Navigating Uncertainty and Living Unscripted with Sheila Eggert

This is how it actually works. This is the how of it, which is really simple. Whatever you are thinking, you know, if you're thinking it's impossible for me to switch careers. For example, that leads to how you're feeling. You're feeling trapped. You're feeling hopeless. You're feeling disempowered. Those feelings then lead to behaviors. So if you're feeling, if you think it's impossible for me to change my career, it is impossible for you to change a career. Welcome to the Thrive Worthy Podcast, where career strategy meets soulful alignment, and where we talk honestly about how to build a life and career that feel aligned from within. I'm your host, Alicia D., and after over two decades as an executive in human resources, I learned that real success is both aligned and authentic, and it does not require self abandonment. And now I help accomplish professionals create careers and lives that feel as good on the inside as they look on the outside. So in this podcast each week, we'll explore a blend of neuroscience, psychology, and timeless spiritual wisdom, along with truly practical tools to help you create a life and career that are soul aligned. I'm so glad you're here, because we are all worthy of thriving. And this podcast will give you the tools to do just that. Thanks for listening. Welcome back everyone to the Thrive Worthy Podcast. I'm your host, Alicia D., and today I am thrilled to have with me Sheila Egert. So Sheila Egert is a dear friend. She also was my coach. We met each other years ago at JP Morgan. And today she is a transformational leadership advisor. And she focuses on change and culture. And she's also a TEDx speaker, keynote speaker, and an author. And she just has this beautiful story of healing and reinvention, and so much wisdom to share. So we could talk probably for hours with Sheila about all the different experiences she's had, and all the things she's learned along the way. But I thought it would be great for our listeners to hear from you, Sheila. So thank you so much for joining. To hear about some of the things that you've learned along the way in leaving different jobs, marriages, and really reinvention yourself to the woman you are now. So with that, welcome on the show. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. We go a long ways back. And I think the people that we both become along the journey are pretty different from where we were when we first were working together. Yeah, yeah. And I remember when I went to you a while back as my coach, you know, I mean, the thought of doing what I'm doing today was like, I wanted to do it, but like I was way too scared. And so, you know, you've taught me a lot of things about stepping through fear and creating safety and really living from a place of authenticity and alignment, which is what you're doing and why I think your story is so powerful for people to hear. With that, why don't you tell us a little bit in your own words about your journey? I mean, you've, you know, you've changed your whole, you know, job, focus career, left corporate. You're now living on the West Coast. Tell us a little bit about, you know, your journey and how you got there pretty much changed everything. And it's interesting because a lot of what I do now is about growth and transformation through lived experience. And so when I look back and my book, the power of living unscripted is a teaching memoir. So it chronicles my journey from, you know, living my life as I think many of us can relate to, you know, living my life from all the scripts that are laid out from us for us, right? About getting going to college, getting good grades, getting a job, you know, the Coiner Office, you know, in New York City, getting married, having the kids, the, you know, and kind of chasing all of these external things, thinking that that's where I'm going to be get satisfaction. And while there were so many wonderful things along the way, I think like many people I just found myself saying, hmm, this doesn't feel as good as I thought it was going to feel when I, when I signed up for this. And I just began the process of slowly changing and creating the life that I desire. And when I say slowly, I mean we're fast forwarding many, many years and really getting to the point of living, as you said, like just true to who I am and not who I thought I needed to be, you know, being in corporate and especially, you know, the kind of environment that we were in, right? JP Morgan and, you know, you're at a big commercial bank. And so in any institution that we're part of, right? Whether it's families or our community organizations or a job, there were expectations about how we look, you know, what we're wearing, how we show up, what we say and what we don't say and all of that. And it just became so ingrained in me, just kind of this chameleon of like, how do I need to be and show up and what does it mean to be a wife and a mother and, you know, an HR executive, whatever company I happen to be at. And really slowly, I started to just shed some of that and really uncover like who's really me. And at that point, I was in a second marriage, not feeling satisfied in the relationship. I was had just been laid off from my executive position as head of talent management for the whole America's region due to a merger. And that moment when I was packing up my office to leave was in a way it was like, oh my God, you know, fear is set in. But in a way, I was like, there was this whisper of like relief. And I was I was curious but not curious enough. But I now in hindsight, I look back and I'm like, something was going on there. And that was in 2017. And at the time I scrambled to get another corporate job because that was all I knew my whole sense of security in life from all of the conditioning in my upbringing was that sense of safety and financial stability was corporate job and being married. And so then the corporate job was was a way just gone like that. And it just allowed me to kind of to start exploring that. And so I did get another corporate job, but I promised myself at the time that I was going to get a coaching certification when I went back. So I had to know you wanted to do that, like talk a little bit about more about the like those whispers of discontent and or it's, you know, guidance. Like I said, you should be next because I think a lot of people and I've certainly been in the situation. It's like, you kind of on some level know you're misaligned, but it's like, it's different to kind of feel that. And then to get from there to actually taking a step, actually doing something differently because so some of the stuff you were saying before, I'm already equal safety. So we do what we've always done. So, you know, it's interesting. It was, and this is where I, what I think is so helpful for people about hearing the whispers, right, what your intuition, your inner wisdom versus what fear is offering you. So it was as simple as walking my dog, running into a neighbor, having a conversation where she told me, oh, I just got a coaching certification. And she was a social worker. And she told me she just got a coaching certification. And it just kind, I kind of went, oh, coaching, that sounds good. And here's the hearing the whisper. And I also think of it as following the breadcrumbs. So in my role, so I was always on the leadership development and, you know, organizational development change side of HR. So I never did the comp and the, you know, HR business partner side of it. And so what I knew I always loved the days that felt effortless at work were the days that I was coaching and facilitating workshops, which I look at as group coaching. And those were the days that I would leave work and, and think to myself, I can't believe I'm getting paid for this. This is amazing. I was completely in flow. It didn't matter how I was feeling when I walked in the door in the morning, the minute I got into that interaction with people and really supporting people's growth. people's growth, it's what people call flow, right? where you're just so in the zone that it feels effortless. And so I think that was the thread throughout my career. But of course we know every job has multiple things, and it's not always doing that one thing every day. And I think when I heard my neighbor mention coaching, I just went, I wanna be doing more of that. And so it helped me reflect on like, what are the things that I just love to do? And how can I do more of that? - And I think that's so important, because you've said so much there, but I just wanna kind of hit on a couple of points. Like sometimes it just takes the neighbor saying something, you run into someone, you see something online, and when you notice that, and it kind of like hits you in a certain kind of way, and you're like, wow, that sounds good. To me, those are like, you know, divine inspirations. Those are like, you're into it. It's, or just somehow, you know, their message is to be like, this is something you should look into more. And so often I think there are things that we want in our life. And sometimes we feel like, oh, I can't want that. That's too much. Or you know, we don't even give our ourselves permissions to want it. But I view that and coach my clients that it's like, that is literally like, it's a bit of a reason. That's like, to me, you know, your spirit, your soul kind of talking to you like, it's showing you the way. And to your point about flow. And you were really, you know, in many respects in a good situation from the standpoint of, in a job that hit on a number of things you were really good at and talented at. And I've seen you as a facilitator and as coach and whatnot. And so for you to have those moments of flow, but then later on at least, if not even earlier, the content, you outgrew the context in which you were doing it. Like sometimes we're doing some of what we love. And then it keeps us there for a while or we kind of like keep on keeping on. But like, it's like, sometimes we then get to point and we outgrow that. I don't know. I mean, you said a lot here. It's very, it's very helpful. And I know a lot of people who find themselves in the same situation. Yeah. And I, you know, and I like the way you drew out sort of the, this plotline there for your listeners, right? And anybody who's thinking really either the situation I'm in in my career is just, I can't continue. You know, it's just, you know, it's, it's New York for five days a week, you know, like whatever it is, commute like, yeah. And so, and as you said, I was lucky that I did land in a career that, that did have elements of what was really true to me. And, and also had I not, I probably would have been a stronger push or pull sooner. Yeah. And because you're more out of alignment. So like it's harder to stay. That's right. But it's interesting in your book. You talked about how, when you graduated from college, you were looking to be a brokerage assistant or something like that or you were going to your first job. The financial side and it like you quickly, the inner is kind of quickly redirected you, you know, to where you're meant to be. And so you use the word luck. But in a lot of ways, you listened. You didn't protest and like, continue on a path that wasn't meant for you. You kind of listened and went to. Well, that's right. Yeah. I had interviewed for the job in, it was training and development or learning and development at the time. And I just, they weren't ready to make a job offer. I had interviewed for another job as a brokerage assistant and they made an offer. And I did, and here's the other thing. It's taking an action, a small action on whatever that message is that you're getting. Like in my heart, I knew that the job in training and development was a better fit, more lined for me. Right. And I made the first, I called the hiring manager back at Chase and asked, you know, like I said, you know, I have another offer, is there any chance? So I did overcome my fear of rejection or, you know, whatever was going on with Sheila at 22 years old. But I overcame that I called. They said they weren't ready to make a decision. I took the other job. I started the other job two weeks later. And on the first day, I just knew like what I felt was a misalignment during the interview process was just confirmed tenfold. And this was a long time ago. This was before we all had cell phones. And I just remember on my first break, I went to the payphone and the lobby and I called, I called Chase again. And I said, I know I told you I took another job, but I really want to work for you. And so please let me know, you know, if there's an opportunity. And then a couple of weeks later, I got the call. So, so it's, I think that, you know, it's interesting because people talk about being intuitive for, you know, manifesting or whatever. But the truth is, we're all intuitive. We all get those signals and we're manifesting all the time. The point is about being intentional and the way to be intentional is to slow down enough to listen and be able to discern, is this fear talking, which drives us to what's familiar and comfortable? PS, my older sister had had her first job as a brokerage assistant. - Interesting. Yeah, yeah, how often is it like in families? By the way, we must really be on the same wavelength 'cause I was just gonna take the dialogue there. Not only are we like wearing the same color, which was not coordinated. This is like not a team like Jersey kind of thing. But I was just gonna say to you, and now I've kind of lost my train of thought. That's my ADHD. But the familiarity, the safety, you know, and you talk a lot. Oh, I know what it was. The manifesting, we're manifesting all the time. And it's like what are, you know, being aware of our thoughts. You talk in your book and a number of different parts about meeting each of your husbands. You talked about it a bit, you know, like with jobs up. But like this concept of safety and to your point, I 100% agree, we all have intuition. It's just sometimes we don't slow down enough to hear it. And there's just so much noise. Noise from our egos, noise from what we should do, noise from all the expectations and conditioning laid on us from others and from our upbringing. But can you talk a little bit about like you're, you can talk from your experience or how to coach clients, but that like concept of like you need to make a decision and safety and familiarity. And how do you know like what's really right for you and like just talk about that whole concept kind of? - Yeah, well, the first thing that whenever I work with my clients is understanding how our mind works. And that's what gets you there. So understand that for we have 60, our mind produces 60 to 70,000 thoughts per day. 95% of them at least are repetitive. And 75% of them are negative because this all comes more subconscious and the survival instinct, which comes from our reptilian brain, which is only interested in keeping you safe and alive. It doesn't care how fulfilled you are, how aligned you are, how much joy you feel on any given day, safe and alive, safe and alive and it's employee of the month every month. And so, I mean, I picture it going to be like, what are you talking about? Look, you're safe, you're alive. Why are you demoting me? But the other piece of that is that because of the time that this part of our brain developed, familiarity, meant safety and stay in a life. So you needed to know if that berry was going to nourish you or kill you or the animal that's around the corner or whatever. And so understanding that all of these thoughts and the negativity bias is part of safety, right? It's like, let's look out for threats. Let's look out for threats. And so once you understand that, you start to be able to discern what's fear, which of course your mind is way knows that you're way too smart to fall for, oh my god, you're going to die if you apply for that new job. And so what does it do? It throws up resistance instead. And it knows you really well. So it's going to throw up just the right resistance for you. Is it self-worth? Is it perfectionism? Is it, you know, whatever it is? And so you need to be, you need to get quiet enough and with yourself to feel the difference. So to me, because I could ask that question a lot, like how do you tell the difference between fear and your intuition? And fear is loud and urgent, you know? It's like, "Shouty capitals," you know? like. Right. Oh, no, do this, do this. And your intuition or your inner wisdom, however you like to think about it, it's quiet. And it's I describe it as a knowing. It's like you just know it. And there's no urgency around it. There's no screaming around it. So it's a lot quieter. And that's the challenge that most of us have. Because we were raised and certainly today we are living in a world that we have every means available to us 24/7, 165 days a year to distract us from just being with ourselves. And so every time you pick up your phone and you're scrolling, you watch the news on TV, you read the news online, you're, you know, you're engaging in this unconscious way. You're getting a little drip of cortisol, you know, which, so you have this low hum of the fight or flight response in the background, like all the time. And so many of us don't realize that. And one of the things that activates that fight or flight response, which is so interesting is not being authentic and not being in a group. I've never heard it said that way before. Same more about that. So because your brain somehow knows it's not you. And so you're like, yeah, because you're not in congruence, right? Your heart and your mind. And you were, you know, in the reason that I, you know, my, I called my book, The Power of Living Unscripted, is I was thinking about it as, you know, we live life as though we're actors in a play. And so there's our true essence, right? The actor is who they are. But they step into character, right? And the character says things in a certain way, they, they, they're handed a script, right? And they, so they're not saying what's truly on their heart, right? You're saying what's in the script. And then you kind of know what the other person's going to say, because that's part of it too, right? And then you, everything about it, it's how you dress and the scenery and what you're surrounded by and, and all of that. And the more you were being less authentic to what's truly in your heart, the more dysregulated you are, because that low hum is your nervous system, saying it's not safe to be you. And you're acting in a way that's not in congruence, right? Couldn't meditate and all that. But then you go back into the world and you're being someone other than just who you are. Yeah. It's reacting to this message that it's not okay to be who you are. And like figure it out, prove yourself to be worthy. Yeah. That rings so true to me. And I'm sure it would ring true to my listeners as well. And it's, you know, I didn't realize until after I left corporate exactly how dysregulated I was. And most of the time, I mean, I probably realized it at some point and I found mindfulness along the way. And that sort of seemed to me. But like, I felt like mindfulness then could just help me stay in the incredibly demanding environment that probably didn't fit me in certain ways. Well, it's sort of me in the moment. And I learned a ton and I wouldn't be where I am today without having gone through that. It's all part of the journey. But it like, you know, it just got to the point like you like, it's no longer fits. And I know a lot of people in that situation, can you talk a little bit about being in that in between? You kind of know to like, you're listening to intuition or what's coming up for you, you're realizing that you want to make a change. Maybe you're scared, you're probably scared. But do you, you know, how do you navigate that and deal with that in between? You know, and how do you connect kind of like with a vision of what's next? Yeah. Because I know a lot of people who like, especially last year, it's like a year of stripping and they're kind of stepping out of things and releasing old stuff, whether it be jobs, relationships, whatever. But they're not like yet in the new identity or the new, whatever it is. And that's really uncomfortable for a lot of people. Absolutely. Yeah. I can totally relate to that. I mean, I still live in that. And, you know, it, what's interesting, again, going back to the title of my book, which was a very, very intense, thank you, which was very intentionally selected. I did not say write a new script or write a different script. It's the power of living unscripted. So in this day and age, and it, I feel like it just accelerates year after year. We are, we're living in a world of almost constant uncertainty, right? There's upheaval everywhere. And I, when I'm seeing our leaders who are trying to, like, wait it out for stability. And stability is not coming. And so the idea, so how do you get through that, you know, the messy middle, number one is visualization being pulled by your vision. And, and the other thing is having that quiet and those practices to turn inward and then take the next aligned step. Because I think another thing that the, you know, your mind is doing another part of resistance is it's lying to you and telling you, you have to make this huge leap. Put your job tomorrow. You know, you have to quit your job tomorrow. You'll, you'll end up, you know, not being able to pay your mortgage, whatever. That is not truth. And so by doing the work, by learning, by regulating your nervous system, by being fully expressed, meaning being authentically you, feeling your feelings, you know, that's why affirmations, PS don't work. Because when you're just going like, I am common, affluent and, you know, whatever, it's like your nervous system's going, oh, you're not, you know, and so regulating your nervous system. Yeah. And, and you have to regulate your nervous system to calm down that fear response. And enough to hear. And when you're pulled by that vision and, and visualization is fantastic. Because your mind doesn't know the difference between what's imagined and what's real. And if you're thinking that's some woo woo stuff, A, it's science and B, try checking in on the top athletes, you know, Olympic athletes, professional athletes. They use visualization. And there are multiple studies that show that people's performance improves by just visualizing as much as others in a control group improved by actually hands on practice. And so that vision and, and, you know, we talked about before we, we got on to record this about identity, right? And it, so that's the work is stepping into that identity that lives in your vision and making decisions from that identity, not from the old identity, because the old identity is going to keep wanting to pull you back to what's familiar. And you're already, you already know that that wasn't working for you. So how do you step into making the day to day aligned decisions and actions based on that new identity that's grounded and calm and congruent, authentic? And, well, all of the things that you would like to be feeling on a daily basis that you're not feeling today. And so going back to what do you do in that messy middle is you, you know, I look at it as you have this big goal, right? And we talk about setting hairy audacious goals and, you know, all of that, right? But it's really about who you're becoming and what's the process? So if that goal is, I want to completely shift into a different career. So you know, you remember we used to do project plans, right? In corporate, right? So you do the, you do the project plan, you have this huge goal. And I, you know, most of my career, I was leading massive culture transformation for big organizations. And so you kind of back into that, right? It's, okay, one year at a time, one quarter at a time, one month at a time. And you focus on the process, the excellence in the process. So what are the things that you repeatedly do every day? Which is why atomic habits is one of my favorite books. You know, what are the things that you do every day that you're, you're gaining that excellence in the process that's going to lead you to that goal? And so I didn't quit my job and get a coaching certification. I got to court the next corporate job. I promised myself that once I landed and settled, I would get the coaching certification. In 2019, I got the coaching certification. I started building coaching more into my life because also, I think, for a lot of people, it's a process of exploration of what would really, what would that look like? And so sometimes it's, how do I build more of what I want and what feels aligned into my life? So, I know that was a really long answer to it, but it was a wisdom-packed answer. So it's hitting on so many things. And I think, and I love what you said, I forget how you said it, but what was going through my mind when, just before you said it, it's like, it's the thoughts we think and the things we do consistently every day. And so when you're stepping into that identity, like breaking it down and, and you taught me, you know, like, well, what would she do, you know? And, and kind of then you do that and also recognizing that it takes some practice because the neural pathways in our brain, the behaviors that we're used to going to, that as automatic, the thoughts we're used to going to as automatic, they like, been there for a long time, probably, and you've been doing it for a long time. So those neural pathways are like really well-worn and like really like solid. And so it takes repetition and just continuing to go back to it to kind of get to that new identity, but then hooking to that vision, hooking to that, you know, like what does that look like? It is super important because that's what's going to keep you connected and then making those choices again and again, even when you fall off. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember hearing years ago, we're seeing a quote on a poster about leadership, just, and I forgot the full thing, I think it might have been Aristotle or someone, never remembering the name, but I just remember the gist of it was excellence is what we do. You know, like it's the, it's formed by the habits, right? And so, and you know, what we covered when we worked together was the thought loop, right? So you have whatever thought, and this is how, you know, people say change your mind, change your life like this is how it actually works. This is the how of it, which is really simple, whatever you are thinking, you know, it's, if you're thinking it's impossible for me to switch careers, for example. And then that leads to how you're feeling, you're feeling trapped, you're feeling hopeless, you're feeling disempowered. That those feelings then lead to behaviors. So if you're feeling, if you think it's impossible for me to change my career, it is impossible for you to change your career. And that's another quote that I forget who it's attributed to, which is whether you think you can or you can't, you're right. Henry Ford, I love that quote. The people who I'm coming across today and they out, there's a lot of, oh, I would love to do this, but it's not realistic. I would love to do this, but I have a family to support. I can't pay the bills. And so, you know, I just think what you're saying is so important. And I talk about it with my clients all the time because it's like, yeah, if that's your starting point, if that's how you're conceiving of this, if that's the filter you're running everything through, then you're right, like you're not going to be able to get there, but you can choose and not, you know, that's right. And then so then what happens is so the thoughts lead to the feelings, the feelings lead to the behaviors and whatever, you know, the behaviors, if you think that it is possible for you to change careers or be more satisfied in your career, you'll be doing different things, maybe exploring things, maybe taking a class, then interest you and versus not doing anything, just numbing yourself and continuing to be able to tolerate where you are. And then those behaviors lead to your results. And so if you're not doing anything, you will then reinforce because the mind loves the confirmation bias. You see? I was right. So then you're making no movement towards having a more fulfilling career. And so that's kind of how the thought loop works. So that's the how behind change your mind, change your life people. It is, you know, like I'm very big on teaching the how, right, that, you know, it sounds great to say change your mind, change your life, but it's like how? And how does that work? And it's just basic, as you said, it's basic brain science, it's repetition, it's, you know, it's just understanding that just that you can create, you can control the thoughts you think. For me, that was the mind blowing, what, revelation, I am not my thoughts. Like I am a being who has a brain that produces 60 to 70 thoughts a day. And remember those thoughts are repetitive. So where are they coming from? They're coming from your subconscious. They're coming from the past. And there's another saying to come, if you keep doing what you've always done, you're going to keep getting what you always got. And so, and then my other failure, I'm just full of quotes today, which is the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Yeah. There's a reason I ever saw a lunch. These are all like some of my favorite quotes, right, with my clients all the time. And so the, so how do you, so can you give some advice or some wisdom in terms of how you interrupt that because you talked in your book, you talked about in your book, some of the limiting beliefs you had, you know, and things you got from growing up. And then you talked about, and so, and then you have now allowed yourself to get quiet, which also in your book, you talked about being uncomfortable with that. And I know a lot of people who like, either they don't think they have a choice to slow down because there's such a time scarcity kind of mindset or is uncomfortable sometimes to be along with your thoughts. That's right. So, how do you like interrupt the cycle so that you can get quiet, so that you can understand what are those repetitive thoughts and you can choose a new way forward? Yeah. You know, again, it's like one little step at a time. I insist that my clients do some form of meditation or contemplative practice. And when people tell me like, I, by the way, I was number one, like, I can't meditate. Yeah. It's too active. I have ADHD. I can't even know whatever, which I didn't even know at the time until just a year ago, but, and I resisted it for so long because I was judging myself. And so when I would sit down to try to meditate, my thoughts were bing, bing, bing all over the place. I think I call it monkey mind or monkey brain. And then I was judging myself. And, you know, here's the time that I'm supposed to be getting quiet and all Zen and I'm literally going, what's the matter with you? You can't even like keep your mind from like wandering for 30 seconds. What's, you know? And so, and then when I finally in, in 2019 and 2020, I really started exploring meditation more and learning from meditation teachers that their mind wanders to. These are like gurus, you know, teaching meditations for 40 years and I'm like, wait, what? And the idea that that's the point is that your mind wanders, you notice. So that's, and this is, I'm using this as an answer to your question, right? So how do you get quiet enough? You notice what's going on when your mind is like, no, I can't, so you're reaching for your phone and you notice it. But the most important thing after that is that you notice it without judgment. And that's the definition of mindfulness, right, is, is really being present and without judgment, you know, and so that non-judgment is really key. So you just go, oh, my, there's, there's my thoughts wandering. You make it safe. And so how do we do that? Breathing is my favorite go to whatever form of box breathing, you know, in for four, hold for four, out for four, hold for four, do that three times. And then your mind is going, I don't have time for that. Guess what? It takes 30 seconds. And I start to get almost like have a relationship with that part of me that's telling me, like, and it's like, really, come on. You don't have 30 seconds. You know, so, and then, and then asking yourself, you know, the, what would she do, or what is that version of me, or he is, what is that version of me who has that calm sense of groundedness and safety and peace and joy, what, what would she or he do? And so then you make, you make a decision based on that. And I tell, like, with something like meditation, I tell my clients, they're like, oh, I can't sit there for, you know, hours. I'm like, start with five minutes, set the timer on your phone. phone for five minutes, take a few rounds of box breathing, and then just count your breath every time you breathe in and out, it's one, count up to 10, start again. And before you know it, you've lost count and you're in it. So, and the way I like to think about this is it's just like going to the gym, like to build muscle. You're building a muscle, and so you go to, you don't go to the gym once and expect to have a six pack, although I think some people expected to have been, you know, by January 20th, which is why the gym's empty out after, after the New Year's resolution wears off. So the first thing is awareness to notice and not push through, that's the biggest one. We have been trained to push through and ignore it. So notice it, pause, don't push through, make it safe, do some breathing, connect with that vision, and then whatever it tells you, just do one thing. And sometimes that's just taking that action, just stopping and pausing and breathing for a moment and reconnecting is the thing. Yeah, because it regulates your nervous system. That's right. And I think, you know, when we were talking before about, you know, this idea of like, how do you not go into this freeze state, you know, when we're faced with, you know, because you're talking about two things, I think two different areas of people may be pursuing a new career. Number one could be, I'm just not feeling really motivated and something stirring, and I want to make a change, or people who involuntarily find themselves unemployed and needing to make a change. And so with any of life's challenges, and this is actually one of the key notes that I've been delivering, is about how do you thrive and transform through life's challenges? And I've been talking a lot lately about curiosity. And so how do you look at whatever happens in your life with curiosity, rather than fear? And so this is, we call this possibility thinking, but in the face of uncertainty, right, your job situation is changing. For me, there was the health situation, the day I had a breast cancer diagnosis, I had a choice. And everyone has a choice when faced with a challenge. So life is going to be happening. The challenges are not stopping. The uncertainty is not stopping. These days, when I connect with people who are still in corporate, I'm finding even more and more, there's that uncertainty, right, AI and new regulations and global markets and all of that. So I think that the ability to remain curious during this uncertainty is what opens up all the doors for you. So yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. How can people think about that? Because I, I mean, I swear, we're like on the same wavelength today because that was about to just go and ask you about the curiosity and uncertainty piece because I know this is like a big part of your message and it's so important. But, you know, how can people get curious in those situations and obviously the uncertainty, you know, it's always hard because it is unfamiliar and because you feel like you don't have control. So we have the solution of control, and I've talked about this before, so you can talk about that. But the, and also, especially with like, to your point, corporate and it changing, you know, I think years ago, I used to feel like corporate was safe, being in a corporate job with safety, just like you said, being in a corporate job and being married, didn't do the married part. And the, you know, how do we, how do we look at these challenges with curiosity instead of being stuck in the fear of being unsafe? And well, I'll just leave it there. So what, yeah, what can people do? Because I think this is so important and I know you, you know, and maybe you want to talk a little bit more about your journey and with breast cancer and how you navigate it that. And so, first of all, I want to make it clear that if, in the moment that you get some devastating news to switch to what I'm going to talk about, is not going to happen immediately and don't expect it to. I had done the work, you know, around the science and spirituality of change. And so this, you know, it was, and when I say spirituality, it's the energetics, the, you know, the emotions, all of this. And so when I got the diagnosis, like I was on the phone with the doctor getting the news, and my mind went, huh, I wonder why this is on my journey right now. Yeah. What am I meant to learn from this? Yeah. I just want to stop you right there because that in and of itself, first of all, I don't think many people would be in a situation where that's like immediately where they're mine. That's right. It shows how all the work you did up until that point helped put you in that space. And, but that's the question, you know, isn't that interesting? Why is this on my journey? Now, what's the normal thing that most people would naturally and understandably go to? Because why is this happening to me? That's right. So, I love that that's where you immediately went. So, say more about that because that's what I think so many of us can benefit from whatever it is. It doesn't have to be breast cancer. It could be whatever it is, but like just, yeah, well, you know, it's interesting because I look at everything that happens to us in life as an opportunity to learn and grow. And I learned to stop judging situations as good or bad. And because life is going to happen to us anyway, it's like I had a choice of going through the, it turned out to be six months between, you know, surgery and treatment, miserable, depressed, why, with that, why me. And so, now, so, a bit of mentality and it could have been a miserable, but it was winter. By the way, just to put this also into context for people who don't know my story and haven't read my book yet, that this was five months after leaving a marriage. So my second marriage ended and this was five months later. And I was living alone in New York City in the winter during COVID. So the diagnosis was, yeah, is that the trifecta or the, whatever 20 or 20, 20, 20, 20, 21. Okay. Yeah. And so, yeah. And it happens like that often times. It does. It's like the universe throws these things in your path. And I love how you're like, why is this on my journey? Because it throws, it puts us in a path to get us to where we're meant to be. That's right. That doesn't feel like that in the moment. It doesn't feel like that in the moment. And I get it. I totally get the feelings and, you know, the natural response. But I guess I had just learned that I have a choice. And I immediately, like the next day, I started writing a thank you letter to breast cancer. And it started, it started as more of like an inquiry and it turns into a thank you. So it was like literally talking to the tumor, going, first of all, realizing this is my, something in my body, that it's part of me, something about me created this. And so it was, it wasn't like, oh, I hate you get out of here. Like I never, it never sat with me this idea of, you know, fighting cancer or battling cancer or F cancer, which was like a really, it was a great organization raising funds for women who had a breast cancer, but it never sat right with me. So and you know from our, from basic change management is when you push against something, it pushes back, right? And so I really looked at it, I was like, okay, we both know you don't belong in my body. And I know it's my job to figure out why you're here and, you know, help you go away. And yeah, and, and so, and I think the other piece, so you mentioned before this, you know, why is this happening to me? So I think of life as, and what happens is this is happening for me. And then the next level of that is life is happening through me. So here is this experience for me to learn something, to grow and expand. And I made the choice to transform on the other side. And so a lot of people, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm like, I'm like, you know, I people end up transforming, like you always hear stories right about people talking about how they transformed from some sort of big challenge or, you know, life situation, whether it was a job loss, their own illness, illness of someone else, someone passing away, something traumatic. And eventually, if I think anyone looking back at it will say, like writing that thank you letter to like what you learned, what you got out of that, of the most challenging situations and people in life. So I think most people eventually come to that realization, right, that the challenge is kind of what stretches us, you know, outside of that comfort zone, it forces us to not be unconscious. And so for me, it is the decision of how am I going to, how do I choose to get through this? I have six months of treatment ahead of me. I had, you know, multiple times during treatment that, you know, first they told me I was only going to need radiation and then I go back in January to meet with the surgeon and she tells me that based on the biopsy they did of the tumor, I actually needed radiation. And so this is not like, I just, I don't want people to think, oh, this was an easy journey and everything was smooth sailing. This is about how I chose to react to each thing. And another talk that I've given and workshop that I've done is healing in the mind. And so for, for me, it was about I knew that by staying in the state of curiosity and choosing to feel safe and guided and blessed throughout this journey, you know, I could have come out maybe in the same place at some point in my life, but instead I had six months that was filled with ease and calm and even joy. And so, you know, when I was in, when I was getting chemo, you know, they would have a chaplain that would go around talking to people for, you know, comfort and spiritual guidance. And I'm talking, I'm talking to the chaplain and telling him, I think this was put on my path for a reason. And I think it's going to help me really help other people, you know, deal with challenges in life or whatever. The man thanked me, you know, for sharing that because he's spending his day, you know, with people who are really despondent and, you know, and upset. And, you know, and again, going, and I want to loop this back to what you raised, which was around emotions. This does not mean that I was like, woo-hoo, dancing through winter during COVID, going immunocompromised. And, and also even though my daughters lived nearby, that was a time that people were still wearing masks, people they would have to isolate and test in order to come and even spend time with me. So, it wasn't like I had regular company. But so there wasn't, it wasn't that there weren't emotions. And again, light that I will label as negative because I think that's one of the problems that we have is that we label, we've labeled emotions. Those are the good ones, those are the bad ones. And by the way, not your fault, how many times when you were a kid where you told, put a smile on your face, don't cry or, you know, it's, you know, you shouldn't feel angry or, you know, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it or, you know, whatever. And so we were trained to not feel what we're labeled as negative emotions. I don't look at any emotions as negative or positive. So again, coming back to this theme of non-judgment. So I had moments where, you know, I cried, I, you know, felt lonely, it wasn't fun going through all the treatment and surgery and, and managing, you know, the symptoms. But what, what also is important to know is to feel your feelings because otherwise, if they get stuck and then you're not in that coherence. And so that's why affirmations and this, you know, false positivity, almost use, even using meditation to like circumvent feeling your feelings, like let me just meditate myself back into regulation. So I don't have to feel what's like trying to tell me something, you know, your emotions are there to tell you something and they're meant to be felt. But going through that journey, like I didn't feel alone, even though I spent 99% of my time alone in my apartment. And that was a winter. I mean, I, I was literally saying, you know, okay, if it's above 20 degrees today, I'm taking a walk, like that's how cold it was. But, but I think knowing that you have the choice and letting go of this isn't fair, how could they do this to me? How, you know, and accepting, you know, the first step to change is accepting what is and not exciting against it, accepting what is. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that my healing journey, like I didn't have all the side effects that people get from going through chemo and radiation. I healed very quickly. And about two weeks before I was done with treatment, done with radiation, which was the last part of treatment, I should go back. So 2018, I visited LA for the first time. I stood at the end of Montana Street in Santa Monica and I got a knowing, which is how I describe it, that said, oh, I'm going to live here one day. And this was back when I was buried and living in New Jersey at the time and my daughters were in New York. And I tucked it away. And just knowing that I would be taking the next aligned action, I didn't have to try or figure it out. So now fast forward, it's 2022. I have two weeks of treatment left. One of my daughters calls me and tells me that she got an opportunity to interview for a job in LA. And if she took the job, if she got it and took it, would I relocate with her? And so immediately, I said, of course, and she wants you to. Yeah, yeah. And she's independent and lives alone and now and all that. But yeah, but I think also she knew, I must have shared with her, wow, I just visited and I got this knowing, which was a few years before. But again, it's that sort of that trusting yourself, more than you trust other people. So that's a mitetics was called self trust and transformation, which was about my journey from trusting other people more than I trusted myself. And so that's a big part of this is the self trust. And then two months after I finished treatment, I packed up my apartment in New York City and I moved across the country. And I live in Santa Monica and I actually live on across the street from the beach now. And during the course of that move, I mean, I continued my corporate job for a bit. And then about, I don't know, a year and a half ago that ended, I had gotten another sort of vision about writing a book. People kept telling me tell your story, tell your story. Oh, in the beginning of 2024, in the first six months, I wrote a book and I did I did the TEDx. And I've just been again, it's trusting and trusting like I moved across the country two months after finishing treatment for breast cancer with this calm sense of knowing that I would be okay. And that's what curiosity comes in, right? It's not, it's the ability to stay open to possibilities. Instead of shutting ourselves off. So that's so important. And I know from what, you know, from conversations we've had too, you know, because you were in that mindset and because of all the work you've done, you also, you had a lot of tools and you also gave yourself permission to take care of yourself during that time. So as much as it was a horrible thing to go through, I sense that there was something nurturing about it also because you would do, you know, your chronic healer sessions and your, you know, all the things I think you did, right? Like, yeah. So, and I feel like, and I've seen him up this earlier today, you know, so often, we're just in the spiral, like everything going on in the busyness and everything. And like, I just would love people that just like, what's one thing you can do to take care of yourself? And I can tell you it's not having a glass of wine or something else. It's just going to numb you out or watch Netflix or whatever. But it's like, you really took care of yourself. Right. And, you know, if you had had that diagnosis five years before, ten years before, would you have not only would you probably not be in a position to approach it with the curiosity that you did and the acceptance that you did. But you know, you you probably, I don't know, what do you think? Like you probably wouldn't have been quite as equipped. - That's right. - Well, and again, we're so conditioned to have that stress response. When we hear something or experience something that feels like a threat to our nervous system, we, it's automatically cortisol and adrenaline because that's basically the threats when that part of the brain developed used to be physical. Right, so, you know, you needed the cortisol and the adrenaline to like fight or run away. That's why they call it a flight response. And so I can tell you that back in 2017, when I got the news that my position was eliminated during a merger, I honestly had a worse reaction to that than I did to a breast cancer diagnosis. And at that time, I was married, was living in a house that was paid off, that, you know, I wasn't a sole source of income. So, you know, a lot of, I went into full on, I have to get another job, I have to get a corporate job, I have to get a corporate job. And so that's why I share the story about breast cancer because it, like, I would say most people would agree that getting a cancer diagnosis is more challenging in the overall scheme of things than a job loss or, you know, any kind of health crisis. And yet, by doing this work, by learning how to regulate my nervous system, by learning how to be fully expressed so that my nervous system remains regulated. And by the way, one thing that I think is an interesting misnomer about nervous system regulation that I just want to correct, having a regulated nervous system does not mean that you're in the parasympathetic state all the time, rest and digest, right? So we have the sympathetic, you know, fight or flight, the parasympathetic, and the goal is not to be in parasympathetic all the time because we'd just be, you know, sitting on a park bench, you know, smiling and, you know, so it's really about that flexibility and dexterity in our nervous system so that our ability when we go into that something triggers fight or flight, how can we reduce the intensity of it? How long we stay there and how often it happens? So what we're looking for is kind of the state in between, right where we have, we're not in full parasympathetic 'cause that's really just your body's repairing, you're resting and all of that and we don't live a life like that. But how do we find that state in the middle where we just have enough of that stress, they call it eustress, e-u-s-t-r-e-s-s, which is the good stress, yeah. And so that's like the good stress, like where, which is the kind that kind of motivates us and gets us excited and, you know, and has us, you know, work consistently towards a goal. So this is not about, well, G-sheel, if I want to be like that, do I have to go, you know, be a monk, you know, meditating on a mountain or sitting in my apartment by myself in New York City. So that's, you know, so it's really about having more flexible and sort of agile nervous system. - Right. - I'm glad that you made that clarification, I think that was important. - Yeah, yeah, well, because I can imagine, especially people like you and me who were, you know, being in corporate where there is a feeling of constant pressure, right? And other people's expectations and goals and deadlines and there's no time to stop and rest and just understanding that rest, and as you mentioned with my breast cancer journey, taking care of yourself is a strategy for success. And I think that, so for me, one of the things that is in my thank you letter to breast cancer was, I really learned, I changed my relationship with my body. I didn't look at it as something that needed to perform, you know, work harder, look better, do the, you know, and I looked at it instead as like, what is it telling me? And what do I need to do to take care of it and listen to it? - Love that, even if you don't have cancer, I mean, like to think of your body that way. - Yeah. - That's so enlightening and beautiful. - But think about it, how many times do people, you know, you feel that stress, that feeling in the pit of your stomach, the tightness, you're getting headaches and migraines or whatever, and you just push through 'cause it's all, you know, how to do, it's all you've been taught, it's all that is being reinforced around you and realizing that rest is a strategy and also your personal wellbeing, your physical, emotional, spiritual wellbeing are requirements for your long-term sustained success. They want to sacrifice. Your wellbeing is not to sacrifice for your success. And so I feel like that's a paradigm shift, a huge paradigm shift, and I, people are talking about it now, more than they did back in RJP Morgan days. - Oh, totally. - People are talking about it more, but I think people still, you know, and if they're still in very intense environments, like that, which there's a place for that. - Yeah. - They'll grappling with how to do it. - That's right. - And, I mean, 'cause I remember back in the day, I mean, there were times that I'm like, I don't even know when I'm gonna have time to go to the bathroom and grab lunch. Like, you know, and so-- - And when you say that, and now I say it, and I'm like, oh my God, that is crazy. Like, now they're just crazy that I thought that was normal and required. Like, but that's true. And I wasn't the only one, and so, but those are your basic needs. I mean, it's actually quite comical when you think about it. But-- - Well, and also, everyone else around you is doing it. - 100%. - And it's funny, because I think I always had a little bit of a, didn't make sense to me. Kind of reaction to that constant pressure and being in the state of like, you know, for something that was not, you know, solving world hunger, you know, but, you know, it never intuitively felt right to me. I always had a more laid back style. And early in my career, I actually got the message that people thought that I wasn't working, that I was on a, when I once got feedback very early in my career. My manager said that somebody had walked by my office and had said I was on a personal call. And I was like 22 years old, 23 years old at the time. I was like, when? And when she reminded me of when it was, I was actually on a call with a consultant. So 23 years old, I was put in charge of developing a whole clerical curriculum for the operation staff at Chase. I had no idea what, you know, what I was doing. I was getting coached on it and all that. But I was on the phone with a vendor for a program. And the result of that call was that the price got cut in half, but I was smiling and enjoying the conversation and laughing. - So they thought you're on a personal call. - So very early on in my career, I got the message that not feeling and acting urgent was interpreted as you're not taking this stuff seriously enough. - So we get the message from all around us. - I know, it's so true. And there's so much good stuff. I mean, I could ask you like 10 more questions and we could go on for another hour. But I think let's wrap with two final questions. One, I know you have done different programs. You have coached lots of people, including me. What's your view on how people should think about getting support if they are in kind of a state of transition and the power of either community or structure or accountability or help, like just talk a little bit about that. - Yeah, I mean, for me, it's so I'll always have a coach. And I think about coaching, like think about world class athletes who are like at the top of their game. They have coaches. So this is, you know, and I think coaching kind of got this wrap of like, oh, you need to fix something. It's not it's to help you support you to get to your next level to help you stay in that zone of that discomfort that comes from being out of your comfort zone. Because remember, you had a lot of support getting to exactly where you are today, where community is supporting and reinforcing that, where, you know, family did, the world around you. And so, and you mentioned it before, which is, we've habitually done the same thing over and over and we're trying to create new nerves. pathways, which it's going to be easier to go back to the pathway that's already, you know, been run. And so for me and community also, I mean, I love one-on-one coaching and it's incredibly, it's so powerful. And being in communities of people to support, who support your growth? Because as well-meaning and loving as your family and your friends are, there's a pretty good chance that they're still operating in that old paradigm. And so, you know, in, I heard an interview with James Clear, the author of Atomic Habits, and he was asked, "Well, out of all the habits, what is the most important thing?" And he said, "Who you surround yourself with?" True. Yeah. And when you're making that change, you're often with the people who would have reinforced the prior way of being. And so, to be around people who reinforce the next way of being. That's right. And it's, you know, it goes back to, you know, if somebody goes into a 12-step program, like the number one thing is, you don't go hang out with your drinking buddies, you know, and you don't hang out the bar. Right. So, you want to surround yourself with people, coaches, communities that are going to reinforce and also shine that light for you on that next version. Like, I see in my clients, I see that version of them. I shouldn't even say the next version. It's the real version. Once we get behind, I see it way before people see it. And so, to have a coach and a community that sees that and continues to shine that light for you until you see it yourself, I think, is the most important part. And reason why people should engage in coaching and communities that are supportive. And just, you know, look around you. You know, you know, when you go out with your friends, you know, is it a wine and bitch session and, you know, and all of that, or is it somebody or people who are calling you up to that next level? Yeah, it's so true. And I wish when I was going through a couple of my transitions in 2022 and 2023, I wish that I had found, I wish I found you then. I obviously found you later or reconnected with you later. But I mean, now I've created the Pathfinder experience, which is basically the program that I wish I had back then because, you know, it's, it just takes longer. It just took me longer. And I did a lot of meditation and a lot of soul searching and I'm a self-development junkie. But like, you know, it's, it's just, it's hard. And I know you've participated in a lot of things. You've coached me. You've also mentioned all their communities that I've found hugely helpful. So I just thought that was a valuable question to ask. And last question, if you were able to turn back time and, or not turn back time, but go back to a prior version of you, whatever age and give her a piece of advice from all the wisdom that you've gained, you know, what version of you would you go back to, sort of like, the stage of your life and what would you tell her? Hmm. I probably start pretty young at all stages for me. I think it started as a child and certainly throughout my life until I had this realization is trust yourself. And, you know, just show up as you and don't worry what other people think about you. Because when I think about how many things I limited myself from, from doing, because of what other people would think or say or, or do really trust to me is the biggest thing. Trust yourself more than you trust other people because, you know, you know, you know. Yeah, you know about, nobody knows better than you and you can't, nobody can do you better than you. Yeah, but I know, there's nobody like you, you know, nobody with that. Yeah, and it's, and also I think for me, it's also it's safe to be you. I think that's so important because I know for me and for people in my life and who I work with, that's kind of, that's kind of the core thing that I didn't feel safe to be fully expressed as you start earlier. It didn't feel safe to be fully you. And so then you go into the people pleasing or perfectionism or whatever it is. And you're trying to shape shift to, and I certainly did this, but to fit into different situations. And it's so much energy and it's so much exhaustion and like to your point or nervous system. And it's like, if we can just learn to trust ourselves and follow what we know is our truth, we can cut through a lot of that noise because nobody knows what's best for you better than you. And contrary to what we think when we're people pleasing or, you know, trying to be these different versions of ourselves, you're actually better able to influence other people positively when you're just you. So when you're in that version that's trying to figure out, you know, how to contort yourself and what you need to do, that energy is coming across to other people. And so in the way that your people pleasing, which is really an attempt to manipulate, right? How somebody else sees you and reacts to you. It's actually less of a service to the other person. Yeah. 100%. And actually, I learned that from you. I never heard it. I never heard it put quite that way before. And I was like, Oh, shit, that's like, you know, powerful. But yeah, you're trying to control your environment, control everything around you because of your fear. And lack of safety. And it just doesn't work. Right. And any any time you're doing something to when you're doing something. And if you're in any way going, I'm doing this to try to control someone else, someone else's reaction, someone else's actions, that's when you take a pause. Yep. And you realize that's not authentically me. No. And I have I have the ability to make a different choice. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Sheila, I am so excited that you came on the podcast. Thank you so much. I highly recommend you guys pick up a copy of Sheila's book, The Power of Living Unscripted. It is really, it's very powerful. And it's very real. And you probably got that from Sheila today. But she's got exercises in it that can help you think through some of the things that you're experiencing. And check out her TEDx talk as well. We can put the link in the show notes to that. Also, I just want to really thank you for being on the podcast. It's been brilliant having this conversation. I've learned so much from you. And I just, I think this will be really helpful for our listeners. Yeah. Thanks. I love all the conversations with you. But this is a good one. Beautiful. Well, thank you. Be well. And it's great to see you. Thanks. You too. Cheers. Bye. Bye.