in the major chord. And like lots of different slices of different strata of New York life. And then there was also kind of becoming a home for orphaned Cantor and Ebtunes and just Cantor tunes. - Right, because of course, Fred Abhead had left this mortal coil. - Yes, but there was stuff. - Yeah, but there was stuff that found a home in that show, a song I'd written with John called "Cheering For Me Now." - Yes. - That's how I got involved actually. John kind of sheepishly asked me, hey, I think the song would work as the opening number. I remember. - I said, great, this is a show tune without a show. Like go with my blessing and then I said, and if you need any more lyrics, it would be a joy to write with you. And so I wrote lyrics for like six more songs on that thing with him, including like kind of just having tiny touches to like some Cantor and Ebtunes that had never found a home. My favorite one in the show, which is not in the movie, it's a song called "Light." That's about Manhattan head. - That's the Manhattan Hinge moment. - Which is like, that was kind of cool part of the show. I saw this show to be clear. I saw it. - It was a very cool part of the show. - You know, because the show was like incredibly big. Like it had this crazy set and then one of the Tony for production design. - It won a set design. - Yeah, yeah. - It won a set design, scenic design. Right. And it had like, what did Susan Stroman do? The choreography. - Yeah, the choreography. - It has dance number. - The hell of the thing. Yeah, amazing dance number. - There was like a whole thing where they were all dancing on the girders, you know? You know, like the guys up on the girders building the skyscraper. - Yeah, and just like this movie, I think there's a great show in there somewhere. - Yeah, it had it's defenders. - There were too many stories and we didn't want to go endless workshops because our composer was 97 years old. - And so like we kind of rushed to Broadway for the right reasons, like out of love. Like we want to make this and we want to make it with John. I think there's a world in which some of those subplots are thinned out and the essence of the show is in there. But the same issue with the show is the issue with this movie, which I just recently saw, which is, God, Jimmy's an asshole. - Right. - And even in the show. - Even though you chilled him out a little bit. - Yeah. - Still an asshole. And everyone who sees the show and sees the movie goes, why is she with them? - Yeah, and it's tough to shake it. And like, I remember when the show was announced, I was like, they can't be adapting that movie 'cause like, what the fuck, that movie can't be-- - Yeah, they were adapting like a quarter of-- - On Broadway, right, you know, 'cause like, like, yells at her, induces labor. She has a baby and he's like, no, thank you. And I'm like, you can't be ending Broadway shows that way. That's not really how you send the tourists, you know, onto 46th Street, you know. And, right, obviously the show didn't really do that, but right, it does fundamentally have the thing of like, this guy can't get out of his own way, right? Like, the main character can't get out of his own way. And, but in the Scorsese movie, it's more hostile even than that. You are like, I wish he'd stop fighting with everyone, but you're also just kind of like, do you see the personality disorder? - Yeah. - I also, I was thinking about inside Louis and Davis while rewatching this 'cause we shot that fairly recently. - We did. I do you like that movie? - I do. - The Coen Brothers movie, yes. - That is a movie where a guy fundamentally cannot get out of his own way and keeps fucking shit off. - And his talent. And his talent. - And his talent. - Yeah. - But they show that talent pretty early. - They do. - 40 minutes before we see this man hold a smartphone. - They show his flirting talent, Lin. - Right away. - Right away. - They show how good he is at hollering at people. - No, doesn't exist. - His philosophy. - Yeah. - Okay, but you're thinking about it inside Louis and Davis. - I think that movie, as maddening as it is to watch this guy fuck up, there's something in the way, not just the performance, but I think the way that film is written and the way the character is presented, where you feel bad for him against your better judgment. It's like the way the carry Mulligan character views him, which is like, I fucking hate that you have any hold on me, that you have such a sad, sad quality that you make people worry about you. And Jimmy Doyle is so high functioning that you're not worried about him ever. - No. - So then you're just like, just worried about anyone in his work. - Anyone near him. - Kill the fuck out and don't talk to anybody. I do need to call out Marika Brownlee, who works on the podcast. - One of our operations manager. - Yes. - A legend. - Saw the Broadway production three times. - Whoa. - Which is impressive given that it did not run for even one year. - Yes. - Right, like yeah. - No, no, we, yeah. - Yeah. - Referred to Jimmy Doyle as quote my husband. - Yeah, she loved Colton's performance. - Yes. - Tony and I made it. - Colton Ryan. - Very talented guy. - Yeah, I thought so, yeah. - But it is one of those things. Like Scorsese's main thought is the dynamite idea at the center of this movie, as he described it to Liza Manelli was, I grew up in New York City, seeing Hollywood make films about New York City, and those two realities couldn't have been more different. What was outside my window and what I saw on the screen, and I wanted to put the real New York inside the fake New York. And you're like, holy shit. That should be the greatest movie of all. You're telling me Martin Scorsese made that with De Niro and Liza Manelli at their peak. - At their peak? - Yes. - I mean, and he made it in between Taxi Driver and Raging Bowl. So he was at his, and Last Waltz is, you know, sprinkled in there too. Like, so isn't this good? - I, and, and guess what the title song is? - You've heard it. It's a good song. - We talked about on our fucking loser episode, Amy Heckerling's loser, about how that is a movie where it's spawning teenage dirtbag by Weedis is the weird example of a song so largely outshadowing the movie that it came from. I don't know if we failed to mention in that to speak New York, New York, New York. - At its best, this movie exists as a seed for that song to exist. - A song that it's impossible to, like, consider had to be created. A song that feels like it was placed on this earth like water. - And you know the story that, like, out of spite. It's a spite song. - It's a spite song. - Because they, so, and Kendra's told this story many times, I'm not telling tales out of school. Kendra, Neb, Fred and John play the songs they've written for the movie, and the world goes round, happy endings, banger, banger, banger, and they wrote another song called New York, New York. That was like given to them. It had to be called New York, New York. They were threatened with legal action from the "On the Town" team. And so it's actually called theme for New York. - Yes, New York, New York, yes. - And they play it, and De Niro doesn't like it. And again, it's the only one Seiro cares about because it's the one his character supposedly wrote. - Right, so he's like, not good enough. - Does this song, like, do we know this song? Like does it exist? - No, and by the way, John's like, I don't even remember the live song. - But he was sort of like, they basically left the room, Marty very apologetically asking them to try again on the theme, and then they like, fucking actor telling us how to write a song. And they banged out New York, New York in 45 minutes. And he's just like fine. He's like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. - That thing is, it's just the first four notes of the melody of the song. - Right. - Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. - It's just him playing the first four notes until he starts the melody. - I think they do both. - I think it's rude that they do that. - I will say. - Why? - I think they should play lises when they win and Frank's when they-- - I was under pressure. - Yes. - But that speaks to the cultural memory of-- - Of course, Frank's-- - He was just-- - Right. - Control of the song. - Yes. - Sort of-- - And if you ask, Fred and John, they're like, "We're very grateful that he recorded it and made it to hit." But like, he changed all the lyrics. - He did. - He real wrote it to the lyrics. - A number one day, and right, that's it. - He did it his way? - He did. - He just like seeks us. He just wanted to get some A1 in there, a little bit. - I think he's just top of the heap twice. - Yeah. - I mean, he's just top of the heap. - He's just kind of going, and that's the classic. - But look, I mean, it's not true. We've talked about Snotchern. We even watched Ocean's Eleven. - We did. - The Snotchreversion, which is a bit of a snooze. - We had a great half of it. - Yes. - Sleepiest movie ever. - You know, he's one of those guys, we were like, "Well, this guy's sort of an asshole." But then he was like, "Oh, he's kind of the fucking best Jesus Christ." - He's so good at this. Like, you know, he can't really deny it. - But I love Liza's version. - Oh, it's incredible. - It's even more, right. - I mean, I defend this movie, and I've seen it three times now. - Okay. - And-- - Congratulations. - The first, thank you very much. I appreciate that. The first 90 minutes, I'm like, "I like this movie, am I sure I like this movie?" And then the last hour just pays off so great for me. - The last hour is the reason it's a movie. - It's the reason it's a movie. - And by the way, they shot that first. - Yes. - I think they were a little more together. They were shooting the musical sequence. Vincent Monelli is visiting his daughter on set. And like, you're fucking Marty's. Like, I've never been so happy in my life. - Right, and I'm sure Marty also was like, "I want to impress my like icon that I worship." Like, and I'm right. And also-- - Yeah. - And then they just forgot to write the part where they fall in love. So they fump for their way there for fucking hours. - In a super-perfect way. - The fact that the first 90 minutes are such a slog makes the last hour even more like redemptive. - But I don't think the movie couldn't be more functional up until that point and still work. - But I find amazing is that they cut, you know, turning like a four-hour version. Sniffing and being like, it's perfect. - Yeah. (laughing) - And what I find amazing is that what they cut for theatrical release was happy ending. - This is what's crazy, man. - I was like, there's the whole verse third. - Yes. - Like, start with the audition. Like, literally make a meet cute at the audition. He's gotta go to the audition. - Yes. - And begrudgingly accompanies him there and they fall in love because of their talent. - It is amazing. - That's something. - How much of this long movie is Jimmy fucking up a meeting? There's like eight different scenes that's like, "Let's meet with this guy." And Jimmy's just being a pig. - You won't believe how much he's gonna fuck this up. - They're, they're, you know, like, I think we could've lost like three of these meetings. - Yes. - Then was asking me about the differences, right? - Yes. - It was released, it was released around two and a half hours. - Yes, yeah. - It was released right after Star Wars and they were panicking and they were like, you gotta just cleave 30, 40 minutes off of this thing. So they release it a little over two. And the two, it's basically the only difference are two sequences. Happy endings, which is like, the reason the movie is so gorgeous. - It exists to get to happy endings and her singing New York, New York. That's why you make this movie. And to cut one of those two things out is absurd. And then the whole extended sequence at the very red night club where they kick him out in the tunnel of the light bulbs and everything, which I would argue, if you're going to include one sequence of Jimmy fucking up a deal, that's the one to keep. They cut out two of the best things in the movie, which are both like 15 minutes long. And they just, - Right, 'cause they were like, it's throwing the movie down. - Yes, which sure, but as you're saying, right, the slowness had actually already happened. But no, they released it at 155 Griff, then they cut it to 135. - That's what the European cut, which is certain it's now, 'cause the 155 cut was only out there very briefly. - Right, it was thrown away when the thing basically immediately bombed. - That had to fight scene, but it didn't have happy ends. - Right. - And then they re-release it in 1981. I guess sort of post-raging bull of like, okay, okay. Marty and Bob. be like did a good one again. So can we redeem this one a little bit and, you know, by the 80s or what people are sort of like, I get what you were going for becomes the kind of thing. Happy endings for a second though, because that last sequence is such a perfect dream ballet in the style of Vincent Manelli's great movies, an American in Paris. That fucking dream ballet is the reason the movie exists. It's why that movie won Best Picture. Yeah, the bandwagon where like they put on their quote unquote show. And it's eight musical numbers. I have nothing to do with each other. But then there's the incredible like basis for Michael Jackson's smooth criminal like that. Unbelievable detective sequence. That is the most stunning thing you will ever see in your life. And is also what's amazing about those dream ballazes. They're the movie in musical miniature. And what's incredible about the happy ending sequence is it is an incredible movie in miniature for a movie that doesn't exist. Exactly. It's because that's not what we've seen advertised. Yes. It's a more interesting movie. Oh my god. If if De Niro and her had met cute at a movie theater, like the beginning of happy end, like I watch anything that happy ending is alluded to. Something you know, it costs an incredible amount of money to make it the happy ending sequence. And it is you're right. Like it was one of the first things to do. Yeah. If you're listening in a home, you didn't own a movie. Just start the movie at whatever that time. Can we get them the time code to just started at the musical sequence? There's the huge issue. Of course, that this movie is not really streamable. I just don't have to watch it this about three and a half hours ago when I sat down to watch this movie that it's just nowhere. It's nowhere to be found. I had to watch some weird bootleg Russian streaming version. And I was very unclear of even what version I was watching. I had a special edition blu-ray that I had never watched, but I bought it back when I was active. I you know, like you're a system being like, probably he's got a disc great question eight on fucking iTunes. Like, yeah. And I then you have that. That blu-ray came out like 15 plus years ago. It's out of print. It just got re-issued on 4k, which came out like, I have that to it. Does that have his video introduction? It does. He's basically like, we were trying something. Yes. Sorry. We were trying something. Sorry. [Music] I mean, that's absolutely how I was introduced to this movie was in like documentaries about Scorsese or the history of film or TV specials or like biographies or whatever. I just remember watching some TV doc thing where they go like, and then of course in 1977 came New York New York. And I don't know if it was anything about Scorsese, De Niro or Manelli, but just all three of them in talking heads going like, we were trying something and people got angry because it also has become part of the narrative of we gave the filmmakers too much power. Uh-huh. That was a mistake. Yes. So it's like in the heavens gate. It's all happened very much. Right, sorcerer. Like, those movies of like, okay, New Hollywood's over. Guys, time for you all to have some guardrails. I can tell you, I'm going to open the dossier here that Martin Scorsese one day opened the Hollywood reporter. I guess after he's made taxi driver. No, no, no. Before he's made taxi driver. But he's made mean streets. And I guess he's maybe made Alice doesn't live here anymore. Just reads that Irvin Winkler, the Hollywood mega producer, like, you know, big name wants to make a movie about like the big band era called New York, New York. And he's just like, I want to do that. I like, I love big band music. I grew up with it. I loved, you know, jazz and like, my parents were obsessed with Django Reinhardt and Stephanie Grapelli or whatever. And like, I, my parents, like, you know, like, pictures of my family members, like in World War II uniforms, like, having come, right, like, this is all in the soup for me. And I fucking love old Hollywood musicals. Like, I love in Sentai Manelli. Like, I love all this shit. It's what's awesome is he basically, despite being the King of New Hollywood, right? Really? Big nerd. No, but beyond that, he's also like, I got to Hollywood too late. I grew up wanting to make a big old artificial Hollywood show movie. And I got here and I got stuck being the fucking figurehead of the Lousy New Hollywood moment. Like, it's so fun to think about that now when we all idolize what he represented. Well, but that's like what is what's happening right now with Christopher Nolan, where he's like stroking his chin, being like Crimson Tide is one of the great films of all time. And I'm like, I agree with you, Chris. But clearly, you just wish it was the 90s. Like, you know, it's my, and I love the movies you're making right now. But he's like, that was a good era. Right. You know, Scorsese shows up in the 70s. Yes. He's like, I wish it was the 40s. He says, the movie he's thinking about, the man I love, which is like a Raul Walsh 40s film noir, which has all these Gershwin songs in it. Roadhouse, which is like a Richard Widmark movie. And then obviously, the Minelli Technicolor film. It's like a Valentine to Holly, what is his idea? It is so funny to hear him say that in these interviews. This movie is a Valentine to nobody. Like, I mean, that's, I mean, I guess it's like, like, stuff like happy endings. Yeah. A little bit, but mostly it reminds me of that one line in Xanadu and don't come from me. Xanadu lovers. They're out there with the roller skates. It's like the 40s meet the 80s. And it's like, I don't think those were meant to meet my guy. Like, I don't think they're actually too late tasted. Don't taste great together. And that's Xanadu. But like, they say it with such pride in the text of Xanadu. And that's sort of what happens here is like, I'll do my, that my kind of thing, but I'll use old school Hollywood sets. And I'll use the daughter of Judy Garland star of these Minelli movies as like a proxy for that era. And frankly, when you have like, De Niro, like making shit up on an old set with Eliza Minelli there, the Dex stacked against De Niro. Like, he's the one who looks like he's in the wrong movie. He does. Yeah. He's, he's the weirdest fit for this movie. Yeah. It doesn't really work as, as, as much as he had spent like this early part of his career, I feel like kind of being able to do anything. Well, it's like sandwiched in between these two guys together creating two of the greatest performances in the history of cinema. The leading man roles that will be studied by everyone forever. And that go against all the roles of the kind of character you want to place at the center of the movie. A character that no one would root for all of that. And this is the one where they just clearly think they're untouchable. And it is bizarre because watching these early films, we just keep being like, God, De Niro was so fucking hot. He was so handsome. He's so charming. Sure. It's hard to like place yourself back in that head space where you were like, he was like exciting and dangerous and full of life, you know? And so like, we were saying in the taxi driver episode, you're like, you kind of see it at moments. You kind of see why civil shepherd is tricked by him. Yeah. You kind of see how Rupert Pumpkin could maybe get a good five minutes together. He says like 20 words and Godfather too. And you're like, that's fucking young, Brando. Absolutely. But there he is. The musler. Fasting thing about this movie to me. He's the Rizzler. He is the Rizzler. He's on the original Rizzler. Don Rizzler. Can someone please make a poster in your own ears? Don Rizzler. Yes. Right. Or put the Rizzler in his outfit. Yes. Anyway, he's great. Also at Grandpa Coloss. No, I was going to say the fact that this movie is developed basically concurrently with taxi driver. And Scorsese even said that he thought he was going to make this first and that because taxi driver was lower budget, suddenly the money came together quickly. I think after De Niro's Oscar win. And that got fast tracked. Can you imagine the reality in which the order of these two films is flipped? Because if he makes this before taxi driver, there are rails. There's no way they let him go or just drive or even happen. Or does it happen the way it did? Just fuck it up so badly that no one ever write. Do you like the film? Some Martin Scorsese? I am a big fan of the film. Major admirer. And you like you like taxi driver say. Yes. I'm a fan of all or whatever. I celebrate his entire catalog. Well, well, yes, as we sort of set his pitch here is like it look like a film from the film, right? But it will have the sets will be fake, but we'll approach the characters in the foreground like a documentary will combine the two techniques. So we're kind of like, you know, we're bringing in like Italian near realism into like a, you know, phony looking Hollywood movie, brilliant, right? and I can imagine the producers being like, yeah, yeah, that'll work. Okay. I mean, sure. And that's going to be expensive, huh? And he's like, yeah, it's going to be expensive. He's like, okay. Well, show me Robert De Nuremberg and Liza Minnelli, though they're famous. That's good, right? And she can sing. And he's learned, he's method. So he'll learn the saxophone or whatever. Those two stars on paper, you go, it has to work. You have the two people who most embody the two sides of what you're trying to do. And have to wait. Let him. Do you remember what in peanut butter baby? I felt for five minutes that that was working. I remember when it kicked off and they had like the video where they were, I was like, yeah, this is all right. And then like, they are the ones that I want five minutes later, you're like, huh, it's kind of fucked up. That is one of those things that I don't remember. No, like generally, like you sing. And I'm like, right, of course, they did that. But it's just gone. But it's a similar mindset of like, they're just so different. Yes. Yes. But everyone loves both of them. So, right. It's nice that our generation had a Rob Lowe sings with snow white, you know, that growing up as Oscar nerds, you're like, oh, and the worst stuff happened before I got money. We had crash dance. Yeah, Seth McFarlane singing, we saw your booth. Yeah, remember that. That was quite an opener. How do you feel about him singing him up? It's bad. Okay, bad. Someone on the Reddit today was saying, David's going to make fun of this and Griffin's going to argue. It's a great idea. I just think it's weird. But I mean, clearly he loves the Muppets. I assume that's why he's doing it. So it's an omnis. He's got a beautiful singing voice. Seth McFarlane is releasing like a Muppets album, like where he sings like Muppets standards, I guess. Because you know, he does like old books. He does like Sinatra, right? Right? He's got a good creator family guy and he's a booblay. He's a bit of a booblay. But I just like, I don't, I've never wanted to hear the songs of the Muppets. I released a book of tweets. I can't bash anyone's side projects. You do what sounds good at the time. I don't know. I was releasing a book of tweets back. That is true. That was the thing to do. Squarespace even beyond the like 40s means the 80s thing was like, I'm, this film is going to catalog like these two characters across decades. I want the style of the movie to evolve. He had that no shit. There'll be a 40s movie. Then there'll be a 50s movie. Insane. We're going to study the styles of how sets were built, how makeup was done, camera movements and whatever and and do all of that. And then the whole idea of like, how do you place a documentary inside of this is very strange because he would cite Italian neorealism. But this is not what neorealist films mean. No, no, this is not what they feel like at all. Like that's them, no, yeah. I would argue this feels a lot like an attempt at doing Casavetes, who was obviously one of his actors. Yeah. Sure. But Casavetes, it's always the, the fallacy that his movies were improvised. When in fact, there was a lot of improv, kind of Mike Lee style used in the development. Right. And then the script really really locked down. Yes. Instead, Marty, as you say, makes such a job before this because the funding comes fear quickly wins the Palm door at the Cannes Film Festival. And so he says he crashes into this movie with just like the biggest ego. There's a script by Earl Mac rock, route, route, rock. The guy who eventually wrote a buckaroo bonsai, right. Just the wildest two films for one person to have written. Right. They hate the script. Obviously, Marty Martin, who is a Marty collaborator comes in and works on it later. But the true answer is that there's no script. There's just not five different people work on it. Five different people work on scripts. Yes. That Marty and Danero keep going like, not good enough. I think about that all the time. That's why I need to do a Jagger. I love that he had to defend that. He also talks about a few Jagger about that. No, what do you say? It's like, well, you know, you want things to be at a certain level. Good. I love, I love they didn't deny it. Ten toes down. No funny. He also says during that bit that Mick Jagger also at one point went Diet Coke and someone just like brought one to his hand. He's like, it's just another plane of existence. Yes. Yes. Yes. Shine a light coming to this miniseries. We're going to do something. We want to talk to the Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger. This is good excuse to talk about Mick Jagger. But my favorite leads for you guys out there. Yeah. I mean, that's some real patreon father went to like a stones gig when they were brand new. This is a story he used to tell liked it when they're whatever, when they're nobody's snuck into like what did the green room like to try and like hang out with them. And Mick Jagger just went, fuck off. And he was like, okay, so it was always he was always on that. So month before the film was going to shoot Earl Mac Rock. Rouch. Sorry. I think it's Rouch. Yeah. It's like I quit. I got to do other shit. I can't deal with this anymore. So I got a bonsai call in my name. Yeah. So then Marty says Bobby and I had some ideas about improvisation. And we felt like we'd known Liza for about a year and deadly words. Maybe she'd be comfortable doing it. Marty comes into basically structure the scenes, I guess. But he said, Marty Martin says everyone was just trying to improve it by improvisation all the time. The film never really had an ending. We came up with like a dozen endings and never like found one that worked. Or when you know, it winkler helps Jay Cox, who's a big Marty collaborator helps. Helps. Can I interject for one second with a live finale story? Please, please. Again, I'm also still with us. A lot of these people are still with us. Liza still with us. And again, I was reading her autobiography on the way down here that the salient chapters. And you have to understand how much Liza was not an improviser. Like she, there's an amazing video. I'm sure it's YouTubeable of Kendra and Ab singing their own songs. It was like a songwriters on songwriting series that had like eight people and everyone realized no one cares about songwriters singing their own stuff. But it's Fred singing like some of Liza's standards. Liza with a Z ring them bells. And when you watch it, you'll be like, holy shit. Fred ebbs every mannerism or Liza's mannerisms. Like he taught her how to sing. He taught her how to use her hands. Like they were really like instrumental in helping her find her own persona distinct from her mother, which was a huge shadow. It's amazing to watch Fred. I perform because you're just watching like a man performing as Liza Manelli, but it was him first. I tell you that story to like imagine then being thrown into to a situation where it's just like we're going to make it up when like she has been so like she is a like an eight shows a week performer. Yeah, she's like a part. You're going to work it out rigorously until it's perfect. Yeah. Working with Bob Fossy like these people we heard like theater people fucking rehearse. And all that to say, I think she holds her own beautifully. She's extremely good in the movie because she's a good actor because I think she's such a sympathetic actor. Yeah. That because she's under siege in this movie, you're just so weird. The only strike against her is that like the character Francine would ever fall for this guy's bullshit and you wouldn't really buy it. You never really has to happen because the movie has to happen. I mean, you sang that that when they ran the first scene and she said no, and they were like, you can't just shut them down immediately. So the scene keeps going. It's like, no, but she had the right improv instinct, which is play it real, play to the top of your intelligence. I know you want to guess and but maybe the way the scene moves forward is you reject him and the guy has to get more creative. Exactly. And instead the guy is just grabbing her next camera. Now an issue also that they have according to Martin is Liza had a commitment to go to Vegas for something. I want to assume to do a big old show. And so they just have to start shooting. They don't have a script like what if they never figured it out, but they're like, well, we got to start. De Niro, famous Lee, the worst interview of all time. God bless him. He's basically like, I practice really hard like on the tenor sex. That is his take away from this film. That's great. He's like, I didn't want to look like an idiot. And so I really learned that shit. And I think I did a good job on the tenor sex. Every time he picks up the sacks, I was blown away at how much he sells it. Claren's fucking Clemens. And he looks like he's doing it. It's it's really, really good. I want to just throw out a Julia Cameron, who was where says his wife at the time, did a lot of writing work on this. She gets a special call out giant special thanks to Julia Cameron stand-alone credit card at the end of the movie. Just a lot of heavy size for me, even the backstory on all of this. A lot of heavy size. She gave birth to their daughter, Damanica, in 1976. The way in alum go West. Absolutely. And what was the mascot? What's the mascot of the West? The Cardinals. The Cardinals go Cardinals. I don't know. I visited the campus once. It seemed really nice. When I was a pre-fresh, the reason I went to West is because I snuck into a Hitchcock class. And she was a TA class. I snuck into it. She was graduating the year as a pre-fresh. Oh, well, that is cool. I know as well as Damanica Scorsese in a discussion of Bunny Lake is missing. And I want to go here. Michael Bay. Michael Bay. Michael Bay. Their friend of the show Katie Rich went to went to Wesleyan. I thought you're about to say friend of the show Michael Bay. Friend of the show Michael Bay. Call us. Yes. Friends to show race and touring Jordan fish. That's a segment that could go on far too wrong. Sure. Big West film. But yeah, but basically, like she's the way Marty puts it. I've read in it is like he's like, I know she's she gives birth to my daughter. And I know we're getting divorced. I know I'm like not going to be present for this kid. Like this is all happening in his head. And it's so in the movie. So in the movie. Right. Like it's so like, you know, he's just like, I'm a piece of shit. Like I'm abandoning a child, right? You know, like it's so obviously in the movie. And it's funny because in like the Mr. Scorsese doc that they did recently, like Damanica is there. And she's like, we figured it out. We figured it out. But like I had to basically be a grownup, you know, I mean, like, and he as did he essentially like we figured it out. It's so good because everyone's like, you know, happy to be candid at that point. But by the time they did that, I just I think it is sometimes overdiscussed the Catholic guilt and Scorsese's work because that's a very obvious read. I think what it's kind of equally present is him just kind of constantly trying to study why the fuck are men wired this way? And for the first half of his career, he's studying that while he's making all of the mistakes, he's doing them in real time, and he's kind of putting himself on the slab and being like, the fuck is it with our brains? You know, not to be like a binary about it. - Yeah, and honestly to his credit, the moment, the pregnancy story line starts, you're like, okay, now we're in a movie. - Yeah, there's something that's happening. It's not just a non courtship of negging people in this while they like to or. - Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, I can tell he's not gonna be father of the year if he's even gonna stick around to the, like, there's something happening. And something interesting is suddenly happening with De Niro's character, because he's saying, yeah, I'll be there, maybe have the bit. Like, there's something going on. - That's where the movie really starts. And I remember seeing this at the Metrograph, maybe 10 years ago, and it's playing to a lot of silence. You know, and there's music in the movie, but there's not even a lot of musical numbers up until that point. There's like two or three in the first 90 minutes. And you get to that scene in the delivery room after the character is just like, kind of hit his bottom. And the audience starts gasping at the shit he's saying. And for the first time, you're like, he's bad in a way that's dramatically interesting. - Yes, it does. - It's no longer just frustrating. - You've got your avoiding making eye contact with all the three. - Totally. And I think that guy that they depict for the first half of the movie is a real guy. He's a very specific guy. He's well observed. He's just a guy you run away from. You don't want to spend time with him. He's not shitty in a compelling way, which is what these two guys are usually really good at figuring out how to put on screen. (upbeat music) One more thing from why is that I do think it's interesting. She said, my singing performance is very different than anything I've done before because I studied the way big band singers sang, even how they held their hands. You didn't go out as the star. You went out as part of the arrangement. And I went so overboard that I almost backed up too much. And I guess wasn't being kind of like dominant enough. I don't know what she sort of means by that. But she said she'd studied it all as a kid. And it was very fun to like tailor herself to like big band era singing. I don't know what your take is on that way. - Well, let me back up even just a step before that, which is the other tragedy of, this is Corsese's only quote unquote musical, is it's not even like a musical musical. - Not real. - Like the musical. - All diagetic, except the musical number. Even the musical number at the end, it's her in a musical or in a movie musical. And when you think of the movies, he reveres. And the way they go from speech to song. Like think about like, I got rhythm and an American in Paris. And you got the little kids going, I got rhythm. I got. It's so fucking delightful. The way they manage that leap that we take for granted when we go to the theater, but it's really hard to do in a movie of like going from, hey, how you doing today to, you know. - So it is. - I need six eggs, beauty to be honest. - I need six eggs. She needs to cut that woman's eggs as someone who feeds his sons essentially six eggs a day. I understand her energy in that song. It is the number, it is the barrier to entry for some people, right? With musicals that they just are like, I don't buy it when they start singing. Even if it's on Broadway or whatever. Like it does feel like the hardest thing to get people over. I know what it is. - Imagine that same opening sequence which is genuinely stunning. Like it is Scorsese flexing on us. Like hundreds and hundreds of people. And it's like victory day. And then there's the arrow pointing at De Niro in the crowd and so incredible. Imagine they'd gone inside that ballroom. And De Niro was playing sax and singing a song. Suddenly, I love this guy. Even if he's a total piece of shit. - You pulled him up and he was playing his song. - He would perform it. Like if you just had the, just the wherewithal to like lean all the way in and make a fucking musical. - It is what I find most fascinating about this film. There's the sort of anti-musical that people attempt, a couple times a decade. That is, well, people have this barrier to entry, what you're talking about, David. They just think it's corny or it strains cajulia. They can't buy in at that point. So can you make a musical where it doesn't feel like a musical and it doesn't have the tone of a musical. Restructurally, it's like this. And I feel like those are often made by people who secretly hate musicals. - There's a bit of a possibility to this. - The number one. - Or they love it and they're ashamed. - Yes. I don't feel that he's ashamed here. It feels like he's trying so hard to prove a different point. Even though he loves this so unabashedly, where you're just like, you wish someone could have grabbed him and gone like, Marty, if these dialogue scenes are 90 seconds and you have five more numbers that actually play out in full and you go off in the first 90 minutes, people might enjoy watching this. - Liza, just to flesh up behind the scenes drama, she is of course married to Jack Haley, Jr. the son of Jack Haley, the 10 man who starred in the Wizard of Oz with her mother, Judy Garland, which is already crazy. And she's having an affair with Mikhail Bershnikov who might be the hottest person alive like right then. I feel like you've been making this case a couple of times for years. - He is unbelievable. And like, you were at the critic circle where he presented, right? You know, he presented at the New York film critic circle last year and he's, I mean, how old is he now? Like in his late 70s or whatever, you know? And you're still just kind of like, I mean, he's 78. You're still just kind of like, "God, this is like the coolest fucking guy in the world." Like this guy is really hot and really hot. - I'm old enough to remember his arc on "Sex in the City" where you're like, "Is that Bershnikov?" And then he leaps across a pile of garbage and like, "Oh my God, he's the hottest old man alive." - He was the hottest and with the scarves. - Yeah. - That show did him dirty, in my opinion. - Absolutely. - So she's already in a dalliance with him. And then of course, Scorsese and Liza began a romantic dalliance. And then of course. - Passionate, talented Italian. - Yeah. - I mean, he's magnetic. And of course, then he also directs her in the act which was a sort of failed show. - I really want to discuss this. - Yes. - Because this is not in the doc at all. - Right. - They just say, we're sticking to the movies. - It's a Kendra and Ab. - It's a Kendra and Ab show. - In 70s. - That they haven't inherited. Like Hamlish was gonna do it, then didn't want to do it. - Right. - And it was initially called Shine It On. - Yeah. - Something like that. And again, like, you have to understand, Kendra and Ab are like her theater parents. Like they truly take care of her. And there's a very, I'm holding my copy of colored lights, which is Kendra and Ab's sort of oral history of their own stuff. Like they did a book where they just talk about their own things and there's a very sweet quote where Fred says something to the effect of, she was very adamant that Scorsese could do. Anything and he had to direct the show, even though he had never been near theater in his life. - Yeah. - But the sweet thing he says is like, I think she kind of figured we could get her out of any jam. Which is like, you know, and I think she knew she was on a subconscious level. She was in a emotional mess, a drug fueled mess with him that needed detangling. So she brings him along for this. And Fred tells the stories. He literally would go to rehearsals, film it and go home and edit it to try to figure out how to direct. Like theater, which is, why? - It's not how you're supposed to do it. - And Kendra goes to great pains in the book to say like, listen, Marty was a wonderful guy. He was not malevolent. They were just really bad into drugs. And I think that was his way to try to get his head around how deep in over. And he was like, let me do the one thing I do know how to do. And maybe that will give me a clue on how to do this. And they tell this story in the book. I recommend the book. I'll tell you how to draw a bookshop. And also we recommend the drawing bookshop. A wonderful instance. - Yes, thank you. Where I live. And I live upstairs like the fan of. But they tell the story about like them getting to rehearsal. Again, this is like Broadway rehearsal at like two in the afternoon. And they say that they were in this horrible wreck. And our neck hurts. And the more they ask about the wreck, the more the story starts to fall apart. And it's just sort of like, nope. Drugs and tiredness got them. They're late. And she was very embarrassed that she was sort of in it so deep. And like it's very heartbreaking. And in her book, she says she's the one who had to fire him basically because she's the one who insisted on him. And then a Gower champion kind of came in and steered it towards a show, like being an actual show. The thing Kendra and I were just so embarrassed because it was like not working on fundamental. Like, this isn't even like I have a sheen of professionality 'cause no director has touched this yet. And then, you know, steers are towards her first, her third Tony win. She unbelievably wins a Tony, yes, for it, despite it largely being forgotten and sort of a flop, right? I do want to note that it's ticket prices were $25, which at the time was an all-time high. And now that would be considered quite cheap for Broadway. I don't know if you guys know that. But yeah, it was a bomb or whatever. But it's just so crazy to think that in the middle of all this Marty tried and failed to direct a Broadway show, which is hard to do. Like directing a Broadway show is not something you can phone in, correct? Correct. Now, if it is something you can phone in, I'm available. I'll do it. Dave, it's ready to phone shit in. If it's that I show up to the theater and I'm like, everything looks great, you guys are beautiful. When I get home, Liza tells a story that apparently on the first day, Marty comes in and says, "Where is my dressing room?" Oh, sure. We don't have a lot of those back here. That's not how it works. Director's don't get a dressing room. They just hang out in the stage of Andrew's office. There's no space. Right. You know how when you're making a movie, your dressing room has to be in a special truck, right? Do you see any space for trucks in this little building? That's how much he didn't know, but what he didn't know. Yeah, I mean, because I don't, he loves musicals, but I feel like he loves movie musicals. He doesn't really talk about despite being a New York boy, being a New York theater boy. No. And this way that he's got, like, Liza, right, white hot Liza. Can we just break down the sort of where Liza's at for a moment? And it's not like he missed, well, he does misuser in that he tried to make her improvise an entire movie, which doesn't seem like the right, but she's still good in the movie, but it does feel like he didn't know what he had on his hand. And then when it comes to the actual musical, ask musical that finally starts, uh, you're like taking a win. Yeah, it's extraordinary. He's channeling her dad. Yeah. She's channeling her mom. Yeah. In a way that feels like positive and cathartic, not in a, like, doesn't feel ghoulish or creepy. Yeah, it just feels like, yeah, she's stepping into these shoes and they fit just fine. Um, and she's extraordinary in those sequences. I mean, like she'd grown up in the studio system. And that's when they're at their best, like both of them are at their bed, like his directing is just peak. And she gets to do what she does, which is sing like her life. Yes. Like she's falling apart. Like, you can't mention that note any longer than that. Oh, you did. She's also such a good example of the, like, good singing is storytelling kind of thing where you're like, she is conveying things to you with every inflection, with every gesture. It's not just about hitting notes. Uh, but the thing that's so fascinating about her to me is she is like a razzle dazzle star in the 70s at a moment where Hollywood is kind of rejecting razzle dazzle. And they're like, razzle dazzle is for TV. That is for variety shows. Movies don't have space for this anymore. People like Streisand tone down the razzle dazzle when they get to the 70s. And they're like, I make comedies now. I make romantic dramas. Yeah. I play human beings. I play, right. And then I'll do concerts, but like, you've got to split these things up. Well, she had the advantage of coming into the movie business with like the one director who came from theater, Miss Mr. Old Bobby Fawsey, who also, but also knew how to cut a 70s movie, right? He's both of it. Yeah. It's what I would end. Such a unique star is that she is the center of a musical that somehow figured out how to serve both sides. It's what's funny about what Marty's trying to do where it's like, you know, Fawsey kind of already did that, but like, and it's like, it's not as artificial, but like, have very basically already did what you're thinking of, which is sort of like a more real feeling musical film. Like, you know, like, you know, but also was like a little unreplicatable. Yeah. It was so specific to the structure of that show itself. And the text of that show, her other films, if you want me to bring them up, Griff, are lucky lady, which is the Stanley Donah movie with Gene Hackman and Bert Reynolds. That's like a prohibition like comedy. I've never seen it. It's a famous bomb. Like, I don't know if you've seen it. Lynn, I mean, you know, and I didn't have the DVD of that one. No. And then a matter of time, which is the movie that her dad directs that has Kandar and Ebb songs and like old Gershwin songs, she plays herself in silent movie as well. Well, yeah, but I'm forgetting the cameo. So I'm saying like, you know, that where she's playing like an Italian like Duchess or whatever, I've never seen it either. Yeah. Her dad's very old when he's making it. And, you know, I think it might be his last movie or close to it. So it's not like post-caparate. She hasn't really had hits. No, but she's famous. Yeah. Yeah. And she's done with the fact that she's two strikes in when. Yeah. She needs another win. And this is a miss. And then she doesn't do anything for four years. And then she does, I mean, obviously she just, she doesn't do any more movies. She does other stuff. But then she has Arthur in the 80s, which I feel like does give her a bit of a new lease. Arthur's four years later is a huge hit. Yes. But then the next credit after that is Muppet Sigmund had cameo as herself three years later. Then three years after that, she does rent a cop. Yeah. Then the year after that, she does Arthur two on the rocks. I mean, she mostly is a Broadway. Totally. Right. And this kind of disabused her on movies a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And certainly there's, I've never seen stepping out, which is kind of like the late in life lies a legacy. Cool. It has been Broadway performer gives up tap lessons to a group of misfits. The 90s meet the 50s in that one. A little bit. A little bit. She replaces Gwen Verdon in Chicago on Broadway. No, this, I mean, that's an incredible story, which deserves like a second, which is that Gwen Verdon, basically the queen, the queen. She's with Bobby Fossy, serial flander, serial drug taker. But she's like, we're doing Chicago. She's a bit of a Jimmy Doyle except. She's a Jimmy Doyle. It's very talented. I believe maybe one of the most talented people a lot. And and she's like, we're doing this. It's double act like her and she to Rivera. She inhales like some confetti on state like as a freak accident where she inhales some confetti in the set like it damage seriously damages her lungs. Eliza, who basically was like my theater parents, Archander, Ebb and Fossy are like, she basically says, can I go in? Like, can I just go in and and she even confesses in her autobiography. I knew they'd make a movie this someday. I thought if I went in, they might see me for the movie version. Some point down the line. She didn't know it was going to take 30 years. But she says, and I don't want to disrespect Gwen. So they don't even put her name on the marquee. She goes in as basically like the most famous swing performer. It was like a month, right? Like it was like a week to learn it. She did it for five weeks. Right. And it was just like this open secret like, go. Eliza's in for Chicago right now. And they and they would surprise people every because it's for social media too. So they would say like tonight, the role of, you know, Roxy and we'll and you'd feel the audience will be played by Liza Minnelli. What? It is very cool because it was Jerry Orbach, right? As well. Yeah, Jerry Orbach King, Peter Rivera. And then she did, you must know a little bit about I just and then we can, you know, but the the ring, right? That's the candor, everything. They're with you reunites, with cheetah Rivera. And it's about they own like a roller skating ring. Yeah. And it's like dilapidated. Do you know about this stuff? Of course. It was a starlet express could fly right in 80s, somewhat forgotten. Like have they ever done this one at on course? Yeah. But you know what? Again, like some of these things are just seeds for your favorite thing. Just like this movie is a seed for New York, New York, the greatest New York song of all time. There's a song by Candor Nebb and they're called a quiet thing that I think is the best Candor Nebb song of all time. It was we read it at the vows for my wedding. Like it is, it is one of the most beautiful songs you'll ever hear and Liza sings it. Happiness comes in on tiptoe. It's quiet thing. It's great song. Actually, we put that in New York, New York too. It's again, it became like an orphan show for all the great Candor Nebb songs that didn't have a prominent home. Huh, Liza. I think you're right, Clifford. Like it does sort of it's like it tops her being in movies, but it does. I think this experience, she was just sort of like maybe that's not my primary medium and things like Arthur are like a much lighter lift for her, where it's like, oh, you want me to be like the fun gal next to Dudley Moore. I don't have to be like singing my heart out. I don't need to be the big open wound of the movie. I also, I think you sang Sims like Marty comes in with this pitch and Hollywood's like, that sounds incredible. The other part of it is I think the movie musical in the 1970s, the studio probably felt about it the way they feel about the superhero movie now, where the public keeps being like, we're maybe over this and they're like, how do we get you back? This was kind of our bread and butter. And if something like cabaret works, they're like Travis Bickle with the musical you guys. No, but they're like cabaret works and they're like, okay, so you do so like them sometimes. How do we replicate this? Yeah, what is the element that makes it work? This is what we're best at. I'm, you know, we can clear and also done the shoot horses, don't they, which is not a musical, but has again that kind of like we're mixing realism with movie mania. You know, like, can we do this in a more structured way? They shoot the film at MGM. Old Hollywood master, bars 11, does the sets. He had done sound of music, right? He'd done Scarlett Empress the Von Stemberg movie. You know, like, he's like to Marty, like a king, like West Side Story. So he's like, I want to recreate the mythical city, you know, the high curbs and like, you know, what else does he want to, you know, like everything's just going to look a little fantastic. They they had Georgia Armani. Oh, no, right. The shoulder pacts and the wide ties Georgia Armani saw this movie and inspired him to make his clothes. Yeah, seeds. Laszlo Kovac shoots it. Obviously, he shoots last waltz with Scorsese. At the same time, this is the only time that they work together movies, those two movies unbelievable. Yes, gorgeous movie. And you know, he moves the camera a lot because he's Martin Scorsese. Obviously, he's always fucking. He walks Manelli and said, like, hold my fucking steady cam. But yes, obviously on every other Martin Scorsese movie before now, even Boxcar Bertha, he had done so much pre-production work on like storyboarding. However, shots going to work. Everything is laid out, even Alice doesn't live here anymore. or whatever, where it's like very simple. They are, they know exactly what they're doing. - And then on the genre that requires the most prep. - The most prep, and they throw it all out, they have no script, and they shot like a million feet of film or whatever, right? Like they just like, that mean, you know, and they went eight weeks over budget, 14 weeks for into 22 weeks. Winkler had never made a musical before. He didn't realize that they'd take a long time, so they madly under-scheduled. Martin Scorsese, in retrospect, I don't think we should have been given that free a hand. That's his quote. So even he's like, I need like some guardrail. - I think it is telling that this is the only time he's gone back and like reworked one of his movies. You know, he's very adamantly anti-directors cut, and he's like, A, try to fight for that the first time. But B, like when the movie's released, that's the movie that the culture forms a relationship with, and it is what it is. And stuff like Gangsta New York, where there was a lot of interference, but he's refused to ever go back partially because I think it's too raw and partially because he's just like, is what it is. And this is the one time where like three years later, he was like, guys, can I just try to explain myself a little bit? And it does feel like it's because he knows he shouldn't have gotten away with it. - There's one moment where he's shooting a scene with Bobby and Liza. It's gone to like nine o'clock at night. They're on the 22nd take. Everyone's exhausted. And the next day they have a day shoot or whatever. It's not like they can, you know, the problems are multiplying. Winkler says, we've done 22 takes. Do you think you're done? And Marty's like, I just, there's this tear coming out of Liza's eye. I think two or three more takes, I can really get it. Can I go for the tear? And Winkler's like, go for the tear. I'm like, that's what this movie is. They just keep thinking they're gonna get it. Happy endings, perfectly scheduled. Shot and 10 days. They did it right at the start. That worked great. And so of course they caught it out of the film. Right. Like, I'm just like in the world where they're watching this movie and go, oh, it's a mess. Audiences are going to hate this. I don't understand how they don't get to the conclusion of the movie starts one hour in. We're cutting all that shit out. Obviously we keep the big musical number. But I think it speaks to how allergic people were to old school song and dance at this moment in movies. As Lynn says, the original, the sort of assembly cut is four and a half hours long. They cut it down to about 245. You have three editors, not a good sign when you have three editors. Marshall Lucas has a supervising editor credit, which is separate from the three credited editors. George Lucas watches it as they're all friends and says, like, I think you'll make more money with a happy ending. What do you think? And Marty's like, that's not the movie we're making. And he's like, okay. I can imagine that they'd ended up together. That's the thing. It would actually worse. He's right about that. I also think you were saying, I think it was Marty Martin said, like, we never had an ending. So we didn't know what to improvise towards. Yes. I think the ending to this movie is correct. It is totally correct. The whole thing, I keep thinking about La La land with this movie, because La La land is like a high functioning version of the other seed. It, and La La land is, I know how we could make this work. You like the couple and you like them together. You like the couple, but you understand eventually, they're consumed by their artistic passions. It drives them apart. It's a shame that they end. They're basically like we both kind of figured it out. Bobby De Niro had explained jazz. And that would be great. To Conlet. To Liza Manelli. To explain music to you. The most he feels like he could do that at A, B, C, D. Yeah. Right. Like La La land. I feel like his chisel just kind of being like, can I just kind of make that a much more functional thing. I can't remember. Yes, and it does work. The first time I saw this was either right before La La land came out or right after La La Land came out. And it was just immediate the connection of like, oh, he clearly spent 20 years. Thinking to himself, could I make a version of the movie that works in New York, New York? Right. Yes. And the ending of New York, New York is, I think really the right ending. The plot of the film is that Jimmy Doyle, who is, I guess a veteran, although you're right. Is he? I question it. I question it. He knows. He knows guys. He knows guys. He knows guys. Yeah. He's decorated. We never see him in uniform. We see him strike out on like three other women first. And then he hones in on her because she looks lonely. And it's like he's more offended that she rejected him than anyone else because in his mind, he thinks he was taking pity on her and then he doubles down. So it's the worst start for a relationship possible. And she is. What's the opposite of a mute? Meet cute. Yeah. Shit. Yeah. Truly. The meat nasty. It's a meat nasty, but she's not into him. And there's a certain point where she starts laughing at like, this is egregious. Like it's getting absurd. How hard he's trying now. But there's no point where she's like, I don't know. It's kind of cute. Like she's playing it real. It's also the vibe of this entire movie, which is like the scene feels five minutes too long. It gets uncomfortable. It kind of gets somewhere where you're like, well, this is sort of authentically like difficult and nasty. And then you're just like, can we move along? Like, this movie is still happening. Does not have that many scenes. No, all the scenes are so long. The scenes are 10 to 15 minutes long. My wife was just like, what is this movie about? And I was like, I don't know. The worst guy. He's not nice. It's about. He's not nice. Uh, so they get in a cab and like they go to an audition together and they kind of get put together as a boy girl act because they're both talented at the same time together. And I guess they sort of artistically vibe, but I feel like even that is an actually very inherent to it. No, it's stumbled on that. Yeah. Yeah. That was the point. Like, okay. Well, you two can kind of be a double act. And then they're just on the road for like a ton of new York, New York does not take place in New York. No. 100%. It takes place in like empty, nor New York, not New York, nor New York, like empty ass, like ballrooms. Yes. And they're just kind of bickering or fighting with someone else. It's like the grandest sets you've ever seen. I do want to call out the kind of continuation of the meat nasty, which on paper sounds like a meat cube is like their friends hook up. So then they're both kind of waiting for the other friend to vacate the room. So then they run into each other in the lobby of the hotel. And he's trying to skirt his bill and she's looking for him. And then she drags him into it. So then he's so angry that she exposed him that that's basically how he loops her into the audition because he's trying to steal her cab. But like it's like a complete like in a charming movie, it's like, oh, the series of misunderstandings that lead to them in the back of a cab together. And instead it's just like this guy fucks every single thing up. He's been staying at like seven different luxury hotels dining out on this idea that he's a veteran pretending he's gotten a wooden leg and PTSD and all of this. It really does make me think he's lying about all of it. Yeah. He doesn't have much of a backstory, so we don't really understand why he's like this. But I just want to clarify, yeah, yeah, no clarifying note that the audition isn't even like, well, he warms her up to the idea of maybe if we tried playing together, like even that is the thing they fully stumble into. Yeah, right. Yeah. She's like, play a quieter song. He's like, fuck you. I cannot overstate then how much of the movie is him being a jerk before she goes into labor. It is a full hour plus, like there is not really much movement in the plot. No, but we discussed at this point is the first 30 minutes, right? And then there was an hour before the movie really kicks into gear, and it's stuck in a cul-de-sac of just these people. You're at a bar and you watch two people fighting and you're like, that looks like a terrible relationship. He showed up. I was so grateful. Right. Like a guy who seemed to have a lived experience. He's like, yeah, he's great. I'm not going to tell you where she is. I really like her. I like being her agent. You're like, yeah, a person. You know what I think part of the different actors in the very good place, obviously. Very good place. Very primus. Yeah. Liza, but, you know, right, right down the band. If we're looking at the Lewin Davis Jimmy Doyle spectrum, right? I think part of it is that like Jimmy Doyle is such a know-it-all. He's so convinced that he has everything figured out that he's the most talented guy. And the two things that trigger him more than anything are if anyone upstages him. And if anyone dares suggest there's anything he could do to improve his act versus Lewin Davis kind of knows he's fucking up. He's frustrated at the world, but he's just like, I need something to make it all click into place for me. This guy is just like, immovable. Right. Well, what do we do when we see like broken men in media? Like we can understand them if, or difficult men in media, I guess, like if they're a little bit broken and we understand the wound, we can empathize. If they're super talented, we go, oh, they're so talented, the shame they're so. Right. They're wasting this talent. Because by being self-destructive or whatever, Jimmy Doyle has neither of these things. And because it takes forever for us to see his talent, which is considerable once it shows up. But by then we hate him so much. And we never see the wound, he's kind of grifting everybody all the time. I just saw a manhunt her last night. They were screening the new cut, which adds in happy endings. It just adds in 40x, 12 minutes of New York New York. No, but there's a line in that film where William Peterson is trying to pathologize dollar hide. And it sounds like you feel bad for him. And he says something to the effect of like, I'm allowed to like empathize with the child while still hating the monster that child became. And this movie never really knew that you have no reason to. Yes. And it's not like you want some crazy backstory dump, but you need something. No, it's not like this movie is fixed to peace. Like, I'm by the way, my dad was a jerk. Yeah, I'm probably lonely driver. It's so humorous, too. It is. Yeah, it's not funny at all. He's just funny in this era. This is a funny. I think so much of the scene in the Irishman where he's mad that Stephen Graham's wearing shorts, which is one of the like greatest scenes, Corsese. You have a little late and I don't count for traffic. And like, I was like, now there's a meeting that goes wrong that takes too long in a Corsese movie that I could watch on YouTube once a day, right? Just like to Nero giving this guy shit. You know, you're right. Like, and like, why are all those scenes in this movie just kind of like painful and kind of just you're just sort of like waiting for me to be over? And it's because they're not very funny. I also think there's a contrast between the care Corsese is taking to make a beautiful movie and the nothing of thought that has gone into what they're. It's all behind them. All the work has is the set. Yeah. And actually just a good transition. I did get an email from the the homie John candor. I asked him New York, New York memories. Like the movie you have. Yeah, I asked him about the movie. If it would be fun if he was like, you know, Broadway, battery park, he's just telling you. Yeah. But I will, you know, got a subway. Candor served in World War II. He is one. He'd be one of those guys at that party, one of those hundreds of guys. And he said, uh, it was not a terrible experience. In fact, it provided one day of the most glamorous Hollywood experience I've ever had. I had never visited or worked on a huge Hollywood soundstage before. And Scorsese had reinvented 1945 inside this great big building filled with people. Lots of soldiers in uniform in the proper haircut, a big band with the visual double of Tommy Dorsey leading it. Everything felt exactly like that year. I was in the service then. I walked inside that building and was kind of overwhelmed. It was real time travel. Then I walked out of the main door and onto Sandy Road, where it was 55 years later. And I jumped back into 1945 and then jumped back into the dusty present. It was bizarre, thrilling, and confusing. Um, he served in Korea as well. Although I think he didn't actually go maybe into like the battlefield or, but he was unactive duty. Yes. But he, I mean, like, again, a testament to how much care is in every frame of the look of the movie. And then they just said, we'll figure out how they fall in love later. Well, this, this is the other thing. Like it's not just that Scorsese was given too much rope, but at this moment, De Niro is the new Brando. De Niro is the guy, right? Sure. And there has to be this feeling of like whatever he's doing is going to be compelling. And even if you're sitting there watching it, you know, on the set, you're like, I bet it edits together. This guy can make anything. Well, three editors tried. Yes. I mean, he is compelling because he is De Niro. He is compelling, I guess. Yeah. It's not my favorite De Niro performance. You just want to get away from this to take. Yes. Yeah. That's the problem is he feels so unfixable. Right. And unformed by De Niro standards, too. I think so, apart from he really plays that saxophone. Yeah, except when he's playing sax, there's Jimmy too. But like part of the other extended sequence that gets lifted for the European cut of the movie is the, it's the fight in the red room and all of that. But also when they start writing the song together was one of the things they cut out at one point where he's like noting her lyrics or whatever. Which beyond the fact that it's exciting because you're starting to hear the familiar strains. And it's really exciting to watch today because you were like, oh, they're in the process of writing one of the most immortal songs ever. It is the best encapsulation of their dynamic within one scene. Yeah, another scene that's very, very painful and tough is their wedding, where they like, they like break the window of a justice to the piece. That's maybe the only moment that made me laugh. It's funny because it's stained. Yeah. And then he's like, yeah, can you get us married? And then Liza's like, takes them sometimes like, wait, is that the proposal to me? Is this is this it? This is the conversation about us getting married. But it's a hard scene, obviously. And then like, eventually we just built to him berating her so insanely in a cab that she goes into labor. And then he's like, okay, okay, okay, okay. Takes her to a hospital and it's like, by the way, but not raising. I couldn't be more out. Which fair, he knows himself, I guess, enough to be like, yeah, no, not going to be a present father. And then she becomes famous because of a song because of, but the world goes around. I'm telling you the plot of the movie is like as much as I can. Yes. I mean, it gets incredibly repetitive while looking really, really beautiful. And you just watch as she clearly knows what she's doing, but doesn't the confidence to speak for herself. He is so overpowering and so repugnant that it feels like anyone who kind of sniffs around them is scared off. And people usually try to leave with some parting words of like, hey, lady, you know what you should do? But it takes a while for anyone to actually kind of break through. When she tells him that she's pregnant, he does not seem very excited. He doesn't know how to process it. He runs away and then acts like he's doing a bit of him rewinding it, which is a little bit charming. It's the closest he comes to being funny to her in the movie. But then I think the movie comes alive at the scene in the delivery room where it's like, he starts, she names the kid Jimmy Jr. The kid is later in the movie played by Aaron Winkler's son, which is also fascinating. But he starts the scene getting angry at her for not letting him weigh in on the name of the kid. I mean, yeah, there's no world in which he is a halfway decent human. Totally. It's it's like such as whole shit and it's such a bad argument. And then he basically gives it up that he doesn't really care. And he was looking for a reason to be angry. He basically starts breaking down. It's like his only moment of vulnerability in the movie up until that point where he doesn't respond to something with escalating anger. He like just stops. And even when he's chewing her out for naming the kid without him, after him, after him, he's doing it in a very quiet intense way, which is a little interesting. And you speaking about him not being as funny as he usually is in this movie, David, I think a lot of funny De Niro, like the short scene in Irishman, is the slow burn? Is the, he's starting so small. He's getting a little irritated. Yeah. Right. And you're waiting for it to pop. It's just explosive right away. Beginning to end. You want him to bring up that he has nipple and then escalate too. Can you milk me? Right. These things have to come in two separate beats. I think that scene is really fascinating because he basically starts admitting, I know I can't do this. I know I'm not going to raise this kid. I was trying to come up with an argument to get into a fight to get you to kick me out. It's like what he lacks the emotional intelligence to actually say. And you watch this guy just like completely crumble and tap out. Now when she goes back to New York, he stays on the road, they get a replacement singer. Do they have an affair together? 100% right? Yeah. He's got a one-night with Mary K place. Yeah. He's a bad guy. He's a bad guy. Yeah. He's not the bad guy. There's also, there's also a scene where he kind of has a lingering look with the young woman in the Harlem club who sings "Honey Suckel Rose" who like cut it if I'm wrong, but I think was Denero's wife. Correct. Yes. 100%. Yes. So they're like, yeah, like they kind of give each other a look. She goes family night, huh? So I was like, oh, you fucked her too. Yeah. I think that's sort of the, she's in taxi drivers. Well, Diane Abbott. And like, is that where they met? I can't remember. I believe so. I feel like we talked about it. I can't, but you know, but yes, so she's basically in this, but it's like beyond a cameo because she like belts a number. Beautiful. Yeah. That's great. All our punish it. Like anyone in his order. Right. He's either gotten to fight with or had sex with. And it's also, no, and his peak is that he's going to own a club, like which does feel like what Jimmy's going to be capable of. Like she becomes a movie star or whatever. Like she becomes like a museum record selling, sing, you know, right? Like, but he's going to be like a good musician who owns a club, but they all stick. They each have, they each have one half of a song. Yes. Right. She's got New York and he's got New York. Exactly. Right. They thought the city is so nice. Your name is one. Yes. From. Yes. No, he comes up with the riff. Yeah. And then she tries to write these lyrics that he's really dismissive of. Yeah. Right. This is the vibe. It's enough to make him like a one-hit wonder, which he then takes all the way to owning a club and being a minor celebrity, which is all, I think this guy really cared about. But it's, it's a structural issue in the movie where we're saying like Mary K. Place has a really good number, right? Die. and Abbot has a really good number. Liza lacks many numbers until the end, because it has all the numbers. But part of the conceit of the movie is, well, she's sort of a little trepidacious. She was sort of like a lower tier USO girl. It takes a lot for her to come into her power. So the movie's depriving us of Liza doing the Liza thing. - It does kinda yada yada that part for a long time. - Yeah, yeah. - When you get it, ultimately-- Rox, super saddest. - There is one other number, which is the Harlem number where De Niro's playing with Clarence Clements' character. And they just fucking blow. And it's pure jazz, like crazy hot jazz. And it's just, no one's singing. It's just great. And he shoots the shit out of it. And I was like, oh, Jimmy, just keep the fucking saxophonism out there until the movie will be called in. - There's like an alternate human centipede version of this movie where they send me to a third gen. - He's glued to the saxophone at all times. - And then she's like, yeah, we make our marriage work. - Yeah, it's fine. He's one-toot, one-toot, one-toot. - Yeah, it's one-toot. - Right, yeah, exactly. - I mean, and I remember the show had like the Harlem concert-- - Yeah, it took that guy. - And there was like the San Juan club. Like you were trying to incorporate, right, like all of New York's, myriad musical movements in this way that made sense. And this movie is-- - Yeah, it does, not really. - That number's the only kind of head nod towards that direction. - Right, this movie's a more jitter. - Well, I don't know what, I mean, I don't know what-- I don't want to sound decisive of it. 'Cause it's a fascinating film. And it looks incredible. And there are parts of it that really sing that you guys are talking, you know, they are noting. And if it wasn't such a punishing first half, I think this second half could be like, you know, whatever. Like there's probably a better version of this movie, not with more stuff though, less stuff. - No, no less stuff. - And yet the thing they took out was the wrong thing. - It's such an anxiety dream of like, man, we've got everything right. And the one thing we don't, like, it's like the nightmare of you go to school and you have not studied this task. Like, yeah, it's still, okay, it's the day to shoot. Did you write the scenes where they fall in love? - But you do hear about movies where it's like, do you know they shot a completely different version? Yeah, there's a whole hour they cut out that was supposed to be the opening. Or like this character just got removed entirely. Like, it feels like it needed like major, major surgical intervention, but I think they just had to start making it. - Yeah, that's what happened. And then they made it-- - No, I'm not sure. - Yeah. - And I think they even did some reshoots like based on, you know, what they were cutting together, but not much. - I mean, this movie has an ace in the hole, which is that the last thing that's gonna happen is Liza Menali's gonna sing New York, New York. - And it works. - Theme from New York, New York. - That's right. - Theme from New York. - Maybe you are watching. - Yes. - It'd be funny if every time Sinatra had to be like, anyway, this is a little song called Theme from New York. - I'm gonna say it for you. - Hey, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. - Theme from New York, come on, New York. (laughing) - And it does send you out of the theater, satisfied at least from that. - Beyond that, she follows that up by standing him up and standing up for herself. - Yes, you're at least, like, Jimmy is not- - That is triumphant. - That is true. - Loses. - The evil has been defeated. - Yeah, sort of. - Even when she sings that triumphant rendition, he's like, you do it different than I do it. - I think it's incredible. - He's like, he's noting her after. I mean, it's Liza Minnelli singing in New York, New York. - He got like three swipes to add in a number one. - I mean, Variety's review was like, Minnelli tears into the title song and it's a wowser. You know, like, that was the good reviews were mostly like, I loved it when she sang. She's great at that. - They reviewed it like Mission Impossible final reckoning where they're like, well, at the end, he does climb on a plane. (laughing) It takes two hours to get there, but there's like three swipes he has at her in that final scene where he calls the movie "Sappy Endings" and she goes, happy endings and he goes, yeah, yeah, right. He says, you sang it differently and there's one other one, but it's like incredible where he just, he cannot give her an inch. He cannot let anyone have anything on him. - Oh, he says, I'm proud of you in a way. - Yes, yes, in a way, I'm proud of you. - Right, you know what? You're gonna find this funny. I'm almost proud of you. The film cost $9 million, which was a lot for them. It grossed 16. So it didn't even like flop in the terms of like it couldn't, you know, made its budget back, but obviously the expectations for it were high and critics didn't like it. Can be says it runs out of steam and calls it a film buff essay on pop film form, you know, like they're sort of calling it out. It's kind of like we get that you like old movies, but that doesn't mean you made a good one. Ebert gives it three stars, which for Ebert is like a pan. Like, you know, because Ebert loves Scorsese so much and it's just kind of like never really pulls itself together. Zero Academy Award nominations, which is bananas because it has the song "Feme from New York." - It has five banger canternebs on it. - Here are the nominees for best original song. And I wondered if, you know, the homie John Canter was gonna complain about this, but I guess he, you know, he's. - No, he had nothing but delightful things to say. He's a delight. "Candle on the Water from Pete's Dragon." - That is quite a good song. - A lovely song from Pete's Dragon. - Lynn, "Candle on the Water" thoughts. - Sure. - Okay, okay. I'm not gonna fight you. - I honestly don't remember Pete's Dragon. That's more of my sisters around. - I can't say I remember the movie or the song very well. - I think the song is better than the film. - Sure. - And Bonnie Prince Billy did a cover for the David Lowry version. That's very good as well. - My pick for winner from these five, which unbelievably does not win. Nobody does it better from the spy who loved me, which is a great James Bond song. - A song that rocks animals. - Right, nothing wrong with that one. Like if you told me that beat New York, New York, I would be like, "Well, that sound is good, "but I get it." That was it, you know, Carly Simon, obviously. - But it didn't win. - Did not win. No, you've also got the slipper and the rose waltz. He danced with me. She danced with me from the slipper and the rose, the story of Cinderella. - That must have had a bang and interpretive dance. - I'm sure no one knows what that is, but it's a British musical from the '70s. - Up there with Crash. - Yeah, yeah. Someone's waiting for you from the rescuers, the Disney mouse movie. - Don't care for that song. - I don't remember that song. - I only remember down under, I'm an 80s child. - Absolutely, I agree, better movie. - We didn't have a song, I don't think. - I might have slept in some didgeridoo at the end or something. - Oh, I don't know, right? Did they do something? - Yes. - They must have. - And the winner was you light up my life. - Oh, which, you know. - But that's an infamous one. - That's right. - Yeah, no, no, no. That's one where you put it on and my parents look at at each other and go, "Remember," and get like kissy. - That, that, of course, is from the Joseph Brooks kind of like weepy, you light up my life. - I'm staring at you. - That is through the years. If you want to like, sort of light candles for my parents and say, they say, leave us alone, put on like, through the years, Kenny Rogers, you light up my life. Those are like the 70s jam. - That is a movie that was a mega hit based on the song, basically. The song propelled it to cultural dominance. - Yeah. - I still think there's room hot take for theme from New York to New York. - You're asking us. - I can go along with some of the other songs they wrote for this movie, right? I mean, don't you agree? - 100%. - Absolutely. - The world goes round is a great song. - Also in an objective world, this movie like, deserves a cinematography nomination and art direction, nomination. - And they are direction and stuff. I mean, I think obviously that this probably just like the category for everyone's mouth. - Yeah, exactly. Like, well, no, that was a flop. So we'll just ignore it. I mean, I'm like, that is the Star Wars year. Obviously. So that's winning things like production design. You've got close encounters that year. That's a big one. Can't deny that. - I mean, but a funny comparison point is obviously Annie Hall wins Best Picture this year and Annie Hall is a movie where they cut like 45 minutes out of it because it originally had like a murder plot and things that they were like, we conceive this and it doesn't work. So cut it down to the only stuff that is good. - Yes. - And it worked. - What New York New York should have done. - Sure. Scorsese basically says like, maybe if I was a European director, I could have gotten away with that movie, but I was promising them something that I couldn't deliver, which was kind of this throwbacky musical, right, this kind of magic thing. He's like, it was funny that we released in '81 and got better reviews for basically the same movie, although they had put back in the best number. But a week after they opened, he, he, Scorsese thinks Star Wars opened after them. It actually opened before. He doesn't really remember. He was high on code. I mean, sorry. - And he's just like, we just look so old-fashioned compared to Star Wars. Like Star Wars is just so crazy and new. And we're like, ba, ba, ba, ba, you know, like we got these old sets and everyone's just like, you're this ain't it. - It's why the panic last minute cuts happened is because they saw Star Wars in theaters and they were like, we suddenly look fucking ancient. We know this isn't gonna fly with people. - Guess who did love it? Jean-Luc Codard. - Okay. - It comes over Philancheon is like, I loved, you know, but pieces of shit those characters were essentially. I love that it was about jealousy and envy and all that stuff. And again, I think Marty is not like, oh, he's right, I'm brilliant. He's more like, right, there's a version of this kind of thing that could work in the hands of that kind of a director. But I was, yeah, I was fighting off more. I could chew. He doesn't like this movie. He's like, I still don't like it. In a way I love it in a way I can see there's there's some truth to it but like he's like I don't you know he doesn't think fondly of near. I mean it's his nature and so many ways. Yes. And both professionally and personally like he's also going through the worst. Right. Exactly. And it's every it's not like the movies about a different thing than the things he's going through. It's I think the other times he ended up getting attacked. It was for things he cared about more you know. Yeah. Like he does not discuss the experience of living through last temptation of Christ as easy. No. But it was like this movie. I tried to make right. I knew I need to make this. I think this was like this would be a fun idea for a movie. Right. Right. And then everything torpedo. Uh, it does get four golden globe nominations for, you know, musical economy for De Niro and Liza. And for song and for song losing again to you light up my life. It was unstoppable. Liza loses to Diane Keaton. And uh, and De Niro loses to Richard Dreyfus. Right. Who won the. Oh. Okay. Yeah. So anyway. Uh, the box office game Griffin if you would like to hear about it. Okay. Number one of the box office is not Star Wars. That is number two. Just to give away. What month is it? This is, uh, basically fourth of July weekend, uh, 1977. Okay. Which like what the fuck by the way, opening this in the middle of summer and saying it doesn't seem like a good idea. Star Wars obviously opens May 22nd. Yeah. So the Star Wars has been out for good six weeks and I think is is doing okay business. It will return to number one. This is not its final. Yeah. Indeed. In return to number one, uh, then to very next week. But number one this week is, you know, jaws. What else is that guy written? Let's make anything that guy has fucking written right now into a movie. Oh my god. It's not Orca's. No. Orca wasn't even eventually novel. Okay. Okay. Orca was just like, what's another kind of fish that bites you? Is it about a creature? Yeah. I think it's about the water. It's about the water. Is it the deep? The deep. There we go. It is the Peter Yates film. The deep starring Robert Shaw. You know him from jaws? Yeah. I don't know how to do it. Yeah. Jacqueline Bissett. Yes. I've never seen it. Yes. Uh, I, but it's like a scuba diving movie. I think. Yes, they go quite deep. Good for them. Louis Gossett Jr. is there Eli Wallack. I mean, this sounds pretty fun. There used to be a kind of good formula. Yeah. It's just so funny to me that they're just like jaws hit and they're like, you there. It's like, what else is in that bookshelf? Look, there was, there was like a Crichton feeding frenzy after Jurassic. Sometimes this happens. Yeah. We're in the Colleen Hoover Sons right now. All right. So number two is Star Wars. You're a fan. Man, you like Star Wars. You know, did fan. Seeing it. Yeah. Um, you're, you're my youngest is just on the original trilogy. How'd that go over? Great. Yeah. And you know, he knows what everyone's talking about. And you started understanding English started four five six. You were like, we're doing four five. Yeah. Right. Yeah. His brother's seen everything. Okay. Right. Yeah. Um, who's this favorite character? Was he scared? I mean, no, you're the younger's like, oh, and like, I remember, I have video of my oldest like seeing the twist of like, I am your father. I didn't just not. How's that robot is father? You just looked really confused. He rejected it. He rejected it. Whereas Frank, he was like, I knew this. Yeah. Like there are kids books about Darth Vader. The golden books. Yeah. So, uh, uh, no surprises for him. It's probably Luke. Luke's probably favorite. Luke's pretty great. Luke's pretty great. Who's your favorite? Oh, I don't know. I, I do like the snatches of occasional Spanish. You hear a job of the Hudson say like, we're not with us solo. In return to the Jedi, which is like a horror solo. I'm partial to Hatties. I said, get the right song and Hatties for episode seven. Right. That's right. I mean, I remember the Sunday road. I guess I never thought about that it was in Hatties, but yeah, yeah, I'm partial to the Spanish adjacent that is Hatties. I like that play. What's her mask canada? Yeah, she up to. I don't know. We got to get her back and move. Yeah, we're smooth. I was thinking about her recently, actually. She's she remember how she has a crush on Chewbacca. She loves him. We were all just kind of like, yeah, Star Wars is back and then we're all like sick of it. Let's get it back. Let's come on. It's all everyone forgets how triumphant it felt when Force Awakens came out. I'm not claiming that everyone in the world love that movie, but there was a general consensus. It's like it's nice. Safe again. Yeah. Star Wars is backward. Yeah. Mask canada has really tiny eyes. And then she like zooms in with them. Her goggles are huge. Yeah, they match. She goes click, click, click. And she opens up a case and says, we'll talk about this later. Yeah. There's a lot of that in Force Awakens. Don't worry. We'll get to that. Yeah. We'll get to that. Hey, number four at the box office is not a movie I know, although I know the title. So I'm going to look it up. It is. I'm going to guess it's a thriller. It's based on a novel. Okay. This is calling it a drama. Okay. David feels defeated. Okay. All right. This film is best known as being part of a package deal. 20th century Fox's American distributors arranged to ensure a film. The company had little confidence in a little film called Star Wars, which also be exhibited. So these film Star Wars and this film were released together. This film was a flop. It got poorer views. It was seen as long and bloated. It stars Susan a young Susan Sarandon, uh, the French actress, uh, Marie France PCA. Hmm. I don't know, man. I probably recognize this title because of that Star Wars trivia. I feel like I remember that it is called the other side of midnight. Yep. I don't know. Yeah. It says it's a romance of passion and power. Isn't it funny to like consider that their movies like that that people work just as hard on as the greatest films ever made. And it only exists as a footnote of, hey, you know, they bundled this flop with Star Wars. Like that's that movie's entire legacy. That is true. Number five. What is a legacy? What is a legacy? And that's a Disney legend asking question. Number five is another film that I feel like for a long time was famous for coming out against Star Wars and flopping. It is a masterpiece. It's a great movie. Sorcerer. It is William Freak and Sorcerer. But right. Like famously got its lunch eaten by Chewbacca and company at the time. Is Heaven's Gate? 80s. Sorry, 78 maybe. Yeah. No, even later. 80s. Okay. That's the end. Yeah. That's the like pack it up, boys. It's wild to have Sorcerer and York New York at the same time. Well, because two strikes new Hollywood. But De Niro is in this in 77 in 78 his comeback or whatever is deer hunter. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course two years later. Chewbacca with Heaven's Gate. Yeah. You're under arrest. A bridge too far, which is another kind of like bad movie that was like a giant, you know what I mean? Like another movie that Star Wars kind of showed up. It's like a Richard Atenborough movie. It's like three hours long. It's a giant war. That's the one that has every one in it. Connery, Kane, Jean Hackman, Anthony Hopkins, Lawrence, Olivia, Robert Redford, like, you know, and what's it about? It's like, the war. We had to, you know, like we had to do the war. And William Goldman writes, he wrote it and he writes, you know, he, he roasts it in one of his books. But a famous sort of flop. The cream really rises at the top in the 70s and what we remember and not just the masterpieces, but even the kind of schlocky stuff like the deep, you know, when we got the disaster movie right and stuff like that, it is fascinating to do these 70s top 10 lists or even when you and I have been doing like 70s letterbox lists. And you're just like, and then the remaining 70% is nothing. Well, well, it's funny that like my kids and all our kids will grow up like loving airplane and not understanding that that was like an annual type of movie that came out in the 70s that they were spoofing. And we're just like, what a weird funny move. They don't get the joke, the right, the parody, but they, the movie's funny. So they don't care. It's the magic of the airplane is airplane works minus any context. Yes. Yeah. The rest of the list is extra just through the heretic another famous bomb. Yeah. John Bournemann's sequel to the exages. The great Robert Altman film three women is opening this week at number eight. But that's another one where we're not going to let people do this again. Nope. A movie, of course, based on a dream. Uh-huh. Based on a dream by Robert Altman. Uh, number nine is Annie Hall, which is a giant hit. Number 10, a disaster film starring George Siegel roller coaster. Oh, which was shown in sense around the 40 X of its day. They would rumble your seats or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Where I don't know something happens on a roller coaster. I actually, I think that just got announced on 4K. I think, I think you know, Lord, are we done with this? We're almost done. We're almost done with the discs. George, you're not a movie disc collector in a major way. Are you? No, I now I use movie discs to get like the gaps in what I can get. Yeah. Right. The stuff that's not available. Like the New York, New York. Yeah. Well, I had New York, New York back from when I was still collecting. And then I actually just bought a little night music because that's like how Prince is only. Oh, sure. And I've never seen it. I've never seen it either. Sims and I are both so down bad with the sickness these days. It's bad. It's bad. It's bad. We're in a great time. We're texting each other stacks. What's that has arrived? I'm trying to take it easy for now because I got, you know, I got to it back into baseball cards. The act sort of consumed me for a while. There's only so many checks in those stacks to people. You want to see my card? Texting those tops come over. Yeah, getting some tops stacks of tops. You know, come on. So that's the top 10. uh, New York, New York, yes, obviously it's a flaw. Uh, sorry. It doesn't make a lot of money. And yet it endures partly because of the talent, partly because of the song. Right? I mean, it's not forgotten, but it's certainly one of Marty's least- No, and it's, it's, let me disowned. Yes. But it's, it also, I think, stands as his most, like, interesting experiments because anything else you could frame as an experiment on his part ended up being proven right at some point and then became influential where it's no longer something that feels risky. That belongs, got bits of New York, New York, totally. Um, I mean, well, a land we already mentioned. But I mean, this movie exists and yet when you were brought in to help with the musical and we're told, don't watch it. Number one, you were told, don't watch it too. You hadn't seen it because, you know, people haven't seen this movie. Yes. It was like easy to tell you not to watch it. That's like, that's, that's where this movie's at. There's probably like three other Marty movies you could say that are like that are kind of just in that sort of like, eh, no, like Kondune is there. No, offense to Kondune, which is a good movie. Well, like nobody's seen Kondune. Right? Nobody's really seen boxcar birth. I mean, that doesn't even I mean, I think this movie's really similar to who's that knocking at my door where it's like a movie fighting itself. And what I find interesting about it is that it's like, there's a cancer in the body. And the body is attacked. But who's that knocking is him with no money trying to figure out how to be a filmmaker? This is him after taxi driver, a good filmmaker learning his limits, I would say or and learning his and impaired and impaired and somewhat impaired to the point that and we'll talk about it next week on Raging Bull, he crashes out and Bobby sort of rescues him with Raging Bull. Like he's basically in the hospital and Bobby DeNiro is like, I want to play Jake Lamata. And Chris says he's like, I don't think I care about that. Like boxing, you know, and he's just like, you're just going to do it. You know, and the one of this thing is that Raging Bull is also Irwin Winkler. Yeah, who's totally to roll the dice on him again after this. Well, he'd fucking made taxi driver bitch. Yeah, he made a movie where it's like, what's the premise of this movie? It's like a crazy guy shoots up like a house and he's a cab driver and no one likes him. And you're like, it's the premise of the movie. Like, yeah, it's going to make money. People are going to see it like and and and and so and get like many, many Academy Award nominations. I mean, that is his guarantor because it is it's the perfect example of a movie where you go on paper. This should not work and it should not be a hit. And no one had really pulled it off before. And when you nail something like that, even if you step in shit a couple times in a row, people step back and go like, there's something he gets that we can't get from anywhere else. There's something he knows how to do. In that way, New York, New York is the blank checkiest. A hundred percent. Definitely. Of all of this. It is a huge blank check for him. And it's a failure that I love this book. That's telling this podcast. I don't think there's anything until gang's in New York that's quite a blank checkie for him. And quite as crazy in terms of scale. And that's another movie that I love that also goes over weird. But this is this is the start of him being always on slight probationary status until the 2000s when he becomes an elder statesman. 90s he's having to like, I'll do one for them in order to get to make my edgy prashin project and things are up and down. Lin, tell us about your edgy passion projects as we wrap this podcast. I'm edgy passion projects all the way down. I'm doing a Broadway musical of the warrior. You're going to rock. It's going to roll. Yeah. So I mean, in rehearsal, we're in rehearsals for the workshop of that right now. So that means we're basically like figuring out how to sing and fight at the same time. Right. Would there be a subway train on stage at all times? There, you will see a subway car. Thank God. I think that's a spoiler, but you will definitely see a subway car. And who is playing the subway car? You're looking at a lot of trains right now. So yeah, so we're in the thick of that. And I am on basically while I work on this, I'm on a six week hiatus from the edit of Octet, which I shot this spring with a little blanky Rachel Zegler. Rachel. Rachel Petia has known to her cast saying this that she pulls out the facts. She's a, she's a freakish, uh, pop culture. And fricking, you know, Phil Paso and man to say for it and right. It's her show. It's all killer. It's Jamel Tellman, Charlie Ralph, John DeGroff, Gain Madarata. I saw in Sweeney Todd. You cite this performance a lot. And I was like, damn, no, no, he's a stranger. Thanks, kids. Good. He's legit. Incredible. He's these baby gavroshes and baby billioliates grow up and rule the world. That's this is true. I always forget her name, but from hereditary. Oh, yeah, that's right. Fuck, what is it? It's a Matilda. Um, yes, uh, and Abigail's a Matilda. Remember, remember Abigail doing the ballet? Yeah, white and people snacks. I like that movie. It's a Milly Shapiro. Yes, there we go. Yeah. Um, yeah. Uh, and yes, of course, Tom Holland was a Billy Elliot, right? Yeah, no original Billy Elliot, but he was a Billy Elliot. Yeah, he was a British Billy. He was a Billy Elliot. Um, yeah, those are the two things. So you got, you got shit cooking. I got shit cooking. Yeah. That's kind of exciting. Yeah. I don't know. Thank you for coming on our show while you're busy doing all this stuff. Yeah, it's my pleasure. I'm always here when you got you guys always have sort of the like the thing I cannot say no to. Right. We like a lot of a fun one. And we try to make our ass count. Yeah, exactly. We're not gonna do it. I have to do it. And I can just every so often be like, right, I don't know what's a random, you know, loser, Amy Hickling's loser. Unless you do have teenager, I do love Amy Hickling. Yeah. Hickling rules. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Griffin, I don't know. We're done. Griffin, I don't know. I mean, is there anything else? I'm trying to see him from blank check. blank check. Yeah, team from blank check blank check. We should, we should, we should. Yeah, we need to commission that right. Yeah. Okay. And that's when you, and that's when you start the last Waltz podcast. Okay. Like right there when you said that, the proper, the machete cut, the proper listening order is paused right now. Listen to our last Waltz episodes. Right. And then come back here as I do the outro. So rather than the outro, the opening of the episode will be the same. But rather than the outro being our usual instrumental version, I'm gonna do the outro. And then theme from blank check blank check is gonna play. And you're on Coke now. Yes. That's the other thing that's happened while you guys were listening to the last Waltz episode developed a debilitating. I've been chipping cocaine left. I'm right. You're chipping. Oh, you're chipping. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. tune in next week for raging ball. But last Waltz will be happening on Patreon. That's right. Sorry to last. Yes. I mean, but also we decided to talk about last. Yes. And as always, the making of New York, New York was normal. [Music] blank check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me Ben Hossley, our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our associate producer is Aja McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by Aja McKeon and Alan Smithy, research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lame Montgomery in the Great American novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick, special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, blank check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social @blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by blank check productions.