Navigating the Investment Landscape: Insights from Financial Expert Stevie McCallum

Guys, I want to introduce you to somebody that's made me a lot of cash, see me a lot of tax on, allow me to collect a nice portfolio of assets that are going to set me on my family up for an incredible future. I wanted to meet Steve, you're my friend. Good. Thank you. The world is full of financial advisors. Most of them are full of shit. This is somebody that I picked the phone up to and ask questions about where do I put my money, when do I invest all that kind of stuff? And today we're going to talk about investing strategy and what to do with the profit that you make in your business, when to invest it, how to invest it. And essentially some really important principles are going to help you protect your capital, your time, your energy and most importantly, your life. Now, I want to paint the picture first and foremost. This is a very good chance that you're between the ages of 21, maybe 35, 30, it, you've got a business and you're in start up mode. IE, you've started getting customers, you started making money. You've maybe even started to hire your first team members. You've invested in yourself before and quite frankly, you're growing. Now, Steve, if I'm growing a business, there is always going to be an underlying back thought to where do I invest my money? I've got my current business, but I know that I should be putting some money away because buying assets is a good thing, buying hoses, buying property, stocks and shares, I said pension, NFTs. There's all this talk about where to invest your money. And it can confuse a lot of entrepreneurs. They just don't know who to trust, where to put it, what are the best fees, all of this kind of stuff. And I definitely find that it actually pulls people away from focusing on their mean thing. And my belief process is that nobody should invest a penny of their money into an asset outside themselves or their business because that's their mean area, value, their mean area of expertise. And it's ultimately the vehicle that's going to get them the fastest, the greatest returns out of everything. Cause I always look at the stock market or any good quality return as it percent as a good quality industry average. If it's a lot higher than that, there's a lot more risk in that. But in order to get that, it percent, what have we got to invest out of working capital in the business or in our personal lives in order to get that? So I look at it from the point of view, if somebody is in grow mode, they're working 40 hours per week, they've got money in the bank, they have a small team. I don't believe that they should be investing until they get to the business to a point where it's at a cop where they can't really grow it any further. And they've already carved out freedom for themselves with their team. And they've got the business at a very decent level of reputation and authority where it's, it's got the brand to generate customers and demand for itself. And I feel that people need to get their business to a point where it's at that before they start looking at investments because me putting 50K into a property, putting 20K into an isa 40K into a pension to get an 8% return is going to compromise the ability for me to maybe spend on marketing, to spend on a team member, to give me peace of mind, to allow me to work all my business, to give me advertising eyeballs, you know, all of these things bring a cost, but the return of them is so much higher, especially if it's in an area that one is extremely credible, an expert in has a reputation. I don't like people utilizing their capital and taking themselves away from that mean focus. So I want to kind of look at what would you advise somebody as a professional financial advisor in that case, what kind of lenses do we need to look at when it comes to investing when and then we'll talk about what to invest in a new course. Okay. So we're in complete agreement on everything that you just said there. If someone is a young entrepreneur, they're in their late 20s into the 30s, even in the early 40s, whether I died, you're single, most skillable, leverageable asset is yourself, your ability to earn and invest in your business. Yeah. You know, so if it's technology to simplify things to free up more of your time to bring in team members, leverage your skills from a cheap piece of software to Facebook ads to hiring somebody to do your sales, to producing some kind of front for your shop that's going to bring in more customers. Yeah. Absolutely. All of that. So Alex Ramose refers to the S&P versus the S&M. So he calls it the S&M investing in yourself. I think that way back, that's how we recently got talking. I put a post on social media. You were talking about how risky shares were. I disagreed. I went in with two feet on shares and then obviously we met over a huge disagreement. It's TV emailed me and then it was a back and forth a little bit of who are and then we can't arrive at the same place. Yeah, we arrived at the same place. So, I mean, if we assume that the skills box has been teched, if we assume that there's a coach or a mentor or some kind of peer group is in place to help people identify where those individual entrepreneurial shortcomings are, once they're addressed. Okay. Moving beyond there. One of the first things that a lot of people overlook and a lot of people on the rest of it is actually having a cash reserve or some kind of emergency fund. Yeah. So you've been clear before you said this and your podcast, you know, ideally six months in cash to cover every single expense. If all your customers left tomorrow, if you brought in no more business, could you survive for three or six or nine months? If the answer is no, that's going to be your first portal. It's a nice, I call it psychological buffer to know that if you were pulled in their family emergency, something went wrong, that you've six months of living, six months of business expense, you didn't need another client to come in. And that's really stress testing it. Yes. And, you know, for me, in my younger years, I, like I wanted 12 months. And I just looked at that as one extreme safety to, I looked at it as the ability to take advantage of distressed assets, whether it was team, whether it was advertising eyeballs, you know, for example, COVID was a prime example when advertising was extremely cheap. You know, I'd stockpiled a lot of cash. We applied that into advertising and really, you know, need colossal returns out of it. And so yeah, totally agree. The one thing that I would say as well is that I have a lot of clients that are in the online coaching space, the entrepreneurial space. I have a number of clients in the creative space, your ability to show up every single day and pour yourself into your company is by far away your biggest asset. If you don't have clients in the bank, if you have a high burn rate personal and business by burn rate, I mean, recurring spend, you have a lean week or a lean month, all of a sudden you're on shaky grind. Yeah. You know, so this goes and you'll know this if you have a bad sales week or a bad sales month, your psychology just completely distorts. And you start looking up often where you can cut rather than what you can invest. And it can really affect your performance. And I call it we call a bond with. Absolutely. So if you're running on thin margin or you're spending everything as it comes in a minute that you're hit with an emergency and time, that's when problems start to occur. So we want to do everything that we can to mitigate that to have some form of buffer or runway to operate and think our way through the problems or at least give us space to go and fix something in our family or our health, whatever it may be and then get back in the game. Absolutely. So if we're taking the skills box, yeah, skills have been taken care of, mentor, coach, etc. If we're taking the cash reserve box, so we're saying really six months, business expenses, that's wages, that's your salary, that's your team members salary, that's your technology, stack, etc. Those two boxes are teched. They are really on to other types of investments that you can have in the background to grow. So if we want to start with a just to use that word again, bandwidth, the one thing that I see a lot of entrepreneurs coming to me with questions about is I want to buy it by that properly. I want to buy it properly. No, I'm not against property. Property can work out very well. Property can produce recurring income, property can grow over time. They're all queer boxes to tick. The one thing is the further you are removed from an asset, the less of the return you will benefit from. So if you're 28, 30, 32, you say mid 30s, if you're running a business, you set or you're on still in growth mode, how much time will you have to invest in finding, buying, acquiring, maintaining problems? Yeah. If you're doing your entrepreneurial thing right, the answer is probably not a huge amount, particularly if you're in growth mode. So if you haven't got the time to maintain, look after a source and buy these properties, then you probably need a team or you need all the individuals. Those individuals as much value as they can add, they will come at a cost. Yeah. So that cost will end right on the return that you have. So ideally what you want to be looking at, again, skills box has been tech, the cash box has been tech low maintenance investments that you can put your money into and they'll just run and run. So we're really looking at from a company perspective, if you're running your own company and you're a limited company director, you can have a pension, which is a new personal name, and you can take money from the company and paying into your pension. It's extraordinarily tax efficient for both you as a company director and for the company. If you put 10,000 pounds from the company into your personal pension, you've saved yourself 2,500 pounds in tax, corporation tax, depending on your revenue and your profit, and it's in around 2425%. The HMRC, the tax manager will allow you to set that employer pension contribution aside, you know, paying your tax or not. That's money that leaves the company and goes into pension in your name. No, the tax benefits need to be set against the actual practicalities of not being able to get your hands on that money until you reach 55. Right? Now it's 55, but by the time you and I get there, it'll be age 57, 58. Okay. Now, you can do quite a lot within an investment scope between now and then, but some people get a little bit carried away with the tax benefits. The overcompetitive pension wants someone who goes in, it can't come out. So you need to be careful with that. So just on that, you know, if you have a pension per se and you're contributing 10 K, one, you're not going to see the immediate return of that until you're 55 if you're in the UK. The returns are going to be 1% a year. Yes, our tax benefits to the growth that's protected from inheritance, tax protection. If you're, if you die, I don't want kind of stuff. But if you were to put 10 K into advertising, you're selling something at a grand. Do you wait until you get your business to a point where you're cranking like sales at a grand. And then you would so much surplus profit and you've nailed it because you'll have customers, you'll have testimonies, a lot of key studies that could be used to fuel for the growth, rather than depleting it into a pension, depleting it into a battle at. That's how I look at, you know, kind of the usage of my money. But I only will give myself permission to invest in those things. Once I've got all those things, tech, absolutely. break this conversation down into two sections. Let's look at what we would need to do to get the business up to a certain level, the kind of questions that you would need to ask, what kind of money you want to be making and all that kind of stuff. And then when we're at a certain level, what do we do? Because we've already established very clearly that if we invest in ourselves, if we invest in our business, if we invest in the area of expertise that we're going to get colossal returns, much more than the stock market, property, crypto, any form of investment that's out there. And also those skills are going to last us a lifetime. Nevermind. We can pass them on to kids. We can pass them on to friends, clients, senior team members, who knows. But let's look at a business. How do we know when we're out of position that we can invest? And I call it "fuck you money". So here's my take on this and I'd love to know. So if we look at, let's just say this particular mode of a business. And the first, on foremost thing is we look at self. So when it comes to investing in yourself, you invest typically around personal growth and your ability to have emotional resilience, confidence, a good attitude towards personal growth, abundance, and all of those kind of things. If you fix those areas, you can be frightening in business. I.e. you're not afraid of failure, you're not afraid of the trauma that you experienced as a kid when you didn't have any money. If you can obliterate and eliminate those kind of fears and concerns, you can do a lot more in business. You're then into the realms of marketing, sales, I'm going to say client success or customer success, and then team. So when you go to invest in yourself in those personal growth skills, that's the first and foremost thing. You then need to invest in learning the skills of marketing, sales, client success, and team in order to be really, really good at business. So there's the personal aspect of like mindset around investing in yourself. Then there's the actual business skills which can all be learned. When you learn these skills, these improve your beliefs. Now when you improve your belief, you tend to lean into learning more skills. And then all of that together helps you develop a better strategy for growing your business. So first and foremost, these areas should be mastered and you should be putting your money into these areas so that you become a better business owner. Now if we look at it through the perspective of business, when you start mastering these skills, you're going to be a jack of all trades or what I call it, see, we achieve for fucking everything. That means that you do the marketing, you do the sales, you do the client delivery, and you are the team, right? So if you invest in the skills, the next thing you need to start doing is taking these areas off in terms of getting somebody in to help you with them. And when it comes to hiring, you hire for two things, responsibility on activity. At the start, when you start hiring, you hire for activity. That's hey, do this. Then you hire for responsibility as you start to make more money and responsibility is, hey, can you take care of the marketing department, can you take care of customer retention, can you take care of customer success? So initially, when you don't have a lot of money, you hire for activity and you are the person that's making the decisions and having the mean responsibility, then over time as you build the team and have more cash, you then start hiring smarter people or you elevate the people that were in it at the start that have learned the ropes up to senior managerial level or leaders per se. And that is going to require cash. And the reason why you do that is because event initially the business is built around you, but then it gets to your point where you start adding in team members that do things for you. And when they do things for you, you get space to think and most importantly spend time on the business. So let's just say, for example, you have currently got loads of clients, your in demand, your generating leads. But if I asked you a very simple question, if I was to double your business right now, what is the first thing that would break? If the answer is you, then you can only grow to a certain level before you start resenting taking on more clients and you start actually repelling cash. So it's your goal and mission to actually learn the skills on how to hire the team, build the team, manage the team, lead the team and get out of your own way so that the team can do stuff for you and your ability to provide impact to the marketplace increases. But you need cash in order to get there. And my big e-thos is that you don't want to deploy that catch by investing in a big property, investing in a pension, investing in an ISO because you will actually hinder your ability to create massive value for the marketplace. You will burn yourself, I you will fatigue and then you will end up standing all of the money trying to fix it. So I kind of look at it like, you know, you can't budget your way to wealth, but you've got to earn the permission to be able to invest. So once you've mastered yourself, once you've mastered these skills of business, then you need to start hiring for them, getting somebody to help with your marketing, getting somebody to help with your sales, getting somebody to help with your customer fulfillment, and putting all of that team together and building managers and team leaders that manage that junior team. And that doesn't have to be massive. Of course, we're talking in broad terms here, you get the gist. My question for you is, at what level do you feel that you will be comfortable investing after you've got six months of living expenses, six months of operational expenses in the business, and how much free time do you want to have as a result? So prime example, six months of living expenses, six months of business operation expenses, and you've got your working week down to 25 or 30 hours per week. That will at least give you some space to work on your business, but also have the additional buffer that comes in through your business to then start thinking about creating a pot to invest. So based on where we're at, that's going to be different. For some people that might be 12 months, who knows, where do we go from there once we have established that I've got my business, I've got my skills to a certain level, I'm really confident now, and my business is starting to spit off extra profit that I can't spend outside that six month window for operational and business expenses. And quick tip, I always multiply it by one and a half just to stress test it so that it got that little bit extra. If there was a one-off purchase, for example, you were to buy something expensive in your personal life like a watch or a big holiday, or in your business, if there was an opportunity to go and buy a premises or do something big, that at least you have that buffer. And again, that six to 12 months can vary between individuals. But you've got to sit down and ask yourself, how does this feel? And does this allow me to feel safe? And I feel that that is a very important feeling before one starts to speculate, invest, and kind of play the long game. So where do we go from there? Just before we move on to that, it's difficult to emphasize enough the ability to stress test what your plans are. If you're particularly, if you're between the ages of say 20 or 30, you won't remember as far back as 2000, near 2009. So 2009 was often referred to as the global financial crisis or the credit crunch for a prolonged period of time, 2, 2 and a half years, with those massive employment, people were losing their home, etc. So it's quite easy to assume with a better recency bias, that as good of things as things have been for the last two, three, four years, particularly in the online space, there was a bit of a bump that came up the COVID. Every now and again, when something really difficult happens with the economy, if your client base dries up, if people are struggling to pay for your services, you need to, essentially put your own mask on first. And that's what the cashers are worried to do. Yeah. So we've taken all of the other boxes, skilled, taken care of. We invest in the business, seals the marketing, the client success, on the team, where do we go from there? I think that just the pause you on that. I think that is the most important thing is that we're not talking about the permission to invest off. You've got your mean thing dialed in because anything outside of that is your depleting resource, energy and time from your mean thing. So get that context right. I know for a lot of you listening to this, it was for me. I got massive clarity when I realized that I don't need to be worrying about vital apps and crypto and all this stuff until I've got my business dialed. So let's take it from there. So taking it from there, what I'll share with you then is a framework that I use, both in my own decision making and in advising clients as to what to invest and even whether you should invest yourself. So call us the tricep framework, which is pretty up for people in the fitness space. So if you think of each of these, essentially as a gift, a gift to walk through in your decision make. So first thing first, we're talking about time skills. Okay. Yeah. So this will tell you not just what to invest in, but whether you should even be investing at all. So time skills, first and foremost, what this part of cash that you that you now have either personally or in your business or accomplish of the two, when do you feel you will need the money? Okay. So will you need this in a year? Will you need it in a few months? Or is it completely abandoned? Have you taken care of everything? And this is real long term stuff. So as a general rule, if you will, if you feel that you are likely to need access to this any less than one year, as bad as some cash rates might be, you must leave that in cash because if you come, if you put it in a notice account, 30 days, 60 days, 180 days, or even a fixed period bond and you come to need that money out, you can't get it. So the bank will hold on to that. Okay. So if I'm looking at time scales, I've got a bear in mind that I've got a business that is currently spitting off profit that I can live off, but I want to look at the surplus that I can put into something. And I've got to ask myself, what is the time frame? So if I'm younger, I can afford a longer time horizon. And that's provided that my business continues to spit out. And there's going to be an element of faith and courage and risk there in making that question, you know, come to answering it. If you're older and let's just say you're 40 years of age, you might have a shorter time span. So that needs to be factored in and one needs to weigh up risk, what could go wrong, rainy day, worst-case scenario. So could you dedicate that cash and sleep in your bed comfortably at night? Where do we go from there? So the one important piece to add to that is say you have a figure of maybe 50,000 points. You might have different time skills for for a about capital. So you might feel that 10,000 of that you absolutely need and say one year's time, but perhaps the other 40,000 pounds you may not need for safe hours plus. So you can work your way through, think of the part of capital that you have as a kick. So you can slice that up and allocate it to certain areas aspects, right? Different aspects, exactly. And again, there's the payback period, i.e. how quickly, can I regenerate 50k from my business and provide it that you've left the business with six to 12 months times 1.5, you then have the opportunity, well, I mean, if you're a business when you're highly focused on growth, so you're not just going to want to stay at the CM numbers. So assume that worst case scenario, you're going to stay at the CM numbers. One of the most important things in business is you focus hard on not going backwards, rather than failing, even if you're going through a tough time and a kind of debt. But you focus on how can we grow that number and that baseline spit off of profit is like your bare baseline. Yes, yeah, 100%. So you have to factor that in, that requires a bit of courage. It does. So using this working example, we set aside some money in cash, you have your six to 12 months set aside, you are comfortable committing this period of capital for a period of time, say, beyond four or five years, with end looking at risk. Are you prepared to take any level of risk with this capital? And if so, how much? Now, this can be very hard to determine by yourself. This is where it pays to speak to a financial advisor or a financial planner. If you are committing anything you'd mentioned earlier on, they're potentially crypto CFT, NFTs, there could be CFT's property. There's a whole myriad of investments out there that you could consider. What level of risk are you prepared to take? No, what is risk? That's a very good question. So in terms of risk, the financial services industry, the financial services profession, they fixate on one major measure risk and I, and a number of all the people, happen to disagree quite strongly with that. So you invested in shares and funds you still do, you will understand volatility. You invested through 2022, 2022, inflation came roaring back, interest rates went up, bonds went down, shares went down at the same time. The third time in history that that's happened, excuse me, on president. The financial services profession or industry fixates on volatility, that's a measure of risk. Volatility being the rate at which prices bounce up and down. So if you have 100,000 pounds invested and the stock market say it goes down by 20%, your investment then goes from 100 to 80,000 pounds, that is seem to be volatility and if it bounces back up again. No, one of the reasons that I and a number of all the people feel that volatility is not an appropriate measure of risk is because for a lot of people, risk what actually risk means is that your money goes down and it doesn't come back. So a lot of people equate permanent loss of capital with risk. So if you take on board that, and I would accept permanent loss of capital as an appropriate measure of risk, how much if you have a well diversified fund of maybe there's five, six thousand companies inside a single fund, if that price is bouncing around, if it's a well diversified portfolio of funds, what are the chances of getting zero back? What are the chances of getting wiped out? Practically zero. The reality is practically zero. So the three main risks that any business owner or any worth, any investor should be mind-blowing, first and foremost inflation, because inflation, if you have a part of cash setting there, inflation is the annual sustained rise price. So over time, if you have money sitting in cash and you're getting a very low return note, if the cost of goods every year is going up and up, but further than the interest rate that you're getting in your cash, you're losing money because you're 100,000 pounds this year, if you go to spend it next year or the year after, unless you've been sitting in cash, it's going to buy less. Okay, so inflation is buying power goes down. You're buying power goes down. That's exactly the way to put it. So the second risk to be thinking of then is an amytus on early run. It is permanent, irreversible loss of capital. Your money goes to zero or your money goes down, you know, 80 to 90% and it doesn't come back. 1989, 2000, if you invested in.com shares,.law.com companies, if they are the stages of the internet, those shares went to zero, they didn't come back. In 2007, yet in 2009, a lot of banks got wiped out. If you owned banking shares, a lot of people who worked in banks, those shares went to zero, didn't come back. Okay, so quite recently then, 2021, 22, even the early stages of 2023, there were a lot of crypto coins went to the wall. There were a number of other firms went bankrupt as well. So if you're heavily concentrated in a single share or a single asset, NFTs, tens, if not hundreds of billions of pounds wiped out, I think maybe three trillion was one figure that was quoted on the whole crypto NFT space. If that money goes to zero, then it's not coming back. That is the main risk that most people should be fixated on because that's permanent or loss of capital and there's no coming back from that. The third area that, or third, main risk that people should be thinking about is failing to meet your goals. Yeah, no. A lot of people start down being investing, they're being crystal clear on their goals. So some people don't even know what they're saving for or investing for. So if you want to put your children through university, if you want to optimize your money, impact it before you're them and be retired or away from your business by age 45 and 50, if you're not smart about your investments and your capital allocation, then they're not going to have them. So inflation, permanent loss of capital and failing to reach your goals are the three main risks people should be fixated on, non-faultful. And I would add one more to that as well is tax. So if you haven't looked at what options are available for you to legally mitigate tax and avoid paying excess tax, you're leaching cash. You're just leaking it out. And this is in a consulting and coaching space where you've got to remote business and you can literally run it, move it from anywhere in accordance to whatever the legal laws are or principles are, are run that you need to exploit that and take advantage of that because that could save you a substantial amount of cash. And so I have plenty of clients that have relocated their business for purely the purposes of their lifestyle, how they want to live, time scales and all of these things are factored in as well. Geographical location, etc. So I think if somebody's paying over the odds and tax when they have an option to essentially relocate or transition elsewhere and they're willing to take on the attributes that need to be kind of fulfilled and the prerequisites to do that and they're entitled to as well. Completely agree. Absolutely. So if you have gotten clear on your time scales, you're clear that you're prepared to take an other risk with your capital. The next two areas are income and capital growth. So when you say income, do you mean cash flow? I do. So this is here. What we're thinking about is we'll take off time scales and risk. The part of cash that you have, what is the ultimate return that you want from it? Do you want something that will pay an income from the rest of your life? Passive income is a huge thing. The moment people want income coming in that will take care of their other day-to-day, monthly expenditure. Passive income will allow you to go off and pursue your business opportunities. That does get to a point where it can exceed somebody's living expenses or lifestyle and then they end up in the same challenge of I've got surplus cash. What do I do with it? Exactly. And the whole point of having a plan in place and getting clarity upfront is to make sure that you don't fall into that situation because if you're investing for investing sick and you think that you just want income because income signs are good. You'll see absolutely. And then you're sitting with a lot of income coming in and that's not tax efficient because whether it's being received by a company, if it's being received personally with assets in your own name, corporation tax income tax will just be there to consume some of your return. So from an income perspective, if somebody then wants income so they can step back from their business, this is one of the reasons that that property becomes quite attractive because you rent as a monthly income stream or some people will have no need, no desire whatsoever for income nine, but what they do want or what they would want is say one would have 50, 200,000 pounds, pick any figure you want at a certain point in the future. So getting crystal clear on whether it's income, a regular income you want or no income but you know strong capital growth, that will then become very instrumental in wettling down your investment options. Okay. No. Once you've gotten to and to be clear, you might have with a pot of cash, you might want an income and capital growth for two separate objectives, but once you're clear on those two points that will show you way forward. So the one part that a lot of people ignore and very few people get clear on are expectations and this is one of the problems at the moment with social media because if you watch social media, they're talking about investing in you know Vanguard ETFs and other funds and index funds. What's the next trading? Index trading. I'm a big trader. I'm a big trader. FX, CFDs, all these other things. It's passive income. I'm a secret trades just by my course. One of the big problems and again, this is one of the challenges of taking advice or information from anonymous accounts on social media you know and earlier 10s early 20s you know they're quoting average investment returns that have been around for the last maybe six, seven years, nine, ten years. Lots of accounts online are saying yeah just invest your money you'll get 10% the year, nine percent the year. 10% the year is what it's perhaps what the S&P has done on average over the last ten years but that is above the long term historical norms. So like I just you know I have a friend that is extremely wealthy and you know he gave me an insight of advice when we were at shooting. He says Phil in my time horizon and he's like 67 if you can aim for it percent and in the run that it's relatively safe and that's like a dream country and I think above that's too risky and I think really below that's not worth it. So you know is it percent our magic number? It percent maybe even too. In the grand scheme of being not taking mega risk but from a long term like 10, 20, 30 year perspective is that what we would be looking for unless there's pop lock and I buy a piece of land or buy an investment that completely coboons. Absolutely. So 1% between 8 and 9% if you take a 5 to 7 to 10 year rolling period and in history over the last 100, 120 odd years a well diversified portfolio up shares. Lower assets, lower returning assets like cash and bonds and property would bring that average return down. But if you're investing in a 100% share or global equity type portfolio over the long term, yet percent would be a reasonable assumption. No. The one thing, the two things that you need to allow for is inflation and costs. So the reality is if you have an advisor or you're paying for an investment platform which you will need to buy your funds, you may end up with 7.5, 7.5% as an average over the long term once you've taken those costs and the consideration. The other thing to point out as well that a lot of people are seeing and indeed saying online, they talk about 10% the year, you know, getting a half, 9% the year as if it just drops in by clockwork. Now you've been investing now for quite a number of years, you will have seen that it's not like that. 2022 was a negative year, bonds were done something like maybe 14%, some stock markets were done with be 22%, 2023, most global markets were open in around 20 to 25%, I think maybe the S&P 500 is 24.1%, that's from where you're outside of the historical norms. So what you're actually looking at when you're investing is perhaps say over a seven year period plus 10 plus 2 minus 30 plus 25 plus 2 plus 6 plus 9 minus 10. So it's a random period or pattern of returns at 10% will not just fall into your investment account every single year. But when you take any say five to seven year period in history, the most frequently returned average return would be around 8% or global shares. So really important to be clear on your expectations because if you're seeing people online, you know, 600% in a year on Nvidia or you know, other amounts in crypto and you get 15 to 20%, which is a phenomenal return above the historical average, you're going to think it's crap. And then what are you going to do? You're going to panic, you're going to say you're maybe going to go into something else. So it can be it can really distort your long term views and objectives. So if you're clear on expectations, if you only need three to four percent, you might get that in cash or for xx3 at bond. 6 to 78% is a reasonable long term average expectation for shares. And as you said, anything over and above eight or nine percent, you will you could potentially do that bank individual shares. But as your friends said, and as you just a little too, that is high risk. Anything above that type of average return is deemed to be high risk. Very high risk. What's a T? Pay plans, plans on objectives. Plans on objectives, right? So three things to take into consideration when we're going to plans objectives. So ideally, plans objectives will have been pretty clear upfront because you will need to have a clear idea or a good idea of what your plans objectives are before you start setting time skills. What if things don't pound? What if life throws you curve ball? What if your business really booms and takes you off in a different direction? And what if you have problems with team members? What if your business surprises to the downside? Essentially a plan B and a plan C. No, it's common business advice that you should burn the boat. No plan B, no plan C, you know, lead into your business 100%. But the reality is that life can throw up some surprises. And what you want to be thinking about here is a three different scenarios. So your ideal scenario, a things upon it the way you're letting to go. Perhaps a better than average or better than anticipated scenario. And then a almost again, it works case scenario. So how do you feel that you will be able to adapt and overcome those objectives? And that is really where the benefit of a coach or a consultant and a native finance advisor can come in because you don't know what you don't know. So just to summarize that, we've got time scales looking at the amount of time that you need to get the money back or when you want to draw it. That depends on your age. Risk risk is essentially a combination of tax, inflation, and there was the volatility of it. So I'm dying. Permanent loss of capital. Volatile loss of capital. Yep. As in a count come back like dot com shares. And there was one more. Yeah, so failure to meet your goals. Failure to meet your goals. We then have income, which is cash flow essentially every single month. And then we have capital growth, which is long term growth. So for example, income can be the rent roll off of property is not more important to you. Or is the capital growth of the property in 10, 20 years more important to you or a combination of both expectations. What are your expectations when something goes way up? Is it going to continue to go way up? When it goes down, what do you do? Plans and objectives ultimately, best case, worst case, in between. Absolutely. That's essentially it. So let's look at investments now. Say I've got the business absolutely dialed in. I've factored all this and this is very hard to give individual advice. This is high level overarching thinking and frameworks before you go into this. I've got to look at right when do I want to extract this money? What do I want out of it? What is the risk? What are my expectations? How often am I going to look at it? And what are my plans and objectives with my business as this pot grows? I'm going to continue to fund it as I push for business growth. And a couple of lessons, my ends. I have looked at always creating a proportion of my revenue that I invest. And every single month when I see that go out or whenever I deploy it at a particular quarter or time of the year, it empties my bank account and it really encourages me to work harder. It actually lights a fire. I pretend that that's not my money anymore. I park it away. I'll talk about my investments in a minute. And it allows me to get stuck back into growing my business to replenish that pot and keep going. But I never ever, ever leave myself thin or I never, ever ever put it to a point where I put myself at risk because even though I may have the cash and I go to put it into something, I never want to be worrying that I've just depleted because surprises happen. Surprises happen. Business surprises happen in life and I always want to be prepared. I also like sitting on cash as well. So I like to know that I can punch on something if I see a distress asset or I see something there I can buy. And you know, those have generally been principles that I play an eye approach, putting money into stocks and shares, property, whatever it is. And yeah, any thoughts on that? I would agree with absolutely everything that you've said. You know, life is unexpected. Having the cash reserves there will allow you to be more flexible, more adaptable to change. And the reality is that you know, nobody ever regretted having an emergency fund or a cash reserve or, you know, a rainy day fund, right? Really day fund. 100%. Okay, cool. All right. I'm going to give a quick snapshot of how I invest and then I want to kind of look at some of the mistakes that I've made, lessons and principles and kind of expand that out. How does that sound? Sounds good. So my main investment is my main business. And that is a coaching and consulting business. So I always make sure that advertising, team bonuses, all of that kind of stuff is dialed in. I only invest surplus cash and I have a range of different pockets. The first thing that I'll look at is anything that creates tax efficiency. So that's going to be the pension vehicle. I use a pension vehicle and then I put that into stocks and shares, which Stevie looks after in coordinates. And that is where I put the majority of my money at this point in my life. I'm 36 years of age. I'm not going to be able to access it for 20. But when I look at the corporation tax deductions, the protection if I die and the ability for my daughter to take it with like a massive tax bill at the capital growth that's also tax-free, the dividends of all of it and all the other benefits of a pension. It is a very interesting and powerful vehicle for me in a corporate structure to utilize. Any thoughts on that before I move on to the next point? All right. So there's the pension side of things. The next piece for me is then property. So very simple, by-lawed residential with commercial, ideally grit tenants. That is the second point. Big thing with me with property is it's definitely not as easy as it's made out to be. There are a lot of expenses with property. There is a lot of hustle. For example, the other day I just had to replace a roof, which was five grand, which takes up a lot of the yield of a whole year of cash flow. There's leaks, there's loads of stuff that goes wrong with them. They are not by it, said it, it works constantly. Commercial, slightly different, but then you also have the problem if a tenant moves out and then you have to refurb it. You might not see your money back for a long period of time. So they all carry risk. They are not as plain-sealing as you think. Then I have venture capital and funds. Again, I do some stuff locally with some local businesses and businesses that I have an interest in. I then do elements of cryptocurrency, some things that I'm genuinely interested in and have a firm belief in, but they're largely speculation and also watches art and some wine. Those are generally my asset classes with the least amount of money going towards the latter. That's how I approach investing. Anything you want to add to that before I start going into some lessons? What I'd like to actually share, if I can, is I have a three-point checklist. If I think to a lot of the questions and queries that I get online or from clients or DMs, lots of people are looking to jump straight into the watch that I buy, should I buy S&P 500 or can I buy the NASDAQ, etc. The three things that people should be thinking about and getting clear on, excuse my writing. Just think A, B and C. The three things that you should be concerned about are assets, behavior and charges. You can do this the easy way or you can do it the hard way. When we talk about assets, if we're talking about, if we again, we've checked the boxes that we discussed earlier on, the business is growing, it's cranking out cash, you've maximized your skills, your sales, your marketing, your client success, and your team, and you want to then grow for the future. If you're really looking to build wealth, build cash, build financial independence, the types of assets that you want to be avoiding here, you want to avoid bonds. Bonds, we talk a little bit about volatility, bonds are a generally deemed to be a low-risk asset. Now in 2022, some bonds did go down and value, but if you're really looking to grow and compound over the long term shares and to a letter degree properly, I really want to be. What is a bond for people listening in 10 seconds or so? good question so a bond is essentially a form of debt. If you lend money to the government or you money to a company, say they need 100 million pounds for a project, they will not have that sitting in their bank account, they need to raise money. So they will raise 100 million pounds, they will raise 1 million hundred pound bonds, and if you buy a bond, you essentially land money to the government or the company with the promise that you get your money back in 10, 20, 30 years, and interest payments generally twice a year. So because you're guaranteed or you promised your money back at the end of the term and you get interest twice a year, it's generally seem to be a little risk. Yep, okay. So bonds cash, cash is important for emergencies, it's important for a rainy day, it's important to have in the business as a bit of a buffer, it should not form part of an investment portfolio because in the good times it won't add enough return to your portfolio, in a bad times if you only have three or four or five, even say 10% cash in portfolio, it's not going to do a huge amount for a dime-side protection. So cash is for emergencies, rainy days, etc, it's not for long-term growth, okay. So in terms of the, I do like the aspect of sitting though on cash when interest rates are a lot higher than what they normally are, and the vantage point that it gives to buy and essentially recoup what essentially is lost with inflation by buying a distressed asset or a distressed piece of advertising or something that I can exploit. And it's hard to calculate that, you know, it's again, there's an element of luck and just finding opportunity that comes with those things of course. Exactly that, so can predict when the world's going to be shit itself. Yeah well, you'd mention recently on a podcast that, you know, you have a lot of friends underneath yourself, sitting with large pots of cash to be able to to points to have the optionality to pick up an asset and if something does, if the right opportunity does arise, the one thing, there's a famous quote and I can't remember who said it, but they say that when the right or when the real time comes to buy, you won't want to. And the reason that you won't want to is because everyone will be panicking, everyone will be running around scared, people will be thinking that the world's coming to an end, as Warren Buffett says, there'll be blood on the streets and when assets are in free fall, that's the time to buy, but human behavior and human psychology will not want to actually pull the trigger. So yes, it can be good to have cash there for that type of optionality, but I think a lot of people overestimate their ability and their rationality to be able to buy a good quality asset in a falling market because that's when everyone is selling. It's the right time to do it, but it's to kind of sort of put it in the process. So in terms of behavior, the enemy, if we stick to what you don't want and what you should be seeking to avoid, we've got greed and fear, which are deemed to be the two largest drivers in the stock market and a day to invest in generally, but if you allow your behavior and your emotions to get the better of you, it doesn't matter what asset you're buying, property, shares, crypto, anything else. If you are being propelled by your your inner champ to use a Steve Peters' analytic champ paradox, which is a great book, by the way, it's not a personal finance book, but it's a lot of personal finance learnings. Behaviour should be sitting on your hands, being patient, finding the right asset, paying a sensible price for it, and then just basically standing back and then getting it work. But if you're continually reacting, which we saw quite a lot in the crypto space and on any time the stock market is volatile, people are being driven and propelled by fear and greed, not out of long-term rationality. Psychology of money by Morgan Housel, fantastic book talks a lot better and a lot clearer than I could ever get. Charges, costs, costs, taxes, which you've already mentioned, advisor, charges, clearly the right advisor and the right circumstances cannot allow you to consult them absolutely. Platform, if you're investing in pensions or shares, it's a digital platform that they need to be conducted on. Correct. Transaction, costs and charges, if you're buying shares, if you're buying, say, if you're buying property, as good and as- Legals, right the way through to selling fees, buying fees, all kinds of services, insurances, absolutely. And that what a lot of people feel to take into consideration, if they're buying shares, they're buying phones or other buying property, is the actual, there's a huge difference between the grocery turn and the net return. Grocer turn is just the overall headline way to return that you get, but once you've allowed for maybe advice, consultancy fees, insurance, surveys, you know, riffing charges. It does not right? I can recall this recently with my Irish pension where we were looking at buying property versus putting it in the stock market and the property looked really attractive with the really high yields and everything. For the time you looked at dying to change in currencies, right the whole way through to legal, right the whole way through to repairs, right the whole way through to moving it into another pension vehicle or whatever, whenever I'd moved away from there. The cost just was negligible in comparison. It's science good on paper, but when you actually sit down and run through this framework, this framework will save you a lot of money, so it makes you screenshot it. You need to know what you're getting into and it's like the saying, you know, turn over his vanity profit a Saturday. So why take on something because it's returning like, you know, the big yield, but the actual take home is next to nothing. It's like having a, you know, I sat with a friend the other night and his business does around about 15 million a year and his net take home is like 5%. And you know, if you work that out off that figure, that's not a lot with hundreds of staff, premises, all the risk versus the nimbleness of a coaching and consulting business that there's a couple of million a year in profit. But you know, requires a funder to work 10 hours, everything's light nimble, agile fast. So, you know, there's a whole good stuff and he didn't intentionally intend to build that. That's just naturally just combined it over time. But these things are very, very important to understand for sure. And this is where the the the homework really pays off to you because it's easy to be seduced and the financial services properly space it is easy to be seduced by head line returns. The investment property or investment proposition was put you a while ago, the performance of the fund looked insane and it looked great and I performed lots of other indices. When you looked at the small print, the fund had launched yet. Yeah, it was a back test, you know, so it was all these kind of hypotheticals. If we own these various funds and assets, then it would have done better than all these other things. So doing your homework in advance, weighing up what what what type of taxes you you may have to pay. What type of a full picture, full picture. So, can I say let's move on from this. When I'm getting financial advice, if you were to fire off five runs of what you dislike around the current trend of financial advisors and people giving financial advice, whether it's through a traditional FA, write the whole way through to the internet, I just let me to cover that in like five principles, like bang, bang, bang. Okay, so in terms of there's a real fixation. If you read the paper, you read the press, you follow, you know, personality is online. You could be forgiven for thinking the personal finances is all about savings and investing or even just investing. The reality is it's a lot different because if you're particularly if you're a busy business owner, fitness owner or they just in the coaching, consulting space generally, there are five other areas over and above savings and investments, which are actually extremely important to take into consideration. So in terms of assets, what are the assets that grow over time? What are the assets that outpace inflation? What are the assets that if you invest your cash into what grow or could be expected to grow over the long term to produce real wealth? Really, there are two that we're looking at. Shares, also known as equities, and property. Those are generally deemed to be the two real assets that have been proven over history to grow. In terms of behavior, this is really simple. It's so simple that it's actually boring, but so few people are able to do it. So, patience is one of these things that if you everyone wants to talk about compound interest, everybody wants to talk about getting it the 9 to 10% per hour a year or a year, the reality is that the stock market, the property market, is never linear. It never grows and is straight road or a straight line. So, patience is extremely important to have. I mean, if you're doing business right, you then you're concentrating on your company anyway, so you shouldn't have time to be checking on your property, you shares every single day. They say that a portfolio is like a bar soap that will you touch it the smaller it gets. So just really whatever asset that you're going to buy, be prepared to buy it, park it, forget about it, and that'll do its thing. So the other behavior is continued contributions. What we tend to see with people particularly if you're paying into the likes of a stock shares portfolio or a fund or a pension, Nick Majili wrote a book recently called Just Keep Bang and he looked about how are you people who are paying in on a monthly basis say to a pension or a fund, some type of portfolio, when the stock market takes a tumble, they pause contributions. Okay, so people tend to panic, stock market goes down, they don't want to be putting their money into the market when the market's falling, that's exactly when you want to be putting your money in. Because if you're saving just you use your own figures or examples, 100 pounds per month. If the share price last month was one point, then your 100 pounds or 100 dollars will buy 100 shares. Again, if the share price is one and you pay in 100, you get 100 shares. If the stock market took a real tumble next month and the share price could cut in half, the share price was 50p, then guess what, your 100 buys 200. So that's called pine cost averaging or dollar cost averaging in America and when the market goes up, your 100 pounds still goes into the market, when the market goes down, your fixed payments per month go in every single month like clockwork and the cheaper the shares go because everyone's panicking and everyone's selling, you're picking up shares cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. So pine cost averaging or dollar cost averaging. And as Nick Majili says, just keep buying. Charges one word here, keep them low. Okay, so one of the conversations that we've had quite often, we're looking at consulting fees, advisor fees, legal fees, etc. The entire financial services or the vast majority of the entire financial services is fixated on percentage of BS charging. Okay, so there are a lot of firms out there will be charging 1% plus that plus transaction costs plus phone costs plus plus plus plus plus. As Jack Bogle said, they found a vine guard now deceased investing is the one area of life where you get what you don't pay for. Okay, so what that means is the less you're paying and facing charges, the more you get the key. So you get what you don't pay for. So if you're, if the average return on a poor full, let's say, is 6%, if you're paying 2.5 to 3%, what are you going to keep? You're going to keep 3, 3.5%. And facing 3%, what have you got left? You've got nothing. So charges, it's important to pay for the right advice, the right service, you need a platform, etc. But keep the charges low as you possibly can and if you can if you can secure a flat or fixed fee, that's the way to go because the less you pay, the more of your investment returns that you keep here. Love that. Okay, let's close this with two parts. One, what are the maybe top three to five key insights that everyone should be aware of when it comes to getting a financial advisor or heck, listening to somebody online, like five things that really piss you off. And then I'm going to share with you, we'll go pine for pine on a kind of mental discipline slash psychological lesson, a run money and investing. I'm going to close on that. So what are the things that piss you off? Okay, straight away, number one, blanket returns. So all these people, all these accounts online talking about S&P 500, you've gone guard ETFs 10% 10% 10% that is extremely outside of the norm. It sets it dangerously high expectations. It says consistent expectations. And as the old saying goes, hop in us as expectations manage reality. So if you don't take advice, if you don't have the clarity and the confidence to invest yourself, you open up a random savings account or investment account, you start paying funds. If you're one year two, you don't get 10%, you're going to think that you're doing something wrong. You're going to think that you're in the wrong platform and the wrong fund. You might be, but you might not. So number one, it's those blanket returns and promising consistent returns from start market based investments. Number two, the charging of high percentage based charges for funds that cannot be delivered. No, I'm not going to name any names. I don't have a big legal team. But if you read the papers of the last two, three, four years, you would have seen a number of large financial advisory firms in big trouble because they were charging, ongoing advisory fees for two things. For investment returns, they are for investment performance that didn't materialize. But for services, ongoing review services that were never done. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to outperform the market or not ongoing basis. If you look at the top 10 UK wealth management firms, their business practice, their investment portfolios are heavily, that means you're paying for them. To buy and sell shares, judge the market, read the tea leaves, look at Chinese GDP and a lot of American debt and try and work out what the world is going to do. That can't be done. So if it can't be done, then why are you paying large fees to someone to do it? Really, the level of wealth that is destroyed on that basis is absolutely phenomenal. The third thing, which I really don't like, really dislike, is the fixation on investments and investments alone. So if you're a business owner, if you're running a team, you're running a company, maybe you're a parent, maybe you have a few kids. Most people will fail that they can't or shouldn't get financial advice if they don't have a huge chunk of money to invest. Now, what I'll just do is quickly sketch out the six key areas of this shows the six main areas. Okay, so I call this the flip side framework. I will put some more information in the show notes. So this drawing is not a scale. So what do these mean? F-L-I-P-S-I-D-A. So first, we have F-F is for financial protection. So if you're a business owner and if you're a parent, you'll have responsibilities and commitments. What happens if you die? So if you're a parent and you die and you leave behind your partner, your spouse, your children, you need to have money there to make sure that they continue to pay the bills, keep the roof over their head. If you're in business, if you have two or three shareholders and directors, if one of you die, then there is state or their spouse or their partner and girlfriend, it may inherit the company shares. The company will then need some money to buy the shares off the surviving spouse so the company can continue to run. So both personally, unbusiness, financial protection is absolutely critical. You might not necessarily die, you can become critically ill. Maybe you're in a vegetative state and you're not able to work and complete your duties. How will you continue to pay your bills? Yeah. So how many accounts online on social media have you heard of talking about finance protection? Okay. The second box here, L, L for liabilities. You may have your capacity as a business owner, you may have some business borrowings. Most people who have a house will have a mortgage. Are you a mortgage on the right terms? Is it right? Is it with the right lender? How do you know it's on the right me payment terms? So there's a big area to be managed there. I over here refers to income or income versus expenses. You're never done talking full. When you're your sessions, your massive action days, your podcast, it's okay to have expenses, but your expenses should be muscle not fat. You should not have business bloke. The difference between your income and your expenses, either business or personal, that is your firepower. That is your optionality to plan for the future. And the more the bigger the gap between your income and your expenses, the more flexibility, the more dry powder you have to invest for the future. Pace to answer pensions. Penchions could be long, could be long done with saving down investments. However, it has a separate set of tax privileges, benefits and some potential drawbacks in terms of where you can get your hands on your money. There's right little online about pensions. Again, you could be forgiving for thinking that the pensions were small add-on. Seemings and investments is everything from cash, bonds, premium bonds, national seemings and investments, right up to stocks and shares, be a portfolio. So that tends to be the sexy part. That's what people gravitate towards. And that's where people think that avoid bonds. But avoid bonds. Yes, absolutely. Avoid bonds. And another that's important for you. So the sector area here, the ethandist's de-planning. Do you have a will? Do you have a part of a turning? Do you have nominations on your pension? Are you part of a trust? If you die tomorrow with inheritance tax be paid by your partner, your girlfriend, your family. So the biggest thing that really frustrates me about both online and the financial service industry is the fixation on just this, and ignoring financial protection. The loans in the library is management. Income and expenses also refer to as cash flow. Penchions, the ethandist's de-planning. So there's so much more to just savings and investments, to having a certain grasp of your personal finances. Having a clarity, confidence and confection to them being in your business. Nice. Okay, let's close us with some lessons. I'm going to start with mine and then I'll let you share one and we'll go from maybe Ryan to maybe five to seven. Find us outside. Let's do it. Number one is expecting instant returns instant gratification. That will be the death of your wealth, 1% and the long game always wins. Yes, there are going to be some times where you get instant quick wins, but don't let that blind side you into thinking everything else is like that. Yes, so my biggest learning, and particularly I came this quite late, but I mean anyone who reads anything from Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, even Morgan Housel, it's all about mindset. Money is 99% psychological. Okay, so it's easy sometimes to earn money, but money can come easy, it can go equally easy. If you're not a pace with who you are, if you're not comfortable with who you are, how you behave with and about money, you will struggle to retain it. You will struggle to grow it. So you have to, I always talk about helping clients to understand, then manage the enrolled in money. You need to understand who you are, what you want, the type of person you are with a lot of money, and the only thing when you have that foundation, can you then grow your wealth. Third is that everybody wants to invest and win, but they don't take on the downsides of investing. All they focus on is the upsides, but they don't focus on the downsides. It's the same with the business. You will have high months, but you will also have low months and investing. You will win, but you will also lose. So it's embracing the non-dual aspect of life and business. You can't win if you lose. You can't lose if you win. So knowing that when you invest, you're not just investing to win. You're investing to also lose. I know that sounds really weird, but you can't win the game if you don't play the game, and there are going to be certain times where it goes backwards, it goes dying. You will lose. You will make mistakes, and those are all part and parcel of winning. So don't just expect to win all the time. That is the goal, but winning comes with losing and dips and low points and volatility. Well, the thing I would say is that it's okay to be average at Morgan Heiselha's data. I think maybe both his books, "CM" is ever on psychology of money. If you can be average and he may have gotten this from Charlie Munger, but if you can be average for an above average period of time, then you will like perform your entire peer marker. Most people think that you have to be brilliant. Most people get a little bit greedy. Most people are continually striving for the high double digit returns. You're looking for this lottery ticket, looking for this large asymmetric payoff. You know, there's kind of one million hit, but if you can remain in average and under an average returns for a an above average period of time, then you will have outperformed and left behind everybody who are trying to be cute looking for hacks, looking for shortcuts. Last lesson for me is I believe that your whole life should be built around margin, whether that's profit margin, whether that's having free time, whether that's having surplus energy and love to give. But whenever you go to invest, you can't get a reward if you don't take a risk. But you can only handle a risk if you've got margin. That means thinking space, self-love, surplus energy, surplus health, surplus cash to get you out of a hole. So margin is very important to me and I never, ever run my margin to zero in order to take a gamble in order to take a risk. And you know, I could easily see somebody that put all their money into Bitcoin 20, 30 years ago. That wasn't me. And I don't reminit and overthink, you know, why did I not do that? Because at that moment in time, that individual did not know what they were doing. It was a punt. And you can't strategize for punts. So I would only invest something into a speculative investment if I could afford to lose it. I invest in cryptocurrency. But all the money that I've put in there, I can afford to lose and I'm comfortable with lose. I can write it off as a tax deduction towards another investment. So I have built the skills to understand that but also built the business to give me the margin to be able to play and do things like that and take punts. So that's my final lesson. Well, one final lesson for me then, if I were to share it, is the one mistake that most people make when they're balancing their finances and they think they're thinking with the future. You might have a clear why with your business and you talk quite often about having a purpose, having a vision, having a life misnustration. But when it comes to sitting down to managing your finances and for either for you or for your family, very few people are clear on the why. Why do they want what they want? So what do they want? Why do they want it? And when are they prepared to or how long are they prepared to work for to actually get it? So if you want to jump in straight away to investments, you have no context. You have no time frame. You have no greed. The time skills you have taken on consideration, the level of risk. Only when you're super clear on your why does everything else that fall into place. Yeah, more detail. you have behind the strategy, the more confident you are and the clearer you are. So, Stevie, thank you so much for talking us through all things, risk, assets, investing, timing. If people want to hear more from you or they want to work with you, work and they find you. So, you'll find me on Instagram, I'm on Twitter or X, I'm on LinkedIn, Stevie McCallum on Twitter and Instagram, Stephen McCallum, a little bit more formal for LinkedIn, got to keep the corporate fears on and Stevie McCallum.com. Stevie McCallum.com. Thanks guys, until next time, bye.