Navigating Wine Lists and Confidence: A Conversation with Natalie McLean

I say I started drinking when I met my husband and haven't found a reason to stop. He's now my ex-husband by the way. Oh, okay. Well, it's all right. I'm getting some credit. Wine helped. Sit back and grab a glass. It's Wine Talks with All K. Hey, welcome to Wine Talks with Paul K and we are in studio today in beautiful Southern California about 65 degrees here in Los Angeles. And I hope you are experiencing the same across the country. We have a wonderful guest today and Natalie McLean will get to the introductions in the second. Wine Talks is available on Spotify, Idle Heart Radio Pandora. You name it. We are there and always sponsored by the original wine of the month club now supporting the Bordeaux and Napa series. But let's get to the show because this is a lot of fun. I was fortunate enough to be on her show recently and we wanted to get her on Wine Talks because this is Natalie McLean all the way from Canada. What part of Canada were you in Natalie? I'm in Ottawa, the capital, the snowy capital. The snow is a cold up there today. It's getting warm, our kind of warm though. I should redefine what warm is after hearing your weather report. Yes, all right. We're in Celsius so the conversion always escapes me but it's about plus eight degrees Celsius right now. So we're above freezing. Hey, 16th is 16. That's like 30. That's like 46. Exactly. So we're wearing shorts and t-shirts as a result because we are Canadian. We are winter hearty. I set out when I was a kid, a teenage girl, I was going to come up with my own conversion because it's a linear conversion from Celsius to centigrade to a Fahrenheit. You have to have sort of a moving scale. Yes. I double the centigrade and I add 28. That would get you within a couple of degrees either way. And if it gets warmer than that scale changes a little bit. But I want to read your accolades because this is very important. Primarily, you consider yourself the chief, excuse me, of wine happiness. And we're going to get to that in a second to find that. But you're off of the book Red, White and Drunk All Over. And our kind of book, A Wine Soaked Journey from Grape to Glass. And here's a picture of it. And the book, Unquenchable, A Tipsy Quest for the World's Best Bargain Wines. She happens to have a copy with her now. She also has one James Beard Fisher Distinguished Writing Award, Calling the Shots. James Board Award for the Internet, Call 'em and Future Writing. Easy for me to say. Finding in the Wild, Wild West, Lady Things, the Booz. These are clever names. Lady Things, the Booz. I can't resist a good pun. I just-- Great. Right and Drunk All Over. And later, there's a flaw in my wine. So all interesting subjects. It reminds me of the joke, hey, waiter, what's that fly doing in my soup? And he says the backstroke. So tell us about this at Journey, because it also suggests in some of the internet articles about you and what you've done that your husband got you into this. Is that true? Well-- Is the husband-- Absolutely. Well, I say I started drinking when I met my husband and haven't found a reason to stop. Oh, OK, well. It's a way I give some credit. Wine helped. I actually specialized in divorce wine tastings, which Cabernet pairs best with burning wine love letters-- or sorry, love letters. But anyway, that's another topic and another tasting. No, we're going to have to talk about that for sure. OK. So I'll keep you going. Okay, here. Here, wine's with, you know, if you found yourself a good divorce lawyer and it's a great prenup or a doctorate, that's for you. That's for me. Anyway, I'm getting carried away. That's for you. That's for me. But I did get into wine with him. We were two MBAs, A-type personalities. And we moved to Toronto together. And as we met in business school, so we started first taking Spanish at night and sort of conjugating Spanish verbs and all that after a long day at work. He was at Citibank. I was at Proctor and Gamble. That just was-- we couldn't pack it. Then we thought, oh, let's take up golf. And that was a really bad idea. Yes. That's-- wow. That's for you. That's for you. Wow. Personality's, yeah, with long-fire clubs. No, no, no. Not a good pairing. Then I saw a wine course at our local college and I thought, we can drink at night. That will calm us down and we'll have fun. And so it started with that. We took it together. I continued for the full Somalia diploma program, but he just took the one course and enjoyed it. Well, you said a mouthful there. I have to ask a couple of questions because auto is what? What part? I might-- North American geography is not very good as far as Canada is concerned. What part of the country is it? That's OK. We're in Ontario. We're about an hour flight from Toronto. We're actually the country's capital, but we're so snowy here. Voltaire described Canada once as a few acres of snow. So no one knows where we are. We're the great white north. So we leave it. The police have gathered accolades from Voltaire. So that's great. But Spanish? I mean, seriously? Why would you take up Spanish? You know? Because we're high-ades. Why not French, at least? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, we learned French in school. So we thought being such obsessive compulsive, let's get another language just for fun. And learning language is just beautiful, but not after an eight, ten-hour workday at people who are intense companies. It was like, oh my gosh, please. It's very hard. My listeners have heard this before, but I started about five years ago studying French, and I was hell-bent to learn it, and my dad speaks French, which is in Cairo, where he grew up. In the 30s, French was the second language of the Arabic country until the English--the protectorate came in, and then English became obviously the second language. But if you watch film from the 30s, from Cairo, most of the science business science are in the Arabic and French. So it's hard to do. You have to be really disciplined to do it. You have to get up early in the morning to speak with the--that's actually services now. There's a one called iTalky.com. In case you want to resurrect your Spanish. No thanks. I'm going to pursue it. I don't know. But you know. And then the golf thing is hilarious, because it reminds me of the Raymond episode where they decide as a couple, they're going to play golf together and sort of take on the husband's hobby. Right. It doesn't go well in the episode. No. I have this long club and I'm in the sanfit going, I don't have any more tips, don't I? Yeah. And that would happen for sure. But it didn't say like he suggested that you take wine classes. Was there any wine enthusiast prior to that? Besides just catching a buzz late at night? Yeah, exactly. Well, I calmed on to wine because I was working for--I also--I went from Proctor and Gamble to a high-tech company that's now the headquarters of Google and Mountain View. So I started arranging my meetings, quarterly meetings on a Friday or Thursday. So I could drive up to Napa because the one thing when you're working in an intense job, the one thing you can do is take clients out to dinner and start to gain an appreciation for wine. That sort of thing. So there was no time for golf thank goodness. But I started to learn about wine. And so that was always there in the background. And so we both thought, "Yeah, that sounds good. Let's find out what we're drinking so we know what to buy and how to pair it with food and that sort of thing." Was it intimidating back then because Proctor and Gamble for one being corporate America? I mean, the huge company. And I want to get into that marketing, the gorilla marketing that they do a little bit if we can. But was it intimidating for you to start--you're trying to entertain clients. You're going to dinner. Look at the wine list that's very confusing. Each wine list is different. How did that go for you? Well, you know, the first experience I actually remember was pre-proctor and Gamble. When I was at the end of--we were near the end of the MBA, we were all getting interviews. And I went for one with McKinsey and Company, which is a consulting company. And the final rounds, you went to dinner with a partner. And he was shaken down. His Rolex watch and his little burberry collection, all the rest of his noodles. Why don't you choose the wine? And so I had nothing, no experience except maybe, you know, cold baby duck back at the high school portable. That was--yeah, like that was the experience. We just sent that by the way, just so you know. No, missing it. But that was just--that was my experience. I thought, "Well, and I'm scanning the wine list and just sweating bullets because I feel like this is a test." And it was as part of the interview. And so I thought, "Oh, I'll choose something safe and fancy. Mondale de Cabernet from California." So I went with that and then I sort of look up and he goes, "Well, that's going to be interesting with my dover soul." Anyway, learned later that-- Really. Incredibly bad match. Didn't get the job. Don't think it was because of the wine choice. But I never felt so intimidated. And so, like, I need to know what this wine stuff is all about because I never want to feel that way again because it's something that gives us pleasure. But it's also wine is something that can make us feel very uptight and very small town, girl, in my case. It's, you know, that's a--the interesting story because here you are, the pressure of an interview, sort of speak, and sort of a social. And I just had a front of my son just was interviewed for a job. And the last interview was they took him to a bar. And this is a high-end real estate firm that does a lot of big business across America. And they wanted to know how he socialized, you know, in that environment. And, you know, he was sort of-- of, in that environment, you'd normally would say, well, I'm not going to order a drink because that might be a bad thing, but they wanted to order a drink and understand how he reacts to that in that situation. Well, that was interesting. So it seems to me, and this is for the listeners, and for people that are trying to study one, I want to learn about wine, but that is an intimidating, it's even intimidating for us, if I'm on a list that I don't know. In other words, it's always handed to me, right? You probably get the list everywhere you go, whether you're with guests or friends or family, they go, oh, give the list to Natalie. She's, she not understand why. And then you look at it, you know, she, I don't think I've had that burgundy. I don't think I've had that board though, and then we go back to the stuff that we've, that we've, may recognize or we've tasted before. And I highlight by, I was responsible for the wine of the Easter Gathering years ago with my in-laws down Palm Springs, and I forgot to bring it. Okay, so that is the first mistake. So, then I went to the market, and I just like every other consumer, I went to the market, so I'm looking at the wines, and I'm going, you know, I never tasted that. So I really don't know if it's proper or balanced or whatever, you know, acronyms you're trying to look for, adjectives are looking for, but, and I made a bad decision, one of them was really good, it could value, the other one wasn't so great, and I bought it on the brand. So, that it takes confidence to do this, doesn't it? - It does, and you're right, Paul, like, wine, restaurant wine lists, if they're any good, are trying to get wines that you haven't tried before, or that aren't often stalked in liquor stores or that sort of thing, 'cause they wanna give you a new taste experience, so that puts us, even as experienced tasteers, often in the same seat, because I don't know, and, you know, am I going to take a chance on that whatever, $75, $50 burgundy, or whatever it would be, but it's a lot more expensive. - Yeah, well, yeah, I wish. (laughing) - Exactly, and so, you know, I always defer to the sommelier, if I'm in a place that cares about wine. Like, what do you think of this wine, or, you know, we're having the veal and the chicken, what do you think this wine work? You know, and the thing that people come back at me for is, well, how can I signal how much I want to, you know, pay, you know, especially if I don't wanna declare out loud, how much you're willing to pay for love on a date or business, and I just tip the wine list toward me, and just point at the prices, only the sommelier is a burger. - Yeah, and I'll say, I want something in this range, and everyone else thinks I'm thinking, you know, talking style or region. - Yeah, right. - But, think, well, this is how much I want to pay. - That's the other intimidating thing, though, is that if you're with guests that you're not sure what their budgeting is like, or whether you're suspending $100 on the bottle of wine, or not, you know, you sort of intimidate it. So, when we're in Paul Bucuzes in Lino, you know, I was able to say the, you know, cut the console and the other type of thing to the song, 'cause my guest didn't know what that meant. And I was telling him I wanted the Bordeaux in the $400 range, and, you know, that was easy, but you're right, it's, you're worried like somebody in front of you that your guests are gonna go $100, you know, in the back of their mind, and they're going, oh, I guess I'm buying, right? - Yeah. - But that's interesting comment, though, the, the, the Psalms role in a restaurant, a real restaurant that has a real wine list, not one that's produced by the local wholesaler, is pretty important to help guide clients through, and interpret what you're asking them for. You pointed to the dollar amount, but stylistically, they have to interpret what we tell them, why are we like, and the way I do that, maybe it's the same, is I ask people what they usually drink. I drink, you know, Jordan, I usually drink silver oak or whatever, and then we can at least get a style through that, but how do you, how do you recommend to the, to, to, to people at a restaurant that are trying to decipher a menu, a wine list, and explain to the Psalm what they're doing? - Exactly, that's a great tip, really great tip. - That, just what, what are we drinking? You know, what are we drinking doing? So what is the chief of wine happiness? I mean, that's a self-proclaimed thing, or is that a degree that you are in? - Oh yeah. - I agree, I love to go to that school. Oh my goodness, I just have to figure out my minor and my major, but chief of wine happiness, I mean, you know, I just, I recognize that wine is pleasure. For most of us, we are just buying a glass of pleasure. We are not signing up for the encyclopedia of wine, though that's great if you want to dive head first into wine with all of the different facets and knowledge. But, you know, at, at bottom, I think most of us just want to relax with friends, have a good glass, it's not going to disappoint them. And that's my mission. So I put that rather than any initials or degrees or diplomas or anything beside my name. - Well, I think that's an important distinction. I want to, the list is understanding. I mean, I have full respect for MWs and MSs and anybody that's pursuing that. And in California, just to sell wine now is a, as an entry-level job. If you just want to get in the streets and go to liquor stores and restaurants and sell them wine, you need something, you need a Whitsett degree or level one's Psalm certification. Something that says you're attempting to learn a little bit. And so those certifications are important, particularly in jobs where it's important to have knowledge, but they certainly are not degrees to the extent that we can't learn the same thing by studying ourselves. Okay, I want them to make that really clear. I think maybe the confidence issue comes into play when you have that degree. In other words, I have really good friends that really understand wine, but they still describe it with a question mark at the end. Itays, blackberries, you know? - Right, straight. - Straight, straight. And it's like, no, itays blackberries, that's what I taste. - That's an explanation mark. Say, violets and spring and everybody will agree with you. - Right, that's right. - That's exactly what I, what I'm gonna start using that. - Yeah, well, you know, just as long as you say it with power. But that's exactly why, you know, I teach online wine, food pairing classes. It's people don't necessarily want to become masters of wine, most of us, but we want to become the expert on our own palette. And that is that confidence to go into a liquor store and not default to the same bottle every time, or to join a wine club, of course, and to experiment and to have a confidence. I know what I like. I know when I want to branch out and try something new, I know what pairs with a variety of dishes. That's why, you know, people come to me, at least for the online pairing courses that I offer, because, you know, it's a very small percentage of the population that want to become true experts in the way that master of wine and master sommelier can do for you. - Well, it's a, it's a pursuit. It's a pursuit of education, like anything else. If you want to learn a language, you pursue it through all the means you can. And there's plenty of resources online to read about wine, and books have got a huge library, books accumulated over the years. So, you said something important though, that the ethereal value of a glass of wine, I want people, as you put it, to just enjoy the glass of wine they're having. And we, and I can't predict everybody's palette and what they're gonna like, though we find something really interesting, like the other day I tasted the Canary Islands, the Lisbon Negro, I've never heard of the grape. And I really enjoyed the wine. And it may not that everybody enjoys it, but your idea that we want to relax with a good glass of wine. And what does that mean, good glass of wine? Well, I think it's perfectly fine. I do it all the time, and I know it's hard to imagine. I dump out a lot of wine. That made because I've access to it, but I don't want to suffer through a glass of wine. Why would I want to do it? - Yep, like too short. And we're trying to drink within moderation limits, so you can only consume so much alcohol. And that's drinking your tasting. So you gotta choose wisely, I think, you know, just like a person else in life. Yes. - Well, you want to test the limits of, you know, you can only drink so much alcohol. Probably tested the limits too many times on that. But I was tasting the other day, and I'm sure if we talked about this on your show, but I tasted another day, and I tasted a shiner of wine with no label. And I tasted it, and I said, you know, and we're going through a wedding right now, my daughter's getting married in a couple of weeks. - I'm glad to. - Actually, I'm gonna thank you, it's less than that now, it's scary. And I think of myself, well, I suppose if this wine had a private label on it, and it was part of a venue that did a lot of weddings, this would be okay. And then I stopped myself, this is my own thought. I didn't, it wasn't talking to anybody, it's talking to myself. I'm like, no, actually, if I'm gonna have a wedding and invite guests, I want to pour nice wines. I want people to feel what you're talking about, relax. Maybe even have a conversation about the wines at the table with their guests, the other guests. Why would I sacrifice one of the most important parts of the meal, let me cut back on the valet budget, you know? Let me cut back and have a band, it's not so good. (laughing) - It's like a fancy car without having the money to pay for gas, I mean, it's like make, report. - Good point. - You know, it's, - Yes, that's I think. - There's, I wanted to talk about your book, the Red, White, and Drunk all over. So when you set out, after you set out to learn about wine with your husband, how long did, by the way, it's just for fun, how long did the, the Ensemble lessons last? - Oh, he only took the one course, our Mary Lester Walker, that was a good 20 years. So, but yeah, he was done, 'cause then he deferred to me, know how you do off. in a relationship, okay, you do wine, I'll do finances or whatever. Yeah, right. Stereotypical. But anyway, yeah, he did the one intro course with me and then I took over. Did you learn, did you learn like his palette because I have, my wife's palette is totally different than mine and I ensure that I bring home the things that she will appreciate. And I sometimes open two bottles because I don't feel like it. Exactly. Yeah, no, he did, he had a different palette and so does my current partner, Miles. And at first, Miles was drinking very inexpensive Australian charazan. I thought, oh, great. Wow. And then so we, I'd start opening wines and one night he noticed that my red, my red wine was a different color. He said, what's that? And I, I just said, red wine. You have red wine. I have red wine. And that's basically as it gets. Exactly. And then he said, no, that looks different. And so I had to explain to him that it was a Rome Valley from Begale and it was, it was price. So he said, I want to taste. This sounds awful of me, but he took a taste and he loved it. And then from there, he's been so much more expensive to keep in mind. I mean, got rid of the inexpensive charazan then just switched to that. So, but still, our taste still differ. I mean, generally I actually enjoy a pino, but he's still on that pricey, Gigelle, Rome Valley stuff. You got to keep him from going north, you know, don't get him into the club of New Wee or sugar, big problems. Exactly. Exactly. There is no north, France and fear for wine. That's right. And the Rome Valley. That's it. How was, how, this is a conversation yesterday with, with a woman who's trying to look into the idea of starting a club for a very well-known trade magazine or not a trade magazine, but consumer magazine. And I was, she lives in New York. And I said, you know, you can go to any, there's fine wine shops in New York almost every corner it seems like. And you can find really, really nice wines here. In Canada, is it the same? I mean, how do you buy a wine in Canada? What's the availability of different things like Gigelle, Rome wines or Coat to the New Burgundy's? What's the general availability given the liquor laws in Canada? Well, we're still more suffering from prohibition hangover than you are in the States in that most of the provinces have government control liquor stores. So in Ontario, we have the liquor control board of Ontario, LCDO and all the other. The FAMED. Exactly. And there are a few wine shops that are grandfathered into existence because wineries open wine shops and so they're allowed to exist, but we do not have a privatized system here. They do an Alberta and in spots across the country, but it's very regulated. And so the availability depends on the buying power of those, those near monopolies. So the LCDO does have a lot of buying power. It does present a lot of wines through its stores, but we just don't, we don't have a store that's like Tuscany is us kind of thing. If you just want to specialize in Tuscany, you really do have to go with the availability of what's in those liquor stores. Actually, yesterday I was looking for pricing on the Bordeaux. I really liked it. And I just found in Southern California a Bordeaux shop. I'm like, wow, that can't be like doing that great, but actually during during COVID actually has been very good. I just, when you said the LCDO, which, you know, I think it's like one of the largest retailers in the world, right? I mean, they buy everything. And Pennsylvania up until recently in the US was the largest US retailer because they had the same sort of restrictions, but just in the state level instead of a country level. But I just realized, okay, so Canada, suffering from a little bit of post prohibition and then headed south to the US, we suffer from it, but Joe Kennedy was smart enough to give all his friends regional control over the booze distribution. So at least we have some freedom to, and each state has control over it and some are more free than others. But then you go to Europe, and I'm wondering if there's a relationship between the amount of time, wine has been part of the culture and the freedom to buy it and express it. So Europe, there's no problem, right? Right. Most of the rest of the world there's no problem. Then you go to the US, we put South through prohibition, there was political football, still is, we're a little freer than Canada, and now Canada, probably the tail end of alcohol being part of the culture has the most restrictions. Why has this become a political thing? Why can't we just experience life as the Europeans do? Is there any wind of change coming, you know? Oh, yeah. I think change is coming. But wine has always been politicized, whether it's tariff disputes or just the sin taxes put on alcohol like it is on gasoline and other goods that the government feels we don't really need to consume. But I do think change is coming, and consumers demand it. But now, you know, in a COVID, hopefully we're coming out of COVID, but in this environment, the record laws are starting to loosen. For example, restaurants could never deliver alcohol with meals. Now they can. Those laws have been changed, and their, their, I think, word is they're going to stay changed. So we've got all of these restaurants now opening up their own wine delivery business, because you know, it can include a salty cracker and that's the food. And then just sell, sell your stock of wine. And as we know, Paul, in the restaurant business, customers will eat you poor and drink you rich. The margin is in all of the alcohol, but even the tea and the coffee. So I think change is coming. It took a disruptor and inflection point like COVID that I think is an exeilerant that brought the future forward 10 years, but that's a good thing because we're starting to get more options and I think it will continue. Well, it, I, you're right. I agree with that. America, in America, the changes fluidly when I, in 1988, when I bought the company for my father, you really, nobody really cared. I mean, you just shipped because it wasn't a thing then. My dad invented the idea in the 70s. So even in the early 80s and late 80s, he just did it. If you loaded the UPS truck with a 200 boxes, you only manifested 150, nobody really cared. And they couldn't gone anywhere. And they were, they, we rest, rest of the, rest of the state's in California. So if Minnesota or Missouri wrote a law that resembled our law, which said basically, hey, we can ship wine to your state and you can ship wine to our state and we don't care. We're not going to tear for tax anybody. And that those are still around, but they're different than they were. A lot of them went different ways. And so we're still seeing in the US challenges to liquor laws and some states strapping down more and other states loosing it up. But it's the problem with America is we're getting sued now for shipping stuff. There was an article came out the other day where it was determined that one in three bottles shipped to Michigan last year were illegal, whatever that means. I would suggest it's probably more than that, not illegal, but it's me that tried two or three bottles are illegal. But it's up to us for a lifestyle to, to decide in my opinion if, if we want to have wine in our meal and we want to be able to buy it openly, I think the consumer has to step up. We have a group here called free of the grapes and be able to have access to whatever we want. You know, what's interesting about the human race is that we're very creative. So when, when the governor of California shows up at the French laundry, you know, and for $800 a seat, which we were there two weeks before he went, you know, and I'm sure you're aware of the story. And my wife was like, I want to go in the room because the French laundry has four or five rooms and normally during regular hours, there's four or five tables in each room. But what they decided to do during COVID was that they, that you could rent one room privately at that time and then this per seat cost prefixed came $800. Wow. And if you're outside on the regular dining area during the patio, it was $400. Okay. So it's expensive. What a deal. Yeah. But Newsom was in the $800 section just so you know, just for the set to record straight. But after that, Newsom decided that he wasn't going to tell us what was acceptable food. And you said he could deliver a salty Canadian wine delivery, can have a salty and call it food, right? So we are serving 25 cent top ramen at some of the bars to get around that code, right? Right. It works. Then they came out, this is a true story. They came out with a list of foods that qualify for Brasserie style food. So it was okay to serve a chicken breast on a plate, but not chicken wings. Okay. I mean, seriously, it's time on their hands who are making these. Can you imagine this? It was written that way. It was literally written in an article in the code that chicken breast qualifies for real food out of Brasserie, but chicken wing does not. And I just bogged my mind and then then he had to who's an enforcer's this. I mean, who's going to go around and be chicken wing chicken wing police? I'm sorry. It's all cut up now. I can't tell you. How we have that same thing going on in Canada are laws in terms of cross border shipping are nuts. And again, it's largely due. believe to the liquor stores who don't want to lose their revenue or who want to keep taking the tax revenue and turning it well. They do turn it over to the government, but still it's a way of maintaining control. But we have free migrapes as well. But what surprises me is that wine is the most value added agricultural product we produce in this country and probably yours as well. It's the only product we put in the original packaging on the dinner table. We don't, you know, I think we talked about this. We don't have the stickers on the apples or the strawberries. And yet we're not allowing these small farmers, which is what minorities are, to increase their market and allowing consumers to increase their diversity of taste from something that is truly homegrown. I mean, it just boggles my mind that we are not supporting farmers in this way. Excuse me. This is interesting because I'm going to take some notes as you're talking. Wine is farming. It is. Dancing farming. Yep. Yeah. We'll start as. I don't think the consumers know that the most wine farms are just that. They're not wineries actually. They sell their grapes to variety of wineries and they start a lot of them start out. I can't tell you how much wine I taste here that started as well. We used to farm grapes. We sell them to silver oak. We sell them the cameras or something and now we make our own wines. And that's probably not a good idea, but it happens all the time. When I go to the wine shop and I went not too long ago to the supermarket, just my wife hates it because when I go to the supermarket, I veer off to the wine section and she's out trying to shop and I'm, you know, screwing around checking the prices. But in the local vans in the beach area here, every single wine had a shelf-talker, which is for the listeners, one of those tags that hangs down and it's got the point system. And I'm looking at, as I try to pull myself back being in the industry and I know much of the wines that have tasted there, but how do I figure this out? I mean, I'm looking at a shelf-talker. How do I know? Isn't it confusing to all these ratings and all the everybody's got a rating now? And they're all over 90. And they're all over 90, that's right. I mean, I guess you can find anyway, but is it the same in Canada and how do we as consumers try to sort through all this? It is. There's many issues associated with that. It's a great, great question. So everyone has a rating now and I think it's because wine is unlike so many other products we buy. We can't try it usually, at least legally, before we consume it. And, you know, we're going on the label most of the time. You know, you can try on a dressy or a suit. You can read the first chapter of a book, but you can't open that wine. And so then the externals start to matter a whole lot more. The label, the shelf-talker, and most of us are too intimidated to talk to liquor store staff, even though they could be a great help. And I suggest that as much as you would a sommelier in a restaurant. So that's what we're down to. And so the liquor store wants to sell every wine it buys and puts out there on the shelf. So it's going to look for the highest scores it can from whatever source. So it loves every wine, but you necessarily won't. And even if it is on 92 or a 94, you might not like that wine. So what I recommend to my students and podcast listeners and so on is find someone whose palette lines up with yours. So that you know that when that person gives it a 92, it's something you're going to like. Because there's a lot of great inflation going on. I mean, just there's crazy scores now where everything's getting a 98 or a 99 from certain sources. But you have to learn, is that a trustworthy source? Or at least do I trust it? Does my palette line up with that person's rating and score? And then beyond that, the final tip I always give is make sure you're looking at the words, not just the numbers, because it might be a 94 for Bochelet, but you don't like light red wines. That's a great point. Yeah, look at the words. Is it do you like light versus full-bodied red? Well, red versus one is pretty obvious. But you know, do you like lots of mouthwatering juicy acidity? Or do you like something that is a bit calmer and not as juicy? You got to look at the words too, not just the numbers. I think that's a really important point. If we're trying to experiment trusting the description of this rating system, and I think you're right. I think if you can choose the rating system that you like, if it's a spectator, enthusiast, James Suckling, and now there's some new new ones out there. And I just started, frankly, with wines that I think are really good. Not everyone I think the consumers in listener should know is rated. I mean, it's a conscious decision to get your wine rated. And there's a lot of political reasons why you would or wouldn't do it. You know, you might be afraid of that score or low score and you can't publicize that. But you know, you have to send those wines to the rating system. You do whatever you're rating the wines and you have the way for the publication to come out. And so there's a most wines are not rated, particularly small boutique wine. It just don't bother. So you may not see everybody with a rating. But I think it's important to know that there's some consistency amongst the ratings. And look, if you're talking about James Suckling, he is not tasting all the wines that ran themselves. He can't. He's got hundreds, probably thousands of wines that taste. And he has a panel of guys that do it for him just just as he started at the spectator. But I think finding a consistent source of what you like and what you trust is an important way to do it. The way we've been doing at our office now, it's always been the same premise, but never publicizing. So I started calling it Tuesday's tastings. So if you see a TT around, you can be fine. It's a very important thing. But we do score everything I say. Everything I sell has got a 90 plus rating from me, because I'm not rating it against the universe. I'm rating it against its peer. So other $20 cabinets, this is a 98 because that one's an 88. So it's sort of a price. Yes. Factory in the price, looking at that shelf and saying, okay, all those $20 cabs, that's a 98. This is a 75. And so it's a slightly different approach. I do get customers asking, why did you get that $198? I didn't like it. I'm like, well, amongst other $20 cabinets, it was worth it based on what I taste. But I can't please all the pallets all the time. No, you can. It's impossible. But I think Paul that people will follow you and your individual taste, which is a good thing. Now, there's lots of tasting panels where you get a group of, I don't know, eight to 10 people and they come up with one score. And to me, that drags wind down to an innocuous middle ground that I don't think serves anybody because you're going to get the person on that panel who loves that juicy acidic, uh, reasling. And then the one who thinks it's too tart or whatever. And I just think that's why in the wine world, we know individuals more than we know panels. Like you know, Robert Parker, he was so famous as a US wine critic. But, you know, who is the tasting panel for Wine Enthusiast magazine? I'm not sure. I mean, there are certain names that even contribute to these magazines. But I think wine is such an individual experience that for me, at least, you need to find an individual whose palette lines up with your own and trust that rather than a sort of communal consent of that, you know, as I say, beige middle ground of everybody sort of liked it, but no one in particular. I think I told you this story. There was a cabinet came by here a few months ago and I really, really liked it and it hadn't been rated, never been sent in. So I contacted the broker. And in America, you, we buy wines through wholesalers, the regular group, Southern Yonza Spirits, Youngers Market, R&DC, whoever it is. Big, thick books of wines, tons of things to choose from. And then there's brokers that just go hustle stuff and they bring in some really amazing things. And so she brought in this gorgeous cabinet and I said, and I don't, me, I don't want it to have ratings. I don't ask them to make sure this ratings. I don't care if there's a rating. I just ask if there is one, just to understand what they've done with it. She goes, no, but do you want one? I'm like, well, so I go, it's gonna shop around for a rating. Yeah, she's gonna go give it to an MW, say, you know, this guy 98 from so and so. And so that kind of defeats the whole, the whole thing, right? That leads to the, the, the, the next conversation. It's a good segue to these celebrity wines. I just read yesterday, Gordon Ramsay came out with a whole brand of, I think they're central coast of Monterey based Pino's and Shardinays. Wow. Pino and Shardinay, I would expect him to do something honking big like an Amaroadie or whatever and have foul language on the back of the label. You so. But it's interesting, right? Well, they're, they're through Seabold and it's Chris Miller, the famed master's psalm and he has a wine, a wine or himself called Seabold. Now, here's, so there's a master's psalm who's making wine, which they're a handful of those guys. It's interesting to me because again, we go back to these acronyms. It doesn't mean they're any better wine makers than anybody else because they studied all this. They understand it for sure, but the wine making is science and biology and and fermentation science. So it doesn't make it that you're good. Wine makers just because you have a MWMS. But regardless, typically over the years, celebrity endorsed wines have not worked in America. Have you seen them in Canada and are they people care? Well, we've seen lots of celebrity wines. I don't know that they have that much staying power because if you're paying a premium for that brand or that celebrity cachet, I'm not sure it's worth it. We talked about this I believe on my podcast, but Snoop Dogg has just launched up here in Canada. And you talked about Snoop Dogg. -Cali Red. -And that shells like making its way down in popularity, going to the low shelf. So it'll be interesting to see how that goes up here. Oh, I do know one of our national newspaper columnists said it's so sweet it ruins the finish or whatever. He gave it a really low score like low for the price. And so I can't imagine that's going to go for well. So but but at the same time, I think there are celebrities who actually care about wine and do a good job and often their names aren't on the label. If you think the singer pink her brand is wolf something and then you've got well, they divorce but brand Jolene of Brad Pitt and usually with Miraval made by a very great winery in the Rhone Valley. So you do have exceptions to the rule, but I find on principle there are exceptions not usually celebrity wines, you know, their go-to's. -Well, there's a couple I have a couple of opinions to that. One is yeah, you're paying a premium. There's no way Gordon Ramsay or Snoop Dogg or anybody else is putting their name on the label without a fee. -Yes. -That's just business. And unfortunately, wine is business. The people that make wine, they grow grapes to make wine, they're in it to make money. We're not going to throw crops away because we'll do is coming and we're not going to self-fight it if we're into that no-self-fight type of thing. We're going to do it because it's business. We've got to put it in the bottle. And I think that's also the premise of a lot of bad wines. There are bad wines out there. They're from bad grapes. There are good grapes that make bad wines too from the wine makers point. So they're bottled and they're sold in bulk and they're blended with other things to soften them. And you mentioned the sugar content of Snoop Dogg's wine. That's a classic way to do two things. One is make it more approachable for the regular wine drinker. In my experience here at the Wine of the Month Club is yes, wines that have a little bit of residual sugar in them tend to do pretty well because they're sold or an easy to drink. They don't have the hard to drink a lot of because eventually that becomes clawing in a hard to drink. But the initial expression of the sugar is more approachable. That's definitely one of the things that they do to cut and also to cut the bitterness. They put a little bit of sugar in there because the grapes are so good in the first place. But is he going to call it Cali Red in Canada? What does he call it? Something else. It's his name on it. Snoop Dogg. And they've got this great big metal statue of him in one of the-- Oh, do they really? And he's got corks all at his feet. I don't know what's going on. But you know you're right. Sugar and oak, often the catch up of the wine world, used to sort of hide bad grapes or poor wine making. If you that's all you're tasting or that's the primary sensation, you probably aren't looking at well-made wine. Yeah, because there's a big, there's a big difference between oak that's been infused into the wine through chips or steves to flavor it versus wine's aged and barrel to actually soften it and then give it the nuances. And I think it's important to understand. So this Gordon Ramsay thing I'm thinking, okay, he's going to, it's going to sell some, you know, and I think most of the time that the celebrity approach is that, well, I'm a really special person and so people will buy it because it's mine. Now the other day I had a wine, it was from Torelloans, a football NFL player. I'm thinking myself, I mean, seriously, and I know who made it. I know what I could buy the juice for if I just bought it for myself. It's considerably less than that bottle of wine that they want to charge because Torelloans is the name of the wine. Just seeing Torelloans, I don't even, wasn't sure it was football career, but why would we think that a football player or a basketball player or a golfer's wine has anything to do with anything? Exactly. Yeah, and there was even a study on this, Paul, at a university here in Canada, Brock, and they did, they did blind panel tastings with different celebrities, except they made the celebrities up. And one was a wrestler and one was a golf pro and one was a football and then a hockey. And you know, the wrestler ended up at the bottom, but just as we might expect, the golfer that Jean-Teele, lots of rolling greens on the association, was more brand on brand for wine. So there you go. Really? Yeah. I was actually, I'm going to tell the story because it's really crazy, but I was in an RFP, I was in a proposal mode to be the professional golf association wine club. And so you would think that there's a affinity between golf and wine. You would actually think, and I'm going to say this out loud, that there's an affinity between food and wine. Of course, there is when we drink and eat, but there really is no marketing affinity. It's very difficult to define that for you, but we have not found over the years of pure marketing business that foodies are necessarily anymore better wine buyers as far as quantity and what they like. But regardless, the golf association was looking for a club to start and they felt that there's this huge simulation between golfers and wine. So I won the bid. I went through a whole presentation, and we're going to start this club. At that time, there were 16 golfers that had wines. And I was invited to Pinehurst and present all the wines to a group of people that were interested in knowing. And there's one couple came, she was always just bought a bottle of, I forgot who the golfer was, from the clubhouse. And they paid like 30 bucks. Okay, for this bottle of wine. And I was just offered the same juice with the standard label from that winery for $3.00, a wholesale cost. Oh no, oh my God. I felt so bad for them. They're like, what do you think of it? I'm like, you know, I don't know. But none of those golfers have wine still, except for Greg Norman, because he actually owns two wineries. So in Morgan's daughter actually manages the wineries and manages the source of the grapes and manages what the wine tastes like. But none of the golfers have wines today. And one of them was really good. It was Fred Couples, I forgot who made the wine, but it was a well-known winery in Napa. And but it was a $60 sandwich of AC. And if I'm a wine enthusiast, am I going to walk into the wine shop? And I know I can at that time spend $60 on an Alexander Valley silver oak or Fred Couples sandwich of AC. Right. You know it's a marketing game. Even if you like Fred Couples still, it might be a gag gift or whatever the first time, but as you know, Paul, you know, what's on the label sells the first time, what's in the bottle sells the second time. And people need to see the quality. That's right. Oxford paying. So the irony of the end of the story is we never started the club. And that was because the poor soul that was the liaison who used to work for the golf association who thought this idea was going to work and brought it to the PGA and brought me in on it was walking from the first green to the second tee in a promotional golf tournament with one of the presidents of like titleists or one of these big companies and a tree fell and killed them. Oh no, that's awful. Isn't that crazy? That is crazy. And it kind of goes to show you when you're time, but they called me immediately because I was one of the last phone calls he had made on his cell phone to discuss this thing. And he had just gotten the contract from the PGA that morning or the morning before. And we were about to discuss the three way relationship between the PGA and why the month club and him. And it never happened. It was Bruce Florene. It was really sad. And it was just kind of a crazy, crazy end of a story really. I should have brought that up and depressed the whole podcast. Getting back to golf, of course, the only thing I liked about it was going back to the clubhouse after we had fought our way through the greens and having a nice glass of wine and steak, though they weren't branded. But yeah, that's my only association with wine. Golf, right? There you go. Well, you said that at least the next question we talked about this a little bit before, but worst moment in wine. Is there such a thing as that? And what might it be for you that you just said, oh my gosh, this is really not happening. Oh, so many. Where to start? So for my first book, Red White and Drunk Alover, I decided to do the day in the life approach. Meaning I worked as a sommelier in a fancy French restaurant. I worked in wine stores. I worked the harvest. So in the restaurant, I thought I'd up the ante and I'm naturally a nervous anxious person. And so I thought why not go for like a four-diamond restaurant, a French four-diamond restaurant here, to make myself extra nervous. And so, you know, I was trying to disappear into the wallpaper, but I finally had to flat my baby wings and get out there on the floor and serve people expensive lines and Bordeaux in particular. And I remember there was this couple two women actually and they ordered a very expensive wine. And I started pouring it and my hand was shaking so much that I dribbled it on the beautiful, beautiful white wine tablecloths. And so she didn't even look at me. Her voice in her face just turned really hard. And she kept talking to her friend and then I said I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And like I was in the slow motion. I'm sorry. And so she refused and she said, that'll be all. And I felt for the first time what it felt like dismissed, like not service. Wow. Yeah. And it was just like, oh my god, I'm never going to do this to anyone who makes a mistake in a restaurant ever again. So I just sort of slunk off and had to tell the manager and he comped, you know, an extra. I think it was either bottler glass, but it was just so like, oh my god. I have a solution for that. Okay. The wine pouring disc. That'll stop the drifts. That's right. I should have came up with my, I don't know if they would have allowed them in this fancy place. But yeah, it'd be like pouring with training wheels. I got my thing here. What would you think then as a wine educator? Well, no, no, not the wine educator, the chief of wine happiness. What would you consider your strongest suit? Like what would be the education aspect, their tasty skills, your ability to describe wine, which is different for everybody or pairing things, writing skills, obviously, a very high in your list. Thank you. Well, I think, you know, tasting, I don't know, I've been identified as a super taste or which doesn't mean I'm a better taste or it just means I'm a more sensitive one. You know, more taste buds and that, but I think really what my passion is is storytelling. And whether that's through my online courses and trying to connect with people through stories or the writing in the books, I just love stories. Like we've already, you're great, great interviewer, Paul, you're bringing the stories out of me, like, you know, sitting down, getting interviewed from McKinsey or whatever, just the one we just covered. But I think that's how people identify with you. No one identifies with cold, hard perfection. Like I know all the ventages of all the, you know, rain drops and everything. So you're sharing your humanity through a story, but you pin also embed the wine education through that. And that's that's really what I love to do. I've said this before, but my mother always put my peas in the mashed potatoes because she was hiding vegetables on me so that I love the creamy potatoes. But that's what I'm trying to do with stories is like, keep someone entertained and interested. But at the same time teach you a lot about wine, whether again, through the books or the online courses. How do you keep that passion going? Because how do you keep yourself educated? What are you doing to keep motivated to know the next step to understand what's coming into the thing? Like let's just talk about biodynamic and organic wines for a second. Very popular people are just asking questions. What are you doing to learn to learn, you know, to learn about it yourself? Well, this may be the lazy way out, but I just line up guests on that's why it's a great podcast and ask somebody else. And that's the way I educate myself. Because I just ask nosy, impertinent questions that I never get to ask if I were just at a dinner party with this person. So we'll dig right into biodynamics or orange wines or whatever the latest trend is. But that's that's the way I learned. I've all like being a writer gives you an excuse to nose your way into people's lives and ask them these questions. It gives you access. And that's the way I learned by keeping curious and staying both neurotic and impertinent. You know, it's funny. Well, I was saying pertinent, but maybe a little. No, just get the absolutely the question. We talked about Tilar Masio last time, the author of Hotel Place Vando and Widdell Clico. But that's exactly right. You know, I read her book because I love the stories of the war and I love Paris and we love the rich. We love the bar-hemming way. And so I read this story. I'm enamored and I find out that she has a winery. So she's on the show. We're talking about wineries. Well, I find that from her that she's part of the raw movement out of London with Isabelle Ezraun. And I get a chance to talk to you know. And so we move forward as podcasters and media like, well, that was the interesting story. I wonder where I can get to the root of that part of it, you know. Exactly. One thing branches into another and you just follow your line of curiosity. She says this a lot. This kind of goes back to, I'm keep coming up with more subjects and we're running out of time here. But we talked about biodynamic wines and I had a Bordeaux last night that was biodynamic. It was fabulous. And I would have only known it was biodynamic by the taste because they're a little brighter. They're a little fresher. They have a little bit more, you know, approachable character when they're younger. They don't seem to last as long, right? They don't age well. But they they sure are bright. But there are a lot of biodynamic and organic wines. It tastes like, you know, horse manure. And you know, and I'm guessing this is maybe you're going to use the fancy term. Yeah, barnyard. Well, now they have the poop emoji. I got to make a horse poop emoji. Yeah, that's right. It was like what type of poop is it? Exactly. So it's it's gets. And so I I keep thinking, I don't know if this generation and my my daughter who's the baker, New York loves orange wines. And she's she actually taught me about them. And when they first came out, I had never even heard of them. And if they can this generation, you know, they're stomaching these wines because a lot of them just aren't that good. It takes a long time as you've probably learned with your podcasting and your your reading experience for a winery. Let's say the three years minimum to become more certified organic or the three years minimum to become certified by the dynamic doesn't mean you make good wine from it. Right. It just means that you're you're processing the grapes and you're processing in the winery to the standards that that certification allows you. But it takes a long time to understand when you've converted a winery from conventional to organic by the dynamic, what those grapes are going to do. What they're going to taste like. How are we going to how are we going to make the best wine from those new grapes that no longer that are different from the ones that we grew before? Have you tasted some of these things and found them just to be really hard to swallow? Yes. Yes. swallow better words swallow. Yeah, exactly. Sure. There have been some real ugly babies in the glass. And you know, whether it's natural raw orange, I mean, there's just some weird stuff out there. But I recognize, you know, there's a whole world of taste and diversity and in drinkers as there is in glasses of wine. I just what I don't agree with is funkiness or weirdness for the sake of it. Like it's just a wine should still be well made without faults. You know, it should be try to be typical of where it's from. But just being, you know, it's like anything in music books and so on. You can be avant-garde, but that can't be the only virtue of what you're creating. It's because it delivers some message, some pleasure, some something beyond. I'm just different. I'm weird. Great way to put it. Yeah. Okay. Good. That's very articulate because you know, who has not been to the national food market and bought carrots or turnips or something and discounted. These systems taste that good. You know, they're just not that great. But they're very trendy. Yes. Just because they're organic doesn't matter. Yeah. We you were talking about doing a giveaway. Yes. And so I have a text number for the listeners and let this run for a little bit as the downloads multiply. And we're going to run a contest. So if you're listening and you want to win Natalie McLean's what? My ultimate guide to pairing food and wine. So it's kind of template driven. So it's meant to be a simple reference that you can use in the kitchen. And so it's all styles of wine, all styles of food. Well, that's pretty comprehensive. We use in there. Yes. And I just find it gives people guidelines. No hard and fast rules because the first rule of course somebody said it. Pair the wine to the diner or not the dinner. But if you want a jumping off point, these will give you some areas to to look for the wine. If you know the food, here's what might work wise and vice versa. So that's really fun. Very generous. Texting to 6262102380. And I'll repeat that in a minute to enter the contest to win Natalie McLean's food pairing guide. And just put in Natalie. And the text and we'll know who it is. And we will draw your name from a hat. And you can win a set of pairing guides, which is an important part of what we do because in the back to a conversation, I have a Jonathan Waxman, the fame chef around here. And we'll close with this thought. It's not that long ago that I that my aha moment and I've been doing this for 30 years, but the aha moment of of an endless moved the direction of what I do when I get home used to be honey. What are we having? Or what can I make it then I'd open the wine. And now when I get home, it's like what do I feel like drinking? Do I feel like this Canary Islands red? Or do I feel like a fine burgundy and spend $300 on the bottle? Or do I feel like my regular bordo, you know, from the bordo club? What do I feel like drinking? Or, in other words, how do I want to feel after I drink this? And then I worry about what's for dinner. And Jonathan Waxman said, yeah, that's what we do. I open the what I want to drink. And then I open the fridge and see what's going on in there. See the thing works. Is that happening at your house? Absolutely. I'm an earrings first kind of gal. And then I choose the outfit. So wine is always first. Not that wine is just an accessory. Thank you very much. But I certainly I lead with wine and then I figure out what could fit with the food, the people, the place, definitely I'm online first. Kind of. - I think it's a fun approach. And I encourage listeners to start thinking that way. And having a variety of wines on their shelf, at different price ranges, to the value field, to experience the character. Natalie, it's been a huge pleasure having on the show. I hope we get to do it again sometime. - Absolutely Paul. I would love to. I'd love the chat we had on reserve wine talk podcasts. And this one, I just think we could talk for hours. I know we could. - We could. - One thing I should note, with your listeners or viewers, everyone can get this. It's not a contest. If they go to NatalieMcClean.com/WOM as in "Why Not a Month?" So it's not just one person who will get it. It's everybody who wants it can get it. At, as I said, NatalieMcClean.com/WOM. NatalieMcClean.com/NathalieIE, mathCleanMACLEAN.com. - Yes. And no H, no H is Natalie with that. - I think I have PaulCowellCaron.com, but I don't think there's anything on it. So. (laughs) - There you go. I know, like choose a name. What was my mother thinking? How about that Smith? - Yes, right. - That Smith is good, mom. - Cheers and thanks again. I hope to see you soon. All right, thanks, Fall. Cheers to you too. - Thank you.