NBA Finals Leftovers! | Real Ones

what's popping ruins logan murdoch here howard beck and raja bell and a few rogers return we basically just ask the biggest questions about the finals and get them answered what do we think it's a big finals retrospective last pod we gave you the the the in the moment perspective um it was a little loopy um it was awesome it was all those things but now that we kind of have cooler heads we want to bring raja back into the fold and kind of just like just shoot this shit man um we talk about uh the finals itself we could get a really animated discussion about wimby um and just his his uh villain arc maybe and then talk about mike brown talk about darren fox um just kind of regroup and just do a little level set um went a little long this pod um it was a lot of fun though man it was great to see raja back in the fold it was great to have our brothers back and uh um it was fun man without further ado cliff victoria play the theme music what's popping real ones howard beck over there our brother our guy our homie our big my big homie raja bell's in the motherfucking house what's up man missed you how you doing chilling yeah i'm doing good man good to be back off the road like everything is good there's good couple weeks on the road with my son ty the whole world has changed since we last saw you the knicks won the championship nothing i know that's nothing's the same man like my wife is as big a knicks fan as there is so um yeah we i mean like it's it's a it's a good time to be a new york native a fan of the knicks uh i would imagine the tri-state area everybody kind of claims a little bit so congratulations what was that like for you though man like we we talked about brenson we've talked about wimby throughout this postseason but like what was your experience watching the finals the last two games the four and five while we were gone what was that like what were the biggest things that stuck out for you yeah uh shoot i don't know it was it was hard for me because like i was i was in gyms you know so i wasn't getting um i was at the mbpa top 100 camp um and then i was at section seven in arizona so like i wasn't always able to sit there and really watch a game the way i needed to watch a game um but but i you know in in fairness i i can't break it down like that because i just be making shit up but i what what stuck out to me was just the resiliency overall of the knicks squad um i do think i made a bit of a mistake with how jaylen was able going to be able to figure out offensively how to be uh himself you know i thought that the spurs had done such a great job on shea um and he never seemed to get a great beat on it i i thought jaylen would just quite frankly struggle a little bit i still thought the knicks would be okay but i thought he would struggle but you know i think the spurs showed a lot of the things that we came into the playoffs worrying about whether they would rear their head in terms of inexperience and just lack of of of you know depth of experience on that team from the top to bottom i think showed up in ways that cost them you know and that's to be expected i thought i think quite frankly the fact that it didn't show up more prevalently earlier in the playoffs is is kind of remarkable but i think i think all of those things were kind of takeaways for me and then the city i mean like there's just the city was on fire like that was that was out of control yeah what it's so funny that you know the the the jaylen brunson discussion is has so many different elements that we can go to right he's the out of all the players that are that he is compared to um the lucas the um the anthony edwards um you know all the smaller guards he's the first one to win it this episode is brought to you by sony pictures classics a perfect crime film says the daily beast john taturo gives a career best performance don't miss the acclaimed new thriller the only living pickpocket in new york taturo stars as an aging master pickpocket whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family also starring giancarlo esposito tatiana maslany will price and steve buscemi see the film that the la times calls instantly classic the only living pickpocket in the world the only living pickpocket in the world opens only in theaters october 23rd in new york and los angeles nationwide october 30th title um and one of the things that we talked about throughout this postseason raja and you in particular we're talking about just like small guards and can they get to it right like and can you win with a small guard when you know and we know this about san antonio they were basically just blitzing brunson any chance that they got right um what do we learn about what is how a small guard can do it and what do we learn about how a small guard can do it and what do we learn be successful in this league and like what did he show you just from that type of standpoint where you know they are blitzing him and it seems to not matter matter down the stretch of games right because that was the biggest thing right it was the spurs were going every uh quarter except for the fourth throughout this whole series like how did you how did you see that going yeah i've never been the small guard can't win and people are going to immediately be like oh yes you did but that's not what i two small guards you you're not winning one small guard like one small guard they've won i mean isaiah thomas won um you know like people people wait i'm just trying to think steph uh uh uh tony parker like small you could have now small is relative right but like that's it's not a problem it's when you put two small guards out there that becomes that defensive real defensive liability um that i then i start to wonder whether you can get it done i think whenever you have your primary player being a smaller guard you just have to get the recipe right around them the roster has to be built in a way that can account for that and and and support that and to a large degree i think the knicks as a collective were supporting jalen in a way that he needed to be supported when he was trying to work his way through figuring out the best way to attack what san antonio was doing to him defensively until he got his feet under him and and and then just started saying fuck it like here's what they're going to do i'm going to go ahead and take that and so that for me that's what it becomes right like if your primary offensive threat is going to be a relatively small guard that has some and this isn't a jailing thing this is just in general that is also not great defensively you just have to get it right with the rest of that roster and the way you're built and the knicks did that this episode of the ringer nba show is presented by ferrero the world is watching go all in for your team this summer with ferrero enter for the chance to win a range of prizes just by purchasing your favorite treats like kinder bueno with an irresistible chocolate wafer and creamy hazelnut filling or kiebler chips deluxe cookies with indulgent and rich chocolatey chunks or ferrero rocher squares with crunchy hazelnuts and milk chocolate wrapped in iconic gold go all in buy any two ferrero brands and you could win one million dollars official rules apply learn more at go all in and win.com it's always funny to just see like star players in general kind of work their way through the finals right and you know you've seen it um you know particularly i saw it firsthand with steph um you know you've seen it i'm sure with tony parker and other guys where they have to find their way within a series because the finals are a different beast where this is the best scouting that you are going to get against your gang right and um that's why you always see like the first couple of games of a final especially from a star player or a number one option there's always a process right you saw that with brunson when he took 31 shots um and he finally kind of got his rhythm towards the end of the game um and you know game two he was you know seven of 25 still won the game but then you see him kind of figure his way through a series like what's the scouting like during those types of uh environments and how do players kind of navigate their way through because he goes from you know the first game shooting 12 of 31 from the field in the final game he scores damn near half their points right so like how did how do you how do you how have you seen players like that kind of figure their way through series look great great players figure things out pretty quickly um sometimes it's on the fly in the middle of a game you know sometimes it's from game to game um you know typically what what what happens is you're you're getting you're getting these looks that that usually confuse you like fractionally we're talking about split seconds of of decision making time that are the difference between whether you can execute something and and get this clean look off or make the pass that's going to lead to a clean look or not and if i can freeze your brain for that split second as a as a defensive uh scheme i've won i've done my job and so sometimes it's as simple as going back to that film and a great player looking at it and saying hey i'm going to and and realizing yo that's that's not exactly what i thought it was like this is available to me over and over again and if i just commit myself to doing this um and that would change from scheme to scheme right like i think you saw jalen especially late in the game like there's a clip with his dad saying like yo just go because he could go like he could get by but he was doing a lot of like not going at different parts of the series because of what he thought was going to be behind right like when we'll do this we're going to do this we're going to do this we're going to do this we're going to do that to you like you know that that that 7-6 like phantom is out there somewhere And if you can't really see him in your peripheral, you got to be afraid of him, you know, coming and getting that shot. But then he just decided to just go at times. And sometimes it's as simple as just seeing the film and saying, oh shit, I didn't see this in real time or I did, but I was a little, you know, I was kind of second guessing myself, but I'm just going to keep taking that and see if it bears fruit. And then they've got to adjust to it. Right. But like, I want to be fair again, I, I didn't do a great breakdown of those last two games, but that's what it felt like to me. It was like, like he's going back and he's watching film. Um, and he's realizing that like, this isn't any thing that he's never seen before necessarily. He's just got to realize what's happening and how he can take advantage of that and then just be committed to taking advantage of that. Yeah. I remember there was one, uh, theory that sticks out, uh, went to your point about, you know, players kind of taking the lid off of a shot blocker. And I'm thinking about like the old nine, um, I think it was conference finals, Lakers, uh, nuggets where Birdman. Uh, was like the shop, shop blocking Savannah at that time. Right. And it was kind of like, and then everybody said throughout that playoffs. And I remember Shannon Brown caught him on a fast break and just in his face. Right. Just dunked all in his face. And that opened the floodgates for a lot, the rest of the team to just like not be as intimidated with Birdman as they once were. Like, you know, I think tomorrow I'm caught a potty during that, during that series as well. But what I'm saying, I'll let this. Say is like, when you see your star player or a player kind of take it to a shop like her and a series like that, who's intimidating, it really opens it up for everyone else. And I thought you kind of saw that as the series progresses, like, you know, the Knicks stopped being scared of Wimby after a certain point in time. And they would just go where they were blocked, getting blocked or not. And that's something that, okay, see, just didn't do. They never kind of got to that point where they were like, okay, we're not scared of him anymore. We don't even care if we get blocked. We know we're getting good shots and it's all good. So it was kind of great to just see that. Like maturation through a series that you saw from New York and then, you know, they're a veteran team and there are a lot of more, you know, factors involved in that. But I want to go to Howard real quick. I can, I just say this though, cause I'm sorry. I feel bad, Howard, but like, I think you're right. Like the two players that did that and Anobi took him to the cup twice. Once he bodied him and dunked on him. And once he just went by and said, I'm not even fucking thinking about you. And Kat did it to him a few times on the, Hey, you're gonna guard me straight up. I'm just going to walk you to the basket and put you in the hole. And so I would agree with you. That's all I would say. It's like, it's like, it's like punching Debo, bro. At the end of the movie, it's like, Wimby is a bully, especially throughout this, uh, this post is that he showed that folks with a shot blocking and also kind of his, his bullshit, you know, let's just be honest. And we'll get to that in a second. But Howard, I want to talk about the lessons that we can, you know, get from this post season in this finals, right? Um, beginning of the season, it's wild. We all just assume that a Western conference team was going to win this championship. Right. And rightfully so the Western conference, uh, on paper have the better teams, but it seemed like during this time, this, the Western conference teams beat each other's ass. And by the time that they got to the Eastern conference, there's no excuse. The Knicks won this series fair and square, um, not even taken away from them, but what lessons should we take from this season as an Eastern conference, by extension, the Knicks, there's so many ways we can go with this, but let's just start with that. What was the biggest lesson that we can get from this Knicks title and how we kind of, you know, look. Forward to the next season and make maybe better predictions. I honestly think after eight champions in eight years, all of them with a fairly unique kind of, um, evolution and storyline that it's now almost futile to say, well, if the Knicks are the champions now, and they did it this way, built this way with this kind of team and this kind of star player, what can others do to try to replicate it? And it's like, I don't know that any one model is replicating. Like, I just don't like, I, I, the, the Knicks start this run by snatching a guy who's a free agent, who is a secondary type player who hasn't been an all-star who's had some nice moments, but he's not a superstar. He's you're paying him less than the max. Nobody knew at the moment that they signed Jalen Brunson, maybe not even Jalen and Rick Brunson that he would become this right. So you can't replicate that. Now you can look for diamonds. In the rough, you can be opportunistic. You can say, Ooh, that team Dallas Mavericks is underestimating, undervaluing their own guy. Let's go grab him. We think there's more there. Cool. Um, I don't know how many opportunities there are to do that in this league. I think, you know, this kind of, it's just like with, you know, Jokic and Brunson, both being second round picks who become finals MVPs, the formula doesn't then become find a guy in the second round and hope he becomes an MVP. It also could become, it also could become like, I think. You're talking about Shay at Gilkis Alexander last year, right? There's another guy that like, Oh, we got, we, we like him. He's, this is undervalued on your end. We're going to trade for him. All right. So, um, my buddy, Steve will already, uh, former analytics guy in the league, um, who I've cited a couple of times on this podcast. Um, he had sent me this observation the other day, last eight finals MVPs, their average draft position 15th. So that's Brunson at 33 shade 11 Jalen Brown at three. So there's the rare kind of like weirdly rare. Top three pick who became MVP. Um, you'll get your 41 Curry is seven Giannis 15 LeBron number one, of course, and Kawhi 15. So in our, in our eight year run of eight champions in eight years, eight different finals MVPs, you've got, you know, three guys who were drafted in the top 10, um, two, excuse me. Um, and everybody else is, is outside the top 10 or excuse me. Yeah. It was three in the top 10. Um, and then a bunch of guys who were in the teens or, or, or a couple of guys who were in the teens or a couple second rounders. So like, good luck saying like, well, we'll just find our Giannis or we'll find our Kawhi or our Jokic or our Shea or it like scouting is super important. Development is super important. But I think the most important lesson of this Knicks era is once you get the guy and you realize, Ooh, we didn't know that we had the guy capital T capital G at the time that we signed him, we had hopes. But once you see him evolving into that, you do everything possible to surround him with the right kind of players, right? And I remember in real time, like I loved the OG Ananobi trade. It was painful for Knicks fans because they loved Emmanuel quickly and they still had hopes for RJ Barrett and flipping those guys for Ananobi who had an injury history. Um, the Raptors were a little down on him because they knew he wanted, you know, a max deal that they were not willing to give him because they didn't think he was worth it. They saw him as like great defender who can shoot the three, but you know, puts the ball on the floor. You start to cringe. Like they weren't sure he could be that, that complete player. And the Knicks are like, F it. This guy's the perfect guy to have. We have Jalen Brunson, who's going to be a defensive liability, but a great offensive engine. We need OG Ananobi. We need Mikael Bridges. And then Knicks fans are cringing again. And I'm not blaming Knicks fans. Like a lot of people cringed at the, the, the draft capital, uh, cost of getting Mikael Bridges, but you needed those guys. You needed guys like that. Uh, Mitchell Robinson, the only Knicks draft pick who was a serious part of this rotation. And he was from the previous administration. He's one of the lone holdovers. They got rid of everybody because. Because they saw what they had in Jalen Brunson. And they said, these are the kinds of players we need around him. That it happened to also be a couple of Villanova guys. All, all the, the, the more, uh, you know, um, great for your chemistry. Worldwide West influence right there. You know, a little bit. Probably. Um, but it was just, it's a really smart, methodical, patient build, an opportunistic build. And those are, none of those are, are, um, descriptors you would have used for the Knicks and the way they operated for the prior 20 years. But it, that is, if there's a lesson, that's kind of the lesson for the rest of the league is, you know, you, you have to be a little bit methodical and patient. And then, you know, once you see the opportunity, oh shit, there's an OG Ananobi available. Boom. Let's go get them. I don't care what it costs on the cost part of it though. By the way, I've said this before, but I want to just reiterate this. This was not a big market stomping everybody else with their incredible resources and influence and whatever they didn't attract. Like, yeah, guys. Like playing in New York, but they got Jalen Brunson mostly because they identified him, but also, yeah, he had a pre-existing relationship with Leon Rose, who was his dad's agent and is Jalen's godfather and all this other stuff. It wasn't about New York. It was about relationships, but their payroll was seventh this season. Now it's still top 10, but it's seventh, not number one, not number two, not number three. This wasn't a team that was just like throwing its money around. Now it's going to get higher. Like the payroll is going to keep growing. They're going to start having tax concerns. And second apron concerns and whatever, but this was not some big market bill. This was a, any team with, with lesser resources in any market could have done something like this. And so I think that's important to note too. You know, I thought about, or I thought a lot about the Washington Wizards, um, during this run. And I think teams are just, sorry. The reason why I did though is because, no, the reason why I thought about it is because like, I think that's just going to be the new model, right? Like, I think that you're right. And like, I think the teams need to have a vision. For what they want to do, identifying players and building around them. Right. But I think what you're also going to see, and it remains to be seen, you know, what the Washington Wizards hold in this, but I thought about their Trey Young trade, whatever they, you know, I don't know that they think that he's going to be Brunson and what the future is going to be, but I think you're going to start seeing a lot more flyers being, um, taken. Right. And just a lot of teams just saying, fuck it. Like, let's just try it, especially with the Eastern conference, the way it is. Right. And like, Hey, maybe we can do that and maybe we can get into the mix. And, um, it's a longer process what the knicks showed us that wasn't overnight this is like the second um uh second um how would i say this was the second infancy or the second uh version of this type of team right because they traded for cat and and they did make a metamorph have a metamorphosis as they um you know went on but i thought about the wizards and that like i think they're the model of what teams are going to be because not all teams are going to get this right but i think in the new um collective bargain room in the new era that we're in you're just gonna have to just try shit and pivot and i think this is how we're gonna see and i'm curious to see what type of movement is going to happen but i'm also curious to see like how many of the bad teams just try to use this model and just kind of maybe just try to short circuit and be like hey we're just going to do this really quickly just to get better because the knicks did it when not actually seeing hey this was a methodical multi-year process you um so we'll see i think it's just a good and a bad thing but i thought about the wizard because i was like oh okay it's a curious move to get trey young but maybe their vision is like hey maybe fuck it is a it's a it's a wide open eastern conference let's just take our chances and you know we might be validated because the knicks did a version of this maybe less wide open than it was right because the knicks are now champions and the celtics are still formidable to say the least and we'll see what they do if they end up with yannis or not and the pistons may be one player away from being like super super good and they were a 60 win team last year um and the pacers are getting haliburton back and are going to be right there in the mix so i'm not sure how how wide open it is i i think there are multiple contenders we can call it that way um sorry cliff no um no six is chill bro come on listen cliff you you know uh how how much benefit of the doubt at my own expense of my reputation i was giving your team for the last year or two i think i'm done for now um the the top of the east is now really formidable and and i think that's interesting the the trey young thing is interesting logan because another small guard right like it's not and it's like not like they're building around him because they also got anthony davis i'm not sure how long either of those guys are going to be there so quick asterisk on all of this i don't know what the wizards are actually doing but if those guys stay they are trying to accelerate their build they've got uh you know a great pick coming and more talent and they've got some you know the alex sars and everybody else's um i don't know what to make of the wizards yet but they are they are banking on another small guard and trey young quick note quick can i just go back to the small guard thing for a second yeah um because a friend of mine um was hitting me right after like literally hours i think after the championship and saying maybe it was the day before but it was like why why are we stuck on this thing didn't steph already disprove it didn't isaiah already disprove it and and so i had to like step back and think about it for a minute and why we're still stuck on this thing and maybe we'll be less stuck on it now that jalen brunson has led the knicks to the title um i think jalen's listed to like six two six three but like that's a really really generous like i've stood next to him and i don't think he's that much taller than me and i'm a tad under six feet so um steph is listed at six two isaiah is listed at six one isaiah thomas had dennis rodman joe dumars bill and beer mark aguirre rick mahorn you know for those two championships some combination of those guys so yeah small guard but like with brunson you had the right guys around you and in isaiah's case like serious hall of famers and like like dennis rodman freak of nature and like an all-time unique player steph you know he's the greatest shooter of all time so he's an anomaly anyway so you can be you can be short as long as you're short and the greatest shooter of all time that would be the lesson of steph also having the second greatest shooter of all time and clay thompson next to you also having one of the greatest defenders of all time and draymond green there and oh yeah for for championships two and three kevin durant um who was way taller than six two um so like there were there are circumstances around both steph and isaiah but there's a reason these are rare because it is harder to build a championship team around a small guard like saying it's never is the problem never you can't won't never happen that's the problem is being absolutist about it is it harder i think yeah i think demonstrably over 80 years of the nba you can see that it is the other thing to remember historically is that when michael jordan won in the 90s and then won again and again and again and again that was considered a seismic shift because the league had been dominated by the kareem abdul-jabbar's and the wilt chamberlain's and the bill russell's and oh yeah magic and bird come along but those guys are like you know six seven six eight uh and also had like magic had kareem bird had parish and mikhail so michael at six six as a shooting guard building a championship team a dynasty around a shooting guard was unheard of until michael did it and so that was considered a seismic shift at the time even so the size mattering part of this it's understandable like this is the history of the nba we we are still stuck on this thing about small guards in part because we had a model for a very long time you needed a dominant big or then you needed a michael jordan or michael jordan clone kobe bryant even then kobe had shack i think you just need great players i think that's the i think that's the model here it's hard to build it's hard to build teams because there's a there's a small amount of big players if you if you sorted the mv the finals mvps of every finals in history by height the number of guys you're gonna get at the bottom end of there in the six to six two range like that's gonna be the smallest category well for a long time look for for a long time they didn't ask six two players to be primary scorers like that was not what a point guard's role was through decades of the nba existing like that was not what a point guard's role was through decades of the nba existing like your job was to set the table and let the big do the work or let the wing do the work so i do think we're in a in an interesting like era of basketball where people are realizing you know that that that those guys have offensive weaponry in their repertoire too doesn't mean it's any less easy for them to win at that size but like that they can be primary scorers in a way that generations past they they weren't just even interested in hearing that um you know like a ai ai was ai ai gets they got the recipe wrong around ai like what they tried to do was just make it all defense and all you need a you need real offensive weaponry with that primary scorer so that when they make that blanket defense for him you have an og or a cat or someone that can supplement to the tune of 35 or whatever that looks like to keep them honest um and we didn't i would i just look i i tony is another one like if you go back and look at that team you know clearly it's tim duncan's team but like on any given night tony parker was the problem like he was an absolute problem he's got a finals mvp yeah look at the foundation yeah yeah look at the the chauncey billups led pistons like chauncey's six two six three i mean they had a real team no disrespect to rip and all of those dudes but like chauncey was kind of an an engine of what they did have to get the recipe right and we're in we're in an age now where quite frankly you might see it more and more because a lot of these dudes are being taught to play the game not just as a facilitator like you're having more people come in to this league um young blood with the sixers um what's what sorry dude why am i drawing a blank vj maxi well how big is maxi six three six two six three six two maybe six four on a good day i don't think six four listed at six two yeah and and if you're listed at six two like you might be six one so like i've never stood next to him i don't know but but the point is like you're you're in an era where that's going to be more accepted and you're going to have more people willing to swing at someone at that size that is really really good at putting the ball in the cup and then trying to build around that special talent so you might see it more i don't know i i i did want to add one other quick thing here just as an observation um because i think um once you know brunson has this absolutely it's incredible game five and an absolutely incredible last eight minutes of game five to clinch the championship finals mvp worthy of all of it worthy of all the accolades he was amazing lost in all this is that the spurs actually did a pretty damn good job on brunson for most of the series and and and especially the first three quarters of most of those games it was the fourth quarters of the final minutes of games that dragged um jalen brunson five games in the nba finals he shot 43 on twos that is a career low in any playoff series for jalen brunson by by a pretty decent measure um 19 assists in the series a career worse that was just five games uh excuse me 23 assists 19 turnovers in five games that is a career worst and he's had longer series than that so 19 turnovers in five games is is pretty bad point being and especially through the first like three or four games i had done this exercise like all of these things were were among his career worst field goal percentage uh turnovers assists they were doing a good job of bottling him up except if occasionally he'd say fuck you i don't care what you're doing to me i don't care if wimby's standing there i don't care if castle's on me i don't care if harper's on me like i don't care how many great defenders you have to throw at me it's my time and i'm doing my thing and that is the greatness of jalen brunson it's that you can he can get bottled up or a little rattled or maybe not rattled they they did have him in in tough places to make you know taking and missing tough shots but when it's winning time that's what that dude is wired for. And that's the part that you cannot quantify no matter what his size is or anything else. Like that's the greatness of Jalen Brunson, but they did do a pretty damn good job on him. Also not for nothing. Of course, when B is the key to that, uh, that defense and you see the on off numbers, every time he sat like they win the minutes he's on the court, they lose the minutes he's off the court, but in fourth quarters, he's gassed. And again, if you go quarter by quarter on when B's personal net rating, it's incredible off the charts. Plus in the first quarter, it's a little weaker in the second and third quarters. And it falls off a cliff in the fourth quarter. Cause he was gassed. And so, you know, there are two, still two sides of the equation here. Um, and this is a case where the Spurs could not muster enough of what made them of what got them those leads. They could not sustain it in those fourth quarters because they were gassed inexperienced, both whatever. It's the same. I mean, it's all goes, that all goes together. That's, that's, yes. Gassed inexperienced. Like this is when, when we came into the league, like this is what people were saying. Like, I think when, when some of us older people said his body, like, and it didn't manifest itself in regular season, him being hurt or anything like that. There was a lot of people, you know, saying, oh, that was no, that's that, that wasn't going to be an issue, but that it is something that gets better over time. Like he came into the league and it got better to this year and it was incredible, but it will have to take another jump in terms of just his overall strength and, and, and ability to absorb the type of punishment that he has to absorb over the course of a season to ultimately be in the type of condition to finish those games. So I just think that's, that's a, that's a young player on his arc. Those two things go hand in hand, you know, this episode is brought to you by EA sports, FC 27. 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Chevrolet together. Let's drive. Visit Chevy.com. Slash trucks to explore the lineup. For sure. And I tell you what, the monks better implement some conditioning drills this summer with Wendy. The monks got to get them in the gym. They got to get them in the gym. Okay. They need to get his ass on that block. Yeah. Listen. All right. No, no, no, no. I know how crazy that sounds. Discussion. No, no, no. I know how crazy it is right now. Cause there was some other stuff next related that we will get back to, but I want to have the one be discussion right now. I'm going to say my observations, Roger, and I'm going to throw them your way. There was, I think ever since after game one of the conference finals, when he had that 41 and 24 game, there was a lack of aggression from Wendy throughout the post season, I believe. Right. And we talked about it, even the start of this next series, right. Where it was like, there was a lot of settling for threes. There was a lot of just indecision. The lane was right there when I remember, I think I said this after game one or two, I'm like, yo cat is giving you the lane, bro. Go to, go to the cup. And there will be maybe one or two plays where he would like, kind of finally figure it out. And usually it was when the spurs were down that he would maybe get a dunk with the left hand. And then there was another thing where, I mean, the port point guard play in this finals from the spurs was just atrocious. So like this, like point guard specific play. And I know Dylan Harper played really well. We'll get to him in a minute, but like the combination of Darren Fox and Stefan castle in terms of trying to organize an offense was really, really bad. And if he had, if Wimby had a point guard, I believe it's like, don't get your ass in a block. I'm not passing you the ball until you get your ass in the block. The Knicks went super small and he still wasn't dunking on their faces, right? Like it was just such a, that's my observation, rather than my own point. How did, how did you feel about his aggression or lack there of aggression in this post in this final specifically? Point guard play was less than, than stellar. For the Spurs. I don't think that a point guard was the issue with Wimby being where he was on the floor. I think that is because of Wimby skillset. I think that the Spurs identified what he does well and where he likes to get the ball. And that's what they had to play out of this year. So I don't think a point guard telling him to get on the block was going to make him go to the block. He does not want to be there. Like that's not where he wants to be over and over again. Um, I, I, I, I, you know, yeah, there were, there were look, man, you could see a lane from 22, 23 feet to the basket. You could look, you could see it right. And at seven, six, bro, like that's, that's a lot of body and a lot of time that it takes to get from 23 feet to five feet from the rim. Right. And so, and there are four other defenders on the floor that can disrupt that. And so, you know, it's not as simple as saying, Oh, there's a lane, go get it. Like he's, he's looking around. He's seeing people in gaps. He's seeing somebody loaded behind it. Like there's a lot going on. That's why I say, all right, you ever been to like the YMCA or, or you're in pickup games or go watch a, a old pro like, like me. And I'm not comparing myself to Wimby at all. Let's get that straight. But if I went to play right now, do you know where I would play most of the game? Where? On the corner? I play it in the mid, I play it in the mid post. Okay. I play it in the mid post to low post, uh, provided I had a good matchup and I'd live there. It takes less out of you. That's what LeBron learned. It takes less out of, you know how hard it is to be living from 23 feet. You're talking about a guy who's already gassed already is kind of slight a frame. And you're saying his numbers are dropping off a cliff in the fourth quarter. And you're going to ask him to have to work from 23 feet away from the basket all night. Every game leaves for him with six minutes left of the fourth quarter. It's ridiculous. It's no, it's not ridiculous. I shouldn't say that, but it was kind of ridiculous to watch because, and again on his arc, he will get this, but he doesn't have to turn into a back to the basket post player like Shaq. That's not what anyone is saying. That's certainly not what I'm saying. What I am saying though, is that there are times in a basketball game where because of the, the, the defensive scheme, the spacing on the floor, your level of fatigue, it behooves you to get up and play. To get a better catch in a more desirable position on the floor, where it's going to take less out of you to execute said shot. Right. And that could be a fade away. That could be, that could, you know, whatever you feel comfortable with in those spaces, mid post to low post, do it, but get there. So the catch is easy. Yo, just put it to my hand. Boom. Now I'm seven, six. I'm just going up over the top of, there's very little you can do with that. Michael Jordan was six, six. Who blocked his fade? That one Kobe was six, six. No one you're seven, five. Like there's a reason Kobe. There's a reason Kobe didn't always have me out in space or the better defenders out in space, trying to beat them off the bounce. That's fucking really hard. And there's a lot of people helping us. So what was Kobe's answer? Hey bro, get off of the ball. I don't want it out here at the top of the key. Let me get behind the defense. Give it to me in the mid post to, like three quarters and I'll get a catch. I've got a live dribble and now I'm Roger's smaller than me. And I'm just going to play him here with a live dribble and I can see the defense come in. And most of the times it won't even fucking matter because this is just going to be make or miss for me, dude. Yeah. And he needs to find that they need to find that for him. That'll help them carry and close games. Roger. I felt watching this series, like, and I told Howard, this is the discussion point after the finals. It was like, damn, I can't wait to see when B, in three years, because in a lot of ways, it felt like the Spurs team had supreme talent, which is why they got here. Right. And, you know, they had, you know, gumption. They, you know, they, they were a better team against. Okay. See all those things. But when I say that they got in on talent, it was like, there's other things that you can do to make the game easier, that the Knicks kind of mastered down the stretch of games that the, that the Spurs just didn't have yet. Right. Like once we were always talking about one of the others, you're going to drop in terms of their lack of experience. And I think that this is what we saw, but one of the biggest takeaways that I saw was like, damn, when B, you can make this game easier than it is right now for you. Just with this, some simple stuff. Right. And it, he just isn't there yet. And that was the thing that I kept just seeing, seeing, um, well, let me, let me just, I'm sorry, but because like, look, we talk about unicorns and we talk about, you know, skill sets and we talk about all that. And then like, go to every, go to greets, like go to the greets and look how their skillset, when it matters the most shrinks. I mean, they don't lose the skillset, but they don't. rely on having to pull at 1,000 different skills. They distill that down to a couple of things that they really want to do and a couple of spots on the floor that they'd ideally really like to get to. And that's what they do because it simplifies it. It's almost a master, like a jack of all trades and a master of none, right? You need to become a master of something that's in those areas that it becomes easier for you late in games, not just from an execution standpoint, but from a thought process standpoint. This is where I'm going. This is what I want to do. Shit, I just talked to fucking Ty about that in the car today. Like, yo, bro, you have to have something that you know, given four seconds on any given spot on the floor, this is what I'm getting to provided you let me get to that. If you don't have that, you're just drawing at a certain point. So let's talk about how we what we think about Limby before these playoffs first after, right? Because the game is one thing, Raj and Beck, but she's like, there's a bit of a villain arc that is coming across, right? Like he, I referenced him being a bully throughout this postseason. He like, there's the alleged like, you know, targeting that he was doing in the OKC series. There was a shit that the bullshit that he was doing to Jalen Brunson when he was giving him a little hip check. Like he was. What's up? Can I ask you all a question? Because I know you're the whole ref thing was I did see the ink. I did see that. Y'all feel what I'm saying now? Y'all saw the angle roll. You saw Jalen Brunson get a flagrant one for stepping under someone earlier in that series, bro. Like, and then you saw, but then you saw when you feel me stepping under people as well. Like he was, that's what I, what I'm saying though. And no, and, and you're going to review that and we don't give a flagrant. Yeah. What are we doing? It's like it, it, it, but like I, from what I see Roger is that on one hand, and this is like the perfect villain thing that I'm thinking about, right? Because on one hand, you're giving the impression when you do that, that the league feels some type of way about this player and doesn't feel another and the players and everybody else is starting to feel another way about him. Right. Because we saw the Nas read situation where he does it. The, the, the, the punishment didn't seem like it added up to the action, right? We saw the stepping up underneath people. We saw, we saw him get these curious ejections. We saw him fuck up a star player on the other team in like no retribution. Right. And so it feels like a turn Howard Beck. It does feel like that. I'm sorry. I wanted to cut you. I just wanted to get that point out that we're starting to see these instances where there is a gap between where the league is putting this guy and where the league's players are starting to feel like, hold on, bro. What the fuck is he doing, man? Like, this is a, there, there's going to be an argument like, Oh, this motherfucker is a dirty player, dude. Like, this is your guy. This is your guy right here. Right. And he's not shaking hands after a game, any of the series when he loses. Oh, okay. Michelle, you really don't fuck with us. You don't really fuck with what they, the, the game and the basketball gods require of you. We see what's going on here that I can definitely say that the players are starting to feel that Howard. Sure. Real quick. Um, the landing zone violations, which if you catch them in real time are of course a flagrant one. If the officials determined that, that that's what happened, you didn't give them space to land. Um, um, fun, uh, little trivia note here. Cause I, I got this information yesterday. Do you guys know the last time? Cause, cause they didn't catch it in real time. Right. And then the question became, Oh, what's that? Should they have gotten, should they have then upgraded it retroactively? And in the, in the case of game five, if there had been a game six, Ooh, are they gonna upgrade retroactively? Now the league has to decide whether or not Wimby is going to be suspended for a game six real quick. Do you guys know the last time you don't, but I'm just going to ask you, the last time the NBA retroactively gave a guy a flagrant for a landing zone violation that they missed in real time. So the league office retroactively, no, a landing zone violation. I don't know who it was. Do you know how long it's been since the last time they retroactively gave a guy a flagrant? Was it Jalen Rose? It wasn't Jalen Rose in the finals in 2000, right? Was it, was that even a rule back then? I don't think it was a rule until Zaza and Kawhi. So I had people do that to me intentionally and there wasn't even a foul or anything. So it wasn't a thing back then. Uh, Bruce Bowen did it all the time. Hi Bruce. Yeah. Um, it has been since 2019, the last time the NBA retroactively gave a guy. So I know this was like a talking point after the first one, after the second one and what would have happened in a game six, the NBA, while they do review everything and they do assess retroactive flagrants and sometimes even retroactive technicals, it's super, super rare for them to issue a retroactive landing zone violation flagrant. Um, I, I think because it is not considered as egregious, these are not, these are not intentionally violent plays. Sometimes it's just, you get tangled or you, you drifted or whatever. And in the case of the last one with, with Wemby and Brunson, they both drifted. Um, I think it was definitely over. I think they definitely missed it. Um, but I don't think the NBA was going to retroactively give it and not because of some conspiracy to protect Wemby, but just because they very rarely do it. 2019 was the last time. So it's just a worthwhile as people, you know, there was no chance. Yeah. There was no chance, but, but also Roger, not because they're protecting Wemby, but because they just, I understand, I understand what you're saying. And I saying, I slightly disagree with that. Like it was going to be convenient. It was going to be convenient for them to lean on. We rarely do this, but like, even if they had done it, they weren't doing it. No. And Draymond green does that in his prime in this playoffs. And he has to get out of your thing. They're giving him the fuck out of your history matters though. Let's say your history. No, no. But what I'm saying though, Howard right now is Wemby is your history shouldn't matter like that. It does. Why should always wait, wait, Howard, why should your history matter on it? Because your history should wait a minute. Your history should matter on something that's subjective. That's not subjective. You fucking encroached on his landing zone. The rule says if he comes down on you, that is a fucking flagrant. So like now you're talking about like pushing and shoving and all of that. And you want to say, Oh, well, that didn't rise to the level, but his history suggests that he is an instigator. I co-sign on that. But on something as cut and dry as a landing zone infraction, when your other star player has clearly rolled his ankle, I don't think your history should come in, come into play there. That's cut and dry. No, no, no. You're right. They're different things. I agree with everything you just said. I'm only objecting to Logan's invoking of Draymond because he's such an easy trigger point. If Draymond had done X, Y, Z. Yeah. Draymond does a lot of shit and he has a history. Like a foul is a foul. You don't like, like, Oh, that guy never fouls a three-point shooter. We shouldn't give him these. Yeah. That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But also I would say this though, like I do, I do believe that is a fair point. And I'll give you that. I do believe though, that this post-season, Wimby is starting to build a reputation. I think that is very clear. So you asked me that. Clear cut. And I hadn't answered yet. It's interesting because like, it's only year three for him. Right. And I think over the course of his first two years, our, our, our broad impression of Wimby as a personality, as a figure, as well as as a basketball player is polished beyond his years. He's thoughtful. Yeah. He's going in and hanging with the Shaolin monks, but also like he's reading books and he's going and playing chess in Washington square park and just his interviews are very thoughtful. Um, and so I think that the broad outline of him, the impression of him that we have perceived and that we, as the media have then I think amplified is this is a guy who's really polished and professional and thoughtful. And, you know, and in a lot of ways comes off as very like, um, you know, kind feels like the wrong word. Cause he is a competitor, but like there wasn't just an aspect of him that seemed to be kind of, you know, almost like this, like, you know, virtuous basketball figure, right. He's dominant, but he's not, but he's, he's not vicious. Right. And we've seen guys who, who model themselves as killers. Kobe would refer to himself as a killer. Iverson was a killer. Jordan was a killer. Shaq wanted to stuff you in the basket. And we didn't see Wimby that way in part because of his people. He's there's always the European thing. Um, it's a lot of things, but this is the first time over the last few weeks where it's like, Oh, Oh, he's got an edge. And at times that actually came off, I think is positive. Like in the thunder series. Um, some of the things he was doing, it was just like, Oh, I like how, how emphatic he's being. I like how aggressive he's being. And then the finals are spilled over into that. Yeah. No, that and those narrow narratives, bro, because people don't give Lou Dort that kind of grace. Okay. History, history of pulling shit. You don't know, but he's got a, but you ain't seen the clip of this man trying to kick somebody's knee. If that had been Lou Dort in the finals, people would have lost their ever loving mind in part because he's getting too much grace, but now you have a history, but now you know, but now you have a history. You have a history now. He does Roger over the last two weeks. Now, he's got a history. He's got a history. He's got a history. He's got a he does now next season. If you want to say he's got a, he tried to break someone's, he tried to break someone's face in the first round of the playoffs. He tried to decapitate someone, Howard. It was like, you guys think that's funny. I tried to like, no, no, no, there's, this isn't even debatable. Like I won't even debate this with you all. I, what he tried to do to Nas read was break his face and everybody pawned it off. Like it was not this big deal. I've been there. Like he tried to break that man's face. I think what I'm trying to say here, Raja, is we had an impression, Built on a couple of years of him playing a certain way and presenting a certain way, speaking a certain way, and that has changed in the last, not maybe just two weeks, maybe the last six weeks, whatever it's been, starting from Nas Reid forward. Until the Nas Reid thing happened, there had not been a Nas Reid thing. That's my point. It's not that we should let him off the hook or that we should view him differently than Lou Dort. It's that Lou Dort already had all this built up, so every time he does it, we go, there goes Lou Dort again. Now that Wemby's done all this for the last six weeks, if you want to say, there goes Wemby again, fine. If you want to say he's dirty, however you want to classify him, that's fine. Next year, we own that. Okay, it changed in the last month and a half. I'm fine with that, Howard. If we're going to have that energy, I'm fine with that. I'm not arguing with you on that. What I would say to the Lou Dort is, been in the league a lot longer and didn't have a history until he had a history. Sure. Right? So once you start having the history, we got to keep the same energy. And that's like. That's always my beef because, and this is personal to me, I'm not going to sit on here and act like it's not, people would tell you that I used to put my foot under people's ankles and roll. I'm not immune to someone sending me one of those. And I'm like, wait, I've never done that ever in my career. But I get lumped into that because there's one narrative for us, and then there's another narrative for star players. I had a star player who came to my team, put his foot under my. And I rang him up on that shit in film, like one of his first days, like, yo, my man, you trying to tell me you ain't do that shit on purpose? No, I ain't do it on purpose. I ain't do it on purpose. So I took his ass to the film room, showed it to him. Oh, yeah, my bad. Like, yeah. But like you guys, like the media typically doesn't keep the same energy for some of us that they then do for the stars. And that's all I'm asking for. That's personal to me. Like he got a history now in my book. Yeah. I mean, I think we're all in agreeance there on that. He has a history now. We're going to be looking closely on it. What I do think, though, and I think it's another point, and I think that we get, as a media apparatus, I do think that we get so in love with the storytelling aspect of it. Like, this is great. You know, like, this is what we're going to do. He's not a villain. He is an interesting subject for us, right? And so I think that that may lead to just how we talk about things in a way that I don't think that aligns maybe with what's going on. Or maybe it doesn't take into care. Or maybe it doesn't take into all of the parties involved. It's human nature. It's human nature. He's three years in, and we're still learning about him. Yeah. And he might not transgress anymore, and that's fine. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying. I'm 22. Yeah. But, like, there has been some history of that. And as far as the stars go, look, I understand that, bro. Like, these are star-driven leagues with star-driven narratives, and it's not fun for fans. You know, like, you got to have the antagonist and stuff like that. Like, I'm good with that. It's just a hard. It happens. History is a hard thing for me because no one has a history, right? Like, no one came into the NBA on their first game and rung up two flagrants, and now you're like, oh, for the rest of his career, there's going to be a history. So, like, it starts to evolve and happen, and then once you get it, you have it, and he's no different in that regard. And so we all agree. But, like, he could very easily not have any more flagrants and not be sticking his foot under people's legs and not try to break somebody's face, and then you're fine. Yeah. Two more questions before we go to… Oh, yeah. I was just going to say, real quick. We also, though, and by we, and this is not just media, I think, Raja, I think you and other former players kind of get caught up in this, too, though. Guys get tagged, especially European players, still, after all this time, they're still a little bit like the soft label, and especially if you're built the way he's built. I think about Pau Gasol and how skinny he was when he came in, and then they're constantly having to fight this uphill battle about, like, are they tough enough and this and that. And, like, part of the way you make your bones in the NBA and you change that reputation is if they're beating you up, beat them back. And so he lost it a couple times, and he certainly overstepped, but, like, there's a certain aspect of it where I think there are some people who are probably privately saying, like, fuck, yeah, I'm glad he did that. He needs to do that. Like, that's part of his growth, too. Just don't go over the line and don't hurt anybody. Yeah. No, look, I've been one of those people. I mean, yeah, dude, like, you got to defend yourself. Like, I'm not… If I got on here and said anything to the contrary of that, I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world, because I am firmly in the camp of, once you get to the point where you're you feel like you've had enough, you got to handle your business. That's just, like, human being shit. But there's a line that's drawn as to what's acceptable for that. And if you cross it, like, I crossed it immediately and forever. I live in that space. I can't get out of it. Once you cross it, you live with the… I don't want to hear, oh, he was soft, and so he did it, and then now, like, we're just going to… Well, I wasn't soft, and I did it. So, like, I don't want to hear, oh, he was soft, and so he did it. I don't get the pass? I don't know if it's about pass or not. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, I just… Yeah. I think there's almost a… One, it's sometimes a no-win situation, and two, we, the chattering classes, media and fans, if a guy doesn't stick up for himself and is not physical, we knock him for being soft. They stick up for themselves, they get physical, they maybe cross a line, and now it's like, now you're a villain and you're a terrible person. And it's like… But, Roger, that's exactly what you experienced, right? Like, one incident, and suddenly you're tagged for the rest of your career. This is what I'm saying. Because everything is oversimplified, and because these… And especially now, between social media and 24-7 debate shows, every day it has to be one extreme or the other. I don't think on this show the three of us are guilty of that, generally speaking. I think we're trying to live in the nuance, and even as we hash this out in real time here, we're trying to find, like, where is, like, the fair version of this that is not extreme, but we're living in times… When everything is just teased out to the nth degree and hyperbolized, if that's even a word. And so I'm just, like, I try to push back against the extremes, and I'm always… I am trying to find that middle space there, and I think in Wemby's case, we're going to go into next season with a different impression of him, both positively and negatively, and the question is, what does he do next? Yeah. I agree. I agree. I would… I'd be remiss, though, like, if we're doing this in real time. There is a difference between… Physically standing up and pushing back and putting your feet under someone in their landing zone. That's not a tough play. That's not… That's not… That's not a tough play. Like, and so there are plays that you can make where you're, you know, boom, you're bumping, you're bumping, you throw a guy to the ground. Like, I'm fine with that. Like, you know, even the one with Jalen Brunson should have been a flagrant because you mushed him. But, like, hey, you know, like, if you would… If you thought he was up in your ribs… And he was, like, trying to break your ribs and you got his little ass off you, I'm okay. Like, I'm okay with that. But they do start to pile up. And when there's, you know, Hansel and Gretel, there's a trail. Like, you got to follow that damn trail, you know? And if it leads you to a place where you're like, well, shit, there's enough evidence. Like, I just… Well, I agree with you, Howard. I hate the world we live in where you got to be one thing or the other. Some people in the league, like, my time has passed, but some people in the league still can't get out of that. They can't get out of that box no matter what. Right? And so, all I'm saying is it's sticking up because I was one of them. I don't think it's necessarily fair because of your stature as a player in the league to avoid being put in that box if there's enough evidence to put you in that box. Even if it's just until you prove otherwise. That's all I'm saying. He's getting scrutinized. I don't think anybody's giving him a pass. Okay. Two more things I don't want to get through. One thing. Howard, do you feel vindicated that… Your De'Aaron Fox trade take from the end of the season is now receiver pitch? Not necessarily. They probably needed him for this run, but I mean… Right is on the wall or no? I don't think you trade him because of what happened in the finals. I think if you trade him, you do it because partially contract and partially because Dylan Harper just needs all the runway in the world now. Yeah. Between Dylan Harper and Stephon Castle, like, you're set. So, the day is coming. It may not be this… It may not be next season, but, like, De'Aaron Fox is not going to be there for the next two, three years, I don't think. So, that was my impulse at the time they drafted Dylan Harper. It's certainly emboldened by this. Certainly emboldened by running into Ron Harper in the hallway right after game five. He's the first person I saw downstairs. Proud daddy. Feeling pretty good. Like, yeah, they lost and all that stuff, but, like, what… Yeah, we talked a little bit about Dylan. That's going to be Roger in, like, five years. He's like… Wow. That's from your lips, bro. Yeah. Basically, it's like, wait till you see what he comes back as, you know, next season. That's awesome, though. Anyway, I don't know if De'Aaron Fox will get traded, but, like, it's pretty damn clear that Dylan Harper is going to be an absolute fucking stud in this league. Shout out to Ron Harper, so… Rod, thoughts on the Fox situation and the Poingar situation as a whole in San Antonio? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't great. I had a lot of people asking me, obviously, I wasn't on the pod, but about the, do you sit De'Aaron Fox and start, you know… So, Dylan and… I was on the side of no, because I think you want to keep it as comfortable and as usual and as normal for them as possible in a run like that. But I would agree with Howard 100%. What he showed you in this playoff run as a first-year player has got to be so exciting for not only dad, but the organization, that you want to do everything you can to support that arc. and him getting to the top of that trajectory as fast as possible. So, you know, within the team concept, because obviously we have to keep winning, it can't just be we're forgetting everything to get him to that point, but we certainly have to figure out how to get him to that point as quick as possible and continue to win games. And if that means, and it does mean having him on the floor more and letting him play through some stuff and having him have to figure it out because it's all on him in the realm of point guardedness and taking care of the ball and getting us into offense, then you do what you have to do to make that happen. Yeah. One other thing that I want to get to before we're out of the week, the trajectory of Mike Brown. Wow. Yeah. So happy for you, Mike Brown. Yeah, good for you, Mike Brown. Good shit, Mike Brown. Good for you, Mike Brown. Who let the dogs out? Yes. Oh, man. I'm glad that Mike Brown is in a position where he could actually show his personality, the one that we, me, I don't know if you saw it, Roger, but me and Beck have seen behind the scenes for a long time, that very gregarious personality that he doesn't show very often and that he's finally showing to the world. That is great. What is his trajectory, Howard, now that he has a title? I was thinking maybe it's a little bit of a Doc Rivers arc, right? Where he's always been known as maybe a good coach, but this championship kind of validates him in NBA lore, right? I don't know if Doc Rivers had a time where we thought, okay, Doc Rivers is the last job and he's out of the league, right? He's probably the last job. He's probably the last job of his career, right? Maybe this Bucs, probably this Bucs team was that for him, but Mike Brown was in a position when he got hired by the Knicks where it's like, ah, this is probably his last shot. This is probably the last. Now he goes from that to he's a champion. Now he's in NBA lore. What is that? How do you see the Mike Brown arc right now? And I'll go to Roger real quick. I think this is his fifth coaching stint because it was twice with Cleveland, LA, and Sacramento. And so by the time you are, at some point you're like the young hot shot. He was like the head coach of the Golden State Warriors for like four weeks, three weeks, three, four weeks or something like that, right? Doesn't count in the record books. But there's, you know, there's, you only get so many shots. One day you're the young up and comer that everybody's like. Especially if you're black. I did the math on this about 10 years ago and black head coaches, their average length of tenure compared to white head coaches. And I think this was both first timers and veterans, but especially first timers. And I think this was both first timers and veterans. Yeah, Dennis Erickson came in. Yeah, he did. And won a national tab. But he also plays Jimmy Johnson. So it's a little different. He did his thing, though. He did his thing. I think, was it Al, was it Coker? Was it Larry Coker won one, two? No. That was in 2000. Yeah, that was later. Let's get to Ruin of the Week. There's only can be one Ruin of the Week for us. It's our extended family. It's Ben motherfucking Stiller, man. It's Ben motherfucking Stiller for pulling up at one of the greatest moments of his sports life. The greatest. The greatest moment of his sports life, as he said on the podcast. And then blessing us with his presence, man. I want to tell the story. I need to go watch that pod? I need to go watch it. Yes, you do. At the very least, the section of his interview. The last 15 minutes. It was great. The last 15 minutes for sure. I want to tell the story of how it came together on the pod because Roz is hearing it for the first time. And I think that'd be really cool to just tell the listenership and just say how Ben has just become like a bit of family to Ruin. And so over the last two years, it's weird. He's, you know, it's crazy. But for the pod listeners, we were trying to get Ben to get. I'm going to start off, first of all, I'm going to start off with like my version of the story and then go to Howard because Howard has all of the intricacies of what happened on the ground. But Roz, you know this, we were trying to get Ben like before the finals and he was down. We were going to, we had a time locked in, but he had scheduling issues because he's like, one of the fucking hardest working people on the planet dude has like 87 jobs so he couldn't make it happen so we're trying to find with his people just trying to find times to get him on meanwhile he's transversing the globe being howard or transversing the globe um back and forth from stockholm he's going back and forth um between the world and gay in these games in san antonio and new york so we're trying to find a time and then um by game five it's like let's just try to figure out a time after the finals maybe and then like everybody just like so everybody went dark and we just like watching the finals like everybody else and then um then beck sees him in san antonio and then i'm gonna let beck take it from here on how everything went down from the the ground in san antonio everybody knows by now it's obviously that stiller was at all the games because he would be anyway but he was also documenting it he's he's talked a little bit about this in very brief form about what he's doing with a documentary so i'd already run into him at a couple practices in new york and so we chit-chat along the way but i wasn't bringing up the podcast thing because logan was working on that through like official channels after game five and i'm i'm running around all the back areas trying to find people whatever i get patrick ewing i got alan houston i'm just like looking for people to getting quotes and you know put it all in perspective all that stuff and there's there's ben so he's talking to sean powell from uh the great sean powell from nba.com long-time nba writer and i'm waiting for sean to kind of wind down so i i go up to ben hey man congrats how you feeling whatever so we chat for a little bit i get some official quotes from him that i can use in my story and all that stuff um in the meantime like people keep coming over wanting their photos i took i two or three different photos of cameras with them with ben because i'm standing there like what the hell i might as well i'm not on deadline yet i've got an hour and a half before we have to pod um and i introduced him to tom and i told the words real quick i told the words take your time to howard like yo take your time we'll be here when you need it because i know how it is in reporting trip it was also funny because i was like i'm not going to be here i was thinking about raja like i love raja i wish he was here for this moment but there ain't no way in hell raja's waiting around after a finals game and i'm telling howard to take his time to go report our agreement our agreement with each other and with our our beloved producers uh was we would do that we would start 90 minutes after so that we don't keep everyone up all night even though i had to stay up all night um so i am i'm in a frenzy for 90 minutes just running around trying to find people i stood in a stupid line to get into nick's locker room and there was nothing to see there once that's a story for another time um but i finally i get ben yeah and at one point tom crean walks up i know tom a little bit from uh from some summer league stuff we've done together and um so next thing you know i'm introducing tom crean to ben stiller as if these two wouldn't like would need an introduction like these are both very recognizable people but i'm just in a weird space at this point so i'm about to leave did they know did they know each other though like no no tom was like yeah tom had walked up and went oh hey and he goes i wanted to meet ben and so i was like oh hey ben ben ben stiller tom crean like like like they wouldn't recognize it was just this impromptu very in retrospect awkward silly stupid thing i did but um but it was fun so uh so then i took a photo of tom crean and his daughters with with ben um uh so i go ben listen i i gotta run um but by the way i'm gonna be potting a little bit down the hall here they got us this like this little room like behind the chapel room there's like some little uh you know meditation room or something that they got me set up i'm gonna go do a podcast you want to jump in feel free he's like oh yeah okay cool yeah well let's see what happens and then i'm like oh yeah but i had no thoughts whatsoever raja that this was going to happen because everybody and their brother wants to talk to him take photos with him interview him he's doing his documentary um he's you know probably going to some after party with chalamet and spike and tracy morgan or something like the last thing i thought was he got time for our little old podcast yeah so i find my way to that room i set up my people would laugh at the setup my laptop was literally perched on like one of those like branded coke refrigerators like that you see in the like the gyms or offices or whatever i just put it on there because i didn't have anything else that was high enough it's a total like makeshift setup we start potting at about what was it a little after midnight it was like 12 15 or something you're asleep rosa you're fucking not you're you're asleep it's um it would have been 1 15 your time because texas is an hour behind so it's very late we're potting for a good 30 40 minutes and suddenly my phone rings and i look down and it's ben and so i'm like uh guys hang on a sec i pull away i'm like hey where are you he's like hey i'm gonna come down i'm like what really okay um this is he's like where are you i'm like i'm trying to describe it right and also quick thing that san antonio and you've all played it you played in san antonio we've covered a lot of games san antonio they have all these fucking tunnels it's a labyrinth of the arena you can't like so i'm telling beck beck is like i got a pod but you can come in here i'm like beck get your ass out and go find him i say go find you go fucking find him go fucking find him so yeah logan and cliff are yelling at don't you know they're worried he's gonna like get lost or we're not gonna get him so i do pop out for a minute i have these guys who have like setting up all their equipment outside i'm like guys can you watch the room for me got all my stuff in there whatever like i gotta go find and i'm running around and i can't i i couldn't quite find him so then i call him but he's in the middle of something so the conversation was garbled and he's talking to two like cross talk all this i'm like ah i gotta get back but i know he's coming he's he said he's coming i told him the room that is i said just look for this room he finally i think followed by the text said the nba knows where it is they're gonna bring him so i sit back down i calm these motherfuckers down because they're all hyper you're like chill we're fine guys i told beck to get the fuck up again i said beck he's getting escorted i said beck it's like dude we're good relax there's a lot of raw footage cuts aware of us just like you know like yelling at each other but not in a bad way um it was a lot of just frenzy and it was late and we're punchy um but yeah so then i sat back and did you potting and then a little while later ben comes through the door so um he is he is absolutely the real one of the week that's probably oh my god and then like you gotta watch it we're gonna send you the link and then he fucking is like one's drunk we did it we did all the shits bye like he was like he's like look at do it do the do it you know and we're like it's like somebody said that it looked like a fucking student access show that beck and uh the lighting apologies to victoria oh and then we're gonna put it up on the screen we got this phenomenal picture of howard and beck doing blue steel at the end it was fucking incredible it was supposed to be a thumbnail but the lighting was terrible but um yeah it was great we we did it man so ben stiller like yeah i mean our guy our dude i'm glad you guys i'm glad you guys got to experience that that's that's pretty cool that's on that night for him like that energy had to be out of control sorry you missed it roger i know you missed it roger i know you missed it roger i know you know uh it's all right yeah yeah it's all right i'm gonna go back and watch it i'll just kind of just kind of put myself yeah yeah i'll just try to kind of insert myself into that that's cool that's cool um you're gonna make it the next time he's gonna come back on there you go at some point you know what i mean and you are all gonna be there we still are owed an in-person uh time in new york right we're both you're supposed to go fucking do a nicks game with them but we're supposed to have dinner in new york at some point i'm on that yeah we gotta um all right man uh ben motherfucking stiller um ruin of the week uh you got any more can i give a yeah i want to give a little shout out row one because my absolutely my young blood tie i was with him at the mbpa top 100 camp in rock hill and kairi was was a guest workout they got to watch kairi workout um with phil handy and phil was i hadn't seen phil in a while super cool watching those dudes like as it was like you know ties my my middle boy um he loves kairi he loves kairi kairi on kairi's signature drop the first night of his signature shoe in in cleveland he found tie and gave tie his shoe um and tie's been hooked ever since right like kairi is his dude so anyway like he comes in he works out i'm kind of in and out and tie comes up to me afterwards and it's like like he took a picture with kai while kai was walking out and stuff and he said dad he said i was hanging out over here and kairi had come in the gym behind me i didn't know it he was like and somebody kind of grabbed me by my shoulder and said yo what's up he was like dad he knew my name he knew my name he was like so anyway i'm giving kairi real one of the week because tie bell will be riding high off of that exchange for who knows how long um yo man i just i don't know to remember his name is like like that's crazy that's kind of wild so like real one for that i don't know what tie is going to be i know he's great and i know that he is just like i watch his highlights all the time and he's a phenomenal player but what a what a treat to like have you as his pops bro and like just the the way that he has been able to like like he sat in on the steph kerry ruins interview right like he's been studying these guys and like have a and he has like this like symmetry with these guys he's had some access right but he like beg you weren't here at the time but i swear when when steph came on this pod this dude had a razor focus like i'm learning everything that i can from him but also i'm learning everything i can to kick his ass one day or kick or get to this point and i don't know what tie is going to be but he has a lot of lessons right now and i can't wait to see what he is same with dia man you know i'm fans of your kids i'm super fans of them yeah i appreciate you bragging on them i appreciate that but but yeah the shine the shine for this segment for me the one b to obviously ben stiller kairi bro like that was pretty dope you made you made a kid's like month probably with that so i i thought that was real that's tight uh okay you know you're always last howard because you always have the the you know you know that the the way you like to take it for the rule of the week so if you have one go right ahead i i would have i would have of course uh gone ben and i co-signed that one but um city of san antonio is my real one of the week and the fans of san antonio here's why um so first time i've been there for the finals since obviously their last finals 12 years ago 2014 and it's not that i'd forgotten this but it's a good reminder when you land in a final city especially one that you've been to before every final city every every city every fan base has a little bit of a different vibe one of the cool things about the spurs it's partially because the way this downtown is built and you've got the riverwalk so you've got this an attraction down there's a there's a reason for people to go downtown right but when you're in san antonio you feel the fucking finals like you feel it you feel the passion of like the fans and how everybody's all in because every single place has signs up they've got like tall buildings where the the lights in the rooms at night are spelling out go spurs go flags are everywhere on cars and in you know shop windows and whatever and waitresses and waiters are all wearing spurs gear and it dude it is everywhere there are murals on on the like especially driving out uh to the outskirts or murals of like duncan and pop and tony and manu there's there's wimby alien murals like that place freaking lives for this team and i don't mean this as a stray at oklahoma but like i didn't feel it in oklahoma because oklahoma's downtown there's nobody the same way i didn't want to say that because it's like i don't want to say it fully on oklahoma city but i do feel you because i want to say this oklahoma city's fan base is incredible especially you know you're at the roof i was a fucking it was mind-blowing just like in the building almost literally mind-blowing because i think my head's going to explode it's so damn loud in that building they're also building that that that perimeter around their downtown they're still doing that in a way that san antonio has already historically had it that it's not a slight it's just you guys are building towards that that apparatus around with the new arena and also just the new restaurants around and and the thing is in the case of like oklahoma and a couple other cities like this where it's like at the time of the game and hours before and after the game and in the in the periphery of the arena you feel it but not extend it out and in san antonio it's like i could not go anywhere and i went i didn't stay downtown the whole time either like my old buddy mike monroe shout out uh to the great mike monroe uh legendary former nba writer still living in san antonio he took me to like his favorite mexican joint for breakfast that was more like toward his neighborhood like just like a little hole-in-the-wall place the food was out of this world it was absolutely awesome but um but even like it wasn't so it wasn't just like i was downtown it was it was no matter where i went in town everybody's in spurs everybody's talking about the spurs and i live in new york where stuff just gets swallowed up right like i was here for the finals obviously obviously new yorkers very passionate about the knicks before during and after there's no question about that but on a given day when someone says well what's it like in new york during the finals i'm like if you're not near the garden or midtown or certain other spots you're not going to be able to go to you might not know what's going on because it's new york and new york just swallows up everything there's so much going on here la because it's so spread out yeah you see the laker flags on cars and stuff like that san antonio is just kind of unique in the way it's built but also obviously the passion of that fan base um anyway it was just really enjoyable and really cool so shout out to spurs fans um they're gonna have a lot of better days ahead of them i believe i mean they've got good days right now but that team's gonna be back yeah they're good that's an awesome real ones though and i would just add to that howard that like i've never been there for a finals but i've been there for some western conference finals and and and even second round of the playoffs and they get it cracking like it feels like that for playoffs in general i'm sure it was amplified even more but that's one of those cities that you feel them in the playoffs leaving hotels walking around like you feel it they get it cracking in general i'm i randomly was on a fucking new year's eve in san antonio because the warriors just happen to be in san antonio or new year's eve and when i tell you and i was all i was at that weston on the riverwalk it was cracking it was cracking so shout out san antonio because they get it cracking you know when you go to random city and you're not ready you're not expecting to have as much fun as you did you know what i'm talking about where you're just like i'm here i'm not even san antonio if you know you know uh okay that's been another edition of real ones um we are back next thursday um and then we are going to be back next thursday and then we are going to be back next thursday um down around free agency so um that's why we gave you a little extra time damn near an hour and a half that's why roger's up for damn near an hour and a half um we will see you guys next week summer schedule dog we got drop off i'm about to head out right now all this shit bye must be 21 years and older and present in select states for kansas in affiliation with kansas star casino or 18 and older and present in dc kentucky or wyoming gambling problem call 1-800 gambler or my reset call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat in connecticut or visit md gambling help.org in maryland hope is here visit gambling help ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24 7 support in massachusetts or call 1-877 hope and y or text hope and y in new york for louisiana call 1-877-770-7867 having uncontrolled synophilic esophagitis or eoe can mean you're stuck in many ways like cutting your food into tiny pieces or stuck chewing food for a long time dupixent dupilumab a prescription medicine for patients one year and older weighing at least 33 pounds can help with that it's a breakthrough treatment that can reduce inflammation in the esophagus and improve swallowing how about this dupixent is not a steroid it proactively treats so you can get ahead of it severe allergic reactions including skin reactions can occur get help right away if you have trouble 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