Navigating Being Queer & Christian w/ Jenna Kim & Tristan Cabral

(upbeat music) You're listening to Free to Be, a conversation to help you discover, accept, love, and express your authenticity. So you can fully experience the freedom to be you. I'm your host, Luke of the Trucci, and welcome to this safe and affirming space. There's a reason you're here today, and I'm excited for you to bring light to it. I hope this episode meets you where you're at and supports you right now. Hello, and welcome back to Free to Be. I'm your host, Luke of the Trucci. My pronouns are he, him, his, and I'm freaking excited you're here today. This conversation is one that I always knew was going to follow the one I had with Josie last week about my coming out story. These two episodes are like sisters. Growing up Christian, I was taught that being gay is wrong, through verbal and nonverbal actions. For decades, I thought being gay was a sin, and if I chose to pursue this deep knowing, I would let God and my family down and go to hell. And I really believed this at a subconscious, and conscious level, like, I so don't believe it now, but for so many freaking years, I did. Will I be okay if I go against the right way of living, of being? Would I disappoint my family and lose their love? Would I be rejected by my whole family and community if I choose to pursue this truth? If I choose my authenticity, would I be hurt or in danger? Why do I feel so different? I see no representation around me. How do I know I'll be safe if I express myself? These are common thoughts that people part of the LGBTQIA+ community process internally for years and years and many for decades before sharing their truth with others and coming out, especially those at the intersection of being queer and growing up Christian. In June, 2021, I felt really alone and sad. I knew I was queer and believed in God, and it was getting really difficult, holding that possibility without anyone around me, believing and pursuing the same. I had only met two people up until this point in my 28 years of life who lived at this intersection. After decades of praying, patience, and wandering, I finally found hundreds of people like me in July, 2021. I found the most inclusive church and community of quote-unquote outsiders that were waiting for me with open arms and unconditional love and never in my wildest dreams. Did I imagine that there would be an affirming church with so many queer humans showing up fully as themselves? This church is called New Abbey. It's located in Southern California in Glendale. This was when my path crossed with two of the most beautiful souls I've ever met, Jenna Kim and Tristan Cabral. In this episode, the two of them and I have the most heart opening and vulnerable conversation about navigating the unknown and family relationships as queer Christians with an evolving concept of and relationship to faith. It's the longest podcast conversation I've ever had and one of the most impactful. Every part of it is so intentional and necessary to share. If you aren't able to listen to the whole two hours in one sitting, split it up one hour today and one hour tomorrow or next week. It's worth a full listen. Just trust me on this. We talk about how challenging it was to grow up seeing zero representation of people who are like us and how we bravely had to be the examples we wish we saw around us and create a life for ourselves as queer humans of faith in the unknown. Jenna and Tristan openly share the pressures they faced and still face a feeling like they need to be quote-on-quote perfect as the oldest children in Asian households of faith. We also dive into why it was so damn hard for us to come out to our parents. In the last 20 minutes of this conversation, we share ways you can become a better actionable ally to the LGBTQIA+ community. The three of us are just trying to figure the damn thing out still. How do we show up as ourselves in all facets of our life, especially around our families and communities who have known a past version of ourself before we were outwardly queer? Jenna is proudly Korean American. She's the oldest of four girls and the daughter of a pastor. Jenna works as a production supervisor at Disney. Tristan is a first generation Filipino American working as a storyboard artist at Nickelodeon. He is very proud of his identity as a Filipino immigrant storyteller and dreams to one day be a director on a cartoon that heavily focuses on cultural intersections. I hold that possibility for him. Mm, I see it. Now, this is a trigger warning. We do talk about suicide in this episode. If you're struggling right now, please know that you are so freaking loved and the world is more magical and vibrant with you in it. If you need direct support, please call the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. This lifeline provides free and confidential emotional support to people in suicidal crisis or emotional distress 24 hours a day, seven days a week in the United States. I hope this conversation reminds you that you are not alone. And there are people and communities that will love you deeply for the thing about you that makes you feel like an outcast. Oh my goodness, I am just so at peace and enjoy being with two of my amazing friends, Tristan and Jenna. We met almost a year ago. We met almost a year ago in Los Angeles. Each of us were just looking for a community that met at our intersection of being queer and still having faith in God and really discovering what that means. And we found each other and it's just been such a beautiful transformative friendship. And before I just have you hear from them, both of you, I wanna read something to you that really represents who each of you are to me and it represents how you've really helped me heal from so many things. So can I read you something? Yeah. Yeah. And I may have sent it to you before and you may have read it on your own. So this will be hearing it again and yeah. So this is from a book. I'm showing them. I knew it. (laughing) It's one of our favorite authors and Jenna Diagin's "Like Streams to the Ocean." It can be hard to tell the difference between an outcast and a pioneer. What if you're meant to be the example you needed? What if God gave you your personality, your unique skill set to equip you to walk into the wilderness and show that it can be done? Just because you don't have a roadmap, doesn't mean you aren't meant to walk in the direction of your convictions. Look at your gifts, your skills, you may be a pioneer. A friend once told me, "Most people are unhappy with their life. They're stuck in a situation that isn't what they hoped for, but they don't see a way out. And they don't see examples of freedom. That is it. We need models. We need examples of a way out. Some of those lone wanderers in the desert are not outcast. They're pioneers. They become the way out, first for themselves, and then for others. This goes for all manners of living, of the job you want, of the community you need, of the project you fear to start. We are waiting for permission for examples. But what if you're the example? Last paragraph right here. My views on how to feel safe in this world have expanded exponentially. For me, I kept opening doors with trembling hands and fists up, ready for a fight. But the more I've done this and found smiling faces behind the door, "AKA, both of you." The safer I felt in the endless halls of my constantly changing life. Last couple sentences. And the wildest thing, this is just a rain so true. What would you represent to me? When you think no one is modeling what you need and you dare to step into that for yourself, you find the room crowded with comrades with bright eyes and high fives. And you too? It's the best feeling in the world. The feeling of God saying, "Ha, my love, you thought I was so small." Oh, that's so nice. That's exactly it. Thank you. I mean, yeah, that's honestly the exact same thing that I feel towards you all and our friends. It's the most beautiful, profound experience that I didn't even dare to imagine possible or had no concept for being able to picture before. It's really the sweetest thing. It makes life feel so full and sweet and so thankful. To have friends who have pioneered or helped pioneer path for themselves and their family and all understand that pioneer life, I think that's so special to have friends who all have walked that path. Yeah. That's the terrifying part. Part of it all in the beginning, when you haven't had examples of someone similar to you, the great fear is, "Will I be okay?" I have no reference point for who to look to as an example or role model to know that if I can be like them, I'll be okay, or I can still be a person committed to these values. Especially when you grow up in a conservative religious environment, you're told these stories about the kinds of people that are like this. I don't want to be like that. It's such a revelation to step into that unknown alone and then just exactly the quote says to find, "Other people I do not crazy, it's such a relief, it's a really good feeling." Yes, oh my gosh, yes, to all that. It's so true. That's why I just appreciate you both and appreciate how each of us knew what was honest, true, and real about our human experience. First off, yes to that. Then courageously stepped in a new space of maybe there are other people here that are like me. That's for me. I felt the first day of school when I walked into New Abbey in Pasadena, the church that we all go to. I was like, "Oh my gosh, I know that this place has similar values to me from what friends have said, seeing online. I see other queer people and I see people that are deconstructing their Christian beliefs." But yeah, it's just so cool to know that that was all our experience walking into the doors of New Abbey for the first time and how it's like when you say, yes to your honesty and your truth and surround yourself with others like healing and it happens. I think there's a power to the communal side when you see other people sigh about the same things that you thought only you did when you see other people celebrate or cry, weep, or just find joy. And the things that you thought only you did, I saw that in both of you. I saw that in our friend group. I saw that in New Abbey being like, "I thought I was the only one who held these truths, these experiences." But then the moment became individual to communal, it just became richer. You're making me think of, gosh, I just, so a core value of mine is possibility. And I just love seeing my future and just like holding this hope. And I remember last June, I did a social post about this and it's just coming up right now and I wrote about it a lot. I just held this possibility that I know a truth of mine is that I'm queer and I know that I believe in something bigger than myself. I believe in God. I just knew that. And I'm like, "Okay, I know one day I'm going to find these people." And I just felt like so freaking lonely. I was like, oh my gosh, this is really hard to just hold this intersection that's been told like, you can be gay, but you can't be a Christian or you can be Christian. You can't be gay. I was told that time and time and time and time again. And just like being so freaking lonely and like, oh my gosh, Jesus, God, is this can this even be true for other people? And it's like what I'm learning in my life is like Florence, the machine says, you know, it's always the darkest before the dawn. I felt so dark last June and I was, I was just like anxious and thinking it was work and realizing that it was like that belonging piece, that belonging piece that was missing for from two truths. Have you had a similar experience or like what what was your experience around that? I think for me, I mean, I resonate with so much of that just that feeling of the darkness and of the isolation and yeah, just like not knowing how to navigate, how to move forward, like how to like build a life for yourself that feels worth living. And I think it was a couple of steps for me, like I think given my situation, step number one was just surviving first. Like I couldn't even think past that it was just how do I get through each day? How do I figure out like a sustainable way to navigate the particulars of my situation, which were being, you know, like the oldest child, being a pastor's kid, being a light bloomer, like coming up to myself very late in life and just being like, I don't see any future for myself. That looks like one that I want, you know, and that can take you to a very dark place. And it's really just kind of one foot in front of the other until you find yourself able to start broadening the scope of your imagination for what can be possible to come back to your core value. And I think for me, survival meant getting to the place where I could walk away from that world from, you know, the kind of church community I had grown up in, which was really, really hard because that was like the whole world I knew so much of, I mean, it's who formed, it's what formed me. It's, it was my entire support system. People I'd really cared for and still do. And I think finding myself in a position where it was just so hard to sit, you know, Sunday after Sunday and just feel so at odds with this world that had given me everything that I have of all my values, all my my concept of reality and like, you know, what's what's worth investing your life in. That was like step number one, stepping away from that, being like, I don't know what I'm walking towards, but I just know that continuing here is not sustainable. It's it feels like it's kind of sucking the life out of me, right? And I think it's this for me, it was this long kind of prolonged darkness stage of just being like, I don't know what's ahead, I just need, I know I need to keep on moving forward. And I think Similarly to what you were expressing, Luca, about your situation. You just have these vague concepts of what you think you're hoping for, but it gets blown out of the water by what you get to discover, which is something so rich and so beautiful and so real in the context of community where-- I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined the amazing relationships, friendships I found with all of you, even just a couple of years ago. And I think at the end of the day, you're just trying to do the next right thing, the next best thing, to keep yourself afloat. And as you continue doing that, you are able to look back and be like, oh, wow, I've actually come quite a long way. And I'm now envisioning hopes and dreams that I didn't even know I could envision before. And so that's sort of been my experience with that. Tristan, I so want to hear from you, but Jenny, you're bringing this out to me. And just for listeners, so this new Abby Church, my experience of it is just stepping in. To me, it feels like 70 or 80% queer people. I don't even know if it's that percentage, but there's just so many queer people just love God, that are just figuring out what faith means to them. So that's the community that we're a part of, that like, say, never in my wildest fucking dreams that I never think that that existed, like, never. And like the friend group that Jen is talking about, there's like, I don't know, eight or 10 of us that are just queer and deconstructing our faith. We know that we love something bigger than us, God, like whatever we call it. But we're just all out here just figuring this out. Day by day, like having big conversations with each other. And then also just like dancing our asses off to at a club. You know, just like being like 20 and 30 year olds. Yeah. One of my favorite conversations that probably shaped our new Abby group for me was we went to, I don't know if you look at you were there, but it was the first time I met our friend, Jomo. And we were at a bar with a bunch of us. And we were just talking for the first time we were talking about, like, lesbian sex. And I was just like, I've never, I've just never, even like wondered about that because I'm not lesbian gay. But I'm just like, wow, like, even in a normal setting, like who would I ask to have, like, who would ask, or who would like dare to have these conversations? We're just kind of like, we just were all curious and we're all very open to be curious with each other because we've had the doors shut for so long. And then now we have people who are just like, yeah, we want to share these stories. We want to share all of these like kind of low-key taboo things and we'll get going and we'll like have fun or whatever, but it was really informative for me to be like, okay, cool, I could trust these people. They just want to explore and be curious while at the same time still navigate. What it means to be human or what it means to be a human loved by God. - Yeah, I think trust is the operative word for sure 'cause whatever the topic, however, taboo from sex to relationships to faith, like all of the questions that formerly felt so shrouded in shame, like, you don't ask about that, or whether it was explicitly or implicitly kind of put it out of bounds, it's such a game changer to be like, oh, those things don't have to hold that kind of power. It's like, we're just people trying to figure it out and when you feel safe with people to be in process with, with whatever you're thinking through, yeah, it just moves you from that place of fear, that place of shame into a place of possibility and exploration and just play and fun and just, yeah, it's a sweet place to be. - Yeah, you know, it's just like, gosh, community is so important. You know, I just, and like that representation is so important, especially for groups that are silenced or that are marginalized and that don't see like a lot of examples at all around. You know, when I just, it just, it warms my heart to know that I am not the only one going through these experiences. And I know each of our experiences very different and a lot of it is so similar. And you know, just those listening right now, whether you're just in the exploration of your queerness and faith, you know, that, that contradiction or whether you're, just some other figuring out life or wrestling of a question like it's so important to find community, to help you and to not do it alone. You know, 'cause like Tristan, let me ask you, so how did it feel like figuring out your gainess and holding your faith? How did that feel doing it alone? And did you do it alone for a while? - Yeah, I think it definitely evolved every season of my life. I think I became aware, I choose the word aware because there was an acceptance leader, but I came aware of me being into guys in high school and immediate fear set in because I, kind of like Jenna, I'm the oldest in an Asian household, but also in the immigrant household being the first generation that were just so many rules of survival that we were following and being gay just wasn't in it. It was tried to assimilate as best as you can and like heteronormative white America. And then so fear immediately set in being like, this is the absolute like farthest away. So in high school, I immediately like shoved the identity in the closet, locked it up, put like multiple locks in and burned, not even through the keyway, I burnt it. (laughs) And then in college, I find that that key didn't burn up and I find it and it's actually in my pocket. And I would like interact with it. I was still very much closeted, but I was like, well, shoot, I can't run away from this, this thing follows me. So I just kept it in my pocket and it wasn't until I was working professionally where I was like, oh, this is here to stay, this can't, this won't go away. And actually, just to even go back to your previous question about like, I think the thing that I latched onto in your previous question was like your darkness and where did you come from? I and how new Abby then shed light to it. I actually came from the darkest space in my life, which was the suicide of my brother. And I was, and I just, there was nothing more painful than that. I was like, why am I even holding on to this identity of not being true to myself? Like I've just lived through the darkest phase of my life. Everything needs to go up from here. Everything needs to be towards freedom. Everything needs to be towards this, the enlightening of who Tristan is. And so it was from there that I just rejected that darkness of I could no longer be in the closet. I could no longer be in the dark because I don't wanna be alone. I don't, I've seen my brother really experience life but also experience the hardness of life doing it by himself. I was like, I don't wanna do that. I wanna pick up his lessons. I wanna honor his life by being as true to myself as I can. And in that process, I found you, Abby, who were, I find you, Abby, where there are people who are trying to do the same thing, who are just trying to live out the best versions of themselves. And then so that really made the healing it felt more possible to be whole, to be honest. It felt more possible to really envision myself as a six year old, as a seven year old, really thriving, really have processed what it means to be gay, to be queer and then help pave the way for people in the future. And so. - Oh my gosh, Tristan, I just have gotten body chills. What's your brother's name if you're open to sharing that? And I would love to just like take a moment of silence to just like send him so much love right now. Are you open to that? - Yeah, his name is David. David okay So just yeah, I'm gonna do this like 30 seconds. I'm just gonna do a little Hold up my hands in a heart shape just representing love that's so present from him right now and just sending him love And sending do love Thank you Yeah, thank you. You're welcome and thank you for just sharing Seer your truth so honestly Yeah, you know, um, I don't know at what point we'll talk about family, but my brother really If there was one person I wish I got to tell It was my it's my brother to and I think he would be really proud and he would totally be my ally Totally just as my sister is I know for a fact that my brother will be by my side supporting me Yeah, and so Okay, I'm gonna ask them to and don't feel that pressure at all to answer this, but have you ever like just imagine you telling Your brother and have you done it? No, I didn't have opportunity to actually my I was the last person to have seen him and there was a moment when I was like this might be the last time I get to Tell you and I I don't think I was ready then But I do imagine Occasionally when I'm on a walk sometimes I imagine him walking beside me and I and I'll just share I'll just share Memories of like yeah, I came up to mom or came up to dad or sometimes I'd be like oh, I talked to my friend Jenna about this Or now I'm gonna record a podcast with Luca and Jenna like I'll imagine that he's there with me and he And I would imagine his responses or his little jokes that he would make Here and there and so yeah, I do think about that often because he shaped my life so significantly the loss of a life Really I think a lot of my life to take off he really Was the fuel for honestly the last two years of my life What's one thing like you would just Get to like to tell him like like like like like if you like so, so like let's just say you know Yeah, okay, so the thing the thing that I I wish I could so process with him is how Wonderful our little sister is and how when I came out to her because she was the first person I came out to in our family I think he would be so proud of how my sister just welcomed me and how my sister continues to be an ally for her queer friend and I think We really put a lot we gave a Lot of love to my sister and I think he would be so in love with who she's becoming by the same time he would be so deeply moved by how much of an ally she is for me And I think he would I constantly learn from her and I think he would still say if he was here today He would still say wow. I have a lot to learn from my little sister Gosh, you know, I just I'm just I'm just taking it in it It's this is like the kind of conversations that we have and the kind of conversations that people have access to You know, and I just like I wish it wasn't so freaking hard For people with a queer human experience and especially a faith human experience like just like all the courage It takes to like own that to yourself and then show up in a space and own it and then be comfortable Enough to have a conversation like the three of us are having now just because like the the amount of Peace and joy and love that I'm feeling in my body and in my bones I'm just like oh my gosh This is why like I I do what I do and I like I'm having this podcast It's just I just want everyone to to get access to this and Just thanks for just creating this space right now where I just I feel like just like love is hug me Absolutely. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that Tristan and I think it's things like this that really make me Just so like in awe of like the capacity of love that queer people are capable of experiencing and giving because that what I hear from what you're saying is so much love for your brother and Of course so much pain and so much Sadness and I mean those words don't even feel like adequate to describe everything that you experienced but Yeah, like I think when I look back to what my perception of queer people were it wasn't this beautiful complex nuanced full humanity of Everything that you know what you've experienced. It's you know, I think my I was given sort of this caricature image of just you know out of control indulgence You know reckless destructive People who just didn't care who we're kind of giving up morally and otherwise But what I hear from you and what has been so characteristic of both of you ever since I've met you is such a deep thoughtfulness and reflectiveness on all of the challenges and complexities of being a human of life and learning how to navigate these things that are sometimes so painful but coming out of it with Such beauty and such evolution and growth and reflection that There's impact on your other relationships on your you know hopes and aspirations and I Think it's just such an incredibly beautiful thing like it's crazy to me that I You know had once thought that To be in this space would be just like this you know superficial kind of recklessness because that's the exact opposite of Everything that we talk about and experience together Yeah, I think there's a Yeah, I really relate to that in the sense where I had this picture in my mind of just like the total depravity In the queer community and in the moment I Started building relationships at new Abby that image just not even disintegrated it like exploded like it Disappeared so fast because there was no it was almost like there's no room for That picture anymore like the the image that I got in meeting you and and talking to you guys having proximity every week and laughing and and crying and texting each other just demolished the closet in regards to like you I no longer wanted to ever like consider myself trapped in it and And I also wanted to like destroy that image of or destroy that possibility where people are Are trapped in their own causes. I want to help liberate as much as I can and seeing you all Take your different steps especially with family Because Jenna and I think every week we'll talk about family and Every time I share something I feel like she she she unlocks something on her end And every time she says she or something with me I feel like it gives me the strength to unlock something on my end and it's just this like Constant ripple effect and feedback that Yeah, I think it's it's miraculous. I think there's a divinity there That I think honestly maybe straight people don't can't really tap into because we have We have very special. I don't know our circumstances are so not unique, but like unique to the queer community Yeah, I just like just that like Synergy that like inspiration synergy that just happens so much. Oh my gosh You both are making me think of this question. It's like why did you? Honestly, why did you wait so long to come out to like come come out like I think of like the real coming out experience for me Is when I came out to my mom you know what I mean like I have like so so why did you why was it so difficult for you to come out to your parents? Wow How long we got Man, I could go first. I think, so the purpose to this is when my dad, this isn't the only time he experienced me, like or caught me interacting with like gay either pornography or like whatever materials. There is one time where I had, this is so embarrassing. I'm excited. I love you guys. I'm going to share this to you. This is my gift to you. But in high school, I had found like an erotic story like website where they just tell stories because I was like, oh, I don't know, this is more like low key and I could kind of like print it out and read it whenever I want. It's not like I'm looking at porn or whatever. Well, I had printed it out at home and immediately my friends were like, hey, do you want to hang out? And I was like, yes, I'd love to. Printed it out, forgot to like hide it and left it in the living room. I'm in. So I'm like out with my friends, it's like 11 or 12 at night and my dad calls me and he's like, get home right now. And I'm like, well, I'm out with my friends. He's like, get home right now. And so I get dropped off home and my dad, my mom, like, opened the door. My mom's like on the couch with the papers on her hand crying. And my and my dad with his arms crossed. He's like, get in the car. We can go for a drive. And I don't know. I don't remember how long we drove. I don't it was just the most shameful, probably moment of my life. But the thing that he told me which defined my, this was the narrative in my brain that actually made it really hard for me to come out for so long was he said, Tristan, we need to be perfect for God. And that I don't remember what else he said. That was the only thing that I remember. And that was seared into my soul. And that kind of set the stage for how I lived my life in regards to pursuit of holiness, but also the intensity of how I locked my queerness into the closet. I mean, the weight of that, the weight of perfect. Yeah. Yeah. And and Phil, how sorry? I told you, I was probably 16, 15 or 16. And though, and Philopinoes are very, not just conservative, just traditional, like, rule based followers kind of like follow. And as I'm going to, there's this mentality of follow these goal posts along the journey and you'll succeed. The moment you deviate, you're like, effed up. And then so for so long, I held to this golden child perfection, which I did really well. I was really good at it. And also, it helped me achieve the goals that I wanted. But it didn't help me grow the way that I wanted to grow. And so, and then again, when my brother passed away, that image of the golden child was just demolished because morning was too hard. It was too hard to to leap as a golden child. I needed to let go of the identity. And in the moment, and I did, the queer Tristan came out and being like, we can do this together. Like, I need to enter into your life and integrate. And then so, so it took my life having to go to the depths of hell to unlock that door for the true me to be integrated. And so, and then after that, honestly, it was like, okay, well, let's go because I've just done the hardest thing in my life. Coming out is truly hard. And it's probably the second thing hardest thing to go through in my life. But it's not as hard as seeing a brother pass away. Let's let's do it. Wow. It's just it's so interesting how like just though those moments, you know, that small moment in like the car with your dad, how that's just like something like that can just be so ingrained in how words are so important. I hate the like the whole like sticks and stones will break my bones and words. What is what is it? Six and stones will break my bones. And words will never hurt me. Yeah. And I'm just like, no, I mean, uh, words are fucking are like, are so hurtful. I feel like words are why people like don't see a future at all and see just darkness now. But I'm just saying like I could see why like, you think about that a 16 year old who's just trying to figure out what the like how the hell to do this thing called life and look to their parents as the guy. Yeah. Wow. And to have to do it, to have to do it by yourself is really the the gutting reality of it. And then so a lot of people have to do it by themselves. Well, I guess yeah, to answer your question for me, I think why we laughed earlier is because you've got to either laugh or cry about it. It's really such a hard and painful thing. Like, I've told you this in this, you know, but like when it comes to like movies and stuff, it's always like parent child storylines that just like undo me. I just, I'm a weepy mess because it just brings up all this stuff for me. And I think that really is at least in my situation. Of course, everyone's situations are so unique to themselves, but what was so hard for me is I do love my parents so much and have always felt so loved by them and look up to them in so many ways. You know, my dad's a pastor really, I mean, they're my parents, you know, everything about who I am, my value system that was forged by them. And I think particularly growing up in the church when you're, you know, your parents are so involved in ministry, everything is all wrapped up together, right? Like your personal sense of faith and your belief in God and your purpose in life and addition to like your family relationships, your social community support system, all of that is all wrapped up into one. And so I think because there was just this deep sense of love and trust and admiration, I really didn't want to lose that and I think I had so personally owned the particular brand of theology I was raised with that I was also personally grappling with my concept of like queer identity and all of that for myself too. Like this was first and foremost something that I was trying to work out for myself. Like what is this okay? Like I thought like it's what it wasn't even a question of mine. It was not okay. And it was for me, I think it was really my brain maybe subconsciously trying to protect itself because that awareness, you know, that you're talking about Tristan, for me didn't come until like after college like it's such a long time. Like looking back of course there are so many signs, so many of very like obvious signs that like make me laugh now, but like it just was never, I never gave room for that to the possibility for myself. Like I think it was very easy in that world to kind of rush that off all to the side because like you know marriage was all about you know having this like symbolic resonance of Christ in the church and the symbolism of the men and women and like you know disciple making by a childbearing and like it was kind of frowned upon to take a worldly approach and be like you know marrying because you're like somebody even though like functionally that's what you know everyone was doing anyways, but at least as far as like what you were saying is like the point of marriage and the point of romance. It was never really centering desire and yeah attraction was supposed to be like or it was yeah just it was very superficial and like you know it has to be more than that, it has to be substance, there has to be your scriptural basis and so because I was not experiencing attraction to who I was told I was supposed to be experiencing attraction for, I was like oh I guess I'm just very spiritually mature, I guess I'm just very like on board with like the kingdom of God and all you know all of his purposes and so it just was never something that I had to engage with or learned how to engage with I think because going back to what we were saying about representation like I just that was not something I saw like I never saw two women together and like you know I have I'm happy, a committed relationship, like barely in the media and definitely not anyone I knew personally. But yeah, there was just not really any example I could look to. And so I had no creative imagination to picture anything like that for myself. And so the only concept of being gay that I had in my mind was like pride parades and Ellen DeGeneres. And I was like, I had nothing about-- I had created those two things resonates with me. Of course, the pride parade clips, I would see, would be the most extreme images of the leather community and things that felt so far removed from my lived experience as a young Asian girl growing up in Southern California, young Southern Californian, pastors kid, all those things. And so yeah, I think it wasn't until-- yeah, end of college, starting to think about my future in very real terms of like, OK, like, what do I want for myself? Career wise and otherwise. And then just even with the evolving world and increasing representation in media, I was just starting to see more queer characters on television and movies and more nuanced depictions or just varied depictions even where I was like, oh, that's interesting. Why am I so interested in these characters and these storylines? And then it was a lot of denial for a long time. And then, yeah, a point of acceptance and acknowledgement, but so much fear and just entering that dark period that we were talking about earlier of what possible future is there for me. I really did-- could not picture one. I kind of envisioned it as holding on to a moving train and a stake in the ground where the moving train was this realization about the reality of who I am and the things that I naturally want. And the stake in the ground being the entire world that I knew, my community support system, my faith belief system, number one, above everything else, and just feeling like I can't hold on to both of these. It's going to tear me apart. And yeah, it did take me to a very dark place where it felt like I didn't want either of those options. And so life maybe isn't worth living if that's all I have to look forward to. And it did take me to a place of being very strongly suicidal for a while and just really struggling with making it through-- like trying to roll through the motions of being involved in church and trying to be just a normal church girl, trying to love the people around me well, just while feeling like I was kind of sinking. And that was really what drove me to the point of finally coming out to my family. It was really desperation. I think I just really did not know where to go. I didn't want anything. I wasn't like, you know, didn't have a partner already. I didn't have a world I was trying to run away to. I was just trying to keep my head above water and there reached a point where it was harder to not say something than to say something, which had not been the case until that point. And so yeah, I think there's such a strong poll, especially-- you know, Tristan and I talk about this a lot when you're the oldest. You have such a-- so much of your identity isn't being kind of this trusted confidant of your parents in these authority figures in your life where you feel like if I don't have that, then what worth do I have? Who am I apart from that? Or at least that was the case for me. And yeah, it was like earth shattering for so many reasons, you know, like my own-- the crumbling of my own personal faith and then all of the relationships that I felt like were forever going to change to be like, look at differently. All those things played a part in why it was so hard. And it was just a really long process as well, getting to that point. And then even from that point forward, figuring out how to navigate that together and figuring out what's feasible. Because I was trying for a time to be like, I don't want to lose this community. Like I want to still work this out. I'll talk to whoever you want me to talk to. It was a lot of that for a while until-- that also became unsustainable. And I had to walk away ultimately from that particular church community altogether. And so I feel like my story is somewhat unique in that I was never really hurt in the sense of a situation or a particular relationship where there was this kind of conflict or damage being done other than what naturally is from the ideology itself. But I feel like I was trying so hard to hold on to these connections. And I also wanted to kind of prove something. I'm not what I was told, this caricature of a queer person is. And like, fully me in all of like, I'm trying to take all of this so seriously and really do my due diligence, leave no stone unturned, which was a lot of hard work and that took so long to do first by myself and then with other people as well. But yeah, all I have to say, I think, if anyone else experiences or has felt anything similar and has felt like they just can't picture anything really worthwhile from that side of things. I'm just so happy to say that I was so proven wrong in that sense. And there is-- to borrow the biblical language like an abundant life that feels so worth living that is full of so much beauty and so much joy and so much distender love and support from those that you find around you. Yeah. And yeah, I'm just-- yeah, so thank you. Oh, my. Jenna, oh, there's so many things I want to say to you right now. And just for listeners, I mean, Tristan, you know. And I know like, gosh, Jenna is one of the most genuine, loving, thoughtful, just like salt of the earth people. I don't even exactly know what that phrase is, but like that's who Jenna is. She's just like just, just, gosh, just such just an amazing angel like human being. And I can't even imagine now my life without her and this world without her and Jenna, just to hear that there was a time where you thought that like it was-- that there was an option to take your life. I mean, I just-- I can't even imagine you not being a part of this world because you have so much to offer and like-- and it's just-- it breaks my heart how that is such a common option for these incredible human beings like you. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to add to that, that I think Jenna, to have gone-- I don't know, to have watched my brother in desperation, figure out life. And for you to have made the other decision to stay and then rise up beyond that and pick your life up and choose to fight for you in despite of this fear of losing everyone. And then after that, choosing to try to figure it out and then after that, choosing to step into another faith community that could like hurt you again. There's just so much that you had to do, honestly, buy yourself for a long time and figure out, buy yourself and choose to then intentionally go back into community and refigure that out. I think that requires a universal strength. That strength is-- that is God. I don't know what else. I don't know where else that could come from, but God. When your old community is like, that's not God, you are proving to them to the world that like, no, there's this divine strength that comes from within. That's been given to you because you deserve and own your life and that you deserve a space in the world now to tell your story. I think there's just so much strength there that's to be shared. And I know Luke will say this too, but I am just deeply and profoundly so thankful that I get to even be in the presence of such strength on a weekly-- I don't know. This is the first time I'm hearing you share this part of your story. So I'm just like floored. Like I feel like-- I have a good friend in college who used to say, I feel like God's love is squishing me. It's so intense that it's literally pushing me down the floor and I'm being squished. by love, like I feel like that's the love that I'm feeling from your story. It's just so intense. I can't even stand up anymore. I'm just being squished to the floor. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I love you both so much. And I mean, that's honestly like, that's the same, that's exactly how I feel about you too as well. Like I mean, every single one of our friends has overcome so much just to get to the point of even like where we all met each other, you know, and I think that's what is so profound about our connection is everyone has done that love, like to that degree, that kind of work on their own, you know, and we're now finding this incredible support system in one another. And yeah, it's funny. I know we talk a lot about, you know, our concept of God and how that's, you know, things are being put on the table and kind of we're trying to figure out what things we hold on to, what things we don't and yeah, I mean, that was a challenging thing for me coming into even a space like new Abby where it's a lot more progressive, but yeah, like I just have felt so like, I'm really trying to figure that out. Like, what do I believe about God, does God have personhood, does God have a concept, does, you know, all of those things because there's so much of that tide to what I was raised with that I had so many grapplings with, but exactly what you're saying, just like if God or divinity is that just transcendent awe-inspiring wonder that just can't be explained by mere coincidence, and that's exactly what I experience with all of you as well, you know, it's something that inspires so much incredulity at how sequences of events could lead to, you know, these amazing things that we see now in each other and like, it's beautiful. Like, it's hard to find another a better word to encapsulate what that is and yeah, whatever that is, that's what I believe in, I think that it's just amazing. I mean, gosh, there's two things that I want to say, and I'm going to say the second one first, and then remind me to say this other thing, okay? Like, this is the question, like, you know, and I'm thinking about it and we've talked about it before, it's like, you know, like, who is God to us, you know, and like, like I mentioned, like, Jenny, you shared with me and Tristan one time in it, it really resonated with me about like, you know, just the moments you feel deep love and you feel deep wonder and you feel peace and joy and, you know, you're like, that's God to me. And I'm like, you know, what, right now it's easier for me as I'm figuring out things day by day, I know the the experiences and people and things that I say yes to and things that I choose that that help this love bloom inside just like the this conversation right now, I just feel so inspired and I feel so full of wonder and so excited for the future and I just feel so like at peace, you know, and I'm like, gosh, like if this is God that like for me right now, I'm just throwing, you know, God is these feelings and I'm going to continue to say yes to the things that allow me to feel these because, you know, just for so long, I thought of God as just like this being that's far off in the heavens that I can only say yes to an experience when I'm worshiping, you know, when I'm singing loud and it's just again, like I had never said what I just said to anybody else and then I shared it with you and it's just it's so important like the commute, the communal aspect of living together like we're we're hard wired to connect as human beings and that just helps us answer those big questions so like it's it's just beautiful like thank you for letting me chat with you about those and like also like not having to figure out the answer right now, you know, that's something too like I'm just so used to friends and family needing to fix everything and finding the answer even myself just like finding the answer because then they're certainty and I'm learning that like fucking life is just uncertain like it's it's the only thing certain is that we're going to die like you know, it's just like like you know, yeah, so yeah, I just like this is just such a beautiful moment that I get to experience with you all because you chose your truth. You know, and I just like I just this is I love our pauses because we're just like processing and you know it and letting it in and like the other thing I want to say is this is what parents and loved ones and friends need to know that queer people process on their own by themselves day after day after month after years before they have the courage to say hey mom, I'm gay. Yeah. Hey, Aunt, I like men. You know, so I have so important that in that moment to just be joyful and just like knowing that yeah, you may have a million questions going on, but just knowing how long it took and all the courage and resiliency to just make it to that moment. I think it just important for for parents and families and siblings and everyone to know. Yeah. Absolutely. No, I it's true. I when you said it that it took years to get to that moment, I felt that like so many times I said to myself, maybe I'll come out now. Maybe I'll tell this person now, like so many times and so many times I let myself down and be like, I can't, it's not yet, it's not time. I don't want to because I don't know, I've thought the amount of hours I put into thinking about it probably was like a full-time job in itself in my brain. We could have been using that brain, you know, power for so many other things. So many other things because the world told us that we don't fit. Imagine a world where people no longer have to be afraid and they could use their full selves to do what they're called to do instead of they're using all that energy and allotting it to being afraid and having to protect themselves. And that's why I want to have this conversation is because we want to create that feature where people no longer have to really allocate that much energy just to protect themselves from from talking to their family. Yes. Thank you for just bringing language to that in the sense it's like you did like I needed that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think to add to what you're saying, Luke about just for parents and family to be aware of what they bring, I think it's I truly believe that most people out there really are trying their best and really do care for their children and are, you know, I think everyone would acknowledge that they're imperfect and that they don't always know what to do and have very genuine fears about, you know, their children's well-being or if they're from a faith background, their spiritual destination and their capacity to be along to their community. All of those things are wrapped up together and I really doubt that anyone's like, how can I make my child's life harder, you know? But at the same time, we know that so many people experience so much pain and hurt in their family relationships in particular. I feel like it's just it's such a common experience for queer people and I think it's it's so many things to add up over time. It's when you see like, you know, like two men kissing on TV and you hear someone say, oh, why do they always have to include that? Or like, you know, it's those little moments that really build up an impression over time where subconsciously you're, you know, being communicated to that, like, oh, this is not okay and like, I, that better not be me because then I won't be okay. And it's hard to get complicated because particularly when you are in a Christian, you know, household where you believe that like your child will not be saved if this is not something that they repent of or choose to see as morally repugnant, you feel like the loving thing to do is to protect your child from health fire, right? And you'll take, you know, whatever measures are necessary to do that because you love your child. And I think that's where things get very complicated and muddy because yeah, your child may or may not share that belief faith wise and regardless of the case, you know, the message being sent is this is not okay, it's naturally, you know, These naturally occurring desires that you experience make you morally repugnant, you know. And that really does something to a person, especially when all they want to do is the right thing, you know. And the, yeah, I just would hope that anyone out there would understand, yeah, like you're saying, look at the weight of their impact on a kid. Even an adult kid, adult child, is, you know, those things still bear so much weight. And you have so much potential to be a safe space to somebody just even, even if you disagree, I think that you can still hold that space of acknowledging how hard it is and just being willing to listen, you know, can go such a long way. We'll be right back to the second part of this episode. 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I'm so excited to bring my passion for marketing, authentic storytelling and branding into this workshop and create a one of a kind experience for you that's really going to help you. The group of people that are already signed up are some bad ass entrepreneurs and humans and I know that we're going to leave this masterclass elevated and so freaking ready to do the damn thing in 2023. If you feel like I'm talking directly to you, I love to support you and have you be part of this. Now enjoy the rest of this episode. Yeah, the ability to just listen. Listening is such an act of love to just close your mouth and just listen and I. General, one of the things you said and I've been talking about it a lot to friends, to some family, been journaling a lot about is this silent acceptance. What that means to me, for example, so it's been seven years since I've been out and there were family members that I came out to and they're like, "Oh yeah, I accept you." And then for the last seven years, have not heard anything that's affirming, have not seen any outward actions do not bring up. "Oh, have you, are you dating? You're dating the guy right now or just like there's no language or actions at all that affirm that I'm gay." And I shared it to my mom with this once and I shared it last, I was at a diversity equity and inclusion training and my mom was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you shared that in." And it was like, "I grew up, I loved SpongeBob." My mom knew that I loved SpongeBob and she would just buy me a computer, sit down and watch SpongeBob with me or ask me it out. But I was just like a little kid. These are all actions and language that she would take without me saying mom. I love SpongeBob. These are the exact things you need to do. So I know that it's okay that I like SpongeBob. It just did it out of love. And that's what I shared with my mom. I was like, "Mom, I need you to take some actions like that. I need you to ask me about, "Oh, happy Pride month or do you want to go watch this new movie that came out that has queer representation?" Something as simple as just like, "It was so sweet because today my mom is doing it. When that happened two years ago she wasn't but she just bought a flag outside of their house that says welcome and there's a rainbow." She's so doing it now and I feel so loved but two years ago it wasn't happening. And just that whole silent acceptance, I felt that I was having to go back in the closet, time and time and time again because it's like I never was affirmed for 22 years. Then hit 22. It was like, "Oh, okay, I accept you." And then never hearing it again for like five years. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I need to hear it more than once." Like, "How many seconds are in a day? How many days are you going to do?" Just like, "Does that make sense?" Yeah, that's interesting. For context, for listeners, I just came out last year and what I realized was it took, well, what I realized was I spent years pondering about my own queerness to the point where I made the decision to come out and then I told my parents and what I learned was that it would also tend then take them years to ponder the same thing. And that there is a resilience called to our stories where we just want to be fully accepted in the moment. And I think we get, hopefully we get little tidbits of that, but I think there is also then this resilience and patience we're called to wait for people who, for the first time, have to now process it because we ourselves are processing for so long. And it's a certain type of pain to not get that immediately and to have to wait for that processing to start occurring and for it to, I don't know, you'll never finish processing, but there is this certain pain that I think queer people have to go through. And then also to see them take the steps to go from, I think I'm very proud of my mom in the last, I didn't come out to them for another six months, I started coming out to my friends first and then for practice and then to my parents eventually. And I'm very proud of my mom because she kind of, it was really hard for her, but then she started taking on her own steps, she started taking curious steps, she started asking me, "Oh, are you dating now?" And I think part of it was just like, she just needed to know, like she just needed to know, but I think also I'm very proud of her. - What are you getting? - Are you getting dicked down? (laughing) - Oh, God, I should have said that I would run away. I would physically jump out of the car. (laughing) - I know, I would do, I would like, - If we were on the freeway, I would literally unbuckle my seatbelt and jump out. (laughing) - Dying. - But yeah, no, I'm very proud of her curiosity because I think so many times, kind of what general is talking about, for to maintain their integrity and what they believe in, they never get to the curious stage. But I think you can be curious without necessarily being affirming and I think that's a great first step because you could just wonder what it feels like to be in that person's shoes. Without necessarily being like, yes, I totally agree because I'm constantly curious about people, not necessarily agree, but I'm curious how they think, how they feel. I mean, I think it's a great step for parents, if there are any parents listening to this, to just wonder and be curious, oh, I wonder how my child feels about this. Without fully being like, okay, I have to agree with everything, just wonder what they feel about, or think about certain things because I think that will create the bridge to those moments of conversations that will really allow healing to happen. And when my mom first asked me that question, you don't know how much healing I got because now it opened the door that we, I never thought I'd even have a conversation with my mom. - Tristan, thank you for just reminding me of that because like, so I've been out for seven years. When I feel like the community is I surround myself like you both in our friend group and other like, you know, I'm part of a light year leadership, just a self-development community. And I just have like all these friends where I'm having these accelerated like self-discovery conversations and I'm learning more. And I just feel like, you know, I'm on this momentum, like this like, "Haspeed Rayal just going," you know? And I'm like, and a lot of people around me are to the point where they are. And then when I go back in certain family and friend communities and organization communities, I'm like, I just bring this expectation to them that they need to be at this level. And you just reminded me that I hate, I do not like this acceptance process for a family needs to like be this thing that takes time. Like I don't, I wish there wasn't pace. Like I wish we didn't have to go have all this patience for our family and friends to fully affirm us. And thank you for reminding me that that's just the experience that we're going through in this lifetime. And I hope that future generations don't, it doesn't have to take so long. Like I hope it doesn't have to take, you know, seven years for my mom to do all these actions she's doing now, but I just appreciate you reminding me that when I throw expectations on other friends and family. So so thank you. Like I needed to hear that honestly. And to even to tap into the same thing that I think the same type of strength that Jenna tapped into, I called it divine strength earlier. I think each and every single one of us tap constantly into divine strength of being patient. Like that takes an insurmountable power to be like, now I have to wait for my mom to come around and say the things that I've wanted her to say. Like there's a certain level of power that I think is superhuman that is required of all of us. And I think that's divine too. That's a different type of power, but it's, I think it's better. Yeah, I think, yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think sometimes it doesn't feel super possible. Definitely not easy. Because I think for my case in particular, a lot of the people in my life that still belong to a certain brand of theological belief, I really don't expect them to ever change their minds. And I think as hard as that is, I do have a lot of sympathy for them still because-- and this isn't the case for everybody who grows up Christian, but for me coming to terms with having a queer identity came absolutely hand in hand with all of my theological beliefs, my concept of how do I define sin, how do I define what we call the gospel and the message of salvation, and human nature, biblical harmonutics and interpretation, all of that stuff was all interconnected. And honestly, that was the bigger piece for me than the queer identity piece. And it was earth shattering when I came to a point of, that's no longer my foundation. And honestly, that kind of came first before coming to terms more with my queer identity. That was sort of something I was vaguely aware of. And all that to say, it's a huge ask of someone to be like, are you willing to completely re-examine how you view the world and how to define what is right and wrong and where we're all headed, what the point of it all is? That's a huge ask of someone, especially when the implication for them is they're belonging to a community that gathers around very specific beliefs. And frankly, what I felt when that all fell apart was, for me, the hardest thing that I went through. And I feel like, how could I ask that of somebody else to lose their relationship with God, potentially or their concept of God, and their sense of purpose and belonging and identity? And not to say that you have to do all of that to become affirming of queer people, but at least for the kind of world I come from, I think, that kind of is the ask. And yeah, I don't expect-- or I don't feel like I have the right to demand that at anybody as much as it hurts to not have those people be affirming in my life. And again, because that was me for so long too, I do have a lot of sympathy for that, because I know the playbook, I know the arguments, and I know how good it feels to belong. And so I think where that lands me now is, what does it look like to have a relationship with people who do have such fast disagreements with about your view of the world and identity and what is right and wrong? And that's not something that I think is an easy answer for, it's something that you navigate one day at a time, situation by situation. And I think there can be a lot of love still expressed even in that when both parties are committed to that figuring out of things. I don't know what that looks like five years from now. So we can talk again then. But at least for now, that's something that I want to figure out. And that may or may not be the right call for other people, that may not be a safe endeavor, may not be a reciprocated endeavor. That's so specific to each person. But yeah, just figuring it out as we go. - I just want to ask this question. It's like, how do you love people who just believe something so differently than you? How do you hold that both and? And I think that's a bigger question just outside of the things we're talking about. Just look around at the world we're living. I feel like things are just, I was chatting with someone today at Fresno State, the university I went to, it's like, she's like, I get so nervous to share that, I love Jesus at my college campus because I feel like if I share that belief then someone is just gonna cancel me and be like, no, like they're talking about how people that are gay can't exist and it's just like, I feel like that's not the answer. And this just reminds me like we talk about this a lot. I really believe that the queer community, the queer community who are asking themselves these big questions and having this resilience are just gonna help push forward all of society in other ways. Like I just, I'm so proud to say that and I see how that's happened in my, the house that I'm like, I'm staying with my mom right now and I see how that's happening and like, beliefs that I've never thought would change or change, you know, all these things. So I just, I really believe that we're doing so much more than what we're doing for ourselves. - Yeah. Yeah, and I think I'm gonna try to tie both of your answers and that question together in the pursuit of being curious about our lives, about our lives. new path, our new, or our emergence to become our whole selves. And in the pursuit of being curious, we almost require our, the people around us to be in a constant state of surprise, to be willing to be surprised by the love that evolves through us. They are just in this space of like, I didn't know this is what the queer community is like. I didn't know this is what it, I didn't know that God could show up in these ways. I didn't know. There's so many I didn't know moments. For me, as I evolved, as I transcendent, as I became more of who I am. And as we ask people to remain curious, I think we also then bring this reality that we will surprise them. The our reality is a surprising reality that I think the world needs because the world and the world is so dark right now, the world and people just need to latch on to clarity. And clarity is very seldom given. And when surprise comes and pierces the darkness with light, that in itself has a profoundness to it. And I think for those who are listening as they're trying to seek how to understand, to care for those who, in their lives are queer or different, be curious but also be ready to catch the surprises. Don't let them pass by. When you're surprised and be like, wow, I didn't know that was going to happen. Stay there and think about it and ponder it and explore that with your loved one. Because I think that is how you stay. That's how you choose to stay in hard relationships, especially when the beliefs are clashing. Those surprising moments be the building blocks or something that allows the relationship, the both of you to evolve together. While still maintaining, I think what both people believe, allowing that to happen, but I think allowing the relationship to be evolved by surprise and then moving forward from there. I think it's a really great step that I'm allowing myself to to walk through and kind of asking people to walk through with me. Yeah, I love how the language you brought to that, you know. And it's just like, because my experience is I've shared my truth being queer and Christian with certain family members and they blast an opinion. You know what I mean? Like the opinion comes and I love the other option you're giving Tristan. It's like, oh, that's that's a surprise. Like, you know, oh, wow, that's that's a surprise. Like I just like, oh, like that surprise. Like, I don't even know if that's something for them to say, but I just just in their head, like, oh, that surprised me. And I think to to allow themselves to not question what they believe in, but to allow themselves to for a moment think and receive beyond it. And they can choose to go back. But to be like, actually, there is something more to what I see that maybe maybe God is a little bigger than I thought. Maybe God does work in a way wonderful, like different ways than I thought. Because I think are as humans, we desire clarity and with desire protection and survival. And so we tend to just stay in the circle. But as queer people, we're not afforded to stay in the circle. We can't, we cannot stay in the circle. In fact, something that one of our pastors said to me that just blew my mind is, you know, Tristan, I'm really, I'm really lucky to be queer. And I'm like, what does that even mean? And she said, you know, what had her normative relationships, straight people are immediately put into boxes by the, by the world. You have to do things this way. You have to act this way. You make this much money. This is the job that you tend to, whatever, this is how you have sex or whatever versus the queer community. It's like, I get to, there's a, we have the opportunity to redefine those things. And then so we have the opportunity to be surprised often. And I think those around us are constantly going to see us be surprised. And I think in turn, I'm excited for my friends and family to be surprised by the type of love that emits from my life. And they get to choose to watch it, they actually have to choose to watch it. Or they could close their eyes. They can. And be silent for the next five, seven years. But those who peak into my life, I think will be pleasantly surprised that God still remains here. And there's so much love to be had by watching my life evolve. Yeah, I think, yeah, I totally agree. I think there's so much love and curiosity, you know, like for all that said about the importance of like, you know, humility, like as a Christian value, I think to be willing to set aside what gives you a sense of security about how you see the world and be like, but what if there's more? There's such a love in that to be like, if I am really willing to look at somebody who's different from what I expected and have a curiosity about that, yeah, there's a risk to that. And I think there's a commensurate amount of love that corresponds to that as well, because you're willing to, you care enough to be curious to learn more. And I think that's a really beautiful thing when it happens. And yeah, that doesn't mean like you go from like zero to a hundred right away, because it's like, that's not how our brains work. Like you're only comfortable with what you're comfortable with. But when you're willing to take one step forward and say, oh, tell me more. And, um, just an honest, a year one of, I think, just a master class in asking like good questions. And that's it. I feel so cared for like the kinds of questions that, you know, you ask sometimes, you know, unlock these things for me that where I'm like, oh, I never had articulated how I feel about something, but, um, you know, a good question sometimes gets you like 90% of the way there. And, um, I think similarly for just any relationship when there's a curiosity and a willingness to explore together. Um, I think that's a beautiful thing, you know, and it can, yeah, definitely be complex and messy. And there's a lot of mistakes that can be made, um, even harm that can be imparted sometimes towards each other. But, um, yeah, I think there can still absolutely be a relationship. Yeah. And this is just, this is, this is, you're having me reflect so much on my life right now. And I just appreciate you both for this. And it's like, okay, I just, I'm thinking about my mom, you know, and like, and now as you're sharing all this, you know, I wanted my mom to be like, this day I came out to be like, oh my gosh, I love you fully for, you know, I just love you. Like, I love the more I learn about you, the more I love you, more, you know, and now learning, you know, that's been seven years that like, you know, my mom had 40, 50 years of just this one belief. Like, this was her rock, you know, and like that, that, that, that strong belief wasn't just going to change the day that I shared it to her. Right. I wanted that. And I, you know, I wanted that. And I just look at these like last seven years. And my mom, and I'm going to ask her after this conversation, like definitely had to ask the questions. Get curious. Because I see how she loves me so deeply today. And, and, Jenna, you were there, Tristan, I wish you were there, but you had something, something to do on my birthday. And like, my mom was in West Hollywood, you know, a queer capital of the US with, with wanting to be there with all my queer friends asking to go to the ab, you know, a popular gay gay club like want wanting to go. And I like never in a million years imagine that, you know, my mom is wants to go to Fresno Pride and wants to go to Fresno States Pride flag raising, you know, like, look, all these things like she's, she's interested in P flag parents and families of, of lesbian and the gay community, like all these things happen. And it's like just this patience, you know, like this patience, it sort of feels like just this, this beautiful, like wave of love that I'm being held in right now. And that's just been, you know, I would say the last, I don't know, four months. And it's just like all these things you're sharing. I'm like, oh, wow. that makes sense. I have a little more sympathy for my mom. Those moments where like because like Jenny you just said my mom throughout this process shared so many things like not I don't want to say so many things, but I think of two instances where she said something that deeply hurt me and I didn't talk to her for a certain amount of time and I talked to my mom daily and I like we both had to sit in that discomfort and I for her it probably was a little more I don't know what it's like to be a parent you know I'm just imagining but but but from being in that like having to get more curious and being like you know how can I still love the love my my son and I'm not I haven't asked for all those questions yet but it's just so beautiful of just I don't know I've never thought I like I you're I'm just putting puzzle pieces together so thank you like for helping me put puzzle pieces together and for like for both of you as you're just more at the beginning of this and maybe for listeners that are at the beginning like I am seeing just gosh this this possibility that I never ever would imagine and I feel just the most love that I've ever felt from from her and yeah if I never would have came out like I would have never felt this and it just fucking amazing I'm like sweating right now because I'm just so like feel that I'm so passionate about this and they're I'm just I just want to hold that that picture of hope that it's possible and and look I want to I think it'll take me and my mom time to get here but it sounds like you and your mom are there already one day I want to ask my mom and I'd love to see if you'd be willing to ask your mom this sometime but one day I want to ask my mom mom what was one of the first things that really surprised you about me after I came out what were some of the things that you thought just weren't really true about a queer person and you're like actually Tristan rewrote that for me like that would be that one of the most healing questions and one day I want to have that conversation with my mom and dad but it seems like you're in this really blossoming state with your mom and I think that was just that question I've thought about for for years and I kind of want to give that to you because it would it it would be a really healing question for me. Oh my gosh okay sometime this next week I'm totally gonna ask her re-repeat the question again what what did I say? What were some what were some things that as you saw me live up my queer identity? What were some things that surprised you? What were some things that you learned about me or about me being gay that just didn't fit in your in your mind before but now has a space in there but I think there is this like what were you surprised about me now that you know that I'm gay to actually then receive that from her I think would just be amazing because she's looking at your life constantly and she's constantly being like Luca is an amazing person. Oh yeah I received that and I'm gonna do that I'm excited I'm excited to share with you both what she says because I know and my mom sometimes like to think about things so she may not have the answer right off the bat but I know she'll think about it and share so I'll for sure share with you both. Trusted agenda this conversation like come on come on I mean I just it's my my heart is so full right now and I know the three of us can just talk for for hours you know but like one thing that I just want to leave the listener with whoever's listening to this at this moment in their life I just you know I want to especially like to the allies that are listening you know and you know I feel that you know that there can be straight allies and even like there can be queer allies you know what I mean there's ways for like you know a queer person to affirmate another person so I would love we we've shared multiple on this episode already but I would love for each of you to share just one one action one action that um that represents ally ship so you know let's just say someone's listening they're like you know what I want to be a better ally to my queer daughter or my queer nephew or my friend that identifies a part of if it's non-binary you know like how can I what what is something that I can do so like Jenna what's something that like yeah what what's something that maybe someone in your life has done you're like I feel just so seen um yeah please please share something that's on your heart yeah I mean I think the biggest thing that comes to mind for me is I feel so loved when someone does the work of trying to educate themselves and I think like one thing I really appreciated with my parents is I would send them you know a podcast to listen to or an article to read and when they would engage with it I felt very cared for because I could sense their desire to try to understand better um regardless of you know where their belief falls just like that curiosity we were talking about earlier um and I think you know a lot of well intentioned people um can sometimes ask uh questions that are really um burdensome for queer people um and of course I know they would never intend to be burdensome or hurtful but um yeah Google's right there and there's like a wealth of resources now you know compared to even five definitely 10 years ago um so many people that have shared their stories from you know every point on the spectrum of background um one a huge one for me was the Queerology podcast which um you know they feature interviews with all sorts of people that live at the intersection of queerness and faith um a very broad intersection but still uh specific enough to be very relevant to me and uh just to hear you know a variety of stories and how people have navigated their uh their life experiences can be so enlightening and give you so much more empathy and compassion even if you don't agree and I think that's a a step anyone can take yeah yeah for me the the the the the the first one that's popping up is just listening is just listening with an acceptance energy you know we're just just because like I mean you know when someone's listening and they're carrying like the judgment is like right here the elephant in the room and just like even even if the judgment is coming up but just like catch it and just like listen just just listen and uh a firm with like with with the sentence I want to actually play something right now I saw this on Instagram and you two may have seen it but it was this beautiful um I saw it on p flags Fresno Instagram and this human shares away um to a firm a child when they come out okay so here here it is when your child comes out to you as gay or trans don't tell them that you'll love them no matter what of course you do but that's what you say to a child when they've done something wrong that didn't meet your expectations it's what you say when they've been caught feeling a candy bar or cheating on a test instead you want to say someday the conveyance there's nothing wrong with being else in vt2 instead tell them everything I learned about you makes me love you more I love finding out who you are and I'm so excited for the rest of the world to do the same also do not tell your children that you are afraid that life will be harder for them it's not your children's responsibility to carry the weight of your fears they'll be 20 capable of discovering fears on their own they do not need yours too when a child comes out the only emotion needed if you need to express is joy that this human said it's so beautifully yeah I remember hearing that and really wishing that my dad had heard that before he said the things that he said which he said those things literally those two things which I fully accepted when he said it but also wish he had the language to to save those things the way that she said it and so so for me words of affirmation and quality time are two of my love language and they're just things that like just it just make me feel so loved so when when an ally like I think about when a family or friend um during pride month say like happy pride I am I'm so thankful for your expression who you are because da da da da da da say something genuine and just that makes me feel so sick and it can be something that is just so simple, you know, a genuine text like even last year my mom on Facebook and I know these things seem small and for me they're huge. Like my mom on her, her Facebook image did a little border of a rainbow. Um, you know, I think of a coworker. I was just with the other day. It was the first time we were in person because of COVID, we built a relationship two years virtually and she pulled me aside and said, "Luca, I just want you to know that I see you, I hear you and you are so loved. Just know that I'm in your corner. I support you as a queer human. I have other queer friends that I support." And I mean, a coworker does not have, she did not have to say that but just like taking the time and saying something so intentionally with love. Like she could have assumed that by the way she acts around me that she creates this safe space. You know, she could have assumed that, "Oh yeah, like, you know, I love who, for you who you are." But I need to hear that. Like I need to not just assume like the power of language. You know, I just think about like when I go to a new town and it's a town that I get a feeling that it's more conservative and maybe that's me being a judgment but I think I have the okay to be in that because I've been in a lot of conservative towns and been hurt by people. You know, I just, but like, I was just as I'm on my my freedom flight living the nomadic life. I was in a small town near Portland and I walk into a coffee shop and I see a queer flag and I walk into a different grocery store and I see a like a queer like a just just a sticker with a rainbow flag and just something in my nervous system relaxed because I was like, gosh, that is the sign that this is a safe space like something about just those those small things like that are so powerful for me and I know they're there for others. So for those listening, just know that like something like that may not seem so big and you're like, oh, everyone's doing it. But just know there's people that are watching you and there's like followers on Instagram that are your family and friends and something as simple as posting something on an Instagram story that says like shout out to all my, you know, amazing queer family. Like I love you something like that. Like it does. It speaks volumes. Do you do you feel that? 100%. Like I think for like the closeted friend or kid who sees that and knows that like, oh, I could potentially talk to that person like I'm not ready now but like I could talk to them. That could be the you know the difference between life and death honestly. I think Luca you had previewed like in a conversation we had before shared about a statistic about how if a kid has one affirming adult in their life like the suicide rates drop, you know like significantly. By 40%. Yeah. I believe it. I 100% believe it. Because man just to know at least one person I could maybe talk to like that's a game changer honestly. So something that yeah you might see is just really small or tried or even like cheesy or whatever like yeah that could really really do something. For me, I think my one actionable step for allies is I'm going to share my favorite question and I've asked Jenna this question and I probably have asked you Luca this question but in the state of because we talked about being curious and wanting to be in a and a poise of being surprised. A really good question to ask. Just in general but I think to ask people who are very different than you is what is it like to be Luca? What is it like to be Jenna? And just letting them and maybe having the preface of like okay now that you are out now that you have shared now that you have are evolving what is it like to be Luca now? And I think that gives that just gives the freedom for the person who is gonna share they just have all the power to paint whatever they want to paint and just kind of be ready to listen kind of like Luca said but that that question allows the talker to have complete power. There's no there is no preface really to that question other than I want you to paint the picture for me and I'll just take that picture and look at it and I'll try to interact with it but Luca you paint the picture for me Jenna you paint the picture for me so what is it like to be you? Is a great question to remain curious and hopefully be surprised by? I like that so much because I think especially like what I always have in mind is like the conservative on affirming Christian and what that question does is it leaves space for them to be wherever they're at and still express like care and curiosity you know they may not be in a place where they feel their conscience will allow them to even consider being affirming but that bridges the gap and allows them to still care for you the best way they know how without taking a stance and yeah just caring for you no that's really a really good question. Friends thank you so much for just sharing just your truth and you're just being so vulnerable and being okay with with all of this because I feel so I feel like a part of me is healed in the last you know a few hours that we've been recording this so just thank you. Absolutely thanks for inviting us you know I was telling Jenna I was like oh man this this may be the first podcast that I'm on or I'm openly like gay and it's scary but this is a gift to my younger self and I think I'm needing to I'm needing to do this and then so yeah it is scary but I think it's helpful it'll be helpful for so many people including myself. Absolutely echo that too like knowing how hard it was for me like yeah if anybody can like even glean a single thing that's helpful at all then I'd be so grateful and yeah and it just even for us too like this has been so like healing and wonderful to be able to just kind of articulate and process together so thank you guys I love you both so much. I love you both too. I need to share this one of my friends was like like actually not my friend I'm like I guess if I friend this guy that I bet on his. This gentleman that I bet on his was like you know Pete I just he's like it's sort of annoys me when people just throw around I love you so much like it just takes away the meaning and I said you know what I understand because I said that I like a few years ago I said that and I was like you know just but the more and more I accept myself and love myself deeper like gosh it is just so much more easier for me to build like a loving relationship with someone else and I have never said I love you more than I've said in the last like six months and I'm like you know what it's it's it's it's genuine so yeah I just I love that we just have said I love you a lot it's it's amazing yeah and I think if there's anything that I could say to I guess two groups out there um any parents with queer children whether they're young or adults just want to say I you know I don't know what I was like to be a parent but I imagine that it can be terrifying you know you're figuring everything out for the first time and you I don't think there's any life transformation that's greater to become a parent to become responsible for a whole human life and I know that most of y'all out there are really just trying to do your best and have so many fears so many things you don't even know how to put words to you just know that you feel afraid or feel unsure or maybe there are some things that you feel sure about and you can't imagine not being sure about what you believe to not be to be okay or not okay but all I would want to say is to echo what Tristan was saying earlier if you can commit to curiosity and just wanting to learn more and doing whatever it takes to do that I think you know wherever you fall I think you can still have a relationship with your kid um a beautiful one even um and you know how that all works out as far as like you know boundaries uh you know all of those things I think it doesn't have to be so complicated um you can commit to we want to be able to be in a room and share a meal together watch movies together to build a laugh together and we don't have to have our entire concept of, you know, the Google Harmonia did all worked out right away, you know, we can figure it out a step at a time and commit to doing that together and be okay, you know, and to any just queer, I want to say kids, but I mean for me, I was an adult, you know, navigating all this, any queer person out there that feels like so new to it all or just, you know, late in the game or just like desperate, just trying to figure it all out and not feeling sure if there is any viable future that's worth living, you know, one, like take all the time you need, if you don't feel ready, you're not ready, that's okay, like it's so, so long, but there will come a time where it's harder to, you know, stay closeted to be repressing it all than to not and when that time comes, you'll know it and there is such a world awaiting you of incredible people and incredible experiences and a lot of lessons that will be learned, you know, it's like it's not all sunshine and rainbows, it's a lot of that, but you know, it's still life on this earth and you know, mistakes will be made, lessons will be learned, but just beautiful memories will be made as well and yeah, it's so worthwhile, there's so much ahead of you and yeah, hold out for it, it's worth it. Jenna. Wow, oh my gosh, I am receiving that. I need, I need to hear that. Wow, that was just so, both of you, I am just in awe of how you bring language to thoughts. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. I feel like my heart grew through this conversation. Yes, I'm all for arts growing. Wow, okay, so the last question I have, and then we're done. Okay, so both of you close your eyes, get real comfy wherever you are, take a deep breath in through your nose, let it out through your mouth. What does it mean to live free to be? What does it mean to live freely to be who you are at your essence? So this popped up in my brain immediately. One of my favorite songs of all time, I would say my theme song forever is actually I can go the distance in Hercules and the very first lines is I have often dreamed of a far off place or a great warm welcome will be waiting for me. And I think of, I think of being the most free that I can be and being one of those people who welcome those who are seeking a place to be welcomed, where they're meant to be. And I think to be the most free is to have the power to welcome, to be on the other side and being like, you're meant to be here. And I think to me that is the most free, to be able to have the power to welcome people. That's beautiful. What came to mind for me actually was something that you said earlier, Tristan and in the context of what we were asking of allies, to love well by being curious. I know it's so cheesy to be like, you can't love yourself, you can't love others, but I think it's it's true. I think that same application of having curiosity for yourself in the same way that a curiosity for other people's expresses love towards them, it is a love toward yourself that I think to me is synonymous with freedom because when you're curious to explore and discover new things about yourself, that is freedom. You know, you're not confining yourself to a preconceived notion of who you think you should be. You're allowing wonder to kind of take the reins and you move forward into the unknown and see what you'll find. And you know, I think people can be a lot of, be very afraid of what that means. Like, is that a moral free for all? Is that just like doing whatever you want and you're a ball in a china shop? And I really don't see that being the case because that's not appealing to me at all. If anything, I think it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability to take that risk and yeah, give yourself space to figure yourself out and allow yeah, to see what you'll find. And who knows, you might surprise yourself and you also open up the door of possibility to so many beautiful things that you might have not considered. And so yeah, to me, that's what freedom is about. Let wonder take the reins. Such, yes, yes, and I love how you freaking quoted RuPaul. You can't love yourself on a hell if you love any. I actually know how to see exactly. If you can't love yourself, how the hell are you going to love anybody else? I know, I just watched RuPaul. This is my very first season watching it. So I need to watch it more to know exactly what they say. Okay, my friends, thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I know there are so many podcasts out there in the world. So you being here with me today means a lot. I just want you to know that. I hope something in this episode really helped you connect to your truth in a deeper way and you're leaving this conversation just a little more clear on who you are at your essence. Let's connect on Instagram. My handle is @Luca_Potrucci. That's lucca_pt.rucci. And send me a message and let me know what really hit home with you. Talk to you soon, my friend, sending you a huge hug of love.