NBA Finals Are Here! All the Info You Need from Podcast Row

[MUSIC] >> Coming up on the Zacklow show, not your normal episode. We are here in San Antonio at the NBA Finals, we're at the arena. They're setting up the t-shirts. The jumbo tron is on the court. I don't think it's supposed to be there. And we have a pulpery of guests for the NBA's first ever podcast row. Their answer to the NFL's radio row, it's a super bowl, I guess. We got Ian Beggley and Tim Legler to go X's and O's on the finals. And the Knicks and all the things about this series. And then we have some luminaries from NBA, past, present, and future talking about this series. Tellin' stories about their time in the NBA, their times in the finals. Gary Payton, legendary Seattle Supersonic and champion with the Miami Heat. Has some good stories about that and the Lakers. We got Big Shot Bob, Big Shot Robert. He's gonna tell us which one is actually right. Robert Ores here to tell a lot of great stories and pick this series. And then DeAndre or Jordan and I, we have a ceremonial burying of a certain hatchet that we will get into. And then we talk about DJ's career, the Clippers, the Knets, the Knicks, where Kyrie, Katie, and DJ are really gonna go to the Knicks. He answers that question. We get into all of that and more, including deep dives on this incredible Knicks first finals with Tim Legler, Ian Beggley. That's all coming up next on a special finals San Antonio podcast row edition of the Zach Loshio. All right, live from what they're apparently calling podcast row at the NBA finals in San Antonio. One of the all-time great Hall of Famer, one of the all-time great defensive players, a formative character in my NBA upbringing, Gary Payton. How are you? Good. I'm good. How are you? You ready to be at the finals? I'm always ready to be at the finals. This is gonna be a great situation. Great moment. I think, young team, one young team and one in the middle, so I'm gonna see what happens. Defensive player of the year, one of the best defenders of all time, the two main offensive cogs on these two teams could not be any more different than they are. If you had to switch on to Victor Wembeñama, what would you prime Gary Payton do to try to guard him on a switch? Well, what I would do is I would just try to keep him on a perimeter. You gotta keep him out there and try to make him dribble with basketball and I'll try to still a basketball, make him uncomfortable. I think that until he gets a bigger size and stature and can push me down, I would be underneath him a lot. I would try to make him uncomfortable and try to still a ball, hit at his hands and do things like that and just keep him on a perimeter. Was there anyone on the flip side who from your time was like, if anybody, most similar to Jalen Bronson in terms of trying to time up their footwork, old school game? You guarded a lot of great guards and playoff battles with John Stockton over and over again. Is there anyone that Bronson reminds you of and what are the challenges regarding him? John was the best to me ever but I think Nick Vagnaus will remind me of Bronson a lot because they both are lefties, they both can get to where they want to get and score the basketball. But Bronson is in a different era. We can hand check. We can be more physical. You know what I mean? It wasn't a lot of doubling. It wasn't a lot of zones. You can take him back on the other end of the floor and punish him and make him play defense and set it just letting us be on offense and be always the target. You got to have him to be the target and wear him down a little bit. And that's what I would have did to him. And that's why it was great for me because when somebody went at me, I can go back at them. I can call my own playing, I saw him and then make him play and then if people come and I can see him, I can dish in and get it to my guys. I think Nick Van Nelson was just like Bronson a day ago. They could shoot the mid-range. I think Nick shoot the three a little bit better than he did. But I'm just saying, he is right there. His mid-range game. Once he gets you into that spot, he's just like Shay. They're good. They're deadly from the free throw line in. But you know, a lot of pushing off has been happening. Yeah. What do you think of that? What do you think of the pushing off? That's a bit of big debate in the last six months. I don't like it because he doesn't get a defender or opportunity to guard anybody. He always gets the offensive player, the most advantage when he's pushing off and putting me off balance. I think you should let him play when he heads up. We wouldn't let that happen because I think of our hand-checking rule and we would have kept our hand on their hip. And if they were to push off, we can, they can see us getting pushed off and hop on our upper chest. But they're seeing now when you go down and you wear your shoulder and extend, that's a legal play. I don't think I don't think it's good for a defender because he can't guard that. All right. Let's talk finals, playoff history, Gary Payton, 96 finals, Sonic's Bulls, the famous stories that midway through the series. I think you're already down 3-0, maybe 3-0. You go to George Caron and you're like, "Hey man, it's about freaking time. Just let me guard Michael." So what do you remember from that conversation and did you ask already before the series even started? No, man, game one. Put me on Michael Jordan. I want to do it. Yeah, that was it. I had one defensive player in a year and he was a, he was an offensive guy at NBA. So I had, I wanted to do that, but I was hurt. And he didn't want to, he didn't want to exalt me, exert me and then make me, then I have no offense for us because I was our offensive guy too with Sean. So he didn't want to do that and run and wear me down. So when the time came and the game three, I told him no, I went in there, I went on a plan and I said, "I don't care what you say. I'm guarding from now on." No matter who you is, I better go up and take it. I'm taking him. I don't care who you are signing to, I'm taking him. And then it changed for us in the next two games and we made it a series. But you know, I said a guard in the game one and hopefully I wish it would have been different but we can't, we can't go into time caps. All right. Are you still in touch with Sean Cap? Like, I can close my eyes and see the left side pick and roll, Gary Peyton and Sean Capri. Yeah. I talk to him every day. It's about my phone call. Winning in a minute. So I talk to him yesterday. I talk to Sean. Him and Deathlift. I talk to a lot. We're best friends. Like I go see Deathlift in Palm Springs where he's at right now and Sean is in Seattle. I'll see Sean Friday. We're together Friday in Seattle. So I'm with them to a lot. So the City of Seattle still means something to you personally. Absolutely. When that team comes back, do you want to be involved with it? Something's going to be a big involvement with the team. It's going to be a big involvement with us. The group that's trying to get it, they are very involved with us and we're very involved with them. We want to make this successful. We know we should have never lost it. We shouldn't have never lost it. It's a super sonics, but it is what it is. NBA and Adam Silver has gave us the opportunity to get it back and now we're going to make it very, very good. I was going to ask you, if the Thunder or not here, the Spurs are here, but I was going to ask you either way, like as a Seattle guy, do you hold some hostility? If you've gotten over it, like how do you perceive the Thunder? Oh, hostility against against the guy who took it away from us and how it shoots. I hold him accountable for that. And I don't have nothing against Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City did what they were supposed to. Then it went and took the team to his home, to his hometown and did it. Who cared? We shouldn't have never lost it because of our bad ownership that we had. And that's what it was. So I'm just saying, it's great now that we got it back. It's been 19 years and it's going to be great for them to come back. And when they do come back, we're going to be a big part of it. A lot of us old school guys that was there and made it happen. We're going to try to make it happen again. So you get a title with the heat in 2006, but before that, the team that everyone thought you were going to get your title with with the 2004 Laker. So I went back and watched a little bit. I forgot. You threw the in bounce pass to Derek Fisher on the point four shot here. What do you remember, like about the play call? Was he the first option? When did you decide, like, what are you looking for when you decide, well, he's the guy I got to go to? I mean, it's not like a like a crazy daring pass, but it's a read you got to make. And I forgot you had thrown it. Well, you know, when we went in the huddle and feels there, feels drawn to play up to Kobe. And they was already reacting to Kobe. And remember, Kobe had made big shot. He had made a big one big shot to turn around and hit one to beat him earlier in the series. And I knew that we're going to look for him. And I just told Fish. I said, Fish, just run the play, man, because they're going to forget about you. And that was it. And I just made a decision. And I just said, that's why Phil had me taking the ball out because he was very confident in me and had had a lot of trust in me to make the right decision. And when I made a decision and we went back to the locker room, he said, you define me again. You know, never listen to me. I said, well, Phil, look what happened to me going, you know, and he was wide open. And they was looking for Kobe and Fish made a big shot. That was a tumultuous year for the VA for you. Have you read Phil's book about that season? I have. I have. Phil, Phil, Phil, he says what's on his mind and he does everything. And we had a we had a we had a heck of a year, but it was a more it was a learning experience for me. And the reason I like it is because I got to know Kobe better than anybody. And now he got to know him in a different way. And I miss him a lot. We were getting very close. He started being close with my son Gary, who's planning NBA now. I'm aware of I'm aware of it. So it's like I got I got to meet a guy that people just understood. He was just a competitor. He was a basketball player and he did things. Shaq was the reason I was there anyway. He's a brother to me too. Our family is just like almost like family. So it was one of the things that I got to play with Carmelon, which is one of my best friends too, as as of right now. and me and him got really, really close. So it was a great year for me to go to the Lakers and do that. We didn't complete the job. We were hurt all year and we still made it to the finals and played against a good Detroit team. - And obviously that's your Kobe's going back and forth from Colorado. - From Colorado, yeah. And that was a lot of things. And you forgot, Shaq was dealing with his contract issues. And then we only had, we only had Carl for 22 games. - And he was hurting the finals still. - Yeah, he was hurting the finals. He was missing him for 60 and then he got hurt right back when he came right back and hurt the same. It hurt the same, Andrew. And it was just something that wasn't meant for us to be. - So there's a story in that book I wanted to ask you about 'cause it doesn't sound like you. Phil tells the story about you're playing the pistons in the finals and Kobe says in some team meeting, hey man, I want to guard billups. I want to guard Chauncey and Kobe tells Phil later, I wasn't really agitated into guard Chauncey. I wanted Gary to speak up and say he wanted to stay on Chauncey and Gary didn't say anything. And that told me all he needed to know. Do you remember that? 'Cause I don't ever, I would never imagine you being like, I don't want to guard Chauncey or I'm on that. - I didn't, that it wasn't the way it went. We had a, what happened was everybody was blaming it 'cause Chauncey was making a lot of shots because we were there putting us in picking roles and there were putting us in the picking roles with Shaqiel. And everybody knows Shaq, he stays back and Chauncey was coming off shooting the jumpers and I was always behind him. So I said, hey, blame everything on me. I don't care. I said if we just play straight up, I can guard Chauncey because Chauncey wasn't that type of basketball player to get away from you and that's what it was. He was coming off picks and he was making it and what was happening is they were sucking it in and he was hitting a lot of open shots. And at that time I was so upset. I didn't want to make no animosity between people. So I just told Kobe, whatever, but I still guarding Chauncey. I still guarding him in the games and we just said forget it, but it was happening because our defense wasn't worth the way it was supposed to be with the Lakers at the time. And I didn't want to make no controversy. You know what I'm saying? I didn't want to start no things during the finals and I just wanted to keep it a quarter. - Couple more very quick questions. You are a legendary trash talker. Who in your time could rival you in trash talking? Only one guy I think would have did it and only played against two seasons and that was Larry Burr. I think Larry Burr was the best trash talker, I think it was the best that trash talk I ever heard. - Can you give me anything? Can you give me a laryism? - Well, Larry would always tell you, I'm a game with just one story. It was my rookie year. Xavier McDaniel was on our team. Him and Xavier was having a battle and they were doing like each other. And he told Larry, he told him that I'm a bunch, I'm a bunch of, hey, every time I play you, if I don't have as many points on you and they were blowing us out in the garden and they were up 20 and they said you know, we look at the bench at the score table and Larry Burr is coming back in. (laughing) He had already told us, he said, I'm a shooter jumper and Xavier's face. I'm a had as many points on him and if I don't, I'll quit basketball. And when he came back in, he said, I didn't got what I was supposed to have. And he said, yeah, X-man, he pulls me to X-man. Come on over here because I'm gonna shoot this next shot right here in his corner and if it hit anything at a rim, anything, I'm gonna keep shooting and I won't come back in the game. The next play, shot it, all net, didn't touch nothing and he had his 30 and he did, he went in and he sat out and he said, I told you, you ain't gonna never talk to me like that. And I was Larry Burr. We gotta go 'cause you gotta shuffle off to another podcast and I gotta shuffle something with him. But last question, you gotta pick for this series? Well, I think it's gonna go seven. I think it's gonna be a good series. I think that San Antonio's got a momentum. I think that Nick's got a momentum. But right now you start off here who's got the home court advantage. I think that it didn't happen last series with Oklahoma. But I think this next team is pretty, that's just San Antonio Spur as building something with the guy who's starting to take over the NBA. Start, yeah, it's happening. It's happening and I think that he's very, very mobile. He can guard a lot of things. He's gonna make a lot of havoc. But he's got a lot of four good other guys around him too with that little cast. He got around him. And I think they're very hungry. And I think they don't got over the top. They don't got over the hump of being young. Now they're here. And I think they're gonna get a take seven. Gary Payton says Spur is in seven. Gary, thank you for your time. And it's great to see you honor to have you on. Thank you. Next up on podcast row. I guess that's what they're calling it. Tim Legler. In the flesh of ESPN of the All-City Podcast, come on our podcast a bunch of times. How you doing? I'm great, man. You kidding me? Live in the dream. This is amazing. Good series, right? We've got a good matchup. We've got a good series. Could ask for more in the matchup. Story lines. I mean, I feel like if this doesn't peak your interest, and not forget basketball fans. Just like, if you like sports, if you just doesn't peak your interest, I don't know what's wrong with you. Wembee, by himself, has sparked so much curiosity among all the like casual fans in my life. And then you add in the nicks in 53 years in New York City. It's like a perfect storm of stuff I haven't gotten to talk to you. Game seven, Thunder Spurs. What was your reaction to that game? Whether it was chat, whether it was what did Wembee do to the Thunder offense, was it injuries? Like, if you were the thunder, what's your takeaway from having your would-be dynasty? At least stop for a moment. For me, making the checklist of kind of like, as I'm sitting at home at the Jersey Shore, it was nice. It was off, had a beer in my hand, watching the game with a couple buddies. What kind of beer? Take us to give us a picture. I got a new favorite beer. Can I say it? Yeah, a mango court. I don't even-- I think I have heard of that. I moved down to Florida five years ago. I saw it in the store like, what's this? They're like, oh, it's kind of like Blue Moon, but it's a thousand times better tasting. And they're right. So now this is-- I've always got my first stack up with mango court. Beautiful. So I'm drinking that and watching the game. So here's my thought process. The first thing, honestly, that my takeaway was-- what you're watching the game-- the way that their shooters and role players stepped up in every big spot, because it's like the funner. Correct. The thunder were like, right there, beneath the surface, shea doing everything he could to keep a minute was shot making, you know, a case in Wallace playing out of his mind, but they couldn't crack that code. And the reason they couldn't was because guys had killed in Johnson and Dylan Harper and Deanna Fox and Champeni made every shot they had to make with all of that pressure, like on the road with the trip to the finals at stake. Because when he was obviously hit himself, but it wasn't like he went crazy in that game. They don't get through that if those guys aren't making those shots. And so that was the first thing. And then obviously the chat thing, just this most head scratching, sitting there trying to figure it out. I've seen guys kind of shrink in those situations before, but to for a guy, this third team all league, to score with 10, 40 left in the first quarter and took one shot the rest of the game. I don't know that I've ever seen anything quite like that for a guy that's like on that level in the league currently. It was to your point about disperse role players. The thing that I wonder if in 15 years we'll remember that on two separate occasions, the thunder actually took the lead in the game. Because one was there up by four. I think 63, 59, one was right before half time. And normally when that happened, you feel like all right, the home team got over the hump. They got punched right out of the gate. Like they did every game they took the lead. And we won't remember it because the spurs erased it both times immediately. Like just immediate runs. It was so impressive. You're right. A lot of times that's when it goes from four to 10. Yeah, just like they take control of the game. Now it feels a little overwhelming for the road team, especially this young group. And they never let it get to that point. All right, spurs next. Game one tomorrow, you're going to be on the call. Yeah. Wembee will win the tip. So the spurs will have the ball. First thing you're going to be looking for, spurs offense versus Nick's defense. Is it going to be who's guarding Wembe Njama? Is it Kat? Is it Aninobi? And what would you do if you were in Mike Brown shoes? Aninobi as much as you possibly can. And I think try to prevent Handing him off as much as you can. Aninobi is the guy. For me, that's the physical profile type player you want on him. Laterally strong, but enough height to at least to like bother him a little bit, you know, as you're contesting. A little bit. But then the strength to push him out of the floor when he goes to set screen. I think that's a critical component to the series. I'll be looking at that immediately in the first quarter. Where's he setting him? When he sets screens and both feet are inside the three point line, and he's one stride to the rim, literally one. It's a completely different level of pressure on the defense and the points per possession. Show it. It's different than when he sets that screen at 30 feet. Aninobi's going to play a big part in that. So is the pressure on the ball, because those guards have to start a little further out for that screen to come further out. So that's for me. You asked right away, Spurs offense, Nick's defense, that's kind of the first thing. Like, how are the Spurs utilizing Wembee in this matchup? And where is he setting his screens to maximize his pressure on the defense? All right, put your coach hat on. If Aninobi's on Wembee, Nyanba, and whether he starts on him or not, we're going to see it a lot. Who's cat guarding? That probably-- that's a tough one because they've got shooters. You might-- this is where the Harrison Barnes-- This is where it gets flop out when they got Harrison Barnes out of the line, but changed everything because everybody else can either shoot it or put it on the deck. So that's a tough one for Karla and 3-10. I don't know who it's going to be. It could be Champeni. That feels a little like Chet guarded Champeni, but he moves around a lot. You've got to get back to him because he can-- and that guy probably more than anybody they have is capable of taking over a half, four, five, made [BLANK_AUDIO] in a short period of time if you're not getting back to him. So that's tough when he obviously can't go on castle. Even though you could kind of lay off him and dare him to shoot. He's getting downhill anyway if you're back to off of him. So it's not going to be him. Plus he's in too many ball screens. So it certainly can't be him. The air fox is not going to be him. It's tough. It's going to be tough. I think we'll see a little bit of everything. But all right, so then the nicks get the ball. They're on offense. First possession they have when the spurs are able to set their defense. Are you expecting right off the jump? Wombinyama and Josh Hart roaming around playing a one-man zone? And how do you expect the nicks to respond to that? Yeah, I think so. And Josh Hart knows-- and he obviously was dared to shoot in the last series and really made cash pay. But I mean, it was so absurd, like, the extent to which they didn't even try to get to him. He was taking shots. I wouldn't even qualify as practice shots. He could have slippers on. He had that much time to shoot the basketball. That's not going to be the case here, because they still have just a really good closeout team. So they're going to concede it. But they're also going to try to get there. And if it's Wemby, it could be one step from the block. And he's going to get in the air. And that's a much different shot for Josh Hart. He knows he's got to step up, he ready to shoot the ball. He's going to set a lot of ball screens. And then he can set it and slip out as Brunson comes off. And now maybe you've engaged Wemby in that ball screen. You're taking him with you. If that ball can get out of there and get reversed, you've now got Wemby lifted. You've got a further away from the action. You've got to now go win those two on ones and three on twos on the back side of that. And I think you're going to see Josh Hart doing a lot of that. See, it's interesting that you bring that up, because Hart set the-- in March, when the Knicks blew out the spurs in Madison Square Garden. Hart set the most ball screens. He's ever set in any game ever in his entire NBA career. And it was because of that. It was their way of saying, hey, Wemby, if you're going to guard Hart, but lay off of him, we're just going to bring Hart into the screening action. And a shooter is going to come around the corner. You're not going to be there whatever. And I feel like the spurs have gotten more and more daring with Wemby in that zone of like, OK, if you try to bring Josh Hart into the action, he's just going to wave, get a bite of Josh Hart, and stay parked down on the baseline and be like, oh, this McElbridge is over here. I'll be cool. And I just don't know, like, he's the first guy that I've ever seen where he's dictating the terms to the offense. They're trying to get him in the action in the action. He's just like, no, I'm cool. I can cover any amount of stuff. I don't know what you're supposed to do. It's tough, because the other thing is looking into Knicks and this historic run they've been on and look at the areas they're dominating. And number one of all monks all play out teams of points in the paint, 53 again. Number one of three point percentage, 40%. Number one of fast break points. Well, I look at the fast break points in the paint points particularly. That's tough. Sandwich on edge. How are you getting to 53 points in the paint and how are you getting to 18 and fast break opportunities? Now, this person will cough it up. But they recover as well as any team in the league and cutting that off. So that's like, in some ways, like, you're taking a chunk of the offense out in both of those areas. So where do you make that up? I think the three point volume goes up for the Knicks. And if they don't shoot, in not to shoot 40%, like they are now in the postseason. If that number drops to 29%, 31%. When the volume goes up as well, you don't have a chance. I think the volume goes up because it has to go up because of the way the spurs play defensively. Number one, they're just, they're initial defenders. Their outer shell is so good at keeping the ball in front. And then, of course, you've got Wembee back there. And the way the Knicks run a new offense, a lot of off-ball movement, and Brunson on the baseline, setting that screen and coming up to get the ball from Kat and all that, they're getting some of those cuts and slashes now. A lot of those are taken away against this team. That, to me, points directly to the three point shooting. And that means, heart and an OB, Brunson, when he gets into his step back and Kat. Kat's going to have, I think, to shoot the ball more in this series than he did in the last series. And they've got to shoot a respectable percentage from the three point line to have a chance. Because I think that's the shot. They know they can get. Give me a small, before we let you go. Give me a small X factor for both teams that you're going to be like, or it could be a guy off the bench. It could be a tactical wrinkle. It's just this any small thing that comes to mind that's like, this could actually be a little game within the game that swings part of the series. I'm going to put one of them. I'm going to put it on Mitchell Robinson. OK, so now he's got the pinky injury. Obviously, it's not going to affect the shooting. He's ball-handling. We don't have to worry about that, but is he in pain? Does it affect his ability? Grab the ball with two hands. Can he catch a lob? So we don't know that until he starts playing. You're talking about against this team. If you don't get your share of second chance opportunities, you're going to have a hard time. If you only get one shot per possession, he gives you-- I mean, we've seen it. He's flipped games in an eight-minute stretch because he gets against this team. Yeah, I think it, like, 10 against this team. He can do that. He can do that, and that's going to supplement through off and give him extra possessions against an elite defense. And not only that, just his presence in the paint against an attacking team, against Wembee-Sizing, against Castle Harper, all these guys. So I think Mitchell Robinson, for me, for the NYX Major X Factor. And then I think, for the Spurs, I'm going to go with Dylan Harper. I just think he clearly's not phased by any of this stuff. And he's got the physical makeup to play through. Any physicality, the shooting can be a little bit streaky. To what impact does he have in this series as a score? If he's a little bit more limited, he struggles a little bit. That's going to be a big bonus for the next. Because if he's also coming off to Bench and giving you those games, 12, 15, 18 points, if he has nights like that, it's tough to beat this team. So a couple of, on just riffing off that, I looked it before the Thunder series, Thunder Spurs. When it looked like the Thunder, we're going to be fully healthy with J. W. and J. Mitchell and all that, and, like, this is the most powerful offensive team the Spurs have faced. And I was wondering, and I was going to mention this in my preview and forgot, are we going to see more minutes of Harper, Castle, Wemba Nyama, and no Fox. Not like they're going to bench Fox, but Fox maybe goes down to 28 minutes because they just need their A plus defensive lineup out. And if you look at the numbers, when those three guys are on the floor together, Harper, Castle, Wemba Nyama, it's like, you can't even score on the Spurs. And Robinson, I said this on my preview pod last night, I think it's barely hyperbole and maybe not hyperbole at all to say his health could swing the entire NBA finals. I think he's that important specifically against this team because the more I've watched Wemba Nyama and the Spurs, and the more I've talked to people who are trying to build their teams with him in mind, I think a player like Mitchell Robinson as close as you can get is like a must to have against Wemba Nyama. You got to at least make him think, if I go up the block this shot and I don't get it, is there someone behind me who can punish me? And also, or catchlobs behind me. And like, you're not going to get all of that in one player all the time but you get that like Mitchell Robinson is the perfect kind of guy for that. - And the other thing, those are all great points why he's so important to other thing is he eats up fouls, meaning he protects cat, 'cause what are you gonna, are they gonna go with, let's say, when they go with hugged poor, I don't think they would trust him in this situation. You could play Anonobi at the five. - I think that's what they go to. - But they probably will if that's what they have to. That's why those 15 minutes, whatever it's gonna be for Mitchell Robinson is so important because he's absorbing minutes that Carl Anthony Towns can be on the bench and not picking up fouls, 'cause we know he's prone to that. So that's all those reasons you mentioned. I just look at him and it's gonna be fascinating to see when he checks in, what his impact and effectiveness is and if he looks pretty good in game one, I think we probably can expect that the entire series and that's a totally different look for the next. - Yeah, I picked nix and seven. Either way, obviously I went a long series just from entertainment perspective. I do think it's a weird thing. I do think that nix need to get one of the first two in San Antonio, even though you say, well, they have home court going back the other way. It all evens out. I just think it's so hard to win four out of five, even if you have home court after the first two games. I think everyone's gonna say they gotta get game one. I don't care which it is, but I do think if they go down 2-0, it's gonna be really tough for them. - You have two teams that right now at peak level on both ends of the floor. So the number of things that have to go right to win a game against either of these teams is a lot of things. If you go down 2-0, I agree with you. Then it just becomes math. Four out of five, including the last one on the road. If that's what it takes against the team that's at peak level, that's hard, man. They're deep, they're great defensively. They can be great offensively. So that's difficult, I agree. And I don't necessarily have people like, well, game one's everything. I'm like, I don't agree with that. Split, split is. One of these two, I mean, it's already nuts and bananas in Madison Square Garden, like the games we've called. And we called games in the last two series, you know, Philly and, in Clayton's Cleveland. One, one, it's gonna be. - In the garden? - Forgot about that. - Next Monday? That can you imagine, and now that fan base really sensing it. Maybe this is it, man. This is the year we got the split we wanted. So, split, I think very important to the nicks. I think we got a long series. I think we got great finishes in this series. And as a guy calling it, I hope so, because we didn't get much of that in the Eastern Conference finals. - No, we did not. We didn't get much of that in the game. - Game one, we got game one. - I mean, one, that's an epic one. - That was an epic one. - But not much in the Cleveland, not much in the Philly series, not much in the Atlanta series, right? 'Cause we got involved in that when it was like, it was 60 point lead, was the game we called. So we haven't had a lot of those compelling, three minutes to go coming out of that time out. Anybody can win this game moments. And I think we're gonna get several of them in this series. - Tim Legler, you're the best. Listen to him on the All City Puck as of that, Amaris. And on the call with Mike Green and some nonsense about him. The host, that's one low below me, Richard. Something I don't know what his name is. - I see some shiny down there. Is that the trophy or Richard? - I think it is a trophy. I don't know. They don't want to brought the trophy to me. I don't think that's fair. - I'll go through it. - I think every host, you get a piece of the trophy. - Right off their set. - Legs, thanks, man. I'll see you soon. - Of course. - You got it. All right, look who it is. Seven. times you got to hold this thing or a version of this thing. >> Right then, 94.95 Houston Rock is my favorite championship. >> That's the favorite one? >> Yeah. >> Why is that the favorite one? Robert Orey, by the way, as if he needed any introduction. Why is that your favorite one? >> Because this is a journey, man. You think about who we beat on that run. You know, Carmillain, John Stockton, then the next round, Charles Buckley, Kevin Johnson, the next round, right here. He gets the MVP, David Robinson, Dennis Robman, and that crew, and then we go on a sweet-shack in Penny. So that was a fun championship. So 95, I was a senior in high school. Die Hard NBA fan, though. And a couple of guys, we would just watch every game. And we were like, almost vicariously embarrassed for David Robinson because of what Hakeem did to him in that series. Were you all, did you all feel like you were part of that with him, like we're all going to show together who the real MVP of the league is? >> Yes, it was a fun series, man, because back then, the spurs would be just five times in the regular season. You know, you play out on his five times in the conference. And so, they pretty much owned us. And it's almost like, once they gave David the MVP trophy, Dream was locked in. And he was doing stuff. We hadn't seen all season. >> He was mean, man. >> They got to the point where you on the court go, "Oh, you know, and you're supposed to do that." "Player, you both get, oh, I see this all day." We're like, "Oh, get him dream, get him dream." So it was just a wonderful thing to watch. And also, at 95, that's when, you know, I kind of got my nickname. >> That was big, that's the birth of Big Shot Bob. >> Is it Bob or Rob? Where are we going? >> It started out as Bob. I like Bob because, you know, after my father, but my mom, here's a story behind that. And she just, like, I'm calling me Bob because of my dad. And she changed it to Rob. >> So, okay. >> Somewhere down the line. >> He got changed to Rob, because they heard the story. >> I mean, mom's generally should get the final call. >> I feel the best. That's the reason I went to Alabama and not Georgia Tech, because my mom, like, you're going to Alabama. So, my mom's the best. >> So, the nicks are back in the finals. Obviously, the last time they were there was 1999. But the one before that, the one they really had a chance in, you were there for the Houston Rockets in 1994. All-time epic series, Seven Games comes down to the Wire and Game 6 and Game 7, the whole thing. Do you remember, a lot of people with the nicks have told the story about the OJ game. What do you remember about the OJ game? The OJ game is game five, I believe. >> You know, it was like game three, I think. >> Game out, whatever it is. >> Yeah, one of the three or four, yeah. >> But were you also made aware at some point during the game, something is happening in the world? >> No, we were on plan and then, you know, back then, you just had a VCR and that's how you recorded the games. We saw it. So, when we came back into the locker room at halftime, we usually watched the game. We were like, "What the heck is this going on?" And someone said, "It was OJ." >> It was halftime, this is halftime. >> It was halftime. >> Yeah, and it was, so we didn't have to, we couldn't even watch any film the next day because it was all OJ. And it was just, that's the only time, we didn't pay attention to go, "We locked in there." We didn't care about OJ. We wanted to try to get our first championship as a team. >> So, I rewatched end of game six, next down by two. Stark's takes the last second three, that Hakeem just barely gets a piece of it. I rewatched, I was like, "Let me see where Robert is." On display, you're guarding Charles Oakley, who's the imbalanced passer. But can you close your eyes and see that? And was there a moment where you were like, "Oh God, this is, if this goes in, it's actually over." >> Yeah, I did, I was watching that. And I was like, "Dream's not gonna get there." And then he'd go, "Go get your arms and got there." And you'd think about how hot Stark was that game. So if Dream doesn't block that, I think Stark makes that because he was shooting, he was shooting a really good that game. And I remember I was on the guard and I was like, "No!" 'Cause he came open, and I'm, "Thank you, Dream." So that's all I had to say, "Yeah." >> Also on that team, Mario Ellie, what a couple of famous incidents involving Mario Ellie are part of your career. That's the, you beat the sons in that playoff run. And that's the game, that's a series where Danny Ange frustrated at the end of the one of the games, pegs Mario Ellie in the head. >> Close range. >> Close, no, I mean, I watched it again to remind myself, like, "Damn, that would have taken me out." >> Yeah, and you got to think about it. People would get Danny Ange was better at baseball. >> Yes. >> And so he was a pitcher and so he did do that, it infuriated us. We were pissed by that, yeah. >> No, flash forward, three years. You're a member of the Phoenix Sons. And Danny Ange is one of the coaches. >> Yeah, what happened? >> You wrote that story? >> Yeah. >> We was playing this, we're here and I really started, but in his was we was playing the Bulls. And I think the Bulls beat us by like 20, 30 points. And I was saying that, you know, we went to practice and he was like, "Well, our office is this, our office is that." I was like, "Our defense sucks, man." And Danny had the nerve to stand up like, "You don't worst defensive play on the team." I'm like, "Hold on, that's Wesley's person. There's Danny Manning." And you call me the worst defensive play on the team. >> Just something wrong with you from that moment on, we hated each other, even more. >> Has it thawed? >> Has what? >> Has it thawed? >> No, I'm saying it, has what? >> No, I mean that joke, no, no, has not, you know. The funny thing about it is when he traded me, he says, "I probably just want you to know the championship when he traded me." So he traded me to the Lakers and that. But I have no ill will, you know, I really, really, if I could go back in time, time, I would handle that situation way better, you know, because I was at a time, my daughter was sick in the hospital. I just came from a team where the coach was work hard and practiced a team where he was like on a country, you know, country club atmosphere. So it was just a lot of things going on, we mentally and physically that, it was just a frustrating time. And am I going to apologize for it? Nope, because it's Danny Ains. Anybody else, I want to apologize. >> So on the '93, '94 Rockets, just trivia purposes, Chris Gent, now an assistant coach with the Nix. And on the 1997 Sons, 'cause he got traded from the Rockets to the Sons with you, Mark Bryan, who was going to stand up for you in the locker room as if there was ever, like Joe Klein wanted to fight you in the day after you threw the towel at Danny Ains. Also an assistant coach with the Nix. There's like a lot of Nix robertory connections going on here. >> Yeah, you know, and we swept the head coach with a Nix and we was with Spurs. There's a lot of connections going on. But I think Mark Bryan is my guy, you know, he's been my guy since he got there. And, you know, I kind of got mad at Chris Gent. I love him to death. I got mad, I mean, he's sarcastically. We got the championship video. And he's all up in the video more than me. He's not only been here three weeks. I've already been in championship. Baby, I'm like, why is he in the video and not me? But Chris Gent was like, I loved him. I really was in the mirror. And he was like, oh, I was state the way he played defense. And so I'm a big Chris Gent for you. >> All right, so you met you get traded to the Lakers. And then you three Pete, when in that three year run, four years total with the Lakers, I feel like, right? >> My career is seven years. >> With the, when in that run, the heart of it though, the championships and the near championships. When do you start worrying about like, this shackle be thing doesn't, doesn't seem like it's gone. Like, it doesn't seem like they're getting along very well. >> Well, you know, for me, if you go back and look at the people you have on your team, you keep players at bay. You think about B-shar hard, myself, you know, Rick Fox fish. And John said, we, it was no riff during the locker room. There was no riff in practice. You know, the sometime that guys getting fights, you know, you, I'm sure you heard about guys fighting in practice. It was no riff, and then all of a sudden, you know, we're gone. The guys who were like the, the glue of the team are gone. And then that's when they really, you know, explode it. And you think about, you know, all the stuff that happened with Kobe, all the stuff that happened with Shaq. And the next day, and then make it to the finals, they get beat up by the pistons. And so it goes to show you that guys that are in your locker room are so important if they're not the stars, because they are the voice. Everybody thinks it's the coaches. The coaches aren't the voice. It's those veteran players who know how to hold guys together, hold them accountable. And I think that was a key because we were always talking to Shaq. Shaq and I sought free those every, at the every practice. I had a voice. We could talk to him like, man, it's not about you and Kobe. It's about us. And so with those voices gone, you see what happens. So you signed with San Antonio after that is a free agent. But were you, were you like, did you want to go back to the Lakers where you mad that the Lakers weren't bringing you back? I was actually mad, you know, I was actually mad. I didn't talk to Jerry Bus for like five years. And I thought what the way they handle it was unfair to me for a person anytime you want someone to do something. It was me coming out, you know, okay, I do this, I do this. And then I was sitting, I say, okay, I know you won't come along so bad that you're not going to bring me back. Allow me to go early. Let me go early so I can find a home and they didn't do that. And so luckily someone fell out of the rotation for the Spurs. And I saw, people don't know, I saw the one you did with the Spurs. Yeah, I looked it up today. And I didn't have a good year because people understand when you play for pop he has a million plays. So it takes you a little bit to understand the system. Then the next year I saw another one you did for league mental. We won it in 2005 and any time for three years. And I, you know, and after 2005 Mark Cuban offered me way more money to come play for the Mavericks. But I said, no, I like it here in San Antonio. And plus I can get on this freeway and go see my daughter who's in and out of the hospital when I need to be. So it was about, you know, being comfortable for me and enjoying the team. And I really enjoy playing for pop because I like the culture. I like the structure. I like how you go to practice. You practice hard. It was no country club stuff. A lot of these teams don't practice hard. I practice all nowadays. But I really enjoy the environment here. So a big shot, Bob. If I say that to people, they're going to think of the Lakers King shot, the one that Vlade tips right back out to you. And you make it. I don't think enough love gets placed on two, two finals, Detroit, San Antonio. You're down by two on the road. Like the whole finals is in the balance. You're inbounding the ball. 5 seconds left for something like that. No, 10 seconds left. Then you make the shot with 5 seconds left. Rashid Wallace is on you. But he decides I'm not guarding the inbounder. So you inbound it. Monu passes it right back to you. And you make a three to put the spurs ahead by one. Were you like holding? Holy shit, he's not guarding me, get the ball right back to me. Like, did you make eye contact with Manu? Were you surprised that she was making that decision? - I was shocked, 'cause when I threw the ball, it was like, you know what I'm thinking about people laughing? And they talk about how much I hate bounce passes. I hate 'em because they're slow, but that's the only thing I could get to Manu because the play was from Manu. And so we received kind of like, okay, I'll go trap. And I was like, no, he didn't just leave me open, because to me back to your point, like nobody talks about that. And what I did in the second half of that game, the shots I made-- - We're gonna get to that in a second. - And so, but it was just for me. I just felt like incredible that he, I was like, okay, you leaving me. I've never been this hot in my life. You know, so he was-- - Did you think it was going in? - Oh, it was going in. Because when I watched it today, it looks long. When it's in the air, it looks like it might be long and then it hits back rim and in. So you knew you're like, it feel like it felt good. It felt great. And that's the thing for me. I've always known that my shots are gonna go in. Maybe like one out of maybe like 20, I might not. No, I thought, oh, it's going in, it doesn't go in. But when my shot is on, I know it is in or not. - What I had forgotten in that game was right before that. This is like one of the greatest forgotten dunks in the history of the NBA. They kick it to you on the right wing. I can't remember what score it was. - It was just going through a bad pass. - Whatever. Sheet is not guarding you. He's rotated and you have a clear land in the basket. And you go, and like people, I think people think you have a big shot guy great all around player, defense, rebounding, passing all that. High flying. I mean, you could dunk. You are a dunker coming out of Alabama. But this is like an in game masterpiece. You drive in and throw this lefty, like lefty arm extended over Richard Hamilton who tries to draw a charge on you. And one, and you missed a free throw, which we don't, your shoulder was hurt. - I was shoulder was hurt. - That shot wasn't so much pain. - You missed it short. But that dunk, is it one of those moments where you go up like, I guess I got to try to dunk this or in mid area, like holy shit, I might dunk this. It's an amazing dunk. - It's a holy shit moment because you try that dunk and you know, all the time. And it's a lot easier when you like, fresh. And you can get up and like, this was like fourth quarter. You know, and I'm like tired. Been playing minutes, playing against a tough, you know, Detroit prison. So when I took off, I was like, of course, I think I can't, oh, I'm about, oh, I think. But if you look, I barely got it over. It wasn't one of those. It was just, so it was a pretty good dunk anyhow. And the thing about Rip always, we've been to a lot of events together. He always says, man, you're the only guy who's ever dunked on any NBA. I said, yeah, you should have moved out the way. (laughing) - All right, seven time champion. There's a whole groundswell of like, we gotta get Robert Ori in the Hall of Fame. Make him the first quote unquote role player in the modern NBA to get in the Hall of Fame. Is that something you want? Have you been, have you advocated for that? Do you feel like you deserve it? - I've never been a self-promoter. I just feel like I just go out and do my thing and I let people do what they need, do it for me. Do I feel like I should be in the Hall of Fame? I said, yes, because what are you gonna say? No. - No, no, no. - I trust me, I'm very honest. And do you think about it? People look at Hall of Fame and look at NBA. It's not NBA Hall of Fame. It's a basketball Hall of Fame. It's what I did in high schools, what I didn't college. It's everything that you've done. And people don't understand like, in order to be as successful as I was, you don't understand how much I had to sacrifice in order to be successful. You look at my first, my couple of years in the NBA, I had a plays when I was scoring. I was doing this. I shouldn't have made all defense a team, but I didn't. - You and Kacel coming in together in the same drive-claps was like, whoa, these rookies are ready to play. - And that's the whole thing there. That's the one thing I regret that I never made all defense a team. You think about it. - That's crazy. - First player, he's ever to do 100 blocks, 100 steals, 100 3s in a game. - It's crazy. - You know, and in so many accomplishments that I've done and nobody has ever done. You know, so many records I have. And, but it gets kind of squashed because I think they look at who I played with Dream and Cloud, Shaq and Kobe, Tim Mono and Tony. They always say, oh, he rolled their coach tails. This is, if one for me, it'd probably like five championships that some of those guys wouldn't have won. - I forgot about this. We are in San Antonio. Have you and Steve Nash ever talked about the hip-check? - From 2007. - Steve, people don't understand, Steve Nash is my boy. Steve Nash was my rookie when I was in Phoenix. He and I used to hang together. - All the time. And, you know, if you don't know what I'm talking about, just do Robert Dory, hip-check. It'll come up 2007 Western Conference Finals, two great, great teams, two, two. People got off the bench and were suspended. But have you talked to him about this? - We talk about it all the time. I tell him, I said, man, you flopped on that. He's like, 'cause if you look, you know, my arm never went out. I was watching the image. - That's why it's called a hip-check. But no, here's the thing is, it shouldn't, I shouldn't have been suspended for two games. Every time I see the guy at the time of suspended, I want to push him down, a flight of stairs. That cost me $60,000. And so I'm like, but no, it was just should've been a hard file. You know, we forget. - Since he's a little guy, he's a MVP. They want to suspend me for a day. - He's got the bandage on his nose already. - But that wasn't for me, everybody. - No, no, no, wasn't for me, he's only got it on. - That was from Tony Parker. - Yeah. But right after the game, they interview. I don't know, maybe it was short. I don't remember what it was, but you give an interview with, you just say like, hey, I was trying to draw a charge and I got there late. That's a good explanation. I got to say that's a good alibi. - I was trying to get over there. And I was like, I'm not going to make it. Like I said, I'm a realist, so I said, okay. One of us got to take this punishment. So I'm like, but I tell him, I am a wall. Steve Nash was a tennis ball. Of course, he's going to bounce off a wall. So it just looked bad in the way it was. All right. Last question, because you got to keep making the rounds. - You make a stop. I'm not going home after this. - Okay, well that's great. - I'm not going home, I didn't. - I heard you down there on the road trip and show with those guys. I heard a prediction come. I couldn't hear what it was, but it was six. I heard somebody in six. So what was six? - Spurs and six. - I think it's spurs and six. I think if you look at the way the spurs played, they match up and really will with the nicks. But the nicks don't match up that great with the spurs. And for me, I think when you watch a lot of these series, Brunson is a liability on the defensive end. There's no liability on the defensive end for the spurs. Think about who, Champigny? - Close to Singh is Fox probably. And if you especially if the ankle sprints by there. I think Brunson will go at Fox a little bit in this game. - But those guys aren't in the most important player, but I think overall, Towns and how he defends Wimby, depending on the Mitchell plays. But I think that's the most important thing, but I still think the spurs in six. - Scary man, if Wimby is winning titles this soon in his career, it's all scary. - Yeah, it's scary, but you know what though? Just like they were mad at OKC. You didn't even know of OKC. - No, come back, next you mad at the OKC. He's gonna come back mad. All right, Robert or I truly a pleasure. And like seriously, I say this ends the end. One of my favorite players ever to watch. 'Cause I always gravitated to the guys who did the subtle things and lifted everyone around them. And you were like the archetype of that guy. Not just three in D. It was three in D and a little bit of everything. Good pass, sir, good everything. So it's great saving. - Robert or everybody, thank you, sir. - Oh, and Larry O'Brien, nice to see you. Back at the NBA Finals, we're gonna talk about the actual NBA Finals, Ian Begley from SNY, home of the 26 and 34 New York Mets, baby. Not in last, we went being last again, we got out of last briefly. Ian, nice to see you. - Always nice to see you, Zach. Good to do this in person. - It's nice, right? Never has, maybe not never. Seldom has so much attention and scrutiny been paid to how a player shakes hands, high fives, shoots free throws. What's he wearing on his hand is Mitchell Robinson today. The Knicks were coy about his status for game one. No one has really reported how he hurt his pinky finger slash fifth metacarpal, whatever we're talking about it. What do we expect for game one? Looks like he's gonna play, he looked like he was doing most everything. - Yeah, he didn't seem limited. I think he's gonna play. He wants to play, the Knicks are hopeful that he can play. I don't know if he's been fully cleared by the Knick Medical Staff, that's the last hurdle because he was doing individual stuff and practices prior to this one. And Mike Brown had said he hadn't been cleared for the whole thing yet. So we wait on that, but I'm assuming he's going to play. Obviously he'll be limited though, right? People kind of try to downplay the significance of this injury, but he's got to rebound the basketball. You need to grab it with both hands. You've got to finish all the yubes. And also, when he's on the floor, Victor Rambinyama, I think is gonna be defending him. So his role in this series is a significant one. - Yeah, it's gonna be really interesting. I think they need him to be 80% productivity wise and whatever, like no one knows what his pain tolerance is gonna be, but I think they need him to have a good series in order to win. And I saw Sean's reported today that I don't know if you've reported this, forgive me if you have, that it was something at his house with like an injury occurred at his home. I will say there doesn't seem to be a lot of anger or consternation from the next people. There was initial people went through to the worst possible candidates there. I was like, did he punch a wall? Was it something stupid? They don't seem to be acting like it was something like that. - I mean, it's a boxer's fracture. - Yes. - I mean, take that what you will. But yeah, it was not in a game. It was not in practice. Mike Brown said that publicly, which surprised me. And I think when this happens, everyone's kind of caught off guard. I think in that locker room, there was kind of some people just, I'm not confused but concerned and just wondering why now. - Why now? - But maybe after you hear the story, maybe there's an explanation there. I mean, there's a million rumors kind of floating around about what happened, what didn't happen. I can't report anything on that, but yeah, did not happen on the job. - What is your life like right now? Is it like you and I are both friends with a lot of nixfans. We live amongst a lot of nixfans, but you can cover the nicks. Is your life just a nonstop parade of everyone that you know asking you? Are they going to win? Are they going to do this? Can you get me tickets? Like, what are some of the questions you're getting above? Yes, all the above. And I love all my friends. But the worst part is like when there's a big news event, and I'm scrambling, trying to figure out whatever's going on, and I'm getting texts from like a guy I've been talking to in three years, and he wants like the low down on what's happening. I'm like, man, I last saw you at my wedding. Like, what's happening here? Why are you reaching out to me? But no, it's all, I mean, this is an exciting time for obviously the franchise, anybody covering the team. That's a good group. So what can I really complain about at the end of the day? So I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit. Yeah. And it's nothing bad. But you think about the roads not taken for this group in the last four or five years. And I remember I had you on my podcast when I was at ESPN. We were both, you were not at ESPN. I don't know. We were both at ESPN at some point. But when the Donovan Mitchell non-trade happened. Yeah. There was this. You were at the forefront of reporting. What was offered? What was offered? When? And it was like this? Would they put a third pick in? But they'd only put a third pick in if RJ Barra was not in the deal. And it was like, I love mutations. Yeah. And I looked back at your reporting and some other reporting. I'm like, man, what happened here? And like, did they really want Donovan Mitchell? And then they faced him in the last round. So when you think back to that, like, how close were they really? And because if they do that trade, then they obviously don't have some of the assets. They then trade for bridges and other things don't happen. What do you remember from that? Because they faced off. And I felt like that didn't get enough kind of attention as a storyline. Right. And I just remember even people around Mitchell in the weeks leading up to it saying, this is going to get done. I mean, I think it's going to get done. It should get done. We expect it to get done. And I think Donovan Mitchell has gone on the record saying he thought he was going to be a Nick. So I don't know if it was for lack of interest, but it was Leon Rose at the end of the day because it's his decision deciding, I'm not going to pay X for Donovan Mitchell. And, you know, you noted the OG and an OB trade comes after that. And then obviously the bridges trade and the towns trade. And so there are so many things that did happen that may have never happened if you pulled the trigger. And it was RJ Barrett was a big part of it. Remember they extended Barrett and then kind of ended any legitimate trade talks. And so yeah, the Cascade from there. And you could also talk about, look, maybe the picks are still there for them to go after Yannis last summer in a serious way. So roads not traveled. Leon Rose has made by and large the right decisions here. Even going back to the Josh Hart trade. Like one of the most underrated, including by me, I would say, I always avoid love Josh Hart. But those kind of trades, they just, they become footnotes at the trade deadline because there's so much huge stuff that happens. And you're like, that first for Josh Hart seems fine, whatever. Like just such a great trade. Yeah, it's impacted the franchise. I would put him right under Jalen Brunson as far as reasons this thing has turned around the way it has. And you know him because you're around and you're a fan, you don't, you can't appreciate him by just looking at a box where you can't. You've got to watch every play and then the intricacies of his game and he calls himself a servant, which I think is a perfect descriptor because he just wants to make the four guys on the floor with him better make it easier for them. I think that's important. It's not even just easier. I think people used to say this totally different player to me about Ricky Rubio of a guy who's just fun to play with. Like forget that Josh Hart is selfless and plays hard and makes the extra pass and does the dirty work and stuff like that. It just looks like it'd be a lot of fun to play with him. He wants to play fast. He wants to pass. He's kind of adventurous like in a daring way that would be fun to play with and every team kind of needs a little bit of that. But you mentioned Yannis and one of the things I've been wondering like obviously we haven't played the final jay we're sitting here before game one. It could be four ospers and they win by 20 every game. I picked nicks and seven. It could be a close series, whatever. There was this notion of James Dolan, they down the gauntlet. This team has to get to the finals or disappointment. And boy, if they don't, all these changes could take place. Is this team done enough that like those doors should pretty much be closed? It's like enough with the Yannis talk, enough with this stuff. Like is this team going to look like this basically? I would think so, but you know the scenario that you mentioned, if you're not competitive in four games, I think those questions remain. I think at this point Mike Brown is back. I think you can say that in maybe not a sharpie, maybe an erasable marker, but it seems like he'll be back at this point. I would hope so. Right. But to your point, like, if it doesn't go well at all, I don't think that's going to happen. I would be very surprised at this sort of non competitive series. So I think it's going to be a great series. And I think yeah, everybody will be back. No major changes. You got to figure out what to do with Mitchell Robinson, figure out what to do with Miles McBride extension, but it should be the same cast back next season. Could this have happened with tips? I asked Nick people that man for the last few days. The one answer that I got, which I found interesting was that they said they didn't think so only because of the idea that these guys are very loose and tibs right or wrong. Like the further you went, the more intense he got and that kind of rubbed off on a room. And you saw them in practice. These guys are light right now. And so I don't want to disperse Tom Thibault at all. Great job. Great job. If you want to win games, he's a great coach tire. Foundational peace. But you look at the big decision they made around this time last year. We all had questions about it. And it's worked out in a way that they had hoped it would. It absolutely has. As you mentioned, I'm looking loose and stuff. Cat talked a little bit of media availability today about the aftermath of game three in Atlanta. And he made comments to the effect. I believe I don't know if you were in the room when he was talking today about, you know, we all had to look ourselves in the mirror, not only about like how we're playing and what we need to do to sacrifice for the team, but like how many of us are going to be nicks next year if we don't pull out of this. And then they have lost the game ever since then. So I wonder what you have observed or can tell me about like the aftermath that moment of we're down to one to a team we should beat. Is this like how do we turn this around and like obviously something changed? Sure. And so part of it was I think the coach's message was you guys are letting your foot off the gas here. This is not the time to do that. There was the offensive change with Carl Towns. I think part of it though was a mentality shift and Towns maybe was getting at that a little bit. I think I talked to Miles McBride and Philadelphia after they swept. And he said after Miles McBride hit like 19 three times crazy. Yes, yes. And so he said that we knew we were a good team, but we were kind of waiting for the opponent to give us the game. And that was the issue. And after that game three they talked and it switched from that to we know we're a good team. We have to go out and take the game. We can't just wait for somebody to make mistakes. I think that's maybe it sounds like a cliche, but it is kind of what you've seen from them during this winning streak. They've been I think they've been favorites every round so far in the playoffs. Certainly I picked him ever around. I think they've been favorites every round. Have they talked about or thought about being underdogs for the first time in the playoffs at all in their media recently? I haven't been in there when someone has been asked that question or answered it. But I think that regardless of of whatever the label is it starts with Jalen Brunson like he's not going to concern himself with what I think what you think what Vegas thinks. These guys are locked in at such a high level on the daily details of what they need to do on the floor even during these breaks. It just seems like the outside noise it's all around them but they're not hearing it and that starts with Brunson. You like many others have lived through a lot of tumultuous times in Nickland and as they have risen to this point this year a lot of us have gone back and just to put in perspective how far they fell and how far they have come sort of highlighted some of the low lights I guess of the last 20 years. We've talked earlier today about a couple of maybe the forgotten low lights that you might want to highlight. I give you the floor. Sure so I mean I would go Derek Fisher the fist fight with Matt Barnes. It's a good one. Him missing a practice all the way across the country. While he was the head coach of the team not a player. Yeah and then a later iteration of the head coach Kurt Rambus who did a solid job and I think he believed that he was going to maybe get the job and Phil Jackson went a different way but I remember there was a day where the daily news wrote a story about his Twitter account liking a not safe for work tweet. I had totally forgotten about this turned into a whole story. He was asked about it. The Nick's put out a statement saying you know we think Kirk got hacked and we're actively working with Twitter on an investigate. It was the most absurd thing so that you could point to three four five of those and it was really there were the density of those ridiculous stories. You almost you just smacked your forehead but now Leon Rose here we are several years into his presidency there's a competence and that that clowns the circus stuff the Bafunari it's not there anymore and part of me wonders Zach and I'm curious to hear what you think Leon Rose had a front row seat to this for you know 20 years as an agent he always had a client in New York he was always you know doing his job which meant you know talking to the front office trying to figure out what was going on. I just wonder if that experience seeing all the lows and the crazy stuff if that informed the way he goes about his job as team president. How could it not right and how could it not and I'd complete there's so many things that you just forget about happening and that was one of them well did you do make predictions or no I don't think you do right I'm like a prediction I can't say nixon seven because the way San Antonio played in Oklahoma City in a game seven for them to have a game seven at home I just think they would handle the next so I would go nixon six nixon six wow I'll tell you this I already told my wife if the next win in game six I don't think I'm coming home like I don't think I'm gonna be able to make it home I don't I think you just need to plan family activities without me get the 48 already yeah I think it's gonna be a long series I picked nixon seven I think Robinson is a huge X factor but I really think they can do it their underdogs and they deserve to be underdogs the spurs are that good and they have the best player in the world probably in the best player in the series I think the nixon stumbled on not stumbled I think they have found some magic and some alchemy that is real and like I think they can actually do it so we'll see Ian Begley Victor Weminyama that's where yeah and how how who guards who and how that works and who breaks first Ian Begley will be here to chronicle all of it for us and why and it's a pleasure seeing you bud always a pleasure on the block absolutely careful on the Twitter accounts careful on those Twitter streams all right last but definitely not least from podcast row this year's winner of the Twymand Stokes Award for teammate of the year in the NBA I think 18 year veteran 18 years yeah DeAndre Jordan that is a long time yeah long time long time a lot of a lot of ice baths and stretches and second round pick yeah fell out of the first round college coach I was rereading some stuff he didn't he didn't like you know he didn't have the most ringing endorsement of you and here you are 18 years later so I appreciate that thank you so you are at the finals we are at the finals and I went back and I had to you know like I think of you I think of Lob City and some of the other stuff and the kidnapping which we'll get to in Dallas but you then eventually signed with Dallas as a free agent and rookie Jalen Brunson is on that team so you're kind of attached to this series in a couple of different ways but you're on that team for most of the season before you get traded to the next yeah but did you get to know Jalen at all and could you tell what was there yeah I mean Jalen was always super talented you know he just was playing with and sometimes behind Luca you know and that's that's all it was and I Jenner's obviously was a great college player he's a great pro he's an all-star and I just think sometimes it's just situations that can help blossom a player and he's walked into a great one in New York then you get traded from Dallas to the next as part of the Poorzinga Strait which is like a I live in New York at the time that was like an explosive moment in New York people were like really mad about Poorzinga and what are they doing but you come to New York and on that team is Mitchell Robinson is a rookie year what do you remember about him I mean Mitch was just so raw you know but he obviously had the tools to be a great shot blocker a great defender a great rebounder and I think that he's kind of stepping to their role and you know he started some points of his career and coming off the bench now and I think that he has really just been a star in whatever they're asking him to do and I think that he's gonna be huge in the series he's a big X factor today in this series they really need his offensive rebounding behind Victor but did you get it I mean you're only there briefly did you get a chance to like because he's like broadly similar to you as a player did you get a chance to talk to him about like we work together a lot well because he also as a young player was not shy about like hey I can shoot three's I can take people off the bounds and you went through a little bit of like I want to score more did you talk to him about that we talked about that and when I got there I had already done a lot of the individual accolades throughout my career and I thought fears did a really great job of you know kind of letting me take him under my wing a little bit and Mitch was super receptive he he embraced that he wanted that criticism he wanted to get better and we worked together a ton and he saw what I had done in the prime of my career and he was okay well I want to be able to do that and I thought that it was great to have somebody like that somebody to I saw myself in them a little bit as a younger player embrace that and I'm happy whenever I get to see him succeed out there did you get to talk to him today at all when they have not yet so when you're in New York after being traded there your free agency is coming up obviously there are a couple other high profile free agents that were coming up and there were a lot of like rumblings of like oh DeAndre is gonna orchestrate all of them to come to the next was that ever really a thing and you all go to the net side obviously after that yeah it was a thing for a bit because you know my mind I was like I'm already here yeah and then like you know they have some pieces and they want to do some great things and obviously you know we ended up going to Brooklyn and that was a great experiment it was fun it was fun for me to be able to play with my friends and those guys on Brooklyn were amazing and even the young players that they had were great so I think that it was a cool time to where like I got to be able to choose where I was going and kind of stick there for a little bit and play with some guys who I consider my friends so I thought that that was a fun time it didn't ultimately like help us win a championship but I it was a great experience in learning curve for me well and also like so many crazy things went wrong yeah like a global pandemic yeah occurred all the injuries in 2021 where there's the foot on the toe on the line shot like there's a lot of universes in which that actually clicks right with before hardening with hard and yeah it's kind of a team that is not derided but like oh what if they barely played together but there's like when it was rolling it was great it was a little bit scary yeah for sure I mean like to see like three Hall of Fame offensive juggernauts and playmakers on the floor I tell people all the time guys would either get their work in early pre-practice or very quickly right after practice because they would play once after so everybody wanted to kind of watch those guys playing it's like if you're a basketball fan if you love the game and competition you want to see these guys play against each other now it was that was cool for me to be able to you know step out of a role and start to transition into a new one so I really enjoy my time there and and playing with those guys so I've talked to Blake Griffin about this I've talked to Chris Paul about it I've talked to dog ribbers about it I've not talked to you about it and you're the centerpiece of the story I need to know your perspective of the famous DeAndre Dandre Jordan kidnapping of Dallas free agency well yeah I mean like according to everybody online like I kidnap in my own home in your own home yeah so that's great home mapping I don't know yeah yeah so it was it was I didn't realize what was going on on social media until post the all-time greatest day of every yeah I mean like everybody was involved I thought that there was crazy and then it even came out that mark was driving around Houston looking for my house or some craziness like that and I just it's crazy what people will believe and what people will say online so I think I learned a lot about social media at that point but ultimately you know I appreciate a Dallas in that time I you know I know that there were some hard feelings at a time with that but at the end of the day you know I I didn't want to leave a certain job and take another job that's all that happened here a young guy yeah faced with a tough decision yeah absolutely and I think at that point it was me seeing all the heartbreaking defeats and injuries and bad luck that we had with the Clippers and I kind of was like well maybe this is a time for me to go off and excel as an individual and do these different things but you know truly my heart really wasn't in it but I love everything that Dallas did so that's why eventually yeah that's why when I got the call that they were interested in the free agency I'm like this is a joke there's no way that this is again yeah that I'm like they're gonna ring on the deal or something's gonna happen but you know I ended up getting traded in the middle of the season but I enjoyed my time now I'm a Cowboys fan anyway so like I got to experience that first hand so it was it was fun and nice little time in my the weird part of my career so the thing I don't want to do with you is go rehash all the Clippers things because there was so many things that happened with the Clippers and they've all been rehashed heartbreaking defeats all of that I think this this current leg of your career we'll call it has been so much fun to watch because you come in as this young guy who you know wants to prove himself and then the you know rises to become an all NBA player and then all star in all this and then you move around a little bit and very easily your career could have petered out by now and instead you become this like beloved I mean legitimately beloved mentor teammate I think it's an awesome story and and I I never want people to forget that in game five of the nuggets heat finals you got in that game a championship like like people talk about staying ready yeah not everyone in your role actually everyone that lasts as long as you are and is in your role stays ready enough to play in a championship clinching game in real minutes absolutely when they called your number in that game when Michael McCollard your number had he already told you like hey we might need you in this game and were you like yeah hell yeah I'm ready yeah I think you know go like even now and back then I I prepare every game like I'm gonna play like I'm gonna play 30 minutes like that's my pregame routine where there's my nap how I prepare I'm drenched in lay up line so I'm going into every game like I'm gonna play and you know during that playover and I played against Minnesota didn't play against the Lakers and you know it you kind of it kind of changes up a little bit so anytime you have to be ready and people talk about staying ready but it's that's a real thing Nicole wasn't foul trouble Mo looked down at me and he said did you let's go and I didn't think about oh well this is the championship I'm like this is the opportunity that I've won it you know whether it's two minutes or 12 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever it is I'm going to go out there and play as hard as I can and trying to make some winning plays. And ultimately I did that we won a championship and I just kind of embraced that role to whatever it was. I wanted to be able to compete and help the team out. I don't remember what the plus minus was in those minutes, but I think it was good. And I remember doing a podcast on the floor after that game. Brian Winors and I were both the DSP and we would do one after every game of the finals. And I said like I just want to take a pause for a second and point out, Deandre Jordan went from not playing at all to getting throwing into a stressful finals game and like held up. I think that was like super cool. And I think the time and stokes thing are, would you ever imagined winning an award like that and like, where does it rank in terms of your career? It was just announced what last week, too. Like in your career kind of achievements. Well, I mean, I think it's cool. I think it's a, it's super humbling for one. I feel like I've always been a pretty good teammate. It took people 18 years to realize it. I'm joking, but it's cool because it shows like how somebody's able to adapt when it comes to different, you know, phases of their career. And for me, I think once I got to Denver, I kind of embraced that. I may play some nights, I may play, I may not play. And I was okay with that. As long as I was still able to contribute somehow, whether it's on the floor off the court. And then now I'm, you know, pouring back into the next generation. Like guys do for me. And I think that that is the least I can do is like help the next generation. So our game continues to evolve and the players get better. And that helps the league continue to get better. If you made a pick in this series yet. I have not, I'm trying not to. I just, I want to, I want it to go seven. You want it to be long. I want it to be, yeah. Without picking a team, do you think it will be long? Yeah, I do. Okay. Because I think, well, the spurs are young, hungry. They have a lot of talent. And obviously they have, you know, the unanimous defensive player to you. But I also think that the nicks have been playing better basketball than anybody in these playoffs. So, and they, they're super hungry as well. You know, they could have made it to the finals last year if it wasn't for maybe game one of the Eastern Congress finals. But these guys have been in the playoffs for a while. They feel like it's their time. So I'm excited to see what happens. Craziest game I've ever attended. Game one of the Eastern Congress last year. Yeah, you played some crazy games with the Clippers. Yeah. I wasn't at most of them, but that one will always stand out to me. Yeah. I would remember I was at that game. Yeah, that was, that was a crazy game. All right. Last thing. We have a score to settle. I'm not sure you realize this. You have blocked me on Twitter. I did. For 10 years. I did. And you never unblocked me. Really? And I think I know why. Would you say, did you say something bad about me? I don't even think it was bad. Okay. It's certainly not positive. Okay. But I don't think it was bad. 10 years ago. Oh, yeah, yeah. I was, yeah. This was for sure. So I think we need to have a ceremonial not live, but an unblocking. But I think what got back to me, and you, this is now your, what's the problem? Because whatever it is, it wasn't for me. So maybe that's what got back to me was he or somebody around him. Maybe mad that you kind of poked fun at DeAndre's tendency to use my words to steal defensive rebounds from his teammates. Because there was one, there was one in particular where you damn near decapitated poor J.J. Reddick, who was just right under the ball about to get a defensive rebounds. You're like, no, no, I'm the big man. I'm just my rebound. I'm sure that that's what happened. And I think either you didn't like it or someone didn't like it. So I just, I got to speak my truth. I thought you were a big guy. You were getting your rebounds. And I thought you were going to kill J.J. Reddick in the pursuit of the rebound that he was going to get. And I think I've been blocked ever since. And I checked this morning. I still can't see D.I. Jones tweets. I don't do my tweets. But I will say, at that point in my career, J.J.'s little ass needs to get out of the way. Like every year, at that point in my career, I'm like every rebound that comes up, whether it's offensive, defensive, it belongs to me. And I feel like that just kind of like turned a switch. So everything that came off the glass. I guess it's got to be all or nothing, right? You can't modulate that. Yeah, and I'm like, hey, if I get the rebound, I'll kick it up to you guys. You guys go score. But like anything that comes off is mine. It might have been that it might have been like if when you play dropback defense, any big man, please drop back defense. If you're not like completely into it or if it's a bad matchup, that can look like you're not doing anything. Like you're not today, but really you're just executing the scheme. Yeah. And I think also back earlier in my career, I may not have understood that as well. But I think it was the stealing defensive rebounds. But you got to get your money. You got to get your paycheck. I mean, yeah, but it also rebounds get more than I can pay. It's a star in that, you know, in this, I became obsessed with it, man. So it was, I mean, it turned out okay. You're coming back next year, right? Yeah, that's the plan. Okay. Well, I think it's awesome. I think this whole late career path has been great. And it's great. You're going to be around the finals for a lot of it, all of it. Yeah, some of it. Yeah, we'll see. All right, I'm with you. My official pick was Nixon seven. I think they can actually do it. I do too. I think that, I mean, they're here for a reason, right? So they're underdogs, but I think they can do it. But I'm like, I'm, I just like, let's just have a long crazy series. All right, Deandre Jordan. Thanks for sending some time with us. I'll see you at the finals. Unblocked on social media. There you go. You heard it right here. All right. That's it for this episode of the Zacklow Show. Not your normal episode. Thanks for sticking with us. Thank you to Jonathan Frias on site with us today in San Antonio. Thank you to our great local crew who helps set us up today. Thank you to Robert Orey, Deandre Jordan, Tim Legler, Ian Begley, Gary Peyton for their time on an exhausting day for them on podcast row. Thanks to you all for listening to Andorr watching the Zacklow Show game one of the NBA finals by the time this goes up will be today buckle up. It should be an awesome series. Thanks, everybody. 21 or over in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas. Star Casino or 18 and over in president DC. 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