New World (Dis)order

Hello, bonjour, Antonce. I'm Paul Assignments and this is Alberta Unbound. When Prime Minister Mark Carney addressed the World Economic Forum in Davos last month, he talked about the need for middle powers, including Canada, to create what he called "a dense web of connections across trade, investment and culture." But in our new world, disorder, how does Canada weave that web? And what role could and should Alberta have in crafting this new future? How do we, as Albertans, leverage our economic and social strengths to play a meaningful part in this time of shattered and shifting alliances, in this time of new threats and new opportunities? This is a special edition of Alberta Unbound, recorded before a live studio audience at the University of Alberta in Amisquichewaska, Hagan, as part of the U of A's International Loop. And I'm delighted to be joined on stage here in the Tori Breezeway by three brilliant guests to discuss these questions. Dr. Rickiara is the Dean of the Faculty of Agricultural, Life and Environmental Sciences, a past president and fellow of the International Academy of the International Union of Food Science and Technology, and a consultant to Food Science Institutes and ThinkTanks from Hong Kong to Australia to New Zealand. Dr. Charlie Umbala is a professor of Political Science at the U of A's Campus Sanjón and the director of the Santo de la Lisi de Prospecte de Ciudades Afrique and a founding member of the African and Latin American Research Group. And the honorable Anne McLean is a former professor of law at the University of Alberta, a former federal minister of justice, of natural resources, of emergency preparedness, and also, of course, Deputy Prime Minister in the government of Paul Martin. Charlie, Ricky, and welcome to Alberta Unbound. Thank you. All right, so first question I'm going to throw this wide open. In this time of change and dare I say chaos as old alliances in our faith in the rules-based international order breaks down, what is Canada's single largest challenge and where is our greatest opportunity? And Anne, I'm going to start with you. Thank you very much, Senator, and it's great to be back at the University of Alberta. I spent many years here teaching, as you've already mentioned, so it's great to be back. Look, I think our biggest challenge right now is an erratic president in the White House. And I know that's an obvious answer, but I think that is the case. That it is very hard to deal with the irrational. Let me use that word. Changes the sharp dodges one way or another that you hear from him at three in the morning. Prime Minister Karney or Premier Smith go to bed at night, and unless they're up at three or four, when they get that call at six or seven to start the day, all of a sudden something has changed and could have changed dramatically. So I actually think it is an erratic president and a Congress that doesn't have the courage to stand up to him. And an opportunity. Just so that we're not all going to break. Actually, ironically, the opportunity is the erratic president of the United States in that that erratic, irrational president has forced us out of what I call Canadian complacency. It was too easy. Everything was too easy north, south, at least I'm talking here about private sector, which I deal with. And in fact, what this president has done is forced us to realize that we were way too reliant on the United States of America. There's a big world out there. And as Prime Minister Karney said, there are a whole bunch of middle powers with whom we should be working and dealing and trading. So ironically, I think it's the president who has given us this amazing opportunity if we choose to take it. All right. So you've just heard Anne's take. What for you is our greatest challenge and what is our greatest opportunity? Well, thank you Senator Simon. I would agree with Anne. You know, the biggest challenge in the agricultural field, and I think this is true for many areas, is the politicalization of trade, you know, for unreal reasons, you know, whether it be electric vehicles or whatever. But you know, that has been the biggest challenge because Canada has been known and is still known for the high quality agricultural products that they produce. And so that has been the challenge. The opportunity as Anne has identified is the exploration of markets we haven't explored. And also the creation of value add in the agricultural sector. So innovation and entrepreneurialism is our opportunity. Now Charlie, your academic focus is on Africa and Latin America. So let me ask you, where do you see Canada's greatest challenge and opportunity in that area? Yes. Thank you, honorable. Before answering the question, I have to to bleed your, how can I say it? Your patience because English is not my first language. So if I speak slowly, it's not because I'm tired of sleeping. Because I want to make myself understood appropriately. Let me say that when I think of that question, I think of four words on certainty. I vote about that. Instability, identity and sovereignty. And I think the second one is the answer to the first one because Canada has been used to sleeping beside an elephant. And I think now we are obliged to wake up because of that uncertainty. By waking up, Canada is obliged to think differently, to behave differently and to behave also strategically. That's why new partners like Africa or Latin America become like a pivot partners for a new Canada. And Canada which do no longer have the perception of these United States of Canada. This time for Canada to behave like a country united so that it can probably oppose that elephant which has waking up. Now, Alberta is a province and not a country at least for now. It has a population of just five million. But it has always had ambitions to play a role on the world stage. So, Anne, I'm going to circle back to you. You served as Minister of Natural Resources. Later you were on the board of what was then called Nexon. How important is Alberta's energy sector to the role we want to play internationally? How do we leverage that? Oh, I think it's very important. I think when you look at first of all our current account in terms of any hope for balance, it's around the fact that we are exporting natural resources right now, particularly oil, natural gas, more natural gas, both to America and Asia. But we're also a mining nation, we're a forestry nation, we're an agricultural nation and a fishery powerhouse, right? So, in fact, our natural resources and Alberta's particular natural resources, oil, gas, forestry, critical minerals of certain kinds. I think the province actually is very important to how we present ourselves to the rest of the world and what we have to offer to the rest of the world. But as the Prime Minister has made playing, there come some challenges being a natural resource rich province and country, quite truthfully. And as you extract and refine those resources that the rest of the world wants to purchase, we have to make sure we're doing it in a sustainable way because I do agree with the Prime Minister that soon you can see the trend. And the trend is in one way, which is actually people will pay a premium for sustainably produced natural resources, whatever that word may mean in the particular context. Now, Charlie, Africa has some of the world's fastest growing economies. And with the United States pulling out of agencies such as the World Health Organization, cutting off much, if not all of its development funding, it seems to me that there's a huge vacuum. One that China seems very keen to jump in and to fill. So, what does Canada need to do to step into some of the space that the United States has vacated and how might Alberta help with that? That's a very good question because by trying to justify its, let's say, partnerships. Canada needs to think not on volumes because we can't compete with China with an emerging countries like India and Africa. So, even traditional partners like France or European Union, which are present in Africa, it is important for Canada to think instead of volumes but values. And I think we can make a difference by bringing about the idea of how we can trade other people respectfully. So, with respect, we can grow from our values if I can repeat myself because I think when having to deal with certain partners in Africa, we don't approach them like a country we teach them, which is them what to do. So, we have an attitude which can be very helpful and we also have the diaspora. The diaspora can help Canada, for our B have a very good and very efficient partnership with Africa. And we see the number of francophones, which is increasing in Alberta. Yeah, I mean, it's really changed the demography of the francophone community here. When I'm on campus, I see the number of students, I don't know how many international students and how many are Canadian-born students whose parents have come from Sub-Saharan Africa but it's a complete change from what it would have been 20 years ago. Absolutely. And I think, let's say, Alberta can also draw some lessons from Quebec Experience in Africa. And because I think with our natural resources, we can have some partnership with countries like RDC, Congo, or even some countries like Nigeria, even if they don't francophones, but in terms of oil, they are very key partners that Alberta can deal with. In terms of Congo, Angola, Mozambique, and in terms of francophonie, I think Canada identity is nothing without French. That's why Alberta can also partner with francophone countries by using Canada identity, if I may. Yes, that's fantastic. Ricky, Alberta, as you mentioned, has incredible expertise in agricultural production and food technology. So, thinking geopolitically, what are the best ways for us to leverage that knowledge, both to help feed a hungry world and to help us step into a global leadership role? You know, and I'll pick up on what Charlie said, you know, the internationalization of Canada. I think, you know, that's a wonderful thing that we see at academic institutions, the diversity of ethnicities, you know, cultural backgrounds of our students. Because they bring to the academic environment different ways of approaching a problem that we probably, as Canadians, haven't thought about. And that's the wonderful thing of academic institutions is how do we solve problems? And I think sometimes we are so boxed in to thinking one way. And so, you know, Charlie, as you talk about the francophonie, that's the richness of Canada. The diversity of the francophonie world, too, because there is not one francophonie world, there is many francophonies. And I think that's a beauty. And, you know, you talked about diversification. You know, that's the other thing. We get out there as Canadians, and I think we have to stop being Canadian and promote ourselves, because we have superb intellectual capacity that we need to share with the rest of the world. So I want to pick up, but I'm going to come back to you for a second here, Ricky. When Karney was at Davos, he talked about building this alliance of middle powers. You have worked extensively in Australia and New Zealand, and in other parts of the Asia Pacific. How important is it for us to build ties with middle powers? Not just in Europe, which is, I think, probably where most people minds go first, but also in the Asia Pacific. Yeah, well, right now there's a meeting that will happen starting next week, Canada and Asia, which was to support and is supporting the Indo-Pacific strategy of the government. And so getting out there and illustrating what we do and promoting what we do, I think, is one way that we can do this centered assignments. Because, you know, again, we have to stop being Canadian and get out there and promote ourselves. You don't mean stop being Canadian. You mean stop being polite and self-effacing and humble and modest, yes. Can I just follow up on something? Please, the first person who, in fact, described Alberta as a Pacific province, right? That we were part of Asia Pacific Peter Lohey, such a far-sighted individual who understood 50 years ago that Alberta's future, yes, North-South. But Alberta's future, looking forward, had to be attached to Asia Pacific. And that's why I think now you actually see this province, but the country more generally, understanding that our future will, in some significant part, we can't define how much at this moment, will lie in Asia Pacific and the relationships we build with the Pacific. And I'm not excluding Africa or Latin America, but I think I've always been struck by the fact, Senator, that Mr. Lohey understood where a big part of our future would lie, long before even national leaders understood that. So then let me ask you this, after years of very cool relations with China and India, which were cool for a reason, the Carney government seems very keen to rebuild trading ties, and there's lots of potential upside for Alberta and for all of Western Canada. But given some of the painful history of the last few years, how cautious should we be proceeding in rewarming relations with China and India in particular? Is that for me? That's for you. Well, I think you do have to be cautious, and I think you've heard Prime Minister Carney make that very plain. That in fact, we do not desert our values, and he talked about values in his Davos speech. But that in fact, the other thing you talked about, and he talks about a lot, is that he's a pragmatist, and our nation has to be pragmatic. And being a pragmatist does not mean that you forego your principles and your values. And I think in light of what has happened to us because of the irrationality of our largest trading partner, it's important that we figure out how we establish new relationships with China, with India. They're too important to us to not, in fact, have workmen like pragmatic relationships, and making a plane where we disagree. But that should not, and cannot, stand in the way of meaningful trading relationships for our country with various other nations. I think it was Mr. Carney put it well in that, and I will not quote him correctly. But you know what? We have to take the world the way it is, not the way we would like it to be. Right? And that is defines pragmatism. Can I just jump in? Yes, please. Yes, I think that the way of viewing the world is also what Africa is expecting, because so far Africa has been used to be taught what it needs to be, what where has to go. So I think with that new way of thinking international relations, I think that helps Canada have, let's say, a say, and a role in Africa, for example, in Latin America. Because we know what it is like to be a colonized country that people extract resources from. And I think the danger is always when I was a kid, they called them developing countries. We don't say that anymore. But you know, to come to Africa as a partner instead of with this evangelical, you know, missionary mission that we're going to fix them somehow. I think Canada can really step into that void and build a relationship of respect. And that is not only, that should not be limited only in words. That in that sense, I recall that Canada has also released a new, let's say, global strategy for Africa. I think that was done in March 2025. Is the first time that Canada think that we have to behave strategically with Africa. I think a big has started doing that a few years ago, but Canada has been lagging behind. But now we have a new strategy. The next step is to see how, what means, what resources do we put forward to accompany that strategy. This podcast is not supposed to be a bad Albertist, Separatist movement. But in light of all the news of the past few weeks and months, I feel, I mean, Charlie talked about elephants before, but I feel I can't ignore the elephant in the room. In this time of global crisis, how important is it for Alberta to act as a part of a United Canada? And how worried should we be about American threats veiled and not so veiled to leverage Alberta separatism as a wedge to divide Canada? Ricky, over you. Well, you know, Senator Simon, before I answer that question, I just want to pick up on Anne's comments, Charlie's comments, because I think there's a tendency, and this is human nature to dwell in the past. So what lessons have we learned? We can't change the past. Let's move forward. And I think that's the kind of attitude that the current government is taking with these traditional partners, these large partners, India, China. And so hopefully we can move forward. And Charlie, I'll tell you one thing when I was at UBC, I worked closely with a muskian First Nation. And the lesson I learned was, and this is the word, co-develop, and start from scratch, because the whole attitude of, here's the playbook, I'm sure you'll like it, was not very well-receptive, you know, and welcomed. But, you know, to your point, to my actual question, yes. To your actual question. You know, this whole notion of separatism and, you know, United States kind of being a bully, right? Really? It's a bully. I think, you know what you do with bullies? You call them. Here's the line. Don't cross it, because if you can see to that position. I don't bang the table at the microphone. Sorry. Sorry. It was you, that me. My colleague Ann was warning us not to bang the table. She got banged. But you have to stand strong. You really do have to stand strong, because it's the typical school yard bully. As soon as you call them out, they back off. But if you give them some string or rope, they'll take as much as you give them. Yeah, Mr. I, I would say in relation to the question. I thought former Prime Minister Stephen Harper this week. I think it went pretty well at the end of his speech when his official portrait was revealed in the House of Commons. And that at the end of his speech, he was so clear about the fact that Canada and all of all Canadians, whether provinces, territories, the government of Canada, cities, that we all must work together. Whether the threat is external or internal. And those were his exact words to continue to ensure Canada is a united country. You can tell that Mr. Harper, obviously a man who understands the history of this nation. It's very proud of this nation. And basically he was telling all of us that our nation is threatened either internally or externally. And we all must cooperate, collaborate, and work together to ensure that this country exists 50 years, 100 years from now. I think we're his exact words. And I think Mr. Harper tells us what this province needs to do. The premier as the elected head of this province that his words were a clarion call to all of us. And his words aren't much different than those of Prime Minister Karney and others. And that means that we can't sit around complacently if you believe Alberta has a place in Canada. Then the separatist threat is real. I think we can discuss how large we think it is. And polls tell you one thing or another thing. I think actual hardcore separatists probably fairly small number of people, maybe 15, 20%. I mean, we all can't sit around and say, oh, that's not a real problem. In fact, it is. And we need to deal with it. We need to acknowledge it. We need to deal with it. And we need to take on board Mr. Harper's words and get out there and fight for a unified Canada. And ensure that Alberta has an appropriate voice and role in that unified Canada. Yeah, you can clap. I just want to talk about that is on that is only that a major record the water use previously sovereignty. I have no problem with any let's say debate on separatism. But it has to be an internal debate. Yes. A Canadian debate or Alberta debate. But when it is not the case, then the threat and the question is, I have even two questions. Is it a symptom of solution? Who are the ganners and who are the losers? So I think and you have to dig into that problem internally and see if it is a symptom. What are the solution? If it's a solution. Why that solution? I think it is an internal debate once more and then we don't have to get other countries involved in that debate. But because you put your finger on it precisely organic Alberta separatism is not a new phenomenon. I mean, I am old enough to remember Gordon Kessler in the Western Canada concept. That's before before either of you were living in Alberta, but it and will remember I remember. But you know, so I mean, there's always been a nativist sentiment that is indigenous if I can put it that way. What frightens me is to see American, asian provocateur, American politicians sticking their orian. And then at the risk of sounding slightly paranoid, I remember what Russia did during the Brexit debate. And I wonder how many right wingers in the United States are being funded, even perhaps even without their knowledge by the Russians. I mean, I think it's interesting. I think it is. I think those who are, let's say, more advance to talk about the issue should also play their role. In the sense that the day to the citizen doesn't know what will happen if tomorrow Alberta decided to quit Canada. If there is a referendum tomorrow and can let's say most of Albertans say, yes, what happened next? Nobody knows. So I think it's a time for that debate to happen too. What worries me though is what if most of Albertans say no, and the United States says, well, we don't recognize that. And we become the Don Bass of, you know, these are the lessons of history that I think about. I lie awake at night and think about the Sudet and Land and the Don Bass. And I don't sleep much when I'm thinking about this. No, you don't get much sleep downstairs. You know, one thing that Ricky touched on, and we're, the four of us don't represent, there is not an indigenous voice on the stage tonight. But when Ricky was speaking, I thought about the fact that Canada has been on such a long journey to get to the point where we can start to begin the hard work of reconciliation, where we have over the course of my political lifetime. So greatly improved our own understanding of the original sins of colonialism in this country. And I don't know to what extent you think that the work we've done to reconcile with First Nations helps us when we go out into the world. And if there's a really important role to be played by Alberta's indigenous communities, by Canada's indigenous communities, in reaching out to indigenous communities around the world. And if that can be an important part of Canada's soft power to, I don't want to say to weaponize, that's the wrong word. But to take full advantage of indigenous knowledge in this country to help us when we are opening to the world and trying to build new kinds of relationships. Senator Simon, I think we saw evidence of this, this week when the indigenous peoples of Canada went to Greenland. And shared their knowledge and their pain and their suffering and their challenges that they saw in Canada. And I'm sure there'll be a reciprocal exchange of information. But to our indigenous people, there are no borders, really. I agree with what Ricky said. I think, so, we are, as you've said, we're on a journey. And nobody should pretend that we're anywhere else but at the beginning of a journey, right? That's what I profoundly believe. We are at the beginning of a journey of reconciliation. But I do believe that indigenous Canadians can share their history and how we have reached this point on the journey, some good, some not so good, but it's a journey. And I think that can help, as you say, Greenland, but can help many countries in Africa, quite truthfully, or South America. There are still too many countries around the world, and maybe America might be an example where, in fact, I'm struck by the fact that when Americans talk about various kinds of development or this or that, it's only been recently that the indigenous voice has been given a place in those discussions. And of course, are starting to pay attention in America to those voices. And as I say, we're not paragons of virtue, but I think we can, Canada's indigenous peoples and their history can help inform and empower indigenous peoples around the world who perhaps are even at an earlier point of their journey. And look, totally pragmatically, all those major projects that the Prime Minister and the Premier and whoever wants to get built, they're not getting built without indigenous participation. They're not getting built without indigenous cooperation, collaboration, and dare I say consent. So indigenous Canadians, I believe, hold an important key to the future prosperity of this nation. Charlie, did you want to have some? Yes. What I can add is, I think we have experienced lots of change in terms of rhetoric, in terms of institutions. I think it's also important that we get, let's say, the bottom, let's say, level of, it's not the bottom level, but the citizen level. It's important that Canada also solves, let's say, social injustices. Because what we've been seeing, it is more institutional, more formal. Even if you have some rituals like, reference that we are all used to. But I think it is time to take stocks and think for the, let's say, the next step. And that has to do with inclusion. And Maclellan, Charlie and Bala, Vicki Yada, thank you again for being with us for this Alberta Unbound Live panel. And I have a round of applause for our extraordinary guests. (Applause) And thank you to everyone in the audience who came to be here with us. You can applaud for yourselves now. (Applause) And tremendous thanks to Vice Provost Tian Tang, to Gavin Palmer, Nadine Riapal, and the entire International Week team for inviting me to host this event and for all their work in putting it together. Alberta Unbound is produced and edited by Dina Dong with Technical Operations this week from Recording Engineers Angus Finley and Chris Yip here at the University of Alberta. And the show is written and presented by me, independent Alberta Senator Paul Assignants. (Applause) If you are here in the audience and this is your first Alberta Unbound experience, know that we have a back catalog of fun and fascinating conversations with Alberta academics, artists, journalists, politicians, and cultural creators, all interrogating different aspects of Alberta identity. And if you're listening to this podcast after the fact, I hope you can pick up on the amazing energy we had here in this room. However and wherever you have found us, thank you for being part of the Alberta Unbound experience. Merci and high high.