This is a Momentum Media Production. Welcome to New Broca, the podcast dedicated to providing insights and inspiration for building a new broking business. Hello and welcome back, I'm your host for today, Annie Kaye. And in this week's episode on New Broca, we're doing things a little bit differently. We're going to be doing a deep dive into something a bit unusual in that we're talking to someone who's been in the broking industry for over a decade, but only recently made the move to working in a broking business herself. Now many listeners will likely know our guest today, Andrea McNaughton, otherwise known as Ange, who was previously the group executive and managing director for LMG Residential, and an instrumental leader in the loan market group's growth between 2015 and 2025, helping shape the direction of the franchise and aggregation group at a national level. But recently, Ange stepped into the broking space herself as the managing director of loan market down in St. Kilda, but not as a writing broker. So in this episode, we're finding out what it is that she does nowadays, how she's made the move from corporate executive roles to the daily pressures of broking, and what it looks like being a non-witing director in a broking model after having been in charge of a major broking group for so long. Thanks for joining me, Ange, how you going? Really well, thank you, Annie, and thanks so much for the invitation. Been a long time, listener, so it feels like a full circle moment, so it's great to be here. Exciting for me to be able to do this podcast with you, and I think to showcase all the myriad ways there are to get into the broking industry. And I love it when we see people who are in corporate roles in the broking industry, actually make the move in, kind of take the step over the fence into broking itself. So, Walker's through, if anyone who's not had the pleasure of meeting you, Ange, I mean, we know you from when you were in the executive position at LMG, but before that, you were at Ray White. Walker's through your kind of career podget history. Well, like lots of people, I didn't know what I wanted to do when I finished school, and unfortunately, I didn't know what I wanted to do when I finished uni. And I ended up saying it, the answer must be in travel. So I moved time to save up to travel, and I ended up getting a job at a local real estate office or almost local, and I was just transitioning from elders' groups to Ray White. And so I was really fortunate at the time that I got into an organisation. I think there was really strong on training. And so I was really able to shadow good performers, get trained up and get into the real estate world. I loved that. And then after I did that for something like 10 years and went through business development roles and leadership roles and became the CEO for Ray White in Victoria, I realized sort of across the fence, as you say, was this loan market business, this finance business sitting there. And I was always really drawn to their knowledge and how they worked, but we didn't do a lot together. Then I ended up following Sam White, who is the director and the White family owning both businesses, obviously, into that model, which was just so similar to what I'd done in real estate in terms of that franchise model with the non-traditional sort of no boundaries, no territories, and really able to grow a really big business. So I really loved that, and I loved my time there. And I quickly found that in real estate, it could be really difficult to find somebody who's looking to sell. But in lending, I think there's always somebody with debt, you know, it's a lot easier to find. And I just really loved that value proposition of the broker. I think a lot more than I did the real estate proposition. I felt like it's more cognitive challenge. I think I guess if that's the first statement around writing loans as opposed to selling houses, I loved selling houses. I've never actually written a loan, which obviously we'll get to, but I found the model of growing the business, growing a big team, leading people, making people productive, enjoyed that challenge. And I think the proposition of the broker being out of genuinely help customers throughout their lifetime was a very rewarding one. So that's how I started in the loan market side of the business. Yeah. And of course you were in the corporate head office, really helping grow LMG, and went through a really interesting time as well, you know, with PCF acquisition, punchwise fast acquisition, having, you know, building the loan market brand out, kind of having the different models. When you look at like over your kind of career at the loan market grip at LMG, what kind of things were you doing then? Like when you were like, you know, the LMG executive residential, what exactly did that involve? Yes. Yeah. That was my last role, just before I left. So that was really around looking at the business model and trying to drive differentiation between what a broker or a business owner wants and then what they get. So looking at those different models of support, I guess, around aggregation, when I was managing director for loan market, that model was something we lived in, breathe, and we're always an aggregator, but we were sort of first and foremost a business builder, if you like. And that was very similar to that ray white model. Whereas aggregation, I wasn't aware that, you know, there's so many other options under an aggregator around what role you want that aggregated a play. Some people want them to be hands on and really help around lead generation and growing your business. And others see the more as almost a clearinghouse for commissions. And of course you've got specialist aggregators on top of that. So when I was across the executive role for residential, that was really about driving revenue from the growth of all of the residential lines at the group wrote how we would diversify that revenue, how we would continue to grow that revenue. And what business model did we really want to try and disrupt and grow with across those different brands? Yeah. So that was really my role then. And so I mean, a lot of great experience and expertise to bring to your common role where you're now working in an actual loan market franchise. So it's down in St. Kildred and Melbourne. How did this journey come about? Well, we had a very big acquisition with the shift obviously to LMG, the aggregator. And that was sort of in full flight. We were running pretty hard and that was a terrific challenge. And then right before our first growth summit, which was literally the first event that was bringing the whole team together. Unfortunately, I got diagnosed with blood cancer. And that was a massive shock and out of the blue, like it is for so many people. And I think it was sort of sprinting pretty hard. It was the middle of November 2023 and took them a month to diagnose me. So I sort of felt like a hit a brick wall very hard. Sam, of course, somebody I've worked with for 20 years and the executive team were terrific support. And I had slightly a lot of members of the whole LMG group. But those things take time to work through. You don't know how you're going to come through treatment. You don't know how you're going to respond. And for me, I flew through the treatment, which was sort of a six to eight treatment plan before a stem cell transplant. But it left me with a lot of time. I couldn't travel during that period. And I was very hands on in my previous role. So I studied. I went back to uni and looked at leading digital transformation, which was interesting and tried to keep myself busy and thought, made my list about extreme clarity. What am I going to do differently when I get back to being awesome? And I really missed work and missed all the people and missed the challenge and the growth and the culture of being part of the team. I'm married to a sheet farmer. So we're quite isolated on a rural property, which is if nice for wellbeing and for getting well, getting back to nature when you're not well. But it's also pretty isolating and lonely, I think, for somebody who's used to being around so many people and so many great people. So that was when I was really clear and thought, my son's getting to a certain age, my daughter's boarding school, what do I want to do with this next piece? I always thought about being a business owner, even at Raywide. I looked at a couple of opportunities. And I thought I was 48 at the time. If I don't do it now, I won't do it. So I thought, I'll buy the bullet. I've seen how these, you know, as you say into so many great businesses and so many different models, I want to be a broker. So that led me to choosing my model. And I started being a loan market broker from the first of July last year. I called my entity, the business entity, the broker illusion trading is just loan market because I really wanted a broad digital model. So I can be a national brand and also for a local opportunity. But I quickly discovered I was going to be a pretty poor broker because I just didn't know enough. A lot of my friends were self employed and they were coming to me saying, hey, which is I do about this? And I had absolutely no idea in terms of, you know, the right qualifying questions. Even, you know, I have lots of people saying, look, just call me Anginthay, what would you do in a scenario like this? But it was literally like hammered and nail stuff and I thought, this is just going to take me way too long to get out. So I used to leading and running a big business. I think I know how to do that. I know how to grow. I need to back myself in and do that. And so I said about, you know, some really great business that's coming onto the market with the first wave of brokers retiring and looking at succession. And I thought, what are the ones where I resonate with the values and which ones do I know well and their teens and their culture? And yeah, what are the opportunities that would suit me? And really that tell me how it got started. So ended up as a purchasing loan market, loan market razor as it's known internally, mostly internally from Toby Edmunds, who has been a member of the loan market group for 18 years in a broker. And so now we have 27 people in that team with 12 brokers and I've just finished our first month as the business owner in March. So yeah, it's been a while right. It's been great. There's a lot to unpack there. So thank you, Anginthay. For giving us that journey. And so great to see you, you know, back on tools again. And I'm so glad that you've kind of gone through that journey and managed to come out the other side and hopefully touch with things, continue that way for you. But as you say, I think it's really interesting hearing you could talk about, you know, quite honestly, you know, friendly about broken is not all that people think it is. And I think so often in our new broker academy, whenever we talk to new brokers, people come into the industry and they think it's one thing and they start doing it and go, what on earth is this? It's, you know, not what the training necessarily prepared me for. It's a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. And it's a lot more time consuming before you get, you know, paid. So I think it's really refreshing to hear you kind of be like, you know, what I started trying to do that and then realizing it's not my strength and not what I was wanting to do quickly. So moving to actually do more of the kind of the business operations side, which is what you're doing now at Lone Market, razor, certain sick, guilty. So I think that's really great to hear. And I think that's such a perfect example of not everyone in this industry needs to be alone right.
can be a low-none man, you can be someone who's doing administration, you can be doing something that is operations, you can be doing managing director type stuff, which is what you're doing now. So what exactly does that entail? So for me, coming into an established existing team raised at about 1500 lines a year. So really successful business. So I'm conscious of the contractors that are in that are broke, is that it's pretty much running a business, we're in a business leveraging the support, you know, it's a very good team there in place. So I've been very sort of gently, would you like coaching, would you not like coaching, what do you want help with? What is your strategy? What's your plan within the plan? So an average week for me looks like my one-on-ones, which are either half an hour or an hour depending on what the team would like, really coaching them around their plan. Look like what are your goals? Are they high enough? How are you going to get their support do you need? That part of it is just a joy, really. I've always done that role with small business owners, I suppose. So doing that with your own team is great. The bigger piece that I'm spending a lot more time on right now is really implementing AI, looking at how and where we put that into the process. And that's been a lot of fun doing that from the ground up with the team. I learned a lot with Michael Zableberg when he was at Loan Market as Lean Six Sigma. And I think it's put us in a really good spot. I've managed to poach back a bit of our talent to help me really redesign those journeys, which then it's really delighting the team because they can see I'm trying to take the manual out. It's we're going to make it a more frictional way of running loans, which is what everybody wants. So being really close to the customer and close to the people doing it really helps them in fermentation. And thirdly, I'm spending a lot of time with the referral. I've loved being back out there with agents, which was something I used to really doing and obviously, I'm based on really well. So we just launched Love Your Landlord in Victoria. It is horrific time to be a property owner and investor. So it's been really warmly received for a lot of ray-white agencies and non-ray-white. I mean, principles that have that asset in their rent role that want to offer a service that makes sure landlords can reduce their costs, particularly with interest rates rising. And the budget being hand-gun in May, we just don't know what that looks like around negative gear in capital gains tax. So being able to offer a really positive, proactive service with a broken team that already has scale is just awesome to be out there. In the past, when I've gone to referrals, it could be quite hard as an aggregator or a franchise, or because you're trying to encourage an influence and cajole for a small percentage, as opposed to being a direct owner, I can guarantee the experience that they're going to get. So that's really how I'm spending my wake at the moment, which has been fun. And the thing is really interesting to see this, because I think particularly for a lot of brokers that start out, often they'll be a sole trader, then they might hire one or two offshore, onshore support staff part-time, then they bring in on full-time people. And then they start going, oh my goodness, I'm now a natural manager and HR person. And I'm having to do all this work, and I don't have time to also do the loan writing. And so we often see in the scaling process, lots of brokers thinking, what do I do now, and how do I build this business? And for so many people, it's going, well, actually, I need to bring in someone just to head up the operations, just to do the continuous improvement work, because I'm not able to as a writing broker. Do you think it's feasible for people to do everything, or do you think it's a cap at where you get just certain size, and you can't do it anymore? I think that's right. I think where is that cap, and what is that blueprint? I think it is pretty impossible to be the business owner that I bought from. He's going to write 200 million this year. He's got a team of 27 people who are all producing as well. It is just too much. And we're sort of saying, why don't you diversify? And why don't you implement AI? And why don't you go into commercial? And you know, you could be client-based. The phone does ring at this size. I had the client go with it today, which is very rusty and hilarious. So it is a real art form and science. And you just cannot, I mean, that was one of the reasons that Toby looked at selling. You just cannot do more, you know, this business is literally bursting at the seams. And I would call myself probably the head of sales in terms of the current role, in terms of how that looks. You know, I don't have an official title or anything. But my responsibility, I think, is to make the brokers that are there, more productive, make the business more profitable, and to help push the growth. I mean, I'm so fortunate Toby wants to stay on. So, you know, there's an established culture there, and he's very much the leader of that and a big producer. So we know it's around who else do we want to bring in, and who else wants to catch, you know, and chase down that growth. This makes excellent performers in there. So, yeah, just, I have the capacity, as you say, and really the obligation as an on-riding director, because I'm not bringing in any revenue from writing loans to go out and look at implementing those other services, like convincing, like buyers advocacy, like bringing in house specialists, like commercial and asset, etc. I don't know how you can possibly do it when you're writing loans. And the client is constantly pulling you back into the far. And, you know, he's got an excellent team, and they do a really great job. But it is just an intense, you know, full-on, kaper, trying to upskill at the same time, or learn new skills is really difficult. So, yeah, I do think you're right. I think this model of non-riding and this consolidation across the industry will be that result. There's only so much growth you can push with one, you know, a one-man sort of model, if you like. Yeah, and I think this is something that, you know, we talk about a lot with our events on the advice, obviously, but a business summit. This is focused around scaling. And we actually had a really interesting question when we went to Queensland, where someone put their hand up and we were like, "Is it okay if I don't want to grow? I'm happy where I am." And I was like, the whole point of this life is to be happy. If you're happy, keep doing what you're doing. Like, don't, we're not telling you you have to scale. But if you want to, this is how you might be able to do it. And of course, it's still inspiration. You can pull from so many different speakers anyway, regardless of whether it's about scaling or if it's just generally about how you run your business. But I thought it was such an interesting point. But I've been like, "Do I have to? 'Cause I'm good." So, never know. You definitely don't have to. I think, and it's the same building your team. Not everybody wants to, you know, work a thousand hours a week or run a hundred miles an hour. I think are they happily achieving what they want? And are they, I do think brokers miss how much they, more they can write more easily? Because I think the old model is a burnout model. If it's just putting on more, on the more, on the more. And you're taking on salaries and constraints and overhead and stress. That's why I think a lot of brokers do say I'm happy where I am because you get your trail to a position that it's paying your liabilities, your mortgage, your school fees. I get it. And people say that's a nice. I think that piece that I've been enjoying about redesigning using some really cool new, you know, tech and other, even just making simple changes. I agree. If you don't make it easier for people to write more than they will write less. I agree with that. All the same, I should say. Yeah. And when you just sort of mentioned as well about, you know, when you kind of started breaking your bit like, actually, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. It's not my strong point. Was there anything like specific about, like, did you ever actually settle alone? No, I didn't even launch one. I started getting my creditations with the lenders. And I mean, this is sort of embarrassing to a bit. But I started going, they don't actually want me to flog their credit cards, do they? Yeah. So I thought, wow, like because in my mind, you know, being really frank, customer acquisition is everything. It's still key in whatever model you're in. I think AI, tech, whatever industry. And so I am surprised still, after all my years, since 2015 being in the industry, that the value of that broker proposition and the value of working with the broker, it's probably still not really well understood. And I thought, you know, brokers are literally providing this amazing services measured by NPS and, you know, the lack of journal books, etc. I think I can build a really exciting business by attracting those people that are great at looking after customers. But to do that, I think you need to have great knowledge. I think you need to be really confident. I think you need to be great with clients, which a lot of people are. It was just going to take me way too long. And I think, like you were alluding to before, there's this constant challenge of this chicken and egg in the industry. Should I put on staff that will help me write more volume? Do I have more volume? But then I disappoint the client or the refer-- it just never ends. And as you said, Annie, unfortunately, you end up being like an accidental leader because you have to hire staff just to manage what you've got. And then if for any reason that staff member leaves you, I've seen brokers take that really personally. It's a massive hit, like a clawback. So I think having the mindset and the resilience, we're already dealing with so many clients, so many lenders and so many issues a lot of the time. It's really difficult also then trying to scale a business in the background. So I do, yeah. I think any new broker starting now, and we spoke a lot about this actually, with people like Kristi Dunnfear and Sarah Thompson and Appaleding Ladies' Conference is being in an office where you're surrounded by a lot of scenarios. If you start on your own or in a very, very small team with one person, I just don't think you're going to get the breadth of experience around those scenarios to understand how to help the client. And I think nobody wants to let down the client. I think that's-- everybody's great big fear. You know, that's why they look for certainty for lenders. So getting over that fear is difficult and takes time. And I just-- I didn't want to spend the time. And I felt like I didn't have the time. I thought, I know I saw some great brokers. I'll go and get the brokers. Yeah. And so you mentioned that about, you know, kind of being surprised at the accreditation process and lenders still kind of being like, we want you to increase share of wallet or whatever it may be. Is there anything else that surprised you along the way? Where you were like, this is not what I thought it was after, ten years of working in the broken industry and kind of being in the thick of it? I probably-- I should have had more empathy about when I was always challenging them and pushing them around. Why aren't you diversifying? Why haven't you recruited this person? Why haven't you run this event? Why aren't you doing this? Just so-- then the capacity is just not there. They're highly productive individuals. And I think particularly since COVID, I saw the volumes that came out of that. And we scrambled quickly to try to introduce the FUT broker force, which was offshore support and all those things. But it was just exhausted. And as a company, you're just pushing growth, because we were always ambitious. And that was our model. It's as a percentage based model, you know, you're really partnering around. We've got to keep driving that growth. And I have made a few apologies around, you know,
always sort of pushing for more. And yeah, I just, I wasn't comfortable, I suppose, just not knowing what you're talking about. The people who are coming to you at a really crucial moment of their life are and refinancing their business. I mean, I've always referred to brokers, so I know plenty of good commercial brokers and and crazy brokers, etc. But I'm supposed to be creating a living out of this. I can't just live off referral fees. So I thought this model is not going to work for me. Yeah, we're going to take a quick break out and when we come back I'd like to talk to you about some of the things you've been doing to actually improve productivity, you kind of touch on them some of the things there, kind of tools and tech you're using, what you think about AI in the breaking industry and we'll get into that just after this message. Are you a new to industry broker looking to take your career to the next level? Want to capture larger volumes and succeed in a competitive marketplace? Don't miss out on the advisor's new broker academy 2026, coming soon to Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney. This event is designed to give you the knowledge you need to push boundaries and thrive in the world of broken and the best part, it's completely free to attend. With top industry specialists and thought leaders guiding the sessions, you'll gain crucial insights and market intelligence to become the go-to trusted broker for your clients. Don't miss your chance to be in the room with local real estate agents giving you an incredible opportunity to build new relationships and boost your referral initiatives. Although free spaces are limited and filling up fast, so secure your seat now before it's too late. Register for free at newbrokeracademy.com.au and join the top focus of tomorrow. So, Andrew, you were saying about how you've been working with the team. You've got one of the ones every weekend as big teams, so they'll take a quite a while to get through as well, not just the one of ones, but then I'm doing all the admin around it. But of course, looking at things like process, like continuous improvement, can you give me an idea of what sort of things you've been doing recently, how you're actually improving incrementally? Yeah, it's a great question. So the last month my model's already changed and shifted. So when I first came in, my business plan was I was really specific about who I'd acquire. Once I realized I couldn't write loans, but right I need to acquire. And then coming in, I thought if I recruit, retain and develop the credit analyst and the client service manager, the CSM, those two things, if I can solve that pain point for the majority of business owners or good brokers, they'll join me. So that became sort of my model, which if you look at a large writing broker, they've got quite a big team behind them. Then I started looking at AI and obviously the digital transformation that's happening sort of throughout the industry, thinking, well, you know, you can see AI is probably going to replace the knowledge piece, which is always dreamy and also intimidated me. This enormous amount of knowledge that you need to have. And I still think you need to have that and you need to have people that understand the lending process and understand the different product and able to give clients at the end of the day confidence that this is not just the right loan for them, but the best loan for them under that best interest duty, which I love. So that sort of has shifted my model a little bit in the last month to how do I provide the most seamless, frictionless loan experience so that the credit analysts and the client service managers, whose roles are all evolving, same as offshore are going to be rewarded and challenged and involved in that process. Are they going to be, you know, your future brokers really that are in house back to more sort of that customer service account management piece because you know, the reality is I bought a large book. We've got a lot of clients without even going to refurras. So how do we go back and offer that really proactive service that's seamless and not as full of pain points as it is today. A lot of people are sort of saying, well, AI, you know, it's got a replace sort of offshore processing, et cetera. So for us, yes, the tech that we've been looking at together with loan market is around it already renaming and relabeled documents, for example. So I think what I'm excited about is not necessarily not needing an offshore team, but giving everybody in the team will meaningful work, doing jobs like renaming documents, I mean, even getting a commercial loan recently to buy this business, there's not even online forms. Like there's a long way to go in this lending process. And so for me, I've enjoyed because I have capacity, if we went back and you start the, you know, the roots cause analysis, you start the pain points, it's everything I heard 10 years ago. It literally working with polyhorns, robson, who I worked closely with Michael Zabelberg, all of the sessions that we're doing in Kaizan, they're all very similar challenges with enough flex that people want to run their businesses differently. But this has really given me the confidence at solving the repetitive, you know, the work that AI has really designed to do is just going to free up really good people to be able to give confidence to more customers. And I think that's a great model. Something perhaps controversial, I'm not sure, but the old way, even the old, you know, loan market way of it's so hard to get established, you know, you bleed out in the street, you work so hard to get your first deals and to build that referral network. I just think that's going to be too difficult going forwards. My way will be to sort of try to bring through a graduate program for, you know, banking and finance students, which is hard our first fund and really bring them into the team, introduce them through that back book piece because they're still studying so you don't want any time dependent work, get them booking appointments, get them understanding how much value there is in an existing client and then progress there through the model, you know, around that client service manager, credit analyst Broker, but it's not a broker that's out having to fund clients, if that makes sense. They can if they want to, but taking two years, three years or 18 years to get a business to where you want to be, I just think it's too difficult. And we broker share it sort of 80% I think it's harder now. So if my model can provide appointments with clients that, you know, love what a broker does, you know, that's sort of where I'm going now around making sure the system, you know, whether that's tech, whether that's systems, whether that people make it better for the, the people doing the processing, I think that helps me then secure a steady chain of support staff, which is what is so hard for business owners to hire and to retain. To retain. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of good support staff then want to become a broker. How do you retain them? All of that sort of stuff. So that's sort of the shift in my model, I guess, being an on-riding director. I need to look at it differently. And I think I've always enjoyed working with Brokers who want to work with referers. Not all Brokers do. And that's fine too. So I can add a lot of value to those guys. And then so scaling that piece is where I'm busy. And then looking at that right, what other services add value to our core. And for us, that will be obviously convincing, you know, so I can really go and spearhead that and start to pat out that revenue a bit and bring in in-house specialists. But most importantly, give that real career path, I think, to your back end team that I don't think it'll be obliterated by AI. I think it will free them up to be more proactive with customers. And I think they'll enjoy that, to be honest. And that's where I'm going. You mentioned there about some of the tech and sort of systems that you're using already, like the one that's sort of renaming documents. What is that? Is that something that low market has proprietary? Is that a tool that's sort of off-ish shelf? I mean, it is. Yeah, there's quite a few tools around now that will do that. I know quickly pro, obviously, are launching that as well. Yes, through the MyCRM, yep, through the roadmap that the LMG tech team have as well. But there are a lot of other options around and constantly getting, you know, approached by those. And I think to your point, you just got to be nimble because what was cutting edge last month is now almost obsolete. So it's changing and moving. And that's why I think the important piece is not the tech, but the design, the process design. And that is the piece that you need to put a lot of time into, which is difficult. Like as a business owner, writing loans and leading a team, how are you going to get back and really understand the pain points of every team member in a large business? It's very hard to do that without capacity. And I think that's the experience I can take out of those corporate roles of when we did that to see the business owner is very reliant on the people that are closest to the customer. And that's always the space that I enjoyed. But I've never been as close as the people who are processing the loans. So a lot of business owners now don't even know how to log into my through M and that's a good thing. But have you got the right people and are you empowering them around making the change to the process that's going to let you leverage AI because AI without process design will be disaster. And I think this is again something that we've been talking a lot about, a lot, even in better business, you know, this year, the AI session with Adam Franklin, he's talks probably like half of the session on like the AI tools and prompts he can be using. But then he's a bit like, but once you've done that, like the second half of the session is, what are you going to do with that extra time? Because, you know, it's one thing. Having all this stuff, you're not just going to go swan off to a beach. Like, you might want to for a little bit the first time around you get a couple of hours off work. But, you know, long term, it's like, well, you the second element of this has been like, where are you putting that extra time? Where are you putting that extra effort to continue delighting your customers? And so many people, I think it is in the client-facing work or in improving client journey or in, you know, maybe kind of looking at building a business. So actually having that sort of second element side of it being like, yes, we're embracing tech, but also for what gained. Yeah, 100%. What are you putting that investment in? A bit. It will help you take cost out for sure. But what are you able to do with that in terms of time and money? And that's the piece I need. I think you need, you know, in these low margins and businesses, you need to realise that gain. And then as you say, how do you use that most effectively? And I think that comes down to strategy, which is a lot of conversations I have each week with the guys running a business, who are the customers that you're not going to serve? You know, where is your area of influence? It's pretty hard to define these days if you're just available to anyone anywhere at any time. And I don't think that model works well enough. It'll work, but it's so difficult and it's very painful. Yeah. So when you look at then kind of managing the workload and running an office, so we've talked a little bit about kind of what you're all week looks like. Is there anything that you kind of would, that you've learned in the last months where you're like this is actually a process.
assessment improvement that can help anyone with operational actions. Yes. And I think something that's been reinforced with probably doesn't sound like is that all the answers are already in the room in this team because it's such a quality team and it is. I mean, it's one of the leading businesses. Like I'm not just saying that when you've got good people, the answers are in the room. How do you create space and the opportunity for that to bubble up filter through and empower that? And that can be in any business. So I think that's been really comforting to be honest because coming in, you know, from the outside into an established business, how do you sort of get underneath those layers? And I think keeping things simple and not having too many layers and not having that hierarchy is really such an asset and such an easier way to leverage and implement change. Because it's literally is ground up, you know, and those people have such incredible insights that when they used to doing something the same way, they don't actually realize that. So fresh eyes, you know, good teamwork, all those fundamentals, I think, being curious about how we can do it differently. What do we want to do? So what are we doing? Well, what do we want to change? And not being too, um, too precious around any of that. I think it is really exciting and and a bit of fun too. Yeah. Well, I think again, there's something that we're seeing quite a lot of his brokers kind of hiring, you know, mentors or coaches because they are, like saying, I need that second part of eyes, but I maybe cardboard someone full time to do their. So just sort of having someone to come in and be like, what can I do better? I have a jab me in the eye meeting once a month. They'd say, just tell me anything, just go for it, just get it over, you know, it's an hour and that makes people can tell you something they're really worried about, you know, like, why aren't you going hard enough or why did you do that? Or why didn't you do that? And I think that's great too. Documenting processes, you need someone very detail oriented. And that's where, you know, you've got to hire the right people for this work. In addition, those people have to be empowered because, you know, you're navigating through different personalities that might feel that you're, you know, questioning how they do things. Some people love that, not everyone does. So it's a really, yeah, it's a really interesting and exciting time, I think the first wave of broken's been a massive success. I reckon the second wave is going to be even better, which, you know, a lot of people say, go, well, how can it get past, you know, 80% but the client base is there now. The client base is sitting with all these four business owners across Australia. How we harness that unlock that leverage that, you know, it's up to the break it all lose it really. So I think it's an exciting time. That's actually a good framing is that I think a lot of the time, you know, we can be a bit complacent as an industry being like, one, three quarters of people users, but actually it's been like, make sure that doesn't drop. Like, how do you retain that? And now you've got those customers and you've got a strong business or you've started a business like making sure you kind of retain that. And that's why I think at the last few years, we've seen a lot of post-settlement care work coming in as well, you know, not just because of the vast interest duty requirement, but also I think because so many people were like rates of tennis so quickly, we want to need to make sure on a good rate. And if we aren't, then we run the risk of clawbacks or, you know, so on moving on. Do you do a lot of work on the post-settlement side of things? And kind of, you see that? Well, for me, when you buy a business, the valuation is really determined around the, you know, the event number or the trial. And really the piece that's portable is that book. So being close to that book is a necessity because that's ensuring the loan that I've taken, you know, against the business that I bought. So that for me is where we're designing the whole new broker world. And because it's not time dependent like a refinance or someone going to auction, I can offer these part-time roles to these graduates who can come in and we can test live through shadowing. Is this someone who's going to make a really big part of the team? If we can go to those existing clients really proactively and understand their liabilities today, where they're at, what they want to achieve, the full picture of their goals and proactively book an appointment and say, you know, he's we're at, we can do XYZ. That doesn't happen today a lot. I know brokers try and reprise and refinance and look after their books, but to really take it to the next level and to introduce new services and to put those customers in a secure portal where they're able to be working with the team they've always known. I think that's the game changer for the value of the book as well for a lot of brokers who are looking at getting out more than just relying on that good experience that they had and that they value and they do come back. They don't have a reason not to come back. Everyone's doing sort of the basic level of automated email and and repressing, but how do you turn that into a really sort of a raving fan, you know, that customer advocacy piece because you know so much about them and you're able to go to them in a timely way and say, "Annie, I think this is an even better solution for you now." That to me is the holy grail and I know open banking and those things will make that a lot easier. Yeah. We don't want to wait for that. We're going to do as much work around that as we can until it happens. And to me, that's my strategy for my next wave of brokers because I love the business that I've bought and the team that are in it, but I know from experience like people will leave and it will hurt, you know, and if you're not working on that pipeline of your next person who's joining you or your next strategy to grow that revenue, it can really do you row. You particularly around your confidence, I think. So being super proactive on that piece for me, especially given that the purchase point is kind of not an option. You've talked to there a bit about the retention. I'm sure many brokers listen to this, they'll be like, "Guess it's such a heart like someone leaves or it's such a heart, they're trying to find someone that you kind of gel with." But obviously then keeping them is sort of, you know, really important. So how do you empower your staff to feel like they want to stay? Is it about culture? Is it about remuneration? Is it about incentives? Like how do you actually try and protect your staff base? I think it's about understanding the contribution they make. You know that thing about nobody likes to feel like they're anonymous. So are they being recognised for the work that they're doing today? How are they contributing whichever role they're into the success of the business? Is that clear? Are we celebrating that? You know, even simple things like your monthly rap, you know, what's the contribution that they're making and is that visible to everybody? And then secondly, what is it that they want? What growth are they on? You know, the personal development plans for the people in your team. If we're not attuned to what our people want, then I think that's the first risk. So for me, it's making sure they know this is a place where we value earning and learning. Anybody that wants to contribute more, you know, anybody that wants to can grow, anybody that wants to learn can rely on that next career on being able to earn more and get the results that they want. Not everybody, like you say, wants a big career, but a lot of people do. And as long as that challenge is there for them, you know, a lot of guys are trying to move lifestyle changes. They're having babies, you know, they're wanting more flexibility, moving to other parts of the country, et cetera. All of that's pretty easy to accommodate. It's the personal connection with the person in your team. Do you understand what it is they want and are you able to deliver it? And for me, I'm really committed to that because I know that engine room, that back office of good support star is what will continue to attract and retain terrific brokers in the business. That is the harder piece to duplicate, to be honest, than to find brokers that want to write loans. The harder part is to make sure that engine is as efficient and as smart as it can be because they are dealing with your customer often more so than the broker. Is there anything that you're seeing not just from, you know, the low market broken business that you're, that you're now running, but generally in the market? Is there anything that you're seeing that you're like, who wish brokers knew about there? So I wish that there was something that they were doing that they're not. I think that it's still very much a lot of brokers are ex-baggers. And I've seen that in the team, and it's these how to sell themselves to referers to clients. I think, you know, you do a lot of great conferences that whole piece around a customer interview, taking that customer off the table before you provided the advice, you know, really looking at that skills that are around being confident around the value that they offer. I notice a lot of trepidation around putting yourself out there to tell people how you can help them and being confident about that. And I'm talking about really experienced good operators. They're not necessarily comfortable really selling. It is probably the word that we're looking for. So I think not selling themselves to prospective staff, you know, not selling themselves to prospective clients, not selling self to prospective referers, the service, the proposition of a broker is so powerful. I think that's a bit that's overlooked. I do have spoken of a couple of lender events in my time and I do wonder if they understand what a broker actually does. It's not a, you know, because I always ask you, is it just about right? Well, no, it's about the customer's plan. It's their overall goals and objectives rates, sort of later. But I remember coming in from real estate, I was the biggest, you know, offender saying, oh, it's just about right. Surely it's just about right. You just get the best rate. And they're like rates kind of not got a lot to do with it at the end of the day. So I think if brokers could see that together as a force, you know, the very fraction industry, very small business owners and really look at the bigger picture and the advocacy that they need at the table being small business owners coming together as an industry and understanding the value collectively. As you say, we keep talking about the 77.5% of the 80 cent broker share, leveraging that like a moat, you know, asking lenders to pay brokers who submit great deals more than those that don't because the cost of a deal with no rework is not the same as the cost of a deal with plenty of rework, yet all brokers get paid the same. So I think how do you get smarter around getting paid for what we do really well? And that can only be through working together. I know, you know, there's lots of egos in every industry and all of that. But at the end of the day, the proposition of the broker is a terrific one, genuinely helping people achieve more is how I say it. And I think without them, you know, it's pretty, it's pretty dire out there in terms of a lack of customer service, you know, trust in large institutions. It's never been so low trusted individuals who's never been so high. You know, so, you know, those trusted professionals. So I think which the brokers could be better around
one voice I suppose in terms of what they bring to the table for lenders and for industry and for customers. I think we're probably missing an opportunity there. Awesome. Some great suggestions there as well and to think as well about the remuneration model too. We're going to take a break here. We come back and I'd like to talk to you about your plans offer, the overhead and into the future. What sort of things do you do to unwind and de-stress and your advice when you broke us just starting out? We'll get into that just after this message. [Music] So, and you were talking there about, you know, the kind of how you already changed some of the things that you've been doing the last few months in this new business. What do you have planned for the rest of the year? Like, where do you think you'll be at the end of 2026? It's such a great question. I'm really trying to test if everything I assumed before I came into the business because buying the business to month, you know, lots of due diligence and back and forth in cash, lo and lenders, etc. So, testing if those assumptions are right, you know, is what I understand to be. And then to be honest, this whole ridiculous notion that all brokers get paid the same, I need to get into markets that are underrepresented or have big alone sizes is how I'm seeing it because, you know, if being in that role we changed the customer numbers because, you know, some brokers write 300, look after 300 customers a year like Sam Arthur's down at 1,292 or something. How is that fair, you know, to then go into somewhere like, no offense, Pimmy, you know, double bay? So, you sort of think, wow, that workload. So, I need to look at those markets where's the biggest opportunity for growth, I think for our team. That's why I love that sort of national model, national brand, no territories, they are to help a customer anywhere. So, I think that's definitely on the radar. I'd love to think that we're open beyond just Sync Hilda Road Melbourne would probably be my first one. Secondly, I really need to bring in House and specialist skill sets around commercial lending and asset finance, probably obvious ones. And thirdly, I think the services that add the most value to the core, I think running in House Convancing and running a great process that isn't dated, shall we say, and isn't clunky, frictionless with some of the work that we're doing around the tech piece. I can see how we can bolt that on pretty beautifully, pretty seamlessly. So, that also adds a lot of value to our referers. So, I'm looking forward to really driving that piece, which I think gives me something to put my teeth into and I'm not sort of annoying and pestering the team too much of it, already doing a lot very well. And it's more of a tweak than a transformation. So, yeah, make sure I'm giving them the space to do the work. Yeah. And then referral piece, I think, is also really interesting. Like, when you're just starting out, so many brokers are like, how do I get my own referral partners? Because they already have broke partners, they already know someone, they don't really want to be harassed by me and probably 20 other brokers who are looking for a referral partner. What would you advise them to do if they're looking at getting, you know, convey it so a buyer's agent or real estate agent on board? I think, look at your strategy, do you really want it? Is my first question. What have you done to try? Oh, I looked on the website, said they work with a broker. Have you called them? Try. Okay. Don't email them. Everybody emails and says, "Do you need my feedback?" Shock. You know, brokers get more emails than anyone we know in agents. Have you referred them a praise law and opportunity? Have you gone to, if you're talking about an agent or an accountant, etc. Have you gone to an open for inspection? Have you gone to any of their options? Have you read any of their content? How are you standing out? You know, why should they work with you? And there's probably very good reasons. But I think we automatically assume they're already working with somebody, even when they're not, because I've had these conversations with so many people over the years. And then really pick it, think about your model. You've someone who's better suited to working as property managers. Are you somebody that wants to be available on the phone all the time? Are you happy to be available on weekends and after hours? Lots of brokers don't want them. I think they're clever that they design their model not to be reliant on those referers if they don't want that kind of intensity. So they have a different strategy about working other referral sources or existing clients. But I think right now there's a massive opportunity to work with agents and property managers, you know, given the market and the interest rate rises. And I think really helping them understand what the change in rates means for buyers. What does it mean for sellers? I've gone with lots of brokers into sales meetings and they talk about how they're, you know, setting the BBS wise swap rate. I'm like, what are you talking about? Talk about something that adds value to the salespeople. Talk about, you know, how you've got a loan approved and it meant the buyer was able to offer X and it got the deal done. Show them that a buyer, you know, with a million dollars to spend is different depending on the lender you're with, you know, break down the scenario. And I think not take yourself too seriously would be my biggest one. But it's hard because they're so nervous about I really need this opportunity. But I don't see a lot of effort if I'm honest. So send me some one of email is not effort. I don't think that would be my real crack would be my first taste of the life. And the other thing I want to ask you about is obviously you mentioned about, you know, how it can be a kind of industry where people just work really long hours. And I think increasingly, you know, last five years, I think particularly we've seen broken really change both compliance but also professionalisation. And people just now working really, really long hours. So a lot of what we do here at the advisor is sort of, you know, talking to people and being like, just remember to put in guardrails to have a life basically at the end of the day and don't do it with at the expense of your own well-being. And so often we kind of do this wellness Wednesday piece on social media where we ask people what they do to unwind and de-stress really as a weekly reminder to people to unwind and de-stress plus because I'm just nosy and I want to know everyone's hobbies are. So if you think about, you know, your experience in the broken industry generally, I mean, there is a lot of kind of concerns about people burning out and people working too hard. What do you think brokers should be doing to decompress after like, you know, a kind of a stress of conversation or if something's gone wrong with alone? I think it's a great question. I'm very structured around the week. I always have been around what's in my calendar is what we're doing. I think part of the challenge of the broken industry is the freedom. There is no end time. So you can just morph into huge hours as you say. So for me, I've designed the week around golf, you know, like a bloke. So Wednesday mornings is golf. I think empower yourself earlier to be strict on what are the things that are going to de-stress and give you that time off. So for me, I decided, you know, I was somebody who worked incredibly hard and long hours and loved that and enjoyed that and sort of being able to do nothing. You know, there's nothing worse than going on a holiday when you don't need one. By the way, if you've sort of ever done that. So for me with gardening, you know, when can I get that in? It's funny how nature really does help that healing, that exhale, that pace and then golf because you can't actually be uptight paying golf. It's actually very annoying. It's counter-intuitive. You have to be all sort of, you know, Lucy Goosey and get your shoulders going. You can't be uptight paying golf. So I think after nine holes of golf in the middle of your week, when you're back to dealing with people at issues, you're in a better frame of mind. And I think that helps that energy piece, which is really then makes you feel better because it's also if you're stressed and you're taking it out on people, you're just feeling worse and the cycles, you know, just getting worse and worse. Whereas if you can make sure at least that time is carved out in the week. For me, it has to be, you know, your Sunday morning run, your Wednesday golf, those things are kind of non-negotiable. That really helps you keep your mind sharp, I think, and close to nature, which I think really has that healing, that sort of de-stressing ability, even just looking at your backdrop. Yeah, I feel calm. Yeah. Well, I mean, I agree. I'm a garden of myself. So I love actually mowing the lawn is my kind of like meditative state. Although even every time I do it, my name is always laughing. I mean, they're like, get your husband to do it. I'm like, no, this is my time. Yeah. It's a good one. I'm mowing the lawn. I think no one can bother you when you mowing the lawn, the noise, the motion, etc. It's a really good one. But it also makes me sound old and boring, but I really love to read too. So I think trying to get sort of some good fictions and good trash, you know, something that takes your mind and transports it, even if it's an hour, I think is a really nice way to just get your energy back. Any book recommendations? At the moment, I'm reading a room made of leads. Oh, I haven't read that, okay. I'll pop it on the list. So in closing, I'm just sort of looking at what you've been doing and then what you've been learning over the last few months, as you've kind of moved into the breaking space directly. What advice would you give to anyone who's just starting out in this industry? I think it'd be really clear about your strategy. And I think don't give yourself too long. Set higher goals. I think 50 million is a new 30 million in breaking in terms of if you take too long together, it actually gets harder. Join a business, I would say, or being an environment, you don't necessarily have to join that business, where you are exposed to a lot of scenarios. If it takes you too long to become productive, you'll just get miserable in life is how I see it as a new broker. I think it's really tough. It's that whole chicken and egg and everyone will say, put on support staff before you need it, but sometimes you can't afford that. So it's a stressful time and the bills are rolling in and there's no site of revenue. And you know, in residential, at least it's a long way off, you know, getting to a receded settlement for the time you finally find the client, but you finally get a deal approved and finally gets settled and it finally gets paid. That's a long time, you know, depending, you know, how much you've got in your life. So yeah, be clear on your strategy, set higher goals, but be in an environment, whatever that looks like, where you're exposed to enough lending scenarios that you can learn quickly, that you are around good operators so that you are successful. That would be my. Awesome. And thanks so much for sharing your story here on the new broker podcast. And best of luck with the rest of the year as you build the loan market.
at St. Kilda office and beyond in looking at bringing in new brokers too. We look forward to seeing what happens next for you in the year ahead. Thank you so much. If you've got any questions for me or for me to do for free to reach out, you can reach me at
[email protected] and anthropocnorton at loan market St. Kilda. I'm sure we should be happy to answer all the questions. I've just thrown under the bus there. And if anyone wanting to find out more about what brokers are doing to build their businesses, do check out all the podcasts on the advise podcast network. We've got about 10 years worth now of backlog for you to plow through with new brokers, elite brokers, women and finance, lenders, aggregators. You name it, we've probably got it and there's so much great advice in those podcasts hours for you as well. If anyone else, we hope you have five weeks and we'll catch you next time for another episode on the Advisor Podcast Network. The information featured in this podcast is generally in nature and does not take into consideration your financial situation or individual needs and should not be relied upon. Before making any investment insurance tax property or financial planning decision, you should consult a licensed professional who can advise whether your decision is appropriate for you. Guests appearing on this podcast may have a commercial relationship with the companies mentioned.
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