Navigating Small Group Dynamics: Attendance, Metrics, and Health

Hello and welcome to SGSquared. Pastor Steve Gladen pulls from over 25 years of small group ministry experience to encourage and equip listeners like you to lead small group ministry. So let's listen and learn together. Welcome to SGSquared, Steve Gladen on small groups. We're here with Steve Gladen himself, Steve. Can you believe we are in September already? Man, I tell you, fall is so wonderful, especially when you're trying to escape the heat up Mississippi. But believe it or not, I'm still in Orange County for a little bit. So it is, let's let's just focus on this. It's college football and that's all that matters. That's right, the season is here and for nerds like you, you and I, a college football nerds, it sure makes the year a little bit more fun. Yeah, we all, we both come into a going, we made it through the off season. And now that I'm living in SEC country, whoof, whoof, it is another religion down here. Ohio State fan living in the deep SEC territory. Yeah, that's kind of, that's got to be, it's got to get you a little nervous in the fall season. But they love me so much, they love me so much with all their banter. And what's with where you're at, what's their top team down there? Well, there's, there's two schools in Mississippi, Mississippi State and University of Mississippi. The old, the, the rebels, old miss is the rebels in Mississippi state as the Bulldogs. Those are the two that Jesus ordained in Mississippi. But sometimes you get the creep from LSU and Alabama and, you know, different things like that. So one other question I got to ask you, Steve, so being that you've spent what the last 25 years of your life in Orange County, California and you're now deep in the south, like what's, what's one big culture shock to you, whether it's the weather, the food, anything, just give us something, west coast to the deep south. They, they love butter. That's, that's clear. The humidity is a real thing. But you factor those two things out and really, you know, you can eat healthy down there. It's not a big deal. So, but, you know, I must confess, there's some, some restaurants that that cook it up really strong. But, you know, you get all that past all that and there's, it's a lot of similar stuff. I tell you, Mississippi gets a bad rap. I mean, it's, they need a better PR person because it's really good. But I don't want to hype it up too much because I want to buy a house down there first at a low price. And then, then, you know, let the prices rise because it is really the equivalent of like moving to Nashville before Nashville became Nash Vegas. It's, you get the right, you know, city officials in there and rebuilding Mississippi and Jackson. It could take off. It's beautiful down there. Just not in July, August and September. You factor out those months. Then it's Orange County all the way around. So, it's beautiful. Well, in this episode, now that we are into the fall season, we're talking about attendance, metrics, and health. And so, is there any way you want to set this exciting new show up? Yeah, I mean, it is something, you know, being in groups for, you know, so many decades. I mean, I think I'm three and a half decades into, you know, being entrenched in, you know, running groups, been leading small groups longer than that. But, you know, a personal small group. But, you know, the thing that I would say is there's a couple things that I would, you know, as small group pastors or the point person as we're heading into that, there's so often our identity gets wrapped around, you know, how many groups we have, you know, all the numbers that you can play into that. And that's why we really wanted to focus this, this episode, you know, an attendance metrics and health because there's slippery slopes, but there's a couple of quotes I want to read to you that have disimpacted me, you know, this week, and it's one of them is, "Mr. Mystery Tees." That's going to be a long show, sorry Derek. "Ministry is what we leave behind after you follow Jesus." So as you're talking about your small group ministry, you know, everything about that and if I could rephrase the quote of saying, "small group ministry is what we leave behind after you follow Jesus." Is this realizing how important it is on your identity, on the authority that Christ is giving you and the life you live, is to understand that, you know, what you do in your personal life is really what's going to help in your small group ministry the best. And then the other quote right there is, "What we believe about life after death determines how we live life before death." And obviously the play on words there is, you know, after death and before death that you're doing, but a lot of times, you know, our priorities get stuck in the mundane of sometimes of church life and we need to separate it out of what's really important. And it really does set up the show because, you know, when you talk about stats and metrics and all that, your identity can quickly float into that and who you are can be sabotaged by that. And then the whole point of, you know, you get caught up in the grind of church ministry and sometimes you forget what you're living for. And that's where I'd like to set this up is by saying, you know, when I travel and trust me, I've almost got two million miles in the air, but when I travel, the last thing that comes into the pilots and the cockpit is a manifest. And on that manifest, it will always say the number of souls that are aboard that plane. And if your airline is concerned with knowing the number of souls, how much more we should be concerned about the number of souls that we have. Now, that starts the slippery slope because all of a sudden when you go to the numbers of souls, you can be very caught up in the whole numbers game. And it's a little bit dicey, but it's important for you to understand that you're in the soul business and how you take care of those souls is what, you know, Jesus is going to look at you at the end of time saying, what did you do with what I gave you and understand what what you've been given, but hold that in the balance of not only how you live about managing those souls, but also making sure that in your own life, your own soul is protected and that you're taking care of in this. So as we dive into this, they're going to, you got a ton of questions, but as we dive into this, it's going to be really important that you kind of look through this setup of understanding that your small group mystery that you leave behind is after you follow Jesus and looking at your own personal soul care and then understanding what you believe about life after death determines how you live life before death. And it's just going to be super important that you understand we are in the soul business and don't forget that as we talk through all these little things about attendance and metrics and numbers. Prep reminder there. So as we're starting out fall here and as all group ministry leaders are thinking about numbers and growing their small group ministry when we're thinking about these numbers, what are we exactly looking for? Well, I think the first thing is it's important they understand that numbers aren't a bad thing. I would get it all the time at Saddleback is like numbers numbers numbers all you think about is numbers and you know things like that and and what I would look back on is saying that you know it's numbers aren't a bad thing. In fact in the Old Testament there's a book called Numbers and so you know God was pretty concerned about numbers and souls and everything like that and we understand that you know every every numbers connected to a soul that's connected to a story that you know we need to figure out and know but I know sometimes people would also come to me when we were talking about you know you know what's the attendance and what what are the metrics we're looking for. At the lot of times that people would say to us is you know well we don't care about the quantity we care about the quality of the people and what I would say is that as you're listening through this episode they don't have to be enemies of each other. I mean I have two kids and let's just suppose we went on a camping trip and let's just suppose that I've been northern California somebody misplaced both children for a little bit and so let's suppose that that somebody was me just just you know for a story say and at least I go looking for both kids and we come back with just one kid we don't go well that was the quality kid so we can go home you know quality and quantity mattered in this little story and in the same way what I would say is that what I would love for you to understand and get in this whole episode and it's been a long lesson learned for me is that you have to focus on both both quality and quantity. And that's where your numbers and metrics can really play an important part of how you can take care of all the souls that the Lord is giving you, but also at the same time understand that there is a quality factor that you've got to play into this equation. So if numbers aren't bad then, then what then are we specifically looking for? Yeah, I mean, good question on that that side. One of the things that you got to look at for numbers, which obviously I don't think they're bad, is that they are indicators. And for those of you that are like metric nerds, there's lead and lag indicators that if you don't know what I'm talking about, you can dive into that and just put that in your search engine and learn about that. You know, I hope you start to get some trending pieces in your small group ministry. But on the more starting and the more foundational side of it is that you've got to use data as your friend. And I'm doing conferences always say, I mean, I know that Jesus is Lord, but one of the important things that you have to understand is that in the small ministry world data is Lord small L not the large L. And I in that you got to understand that data is your friend, but the same time you've got to start looking at and asking what, what is it that you're looking for? I mean, when you're getting data, what, what is it that you're trying to find and look for? Well said, so data is Lord little L, I love it little L data is Lord. So if numbers aren't bad and we're looking at the data, then when we're looking at the data, what are we looking for? What would we ask for to see in the data? Well, I mean, I think this is the great point where you as a small group point person, I would really push this to you and I can give you my experiences of what what I've had. But I know a lot of times that we look for stuff in big church, you know, it's like how many butts are in the sea and how many nickels are thrown in the plate. And sometimes we think that that is, you know, the end all be all, but as we saw through COVID, that wasn't the end all be all because it really shook up the church and really polarized the church in a way that it's never been polarized before. And so as you're looking at this, I would go back to what our premise is and that is about discipleship. And when you're looking at discipleship, I would ask myself, if I was looking for data, I would say what gets us towards that end in mind or what gets us towards being a disciple. And it kind of begs the question is, what is success for your small group leader? Because if discipleship is the name of the game, and I really hope that is, and I know in a lot of small group strategies, you can go after a connection strategy or discipleship strategy. And again, this is the quality and quantity piece. I think both are super important, but sometimes we leave it at the doorstep of one or the other. A lot of times in the connection strategy, you're just trying to get as many people connected in a group and that's your metric for hey, hey, you know, the small ministry is doing well. And unfortunately, a lot of churches look at that, like they look at the weekend attendance. But at the same time too, if you go to the polar opposite side and go strong discipleship, it is really about how many books you read, how many, how many practices you're doing in that, and what I would do is look for a blend of the two of figuring out what is discipleship. And since I've been, you know, down a pine lake, it's in Mississippi is really working towards what is that and disciple. And, you know, they're really honing in on those attributes of what are success. Maybe in the next episode, I'll have a better lock on that after I get back from a lead retreat we're doing together, but it looks like it's focusing on, you know, some qualities that we can put our handles on. And so when you're asking what do you ask has for an intent in in small group life, I would say ask for the things that help you measure discipleship happening. And that that is for us is talking more about an individual health assessment in a group assessment, which is what we did at Saddleback, it helps us get the quality and the quantity that is happening in there that we're looking for. And so we would, you know, go more towards looking at what the individual how healthy they are and the group how healthy it is and their mirrors of each other so that you want to be able to work on that. And so what I would say is look for what helps you measure discipleship and a lot of times we're stuck in our small room ministry of just measuring attendance and measuring attendance is the end all be all, but I have to ask yourself the question does attendance give you the health you're looking for and so you may want to look at what kind of data you're collecting. I like that does attendance give you the health you're looking for now we know a lot of our listeners take attendance right so talk to us about the attendance topic is taking attendance bad. Well, again, I wouldn't say it's a it's a good or bad it's an indicator of that, but again, it dives much deeper than butts in the seats, I look at my own small group and there's sometimes where we're not meeting or not everybody is there or is present, but it's how well you're taking care of them and how well you're helping them understand what discipleship is. And so it can be a leading indicator of will you have the opportunity to do that, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen and it goes back to the added added piece of saying health. If your metrics of discipleship are on health indicators health will get you the growth you're looking for or IE the attendance, but attendance won't necessarily give you health it's just like for myself if I go to church every Sunday, but I'm still partying all the time I mean my attendance record looks great and I'll get the gold star for you know going 52 weeks out of the year. But if I'm rotten on the inside then that's a problem and in the same way in small groups sometimes attendance can give you a false indicator would or what we call a false positive of saying oh they come all the time so they must be getting healthy and what I would say is you'd want to take that one step deeper, which is why we we're working on more of a health assessment and a group health assessment. To be able to get us to those places so that you know we can also know what of our what are some of our leading indicators, but personally I wouldn't die on the hill of attendance I would die on it more on how many health assessments are out there for the individual and how many group assessments are out there. So you've mentioned health assessment several times now so let's dive a little deeper into that you know for those who might be new to leading small group ministry when it comes to health can you kind of explain the health assessment that you refer to that you built on discipleship. Yeah you know at saddleback you know we had a health assessment and a group assessment that were very enlightening to the groups and again I would preface this by you you can do your best at getting things to your group but it's going to be up to them to take some ownership in it. It's kind of like with your kids you raise your kids as best as possible giving them the tools giving them the environment giving them the the opportunity and the foundation to be the children that you want them to be. But it's up to them to kind of take it and make it their own in the same way I'll preface this by saying with the small group will give them the tools and the resources and the curriculum pathway and all those things that will help them be healthy. Spiritually is where the church is going but we have to be able to they have to take some ownership in it and sometimes that's training and helping them move in it. But again for us where I would say at saddleback where we were and what I'm building at Pine Lake looking very different but very similar in some regards is that in at saddleback you know it was you know measuring off the five firms the great commission and the great commandment. And in some ways at Pine Lake it's measuring off different indicators also found in the great commission great commandment next chapter two but being able to see these metrics but here's the gist of it. Whatever your define or however you're defining it a disciple you can ask yourself the question what are the attributes that you're trying to assess and people and then in your individual health. assessment what you're trying to do is have questions that make them wrestle through those attributes that you're wanting. So for it's saddleback it was on worship, on fellowship, on discipleship, on serving, and evangelism. So for us because I spent you know almost 30 years all by itself you know working with that I'll kind of default to that a little bit as I'm still playing around and we're still trying to work as a team to define pine legs. But in that regard we would say you know what are the attributes of worship that would reflect people engaging in those activities. And then the same thing in fellowship, what is authentic community and how are people engaging in those activities? In discipleship we were looking for what are the what are the next steps that are people are taking and how are they engaging people to help them grow in that. In the area of serving it was more about how are you serving, how is your group serving and so there's you know health assessments with that. And then in the area of evangelism how are you engaging in personal local and global evangelism. So in the individual assessment you're asking questions but you're not asking questions just to ask questions you're asking questions to be able to give them a pathway to build a planner. And in the planner you're trying to find out okay which attribute are you trying to work on then what's a goal 30-day goal that you want to do to work on that and then who's going to partner with you to make sure you get there. And one of the things that this does is helps you learn more about is mentoring a one-person thing. One one person has all the answers or is mentoring multiple things. And what I found in the area of partnership is they're selecting mentors that will help them in a specific area. So the bottom line is in the individual health assessment. You're finding out where you're strong and where your growth areas are. And coming out of that you want them to figure out you know what's a what's a step where I can help somebody out and what's an area that I need to grow in. So you're trying to find you know how do I help and how do I grow. Coming out of the health assessment it's a great indicator across the church if everyone's using it. Fun fact in the early days of Saddleback when we were rolling this out when we had about almost I think a 17 or 18,000 health assessments done it was interesting that over 85% of the people self-declared themselves weak in the area of evangelism. So what do we need to work on while evangelism in that case. So that's the individual health assessment. The group assessment mirrors it. The shorter assessment whereas the individual health assessment was 35 questions. The group assessment was only 10 questions but reflecting on the same area. Two questions that were on the area of worship on the area of fellowship discipleship serving in evangelism. And so what that would do is when the whole group takes it it helps you understand you know where the group is deficient and where what they need to work on. And so when you're done taking the group assessment what you do is you have a three-part follow-through as the group leader. One is who is strong in in those areas that can help your group grow in the area and then what's a curriculum that we could possibly do that would strengthen us in that and then what's an activity we could do. And so you're giving the group steps and my my point with both of these is that if you want to go into the book smogers with purpose chapter 10 or if you have a leading smogers with purpose I think it's chapter three you can learn more about the health assessment and the group assessment. That'll take it much deeper but the point is is that I would much rather measure health than I would want to measure attendance. Not that one is worse than the other or better than the other but that they can work in tandem but instead of weekly trying to get attendance what I'd rather the group leader spend their time working on is has everyone taken a health assessment which we'd end up doing once a year and is the group assessment which we would do twice a year being able to engage them in those areas. So there's a lot on that you can always ping me at Steve at smogroomnetwork.com if you have more questions but the point that I'm trying to share with you is that when you're looking at attendance and metrics and health it's going to be really really important that your soul is set strong but that you have the tools in place to make sure you can make this happen so not sure if that may sense steric but that'll teach you for asking that question. That was great. You had mentioned two of your books in key chapters that have diagrams and basically everything they're looking for when it comes to the health assessment and the group assessment. Where can they get your books? Yeah obviously Amazon's kind of your best way to get it and it's smogrous with purpose and leading smogrous with purpose but if you having to be in the smogroom network and you're all access member if you're an all-access member you can actually get the the physical copies of of those that are in the book but ones that you could play around with and modify them to work for you. So navigate it in a couple different places. Cool and remind me how people can become an all-access small group network member. Yeah if you go on smogroomnetwork.com it's a great way for you to get there's so many things that are happening in the smog group network now. In the fall or this fall it coming up in October we're launching our weekly coaching calls too. If you're an all-access member it's just one of the many benefits of being a member of all-access that you can get and you can be a part of that weekly coaching call that can help you out. But if you go on smogroomnetwork.com there's all kind of information about becoming all -access and the things that will help you kind of get that and take it to that next step. Very cool. Well that is our first show of the fall season here on attendance metrics and health and we really hope this inspires everybody encourages you, equips you to lead better healthier groups and I'd Steve unless you have any other final thoughts we'll sign off here. Yeah just you know I would just say what are those attributes that are great for disciples to work through with that with your church leadership and you'll everything behind that. Sounds good. Thanks for listening everybody and we will see you next time. Help us everybody. Thank you for listening and don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. If you'd like to go deeper and get more resources or join the small group network just head over to smallgroupnetwork.com we'll see you next time.