Navigating the Court System & Post Separation Abuse: With Divorce & Custody Coach- @momswithswords

Hi everyone, and welcome to Why She Stayed, the podcast where we answer the question, "Why doesn't she just leave?" and talk about what really goes on inside of domestic violence relationships that causes us to become trapped in the cycle. Every abuser convinces you that you are crazy and you deserve to be convinced that you're definitely not. My goal is to educate, validate, and empower you to trust your instincts and know that you are not alone. I'm your host, Grace Stewart. Hi guys, and welcome to this week's episode of Why She Stayed. Today I'm here with my guest Rachel, who's a divorce and custody coach. You might recognize her from Instagram. She's an expert in helping women navigate the legal process where there's been abuse and really just equip them to be fully prepared for that journey from pre-separation all the way through post-separation. Her Instagram is @momswithswords and her coaching website is greaterthingstocome.com, which I'll link both in the description below. Today we're going to be discussing topics like when you're trying to make that difficult decision to separate as well as post-separation abuse and what it looks like to navigate a lot of those scary unknowns that you might be facing or that you're already in the thick of. So thank you so much for coming and I'm super excited. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. So we have so much to share on this episode, but first I just want to say that I really admire what you're doing with Moms With Swords and it's honestly exciting to me that you really get it because I think it's so hard to find resources who have an accurate grasp on both the mind of an abuser, what's actually going on, and then what actually creates that path to success in these types of battles. So for those listening, can you first explain a little bit about your heart behind what you do and your mission behind Moms With Swords? Sure, I'd love to. So all of this work is born out of my personal experience having walked through the family court system. I am a nurse by trade, so my background's in pediatric nursing and then I also have my master's in nursing education. And honestly, when I entered the legal process, I thought from even a nursing standpoint, "Oh my goodness, I document for a living. I'm going to know how to document." And then I quickly found myself in a situation where, "Oh, that was not helpful or that did not provide me the outcome I was looking for." And no one hands you this manual and says, "Okay, this is what this is going to look like, this is what's going to be expected of you, this is your role and responsibility." And I found myself in so much uncertainty, which drove even more angst and turmoil within while I was navigating all of the demands in the post-separation phase and entering all of the abuse that I really hadn't anticipated. I didn't expect an evolution of what had happened in the pre-separation phase to devolve further into the post-separation phase on the legal stage, right? And so it was probably for me about six to eight months into my legal process that I found a coach. I had literally googled narcissistic abuse and post-separation abuse because I had started reading some articles and understanding that I was part of a global community of women that were experiencing this and that this wasn't isolated to just me and I was realizing there was really a template for what women experience when they enter the legal process and it was fitting everything to a T. So I had googled, I had found somebody who was on YouTube and then I connected with her as a coach and that for me was when I really started to see the needle move in and out of the courtroom. So not only was I advocating better with my lawyer, understanding and having more clarity when it came to the legal process, what to expect, how to behave, how to communicate, how to make decisions, how to stay consistent, all of these things. I didn't have this skill set and so coaching for me was really such a lifesaver and it really did transform my ability to manage myself and become the best version of myself outside of the courtroom with all of these factors so that I could manage the omnipresent conflict and still show up as mom and gain success in the legal process. So when I got out of the bulk of my legal process, I really wanted to do this for other women. I knew I wouldn't be the last woman unfortunately sitting in this seat and so for me I took what I had learned, what I had gained from my coaching and I implemented it in a more comprehensive manner because when I received coaching it was just one-off sessions where you logged on and a lot of it was venting and then a lot of it was whatever she could feel right out of all of that mental mess. I was spewing in the sessions and I wanted to provide somebody with a way to accelerate their growth and so that's why I came up with my coaching program that's comprehensive. So we start at ground zero of where you are, whether you've left, whether you're five years post-separation or you haven't left yet. I meet you where you are and then we build this skill set in for in and out of the courtroom process and we work together all the way through it. So really in the coaching program it's twofold because you're getting those one-on-one sessions but you're getting trained and you're getting taught and mentored through the content that I have for you on the platform so that when you do come to your one-on-one sessions we're ready to jump into your life. I'm not having to explain the system or how to work with professionals or how to go through a psyche valve. You've already gotten that knowledge and that training from the videos and then you come to these group calls and you come to the one-on-ones and you can voice note me and iVoxer coach as well so you're getting all these layers of support so that in real time you're either on a one-on-one in a group call or able to access me through email and voxer and really gain that traction you need but that's a little bit about my coaching and why I developed it but a lot of it's borne out of my own experience. Absolutely no that's so helpful to know and I think a lot of times women they feel like it's this giant puzzle that they're trying to put together and almost starting from that point where they don't know what they don't know when they're heading into that process whether they're still pre-separation thinking should I even take this jump or whether it's post-separation and now they're in the thick of it feeling like I got to get caught up and oftentimes it's like choosing between do I stay in the abuse in it or possibly still experience the abuse out of it and possibly be separated from children or a challenge just like that it's like it just it's never ending. Yeah so first I want to speak to the woman who's still trying to decide whether to leave or not and feels entrapped by the abuser and all of those what-ifs maybe they have a scale in their mind that's tipping one way uh yeah I'm pretty confident I should leave and then it tips the other way they can't decide what's best. What are some of the most common fears you're hearing as far as those who are still trying to make that decision? Yeah and before I jump into those fears I think it's important to note that on that continuum of the scale that you're kind of referencing you can be at any point on that continuum on extreme levels from moment to moment and that also drives that confusion of like what do I do and now there's paralysis by analysis right of all of these thoughts just running in feelings and contradictions and then just being in that depleted eroded space where your identity has been largely depleted and distorted from the abuser and your confidence is down you're doing even trust yourself right and your own perceptions because of the gas lighting and the manipulation and everything that's been done to destabilize your world I think that these these things become more magnified and less clear as you're grappling with them but I think some of the things that I hear constantly are I'm choosing between bad and worse which one is worse do I stay or do I go is worse to be against him or to be with him what could happen to my children when we're forced into the family court system I know I hear from a lot of moms can I protect them better by being with them one almost 100 of the time at least I have a pulse on what they're experiencing I can try to shield them from that and it is very scary to know that you're going to likely depending on your situation but most times you're going to have to submit to parenting time with this other person who you don't trust and you are fearful of and you've just tried to escape the unknown that's a big one right because that feels paralyzing at least there's familiarity within the context of the relationship and the abuse that you're enduring right now and it feels sometimes quite scarier to anticipate that it could get worse or it could be different on the other side so the familiarity can be somewhat comforting as juxtaposed as that is to how horrible your situation is it is something that I see moms holding on to another thing is am I going to become less safe outside the context of the relationship will anybody believe me or understand how bad this really is a lot of times moms have been set up in an environment with this abuse that they are told repeatedly like nobody would believe you like if you spoke out if you called the police if you did x y z no one's going to believe this and also they've they've set up usually scenarios where maybe you have contradictions right where you've either reacted certain ways or you've done different things that they can point to and they'll use those events or those decisions that you've made or the ways that you've showed up in the past as a reaction or a response to what they're doing as a way to say you go and say that but look what you've done too so that's something I see is the weaponization of that age of children is a big deal because if you have little bitties I feel that moms are often buying time to get to a point where they have a more verbal child or a more independent child so that the worry and the fear isn't as much when they know they're going to have to give parenting time to this other person and then yeah the statistic that women it takes about seven times on average to leave your abuser and so if she's already yo-yoed back and forth and left and come back to him every time by the way when you leave and come back that baseline of control increases because he knows that you've come back right and so it's going to get worse it might get better for a second because there's a promise making the future faking those kinds of things but generally that new baseline of control and power and entitlement and abuse just increases and so she's likely quite fearful of his response to a final escape because she already has experience going and coming back to him and knowing that things can get worse or knowing what it was like in that brief time that she did maintain a separation from him before coming back so that those are some very common themes that I see running through mom's heads that keep them you know in that state of I don't know I really don't know what's best to do here yeah and I always mention that statistic I really drive it home because it's so true that it takes a lot of times to leave usually and I think you know paralyzing really is the word because you feel like sometimes there's no good decision coupled with everything else that's going on just with the abuse I mean just that alone is enough to drive you into complete confusion complete feelings of being paralyzed and so adding all of this on top of it having to navigate the legal process and just have the stamina just have the stamina to go through this like it adds such a layer it adds amounts really but you posted an infographic on instagram that I absolutely loved it was about abuser tactics simplified and I thought it was so informative how is it that the abuser is the one who creates all this unsafety in the relationship they're the one who's doing all of this stuff and somehow they end up with no consequences in the end sometimes but yet mom gets punished for it in the end some way somehow yeah it's quite a reversal right and it's almost unbelievable really until people experience it I like to discuss with mom's first the understanding and I call it the 50/50 highway you have a system that's built on that right it's supposed to meet that bell curve of the society that it's serving so you know 65 plus percent let's say fit within that norm where 50/50 is probably appropriate right joint decision-making is probably appropriate but that doesn't work for everybody right and moms find themselves protective moms find themselves in the bookends of bookends where we represent I think it's less than 3% of cases so you can see how the system is designed for 50/50 and they have a strong presumption of that it's 50/50 prove it to me otherwise and so when you're entering this 50/50 highway with tons of lanes you're the wrong way driver right you're the one that's saying I don't agree with 50/50 that wouldn't be safe and it puts you on the back foot from the beginning because the system is going to be maligned against that and dad is going to align himself with this 50/50 presumption right I just want to be a dad I just want to parent my children I just I have rights I'm entitled to 50/50 and so now dad's aligned more with the system than you are and you're tracking against professionals judges systemic norms even laws the 50/50 presumption in a lot of states so you enter the system you're claiming abuse and you're claiming on safety for yourself and your children father has a built-in argument which is alienation and that he'll he will claim that he will claim that you're alienating the children not facilitating a relationship you're thwarting you're interfering with his relationship and instantly this aligns him more with the system it creates darvo on a systemic scale so for those of you who don't know that term that's deny attack reverse the victim in a fender and he does that quite well by claiming the alienation against you so he reverses the victim in a fender and it puts mom on trial it muddies the waters because now you're expending all your focus and energy and your efforts proving that it's not true I'm not alienating I just have safety concerns right and now dad is able to create this whole circus that siphons energy and focus away from his perpetration why is dad not on trial for everything that he's done historically and presently and why am I up here defending that I'm not alienating I'm not facilitating you know I am facilitating a relationship I'm not thwarting I just have safety concerns can we pivot back to the perpetrator and oftentimes this argument just gets more and more layered with complexities because he's not only claiming the alienation now he's pathologizing mom and claiming she's crazy and she needs a psyche belt and for most moms that has been a historical priming already of this argument in the pre-separation phase of your crazy your hormonal all of those kinds of things oh your postpartum and I'm going to use that against you and now it's being carried out on this legal stage which is really scary because what he's doing is setting it up to make you look like you're an unfit mom and now you have another barrier to overcome you have to reclaim your credibility you have to prove that you're stable you have to prove that you're a fit parent and can we all just recognize how offensive this is because every mom that I have worked with at least in my community of women is a great mom we've we don't even have anything that would ever point to us not being a great mom and now you're reading these claims of how you're so unstable you shouldn't even be a fit and proper parent for your children and you're worried if that's going to gain traction and this the horrible thing about the alienation strategy is that the more mom claims unsafety and abuse and the more she's asking for limitations on parenting time and decision making the more it plays into his alienation argument where dad can point the finger and claim c c c her motives are just to deny me a relationship and a role in this child's life and she's not facilitating and she's not co-parenting so it's like this built-in circular argument where the more that you are harping on the safety or the unsafety and the abuse the more you're doing quote unquote doing what dad's claiming you're doing and then he hijacks the the language right that's a that's another very very common tactic is to really weaponize the terminology that is within the legal context so best interests of the children co-parenting facilitating a relationship and that really the translation of his arguments that you're not doing all of those things you're not acting in best interests you're not co-parenting and you're not facilitating can really be reduced down to she's not giving me what i want when i want it how i want it therefore she's not doing those things and you have to now work extra hard to reclaim what does best interest mean what does co-parenting mean what does facilitation of a relationship mean and so all of these layers become the burden for mom not the burden for dad yes wow that is just that is so insightful and you know isn't it interesting how they use terminology to manipulate so well i always say that anytime an abuser gets too much exposure to terminology whether it's through therapy whether it's through even an abuser program i always say they will use it that is their mindset that i mean that's just how it works and you think the abuser program is going to help them the couples counseling is going to help which i never recommend because abuse is not a couple's issue and it's not a marriage issue it's a them issue so the waters are already getting muddied from the point that maybe some of those things are even happening pre-separation with hey let's go to couples counseling i'm making a new promise to you that we're going to repair the marriage or the relationship and um you know i was a victim of you know with my ex-abuser he would he would tell me that i needed to go get mental health help or i needed to go to the doctor to get evaluated to see what was wrong with me that we couldn't whatever and so i was already i don't even have kids with him but i can see how that starts to happen pre-separation where you're already being told you need to be evaluated you're crazy medically mentally whatever it is these are very real things yeah and you bring up a really good point with wherever they go whatever environment whether that's you get involved with the children's therapist you get involved with even his own individual therapist or you go to couples counseling pre-separation or you get it god forbid you get ordered to family therapy in court in the court process i think about that but whatever environment a custody evaluator a parent coordinator whoever you're involved with that becomes the new playbook they are looking it's like data mining they go into an environment looking to data harvest however they can to weaponize manipulate the language use it as their new playbook to really have a new playground to operate in and through and to muddy the waters to try to posture for this new person there's all kinds of things that they will do so you need to be very aware of that but i i'm totally with you on the therapy that is one of the most unsafe things you can do in an abusive relationship is go to therapy pre-separation i talk to moms all the time about that yeah me too and knowing that the water's already getting muddied pre-separation in the sense that maybe they're even questioning if they're the abusive one they're doubting their own judgments they're already in that place of am i even seeing this right am i even seeing this right at all are you finding that once they get into this place of then okay mom's on trial now she's having to defend herself are you finding that they're still struggling with those feelings of keeping up their stamina with like do i have it right for sure throughout this process for sure because the threat of using gaslighting in an institutional manner right through the legal process because that's what's going to happen with opposing counsel they are going to manipulate they're going to create tricky questions to try to back you into a corner to over generalize to oversimplify things down and to delete very complex layers that have to be taken into account right because this happens on a human level this is not me coming into a court system as a one dimensional figure where you can strip me in my humanity and just completely disregard that there was feelings involved this was happening like all at once maybe maybe within the context of a day because when you talk about things within court too it can be very difficult because it's seen in isolation and it's not seen as part of a broader context of what an entire day might look like or an entire week for one of these moms right do you know what the pressure is like to live in an environment like this to not know who's coming home or how they're coming home to self-police to have your space so narrowed that you can't even have room for action or you're having to monitor and pivot in your environment constantly to avoid conflict or the next escalation and so when you get into that environment and somebody's now questioning you i think there's even i don't know what the statistic is on it but there's research studies that show that it is more impactful in a negative manner to recount your lived experience while somebody is trying to demolish it on the witness stand than it is it's more traumatic than the original event and i can attest to that i've been through that so many times and to put a woman through that continually right because usually these process of being through the legal system is not it's not quick it's multi-year it's many hearings it's trials it's depositions it's all kinds of things and so you're constantly explaining yourself over and over and over again it's it's very exhausting and when you speak to the endurance that's needed and the perseverance it is absolutely a test of those things and that's where coaching and having that support system really bolsters your ability to withstand this and to be able to be successful and not have your story weaponized against you because you were talking initially in your question to me about confidence really do they find themselves less confident the more that they're under duress under pressure being questioned about these things and you do start to see most of us have never encountered the legal process right so we've never most moms that i work with have not even had a traffic ticket that's landed them in court and so we've watched tv maybe maybe that's the best interaction we've had with the court system and you quickly will learn how ugly how tragic how horrible this process is and what you will have to endure and it does drive fear it does make you feel like oh no will i be able to give a ready answer about this situation especially not having a skill set to even know how to deliver under oath testimony in such an environment yeah and i think one of my biggest head scratchers is that these judges and these professionals it's almost like are they not living in the same world we are because i feel like there's been so much awareness around coercive control and so much education around it in recent years and yet i'm like how is this still being missed are they not where are they where are they it's it's that's my confusion that's a difficult one though because statistics actually are showing us that many of them aren't educated unfortunately even the american bar association i forget what the statistic is i maybe i'll have to look it up and we can post it in the notes of the podcast but it shows us that they are grossly uneducated on coercive control domestic violence abuser tactics and i was talking about this with another client recently you have to understand they come to the bench or they come to their guardian at light and position or their custody evaluator or their parent coordinator role with their lived experience in their worldview how many people have truly interacted with this on a firsthand basis right probably not very many most of the people within the context of even my world when i was talking to friends or family members or people within a faith community it's almost unbelievable right because if you haven't experienced a person like this you kind of tilt your head and you're like really okay so they come to the bench with their worldview of what a parent should or shouldn't be doing they come to their bench with their own worldview about whether that's sociocultural norms that's religious perspectives how does one parent how does one comport themselves what do they believe on all these different levels and then they have to apply the law and many of them do lack the specialized knowledge i really do feel like there should be some kind of checklist from the very beginning that you put people through an assessment that are in front of you and if you start checking these boxes you get sent to a specialty court where these people are trauma informed they are coercive control trained and they are trained to look for and be able to judge accordingly what would be in front of them instead of the burden being on the victim to bring in expert testimony and try to educate the court and try desperately from the back foot it would be great if you didn't have to work so hard and you could be served in a compassionate way that acknowledges your position your vulnerabilities and already understands what's at play here what to look for and understands solution focused approaches that would actually help give moms relief and protection long term instead of keeping them you know attached to the system for so many years where you're just grappling for give me a little bit more give me a little bit more here of course because a survivor of abuse and a protective mother is already running out of stamina already running out of that gas to keep going it's unbelievable but if a protective mother or someone in the situation is already on that back foot from the start through the systemic design paired with the abusers tactics that are happening behind closed doors that they're still dealing with on a day-to-day basis what are some things they can practically do I mean what could it look like to be successful with taking those first steps when you're just getting your feet wet sure I always talk to moms about leveraging working from behind if you can acknowledge that from the beginning that that's kind of gonna be your playing field then we have a lot more acceptance to already work with right because if I can get you past railing against the fact that you shouldn't be on the back foot and this isn't fair that you're on the back foot then we can switch gears and we can be more solution focused and strategy oriented but if I have you continuing to rail against how unfair this is and how it's just not right and look what this is doing to me and look at the impact then we can't get over into the area where we can start implementing some strategy that does focus us towards solutions but really the first order of business is to gain that knowledge on how this system operates and get clarity on what the abuser is going to do so that you can anticipate it and how it will impact your case I always tell moms this statement what you do not know can and will impact your case and you don't get do-overs there's no magic eraser that I can hand you that says oh you really kind of should have done this this and this and you shouldn't have went to this professional and said these things and I can't really clean up your communication record with your ex because you're so reactive here we can start from where we are but it would have been better if I could have helped you with this skill set from the beginning because most of the relief that you pick up is going to happen in the beginning so it's imperative when you're in that really vulnerable fragile state that you get connected with the right legal team the right support those kinds of things so you don't make these mistakes early on that you kind of can't recover from but you've got to be strategic truly at every turn of the compass in and out of the courtroom with your behavior your communication your presentation interaction with third parties whether that's the children's therapist or the parent coordinator or the guardian that lied him or even your advocacy with your attorneys your documentation consistency and really your superpower to constantly avoid taking the bait of his continual provocation so again that's where that critical role of coaching comes into play and I just love to point out that this is not something you receive from your attorney and if you attempt to kind of garner this from your attorney it will not only just frustrate you but it will waste incredible amounts of billable hours so using the right people on your team for the right things is important you need to go to your therapist for the right things you need to go to coffee with your friend for the right things you need to pivot into coaching for the right things all of these people on your support team hopefully your safe support team really do have a critical role but use them accordingly no that's so important and I want to mention that there's a lot of compassion from both of us as far as those reactive situations I know we both understand so much what it's like to be in that situation where you reacted to your abuser and you're maybe like crap I messed something up or you know I prefer to call it and I think you mentioned this earlier just having a reaction sometimes I don't even call it reactive abuse because I'm like it's a human reaction and I know we both understand that so well so that can be hard it can feel like it put you on the back foot and I can see how that really gets difficult for people it does and how do you frame those quote-unquote exposures or less than optimal optics in your case and I talk with moms all the time we do most of the time with each mom I'm having at least one session where we handle things that look like contradictions so handling contradictions handling things that are probably going to be not understood because the more that you can gain clarity on it the more that you can express your humanity and the more that you take the air out of that balloon that's that gotcha moment that they're looking for of you know trying to prove this or isolate you down into this box that really doesn't fit the whole picture the more that you can do that and lean into it and also show that like yes these were some reactions I had but you won't find that as a pattern that's not who I am this is a product of my environment of what I was living in and I've really resourced myself since then I always tell moms the best thing that you can do with exposures or less than optimal optics truly is to acknowledge it I identify with it take it on don't evade it don't run away from it don't lie about it and just embrace it in front of somebody because it rehumanizes this very ugly environment that is is really trying to strip you of your humanity and instead you can acknowledge it and then show that like a responsible adult parent I have made changes and I have done that through divorce coaching I've done that through working with my therapist the court isn't expecting to see a perfect person they're expecting to see somebody who's willing to acknowledge things and evolve and change and grow right and a lot of times they're already operating off that brain fog again from from the abuse and I'm like a huge documenter I'm all about documenting and write things down that are happening and I'm just like all about that but what would you say like what role does documentation play in that pre-separation time is it something you even recommend where they're starting to write things down that are happening either for their own mental clarity or maybe they're preparing to maybe take that jump of separation because I know I'm like all about the notes but I don't know maybe you know what are your thoughts on that sure a lot of the women that find themselves coaching with me I can say are in conflicted positions and this was myself included where I might send myself an email or record a voice journal or keep notes in my phone especially when I was trying to figure out okay this is what happened here because later I know he's gonna say that that didn't happen right and I am I living in an altered universe yes I am okay with you but because you're doing this and I really didn't say this or do this right so I find that oftentimes moms get to that point where they're doing some of that but it often is inconsistent because most of the time as long as you're deciding to stay usually you're keeping that flicker of hope alive and you're still entertaining all of his promise making his future faking his apologies in quotations the abuse cycle of the love bombing the degradation the discarding and going back again most of the time every mom that I'm working with my and this is consistent with my own experience as well we're desperately trying to do everything possible to keep the relationship together and most of the time that involves you doing all the things right like you did everything the therapist said they gave you the homework and you're like I read the book I did the things I wrote the letter I went on the date night I did all of the things I changed my communication style on my approach and I used I statements instead of you statements I did all these things crazy yeah so you're doing all the things and then you're doing all of his demands too of like I need to be greeted at the door this way and you need to encourage me and validate me more and you need so you then you're like okay he said to do this so I'm doing all these things right and so the more that you're doing all of those things you're hoping for a transformation you're hoping that your relationship does return to the healthy safe relationship that it once was where there is love and you are feeling all of those things of being safe and authentic right but what happens with the documentation is the more that you're documenting the negatives and the bads and you're bringing that truthful awareness to like I can't really excuse this I can't justify it he did do all of these things the more it's a betrayal to you trying to authentically hope that there is repair or things to work on or improve in the relationship so I find that most times moms don't come to me with like look what I did I documented this complete record most of the time it's fragments and that's okay we can work with those things and that has total value but I focus when I get moms into my coaching space I focus on a timeline of events that does several things for moms it helps you gain clarity on how did I get here how did we get from A to B like what led me to this point of separation it also helps you understand your lived experience at a high level because if you don't understand it there's no hope that anybody else is going to understand it and it really does prepare you to articulate the dynamics and patterns of abuse within the relationship to any third party you encounter most of the time the first people you're going to encounter is your attorney and you need that attorney to understand so that they have a grasp on the severity they have the reasons why we're going to be jumping to the requests for parenting time limitations decision-making limitations who is sitting in front of me they need to know that and they need to know that in a condensed concise version not not a I'm going on a rant I don't even know I didn't come in prepared you need it very high level and you need it highlight real worthy that gives them that translation of your lived experience so that they can represent you well and we don't want it weaponized against you right because if you don't understand like I was talking about your exposures if you don't understand how to frame your exposures how to acknowledge them how to show that you've changed and made your own transformations then it will gain traction in court and it will be weaponized but that's not to say truly that preparing to leave is an important most of my focus when I'm helping moms in the pre-separation phase is gathering necessary documents creating that safety plan pairing and locating them with resources like therapists advocates dv agencies support systems finding the right lawyer access to their finances and then truly educating them on what will be coming their way in rapid succession once they meet that post-separation phase and then we really work on helping them gain the skillset necessary just to face that legal process and navigate all those different pieces yeah that's so important and one thing I dealt with a lot I kind of heard you mentioned something about this but a lot of times the abuser makes you almost feel like you hold the power in a way they'll be like if you would just greet me at the door this way or if you would just if you would just say this to me or say or build me up build up my confidence better than I would be able to be gentle with you I would be a good husband I would be this I would be that they almost make you feel like you're the one throwing it all away and for sure that's the reason I you know that's sometimes how it is but that's one of the reasons I started documenting was to try to see a pattern for myself of what was reality and just keeping it concise and I ended up using that in the legal process when I had to get a no-contact order and all this stuff but it's so important to be concise is what I have definitely seen but what is one thing you would say to the person who still has that flicker of hope and maybe they're asking is it even worth it and they're constantly still weighing that scale feeling like it's lose lose is there one thing you would just say to them in that moment yes yeah I really lean heavily on my own lived experience and then of course everybody that I work with pretty much echoes some similar sentiment to this and truly it is that when you reach this point where you're climaxed at that teeter point of like stay or go and it truly is rubber meet the road acknowledging how depleted and isolated and degraded and demoralized you are is so important and I had to really take stock of that for myself and evaluate that I truly don't have any hope of being the best version of myself and at the time for me truly I couldn't even put it in terms of valuing that I couldn't be the best version of me for me I had to say to myself I have no hope of being the best version of me for my kids because that was what was going to thrust me into some kind of momentum that I could hold on to and actually say I'm gonna leave because I had devalued myself I had partnered with what my abuser had done and I didn't value me right at that point I was like I don't care if he treats me that way like as long as I can keep the kids safe right because that's how far it had gone and I really realized that leaving did give me hope right even no matter what I was gonna face with new abuse different abuse new challenges new uncertainty I still had the ability to separate myself begin to recover and restore and then show up for my children in the way that I wanted to right and so with everything that I had been through and truly being five years post separation at this point I can say that everything I've had to endure and sacrifice which has been painful very painful I'm thankful every day I would not change my mind I would not have said no I think I should have stayed I think that would have provided more safety there's been hard moments there's been lots of hard moments but yeah if I had to weigh it it's a no-brainer but I know what it's like to be reduced down to that moment where you just are so clouded with your judgment the trust you have in yourself the confidence you have in yourself even the value like I mentioned you don't even value yourself enough to say I'm worthy of leaving you know I had to do it for my kids and then slowly I had to rebuild that value in myself of like no I was I was worthy of leaving too and being able to be that parent that I want to be despite the challenges I'm facing is worth it all that's so amazing and I know that's going to be so helpful for someone so speaking of the woman who's recently left the abusive relationship where there's high conflict separation and they're feeling that defeat what are some of the most common barriers or entrapments that they're running into that post separation time where the abuse may still be present sure one of the biggest things that moms face is an unexpectedly long legal process usually multi-year so the endurance we've already mentioned previously it the endurance that it takes really is a true test of your perseverance but I know I remember for myself I googled how long does a normal divorce take or an average divorce take it's like six to 12 months and google is where so many people start I started googling what is abuse what is yes yes yeah yeah absolutely and so that for a mom who finally got the courage to leave and then you're like wait a second what like my relief is going to be years in the making I just she may have spent five to ten years trying to leave this person and now you're telling me it could take years before I see relief and protection and that's a like that's a question mark wow that's hard to face right in the post separation phase because there's nothing quick that's going to happen and another abuser tactic is to delay the process right so they will intentionally do all kinds of things to delay the legal process drag it on and that creates less access to relief as well and then all these players involved in the process right I didn't know that there could be so many people I'm like when do we just go to court and tell them the facts that's another big thing so you have all these custody evaluators guarding at lidem's parent coordinators medical professionals it's another full-time job just to manage the discovery process and the interrogatories you have to answer and the deposition you have to show up for and now I have to communicate with all these third parties and I don't even have the skill set for this right and I don't have time for it and it's just a huge demand on your time energy emotions and your resources and then really how ugly the process is I think moms get a taste very quickly of how ugly it is by reading their motions that are being filed undergoing under oath testimony maybe depositions those things like that it really is a character assassination that wears on your spirit especially when you're just encountering this over and over in that multi-year journey yeah I can't even imagine it's again there's so much that you don't even know what you don't know and that's such a scary part I didn't have children with mine but like even on the process of going through the court process with his domestic violence charges and just I didn't even know who I was working with I was like who am I talking to what I mean one time he had a private investigator call me to ask to drop the no contact order I didn't know if if I should talk to this person there's so many things that get thrown your way in post separation abuse that you even feel frozen because you're dealing with so much confusion and you just you don't even understand who all the players are like you said sure and most moms have this sentiment too that they can identify with where they think all they have to do is get in front of a judge and tell them their story like once I do that okay that's gonna be it and you are quickly disenchanted with that process because that is not what needs to happen I remember thinking that myself okay once she hears my story okay I'm not gonna have to repeat this I'm not gonna have to repeat versions of this we're not gonna have to revisit all this data and it just keeps coming and coming and coming and the more they delay the more content there is to even talk about post separation stuff and then how do you tie post separation to the pre separation dynamics so that you're bringing in the pulling of the thread from the whole theme right of I've endured this pre separation and look what's happening post separation so it can be very difficult especially when you're hit with those realizations early on and you're like no I thought it was this way or I thought I was gonna get to the finish line quicker or this was gonna be my exit stage left and there's there really isn't that kind of a opportunity for you yeah they're like surely once I just show them what I have surely it'll go the way I think and then it's that disappointing feeling like really like you just that that's sinking your stomach I would imagine but how can they best arm themselves as finding the right lawyer who's actually a good fit who they feel has a grasp on the situation or should they even should they even be looking for a lawyer who understands all the details of their situation or is it most important to find someone who you know just really is a go-getter like what are they looking for here sure this is an important question because oftentimes I find that the majority of moms that I've worked with and myself included made this decision or arrived at that climax of I'm finally going to leave in a more quick time frame right it wasn't like I'm anticipating leaving for six months so now I'm going to start preparing it got to a watershed moment and now is the time to leave and so now you're scrambling to find that lawyer so I like to tell moms for anybody who's listening that maybe pre-separation or may still have an opportunity to capitalize on your temporary orders I would love to drop this piece of information into your bucket and then I will absolutely field the question about lawyers and some of my favorite questions to ask lawyers to help you get a better understanding of who's in front of you and how they could serve you but the early phase of your process directly after leaving is when you have the chance to set the tone for your case and pick up as much relief and protection as possible do not ever let a lawyer tell you oh the temporary order hearing is just a quick hearing it's no big deal it is a big deal that is the largest myth that moms encounter all the time and then the other thing that they typically encounter is this advice that oh like we don't need to go in there with DV out the gate with domestic violence and all these claims yes you do because you don't do that in the beginning it's going to be very hard for you to pick up that thread later on and it's going to look advantageous like now she's claiming abuse now she's claiming unsafety how come she didn't bring this forward in the beginning so you want to come out the gate strong with your claims and you want to come out the gate strong asking for as much as possible I had a lawyer one time tell me that 90% of what is achieved in the temporary order so that's what the judge rules on in that temporary phase and the temporary order hearing is designed to stabilize the family unit right it's designed to put parenting time into place it's designed to make the choice on decision making of who gets what are you guys going to be joint are you going to be sold does somebody get final whatever that dynamic is going to be there they'll put professionals in place like a parent coordinator or you know start different process like a custody eval and they'll put financial things in place as well like child support those kinds of things and so I heard from a lawyer that in his practice 90% of what was achieved in that temporary order also became the final order because it's very hard once you've been given that relief to get it taken away there might be some increases to parenting time but if you just go in there and think it's kind of like uh it's not a big deal you're probably going to get more close to that 50/50 highway approach and once 50/50 is in place all the moms that I have that are working on modifications can tell you this once that's been in place it is extremely hard to get that redacted or reduced down to less parenting time so you want to come in strong and you want a lawyer that understands how important the temporary order hearing is but some of my favorite questions for interviewing your lawyer and these are not this is not a comprehensive list it's just designed to give you some context and if you desire to work on that further we can absolutely set up a session I help moms prepare for these types of interviews and debrief on them to help them make decisions all the time but one of my favorite questions is what is your experience in representing mothers who have escaped abusive relationships both non-physical and physical and have you been successful that's a huge question right are they familiar with domestic violence are they familiar with non-physical approaches to domestic violence and have they been able to be successful on behalf of moms and what are the barriers I could expect when I'm seeking to limit dad's parenting time and decision-making due to the patterns of behavior that are present so my thought in that question is to really see if that lawyer can articulate all these barriers that I just lined out for you guys earlier in the show if they can't articulate that they are not going to know how to defend you how to maneuver how to represent you well and get you past those barriers so that's kind of a trick question that really shows are they we we just asked you do you have dv experience and are you successful and they could be given you the run around there but this next question is really going to be a truth teller of okay let's see the next question is what's your position on alienation claims if they align with the alienation industry they are not your lawyer because we are going to be saying that alienation claims are pseudoscience that is junk science from Richard Gardner and I could give you a whole bunch of information on why we don't align with those claims but if they align with them how are they going to defend you against them because they're using that with other clients that should never be used and it should be banned from being used what would you do first if I hired you tomorrow and wanted to initiate filings so boom off the bat we want to know what their strategy would be are you prepared to help me establish domestic violence from the beginning this goes back to what I just talked to you guys about in the temporary order a lot of lawyers will discourage you from it and say oh no we don't want to upset the judge and we don't want to this like we just want to focus on custody and I'm like it is a direct relationship to custody that's why we're bringing it up there's a reason why I'm sitting in your office and why I've left this person and that has to be factored in this is a big question too because do you have experience working with court professionals like a guardian at lidem or custody evaluator and do you have experience overcoming unfavorable reports to mothers oftentimes mothers do receive unfavorable reports from these people because again I just was talking to you guys about that 50/50 highway and how the systems designed they want to align with that they don't want to align or understand our position so in the event that you get an unfavorable report how are we going to defend against this this can't be the nail in my coffin I need to know that you have experience overcoming this and then what can I expect when communicating with you on response times and calls emails meetings those kinds of things because a lot of times if they are going to tell you they don't have a great response time you're probably going to lack a lot of personal connection with your lawyer and you will be probably put into a system that's pretty run of the mill you're another file on my desk and do you want that in your lawyer do you want somebody who is personally customizing your case and working with you in that in that very personal way and most of the time moms want that right so those are some of the questions and then some of the red flags you were talking about do you want to go get her well one of my red flags is like shark lawyers right that are amping you up they're bringing in aggressive tones they're promising you outcomes and they bring in that really fighting energy and I'm really looking for somebody who's more educational and assertive firm in their approach but they're realistic right they're not promising me things the narcissist often hires the shark lawyer we don't want the shark lawyer that's willing to do anything or act in any manner to try to get me an outcome I want the respectable lawyer that has integrity has a reputation within the community and represents clients well and respectfully so that's a big red flag for me and poor listening skills is another one if they're interrupting you frequently and not listening and they're just trying to superimpose whatever it is that they normally say to people in consults that's a red flag for you too yeah it's like when you go to the doctor and they haven't even listened to your full what's going on and you're like well wait how do you know how do you know they're right they're right approach here it's they're just following their computer they're gonna computer yes yes yeah but I think so many people get really stressed with knowing what questions to ask like you said so it's really helpful to hear that do you coach with people to even game plan for when they're going into finding the right lawyer and all of that yes yes and and then we typically debrief afterwards when they've been through their consults so that I can help them understand what happened in that consult what action steps do we take from here do we go and consult with somebody else or how does this person compared to this other consult that you had who is rising to the top here and who's a better fit and sometimes I already have moms that have lawyers but we're evaluating do we need to choose a different lawyer so that's happening too in the coaching space okay for sure how can they stay hopeful when they feel like the judges or people surrounding the whole situation again don't understand course of control they don't understand what's happening post separation abuse how can they stay focused through all the brain fog and really just stay focused on what their ultimate goal is because I think it's so easy to get sidetracked on a million different things you know do you recommend that they really keep their eye on the ultimate prize or do they get should they fight a million little battles like what does this look like yeah that's an important one we're definitely playing the long game and I talked to moms a lot about that in our mindset work when we're coaching too and we got to discipline that disappointment at every turn of the compass but one of the things and I've mentioned this earlier in our show but going in with the understanding that you are going to be misunderstood okay we know the system isn't educated we know they're on the 50/50 highway we're accepting that we are the wrong way driver so if you can start there it's not as offensive I'm not going to say it takes away all the offense because there's a lot of things to be offended about but it will limit that to where you can pivot into that other space I was talking about of like okay that's a given but now I'm going to be over here and I'm going to be solution focused and strategy oriented and I'm going to discipline that disappointment when I encounter it that's not to say that we just act like it doesn't exist and you know go about our business but when you encounter it I've got to discipline that disappointment because this how can I make this serve me and when you're working with all these different professionals whether it's the judge whether it's parent coordinator you've got to tailor your presentation and your articulation of your lived experience even your lines of questioning with your attorney to contain a clear and accurate portrait of the patterns of behavior your motions should contain all of this all of this should be on repeat in a thematic way with everybody you're encountering with every question you're answering with everything that you're doing as far as your interviews your advocacy efforts all of that should be working towards that ultimate goal and sometimes it's imperative and appropriate to bring in an expert to educate the court or even educate your lawyer if you don't bring in an expert to educate the court maybe the very least you do is to have your lawyer consult with a course of control expert for their own benefit and understanding what's at play how does it manifest how can they effectively represent you and your children in court and what kinds of solutions should we be asking for like what is congruent with what she and the children are experiencing and what is an appropriate measure of mitigating this in the future or finding a solution for the parenting time the decision making the issues that keep coming up and then I always encourage moms keep going you really can win incrementally I have literally had horrible days in court I've had professionals maligned against me who wrote reports that said all kinds of things that were not helpful to me and did not represent the truth but it did not keep me from receiving my ultimate outcome so sometimes you lose those battles but you have to look at winning wars and so perseverance is where it's at persevering comes largely through that necessary skill set that I was talking about through coaching and the necessary support to see it through even on the hard days even on the days where you're like I'm thrown in the towel I'm done I think this is it I can't take it anymore how do I keep advancing the ball even when everything I'm seeing is giving me feedback that this is horrible it's not going well I should just give up how can I have somebody speak victory back into my life sing my song of victory to me when I'm in my defeat place and give me that perspective when I need it most that's so helpful for someone here I know like but even just hearing something like that is so encouraging when you're in the thick of it for someone who might be headed either pre-separation or they might be heading into the process and maybe they've been severely financially abused or they just feel like they have nothing to work with do you know if there's any free resources that will like help them review maybe like a court statement or does the DV hotline do that do you know of any resources that could be easily accessible in that way yes so actually I will send you after we get off of this podcast interview I will send you a post that I made up all about free resources so that you can link it straight into the the notes for everybody but one of my favorite resources that I direct moms to is the battered women's justice project and that is simply bwjp.org and they have advocates there that will work with you to help you understand your lived experience at that high level they actually developed these worksheets that are called the safer worksheets and they're considered the gold standard in quantifying and qualifying what you and your children have lived through so again we need to tell the court how much it's happening and what is happening right what is the quality of what's happening and they developed this checklist that's designed to be used by you by your lawyers by professionals involved in your case and then it also filters them into solutions that if these things are present here's what would be congruent requests right for relief and safety but if you have any questions about the safer worksheets how to fill them out the battered women's justice project is an amazing resource for you they will connect with you if you're looking for research articles I remember when I was going through my process I was looking for specific things to do with coercive control and law enforcement because I was divorcing a law enforcement officer and she helped me greatly by sending me all kinds of articles I needed to help me gain clarity on what was happening there and they for anybody who is divorcing a law enforcement officer they actually have a whole manual that they've created through the battered women's justice project on how do law enforcement batter and what does it look like and what barriers are you specifically up against in addition to everything else so there's a lot of free resources through them and I have found them to be very helpful for my clients even the ones I'm working with and coaching we use the battered women's justice project and then if you need free resources that's a great one and then I will link that other resource in the the notes below but there's a few things that you can do to help yourself gain some understanding gain access to some kind of help right we're all looking for what is going to move the needle and I don't want to send you to places that is just going to be frustrating but there are some places that can really help you understand what you're dealing with and give you that skill set as well that's so helpful thank you so much for mentioning those resources and I will link that in the description below do you have any last word of hope just for someone who's getting like oh I just can't keep going I just can't this is this is so unbelievably overwhelming do you have any last word of encouragement for them sure whenever I encounter moms who are feeling like they're at a stuck point of I I really don't know if I can keep going here or what is the right thing to do right they're stuck in that confused place one time I had somebody tell this to me and so I've used it frequently because it's a stark snap you out of it right it brings you instant clarity and the question that I ask myself or ask clients is if this was your child standing here telling you this very situation and they were encountering all of these things what would your advice be to them would you tell them to quit would you tell them oh nope you need to persevere here this is how I'm going to support you in doing so it also not only helps you gain clarity on should I keep going or should I quit but it also helps you find what it is that you need most in that moment because if you do ask the question what kind of support what I think my kid needed in this moment if they were standing here looking at me saying these things and it's a way for you to get in touch with that space that you might not have been able to connect with of like I can't even see what I need right now because I'm just so exhausted so fragile but if you put in that perspective and you put your parenting hat on a lot of times moms can instantly identify it and so that's what I would tell you to do and I would tell you to connect with safe support as well because there are a lot of hard days for this and this journey is not meant to be walked alone no that's amazing advice and I know that's really going to speak to someone who's listening who's in the thick of it right now and I just think this was such a great episode just packed with so much value from you again I really admire your whole coaching business your whole website and just how you help women with so much heart and care for those of you who may be interested in coaching with Rachel her Instagram is momswithswords and her website again is greaterthingstocome.com so she helps with both that pre-separation and the post-separation through the legal process and anything we talked about today so thank you so much for coming again and this is really going to help someone thank you so much for having me