Need for localized sub-national policies to spur ZET adoption in India

A lot of electric vehicle policies being rolled out in emerging markets are happening at the federal or central level. In a country as diverse as India, there is a need for state level policies to catch up, as trade crisscrosses through state borders every single instant. Obviously, putting freight logistics on the concurrent list of items for the country. Moreso, the need for sub-national policies is immediate, as every state has diverse challenges. What's been successful in Delhi and Sierra may not be true for West Bengal or Maraastra or Kanataka. There is definitely a need for localization of these policy handbooks, and we're already seeing a few leading states like Maraastra could draw than Kanataka at all these playbooks. However, rollout of sub-national policies across states appears to be limited. Uncharging with Rijul and Sumit on this very topic, to introduce them, Rijul is a clean transport researcher and advocate focusing on the electrification of trucks in India and Southeast Asia. He's currently working with the UC Davis India ZEV Research Center. Un Sumit is leading projects at climate group on truck electrification across the country along with focusing on developing a coordinated sub-national policy framework to increase the adoption. Climate group is an international not-for-profit with the mission of driving climate action and to do it fast. In transport, one of their flagship programs is EV100+ which aggregates demand around the world from companies for zero-emission trucks. In this episode, we discuss the co-pillars for formulating and deploying sub-national policies for an accelerated adoption of ZDTs in the country. Hey, I'm Abhishek Sinha and I've been working in the EV industry across the globe and have been paid to Wanda and solve for these issues for the better part of my career. I've been in the industry before it was cool and now that EVs are here to stay, I'm recording this podcast, the EV equation to start a public discussion on how this technology has the power to shape social and economic incentives in the coming future. Like every transition, this transition to electric vehicles opens up avenues for disruptions and has the potential to forever alter the way we do things as humans. I've worked in multiple markets right from London to Nairobi and Vietnam to Canada, but I'm starting this journey in my hometown Pune in India and I'm going to be talking to experts, researchers and analysts to uncover insights on how can electric vehicles change the way India moves. Be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts and leave comments if your platform has the feature. Welcome to the show, Samantha and Rijal. Thank you, Vishhek. Thank you, Vishhek. What got you gentlemen over to the emobility side of things? If you want to go for a surgery, Rijal. Yes, so I've been interested in transport since my masters and electric mobility is an up and coming area and a lot of opportunities and avenues so that really got me interested in this. And what about you, Samas? Yes, so basically I'm urban and transport planning practitioner and I've worked in the electric mobility sector after my college days and I'm quite interested in sustainable and low carbon transport and that is how I landed here. Interesting, interesting background gentlemen. Thanks for that. So let's drive straight into our topic today and it's quite a fascinating one, right? So in India we know and we are aware of multiple policies being rolled out at the national level with the latest one, two months or three months ago as we were talking so much was around the PME drive which was making a lot of noise, right? And I'm curious to know what's happening at the state level. As I'm gathering in from what I'm observing there's a lot of action happening in Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra especially in the manufacturing side and in Kerala, Telangana, Delhi we are seeing trials being rolled out with ZDTs so tell us a bit more on what you're observing at the state level. Thank you Abhishek for this important question. So while it's true that PME drive initiative is gaining significant attention which is a national level initiative, a lot of crucial roundwork for electric vehicles adoption and manufacturing is actually happening at the state level in India. Now if you look at national and state level jurisdiction, the seventh schedule of Indian constitution divides legislative powers between the union and the states. This has the union, state and concurrent list. On the union list, union government has power to formulate legislations. On state list, states have power to formulate legislations and on the concurrent list, union and state both have the power to formulate legislation with the union government having a jurist state. So root transport falls under the state list which basically gives the state legislative power to govern it and while states control most of the road transport, the central government also has a say in national highways and vehicle regulations. So as you can see, this decentralized approach is a strength, you know, as states can tailor their policies to their specific needs and local context which gives more effective and targeted rollouts. For example, Tamil Nadu has been aggressively attracting investment in the EV sector. People and major manufacturers are setting up on spanning the production facilities here, covering a wide range of vehicles in each segment. Maharashtra is quite well known for its automotive industry. So you see, the state comments has been actively promoting EV manufacturing through various incentives and policies. You will find both established space and new start setting up shop here. This is done, this in turn helps in contributing to the overall EV manufacturing capacity in India. We are seeing that different states are moving at their own pace and with varying strategies. Some states are leading in manufacturing while others are ahead in adoption. States can learn from each other's experience like peer learning between state to state and adopt policies based on local conditions. This ultimately contributes to a more robust and diverse EV ecosystem across the country. If you look at Tamil Nadu's manufacturing strength and Kerala's impressive adoption rates, we see these demonstrate the tangible impact on state level initiatives. And what are you seeing there, Rachel? What's happening? Thanks for that summit and yeah, over to you, Rachel. So just to add to what summit said, so definitely so if we look at Indian states, for example Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra, they have the geographical size and the population of equivalent to a European country. So the policies at the state level are quite important to complement and support the national policy ecosystem. And a lot of states beginning with Karnataka and now almost all of the Indian states have their own state EV policies through which they are supporting adoption, manufacturing, as well as capacity building. So how the states have also gone into revising their EV policies, a lot of them are doing a second revision as we speak and how they are also building into it the new technological developments that have been taking place. For example, electric trucks that are now coming into the picture and states adopting including them in their EV policies as well. So that has been quite interesting to see and observe. Interesting. And also that's also the case that like not all states are equal. I mean, if you take their GDP, their diversity, their population, consumption patterns, mobility patterns, the city size, I mean, there's so many parameters, right? But what I'm kind of thinking about is like even at a national level, how does one even start coming up with a framework for an electric truck rollout? And especially trucks which are like running from city to city and are all over our country, right? And what I'm wondering is where can some national governments even begin? And what do they copy paste from the Federalists as you were pointing out some it and what do they localize? Yes, where you can see. in the EV policy landscape in India. So the center gives a direction which the states tailor from the national policy framework. This has been the case for the launch of FAME 1 and FAME 2, whereby many states formulated or say revise these state oriented EV policies, taking use from the national scheme. In BME drive, electric trucks were included for the first time with the budgetary allocation of 500 crores for subsidies. Like MHI has recently released the operational guidelines for the same. And you know this marks a big shift from the earlier policies, which were primarily focused on capturing the electrification of two-wheelers, three-wheelers, four-wheelers and electric buses. For example, Maharashtra and Mathipudesh have recently revised the state EV policies too and included the ZDT subsidy and support in revised policy. While MPs provided provisions for electric pilot through state departments or state-owned subsidiaries, Maharashtra has provided direct capital subsidy and support for faster charges in the revised EV policy. And what do we feel the learnings of other states will instill a positive approach in states as will expand their policy base to incorporate BETs? We are already seeing some progressive EV states taking initiatives to promote BETs. For example, Maharashtra, Tamil Lado and Mathipudesh have proposed a fully equipped, certain prominent highways and trade corridors into e-hives with provisions of adequate beside amenities for charging of BETs. Interesting, interesting. I'm just like looking at all these varying things, varying subsidies that are being rolled out at all states, right? And what I'm wondering is like if we were to come up with a state model framework which which climate group has, right? What does this pillar look like? You know, what does this framework look like and how are you designing the, you know, what are the pillars that are anchoring this framework? So the state model policy frameworks basically provides a framework for states to accelerate the adoption of the entities at scale in India. So this framework has been developed by identifying the key policy levels available to sub-national governments and analyzing aligned existing enablers in current EV policies. So for this state model policy framework, there is total five pillars including financial incentives, charging infrastructure, demand aggregation, strategic measures, and capacity building. Okay, okay, okay, that's that's very interesting to note all the policy levels that you work. Line there and let's let's get into that, right? Like one by one. So let's start with with the finance incentives, right? So as you mentioned, finance is one of the main pillars. I want to understand for myself what fiscal incentives are at work here. How do we differentiate what item is eligible for state level subsidies and what is eligible for national level subsidies and what's on the concurrent list? And also my third question, sorry, what sectors or areas are they giving fiscal incentives in? Right? Is it to manufacturing? Is it to buying? Is it to what? So over to you. Yeah, so when we speak of financing of electric vehicles in India, we see that it relies on a blend of national and state level subsidies. These state level subsidies are over and over the national incentives to push adoption and economic viability. National schemes like the FAME 1 and FAME 2 and PME drive offer broad purchase incentives, which state specific specific policies, when there are capital subsidies, tax reliefs, fee waivers, provide additional fiscal and non fiscal incentives to the end users and to the manufacturers. Importantly, these state level subsidies often act as additional support, making the financial viability of electric trucks, particularly medium and heavy-duty models more attractive by being over and over any national level incentives. So this allows states to address local needs, often result in a combined financial advantage for EV bias as seen in Delhi, when state specific top-up incentives alongside the national schemes. So if it say state policy measures, these includes direct capital subsidies, interest of mention on the loan for buying electric trucks, measures related to rebate in state GST, registration fee waivers and toll fee waivers. For example, if I have to explain with example, a diesel truck of 55th and a cost around 40 to 45 lakhs, when electric truck cost around 1 to 1.2 crores. So this is because electric upfront cost is quite high, which needs to be subsidized till the prices go down for electric trucks. That it subsidy can play an important role. If national and state government subsidized by 22 to 30 lakhs, the price difference will reduce and combined with savings from operational cost, electric trucks will be at par with diesel trucks. The other aspect is through increase in battery efficiency and focus on local manufacturing, price will go down in the future and be at par with the diesel counterpart. Now my question back to you. Sumit on this one is and for our international audiences, the translation on the numbers is diesel truck is around 50 to 60 thousand dollars, 45 to 55 lakhs and an electric truck costs around 100 to 120 thousand dollars US dollars. And a subsidy amount that you said would be around 20 thousand dollars as far. That could bring electric battery, BEDs, every time we come up with a new word. So ZDD, BED, they bring them at par with the diesel trucks. Now just a question back to you on this is who plays that subsidy cost and how are you seeing that come around. So that 20 thousand dollar or 30 thousand dollar subsidy that's coming is does the Maraashtra state government come in and say okay, you know, we're going to cover this or does the national state government come in and be like okay, we will do that. How are you seeing that play out across states? So Abhishek, if you see, if you look at it, so currently the PME drive is providing almost 9.3 lakhs of maximum subsidy under this scheme. And what we're proposing, we are asking from state governments to put in more financial incentives for the electric trucks. Right now there is a very limited mention of electric trucks in the state TV policies. And I think only Maraashtra and Madhupadeesh has revised their policy and included the electric truck in their revised TV policies. So this is what we are proposing. The financial incentive from the PME drive subsidy, PME drive scheme is little lesser than what we are expecting. And that is why we are pushing states to adopt this state model policy framework for adoption of battery electric trucks. So as you said, I think they're covering around 10 lakhs, which would be $10,000 and the rest is to be chipped in at a state level. If you're working in Mumbai or you register your truck in Pune, this is what you get. Very, very, very interesting. And okay, thanks for that example actually, some of that really helps things to break down and actually picture things on how the rollout is happening. And changing gears to industrial policy. I think we have pretty good examples of subnational governments like Maraashtra again in Tamil Nadu too, laying out clear incentives for manufacturers to set up base for EV manufacturing in their cities. How can states that are lagging behind play catch up? And what should the focus of the industrial policy at a state level be? Yes, thanks for the question Abhishek. So in fact, I'd like to say that the whole EV transition in India as well as the globe has an industrial policy perspective to it because of how much it would impact existing automobile manufacturing industry. The number of jobs it would create and the number of investment that it would bring into India. So in fact, at the national level, there are many schemes to promote EV and EV manufacturing such as performance linked incentive for auto and auto parts and similarly for advanced chemistry cells which provide support to industries who put in the infrastructure here and start producing EV and EV components. So the states are also taking it seriously and they are also complementing these schemes with a state level industrial policy framework. So they have updated it to include EV and EV component manufacturing as well to provide incentives under their policy framework. So from the analysis that we carried out on the existing EV policy neighborhoods, we found that two, the two most preferential policy levers at a state level for industry has been providing capital subsidy on the fixed assets that the investors put in and also providing tax exemptions for land and electricity to industrial units which fall under the state's jurisdiction. So like Sumit mentioned states like Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu, they have a existing ice manufacturing ecosystem which puts them in a comparative advantage. But there have been states with limited ice manufacturing which have also set a vision for generating investment in EV manufacturing. A good example I'd like to say is Telangana which is through an initiative called Telangana Mobility Valley inviting investment for EV manufacturing testing prototype and have almost secured investment worth Rs 8,000 crores as well. Therefore definitely states have a comparative advantage but new states which are pushing for industry to develop for EV manufacturing, they are curating special incentive schemes and which is encouraging manufacturers to set up their shop in any particular state. Thanks for that, Rajulan. I think you answered my follow-up question already. I was just exactly wondering that I'd like to put about states who do not have a nice manufacturing setup like Maharashtra and Tamil Nadu. And I guess kind of E-mobility is disrupting at all levels so even existing manufacturing hubs now have to protect themselves and still stay lucrative in this new era of E-mobility or these clean vehicles that are going to be developed. And very interesting to see the other point that you mentioned was the two policy levels so direct capital subsidies and taxes, tax exemptions, what I'm wondering is how does import duties fit into this? Would it come into state level or would it come at a national level? So import duty would come at a national level because it's central government scheme but then the benefits actually accrue to the manufacturers who set up shop in the state were able to import raw materials at a cheaper rate and then do the value addition and then sell across the country. Yeah absolutely and I think apologies for the frivolous question there because what I'm getting what I'm trying to get at is because especially with all the special zones that are being special economic zones that are being set up in our country SEZ and are you seeing any that kind of development happening for E-Vs in any of the states? You mentioned Telangana but Telangana mobility valley are you seeing any other interesting developments which are offering special incentives and even more lucrative incentives? Yeah so some states like Harastra and Tamil Nadu are also giving lucrative incentives to specifically E-V manufacturers so quite recently big NAMIs E-V manufacturer VinFast has opened a factory in Tamil Nadu which they aim to develop as export hub as well for South Asia and other markets and so it's really a mix of what kind of ecosystem already exists how willing the state governments are to invite more investments and create jobs in the state. Thank you. Thanks, Rajul and one last follow-up question and industrial policy and and then we move to other pillars because we have a lot of ground to cover here which is is auto components IU because really I recently did a webinar on E-V auto components and the challenges being faced on the ground there there are also like you said the same direct capital subsidies being rolled out there especially for batteries. How are you seeing states or auto component manufacturers for trucks versus heavy duty vacancies right across India? So I think there are some of the examples where states are offering tax holidays and developing infrastructures such as regular power supply so connectivity to ports connectivity through railven network and interestingly one of the state is also giving a subsidy on the freight transportation required from the port to the factory. So these are some of the ways that states are inviting battery manufacturers and there has been quite an interest from players like Amar Rajya to set up shop and start producing sales here in India. It's very interesting insight thanks thanks for that, Rajul. Moving on to our third pillar and quite an important one charging infrastructure. I think in another episode with climate group you were just discussing on how charging is becoming a big barrier for ZEP adoption. So and I think as bigger the vehicle gets the charging question becomes super crucial. So number one what's happening at the national level on charging? Number two charging can be a very hyper local issue as well. What roles are city governing bodies and states taking up and I'm referring to public charging infrastructure here and also please share any successful examples of this at you know as it may not be on my radar. Yes I completely agree with you Abhishek on charging infrastructure being a critical piece on ZEP adoption. So just to answer your first question on the national level at as of this moment we have about 32,000 or public charges installed but when it comes to fast charging only about 10% of them are capable of fast charging rated above 60 kilowatt and as you rightly said that when the vehicle gets bigger charging becomes crucial because the battery size increases but in the case of trucks there is one more nuance on the location of these charging stations along the major threat corridors in India. So the ministry of heavy industries at the national level under the PME rights scheme it has allocated about rupees 2000 crores to provide as subsidies for developing charging infrastructure and the draft guidelines propose providing this subsidy for up to 80% of the cost of developing the upstream infrastructure of these stations. So those with that will include the cables the transformers that you need from the substation to the charging station location that is there and from consultations and studies it has been found out that that is a higher cost as compared to the actual charger equipment cost that we set up. So the government has decided to in fact subsidize that. The state governments like you said in your second question the state governments and they have focused on a couple of policy levers I I would say from our analysis which is one is providing a concessional tariff for EV charging stations specifically and also providing capital subsidy on the TV supply equipment for charges. So this in fact adds up quite nicely when the central government is providing subsidy for the upstream infrastructure and the state government provides subsidy for the charging equipment that we want to set up. So both of these crucial components can be accessed at a subsidy and and help in developing more charging stations. The city governments have a role in terms of designating land because that is a major cost component in urban areas at least. And there is also a need of better coordination with the power distribution companies to get that upstream power connection to ensure the grid stability and to be able to make the charger functional all through the day even after getting it installed there. In terms of examples, I'd say many corridors such as Bangalore Chennai, Pune, Hyderabad, Delhi, J.Pur, have seen deployment of charging infrastructure by state units such as the oil marketing companies as well as by private charge point operators such as Charged Zone, deploying fast charges for buses, for trucks, as well as charging for cars, etc. So there has been quite a momentum and quite interest to solve this critical piece and I believe we are getting better. - Rijul, follow a question and this may be a stupid question but I think just trying to figure out things on the ground is when trucks do run and they do take the national highway sometimes they take up state highways, sometimes they take up local highways. And is there currently a fight happening on who's going to install a charger where and who's going to be eligible to pay for that subsidy on each highway or is there a collaboration and a complimentary style happening there like you pointed out. But let's say apart from the main highways, apart from the national highways, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, so I would say the efforts are complimentary still because we are in terms of fast charges on national highways we have just begun and we need to do a lot more. And so how I think this works is that the states can access the national subsidy on the roads that they would prefer to set up chargers and the states can provide their subsidy to the charges that their companies, public companies or private companies are willing to set up. So definitely the interest is more on national highways first because they carry the bulk of the threat movement. But eventually we are also moving to important state highways which also carry a good amount of threat traffic. And yeah, there has been quite a lot of interest from private CPUs as well on this. - Interesting. I'm wondering how those incentives actually play out and what the charging infrastructure would look like in five years from now. Very interesting. Something that you were bringing along as you were talking about this was freight corridors. And if I were to take that component of our conversation up. So these green freight corridors have been a pivotal focus for pilot deployments for ZETs. And my question is what happens when a green corridor crosses two states? For example, the Radistan and Delhi example that he just gave, Delhi Jaipur highway. And secondly, how are we incentivizing states to identify green corridors within their own territories? I mean, just like the state highway is that I was setting about if you could shed a couple of minutes on that. So I'd say that the corridor approach is quite crucial and a systematic way to sort of prioritize charging infrastructure development and make those corridors ready for ZETs specifically. So in terms of identification of these corridors, so they are prominently live between the major industrial areas, manufacturing areas and on the one end and the major demand areas on those particular nodes. So the movement is from the industrial area to the demand node and vice versa. And so greening these corridors would provide charging infrastructure and allow movement of electric trucks along these corridors. When it comes to two states having a common corridor, so they're the national government authorities like the National Highway and the national health authorities like India or there's an organization for national highways for EVs, they come into the picture and they sort of plan and pitch for making those highways EV ready. For example, the Delhi Jaipur highway that we are talking about is equipped with charges where the oil marketing companies have also deployed charges on their stations as well as in which EV has deployed charges across that route. So state support is also coming in the form of tariff, which is state component and giving a concessional tariff for a time of use tariff is also supporting the movement and lowering the operating costs of these electric trucks even further. But currently there are no existing provisions to sort of incentivize the states on green corridor identification, but this is something that can be looked into and can be taken into consideration by the central government. Thanks for that, Riju. I think that example of Delhi Jaipur and the, as you mentioned, there's another stakeholder in here, NHEVs, which are quite looking into it. So that's very interesting. So methodologies, we've overlooked you for a while and just got deeper into this green corridor conversation. So let me point a question at you, and which brings us to the fifth pillar of our conversation, right, which is the biggest one I feel is demand aggregation. And, you know, well, climate group is quite known for its demand signaling, globally with their EV 100 and EV 100 plus campaigns. And what is the state level equivalent for this in India? And what are you looking at for is climate group going to be launching another campaign within India for the state? Yeah, so climate group have global campaigns like EV 100 for transport, R100 for renewable energy, EP 100, concrete zero and C zero etc. But for transport, we have EV 100 and that's it's a global campaign. We are running it successfully in India as well. So we work with businesses and cooperates that the demand side companies are supporting the decarbonization agenda. And they're putting hand in hand with national and state comments agenda of decarbonizing and reducing the emissions from their end. So here we're looking at aggregating the demands of electric trucks, so private players, shippers and the state owned enterprises. This not only creates strong signal for OEMs, but also show scalability signal to the OEMs. So what we are looking at, we are looking for aggregating the demands from all the stakeholders who are into the EV ecosystem. And signaling is strong signal from for OEMs so that they can be ready and they can produce more models in India. And that can faster the adoption of electric trucks. For example, we are currently working with our member companies like Ikea, J SW, and Flipkart for electric truck deployment. And currently it's in pilot stage. We are currently looking at the success of this pilots and maybe full-scale deployment support to our members, member companies. So on your second question on state level equivalent for this in India. So we're also working with sub-dacial governments, the state governments in India and we're supporting them to foster the climate action. We are also supporting like this with the state model policy framework is also supporting the adoption of zero emission threats. What we are providing under this are multiple list of policy measures which can easily be adopted or can be put in their state EV policies to revise EV policies and add Zedities in that. And that will anyway bring the whole policy ecosystem in a place at state level for adoption of Zedities. Go ahead and policy making in our country maybe, maybe quite looked at you know and we should look at our previous examples as well. But what I'm wondering so much is like, what he said is like, for example, like if you look at prosperous states like Maharashtra and Karnataka, right, they would obviously have more demand. So more goods on more trucks are entering and delivering there from both areas, both east and west. But what about states like Assam Tripura, you be heard, right? And how are we managing demand there because Delhi, Jaipur highway would always be very busy but compared to you know, a best thing called to Kohati highway, Calcutta to Kohati highway. Now, just kind of trying to get your opinion on how to be balanced that demand out and make sure that states do not get left behind. Yeah, so if you can see, there are few states who are good in manufacturing who have very strong and economical manufacturing basis and there are few states who are not into manufacturing of Zedities or EVs, but they are having good in, they're, they're good in adoption of EVs or for example, Zedities. So it's not about lagging behind, we are giving a concentric approach or if we can say we're giving a wholesome approach to all the states. So with states are good in manufacturing, they can pick the policy levels which are good for manufacturing or good for supporting the manufacturers. The states which are good in adoption are playing more tricks. They can adopt the policy levels or policy measures which are good for you know, the end users to subsidize and give other sort of benefits or non fiscal incentives to the end users. So it's about approach how we are dealing with and secondly, it depends on state to states like I mentioned earlier as well. If the state is manufacturing, manufacturing state, so manufacturing positive policy measures can be taken and which states are good in adoption. Where the end users can be benefited through the incentives, be it fiscal or non fiscal. No, interesting. I think you, you covered those points really well. So but thank you gentlemen for elaborating on on these pillars and as we are moving to the close excitement of our episode. I think this has been very, the state model policy framework has been quite useful way of thinking about harmonizing ZDT policies for a rollout in our country. But everything is not rosy in the EV world as you see it. So let's spend some time on understanding what are the challenges to its deployments in the coming years. So if you look at current scenario, so the ZDTs are having high upfront cost lack of availability of fast public charging stations and access to low cost finance also. And there are other challenges as well. If you look at the rare earth materials import dependency, it's crucial in bringing down the cost factor of electric and battery as well. And if you look at other challenges, so there are lack of unified charging tariff along national highways or state highways that creates a difference in operational cost of the electric trucks. And some of the transition in technology at fast pace is creating doubts in the mind of end users. So I think these are the major challenges. And one more to add, I think somewhere there is I think more on the stakeholder side like how are you seeing buy in across states like as you are talking to all the stakeholders, different stakeholders, state level departments, discount departments, all of these different departments, how are you seeing their buy into ZDTs because there's still such an ascent technology right and still yet to give a benefit. Yeah, so if you talk about discombs, so discombs are trying to streamline the process of putting the charging, the electricity connections nearby to the charging stations. For example, the ST line connection nearby the charges along highways. They're also streamlining the process of getting the EV ready connections. They're also looking at the tariffs and they're trying to subsidize the electricity tariff for EVs wherever it is possible. And if we look at other stakeholders, for example, OEMs or logistic service providers. So for logistic service provider, they're also willing to say, for example, increase the adoption of or uptake of electric trucks. They are looking at somewhere like the cost, if the cost will get down, it will be easy to operate the electric truck. And they're also looking at the pace, how the technology is transitioning and how things will evolve in this space. And if you look at OEMs, so OEMs are also getting hand in hand with the industry globally. So the innovations around the globe are getting incorporated and the OEMs are getting for more models in India now. Absolutely. And Richard, would you have something to add to that? Yes, so I think so much to line out the challenges very well here. So just to add, I think in terms of stakeholders, I think we would need to bring all of them together, whether it's OEMs for model availability, logistic service providers to adopt these trucks or making the government or departments also realize the benefits and getting the power infrastructure ready and to bring them together and to see that it has sort of benefits for everyone and looked at the challenges as sort of an opportunity to be a part of this technology transition and the huge potential that the entities have in terms of improving the India's energy security, reducing the import bill on fuel and also reap the benefits of India's grid getting greener and greener day by day. Yeah, absolutely. The coordinated communication campaign is definitely to get these kind of biases, definitely necessary and I think we're doing a good job so far. So my last question to you gentlemen for today would be is what are some short medium and long term wins that you are looking at for an accelerated ZEDD roll out in India? So if you talk about short term wins, so scaling up of ongoing pilots along major freight corridors of the country and purchase incentive for ZEDDs at national and sub-national level which we spoke earlier is very prominent and I think that will push the adoption more and I think these will be the short term wins. And in addition to that, I would say that the medium and the long term wins would be to sort of develop charging infrastructure deployment framework at the national level like the U has called something called the alternative fuel infrastructure regulation. Along with some supply side regulations like fuel economy standards for OEMs which would push them actually to develop more models to innovate to achieve economies of scale and then which eventually would lower the costs of buying these trucks and would this would shift the competition actually from the consumers and accessing subsidy to the OEMs in awaiting and putting more money in developing affordable better quality products. So yeah, I would say that would be something to look forward to. Well, thanks. Thanks for painting that picture, General Men. And thank you for a very informative conversation. And I think the points that you brought out especially at the state level on and how you broke it down, right? Like these are the policy labels that are available to states today that they can implement and accelerate this rollout. And I think on how we close right, I think a whole need for a coherent communication is needed to get by and from all stakeholders, including the private and public sector actors. So yeah, I hope that the coming years, especially the coming one year, I think 2026 would be quite crucial for Zeddy rollout and what we could learn from that. So with that, thank you once again, Summit and Rijal for coming onto the show. It was a pleasure having you. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Hey there. Thank you for sticking around to the end. And I hope you enjoyed that conversation and found it insightful. I'd appreciate if you could rate this episode or leave your comments if the platform allows you. And let me know what projects and topics you'd like to hear about next and I'd be happy to cover them. Catch you on the next episode and don't forget to follow the show.