NBA Star Kevin Love: The Breakdown That Became a Breakthrough

(soft piano music) - Lemonada. - It was after halftime and I could tell something was wrong when the game started and I'm just, you know, keep struggling to find breath and focus on the play in front of me. I couldn't focus two feet in front of me. I just said I have to go and just ran back to a familiar place which was the locker room. R8 in breathing continues to, you know, gotta hide your cadence and I think it's getting more and more scary. I feel like I can't connoxiate my brain. I'm thinking like something might be wrong with my heart. - It's November 5th, 2017 and Kevin Love is nearly a decade into an all-star career in the NBA. But what happens on the court that fateful night will change not only the way he plays the game, but his entire life is having a panic attack on the court in the middle of a packed arena like what's gonna happen? Are gonna die? - Everyone's gonna see this. - Right, like everybody's gonna see this and then I sprint into our athletic trainers' office just fall on the ground and just like, you know, pass out. Now my safe space in the basketball court is now con. Now it's all anxiety and fear to the max. - This event would set Kevin on a path. It would lead not only to his healing journey, but to a new calling as a mental health advocate. The first step was coming to terms with the darkness, that dominated his mind from an early age and followed him throughout his whole career. - You know, perception is such an interesting thing from the outside. The perception is, oh, this guy has everything and everything looks good and he's an all- NBA player and he's an all-star one, you know, Olympic gold medal and, you know, it's so much going for him, but at the same time, like literally, everybody's going through something. - Yeah. - And going through something that you can't see. - Kevin's story is one of resilience. And even though he's a very famous basketball star, I promise you, his story is so relatable. For anyone who's struggled in silence, anyone who's felt the crushing weight of expectations, and for anyone who's trying to make sense of their lives and their career, this episode is for you. - The hardest thing maybe in my entire career to reconcile with is that I have not enjoyed it enough. - What do you tell your younger self? - Yeah, and we say nothing on just like the things we don't say. (upbeat music) - Before we start the show, I want to share that the end of this episode, I will be giving everyone watching and listening and in enough bracelet. The enough bracelet has been a great tool for me on my journey and sharing with others is one of my greatest joys. So enjoy this conversation and stick around at the end for details on how you can receive an enough bracelet from me as well. - Kevin, welcome to the show. - I appreciate you having me. Happy to be here. - One of the things that has really helped me and my healing journey was going back to childhood and identifying this limiting belief that I had and that was that I was never enough. I'm curious, what are some of the messages you might have heard growing up that possibly led to that panic attack in 2000? - Yeah, I think connecting the dots, looking back has been very helpful for me. It hasn't necessarily all been happy, you know? I don't think it always is and it's not linear. There's certainly bumps along the road and lessons that I've learned and even doing that. And for me, it was unpacking and still unpacking 30 plus years of expectation. And I always talk about trying to achieve my way out of depression, to achieve my way out of feeling these dark spells that I'd have for weeks and even months and primarily throughout my teens and my 20s. And, you know, if I really look back and you know, start it from early childhood, it would be that. It would be unpacking a father having played in the NBA, somebody who expected a lot from me, somebody who was hard on me, loving, but hard on me. You know, I've had to understand the duality and that both things can be true at the same time. Like, you know, it was really hard and really tough, you know, having a father and being a big fish in a small pond where expectations were so high on me. Yet I still feel like I had, and know I had a wonderful childhood. And in a lot of ways got what I needed and was nurtured. - Yeah, I mean, I think that expectation is something I so relate to. Like, I grew up a very competitive tennis player, you know, as one of the top players in Texas and in the country and I just put so much pressure on myself. - Yeah. - You know, and I think I was now looking back and unpacking like you, you know, I also had a very loving father, but also there was pressure to perform. It just was part of our culture and growing up, you know, and I look back and I think, you know, you know, would I have changed things? I don't think so, but I do wish I learned some of the tools that I've learned now to have dealt with that pressure, you know. One of the things I was curious to ask you about today was, you know, before the panic attack, you know, you still were dealing with some anxiety and depression for many years. When did that first start? Like when did you, like looking back as you unpacked it, are you able to say, oh, wow, I was 12, or I was 10, or I was 20, is there a moment you can remember? - Probably 13, maybe 14 years old. - Wow. - And where I grew up in Portland, Oregon, right outside of Portland, Oregon, we start middle school then. - So, yeah. - You start understanding what it is to be self-conscious and you know, it was right at that, probably 15, 16 years old where it really took on a life of its own and I didn't know what the hell to do with it. I didn't have any of the tools. I didn't know what resources were. All we learned was about physical health and, you know, sexual health, but we never learned about, you know, what was between the ears and our mental health. We just never had a space where we were allowed to do that and especially around our peers, like we were sent down the hallway and it's like, hey, get with your counselor, get with the principal, vice principal, whoever it may be that is somebody who's kind of removed in a way from everyone. So, you know, if you ended up going there, people are kind of looking like, okay. - What's wrong with you? - Yeah, I mean, and that makes it worse. - Way worse. - I mean, so that's the thing, I have an 11 year old boy and, you know, especially with boys, you know, I mean, anything that is connected to any weakness or being different, I mean, he, I mean, now it's like the phase where I have to like ask him what I can wear when I take his friends to a basketball game or something because it's like, he gets embarrassed by the easiest thing and you should realize it's not that there's anything wrong with him. It's just that's the age you're trying to fit in and so if you're going to ask the counselor for, you know, hey, I'm struggling mentally, I mean, there's no way back then and today it's a little bit better but still, I mean, this is why we're working so hard with enough and you're working Kevin and Love Foundation is helping break that stigma, helping it be okay. I mean, what I did was I numbed through tennis. So like, I became like all I did is play tennis. I mean, literally like, my friends would go to the movies on Friday night and I would go to the park and hit against the wall. I mean, literally until 10 o'clock a night and somehow no one thought that that was a problem. And so I'm assuming that basketball became your vehicle for not having to deal with these feelings. Is that correct? - 100% correct and it was a safe space for me. It's a lot of ways. - 'Cause you're good. - It still is because like, certainly it was a safe haven, a place where if what, no matter what was going on, I could always go there knowing that it would be a way to escape for me. Was it the healthiest relationship? - Probably not, but again, I believe that it was a driving force to me and it was, you know, it hurts so good type of mentality too. - Sure. - If I'm in pain or I'm feeling down or feeling anxiety, I didn't always knew that I could step between those two lines or I could go outside to my front yard where we had a basketball hoop or I could go to the local park and I could just set myself and ground myself within basketball. - And I mean, I think you can have a healthy relationship and I think by no means do I want to say that for people who are listening, that love their work, entrepreneur, CEOs, you know, or even young people who are athletes, like you can have a healthy relationship with your hobbies or your passions or whatever. But if it becomes the thing that is the crutch, it can also be the thing that can undo you. And I feel like for me and my story, you know, tennis was that and then business and then Tom's. And I now see that I was constantly chasing wanting to feel enough. And like so the, especially Tom's was like the greatest drug in the world for that because, you know, I was on the cover of all the magazines. I gave a hundred million children shoes. Everyone kept telling me that I was enough. I was great because I did this to help people. But then when I sold the company. And that, that's the identity. - There goes the identity. There goes the drug because now I have no external validation. I'm living in the mountains, snowboarding. No one knows who I am, more cares. And that's when it really came crashing down for me, which now I look back and I'm so thankful because it led me on this healing journey. But I see this a lot with athletes I talk to. And especially retired athletes, like their whole life. I mean, they're on top of the world. And they never, they sweep all the mental health stuff, any anxiety, any depression, any childhood trauma. They just sweep it under the rug. they retire, and they've now, have lost their purpose, they're not connected to their community, and all the stuff starts coming up. So you've already done a lot of work, thankfully. But I mean, you are, at some point, going to retire. - Sure. - I mean, how do you think about that? Is it scary or are you, how you prepare for something like that? - It definitely scares me. I've had to come to grips with athletic mortality, more so now in the last probably two years than I have in the last 20. - Okay. - And, you know, everything, I feel like brought me here for a reason, and brought us here for a reason for the greater good, right? For people to understand that they are enough, and they're part of a larger community, and something bigger than themselves. But for me, it's certainly like having the Kevin Love Fund, you know, back in 2017, having that panic attack in 2018, starting the Kevin Love Fund, like that has given me purpose and a legacy piece outside of basketball, so I go to what I'm done. And then also finding balance within several different interests or mediums or hobbies that I have outside of basketball. So that when I lose my identity as a basketball player, in terms of like putting a jersey on, like I might work in a front office someday, or I might work with an organization at some capacity, but I won't entirely, you know, lose that sense of identity just because I'm not playing anymore. I had a very, you know, had that, you know, that strivers curse, and always talk about like dangling something right outside of what I consider success, because it would just never be enough, never be enough. And then, you know, I felt like achieving something else or getting another accolade or reaching a different height would then cure me, or I wouldn't be depressed anymore by my anxiety. Yeah, it's achievement, for sure, that all of that would go away. But then my brain would go back to the same level that it was at prior, and it just moved away so fast, and I thought, okay, push it to the side, what's next? What's next, what's next? And when that happens, like, you know, that anxiety heightens or depression is, you know, reestablished itself from dormancy, and then you're left with the same brain that you've always had, and you haven't done any of the work. So for me, I feel like I have done the work and setting myself up after basketball. Therefore, you know, I hope to, I'm still gonna go through it. There's still gonna be a time where, you know, I feel like I've lost someone, or there's like a death. - I mean, without a doubt. - Without a doubt. - Because I've been doing this since I was five or six years old, right? - But I think I organized basketball for over 30 years now. But hopefully the difference is, is when you go through that period now, you don't have the fear. I think the fear, anyone who's had a mental health crisis, a major panic attack, I mean, you know, severe depression, suicidality. I find that if you don't have the tools in the support group, then when you're going through something tough, it can be really scary that it's gonna be that intense again. And now that you've done the work and you have the support and you have purpose beyond basketball with the Kevin Love Fund, I think that you're gonna be set up to ride that storm. And it's gonna be a storm. - For sure. - Yeah, it'll evolve and things will take their place over the course of time. But I do, and I am proud of myself. I hate looking in the rear view, 'cause it's like, you know, I've always felt like, oh, it's complacency, but I've given myself, I keep using the word grace. - I love that word too. - A little bit more grace and understanding, like, it's okay to do that. We mentioned connectland dots looking back to childhood. It helps for my understanding and helps tell a story in that way to where that, it makes sense. It makes more sense. So therefore, I do feel like a lot less fear as you mentioned that word fear. I feel a lot less fear than I otherwise would had I not done these things working up to this point. - Couple of things that I'm hearing from you that I just wanna repeat is, you know, if you are potentially, you know, heading towards retirement or you are, you know, having other hobbies, having built that support group, you know, having things to look forward to, I think, is such an important part of what, right? - Happiness is having something to look forward to. - Yeah, I mean, there's three things to be present, right? You have to, and there has to be that balance that I talked about where it's like, I'm not putting all my eggs anymore into the basketball basket. - Yeah, I mean, it's like unhealthy, 'cause if that's going wrong, I have nothing else. That's what made me very depressed early in my career. It's like, when I got hurt or I wasn't playing well or, you know, I just didn't feel like I was adding value to the world. So I had quite literally nothing else, but it is having something to look forward to 100%. - Right, and the three things I heard this year day, I said, the three keys to happiness is having someone to love, something to work on, like that you feel purpose, and something to look forward to. Right, and so you have a great family, so you're check off there, you've got the Kevin Love Fund, which we're gonna get into in a minute, which is a lot of purpose. You're now a founding partner of enough, which I'm super happy about, and then you know, and then you have stuff to look forward to. And so I think that that's really great. So I wanna go back to the beginning of your career. You know, you, I think you turned pro at 19, is that right? - 19, played my first game at 20. - Yeah, okay, and so you were with Timberwolves for six seasons on fire. You had a lot of success early on. Like, what did that feel like? After dealing with some of that anxiety and darker thoughts in your teens, now you're on top of the game, kick and ask, like what did that feel like, and how did that affect? Was that good for the mental health? Did it help kind of, you know, put some of the negative thinking aside, or were you still struggling during that time? - I was definitely still struggling during that time, and I think it's crazy to hear, like, I just, - 100% of it. - So many people think - I was so in my darkest days, 20 years old, on the Timberwolves. Like, there's no way this guy was struggling. And that's where, you know, perception is such an interesting thing. I'm sure we'll get into it more later, but like, you know, that's what had me really start the Kevin Love Fun too, is like, from the outside, the perception is, oh, this guy is everything, and everything looks good, and he's an all NBA player, and he's an all-star, he won, you know, Olympic gold medal, and, you know, it's so much going for him, but at the same time, like, you know, like I spoke of, like, my article is literally, everybody's going through something, like, and going through something that you can't see. - It's invisible, that's one thing that I think people have to understand, like, if you had a good friend, and they got a car accident, right? And they had, like, broken leg, broken arm, like, immediately take him to the hospital, immediately you make sure that, like, the family doesn't leave the side, and they get out, they do physical therapy, they get to miss work, no one's giving them a hard time for not taking out the trash or helping with the kid's homework, but with mental illness, it's invisible, right? And so it's so hard if you're going through it. I mean, I went to the severeest depression for two years, and was, and people like, get over it. Like, you have these great kids, and it's money in this house, and it's like, it doesn't matter. - No, it doesn't matter. - So, was this something that you were talking to others about, and did you have a therapist, or were you just all kind of keeping it in here, and channeling it to-- - You know, I had to make baskets. - Same mindset was channeling it, and, you know, for better or for worse, but, you know, I was compartmentalizing. That's, at least I was doing my best, right? Like, there were a lot of times where I was not hard to read at all, low energy, no eye contact, shame shivers. Like, didn't want to talk to anybody. - I remember this myself. - Always just, like, walking around, perpetually tired, emotionally exhausted, nothing to give outside of, you know, putting on a fake facade, which is like, it's the most exhausting thing. It's, you know, I'm gonna talk about playing a character. I was playing a character outwardly, and wasn't, you know, self-conscious, and wasn't able to be, you know, myself as a person, or emotionally, and I wasn't free or authentic, and who I was. I, like, I wasn't comfortable in my own skin. So, the only place where I felt like I could do that was on the basketball court. So, I had to channel that I had to achieve. I had to do these things to have any self-worth, and worth to, you know, the basketball world, which was at the time what meant most to me. - But what about when you got injured? 'Cause I was really-- - But that was the darkest time. - Yeah, I mean, that's when you had to play 18 games, I mean, that's a real thing. And I just, for anyone who's listening to this or watching this, if you are in that dark place, the most important thing is to talk to someone. Like, I mean, just if you do anything, just call a friend and tell them the truth. Because I know that when I was in that space, the only reason I'm above the ground is I knew how bad it was getting, and I started talking to people. - Right. - But it sounds like you just suffered it by yourself. - You know, it still goes around a lot of times. - They got-- - They got stir at the ceiling with a wall type of guy. - Oh my God. - And, you know, it just, in a lot of ways, that was me trying to, all right, if I am going to step outside, if I am going to, you know, face these 20,000 plus people arenas and be able to give all my energy to this and nothing else that I need to just sit in a dark room in my bed and make sure that I eat, make sure that I fuel, make sure that I get my treatments, but just be in this dark room by myself with thoughts that were extremely unhealthy. So like, when the game is taken away from you and you're not on the road with the team, and you're by yourself, you have no creative outlet. You have no physical, like you just don't have anywhere. to turn. So like, you know, your mind, you know, starts playing tricks on you. And especially when you don't have anywhere to be vulnerable, you don't feel like you have anybody to reach out to. And, you know, you start having suicidal thoughts and suicidal ideation. You just can't control it. And it's just this negative feedback loop from hell that you just don't have the tools to know how to face. So I've been there a number of times. And, you know, unpacking and unloading that stuff with my therapist, I've, you know, started to control it and understand a much better way. I wish, you know, that people always ask me, you know, what I would tell my younger self or my 15 year old self. That was my next question. So, yeah, it's, I mean, what if someone's, if someone's in that space right now, I mean, this is the reason I'm doing the podcast. Yeah. Like, I mean, I am literally only doing this podcast for people who might be suffering, might be stuck, might be having those thoughts because when I was having them, there, I couldn't find this conversation. And so assuming someone listening or watching having those thoughts, like, what do you tell that person or what do you tell your younger self? Yeah. And I always say, nothing haunts us like the things we don't say. Great. Nothing haunts us like the things we don't say. Like to say, nothing haunts us like we don't say, but that's just me. That's fine. Yeah. This is one of those. I'm an ex what if I came from a four letter home. I like, I like that. Nothing haunts us like we don't say. I'm going to call that's what we're going to call it a, in honor of McConaughey. Yeah. I would call that a group to sell. You know, he says, he's not to sell, you know? So that's a note to sell. So you have to talk about it. No, that was definitely it. And then even on my drive over here, I was, I was talking about like, at least with, with men or young boys, I feel like we've always been celebrated for like beating our emotions in a submission. Like just bury it or beat it down and like, look at me. It's almost like when people are like, well, I didn't sleep at all last night. Look at me or I got three, four hours of sleep. It's like, do that's not cool. That's it. Trust me as soon as you get older. It's not really cool. Yeah. And the, you know, the emotions like you get asked, oh, how are you feeling? Like, how are you really feeling where it was like, I've always done this too. It's, it's, you know, I feel fine. And then the other extreme is like, I feel angry. And there's like no other words or no other language to be able to express yourself. Like, no, I feel this way. And this is why I'm feeling under this is what's going on in my life. Like, I was in that same, you know, masculine, male driven, you know, whether it be sports or just in your youth or in your teens as you get into your 20s. Like we're not, we were never taught to feel that way. We were never taught to be vulnerable or or practice empathy or we would, you know, a lot of times like make fun of it or like an offload hurt thinking that like, oh, I'm going to hurt that next person. So I can't get hurt knowing that for sure. And I always say like, I wasn't a bully by any means. But man, I have like, I talk about like the shame shivers and feeling a certain way. Like I, I go back to high school. I'm like, man, why did I do that? I'm like, I just, I, and I've, I'm some of the people I've, I'm whether it be a teammate or somebody that I went to school with because I, you know, as a basketball player that had was had so much, you know, influence and, and was, was, was well known in the state, but also across the country. Like I, I do feel like I just wish, you know, in, in hindsight, and I've grown and done a lot like I could have been, I could have done so much better to help enrich and, and, and help people's lives. But I'm very grateful that those, you know, a lot of those same people that I've come across and, and you know, even with my dad passing last year, I was home for a long time. I was able to make peace with that home because I was able to have those conversations. That's such a blessing. It was such a blessing. And that's a big part of healing. And healing. Just in healing like you're wrong. Yeah. I was just protecting myself. Yeah. I was tunnel focused on what was I trying to achieve. And in doing that, I heard some people and really, is that okay? No. No. But how you deal with it, how you go back and reconcile. Yeah. For, that's how you get rid of the shame. Yeah. Because shame is not an emotion that I think our creator wants us to have. No. You know, now you can feel guilty about something and then act on it and then make it right. But shame really can suck the life that we do. Well, and I think about regret a lot too. And this isn't, this is something that I've learned is that it's, it's, yes, it's action and those things that I may have done. But so much of it is tied up regret in action. Yes. Totally. So like, nothing else is like, we don't say nothing. So when you feel it and you know this time, take action, make repair and then let it go. Well, and you also, you know, it's like when I would, you know, have to, you know, people say they fear public speaking more than death. Right. It's like when you're going up in front of the class, you're making a speech or something about something you might not be passionate about or not know about or maybe you're just scared to speak in front of your peers, right? You get up there, you go through it, you make it and then you're like, oh, that wasn't so bad. Of course. It's like, people, we're making up things because our brains do that. Yeah. Yeah. And you're making up things in your head that are far worse than they really are. Just like they say, just because you think it doesn't mean it's true. I mean, if I could have learned that early on, I wish I could be more of a stomach, but I'm a practicing stomach. Yes. But that's exactly right. You make it up worse your head, just like that. So it's, it's a funny thing. So I decided not to take any advertising for the first season of no magic pill and said, I want to use a few minutes to share about some projects I'm involved in that have really helped me on my journey and hopes that they will help you as well. As I learn the hard way, there is no magic pill. But there is one thing I do every morning and that's take my morning water. And here's why I learned every night you lose over a liter and a half of water, including essential electrolytes and minerals. And that's why you wake up feeling depleted. I used to try to fix this the hard way. My kitchen counter looked like a pharmacy. Creatine, magnesium, electrolytes, half a dozen bottles. I forgot to take half the time. My friend Austin combined all those into one simple formula and called it morning water. He gave it to me. I drink it for 30 days and I knew I had to be involved. So we co-founded the company together and every one of my friends who has tried it has been hooked ever since. I believe in this so much that we offer a full refund to anyone who does the 30 day morning water challenge and does not notice a big difference in the way they feel. If you want to try it and join us, go to morningwater.co and use the code no magic pill to get 25% off your first month. And get ready because your mornings will never be better. Okay, so I've kind of been balancing all around. I want to go to the panic attack because I had a panic attack too. And I think a lot of people maybe you're wondering, am I having a panic attack or just anxiety? Like what is the difference? You the year before the panic attack, you won the championship. Okay, so I got to think that was a lifelong dream, unbelievable experience. And if I know you as well as I think I do, it probably was like, that's it. I just dedicated my whole life to winning this. I won it. So there had to be some form of a letdown. Did that contribute to the panic attack? Like what do you think were the ingredients to lead to that day when you had to literally publicly leave a game? Yeah, and I wasn't even in, I've kind of tipped out around it or touched on it in some interviews, but even in 2016 when we were making our run, I wasn't in a great place. I just had a assistant coach who is now with Dallas. Text me yesterday and he showed me a photo of us from the 2016 finals. Okay. And he's like, man, I'm so proud of us and proud of you for having gotten through that time because he knew he was around it. Yeah, yeah. And I expressed my gratitude and I was very thankful for him staying on me and staying with me during that time because he knows it wasn't an easy time for me. So I don't go back and watch any of those finals games. I had a concussion. I didn't play well. I played well in game seven. We won. And it was more relief than like elation. I knew you're sitting there. Like I was written it down and then he's going to call it relief. Yeah, that's a tie field. Yeah. And I saw the company when I was like, oh, exhale. Yeah. But then the next day I was like, what's next? Yeah. Right. And you know, if is this all there is, right? So I think that led into the next, you know, you're in some change of just professional and personal spiral. Like I just called them like different pillars in my life or just falling to where I was having success professionally, but it was just hitting so hollow. And then I got hurt and then the game was taken away from me. And then, you know, when I had the panic attack, my teammates didn't know what the hell was going on. And then I had another one against Oklahoma City and nobody knew what was going on. So my teammates turned against me and I wasn't, well, I didn't want to share anything because I thought my livelihood would be taken away from me. And I thought that it would compromise my entire career and got people wouldn't trust me. Organization wouldn't trust me. And, you know, I'd be looked at at someone that was that was weak in this professional sports setting. So it was like I talk about that negative feedback loop. It's a spiral spiral. That's why we were professionally too. Yeah. Yeah. So like everything else that was going on away from the court. - Nothing was adding up. - Yeah. - It just, it led me to a moment where I just, I broke, I broke. And I-- - Physically broke. - Physically broke. - And couldn't breathe. - No, couldn't breathe. - You couldn't even play if you wanted to. - No, no. - You had to have to remove myself. Like I talked about earlier, like when I was young, I always had somewhere to go and like, - For those of you who don't know the exact story, which you just, I know it might be hard, but if you were just like, 'cause I think it's important for someone to understand like in your body, like what was happening? - Yeah, so I was, after half time, so we're playing the Hawks of every fifth of 2017, it was after half time. And I could tell something was wrong and the many of the games started. I got into foul trouble and again, weight of expectations. It was pretty early on and-- - Short of breath a little bit, right? - Oh, very short of breath. Very short of breath to the point where it was, there was a, you know, irregular. It wasn't the normal, you know, shortness of breath that you might feel if you're in altitude or something like that. So coach Tyron Lu was, you know, going over some plays and I'm just, you know, keep struggling to find breath and focus on the play in front of me. So I just, you know, we got up out of the funnel. I immediately told him I was like, he started, you know, telling me a cover, just something I just said, I have to go and just ran back to the familiar place, which was the locker room. I had nobody would be there. Of course there were people there. - That's it, that's it. - Heart rate and breathing continues to, you know, go to higher cadence and it's getting more and more scary. I feel like I can oxygen my brain. - Yes, that's, that's the common feeling for someone. And I've experienced it where it's like, I'm having a heart attack. - Yes. And then like, you know, it's kind of like a heat wave throughout my chest and my neck and my head. And again, breathing just keeps getting heavier and heavier. And like I'm, I'm looking for like a place to go. Like I have no, like I have this, it was our old locker room at Cleveland. I'm like, okay, I can't do this here because everybody comes through the locker room. But I'm like, oh, if I don't figure this out now, like am I gonna, like what's gonna happen? Am I gonna die? - Yeah, everyone's gonna see this. - Right, like everybody's gonna see this. And then I literally am going through our training room. And we have players out and we have, you know, PT's there and athletic trainers there. They're like watching this happen. And I just sprint into our athletic trainers office, just fall on the ground and just like, you know, pass out. And I'm like trying to get something out of my throat. That's like, I keep thinking, maybe there's something blocking my airways and I just can't get enough oxygen, you know, and I'm profusely. So I sweat, but not like that. That was like heavy heavy sweat. So I, you know, I'm back on, if I get up, I'm back on oxygen. I go to, you know, they get me out of there. Security escorts me out of there. I don't even know if I shower. I put on my clothes. They drive me to the Cleveland Clinic. They run all the tests. - And you're totally fine. - Totally fine. - Yeah, that's totally fine. - Yeah. - Physically. - Yeah. - Totally fine. - So I sit there like, what the (beep) just happened? - So then like, you know, Kate, my now wife, she had driven from Detroit to meet us there after it happened and then Shannon Magalli, who I've worked with for over 10 years now, she was there as well. And I'm just looking at him like, you know, I almost don't want to feel a lot of shame. I don't even want to like look at anybody in the eye because I don't know what's going on. Is this gonna happen again? - So scary. - I saw this. I have to face all of this at work. - Yeah. - Like how the hell my gang's playing this? - Right, now my safe place of the basketball, the safe place of the basketball court is now gone. Is it gone forever or so? - Oh my God. - Now it's all anxiety and fear to the max. - And it just makes it worse. - Yeah. - It just makes it worse. - And it's just the fear of when is this gonna happen again? I mean, after I had my first kind of attack, you know, waking up at three in the morning, not being able to breathe a whole thing, then every night that I went to bed for about a month, I was just like, please don't wake up and have a better panic. - Yeah. - And then that becomes like, that becomes the new normal. - Yeah. - That's like, is this all the difference now? - Your whole life is decent. - And I've been offensive player in my whole life. So now you're like literally playing defense in a survival. And then what happens is, then you're in fight and flight. And so we know that what happens to your brain with your in-fire flight, you can't make any good decisions. - No. - So then you start making bad decisions, and then you, I don't know about you, but I messed up my personal life beyond belief, because I'm making bad decision after bad decision, which then calls it more shame. And I mean, this is what happens. And it happens far more than people realize. - Right. And then you start, I always, you know, that in posture syndrome, I'd always been there for me. And even at like a gorephobia to the max now, where I'm like, I can't leave. - I can't go outside. - You know what I mean? - No, but you know, I'm gonna be, you know, publicly stoned if I go outside. Like people are just gonna rip me apart, tear me apart if they know about this. - Yeah. - And especially you as a public figure. - Yeah. - And I mean, I can't imagine. - And Cleveland, they live vicariously through their athletes and through sports. So even then, like I didn't want this to be like a blemish on them. - Mm. - I want pressure. - I wanted to be the next pressure. - Now there's like this, you know, you get more pressure. - This guy that, you know, inspired kids and they have the zero jerseys. And you know, it's like LeBron, Kyrie and Kevin. And like, I didn't want to be that guy. - Yeah. - Which now, and, you know, of course in hindsight, you could have never known at the time, but now it's, I guess become an inspiration in a different way. But again, I had to go through that. - Yeah, well, I mean, I heard this the other day. Someone said, sometimes we, in life, we can turn our mess into our message. - Yeah. - And that's what you've done so well with sharing this and being so vulnerable. And, you know, starting, you know, the Kevin Love Fund would not exist if this didn't happen. So it's nice. I think for me, like you said earlier, like making sense of things. As on my healing journey has been so helpful for me to make sense of like, well, if I didn't go through all that pain, I wouldn't have had this idea that now is helping kids in high schools and colleges, having this type of conversation, which will definitely help someone. - Yeah. - And, and when you had that panic attack, you know, that was kind of like the moment that then ultimately led you to speak up. And that was the first time, I mean, writing that essay, it was, I think the first time that you publicly talked about this and the response was amazing. And it's led to so much that you've continued to speak about. So how did you have the courage? Like, I mean, what, I mean, that's, as far as all the questions I was excited to ask today, this is the one I was probably most interested in is because basketball, because it was your safe place. You now lost your safe place. By you coming out and saying, "This is what happened," and we got to start talking about this, took a tremendous amount of courage, especially back then, you know, with 2018, right? No one was talking about this. - I mean, yeah. - So, so what, what was the insight? Like, who did someone encourage you? Did you get help from a therapist? Like, how did you know that you were ready to take this major decision and come out with this? - Well, somebody who had pushed me was De Marta Rosen, and he just, I always say, like, he probably just, he had like a 3 a.m., like, very passive tweet about him struggling and his depression gets the best of him, and that sort of thing. So him and I have been connected through this since day one. And also, I guess selfishly, it was a way for me to free myself. I thought, I don't want to keep living in the shadows. I don't want to keep compartmentalizing. I don't want to just keep hiding in plain sight, right? - Yeah. - Well, where's it again? What we don't say? - So this was my way of, and I'm always like writing, like putting a pen to paper. Yeah, I think for me, it was also understanding that I could, you know, just help that next person or that next kid that might be feeling like I've felt for a very long time and is suffering and silence. I think that was the biggest, or the most eye opening thing for me is like, you know, we wear this armor, we outwardly pretend or try and put on a, you know, a façade or I mentioned earlier, to play a character that isn't who we are. - Exhaust. - And it's so exhausting. Like I, you know, and that's why I would put myself in dark rooms and, you know, beds or, you know, lay on a couch for, you know, hours and hours and days and days at a time. So I think it was, and when I finally press send on the article was understanding like, wow, there are so many people that are dealing with this. It was every demographic, it was every walk of life. It was, you know, our security guards to, you know, teachers that I had back home to some of my best friends, to just, I couldn't, the outflow of, not only support, but community and shared experiences and stories after that is what led us here. - Yeah, and we'll let us, all these years later here, but it was, you know, very eye-opening to see like, so many people that I thought were on solid footing and on solid ground. We're also-- - On solid ground. - On solid ground. - You gave your permission. I mean, that's the really beautiful thing about when you share, and you don't have to be, you know, five time NBA All-Star or CU of a company to share your mental health journey and help others. Like that's what I'm realizing and what I'm trying to do with enough is like, give people permission to share and to know that by you sharing, even if you have a hundred followers on Instagram. I guarantee one of those hundred people probably ten of those hundred people are going to have a great benefit from being like, oh, you know, Dan who works in IT also deals with this. It's the same story. Yeah. I mean, I remember it's all my age and it's like, are you sure you want to do this? This is going to like change everything. I'm like, yeah, I'll change everything, Jeff. Okay. But he goes, no, if you do this, like everybody's going to know that you're real, real, you're struggling. And yeah, but it's like, you're going to be, yeah, this is going to be out forever. You can't hide from him. Yeah. And you're so free. Both. Yeah. But again, like you said, so, so freeing. And I'm like, this is me. You can't use me against me now. Like, what are you going to say? So, so I think about like what you're doing with the Kevin Love Foundation. And like some of the things you wish you had known or tools you wish you had had in those early years, how are you applying that to then helping young people today through the Kevin Love Fund? Yeah. I think more than anything, it's establishing and providing resources for those kids and young teens at that age that we spoke of, right? Like so. And what are the key resources? Like, what do you think's like the most important resource that you guys can provide someone? I mean, I think it's our education and our curriculum. Yeah. So it's modeling vulnerability within the classroom. And it's social emotional learning curriculum, which is evidence-based. It's a free curriculum. So available to to anyone. But it's a series of many different mediums and many different lessons plans where I spoke of like kids might not have the language to be able to express themselves. Yeah. They have either two feelings. I mean, they're angry or I'm combined. Right. There's a lot of emotion in between them. Exactly. Right. So they're they're finding different ways, whether it be through music or creative writing or photography or, you know, like we did something with, you know, the spider, the spiderverse. I love the spiderverse. I watched the video. I watched the video. Miles Morales. I thought it was great. Yeah. We did a, yeah, amazing short film with them where we created a lesson plan around it as well. We got something else coming out now because Steph Curry around All Star. Oh, so many different ways and fun ways for kids to be able to express themselves and do it around their peers. Sure. And I think it's just the beauty of it is that, you know, this generation is so much more open to. Yeah. Having these conversations and has the presence of mind to know like, no, this is actually better for us. Yes. Like let's so important. I went back to my high school the other day to talk about enough and share my journey. And I was just amazed at how emotionally aware and present a far more intelligent. And so I think having, you know, curriculum like you guys are creating. I mean, that's why we're very proud that you're one of our partners with enough because I really believe that had I learned some of that early on, I would not have allowed this limiting self-belief of Blake, you're not enough, you're not enough my whole life. And if I could have intervened then, I might have done the same things, but I sure would have enjoyed it a lot more. I talk about that all the time. I look, I have notes in my phone where I'm like, the hardest thing maybe in my entire career to reconcile with is that I have not enjoyed it enough. But I also in, you know, a lot of ways, again, all of the stuff that we're talking about having not had that earlier, I think has allowed me to have this perspective now. Which is beautiful. I'm very grateful for it. Had I wish I been able to enjoy it more because this had been my dream forever. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Like, I'm like, I look back. I'm like, you did, you have had a great career. And like, I've left so much on the table and I haven't done anything. And it's like, Grace, give yourself some of the grace. Yeah. But I know I'm not the only one who does it. I mean, that we're sitting here eye to eye. But you get to enjoy it now. And I mean, that's for me what I've said is like, I look back at Tom's and I was like, man, I really wish I would have enjoyed it more because I could have and everyone around me, I think, was enjoying it. But I, because of all the pressure and not feeling enough. And so it now with launching enough, it's, I get a second chance. Yeah. Like, I'm building an organization. We're going to help, you know, millions of people I hope. And I'm having fun. Like I'm having fun doing this interview. I had fun yesterday doing one in Austin. And so I think, you know, how do I wish, you know, I learned these lessons or yeah, but maybe that wasn't way my life was designed to be. And so I think anyone listening, it's the same thing. Like, if you're not, if you're at the top of your game and you're not enjoying it, you know, slow down and figure out why because it's like you said, we're only one play away. You know, we're only one play away from turning that around. I love this quote. It said when I was really suffering, someone said, you don't have to be the person you were five minutes ago. Yeah. You know, you know, I'm going to start enjoying this. I'm going to start whether it's parenting, whether it's being a boss, whether it's being an employee, what are playing an athlete? Like, I think that's, that's so, so important to know that our mind can be really hard on us, but it also can work for us in a beautiful way. Sure. And it's up to us. It really is. Okay. You might have heard me talk about this when I had Michael Pollan on the show, but since then I've become even more enamored with this AI therapy app called Sonya. I met the founders at a mental health conference and started using it with some skepticism at first, but it now has been six months. And it is helping me in ways I could never have imagined. Honestly, I feel like I got a therapist and a life coach available to me 24 hours a day. And here's a clip from one of my recent sessions. So you can see what the experience is actually like. Hi, Blake. I'm here. What's on your mind right now? Oh, um, I'm just feeling a little stressed about things right now because I feel like I've got so much going on. I really don't know how to prioritize it. When everything stacks up at once, it can blur what actually matters and make that old not enough story get louder. Let's slow this down by picking one thread to start with what feels most pressing in this moment. The important reframe is this. The projects did not cure the depression. They arrived because you healed. And when you overwork to prevent relapse, you actually undermine the things that keep you well, like sleep, presence, movement and connection. When that edge shows up, it is a signal to reduce load and restore choice, not to push harder. Most of my friends who've tried just one session, including my dad, are now using it several times a week. The Sony app is still in beta, but they have opened it up for anyone to try now for free on the Apple App Store. Okay, here's another project I'm involved in that might sound crazy at first, but this year I met some engineers from Nike who invented a new type of office chair that has not only changed my life, but saved my back, especially because I'm on about five hours of Zoom calls every single day. The MoveLab chair has two different pivot points under the seat, which keeps your body in continuous micro movements all day. The founders told me it is the equivalent of taking 3,000 steps. And all the lubrication of your joints and the blood flow is why my back no longer hurts. And I can focus on my work so much better. I loved it so much that I actually joined the team as a co-founder. And I will be sending one to every person I know when we launch this fall. If you're interested in learning more or pre-ordering one, we only have 500 in the first run. You can check us out at movelab.com. And that's spelled M-O-O-V-L-A-B dot com. One of my favorite quotes of all time is Mother Teresa. And she says, "If you want to change the world, start in your home." So you have two young kids. I have three kids. Mine are a little bit older than years. How is a parent, and as someone who has had mental illness, and has also seen it, maybe generally, generally, like, how are you thinking about raising children so that they might not go through what we went through? Because I'm asking not as a podcast host, not as a parent. As far as science and data and being an expert in that way, I'm not. But I've read a lot about trauma and generational trauma because I know how it relates within the confines of the love and Wilson family as well. Yeah. I mean, you definitely had drugs and alcoholism and just depression. Your dad struggled with depression? He did, yeah. For sure. He just was, I mean, not the whole love family, and I'll probably get some **** for this. But we're all like, there's a lot of us that are just like prone to that and melancholy and just negative cycles. But it's true. Look at my brother and sister all the time, and I'm like, we're the generation that is going to break some of that curse and able to move forward if not for us and for our children because they started talking about like, what I was getting at is like epigenetics, right? Yes. There's a great book just called Trauma and by Dr. Paul Conti. I know Paul. Yeah. Yeah. Paul's my psychiatrist for a while. Likewise. Yeah. I love it. Likewise. Yeah. So he's been great. The people that he he works with have been amazing. But yeah, he helped me early on in my journey. Yeah. Same. Yeah. So and I'm going to keep going back to that well because there's a lot more to unpack. But he, you know, he talked to me about it being epigenetics and it's generational and actually like lives in you at a cellular level. Yeah. And your kids will therefore are going to have to deal with that. So and it's there. So for me, I think that is something that because as an athlete and as a basketball player like you're like oh stats don't lie right like that sort of thing so you're like oh give me give me the info give me the data give me the science behind it so and seeing that and knowing that it's real it's that has allowed me to be make even more sense of it and be a better father in that way but a lot of it is just you know learning from your parents as well and also a relationship that you have with your spouse and you know the great things that you remember you know from childhood I think it's all because we're all just kind of winging it know for sure we're 100% as being parents but I you know I just fill the household with so much love and so much you know attention to them and and and just being so present with with with with my daughter so they can feel that love radiating and they do feel it I actually did a podcast recently with Kristin Neff you know Kristin Neff so she wrote this book self-compassion and she taught me something that I didn't know about it's called neuron mirroring we heard this before so basically in our brain the neurons have a resonance with other people that were in close contact with and they've been able to show that the neurons will mirror how each other feel and so when we I asked her this question about parenting because she has a son and she said the the the best thing we can do for our kids especially they have some generational you know issues with mental health is work on ourselves and our own mental because if we are healthy mentally and and those neurons are firing in a good way it's going to affect our kids more than anything we say to them I agree well it's funny you say that because what do they say that you can't form a memory until what you're at four years old or after that but I'm like no no no no they feel it's going on before that that helps shape them at a cellular level and with their brain it's exactly what you're talking about so I'm glad I've always said that yeah not knowing and it's not like confirming all of it but it does add to an understanding that all of that stuff does play a part in matters as they start forming their memories as they get older like that is building an unbelievable base and foundation to where you're going to it's like what you feed them if you don't give them sugar before yeah two years old right like what does that do for a kid in their health long term and all cause mortality like those things the matter matter yeah I mean we talked about the epigenetics and how that affects our kids and are they predisposed to say depression if I was or if your dad was you maybe but also you could also make an argument that you witnessed your dad's melancholy and depression and so though that was what you were seeing is what I think adult does and so then it became more natural for you to have that so it goes back to like the more we can do to take care of ourselves like it's not selfish it's the best thing we can do not just for our kids but the people we work with your teammates you know they see Kevin love really healthy and a mental state and really thriving they're going to feel that and I think that that's just yeah just so important so I guess that's where I'm going to wrap us up because we could probably talk forever yes but in order for you to bring that energy to your kids as they get older in order that for you to bring that to these young players are so impressionable why you what are you doing today that people listening could also take away or I can even learn from to to kind of focus on your personal mental wellness like what are the what are the key Kevin love yeah the easiest thing that I can do is sleep okay so important eat well eat well yeah for me working out is like I'm killing two birds of one stone so like it's it's quite literally like this dopamine hit as well as helping me you know at my job and helping me want you know and I look at my kids and I say like okay I probably have osteoarthritis in my knees now and like my body's taken it beating over 18 years of professional basketball but I want to be a young dad what can I do in order to be a young dad so that inherently yeah I'm so mental health and when you said two birds is one stone on the working out I think I know what you meant but what did you mean by that I mean like it's quite literally helping my job okay okay you're having success out there with something I still and it's good for your body and it's great for my body my brain everything I would say three birds then okay because the other thing is this is one of my own hacks boys is it like two of the things are so important for my mental health is working out moving my body and connecting with others and so I never work out by myself anymore it's a great point if I don't work out I go I and I do that do that I like to work out with friends and an outdoor gym because then I get nature and so I'm lucky but yeah so you're also getting that connection yeah when you're working out with someone which is so important for someone especially they're struggling 100% and I think the yes and to that is connect to like your tribe yeah it doesn't just have to be your direct family but it can be you know your family made a long way it can be teammates it can be people that you're going to build these relationships with to where if you are struggling or something is to happen like my father passed in April I had so many people that I could reach out to or so many people that reached out to me because of the relationship because we have that community to invest in that relationship and it gave back it does it's so like especially men for men listening right now I think you're in your 30s and 40s you're working hard you're you're building your family maybe and oftentimes what falls by the wayside or male friendships from relationships and you might not seem like it's a big deal then but if you don't invest in those relationships in your 30s and 40s other than this from my dad then when you hit the fan which it always does maybe in your 50s or 60s you're not going to have that to fall back on and so that's another thing that I think is key yeah loneliness is a real thing too I mean we have an epidemic of it right now it's it's um I truly believe that that community feel an aspect to all of it I mean I know that when I'm finally hanging up and I'm done playing I'm gonna miss the plane rides I'm gonna miss the locker room I'm gonna miss the the bus rides I'm gonna miss the time out there on the floor like just the connection time connection yeah so you're actually working out eating well sleeping connection those I think are all things that people will be nodding the head is there anything that might be surprising meditation I mean I feel like people are so much more open to um and I've heard you speak about meditation before it's like huge part of my enough journey and you know it's not like my my uncle has done TM for uh transcendental meditation now for like 65 years well he's I mean it's like and it's insane two times a day for 20 minutes I'm not saying that you have to do that although he would tell you why aren't you pushing that uh but it can be you know I always say like it could be five minutes five minutes two minutes oh it's just just really nervous for sure or you know something like he's talked about getting out of nature like if you can go find some grass go find some like ground yourself especially getting off a flight or if you're traveling or if you just don't feel quite right get some sunlight in the morning there's just like easy easier excuse me hacks that that that you can do to um you know help just balance yourself and and it could be so great for your mental and physical well being yeah that's great and then the last thing I'll ask on that because I have to think they're still even doing all that and in this and it's all the growth you've had there's got to be days you still wake up with anxiety I feel it right now uh come on every single day every single day oh it's not you truck man it's not you it's not you it's me okay so so that's the last thing I want to ask about and the reason I'm asking is because I've really been feeling great for about a year and I thankfully have not had any panic attacks no serious depressive episodes I feel so grateful I feel like I'm doing the things to maintain my mental wellness but in the last couple of weeks since we launched enough I've been on a press tour I've been in podcast I've definitely put too much on my plate and I've noticed the last couple days have kind of woken up with a little bit of remembrance of that anxiety what do you do when you're feeling kind of that anxiety come on is it is it the breathwork is it a cold shower is it is there one thing that you kind of love me a cold shower yeah yeah that's what I would say I mean is that you know a gold cold shower but is there anything because especially since we talked about the panic attack and anxiety for someone listening like okay they're waking up with anxiety what do you say is the first most important thing to do and for me it's definitely breathe I don't think any any of us breathe right I mean I wonder what percentage of people actually like have diaphragmatic breathing that is healthy for them and it's long-term going to be something that they don't necessarily truly have to work on so like breathing making sure like there'll be times where I don't even realize how shallow my breaths are or if I haven't exiled in a few minutes because I'm holding on to something so a lot of that is self-assessment and something I've had to get better at that's kind of what I do in the morning I'm like okay what do I need yeah and it typically is the morning where yeah that's when you wake up and you feel like okay maybe I just haven't had a minute to actually understand why I'm feeling these sort of thoughts and allow them to just kind of be passive and and come and go and be in a meditation meditative type of you know space within my brain but also write it down oh yeah some I forgot oh I write everything down I've notes grilled everywhere I have notes for days in my phone yeah write it down I mean it it's right down what works or right down what you're to do to do like no and also how I'm feeling so trying to name it yeah how that's a huge thing yeah yeah that's that's what I had to do a lot when my dad passed just family grief and understanding grief and the family dynamic and father son and who am I as a son how am I going to be as a father like I had to just put it all down because it was all yeah get it out of here and I had to put you know pen and paper it's you know messy and all over the place and punctuation's off and off. - Doesn't matter. - Doesn't matter. - Yeah, I like that. - Okay, that's another good tip right down. Well, I love the tips. I'm most grateful for just how vulnerable you've been today. How just, you're such an incredible example of just a great guy who's not afraid to say what's happened and to share with others. And I'm so grateful you came on the podcast. So, and thank you for being a partner with enough. And it's just so good to be here. - Appreciate you. - This is great. - This is great. It's awesome. If this episode spoke to you, please share it with a friend, family member, or someone you love. Because no magic pill is not just a podcast. It's a resource to help us all live better lives. Hit the subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And let us know what you think by leaving a comment. A quick note that this episode is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Always consult a qualified healthcare professional regarding any medical questions or concerns you may have. Thanks for watching or listening to no magic pill. I would love to send you an enough bracelet as a thank you for being a member of our new community. Just go to weareenough.co/nomagicpill and claim this gift from me. And please help us spread this important message out into the world. I am enough, you are enough and we are enough. There's more no magic pill with Lemonada Premium. You can listen to every episode at free plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from select guests and special behind the scenes content. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcast or go to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. You can also listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. No magic pill is a production of Lemonada Media and the enough foundation. This show is produced by Wubitu Shimalash, Katherine Barnes and Keegan Zema. Additional production by Ivan Karayev and Kristen Lapur. Post production by Oranda Studio. Jackie Danziger is head of content at Lemonada Media. Executive producers are me, Blake McCoskey, Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles-Wax. Special thanks to Jillian Deloio, Jennifer Song, Maggie Wertz, Andrew Fine, James Johnson, Devon Robbins, Emily Leadbetter, Chris Orwig, Sean McGurk, Jasmine Burgess, and the entire enough foundation team. The enough foundations mission is to spread reminders in every form, bracelets, messages, actions, and community until feeling enough becomes the cultural default. To learn more, visit weareenough.co. You can help others find our show by leaving us a rating and writing a review. Thanks so much for listening and watching. See you next week.