Navigating life post-October 7th as a Jewish journalist w/ Marsha Lederman

You know, some people will say some of these actions are war crimes that some of these actions are genocidal. I should be allowed to critique the state and not be deemed as being someone who hates Jews. Oh, 100%. It's one thing to disagree with the state of Israel. The next step, saying all Israelis are terrible, which I've certainly seen, would or should not be tolerated. You and I and everyone else has every right to criticize the Israeli government. That doesn't mean that all Israelis belong in that category and certainly not all Jews. Navigating the post-October 7th, 2023 world has been a monumental challenge for Marsha Leaderment, as a Jew living in Canada at a time of rising anti-Semitism and as a columnist writing for one of the country's major newspapers. She's had to reconcile her love for Israel with her disdain for its current leadership, and her horror met Israel's cataclysmic destruction of Gaza and the killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians in what several human rights organizations are calling an ongoing genocide. I'm Adrienne Herwood, and this is In Bed with the Elephant. Marsha Leaderment is an award-winning columnist for the Globe and Mail. Her first book, Kiss the Red Stairs, the Holocaust Once Removed, was a national bestseller. Her latest book is called "October 7th", searching for the humanitarian middle. Marsha Leaderment, welcome to In Bed with the Elephant. Thanks for having me, I appreciate it. Marsha on October 7th, 2023, a Hamas-led attack killed at least 1,139 people, including 639 Israeli civilians, and resulted in more than 200 Israelis being taken hostage. It began Saturday morning with a massive rocket barrage from Gaza striking across Israel. While targets were hit, the likely intent here was to keep Israelis indoors to distract from the invasion. Tonight we're here in Tel Aviv, this country struggling to process the brutality of Hamas's attack. Israel's military details atrocities and tire families killed in their homes. On the ground, hundreds of Hamas fighters poured across breached border points, smashing Israel's defenses, heading to more than 20 communities in a house to house search, largely unopposed. The right-and-your-book that quote, "I was infuriated at how Hamas terrorists, who went into Israel and murdered and raped and took people children hostage, were being held up as freedom fighters, as noble resistance." Yes, I'm still infuriated by that. It's not noble resistance to take children hostage. It's not noble resistance to rape young women at a music festival. It's not resistance to murder people. How would you describe your understanding of why October 7th happened? I understand that it was a response to. Well, I won't say occupation because Gaza wasn't occupied at that time, but the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Hamas, which led those attacks, does not believe that Israel has a right to exist. And there has definitely been a pression of Palestinians and continues to be terrible oppression of Palestinians in Israel. I'm against the occupation, if that's not clear. So it's a reaction to that. And if you're going to try to get me to say that it's justified, I'm not going to say that. So in terms of the reaction you're saying to occupation that the attacks that took place on civilians, on Israeli citizens on that day cannot be condoned, certainly not, but cannot be even. It's hard for you to make sense of what happened. It's hard for you to even understand how something like that would take place given the circumstances in which people in Gaza had been living. Yeah, I don't understand how you go to a music festival full of a bunch of young men and women and take women and tie them to trees and rape them with implements. Or I could get into more details, but I don't want to. No, I don't understand that. And I won't. I don't understand barbarity. I don't understand taking babies hostage. I just don't. I understand being frustrated. I understand being frustrated is not a strong enough word, but there is nothing that justifies what happened on that day. Israel declares war after Hamas stages a stunning assault by Land Air and Sea. Now there's growing fear the conflict is expanding. Retalliation to the surprise attack with force and vengeance, promising Hamas will pay an unprecedented price. Overnight Gaza hammered by Israel with airstrikes. Hundreds are dead. Thousands of Israelis and Palestinians are wounded. Palestinians trapped inside Gaza with little food, water or power. The growing fears of a humanitarian crisis as the fighting escalates. Israel responded to October 7th with ferocious attacks of its own on the Gaza Strip. We know that since October 7th, some 70,000 Palestinians have been killed. Much of the strip has been raised to the ground. 80% of hospitals in Gaza have been destroyed. All the universities in Gaza have been obliterated. Thousands of thousands of children have died have been killed. How do you make sense of the state of Israel's response to what you describe as the barbarity of October 7th? Oh, I think it was far too prolonged. I'm not a military strategist, but I feel like it was an over-response. I feel like they're dealing with Hamas, which doesn't believe in their existence, which probably makes negotiating a deal more difficult. Yeah, it's terrible. It's a catastrophe. It's just awful. But it's interesting. I just wanted to ask you, so when you started this interview, the numbers you used regarding the Israeli victims of October 7th, you talked about civilians as opposed to the total number of people who were murdered on that day. In other words, you're not including Israeli soldiers, and Israel, by the way, has conscription. So it's mandatory to serve in the military once you're 18 men and women. You're not making that distinction whether it's 70,000 civilians or none of us know, unfortunately, the exact numbers. But I just find that there is a bit of a double standard sometimes in the way people talk about this. So I also am absolutely appalled when anybody says something like, oh, 70,000, can we believe Hamas? Well, so what if it's 50,000? What if it's 10,000? In any case, it's a horrific number. So I guess what I'm saying is I don't think the number comparison is, I don't think it's as meaningful as discussing the fact that all kinds of innocent people have been killed in this war and in the start of the war on October 7th. And it is horrific. Absolutely. I think what I was really trying to do is just to state the facts and just to try to provide as clear a picture as I could. And so when I noted the number, I think I said 1,139 people and 639 Israeli civilians, I think I noted more than 200 Israelis taken hostage. I think that given how sensitive this topic is and how difficult a conversation this is to have, it's important to settle the facts and to be clear about that. So that's why I invoked those numbers. Yeah, and it's also ridiculous that that's what I'm even saying to you. It's ridiculous that I'm quibbling about those numbers. I'm heartbroken over what's happened and what's happening. It's still happening even with the ceasefire. Babies should not be killed. It happens in war. It's awful. You know, we can talk about the numbers of people that have been killed and it's horrific. It's families, communities. But I so worry about the long term effects of this because when, and I hope it's a when, Gaza is rebuilt and these people get their lives back, those who are still alive, they will never be the same. Their families will have the trauma in their bones and their blood that I carry in mine and that gives me that that breaks my heart. Because that's what we're seeing. We're seeing this happening in real time and we're seeing something that's going to play out and continue to play out long after I'm around to watch it. It was clear to me like in reading the book that you at times seem to be struggling a little bit with some of the language that is used to describe, you know, what's been going on in Gaza. I know Rosalie Abella, the former Supreme Court Justice, wrote a piece in which she says that this notion that what's taking place in Gaza, what's been taking place in Gaza over the last two and a half years is genocide is an affront. It's offensive. It is antithetical to the truth that this is a war. It's not a genocide and in wars, bad things happen. But to call it a genocide is to engage in a kind of Jew hatred. When you're writing about what's going on in Gaza, how do you think about this word genocide? How do you think about words like war crimes? Rosalie Abella wrote that not recently. She wrote that a few months into the war just to be clear. The first time I heard what Israel was doing in response to the October 7th attacks described as a genocide was probably in October of 2023 for sure it was November, but it was very soon after. And I thought maybe the person using that term doesn't know what a genocide is. They think it's a mass murder. It's killing with many, many, many victims, which is terrible in and of itself. Let me be clear. Genocide is defined by the UN as killing members of a particular group or causing serious bodily harm or mental harm to that group, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. The idea being that like the intent to destroy. Exactly. So in whole-or-and-part, a national or ethnic or racial or religious group. Right. So we both have the definition in front of us. So yeah, a genocide legally is an attempt to white out of people, essentially, with intent. Is that what the Israeli government was doing? When people started using that word very early on, I was certain, like they don't understand. They must think genocide means killing a lot of people in a war. And things developed since then. I recognize that. I recognize that many deep thinkers and organizations, including that cellum, which is Israeli human rights organization, have used the term genocide. But cellum, the organization I work for, actually I should also say together with physicians for human rights Israel, a fellow human rights organization based in Israel, both reach the conclusion that what Israel is doing right now in the Gaza Strip is genocide. It is the deliberate, the coordinated action to destroy Palestinian society in the Gaza Strip. This is the textbook definition of genocide. I think what is so hard about hearing that word, first of all, when it started to be used, it was inappropriate, completely, absolutely wrong. Because it was too soon? Because it was too early? Because I don't think Israel going in there trying to wipe everyone out. Is that what they were doing? And on October 10th, 2023? I mean, I don't know, actually. And this is why I'll eventually get to this. I'm not going to say whether I would call this a genocide or not. Because a court is going to rule on that, a court that will have information that I don't have and you don't have. But in the early days, that it made me very suspicious, that that word was being used so quickly. Just so you understand, for the Jewish people, that word is so loaded and it's so strong. And I think what people immediately envision when they hear genocide is Auschwitz, which is not accurate. That is not necessarily the definition of genocide. But it hurts to have that. There's something called Holocaust inversion where Benjamin Netanyahu is called Adolf Hitler or Israel is compared to Nazi Germany. This is particularly offensive to people who were almost wiped out by the Nazi campaign. It feels like a cudgel. Is that it? It feels as if people are trying to exploit a situation by trying to attribute this horrific action, which is what a genocide is, to a community that itself suffered a genocide. Is that maybe a way of understanding it? Yeah, that's a very good way of putting it. But let me just say, that doesn't mean what has happened is not horrific. In fact, I believe war crimes probably have been committed. Although, again, I don't know. I'm not the one to make that ruling. But it has been horrific. Is it a genocide? I don't know. I don't think it's the most important question. There's certainly a great deal of focus on it, which also makes me uncomfortable. But is it not important? Is that determination? Yeah, it is important. And international court is going to rule on it. I think we're going to learn a lot more about what's happened there when that happens. In a world drowning in misinformation and disinformation, never has the work of journalists been more important. That's why we here at Inbed with the Elephant are so grateful to our podcast Founding Sponsor, Perfect Books for their support of Independent Journalism. Perfect Books is an independent bookstore located at 258A Elk and Street in the heart of downtown Ottawa. Perfect Books. A store for book lovers. You know, some people will say, I believe that some of the actions of the state of Israel are anti-human. Some of these actions are war crimes that some of these actions are genocidal in their intent. And because I'm criticizing the state of Israel doesn't mean that I'm anti-Semitic. Oh, 100%. I also criticize the state of Israel and I certainly don't hate Jews. It's really important to make that distinction. I think it really belittles the actual anti-Semitism that's happening when let's say there's a peaceful pro-Palestinian protest somewhere and someone calls them Hamas lovers. That's just not on. The next step saying, "All Israelis are terrible," which I've certainly seen, again, would or should not be tolerated. And certainly to take that beyond Israelis and to say, "You're a genocider." That's something that people have said to me. "How am I a genocider? I'm absolutely not." So there is a conflation for sure. It's a problem. And absolutely you and I and everyone else has every right to criticize the Israeli government. That doesn't mean that all Israelis belong in that category. And certainly not all Jews. And yet you do think that some of these protests that have been going on in this country protests that are demonstrating anger towards the actions of the Israeli government. But some of these protests in this country have gone too far and have in fact become anti-Semitic. Why are people protesting at Bathurston Shepherd where there's like a supermarket and a bunch of old Jewish people live there? Why are you not at the Israeli consulate? That's why. It's that sort of thing. And these are very loud, intimidating protests at times. Why are you outside a Jewish old folks home in Ottawa? Why are you protesting there? Protest is an absolute cornerstone of our democracy and I encourage it. A protest that goes to people's neighborhoods who have nothing to do with what's going on. That's intimidation. It's very evident that this is not an easy subject for you to talk about. This was very personal. The personal effect on me was really deep because of the intergenerational trauma that I suffer from as do many people like me. In my case, my parents were Holocaust survivors, so I have that trauma in my body and in my life experience. But I wrote a whole book about intergenerational trauma. My first book is The Red Stairs, yet I had never felt its impact the way I started to on October 7, 2023. And also coincided with a change in my career that had happened not all that long before the attacks, and that was that I became a columnist, an opinion columnist, someone who was writing about personal observations and opinions and sometimes experiences. So I was suddenly in a position to write about this in a very personal way. Given your position as a columnist at the Globe and Mail, you've had to grapple with these issues. You've had to struggle with these issues over the last two and a half years, and I'm wondering how you've done it, how you've managed, how you've tried to approach the kind of writing that you've been doing on a daily basis. Well, like I say, I try to approach it as a human being. I find that so much of the discourse around this war and this issue and what in Israel they call the situation is so black and white and people are, you know, tweeting across cyber space to use an old term without having a nuanced dialogue about it. And I've tried to bring nuance, if that's possible, into this, to say that yes, it is horrific what is happening in Gaza. That does not negate what happened on October 7, which was also horrific. I'm someone who believes in the state of Israel, right to exist, which makes me a Zionist, which I know is a very dirty word. I also consider myself to be pro-Palestinian. And there are some people on both quote-unquote sides who find that to be impossible, but it's not. There are people suffering. And that's how I look at it from the humanitarian human aspect of it. And in fact, in the book, you talk about the fact that you are an ardent critic of Benjamin Netanyahu, that you feel that he has poisoned the well. Oh, yeah. And listen, I've received a lot of criticism for what I've written and what I continue to write. And a lot of that criticism has come from the Jewish community, people who feel I have been too hard on Israel or too hard on Netanyahu. I've been called a traitor and much worse. I abhor Netanyahu. I abhor the politicians that he is in a coalition with. What do you abhor about him or rather what do you abhor about his policies? They're anti-Palestinian. They're pro-war. They're hawkish. Many people I have died because of this war. How could you not abhor that? You also feel that he's had an effect on Jewish life in this country, that the actions that his government has taken in Gaza are having a material effect on the Jewish diaspora. Yes, although the way that's put suggests that he is responsible for anti-Semitism. I think this war has emboldened people who perhaps might have lent that way to begin with. The anti-Semitism that has happened during this two and a quarter year period has been shocking. And of course it's related to Gaza that doesn't make it okay. Jews in Canada have every right to live free of discrimination, just like any other minority group. And we are a tiny minority and yet are bearing the brunt of the huge increase in hate crimes and incidents that involve hatred. Well, I'm not going to blame Netanyahu for that. I blame him for the war, which is much worse. But the anti-Semitism that has come about as a result of this has been horrific. Tonight, a shocking, unprovoked attack, aught a police now called a hate crime. A Jewish woman in her 70s stabbed by a stranger while she was getting groceries. It's got wrenching. The growing concern about the rise in anti-Semitic crimes. Can you talk about that, Marsha? How have you seen, even in your own life, anti-Semitism coming to the fore? How is anti-Semitism manifesting itself on a daily basis in your life and in the lives of your loved ones? My son is in his final year of high school right now and we're looking at universities. And as we were looking at university possibilities, one of the things that I had to take into account in making these choices was how much anti-Semitism has that campus dealt with? How safe will he feel? Will he feel intimidated on this campus? And I never heard in my wildest nightmares would have thought that would have been a factor in choosing a university in 2025 and 2026. Holocaust Remembrance Day is coming up and at the ceremonies that will happen across this country anyway, there will be so much security there. There has to be so much security as a result of the anti-Semitism and the threats to the community. That's crazy that when I go into a synagogue, which I do every now and then, I need to have my purse checked for weapons, I've had to go through a metal detector at a synagogue. This is where we're at. It's scary. It gets to you. You know, when I turned 30, my mother gave me a Jewish star for my birthday with my birth stone and I would not feel comfortable wearing that in public right now. I haven't worn it in a very long time. You're afraid of being targeted? I'm not really afraid of physically being targeted. I think I'm more afraid of being looked at in a different way. I think people would look at me and I know I've seen this. People will evaluate me based on the fact that I'm Jewish and that is again something I never thought I would have to deal with. How does it make you feel? It scares the hell out of me. Even though I know I'm safe. I am so safe. I'm in Canada. Nothing's going to happen to me. But that's a rational thought. I'm not rational about this. My body is processing this in a way that is not rational. I'm much better now. But if you and I were talking in the fall of 2023, I would be a panicked mess. You know, you are expressing a lot of confidence I would suggest in Canada. You're suggesting that you don't think anything is going to happen here. Is that feeling shared? You would say by other Jewish friends of yours? And I'm thinking in the wake of, for example, the attack that took place on Banda Beach in Sydney, Australia in December. In the wake of that, are people still feeling that this country is safe for them? There are people I know who did not show up for Hanukkah public Hanukkah events here in Canada because they felt fear. I know people in Toronto in particular are very upset about protests that have been targeting a Jewish neighborhood on your Bathurst in Shepherd, which incidentally is where I grew up. They're very frustrated. And again, I'm not sure that's a strong enough word with what they feel is a lack of response by governments and police. I know people who are looking at leaving the country. I know people who are leaving or have left the country. They're going to the US because they feel Canada is not a safe place to raise Jewish children. I don't believe that myself, but I'm not going to negate how other people feel. What kind of future do you want to see for Jewish life in this country? What does that Jewish future in Canada look like for you? I think it looks very much like the past where I didn't have to think about the possibility that I could be targeted for wearing this necklace that my mother gave me if I decide to wear it to shoppers' drug mart. That's what I would like to return to a time when we are not judging people based on their, well, I mean, I would like racism to go away, Adrienne. That's what I would really like. But for me, I would like to go back to that existence. that I had before. Maybe it was naive. I don't know. I felt very confident and comfortable and very at home in Canada. And I still do. I just, yeah, I'd like to be able to wear that necklace. Marshall Leederman, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. You've been listening to In Bad with the Elephant, a production of Ricochet Media. Let us know what you think about our show by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. You can follow the podcast on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, iHeartRadio, YouTube, or wherever you find your podcasts. The producer, editor and sound engineer of In Bad with the Elephant is Dave Sarasant, executive producers, Ethan Cox and Andrew Houston, music, Parker Herwood, graphics, Connor Kaloran. I'm Adrian Herwood. See you next time.