NERD_0380 Scrap Circle Time with Amy Reyes-Hauff - That Early Childhood Nerd

Introducing Amy Reyes-Hauff and the Call to Scrap Circle Time Grab your highlighters. Can't find them? They're probably right there in your pocket protector. It's time for that early childhood nerd podcast. Let's get nerdy. Here's Heather. Speaker 2 Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of That Early Childhood Nerd. I'm Heather Burnt Santi, and my guest today is Amy Reyes Hoff. Hi, Amy. Speaker 3 Hi, thanks for having me. Speaker 2 Today, would you tell folks about you, who you are and what you do and and then we'll have our conversation. Speaker 3 I'm Amy Reyes Hoff and I am with the Wyoming Department of Education. I work as the state early learning and early literacy specialists, and I've been with the Department of Education for some time now. But before that I was in a classroom. I spent most of my time as a kindergarten teacher and as a Head Start director. I spent almost 15 years as a Head Start director. I was a Head Start teacher before that. I've spent my entire career, almost 25 years in early childhood education. So being the early childhood nerd, I completely feel that. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 It's a it's a select but fun group. The the early childhood nerds. Well, I'm just really glad you're here. So you did a podcast. You were on another podcast that I listened to called baby jail unlocked with Doctor Chloe Keegan, which if you, if no one's found her, go find her now. She's, she's really interesting and fun, but you, your, your message was let's scrap circle time. And that caught my attention because as we talked a little bit off mic, it's, it's a tough sell to say. Here's this thing that has been traditional for so long and it's baked into our scripts. And now you're saying we shouldn't do it anymore or we should scrap it. So why, why? Unpacking the Developmental Problems with Traditional Circle Time Why is that your position? Speaker 3 Because I was that teacher saying that crisscross applesauce with a bubble in your mouth and trying to do this orchestrated play of circle time for 2025 minutes up to 1/2 an hour sometimes. And I was always the one that was struggling with the behaviors during circle time as well. And even now during my observations in classrooms, those behaviors are coming out during circle time. And so it's, it's no longer developmentally appropriate. And so there are so many things that you can do to replace circle time, to replace those activities that are done during circle time. It's, it's not important for children that are in those pre-K ages to know what the days of the week are or the months in the in the calendar and so on and so forth. It's so much more important for children to understand those social emotional skills rather than those academic skills, especially the calendar and the days of the weekend and those things that are traditionally taught during several times. Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I it's so hard. I think one of the reasons it's really hard for people to hear this and and well, for when we get defensive, right, because we've all done it. I I definitely have tried to do long circle times. And in fact, in an episode that we recorded a couple of weeks ago, I talked about how it really helped me because I felt teachery when I did a circle time it, it was, I loved making the props and decorating the the calendar and cutting out the the things we would use for the calendar and laminating things. And it just fit an idea for me of what it meant to be a quote UN quote real teacher. And I think that's probably part of why it's so hard to let go of. Speaker 3 I would agree with that 100%. And, and when you go into a traditional preschool classroom, that's what you're going to see. And so you don't want to be the outcast that's no longer doing a circle time, but circle time with preschoolers. It's it's problematic because a factors like disengagement and that reduced motivation and especially those behaviors for your children that are active learners and they're preferring manipulating materials during that time instead. So requiring them to sit passively conflicts with their developmental needs, right? So it involves sitting and listening, which is challenging for young children that are active and prefer that hands on learning. So if circles times not engaging or doesn't cater to individual needs of children because it's a large group setting, children become disengaged and learn, lose that motivation to learn. And so before no time they're banging into each other or they're messing with their friend next door or they're moving around or whatever it is. And so you know they're they're doing one thing or another. And so you're trying to re engage them and you're spending all your time doing that instead of active teaching. Speaker 2 Yeah, and that's so it's just really disheartening to be the teacher feeling like the proof of my skill will be a smooth circle time and that it's not smooth because it's not a developmental match, right. What we're expecting, just what you said, what we're expecting and what children can do and how they learn. And we either internalize that ourselves as not being good enough at it yet, or we put it on the children and it's their deficit. And if they would just straighten up, then my circle time would work again. Speaker 3 Exactly, exactly. And I mean, and if you look into a traditional classroom, that's where the bulk of the behaviors are coming from. It's from that circle time and and it's it's intrinsic because teachers are trying to control that behavior during that time and that behavior that's no longer developmentally appropriate. So, you know, do they need to know the days of the week? Is this a meaningful skill? You really need to go back and rethink it. You know it. It's time to accept that those cute little days of the week and and those songs are not really a good use of children's time. So no matter how much you sing that song or you point to the days of the week, those things are life experience that it takes to fully grasp them anyway. And so that process can can simply not be rushed, right? Like it takes time to do that. So they're far more necessary and pertinent skills that are waiting for children to learn through play instead, that don't need to be taught through that though the interactions of circle time. Speaker 2 Yeah. So you said it's not a good use of children's time. Prioritizing Engagement and Respecting Children's Learning Time I love that because we don't think about that very often. We don't think about children having a right to, you know, a good use of their time. Will you talk a little bit more about that? I think that's really an interesting phrase. Speaker 3 I think, I think it's just equally important to be respectful of their time and their space while they're there. And I, I mean, I tell people this all the time when I'm presenting. I don't want somebody to get up in the front of a room and, and read some loud long PowerPoint presentation to me, right? Like nothing is worse than sitting in a room while somebody's reading a PowerPoint to me. In my mind, that's what we're doing when we're doing circle time. I don't want to do that. So I would like to be respectful to the preschoolers and our classrooms and remove that and not read that PowerPoint presentation of circle time and the circle time activities directly to them. When there's engaging activities that we could promote in the classroom that can be done through especially small group instruction instead, instead of that large group instruction. And so I, like I said, I, I'm during my presentation that I do at a national level, I go up and I read a long PowerPoint screen to them just so they're bored to tears, really to illustrate my point of how painful it is to sit there when you're bored as well. And we're adults that can, you know, all of a sudden I'm getting bored and I can grab my cell phone and start to do this with it. Well, preschoolers don't have that option, right, Right. And so instead it comes out in behavior. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think I can't remember. Well, I guess it was when I was in probably in my bachelor's program. So I, I'm one of those folks who started in early childhood without the degree and then went and got my degree after doing the work for a long time. So I was in my 40s when I did my bachelor's and I remember writing a discussion board post about how we, we do this sort of traditional circle time because we think that's what children need to be ready for school, right? They're going to be expected to sit still and passively accept information when they get to kindergarten or whatever. So we have to train them to do it now and then we, you know, we have these mismatches. Their bodies aren't ready for it. It's not presented in the way that their minds need it to be presented to, to be actively engaging for them. And so they, you know, they, they have these things that we call disruptive behaviors and we scold them or we send them away or, you know, and, and those children get the message then, oh, I'm not good at school or, oh, my teacher doesn't like me or, oh, this is just no fun. And that's a very different kind of school readiness, right? That's not doing what we, what we with good intentions, hope to be doing, right? We're almost working counter to to getting them, you know, sort of in a position where they can participate in that exactly that next. Speaker 3 And what kind of message is that sending in the 1st place that when I get to school it's going to be boring? So this is what I'm getting ready for. Like, why would I be excited to go to kindergarten if this is what we're going to sit and do? And so if we're really building up motivation and excitement for school, you know, I'm also a huge proponent of outdoor learning. And so and, and, and just changing that dynamic and the structure of the four wall classroom and really building the excitement for taking the classroom outdoors and, and changing the game on what a traditional classroom looks like in the 1st place. And I agree, that's how we do it as well, is by changing up what it looks like. And we do that by scrapping circle time in the 1st place, but also changing what a traditional classroom looks like as well. Speaker 2 Yeah, so, so you've talked about an outdoor classroom and, and you also mentioned a little while ago doing things in small groups instead of trying to do a whole, the whole group together. That's been really hard. I'm I'm teaching the summer a class called the cognitive curriculum. So we're focusing on math and science and social studies and things for children birth to 5. And it's been really difficult for my students who are mostly currently working in early childhood programs to think about small groups and not doing everything as a whole group. So in addition to like the circle time script being something we have to get rid of, there's also this. We have to do everything all together script that we have to have to kind of scrap. Where was I going with that? Oh, so I think one of the one of the justifications for this circle time, as we traditionally do it, where I'm reading this long, this book to you and you're all sitting still and receiving it. Calendar time's done and now it's time for the book. The goal is literacy, right? We want children to to to want to read and and be able to learn to read, but this is not an effective way of doing that. I'm guessing you is what is what you're thinking. Speaker 3 That's, that's exactly what I'm thinking, especially if you're looking at small group instruction over large group instruction, this approach, it fosters that that better engagement, deeper understanding and stronger relationships between teachers and students because in those smaller states settings, preschoolers can participate more actively and they receive a more tailored feedback approach, right. And so it's more that individualized attention and increased participation from the students, enhanced engagement. And then there's that social emotional development portion of it because they provide opportunities for preschoolers to practice those social skills like cooperation, communication, and even, you know, conflict resolution in the moment. And then specifically reducing that overwhelming feeling of not wanting to speak up in front of the group. And so large group settings can be very, very overwhelming for young children where small groups provide more of that manageable and comfortable learning environment for them. And so it it's more of a comfortable setting where it's just very conversational instead. Speaker 2 Yeah, you, you drew a, a parallel to a while ago to, to us as adults sitting in meetings and how we can cope with the, you know, we have some coping skills that maybe children don't have. Fostering Oral Language and Social Skills in Small Groups But I think this is another another way that we can connect to our own experience and then maybe understand children a little bit or have take their perspective a little bit better. When we're in a meeting, we're giggling with a coworker next to us, right? Or we're whispering about something. And in fact, there are so many. I see this all the time, like on social media memes and things about we we're the two people who shouldn't sit next to each other at the meeting and we sort of take pride in that. But when we're leading this group time and the children are the ones giggling with each other or talking to each other, we see that as disrespectful or misbehavior. And we don't. We're certainly not feeling disrespectful if we laugh with a friend. Speaker 3 No, not a meeting. And how are we promoting oral language development? Speaker 2 Yes, if. Speaker 3 If they're back there having a conversation in a classroom and, and, and we're saying, OK, stop, put a bubble in your mouth, Put a bubble in your mouth. Well, how is that? How is that promoting oral language, especially post COVID, post pandemic where oral language is decreasing in our preschoolers? And then we're, we're encouraging them not to speak up. That doesn't, that doesn't sit well with me. I, I can't wrap my mind around that. Why we would not want these classrooms that are just full and rich with this oral language that's going on in the classroom. And, and when you do small group instruction it you can have all of these little groups that are that are conversing with one another and you would not believe the rich depth and breadth of the conversation that can happen in that small group instruction time. Yeah. Speaker 2 And we, I mean, we know that having conversations it leads to or is connected to future reading comprehension. Yes, right. So we tend to think, OK, well, that or I think there are folks who would think, well, that means I'm having conversation with the children and that's the conversation that matters. But you're absolutely right. This, these conversations with each other that children can have in play and in small groups are so much richer than waiting for your turn and trying to guess the right answer in a large group or waiting for the kind of directional or correctional conversation that adults have with children. So often it is those those opportunities to talk to each other. I have that impact. Speaker 3 It's foundational to literacy development. It's that that bedrock for reading and writing both so strong oral language, including both. Vocabulary, syntax, biological awareness. They all directly support a child's ability to comprehend spoken and written language eventually. So why would we not want them just chatting of a storm in a classroom? Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I, you know, I think it's the social development too, that's so important. And I, I see people giving a lot of lip service to children, need social and emotional skills to be ready for school. But we don't have the, the urgency about it that we do about letters and numbers and things that are maybe easier to measure. And I think about this when I see two children, maybe it's in circle time, but maybe it's at the table when it's meal time or whatever. Being sort of scolded and corrected for having fun with a friend. You said it earlier, they're messing with their friend next to them, right? We send such a weird message when we call everyone. We're all friends here, you know, you're all, we're all friends. But also don't be friends like that because that kind of friendship is inconvenient for me. Exactly. Speaker 3 No, you are so right and I'm so glad you brought up meal time. I had, I had this conversation with each each of the counterparts that I work with in the state because you know, if you go into a traditional classroom, it's what, 5 or 6 tables traditionally in a classroom. Now, post post post COVID, they're not going to a lunch room. So they're sitting in their classrooms and they're eating and it's, it's quiet. Like, what is wrong here? I mean, used to be in a lunch room. I mean, when I taught and I used to have to do lunch, Judy, it was loud. And, and it should, it should be loud. I know I'm talking like people screaming, but there should be a lot of conversation. I I compare it to when you go into an Applebee's on a on a Wednesday night. It's loud. You know why? Because people are talking. Yeah. That's exactly how that classroom or that lunchroom should feel when we are encouraging and reinforcing oral language development and conversational skills at the long term table. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, this is totally unrelated, but that's just how my brain works. I just heard the most heartbreaking thing. A month or so ago, someone was talking about how she was setting a 20 minute timer at lunchtime at her child care center to train the children to eat and be done in 20 minutes. Because in kindergarten, that's what they'd have to do is eat and be done in 20 minutes. And I was like, I know that's real. Like I know meal times are hard in the elementary school. There's logistics, there's schedules or whatever, but that just that idea that we have to start taking things away from children earlier so that they'll be ready for this other system, it's just so hard for. Speaker 3 Her. Speaker 2 But she just, you know, is good intentions, right? She didn't want kids to get in trouble or whatever. And it's just really hard. Speaker 3 And learn to eat quickly so you can't get your lunch down. But Oh my gosh, think of all that time that's being missed on those those social emotional skills. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. So, so I'm going to go take us back to circle time for for a minute because I can do this all day. Exploring Play-Based and Movement-Rich Learning Alternatives So we've talked about, you've talked about the the things that aren't effective about our traditional circle time. Will you talk a little bit about in your perfect classroom or your perfect setting? You know, we have maybe to meet some of those same goals. What what could we do? How do we do it differently? If someone's listening now and they're like, OK, yeah, I want to scrap circle time and I'm going to try something new. Where would you direct? How would you direct them? Speaker 3 I would tell them, you know, I give, I give an example just I don't know when I was on Doctor Keegan's podcast and I give an example of a literacy lesson that was done without circle time. And I was in a classroom and she was doing, I don't remember what letter it was now, it's been so long, but she was doing some kind of literacy lesson, some kind of phonological lesson and. And it was during circle time. It was going very poorly, very, very poorly. And I said, OK, well, let me try something else. Let's try it my way and see how it works. And I, I don't remember what letter it was, so we'll just go with the letter E. And so I said instead we are going to do hide and seek and we're going to let each of the kids go hide. And instead of counting, I'm going to name everything that starts with the letter E and elephants and eggs and all these things and keep just repeating the letter E, you know, keep doing this over and over and over. And I said I have their full attention right now because they're hiding like they don't want to be found. Speaker 2 Right. But they're also listening because they want to know if you're coming. Speaker 3 Audience right now like they are fully engaged with what I'm doing and they don't have to be right in front of me bored to tears. And so I think that is a prime example of doing, you know, something that would have been typically traditionally taught in a circle time setting that was easily taught in a 5 minute lesson where the kids had no idea that that was the purpose of it. But they recognize now all the things that were started with the letter E. And so we still got our literacy lesson and had some fun with it. Things were silly, they were goofy, and it was done in 5 minutes. Speaker 2 I was probably quick. Speaker 3 It was, it was 5 minutes, literally 5 minutes. They came back to the to the rug afterwards and I said, you know, tell me, tell me everything that starts with the letter. And they were just spouting them off and spewing them off. And even afterwards, after that lesson had been complete and we came back to it, I said, all right, before you can go, everybody tell me what the sound for the letter E is. And most everybody knew what it was. So it landed like they were listening. But guess what? I had a fully captive audience, but they weren't just sitting there, right? Speaker 2 I was going to. Speaker 3 That's a prime example. Speaker 2 Yeah, that sounds so fun. And they're moving, right? Even when they're hiding, they've got their bodies in a different position and they're probably wiggling to stay hidden. And we know that that also engages focus and memory and attention. I'd play. That sounds fun. Speaker 3 So I, I think, I think that's a, that's an example. And I tell people all the time, go try whatever you were going to do, go outside, grab some carpet remnants. If you have children who don't want to sit in the grass or whatever it may be, grab some carpet remnants and go outside. Do your lesson out there. And if you have some kids that want to stand and some kids that want to sit and some kids that want to jump on one foot in the back and somebody who wants to do around and then spin in circles where you're doing it, it doesn't matter. They don't have to be sitting crisscross applesauce on the rug to be listening, to be actively listening and engaged to what you're saying. You know they can be jumping around doing whatever they need to do and still be listening. So it doesn't have to look like traditional circle time to be circle time. Speaker 2 And some folks who who are listening will have heard this story before, but several years ago, I hurt my knee and had, you know, a brace on it and couldn't cross my legs. And I always crossed my legs. Part of it is because I'm short and I need to study myself. But that's just how I sit. And for those weeks that I couldn't sit with my legs crossed in meetings, it was so hard for me to focus. All I could think about as a grown up with years of experience and coping skills, all I could think about was how uncomfortable and how unstable I felt. And that was or that is I think one of the the stories that really connects with people. When we talk about crisscross applesauce, none of us are sitting in one way still in a meeting. We all have our different ways that that we need to be positioned so that we can focus. And So what you're talking about probably made some people cringe a little bit, you know, but but the reality is the the children need to move. You said that the way we are traditionally doing circle time conflicts with their developmental needs and movement is one of the biggest pieces of of that consideration or to consider their right. Speaker 3 Yes, and especially boys. So research suggests that boys attach learning to movement, meaning that they're most likely more likely to remember information if it's connected to a physical action. And so that's because movement can help keep their brains alert and engaged during that time, preventing them from dropping into rest states during that time. So movement not only a focus and memory but it also helps boys feel good as it can simulate the release of feel good neurochemicals like dopamine and so on and so forth. So furthermore, physical activity can reduce stress and calm the mind and body. So why on earth would we continue circle time? And they're sitting there. Especially for these boys that need to be up and moving, to be actively engaged and for their brains to be turned on. Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah. And, and when we view that movement as misbehavior, we send them really confusing messages about their body. And they're they're, you know, we're also, I think part of our job in these early years is to help them interpret those cues and messages that their body is delivering. And and when we're saying what you're, you know, essentially what your brain is telling you you need right now is wrong and makes me upset, that's a really, I don't know. That's a really heavy experience to put on children this age who are trying to figure it out. Speaker 3 It is very much though, and that's why I said it's so important. That's again, that's why I present and I read that long PowerPoint. Speaker 2 That's such a good. Speaker 3 Idea it's it is miserable. It is it's miserable. And I've had to sit through it before and I'm I'm doing the same thing and my brain is not actively engaged. So imagine being three years old and trying to do that. Speaker 2 I, I did, I read some research a couple of years ago and I, I need to find the study because I've, I've referred to it a couple of Times Now and I can't remember who, who did this. But essentially they did a study to see how much of the day children in American childcare centers were expected to be sedentary. And, and when they looked at, I mean, I think they included like travel to and from the center also, like if, whether the parent was driving or using the bus, that sitting time and then they come in and they're expected to kind of sit and do table work or whatever. And then there's circle time and snack and nap and whatever. It was almost 90% of the day that we were expecting children under 5 to be sedentary. And that's not only a mismatch with their development and a mismatch with how they learn, it's harmful, right? And we, we're, we're supposed to do no harm. Speaker 3 I I don't want to sit on my desk all day, no. Speaker 2 None of us do. Speaker 3 I mean, that's awful. And then I mean, think about this. So the average American child spends 4 to 7 minutes a day involved in unstructured play outside. Speaker 2 It's such a small number. Speaker 3 I mean that to me, just that hit me in the soul and I'm like, wow, we have to change things. This is not OK. And then then don't even get me on my soapbox about screen time on top of that I mean. Speaker 2 We are soapbox friendly here at that. Speaker 3 Yes. So I'm like, so if you're, if you're talking about outside play in this unstructured play time and then getting kids up and moving to have their brains actively engaged, but not but moving without something in their hand, without a device in their hand at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 4 year olds are choosing screens over playgrounds. Practical Steps for Rethinking Circle Time and Embracing New Approaches I get that. Speaker 2 Yeah, the people designing the screens know that too. And yes. Speaker 3 Exactly. It's it's, it's very intentional. Speaker 2 Yes, yeah, I I just was reminded as we were talking about movement too. I, so I teach at a college now before that I was at a, a language speech language preschool at Purdue. And we did it. We did a community time in the morning. It was maybe 15 minutes, tops. We read a story, we sang a lot of songs. We, we got up and we danced. But the children could choose to be there or choose to not be there and they could sit however they want it. You know, they could be however they wanted to. And I just remember this little boy, Asher, who was four, and he was laying on his tummy listening to the story and a little girl sat, you know, too close to him. And he, he just kept saying, she's so close, she's so close. And I finally stopped and I said, Asher, you could move. Yeah, when I can. Like they, they. He just was so used to waiting for the permission or or relying on the control that usually just part of that setting that he he forgot or didn't know or had never been invited to just get up and move himself if he wanted to. Speaker 3 And it was, wait, I can do that. I know it was. Speaker 2 Such a light bulb moment. And then we had one, one little guy who would never come to the circle, but he would just walk back and forth. But he always could tell you what had happened, you know, And if it if it wasn't grabbing them, we just ended it. OK, This isn't working for us this morning. Will our community time this morning will be 5 minutes long and that's good. Speaker 3 Exactly. Well, and that's that's what I tell people I'm like, OK, I'm not opposed to singing songs and being silly and dancing during that time. I'm just saying not making a mandatory for everybody and not doing that traditional right. Everybody must come. Everybody must sit crisscross applesauce and you may not touch your friends to the left and your friends to the right and you have to be actively engaged. 123 eyes on me, you know, these, these shenanigans that I was taught 25 years ago, you know, I'm like, yeah, it just doesn't make sense to me because there's there's no way I want to sit there and even do that for 15 minutes. Speaker 2 Anymore it's work for all of us, and that's we all end up feeling a little bit frustrated by the end. I think so. So what now? I, I, I asked you what advice you would give for doing it differently or, or or whatever. But what if someone listening is saying, yeah, that's great, I'd love to do it that way, but my director won't let me or my Co worker would just be unpleasant for the whole day if I tried to change. You know, all those little pressures that we feel when we're a classroom teacher? Speaker 3 I would say just like we were talking about before, if you must do circle time, make it optional. And you know, if you if you have somebody who wants to sit in the back of the room and turn their chair around and not face you, perfectly fine. If you have somebody who wants to jump on one foot, what you do circle time, perfectly fine. If you have somebody who wants to spin and twirl and do somersaults where you do circle time, OK, that's fine. Let everybody do their own version and whatever their body feels like doing during that time. And they'll typically burn themselves out if they want to drop on more for the entire time anyway. So, But let them do it in their own way so that we're being respectful of their time and their space while they are there. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I think it's, it's so important that we become curious about what else we could do when we hear things like this. But also really practice explaining why we're making that change or why we do it differently than the traditional idea. Because we could say to, you know, a director maybe, OK, here are the goals that we have for circle time. This is, you know, I know This is why you want me to do circle time in that way, but here's how I meet that goal differently. And here's how I meet that goal differently. Because we're all really creative people, right? We're all usually pretty flexible thinkers when we work with young. When we choose to work with young children, we just have to sort of give ourselves permission to think differently and then practice talking about why we're doing something differently. Speaker 3 Exactly. And I, I don't think you would be an education if you didn't want to do right and, and do right for the betterment of children in the 1st place. And so, you know, even, OK, so if you absolutely have to do circle time and, and your site director saying we have, we still have to do calendar, OK, can you not do it in a small group setting instead and make it really fun and really intentional during that time and break it up into five minute increments during small group instruction and really promote that oral language and. Speaker 2 And you can. Speaker 3 How, how teaching them November works for you, I would love to hear. I would love to hear feedback on that and if they really truly understand what November is. But you know, I would break it up into small group instructions. Speaker 2 And with a small group approach, you can also create those small groups intentionally to be able to meet them individually more more effectively. When you say I've got this whole group of three-year olds, we're and we do it all as a large group, what are we assume is that they should all be on the same 3 year old level? And we know that that's not true. You know, 2 two children with exactly the same birth date could have vastly different developmental needs and levels and abilities. But when you look at a group of three-year olds, you've got that, you know, maybe brand new 3 year old who just moved in from the twos room, but you've also got probably some 4 year olds who are waiting for room in the next, waiting for an opening to move up. That's a wide range to try and meet at once. And we're going to see them, the ones who are readier for that seated work and say, well, these three-year olds can do it, so all three-year olds should be able to do it. And that we have to break away from that too. And going into small groups let's us do that. We can have those younger ones and the older ones and we can change our approach. Speaker 3 And we're getting rid of that concept of what A typically developing 3 year olds looks like because you know, like you said, a very young 3 year old and you know a three-year old is about to turn 4. Those are very different playing fields. But if you're very intentional with your small group instruction that that very young 3 year old, if you put them in a small group with that older 3 year old, they will pick up very, very quickly because they want to be like that cool kid at the table. And they're going to learn so much quicker than you sitting there during circle time saying this is how to do it and so on and so forth. Guess what? They're going to learn from their peers so much quicker. Speaker 2 Yeah, another way to be intentional with those small groups. I'm glad you said that. That's Vygotsky, right? That's that more knowledgeable other. It doesn't always have to be me. It can sometimes be a peer. Yeah, it's just more fun. I think one of the things that makes small group more intimidating is because we also think it all has to happen between 9:00 and 11:00 and and so it's harder to move through several small groups and meet all those goals. But we have a fuller day than that, really. You know, we could be doing it differently than that. Speaker 3 Too. And I think a lot of times we think small group instruction is literally the teacher having to sit there. OK, But the teacher can sit there and plant the seeds and then walk away and let the students become the teachers at that point, increasing that oral language and and those cognitive skills and all those things that can happen at the table naturally. And you just plant the seeds. That's all you have to do. You don't have to sit there and you can do a brief lesson, then walk away and see what happens because it will be magic. Speaker 2 Yes, yeah. We don't have to be in charge of everything. Speaker 3 It could become a disaster too, but it could become magic at the same time. Speaker 2 Yes, and I, I think there's something to be said too for if you want to make this kind of a shift, expect some messy days, right? It's not going to immediately be magic. You know, like you said, there's going to be some growing pains for us and for the children. So starting small, maybe we're not saying, OK, you go in tomorrow and immediately change everything, but but there's going to be messiness. Speaker 3 And move one or two of the the things that you were doing during circle time to small group instruction and see how it goes. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what else did you want to say about Circle Time that I haven't asked you about or that you haven't been able to say yet? Anything else? Speaker 3 I think we've covered most everything. I would just encourage everybody to just think a little bit differently about it. I know if you walk into a traditional classroom, that's what you're going to see, but I just encourage you to just look at it a little bit differently and really reconsider some things that, you know, I was thought 25 years ago that I, I did 25 years ago and just really rethink things because, you know, it, it, it's a different world, you know, and, and we want, we want to make things the best that we possibly can and make this the best experience that we possibly can for our students and prepare them as best as we can for the future. And we do that by truly, truly making things magical in the classroom. And I don't want to sit through even a 20 minute circle time anymore. So no, I wouldn't want a preschooler to do it either. Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. I think you probably have offered folks a lot to think about and probably some fun things that to try. So I love it. I love this conversation. I just, I really love anytime I can have someone on and talk about something that feels sort of transgressive. Speaker 3 It's all been favorable and and I'm OK with that. I would encourage anybody to reach out to me and and just have an open conversation. I welcome that. I love to have a conversation and just create that dialogue for finding some commonality in in our conversation. Yeah, it's really welcome it. Speaker 2 Great. Yeah, I'll include some contact information in the show notes then so folks can find. Great. All right. Thank you, Amy. Speaker 3 Thanks, Heather. Speaker 2 And thanks everybody for listening to another episode of That Early Childhood Nerd. Speaker 1 And that's the show. Now go get your nerd on. has been an Explorations early learning upstairs studio production.