Lunalove of the podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded. The hour-a-qual people of the Bungalong Nation and pays respects to elders past, present and emerging. Hello and welcome to Lunalove of the podcast. I'm your host your Darnalovine and today I've got an interview episode for you. I'm chatting with the beautiful Mia Medaferi from Greyrock Consulting and Mia is talking to us today about narcissists. Now I don't know about you but I have dealt with a few narcissists in my time and I don't throw that word around lightly. I know that many of us do and it's become part of everyday vernacular and we're talking about high conflict personalities but in this interview we do talk about what makes someone a narcissist, someone who has narcissistic tendencies and dealing with those high conflict personalities. This is Mia's specialty. Her business basically gives you guidance in navigating communications with controlling narcissistic or high conflict personalities. There was so much beautiful advice that she offers up in this conversation that I know really really resonated with me knowing how difficult it is to deal with narcissistic personalities. So if you've ever encountered a narcissist perhaps you're in a relationship with one now, perhaps you have an ex who's a narcissist, perhaps you share children with a narcissist, perhaps you work with a narcissist, perhaps you're friends, with a narcissist. Any of those options, this interview will be very helpful for you. If you are dying for some astrology, there is no astrology in this episode. We do talk about Mia's primary triad but if you are dying for astrology you might like to consider becoming a Luna Lover subscriber. There are three tiers that range from $5 to $20 a month and for the $8 and $20 tier you do get a bonus episode and in this week's bonus episode we talk about the astrology of the week which includes Venus moving into Aries. We also talk about 8th house Scorpio and Plutonian Energy which was a bit of a theme in Natal Chart readings last week and I also talk about what it means to be born on a cusp. So if that's of interest to you and you want to become a subscriber just click the link in the show notes of this episode. Otherwise continue listening for free and enjoy this interview with Mia Madagheri. Mia, welcome to Luna Lover the podcast. I like to start off every interview asking my guest what their sun, moon and rising sign is. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. My sun and my moon are Aquarius and my rising is Taurus. I actually read Mia's chart for her not so long ago. Did you resonate with all parts of that primal triad? Every single part it was unbelievable. Yeah. What part of being an Aquarius really resonates for you? I think the leadership, the warrior, the free thinker want to do things outside of the box that is me through and through. I think what got me in the reading was the contradictions because it's so me. It was unbelievable that reading. It's funny also your sun and your moon which are both in Aquarius are in the 10th house which is the house of career and what you do for work which is what we're about to find out now is very much in line with Aquarius energy too. Working with like-minded people, leading groups, leading the social consciousness towards a common cause. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it's fantastic. All right. So, Mia, can you let the listeners know a little bit about you exactly what it is that you do? Yeah, big my pleasure. My name is Mia. I'm the founder of Greyrock Consulting and Greyrock Consulting was created to educate and mainly in power and set free. I'd say predominantly women from dealing with narcissistic and all-hide conflict personalities, more from the nods in the arena of divorce and separation and leaving an intimate partner because they find all of a sudden that they are dealing with really aggressive communications. They don't quite know what's happening where it's all coming from or what to do about it and what they are in fact experiencing is that nothing they're doing is working. So, it gets really self-defeating. It becomes overwhelming. It's every day. It's on your mind all the time. So, what I've learned, I've also been a lawyer for or 16, 17 odd years in litigation, oddly enough resolving disputes as well. And then I've had my own experiences with these personality types, my own experiences of nothing I was doing working and then I went on a mission to understand everything I possibly could about them. And I realized there is absolutely a way to manage it. There is absolutely a way to reduce it. There is absolutely a way so that it is not owning your life and it's not the main story of your life. But there was no one actually helping people apply it and that's the hardest part. So, let's start right from the beginning because I think the label of narcissists gets thrown around a lot. What exactly is a narcissist? So, thank you for asking that because we're hearing it a lot now, which on the one hand is wonderful because it's bringing awareness. On the other hand, it can desensitize and people get a bit like, oh everyone's a narcissist these days. So, we don't want to be in that territory and we also don't want to traumatise people any further or make them feel that they're wrong when they probably experience the use of feeling that they're wrong. So, there is narcissistic personality disorder. Now, that is a clinically diagnosable disorder and it is diagnosed by mental health professionals. And there is this Diagnostic Static Manual and they go through that process. Now, that is a narcissist. Very, rarely are they diagnosed because there's a number of elements to it that a narcissist will never admit to. Right. How do you get them to have a diagnosis? How would you get them there in your family? Exactly. Well, one of the key parts is it must be causing them distress in their lives. I haven't ever met very many that say being entitled and getting everything I want is really distressing. I just have it. So, the truth of it, right? Okay. Interesting. So, you've got the diagnosis. Now, on the other hand, you have the word narcissism. That is not the diagnosis, but rather it is a description of, you know, the traits, the patterns, the personality. So, what you'll see in narcissism is, you know, it's more of a description and it's really important here to call out that it's a pattern. You know, someone gets angry and responds in a bad way, well, we've all done that and we all reflect and we apologise. You know, it is a pattern of these behaviours. So, it's low or little empathy. It's entitlement. It's grandiosity. It is, you know, my way or the highway type thinking, inflexible, blaming those sorts of patterns and they're very much externally driven. So, they derive their value not from the internal, but from the external and what people say and think about them and more often than not, their personal connections with people is because there is a gain in it for them. Okay. So, it's different. It's a different use of the word because it's not a diagnostic. Yeah. Can you suffer from narcissistic tendencies and not be a narcissist? Yeah. So, we all have narcissistic traits in the sense that we like a compliment or we like to be acknowledged. External validation feels great. Yeah. So, there are healthy traits, but then there is that line that you cross and when you start looking at no empathy, don't care that what I've just done has severely hurt you, Jordana. You know, that is when we get into that narcissism territory where it's maladaptive. It's not good for them and it's not good for the person they're dealing with. Riddle me this then, Mia. How is it that like when we exploit when we talk about a narcissist, they don't sound like a very fun person to be around. So, one would think that one would not be attracted to one in the first place, right? But there is an element in the beginning at least with the narcissist relationship, right? That gets you in. So, what's involved in that? And I say that from the perspective.
of having dated and worked for, I would say many narcissists, I'm not using them, lightly, yeah. - Yeah, if they had a sign on their forehead when they met you that said, I'm gonna destroy you, emotionally, psychologically, financially, sometimes physically as well. And these are all the things I'm gonna do to mess with you, you run for the hills, but they don't. And the word you will hear around narcissism a lot is the word covert, covert. They are covert. When you meet them, they're charming. You know, they often come across quite confident because they themselves believe that they are the gift to society. And so they come across confident, they're charming. They will say all the things that you want to hear. What they are incredibly good at, and it's a bit chilling when you really think about it, they are very good at listening to you to find what it is that they can say to you, to whoever you in, you know, and oh, growing up, you know, my dad really never said he'd love to me or something like that. (gasps) I would never do that. I can't imagine being someone and not telling them every minute of the day that I love them. And you're like, ah, you're a dream. You know, they are very, very good, but they're covert. They don't reveal themselves. - Is it a conscious manipulation on their part? Are they consciously thinking, I'm gonna use this information against this person one day? Or is it just this sort of like innate banking of data that works in their favour later? - Yeah, so this is when you get into that territory of who we're dealing with. Are we dealing with a narcissist proper? Are we dealing with someone who's gotten narcissistic traits? Are we dealing with someone who's high-complete? You know, it's quite difficult in that scenario to say yay or nay, but there are most certainly narcissists out there who are banking that information. (gasps) And they will use it against you. Absolutely, they will. - Do you mentioned earlier this lack of empathy? I think it's a really interesting point to make. Is this lack of empathy a choice to not empathise or like not be bothered to empathise? Or is it an inability to empathise? - And again, we are dealing with a spectrum. I think at the far end of the spectrum, they don't have empathy. So there's a fascinating man who did research. He's a lawyer too, actually. And he looked into sociopaths because in his career as a lawyer, he was like, who are these people that I'm coming across? We seem to be a right breeding ground for those types of personalities. And what he found was a sociopath is the development in the brain as a child. So once we get to, I think he said around the age of four, where that part of the brain develops, as a baby, you're in some evil mode. I've got to eat, I've got to sleep, I've got to survive. When your brain starts to develop that function of empathy and the emotional brain in sociopaths, that part of the brain never, ever develops. And from a particular trauma, or they're absolutely traumas, where this child sort of goes into survival mode. You know, it could be a parent that only shows love or care for that child when they achieve. You know, treats that child in a way where they can do no wrong. You know, there's a whole pile of things. Where you run into a bit of risky territory here as you hear that and people then feel sorry for them. And go, oh, there's poor things as a child, they suffered a severe trauma. Now I understand that, but when you look at everybody, we've all had stuff happen in our lives, but we don't grow up and then use it as a reason to abuse people and to control people and manipulate people. You know, most of us go on a journey where we go, okay, this has happened to us, I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to evolve from it, I'm going to have awareness of it. And how can I help me in my life with this? We don't go on to abuse people and then say, well, I had a traumatic childhood. So I guess the work that you do is to help people in situations where they have no choice really but to interact with an narcissist. I'm thinking the situations are like co-parenting. Perhaps even like workplaces, things like that. Family relationships as well, where those people are in your life. Now the ideal outcome is no contact. You never contact them, we'll see them ever again. Not everyone can do that, whether it be work, family, a partner and you've got children together. So, you know, what the most common recommendation is what they call to be a grey rock and hence the name grey rock consulting, where you are as boring as a grey rock. You know, you're just, people see grey rocks and they walk straight past them. Oh, you know, they're just so uninteresting, they lose attention. So what they do and I'll put it in the context of a separation, for example. So the ego is bruised, there's anger, there's a lot happening here. One of the worst things for these personality types, so when I listed all those traits before, at the very, very core of their entitlement and grandiosity, is extreme insecurity. And all that this entitlement and this bravado is their armour, so that you never ever see and so that they never have to see their own extreme insecurity. So often when people leave, they've seen who this person is, or they're seeing now narcissists or narcissism, they don't like it. Exposure is their Achilles heel, you know? So it actually exacerbates them, that they go up to a whole other level because you're either for them or you are against them and there's no in between. So what I saw happening and what I've experienced myself is that you start to then get bombarded texts, emails, phone calls, WhatsApp, social media, whatever avenue they can find. And there'll be communications where you're either bullied, intimidated. They're saying a whole pile of accusations about you that you're going, "I never did that, I never said that, actually you did it, not me." And what they're doing is they're wanting a reaction out of you because it gives them that feel, it feeds them, it energises them. So it doesn't matter whether your reaction is good, bad or ugly, they've got your attention. So the key with the communications is to be as boring as a grey rock. Don't respond. So hard. So that's the thing, it's like don't respond or be completely unemotional in your response. Yeah. That sounds so easy. Yeah, sure, no problems. But when someone is accusing you of something, whether it's a type of mother you are or father you are, or I'm going to do this with the children or whatever it might be, it's really hard to go, well, I'm going to put my emotions over here. And I'm just going to respond to the bits I need to. It's really, really difficult. So my passion in all of this, and I am so passionate about it because I know it works, is to help women and men because there are female narcissists out there, that is for sure. Yeah. Instead of it taking one, two, three, four, six years, if I can get them to that point in two months, six months, whatever time I can shave off that process, makes me the happiest woman alive because it means that they're free and it means that they're getting those emails and they're laughing their heads off instead of being in tears for three days and not knowing what to do. Yeah. I have a question for you. It's actually a question that was asked by a friend of mine who is in a separation from a narcissist and they share two children. And she has, she can manage him quite well now. Her fear is how her children are going to grow up with a narcissist as a father. And how much information she gives them in order for them to handle him because they're quite young, they're five and eight, I think. Yeah. Do you have any advice or recommendations for children dealing with narcissistic parents? Yeah, this is a really tricky area. And again, because you know, your children are your heart outside your body. You know, I can't just keep my emotions at the door in that space. You know, there's a number of elements to this. What will be really freeing and liberating is the day you accept that you cannot control what he or she says or does. You just can't and trying to ends up in a world of pain. So you cannot control that. A couple of other things that are really important in this space is all books, all psychologists, experts in the field in this area will say, children need one stable, [BLANK_AUDIO]
assistant, secure parent, one, one. So this is that child's journey for whatever reason. We don't know. And of course we want to wrap them up and protect them from every bad thing that could come their way, which is actually doing them a disservice in the long run. But one, that one parent, what's really important is it is not your job to lie to them, that is for sure, but they also don't need to be exposed to adult issues. They shouldn't be coming home and you're like, "Oh, your mum, she's a wet, what she said to that, do not ever, ever do that stuff because your children will sit there and go, but that's my mum, so does that mean you think I'm bad? Don't do that to your children." Now at that young age, you can answer things honestly then page appropriate way, but what is a really, really great tool to remember what they did to you, deny your emotions, deny your feelings, gaslight you, all that sort of stuff. They'll probably do that to your child as well, maybe on a different scale. So what's a really great thing to do as a parent is if they come back to you and they say, "Oh, you know, you know, dad said, "A, B, and C this weekend." You know, you can turn around and say, "Oh, okay, well how did you feel about that?" Because when they're in that place, there's no space for their feelings or their emotions. So it's reminding them, "You have feelings." How did you feel? What do you think? If they come back and they say, "Dad said, "You're a liar," for example. So instead of turning around and saying, "Well, your dad, he's this and he's that." The best thing you can do for that child is go, "Okay, that sounds like dad might have been angry in that moment about something." And sometimes when we're angry, we say things about people that we don't mean. You know, what do you think? You can always say, "What do you think about mum?" Or sometimes you can even turn around and say, "Well, I'll tell you who I am." And you tell me what you think, you know? I'm honest, I'm caring, I'm giving. You know, that's sort of a, so you are not personally attacking their mum or their dad. And you're bringing the focus back to them, their feelings and who you are. - Yeah. - You know? - Yeah. - It's tricky. - It's so tricky. - I remember talking to my therapist, oh, it was a user going now. And I had been dating a narcissist who had a child, not my child, their child. And he was a very different man with her than he was with me. And my therapist at the time said to me, "A narcissist will treat their children like an extension of them." Right? So quite often they will treat their children like kings and queens and princes and princesses because it's an extension of who they are and who they are is always most important. - Yes, yes. And if you've got more than one child, you will see, it'll become very clear the golden child because that is the child that reminds them of themselves. - Yes. - And then you'll have the child that is not like them. So you are navigating differently for both of those children. And the key in all of this as a parent is to understand that personality type because once you understand the behaviors that you're dealing with, you can navigate it for your children so much more effectively and you give them the tools because the reality is they need those tools because that is their parent. And unless they are in danger, unless something seriously bad is happening, they're more than likely spending time with that parent. - Yeah. - So you are going to be the safe place and what that often means as well is that when they come back to you, you're gonna get an explosion of emotions. And you're like, "Oh, what is this? I'm caring, I'm kind, I'm loving you and you're just exploding on me." You have to remember that for however long they've been gone, they've been put like this because they can't express their emotions there. It's not safe to express those emotions. They've been told that they're wrong or they're not right. Or like you said, if they're in the good books and they're the golden child, they learn very quickly what they need to do to be in the good books and what to stay away from. So you'll get an explosion and you just have to remind yourself, this is hard, it's exhausting, but this is happening here because they feel safe with me. - Yeah, they're tired. - If someone's listening to this and they're in a relationship with someone who they suspect is an narcissist, is there hope within that relationship? Can a narcissist maybe go to couples therapy and have some sort of improvement in their behavior or be able to see themselves through the lens that others see themselves or is it just a no-hope situation? So there's a lot out there about, can they be healed, can they be fixed? Can they go to counseling and work on themselves? People get quite affronted when people say no, they can't, 'cause people say no, you can't say that about people. Now the key about changing is you have to want to change. A lot of them don't want to change. So there's your first sort of big hurdle. A lot of information out there will say be very careful with couples counseling because they will use it to retraumatize you, to regas like you, to tell you all the things you're doing wrong and to tell you all the reasons why all the problems are your fault. Now if you've got a counselor or a psychologist who is not aware of narcissism and they exist, it's mind blowing, but they exist, it will be so much worse for you. 'Cause they will sit there and they'll be like, "Well, you're done and why aren't you doing this?" And he's just wanting to hug you. (laughing) And you're like, "Oh!" So be very careful. Now there is the most brilliant book in the whole wide world. Dr. Ramani is one of the world's leading psychologists on narcissism and she's got a book called, "Should I stay or should I go?" And everyone in this situation, whether they're in it or whether they're out of it, should read it because she literally breaks down all the behaviors and you tick the ones that you're experiencing and then she goes through every single behavior that you're experiencing and says, "This is what it looks like if you stay." And this is what it looks like if you go. So if you do decide to stay and people do for a whole host of reasons, children, finances, fear, the list goes on, she sets it out very clearly what your life will look like and how you can manage it. So it is your choice at the end of the day and no one can tell you what you should or shouldn't do. My instinct when everyone is just, "Run, get out, leave now, abort mission." But you can't. People are always that jolly. Yeah. Okay, what about working for a narcissist? 'Cause I think it's a little bit different 'cause you're not emotionally invested. Yes. There is a level, depending on your particular situation, but finances come into it. Perhaps there's a job opportunity for you there and you wanna keep exploring it, but you've got to face this person every single day. How do people navigate situations like that? Yeah, it's tricky because if it is your direct manager, for example, or your boss, they have a lot of say an impact on your career and your career path. Now the obvious is you can always try and find another role and move away. If you're in the role and you can't do that for whatever reason, the same rules apply about not engaging, being black and white, stick to the facts, one of the biggest things, and this is in separation to document, contemporaneous documentation, which is objective. Whether you email yourself because that's time and date stamp. Today this happened. I said this, he or she said this, have it all there and document the behaviors because the day will come where you go to your HR person or whoever it might be where you're working and say this is what I'm experiencing. And if you can't make your case, now it could be a whole other session talking about how people respond in these situations and whether you're believed or not, and it breaks my heart, but it happens. And if you're too emotional, people think it's you, which again breaks your heart, but time. If you can say, well, here it all is, on this date, I experienced this behavior. You know, don't email yourself and be like, oh, today my boss, she was such a nightmare, she's such a cow, that will do you no favors. But very objective, this was the behavior, this is what I said and keep documenting. And then you can literally produce it and say, here it is, this is what I'm experiencing. What are you gonna do about it? - Yeah. It's also likely in scenarios like that that you're likely not the only one suffering at the hands of this person, especially if they're managing a team. Yeah. - Yeah. - Or it's so hard though, isn't it? I worked for a narcissistic woman, most definitely would have been diagnosed as a narcissist. And I was young, I was in my 20s and I had this incredible job. I was so lucky to have landed the opportunity.
And it took me 18 months before I realized that there was no way I was ever going to win anything, but I just, you know, I just couldn't get ahead and that it was most definitely her and not me. But it took, it took a lot of courage. It was a start-up, so there was no HR department at the time. And it took a lot of courage and I was very scared, but I remember the day that I walked out, there were four or five resignations the following week. Yeah, so a lot of people are experiencing the same, you know, the problem in the workplace as well is more often than not. I bet that person's performing because they don't care about anyone else and they care about the results. So it's tricky because the firm or the company will be like, "Oh gosh, but that person's making us a lot of money." So it's really hard. I mean, she happened to be the founder of the company, so there was no way out. Here's something I would love to talk to you about. I don't know if you're open to it, but it's a common theme I've seen throughout my life, especially in the last few years as I've been writing books about manifestation. Narcissus make incredible manifestors because they believe without a shadow of the doubt that everything will work out for them. It's like this, you know, lucky girl trend that's going around on TikTok that's like, "Everything good happens to me. Only amazing things happen to me." Yes. And there is this idea, you know, like when we have a positive mindset and we have complete faith that everything will work out for us that it does. There is an element of truth to that tends to happen for the narcissist, right? Yes. And so we look at them and they are living these amazing lives. They usually have quite a bit of money. Their businesses are doing well. And it's this strong belief that of course they will succeed at anything. Do you see something in this? Yes, I do. And I was put off by it so badly at first because I thought that's just not fair. Right. There's not fair. But where the universe does not have fair back in manifesting is the feeling part of it. Not really case that. Right. They're not feeling. You're right. But the intent, you know, I think personally, correct me if I'm wrong, when you're intent behind your manifesting is good for a good purpose, for a good cause, for the greater good, whatever it might be, they don't have that. No. So the universe does not have their back. And someone said to me, you know, it's just it's just so unfair and they have all these things. And like you said, you know, often they have a nice house where they've got money in a good job. And I'm like, but do you know what? Every single day what is on the inside is a big black hole. Yeah. And they have to live with that every single day. The universe does not have their back. But I can see how when you outside looking in, you're like, hold on a minute, you know, but they don't feel the joy, they don't feel love, they don't feel the pain, they don't feel any of those sorts of things that life is about. But then shouldn't we really feel sorry for them? I mean, that is very sad. And what a sad existence. And many of these many of these narcissists have not made it a it wasn't a choice for them to run their lives like this. So is there a level of empathy we can extend to them? Yeah, you can have empathy for them, but it is not your job to fix them because you will destroy yourself in the process. So not at your expense. And it brings me back to the comment I made before around, you know, we've all had things happen in our lifetime. And I have not grown up and then decided that I will control and manipulate and gaslight and abuse people because of the things that have happened to me. They're in the way as the difference. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I want to go back to somebody who perhaps is listening to this and thinking, oh my god, is that person in my life a narcissist? What are those tell tale signs for them that maybe they could keep an eye out for? Yeah. So the key ones and the obvious ones are the inflexibility, the entitlement, you know, that they deserve everything. You'll find that what they initially love about you, you know, because more often than not, the people that they are in relationships with, for example, are a bright light. You know, they're smart or they're funny or they're really kind people, got a good career, all these wonderful traits because a lot of people think, oh, what was wrong with me? But it's those same traits that then work against them. So you'll find they don't like it when people start going or Jordana, your books are fantastic. They won't like that because they'll be like, excuse me, I'm over here. Let's talk about me for a second. You know, so that that entitlement, that brandyosity, the inflexibility, you will always be blamed for everything, everything. And you'll find that what they do and this is where gaslighting really comes in is if you dare say how you feel about something, then they'll say, well, no, I didn't do that or I didn't say that. Now, sure, we've all got a right to respond to someone and say, but I didn't do that. But where they take it up a notch and this is where the gaslighting kicks in. So say you go to them and say, I saw a text message on your phone from someone. No, and no, you didn't. There's no text message on my phone. So you'll look, what? But then they kick it up a notch and they go, do you know what? I'm getting really sick of you not trusting me. I'm getting really sick of you going through my phone and doubting me, I have done everything to make this a wonderful relationship. And you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Me, I'm having flashbacks. I hate this. So, you know, I really do, I say this all the time, knowledge is power, knowledge is power, read, understand, there's so much material out there. And you know, what I get really focused on and careful about is I don't want to get into this negative cesspit of, oh, they're the worst and there's no way out because they're really, really is. And part of this is about you and that's not victim-blaining at all. It's not your fault. But, you know, people pleasing lack of boundaries. Yeah. Wanting to rescue all those sorts of things that I did, you know, I really excelled out in my lifetime. But they didn't serve me because no one had to slip through the cracks. The door was wide open. Right. This is a really important point, Mayor. I'm glad you brought it up because there is an element, like I said, I have dated a lot of narcissists where I had to turn around and say, okay, you are maybe you're attracted to them, but you're also attracting them. So, what are you doing? And you're right. It was broken wings, it was fixing problems, it was the charm, it was the charisma, it was me wanting to be validated as well. Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. And you can also look at your childhood too. So, you know, personally, I've got an Italian upbringing, which traditionally is quite strict and, you know, the men come first and you are raised to get married and look after your husband. You know, those sorts of things all feed into it as well because your condition to be like, okay, well, I take a back seat and whatever you want. And, you know, so there's many layers. What I can say in doing that work and going on that journey, it's so empowering and it's so liberating because having boundaries is not a bad thing. It's not offending anyone. And if you have a boundary and someone reacts badly to that, well, there's your first big red flag to go, you're not for me, you know, and that's fine. Whereas, a lot of us would be like, oh gosh, I've offended them. I'm not going to do that again. No, boundaries are great. They're wonderful things and what you'll find is then you start with pally narcissists, like there's no tomorrow because what they hate is boundaries. Right. Yes, that makes sense. And then you attract them less and less. And over time, I mean, I can't tell you how wonderful it is to go on that journey and get to know yourself because yourself has been chipped away out, probably to the point where you don't know who you are anymore. And you find yourself and you realize, I'm a warrior. Like I'm a strong, incredible smart woman, a great mom, you know, whatever it might be for each particular person. And you go from losing days of how do I respond to this email? I don't know what to do. And you go from spending every waking minute talking to your girlfriends, your family, your friends, your whoever about this person. Then they did this and then they did that and then this is what I got to to not giving them the energy and it is amazing. It's a journey. And that's why I'm like, I am here to make that journey, you know, to hold your hand in that journey and empower you so that you're you can get through it. And it's going to be in the time that works for you. But to get through it sooner rather than later and be free, it's amazing. It changes your life. I have quite a few listeners who are single and who are on the dating apps. How do we tell a naturally beautifully charismatic charming man apart from the narcissist who's
trying to, I call it glamoring you, like her vampire glamours you in the beginning. What are the other tiny little red flags in the beginning that would be good indicators even before you're actually in relationship with them? Yes. So they sound little, but when you look back, you're like, oh gosh, now I see how it began. So you know, one of the top ones is love bombing, which is just constant. You're the best. You're amazing. I'm so lucky to have met you. And there are beautiful things to hear who doesn't like hearing those things, but they're sort of a healthy, you know, when they're so wonderful. Yeah, and you know me well. Yeah. Yes, I'm loving getting to know you as opposed to all day every day. There'll also be their response to your healthy boundaries. You know, would love to take you for dinner tomorrow night and your response is so sorry, I can't do tomorrow night. Could we make it Friday night? And the response is absolutely, I'll move some things around or whatever it might be, but it's a healthy response. Not, you know, what I can't do Friday night, why can't you make tomorrow work? What could possibly be more important than seeing me tomorrow night? Do you not care about this relationship? Right. I mean, that's a red flag to me, but yes, I could see how good it might just be. And that said, I wish it was as loud as that, but at the beginning, it's there. Yeah. It's just subtle. It's subtle. You want someone who has a healthy response to your boundaries. Right. Not someone who starts all of a sudden checking your location on your phone and, you know, I like that. I like the healthy response to your boundaries. Yeah. Yes. So you've got to get very clear on who you are and what your boundaries are and what your values are. And again, you know, no, it's a sentence and that should be respected. If someone reacts to your know, you do have to take a step back. They might not be a narcissist, but they may be in a place that's not for you right now. And it's okay to say this is not for me. I wish you all the best. Yeah. Anything else to keep an eye out for or any questions, perhaps we could ask to test the level of narcissism in them. Well, I personally find that they will at first be so focused on you. Because they're trying to find the cracks, the links, the holes. But then you'll find it then becomes all about them and their goals and their aspirations and what they want and where they're going and you better be coming along for the journey. But a huge part in all of this is your gut, your instinct, your intuition, right? Which for those people who are leaving one or left one, that's been well and truly ignored and silenced for a long time. But for those who are dating and out there, I mean people, when something doesn't feel right in your body or you read a message or you meet someone and something and you go, "Oh my gosh, do not ignore it. Do not justify it. Do not explain it away." Because something in you is telling you. And don't let other people tell you to ignore it or explain it away. Yes, oh, he's had a hard childhood or her mum was really hard on her or you've got your walls up because you haven't found the one yet. No, listen to that feeling because we all have them. But sometimes we want to explain them away. Right. Don't do it. No. Mayor, is there anything else that you think we should touch on when talking about narcissism before we wrap up this conversation? You absolutely can get through it. You absolutely can create a life where you're not thinking about them and you're not waking up what's he going to do today, what's he going to say today and your energy comes back to you and you are free. You absolutely can. It's hard to do alone. You've got to have your team and I always viewed it as an investment in me. Everything that I did was an investment in me, whether it was psychology, kinesiology, lawyers, whatever it was. I was like, this is an investment in me and it truly is because there are experts out there who can bring you back to you and turn you into the fierce person that you are and that person is just whatever. Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you. If people would like to learn more about you and what you do, where's the best place for them to find you? Absolutely. So my Instagram is grow up consulting one word. So you can find me on there and send me a DM, not a problem at all. Or you can email me at
[email protected]. And I'd love to help each and every person who is navigating this situation. Thank you so much, Mayor. Now that was such a, well, I was going to say a great discussion. It was a great discussion. It was very enlightening. And it's good to hear, you know, so many of the things that you said resonated with me in terms of what I've experienced, but also what I've heard my friends experiencing with there, either current or ex narcissistic partners. And it just makes you feel like, you know, alone and be, you're not going bloody crazy. Do you know what? You hit the nail on the head. You are not below and you're not going crazy because you really do feel that you're losing your mind. They're very effective at it. So, you know, let's get out, let's get free and a little great life.
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