Netflix v. The Trans Community

[MUSIC] Hi, Tham. It's Amara. Welcome to the Translash Podcast, a show where we tell trans stories to save trans lives. Today, we're talking about Netflix, and everything that's happened in the month since Dave Chappelle came out with his Netflix special, The Closer. As you know, that content went nuclear. We took a deep dive into why these jokes were so damaging to trans people, putting our lives at risk, in collaboration with the Cancel Me Daddy Podcast just after the special aired. But more than Dave Chappelle, I am curious about what all this says about Netflix itself, about the outsized influence of this most powerful player in Hollywood, and about the contradictions. One might even say dangers at the heart of technology and media platforms whose global reach grows by the year. And that's why the pushback from trans employees and allies Netflix in the wake of the Closer matters. Now, only might its signal broader changes in Hollywood, but their demands might point to an even more profound shift required to make sure that media platforms driven by algorithms aren't weaponized against vulnerable groups. That's why today, we'll be speaking with B Pagels Minor, the black trans employee fired from Netflix about how the company has handled all of this. I have gotten dozens of messages from my former Netflix colleagues from every other type of colleague I've ever worked with, reminding me of the value that I have in society. And what I mean by that is, there are people who said, for instance, you were the embodiment of Netflix values. And then I'll be talking to Zoe Schiffer, a senior reporter at the Verge about how Netflix's management ended up in this mess and what might be next for the streaming giant. While I think it's very admirable that employees are pushing the company to do better, I think that when Ted Sarandos comes out and the first thing he's kind of saying is, look, it costs us this much and it's popular with our audience. I think we kind of have our answers right before us. But before we get to the show, I want to keep thanking everyone, writing podcasts reviews and shouting out our show. Here's one from Sandy Com. I've been listening to the Translash podcast since the first episode, yay, I am cis and with each episode, I learned so much that I never would have to ask a trans person. I am so grateful for Amara and companies, intelligent, joyful, and generous reporting. Thanks so much, Sandy Com. I'm so grateful for your company as well. If you tweet at Translash Media or leave a review on Apple Podcast, we might read your comment on the show too. Now, as always, it's time for some Trans Joey. Something that brings me joy is positive media representations of trans people and hearing our stories in all of their complexity. I mean, that's why I started this podcast. So today, I'm highlighting the Trans Journalist Association. It's a group dedicated to supporting trans journalists and improving coverage of trans communities in the media. The importance of their work has been underscored over the past year by the political and cultural controversies involving our community like Netflix. The association has a style guide to help reporters cover trans people and issues with care and respect. Membership is free and the group provides a space for trans journalists to connect with one another in full disclosure. I am a member of the Trans Journalist Association. I know you're not surprised. Oliver Ashcline is a founding member of the group. They also happen to be the senior producer for this podcast. Right now, in this moment, there is so much anti-transpropaganda. There is so much misinformation. And a lot of people get their understanding of trans issues and trans people from media. And that's one of the things that to me is most important is getting our membership and trans journalists and newsrooms and places to make editorial decisions in place where they're reporting on these issues. That's not only going to help those individual trans people get jobs and have more support in those jobs, but that's going to help create culture change and help create a world where trans people are more respected and treated with care and society. Oliver Ash, you and the hundreds of members at TJA are trans joy. With that, let's get into it. Joining me right now is Bee Pagel's minor. Bee has been at the center of so much of what's happening at Netflix. Bee was one of the organizers of Netflix's employee walk-out to protest Dave Chappelle's anti-trans special and the company's response to the criticism. But more importantly, Bee presented the company with a list of critical changes, including investment in more trans creators, the promotion of trans people of color to leadership roles, and greater involvement in decision-making from trans employees overall. Bee is black, non-binary and pregnant. They were hired in 2020 as a senior data product manager and held important leadership roles in both the trans and black employee resource groups at Netflix. Yet Bee was fired shortly after the walk-out was announced. They filed a complaint with the National Labor Review Board saying that their firing was retaliation for their efforts to hold the company accountable. Bee, I'm so sorry about everything that's been happening to you and I really appreciate you joining me today. Thank you for joining me, too. One of the things that you wrote about in your Washington Post op-ed piece, which everyone should read, is about how you grew up in Mississippi. And I'm wondering if you can just tell us how did you go from growing up in Mississippi to a job in Hollywood and Netflix? Oh my gosh. You know, it's so weird. It's my life. And I don't really understand how this happened either. [LAUGHTER] So I was bored in Mississippi. And then I kind of spent most of my childhood going between Mississippi and Tennessee. So I went to high school, for instance, in Memphis, Tennessee. And I was very fortunate, though, because my mother, just this brilliant, brilliant woman, who despite the fact that she actually didn't graduate from college until a month before I graduated from college. And she was like, baby, all I knew was that I needed to beat my oldest. That's what I was trying to do. She just really understood my brother, my sister, myself, we were special, and that if she just invested in us and empowered us that we could do anything, you know, as my mother, who would always say, go try that program, go to this summer program, go do these different types of things. And it was actually going to some of those summer programs that I realized there were schools outside of the, you know, the South, right? Because when I first was looking at colleges, all I wanted to do was go to University of Tennessee, because that's where my friends went to school. And so I ultimately ended up actually going to Duke before Transparency and Northwushing University. And I actually would say that going to Northwester is probably part of the reason that I ended up out here in California. And so what ended up happening is that I went from this person who was just like, oh, the best career a person like me can have is, you know, an attorney or something like that to actually, I really like technology. And then if you're in technology, there's only one way to really figure out if you're really great. And that's to end up in California working for some of the best tech companies in the world. And in 2018, I was recruited out to work at Apple. When I was at Apple, Apple TV launched. And that was the first time that I was just like, oh, content is actually this really, really intriguing concept. And it just so happened. And then I got recruited to Netflix almost two years after I got to California. And then I took the role because I was interested in the nexus of technology and media and how those two things kind of come together. So it all starts with my mother and her encouragement because she encouraged me to dream big. And the bigger I dreamed, the more I found out. And once you start finding out, you can do some stuff. It's really hard not to do it. And when in this journey, did you understand the unspooling of your gender identity as a part of this? What's so fascinating about it is that, I was completely clueless. My mom actually probably had an idea before I did that I was different in any way. I remember actually first coming out as a lesbian. And then coming out as like a butch lesbian, freshman year of college. And if I called my mother and I'm freaking out, the girl that I'm kind of crushing on, kind of dating whatever is right there and it's holding my hand. And I was like, mom, I'm a lesbian. And she was like, baby, I bet $100 on this 10 years ago. And I was like, what? She was like, yes, she was like, you watch this show on HBO that was about gay people. And you came into my room crying, talking about how mean they are to gay people. And I was like, well, I guess they probably gay. Like that's, that was literally my mom's reaction to that part of it. And then when I came out as more butch and I wanted to wear man's clothes, my mom was like, I don't really see this for you, but I'm gonna let you go. go with it. And unfortunately my mother passed away in 2012. So before I actually was brave enough to kind of go that next step. So in 2014, I met my current wife. And it was really her because she had a lot more friends who were gender nonconforming. I started creating relationships with a lot of gender nonconforming and also trans people. Now if I think about it though, what's really strange about my upbringing is that if I had seen an example of this, I feel like when I was younger, it would have totally made sense to me. But because there were no representations of trans culture, non-binary culture as I was growing up, I literally had no frame of reference until I met people to understand how much more I was like those folks than I had been around all the other people who had been in my life. And what's really interesting is they also know because of just how my mother was, chances are she would have been perfectly fine with it. But I never got to have that chance to find out. Given this understanding that you had about how content is really important for people as we develop our identities and the power of content technology, I'm wondering if you can first tell us about when you heard of the closer this Dave Chappelle special that was going to come out. Yeah, so when I first found out about the special, anyone at Netflix who knows about the fact that we had deals knew that there was going to be another Dave Chappelle special. The question was really when was it going to come out. And I found out a few days before it was released because you know, some people sent me an email saying, "Hey, FYI, there's another Dave Chappelle special coming out on October 5th. It could potentially be harmful." Or it could upset people essentially was what they said. And you may want to prepare for that. When did it cause alarm and the ERG, the employee resource group essentially, these are employee groups of affinity identities so that people who are not corporate listening, understand what we're talking about. When did your fellow colleagues also get wind of this and did they express concern? Once those external news sources started posting about it, various trends star, which is the name of the ERG, trans star, ERG groups started posting those things in various channels. So one person volunteered to watch it and recapped it for the rest of us. And we just started looking into what may, like what the whole special was about at that point. That's when people actually started getting upset because initially the main thing was, "Oh, he says that he's a turf." And we're like, "That's completely inappropriate, not okay." But then when you actually start digging into it, it's generally homophobic. It's continued misogyny. It is transphobic in terms of also misgendering people and the use of Daphne. It was very, very traumatizing to the trans star ERG. And so that's when it really became a big deal. And I'm wondering what you felt your role was in all of this. And I think a part of that would be a helpful grounding in us in your leadership role in the ERG, sort of what role did you play in the trans ERG? I think you said it was trans star, is that right? Yes, it's called trans star. And the star stands for all of the gender diverse people under the larger trans umbrella. Under trans star. And also you have a leadership role in the black ERG. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that. And if you felt because of that, you've had a particular responsibility in this particular matter. I had this dual role, right? Because for trans star, it was very apparent to me the types of things that needed to do. One, how did, first of all, no one from trans star get a heads up of like the maliciousness of the content in it? How did people inside of Netflix not realize how dangerous that content was? And how do we make sure that something like this doesn't happen again? And so I started emailing various content people, the HR teams, the inclusion and diversity teams to get people together to start having those conversations. I've never seen people so upset at Netflix. It caused major mental health issues. But at the same time, I was actually getting messages from black at members who were LGBTQ+ who were just like, I am super uncomfortable with the fact that no one at black at is discussing how harmful this special is. Or I'm super uncomfortable with whether I can post something about this. I have to say that for me, I have been heartbroken sometimes at the way in which I believe that other black people and other specifically black gay people, black men, haven't responded in a way where I would think would be consistent with their values around allyship. That just for me has been a really hard part of this on top of everything else. And I can't imagine what it was like to negotiate that on the inside. And overall, it just sounds like you've been in crisis management for a month. I mean, essentially, yes. And by the way, you have to show up and do your job and you're pregnant and you have a partner, right? So it's not like those other things stopped. You and your colleagues initially conceived of the walk out as I understand it as a mental health day. But then it changed into something else. Can you talk a little bit about where your thinking was because I think, you know, some people have painted this as an exercise and grievance by employees. But I really think it's important for people to understand that this grew out of a need for employees to actually take care of themselves. Yeah, that's correct. So, you know, well, one, I was trying to deescalate the situation to a certain extent, right? And so because people were increasingly getting more angry, especially with the Ted emails. And I was just like, this is going to turn into a very volatile situation. This is not going to work out well, especially for the trans star asked that we were already starting to develop. And so that's when I announced, you know, we should have a trans day of rest and that the trans day of rest, everyone who's transgender should have a whole day of rest. And then I also specifically said in our allies too, like you take your time off, educate yourself about trans issues. And I had scheduled that for October 20th. And the idea was really solely, how can we lower the pressure valve? And then I also saw so many people who were just like, I physically can't do my job. I started emailing the VPs of every single department saying, Hey, this is what I want to do. Can you help socialize this in your teams so that no one gets in trouble or no one gets, you know, diminished because they've taken this day? And everyone was agree. Everyone was like, OK, yeah, you know, I totally agree. That's a good idea. What we're going to be great. And it only became a walk out later when, you know, I took a vote from the the trans star leadership and the trans star participants. And they were like, you know, actually, at this point, we wanted to be a walk out and we wanted to be a day of action. So as a part of that, can you talk a little bit about the formation of the demands? You know, it's a funny. It started, it started like most things in Netflix star, which is I created a Google doc and I started writing down everything people had told me that they would like to see. And then we were find it for what we thought made sense because the other thing about this list, in addition to the fact that we don't want to take down the special and we didn't ask to meet with Dave Chappelle is we didn't want to fundamentally change the company or the product either. There's a value in why Netflix has been successful. And that's because of its underlying principles and its underlying technology. So the focus really is about how do you create parody and content? And that's by investing in talent. That's by investing and promoting content. What's it gets created? That's by recruiting people and leadership. Like, and that's really what it came down to. Is that as we were kind of thinking about this, we were just like, whoa, what we really want to do is just make sure that there's an accountability mechanism that says they will actually make these investments over the next few years versus paying it lip service. And when did you hear that you were going to be fired? So we had just finalized the list of asks. I posted the information that this was becoming a walk out at like 3 or 4 p.m. And at like 5.55 p.m. I got a message from my manager saying that they wanted to have a meeting with me. And then I get on the phone with her and she's like, oh, this is a very serious meeting. I'm going to bring in HR and legal. And then by like 7 o'clock, I was terminated. So right after the demands go up, the company says, here's the door. Essentially. What do they tell you in the meeting? Well, so they said that they had been investigating the leaks. And it seemed more likely than not that I was the person behind the leaks. And they had more likely than not. More likely than not was the. Yes, they never actually said we've definitively believed that you're the one who leaked the information in that meeting. It was I was only later when the press release came out that I was very surprised to see that I'd been having meetings with various people who were a part of this movement to share this data because we're paying an extremely large amount of money for these specials. And I don't believe we're getting nearly the ROI we could be getting. But at the flip side of that, if we invested in these other diverse buckets of content, we actually might get a greater ROI. The first call. I talked to them and they were just like, you know, I kind of do believe you that you didn't lick the information. But it's like very clear to me that you also gathered all the information. And I was like, yes, I don't deny that. They also brought up this like really, I thought very interesting thing where they were like, also we saw that you forwarded some emails. And I was like, yeah, if you check who I forwarded those two, it was to my wife. And the body of the email says, this is such a great email. This is so much better than the emails Ted's been sending. I was like, you should be able to see that you have access to all of my email data. You can see exactly the type of commentary I had in these emails. And I found out in that meeting that they said, well, all of that that's terminable. Like, you could actually be terminated just for forwarding an email. And I was just like, well, that doesn't make sense because I know a lot of us do that. And so then they were like, you know, give us 30 minutes to talk about this and see if there's any way we can keep you. And then they did come back in 30 minutes. And that's when they terminated me. So what I'm saying is that even in that conversation, at no point that I perceive it as you are the culprit, you are the absolute terrible person who's done this thing. When you heard that, how did you feel when they said, no, we're terminating you? You know, at the time, I felt guilty. I felt guilty because, you know, I wanted to be a part of this work. The reason I decided to come to Netflix was not only because I liked the manager who's recruiting me, but because I was excited about the potential of influencing content of also influencing company that's growing at such a rapid rate. And so I was heartbroken. I was like, I cannot believe I'm not going to be a part of the story anymore. What's interesting about that, to me, is that when you then contrast that with Ted Sarandos' commentary that he doesn't believe that there's a link between content and real-world harm, that there's no way that anything that we can be doing as a company is causing harm in the real world. I mean, it seems that he didn't really have to look further than his own office building. The ways in which some of his interviews have come across, the ways in some of his emails have come across, obviously, he's completely missed the point. But that particular point was so far out of the bounds of rationality that I was embarrassed for him. Because the simple fact is, why else would we have ratings on shows? You can't show a rated R. You're not supposed to show a rated R show to a five-year-old. Why is that? It's because there's been a determination that they don't have the skill set or ability to translate that information. That we think that they shouldn't be exposed to it. We can definitely say that that person's perception of trans people could be changed. And thus, the way that they treat a trans person could be fundamentally augmented to be negative. Right. Well, and it's also the entire premise of me and Translational My colleagues that the dehumanization of trans people through culture and portrayal is the necessary ingredient for the mass amount of violence that takes place against us. That is to say that these things actually work together. They're not separate. Exactly. And the idea that they are separate is a ridiculous one. And it's even more ridiculous by the fact that disclosure, which according to the verge we now note, Netflix drastically underpaid for, that's the entire point of disclosure is that there's a real world link between portrayals and Hollywood and violence against trans people. Perhaps that everyone watched it. The only person that's paid the price in this entire affair so far and paid the highest price I should say is you. So who is black and trans and non-binary and pregnant is the person rather who's paid the highest price so far. Not Dave Chappelle who is crisscrossing the world on a grievance tour saying that he's being silenced, which I continue to be mystified by. Not those saying that this is a part of cancel culture. Not even some of your former white colleagues who also spoke up and were courageous and brave throughout this, but you. And I'm wondering how you understand that and how you process that as a black trans person. You know, taking me a couple weeks to really digest everything that's come that's happened. And I remember when the suspensions happened of, you know, Tara Filled, they suspended her on one day and it took them three days to investigate and make a determination that she did nothing wrong and to let her back. And somehow, you know, as I was recapping this time in my head, the Bloomberg article comes out on the 13th and by the evening of the 14th, I'm terminated. And I just keep thinking to myself, if it took three days to investigate, to exonerate someone, it seems like it should have taken at least three days to make the determination that someone was guilty. And so I definitely feel as though it's a reminder that for some reason I was more expendable. And I'm not sure how that conclusion can be made because I also was the person who every time Netflix needed to have someone speak about trans benefits, trans culture, to speak at the, the HBCU program that they have, they would ask me to come talk about being a black person in Netflix. And I did that willingly because I thought that it was a place that really wanted black people and black trans people to be successful. I've kind of converted from this person who felt guilty to a person who's angry. Where in this do you believe is the hope for the possibility of change that the sacrifice that you've made and the pain that's been endured by people inside the company and outside the company. I know for me this has been a really hard month and I don't work there. They don't pay my bills, they're not my colleagues. I don't go to work every day. I don't have to talk to these people. But where for you, if at all, remains the hope that you began when you started at Netflix and the hope that you have for how content can make a better world. You know, there's two things that I keep thinking about. So first and foremost, I have gotten dozens of messages from my former Netflix colleagues, from every other type of colleague I've ever worked with reminding me of the value that I have in society. And what I mean by that is there are people who said, for instance, you were the embodiment of Netflix values. And now I wonder if you are simply the value at and not the values that we've written. And I think there's something powerful about that. You know, one of the things I think that's a struggle for so many people is that especially when you get to the pinnacle of some of these companies, right, like you've worked your whole career, you're working at some of the most prestigious companies in the world. It's so easy to forget to be hungry, to be passionate about the work that you do. And I think that I've helped people reconnect with that passion and reconnect with that hunger. And I think that's really cool. It doesn't matter if I have a huge 401k or my house is paid off, if there's nothing for me to hold that up with. But the second part of it is my wife and I spent most of the weekend working on the nursery for our son. Because I was just like, well, about 35 days, he's going to be here. And I know for a fact that by my actions right now, I've made the world slightly better for him. And if I continue to do that, if I continue to encourage other people to do that, if I continue to speak out, it's going to get even more better for him. And so that's one of the things that's interesting about all of this is that it's probably the most tenuous time of my life for this to happen. But it's also the time that I'm probably the most passionate and determined to ensure this world is better. Because there's no way that I want him to have the exact same experience that I did. You know, just like my mother didn't want me to have the exact same experience that she did. And that goal is the center of my universe. You wrote in the Washington Post that you wanted to always do things that would make your mother proud. And I am absolutely positive that as your son looks back over your life, that there's so many things already that he will be able to look to with tremendous pride and gratitude. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you again for having me. That was B. Pegel's minor, a former senior data project manager at Netflix, and leader of that organization's walk out and demands for change. To delve even deeper into what's going on at Netflix, I invited one of the top reporters covering the day's Chappelle Saga and the company's ongoingness handling of the situation. Zoe Schiffer is a senior reporter at the verge and has broken story after story about this whole ordeal making her the ideal person to help us pull back the curtain and get a look behind the scenes at Netflix. Zoe is also written for Vox and the San Francisco Chronicle, among others, and is a must follow if you want hard hitting reporting and smart analysis about the world of tech. Zoe has also done some particularly strong reporting around labor organizing at major tech companies. Zoe, thank you so much for joining us. joining me today. - Thank you so much for having me. - First off, I'm wondering if you can give us a snapshot of Netflix. How big is it? What's its reach and how important has it become within the realm of entertainment in Hollywood? - Netflix has this interesting place in both Silicon Valley and Hollywood. It has enormous sway in Hollywood in particular, because it's producing a lot of the content that has become wildly popular in the past few years. And a lot of the major studios and the major talent are now really beholden to it. As a company, it's 12,000 employees. It's one of the fang companies. So it's financially very, very successful. So it also has that kind of outsized control and sway in Silicon Valley. - Content-wise, they've committed to releasing or initiating $6 billion of the content next year for example. So I think that also gives us a sense. I mean, that's just kind of unheard of for entertainment companies in the modern era. - Yeah, exactly. They've really taken this dual approach where they're producing Netflix originals, which we all know and date the Dave Chappelle special falls in this category, where they get kind of the boutique treatment within Netflix. There's a lot of attention paid to this type of content. And then they're constantly acquiring new titles and licensing new titles on the platform as well. - Licensing existing titles that people know, like friends, for example, and a whole host of other things. - Exactly, and new content as well. You know, they're watching Sundance. They're seeing what new movies come out and they're acquiring those for the platform. - Right. And so since, for example, in Hollywood licensing and producing new content are both really key parts of the business, it seems like they have outsized influence. - Yeah, absolutely. There's no question. I mean, I think this really speaks to why we haven't heard a lot of like the in-pernile turmoil going on at Netflix because employees are kind of in this position where if you're on the entertainment side of the house, you do not want to speak out against Netflix because you can get put on a list and it can become very, very difficult for you to get hired in Hollywood. We know that Hollywood operates in this way. And then if you're a tech employee, you're kind of aware of the extent to which tech companies will go to to stop employees from speaking out. You might have a little more insight into the NDA that you've signed. And those NDAs at Netflix are very, very strict. And so there's kind of this dual-layer pressure to stop people from speaking out. - You touched upon, for example, that if you're a person like Shepel, you get quote, boutique treatment, close quote, at Netflix with regard to content creation. What is the relationship with Dave Shepel? And why have they kind of crafted this entire area of doing comedic specials, which from time to time has been a landmine for the company. And for me, the pull back and forth between them and the comedian, Monique speaks of that. - Yeah, absolutely. So they've said outright that the comedy specials that they produce are wildly popular with the audience. I think personally, there's kind of this feeling among executives that they like the content, they like pushing the envelope a little bit and they like creating content that kind of sets the cultural conversation. So that's something I've just heard from employees that there's this kind of like pride that they're the ones kind of producing the comedy specials that get talked about day and day out on social media. So this goes back to 2016. Netflix signed a deal with Dave Shepel to produce six comedy specials for the platform. I think he was paid around $20 million for each of them. The company has said now that six and stones was Netflix's most popular comedy special to date. That was Shepel's previous special before the closer. And so I think we can kind of get a sense of why they're so committed to him as a performer and comedian. They've paid an enormous amount of money to Shepel, much more than some of the other pieces of popular content that we know about that have been produced lately. And the content has been wildly successful with the audience. Bloomberg reported essentially that Ted Serrondo signed off on the closer directly. And I had done some reading about Netflix, specifically read Hastings who is the founder in the now the Co-CEO as well, a book that he'd written called No Rules, Netflix, and the Culture Reinvention. And in it, he goes into this long conversation about how they have a dispersed decision-making model. That is to say that they try to push decision-making to the lowest level of people that are closest to content or to conversations with talent because they believe that that drives the best outcome. And for me, the fact that this rose all the way up to Ted Serrondo's was of giant red flag to me personally, either as a person who's worked in an entertainment company before because normally people want to claim success around content if they believe that something's going to thrive, they embrace it. They don't want to kick it to someone else to perhaps get the credit. And I'm wondering how that conversation strikes you and whether or not that is something that is surprising that happened in Netflix. - Yeah, that's a really interesting point. I mean, I think on one level, it's not shocking to me that a piece of content that was known to be potentially controversial and that had cost them $24.1 million would rise up the ranks. But the fact that the CoC was signing off on a piece of content, I do think it's significant. It seems like Netflix went into this kind of gearing up for a potential PR battle and had really decided ahead of time that they were going to stand by the special. - What do you think this says about Ted Cerrandos and his leadership style? - Yeah, I think that that's such an interesting question and something I think about all the time. One thing that is on my mind lately, Facebook, for example, has been getting a lot of criticism and kind of the tagline externally is the company put profits over people. And there's part of me that thinks, as someone who worked in tech before becoming a journalist, like it is not at all shocking to me that a for-profit organization is prioritizing profits. Like it's right in the structure what is gonna be important to these people. And so while I think it's very admirable that employees are pushing the company to do better, I think that when Ted Cerrandos comes out and the first thing he's kind of saying is, look, it costs us this much and it's popular with our audience, I think we kind of have our answers right before us. - For me, that response and the Netflix immediate gravitation towards the idea of for-profits struck me very much as in line with what we're hearing from Facebook and what we've heard from Mark Zuckerberg for the past now five years. It's not out of line and that's interesting that in this age of understanding the way in which tech and content can cause real-world harm that CEOs of these companies and leaders of these companies still don't accept that responsibility even though it's been proved to be true. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one thing that's really important to look at is, I mean, fundamentally as a labor reporter, what I'm interested in is what is the place that employees have in this conversation? And I actually think like the place that employees have in the Netflix controversy cannot be overstated because one thing that's really true is, while it might not be shocking that Netflix is prioritizing content that they've invested heavily in over their own employees, it's also true that they like many other tech organizations have positioned themselves as a very progressive employer. And as soon as we have a hypocrisy like that, we have a company that said, we care about you as a person, bring your whole self to work, we have inclusive values and then it's falling down on those values. I think we have a story. And so the story here is that it becomes an unsafe place for trans employees to work if the content that is being produced from their perspective is directly harmful to their communities. - Yeah, that's right. Let's then turn to the employees. Can you talk a little bit about your sense of whether or not the trans ERG is embraced by the wider employees set? - I think that, and I really don't want to speak on behalf of any of the trans employees, but what I've heard so far is that they have a lot of support. There are a lot of allies internally at Netflix. For example, I think there are about 40 out trans employees at Netflix at this time, but the actual employee resource group or the Slack channel is well over 1,000 employees. It was 400 when all of this started. And so I think that there are real ways and we heard this firsthand at the walk out employee saying, look, when I first came here, I was the only trans woman on my team. I would go to the trans employee resource group meetings and there were seven of us in the room and now there's almost 50 and that feels much less lonely than it used to. So I feel like there's a way in which the community self-hazegroand support has grown and their influence has grown. They've been able at least prior to this date, should health controversy to have a bigger role in conversations around transphobic content. - One out of 12 employees is now on that Slack channel. That's-- - It's impressive. - Astounding. Did it surprise you that none of the demands of the ERG with respect to changes that it wanted to see at Netflix? Did it include removing the content, for example, that most of it was focused on ways that the company needs to change with respect to how it operates, who it promotes, and the content that gets funded. Because they didn't make it about, as Dave Shapale is claiming silencing him, although I don't know how he's being silenced, but the $25 million check in-- - Sounds phenomenal. Would love to be silenced in a similar way. - Indeed. At any point, please contact me. Anyone. Anyone. But did that surprise you with regards to how the employees are approaching this? I thought it was a very savvy PR move. I guess I'll say that. And I think that employees at these big tech organizations have learned from one another. I think Netflix employees were like, "Look, this is already getting bogged down in this discussion around cancel culture and censorship. And we don't even want to touch that. We want to look at the systemic issues of why this content was able to air in the first place and what we're going to do to mitigate harm." And so I think that that was a very strategic decision to not get involved in this conversation around whether or not Dave Chappelle Special should stay up or come down, but really focus on kind of the larger issues at play. Yeah, I think that that's right. And it also puts the onus right back on Ted Surondo's and the leadership to respond on that. Exactly. It gets them out of the conversation that they wanted to have. And on the conversation, that's more difficult for them to have if they really are about creating content and making that workplace inclusive as they advertise. So I think that there was some real intelligence behind that. Yeah, completely. I mean, I think that's discussion around whose canceling who, which is just very unfruitful right now, we're having a really different conversation because the only person that's lost to their job is an Netflix employee who's trans, who's black, who's pregnant. And I think when we want to talk about cancellation, I mean, that's the person who's faced some real repercussions for after speaking out. And Dave Chappelle Special is still up and he's still getting standing innovations. You made the point that, and this is so true, that people in entertainment do not want to be labeled as difficult, do not want to be labeled as having called out their bosses in any way. Normally it is a career color, not just a job killer. I think it's important for people to understand that, but it's a career color. And we have seen, however, so many people being willing to take that risk. Yeah, I mean, I think we have to really look at who actually is speaking out. Because one thing we know for a fact is that the majority of Netflix employees who have spoken out are on the software side of the business. They're not on the entertainment side of the business. And talent who's spoken out, or Hannah Gatsby being one, is it's like talent that has a lot of power and play in the industry. And so I don't know if we can look at this moment and say, wow, this is an enormous shift for Hollywood. Because I think if you're a tech employee, you do have that kind of assurance that you can probably get another tech job. And there is more of a culture of speaking out against wrongs and forcing your company to stand up for its stated values. I don't know if that's true in a Hollywood to this point. And I think that you have to really reach a certain level where you can kind of afford to speak out before you're willing to really do that. I kind of have been surprised by the number of people that have spoken out. I have to say, you know, Angelica Ross, who's connected to Ryan Murphy, who has a big deal on Netflix said something Jonathan Van Ness, of course, Wilson Cruz. I mean, there've been a number of people that I've been surprised. I have to say, who've weighed in in addition to other people across the country. And so I'm wondering if you have a sense, it doesn't seem like you do yet. But if this does signify that there'll be certain changes at Netflix or in Hollywood when it comes to living up to the values that they say that they hold. I think we have to be clear that like for Netflix, it hasn't translated into a business problem yet. Netflix had its earnings call last week. And I don't think a single analyst asked about the walk out or asked about the date of the controversy. Yeah. So there is this question on whether a cultural problem can translate into a business problem at which point Netflix will be kind of forced to make changes. But you know, I do think we've seen points in the past with the meaty movement where enough people were speaking out that Hollywood was really forced to change. And people who previously had tried to speak out and been silenced were suddenly not going to be silenced anymore. And they were able to speak out and continue getting jobs. So you know, I think it's a little early to say whether this could be another moment like that. And I don't know if it's like reached that level in the kind of cultural public conversation yet where we could even speculate about it. But I think that it's like it's part of this big or labor movement where the balance of power is kind of shifting away from executives and toward workers, particularly workers who come together and fight for something collectively. And that I think could create real lasting change. After all of this, do you think that Ted Sarandos realizes that he has a problem? I don't think they've given us any indication that they regret putting the special up. But I think that they've stuck very, very close to supporting the special and supporting Dave Chappell. And while I have to imagine that they're rethinking how they give employees kind of a heads up of what content is coming down the pike. And maybe rethinking some of their like PR strategy around this stuff. I personally have seen no indication so far that they're rethinking like their content strategy overall. That's interesting to me because I have had people who are producers and content creators and Holly would reach out to me and tell me that they had either canceled meetings with them or had decided not to shop their content with them. And this kind of gets back to the previous answer. Like if it becomes a business problem for Netflix, I think they will change their strategy. Well, so we thank you so much for coming on and for explaining all of the complexities around this issue with regards to tech, entertainment and labor issues, employee groups, executive leadership and trans issues. I think we've all benefited from your reporting. We'll continue to follow it and hope that if the story continues that we can have you back on at some point to help us explain it all. Thank you, Mara, so much for having me and thank you for creating a platform for me and the other people involved to talk about these issues. Of course, of course, that was Zoe Schifram, a senior reporter at the Verge. Thank you for joining me on the Translash podcast. Now listen all the way through to the end of the show for something extra. If you'd like to what you heard, please go to Apple Podcast to rate and review us. You can listen to Translash wherever you get your podcasts. Please check us out on the web at translash.org to sign up for our weekly news letters. There I must. You should all be signed up for it by now. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Translash Media, like us on Facebook and tell your friends. The Translash podcast is produced by Translash Media. The Translash team includes Oliver Ash Klein, Montana Thomas, Jamie Colliff, and Yannick Ike Mirko. Our intern is Marana Munson Burke, Alexander Charles Adams, does the sound editing for our show. Our digital strategy is handled by Danielle Capistrano. The music you heard was composed by Ben Draghi and also courtesy of ZZK Records. So what am I looking forward to? Well, it's hard to say that I'm looking forward to this next week, of course, is Trans Week of Remembrance where we remember all of those lost to violence. It looks as if this year might beat last year's record as the most violent year. And that's just downright depressing and just underscores the work that we have to do. And why this podcast and why Translash Media and everyone who's working to shift culture and violence in our country are so vital at this moment. At Translash, however, I'm looking forward to all of the things we're going to be putting out next week. We are going to be releasing a Zine, which is going to focus on the theme of migration for trans people, migration within our country to escape one part of the other in order to feel freer. People who've migrated from around the world. I'm also looking forward to the presentation of a commemoration project. What we've done in cooperation with artist Ripley Bennett is whenever there's been a passing this year, we've done an artistic representation of that person, we're going to compile those and put them both in our Zine and in an animation that we're going to distribute across the social media. So I feel good about that as well. And are just going to be doing a lot of things to spotlight the voices and the importance of trans week of remembrance leading up to trans day remembrance on the 20th. I'll also be giving a lot of speeches and doing a lot of public events at various places. It's so follow me on social media for those, but just follow the things around that it always is a week of beauty because of what people produce and create, but also one of pain and poignancy. So I'll be holding both of those next week.