Nations Pod: Where are the home nations at?

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Check out the 2026 Toyota RAV 4 at your local Toyota dealer or is it Toyota dot com? See packages and options at Toyota dot com for feature availability. Five lives rugby union weekly. Weird. I'm now in the corner, oh, completely. Well, if you press a little grid with all the squares. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, getting a technical lesson from just look at your bottom. Yeah, those are some use of software for a while. You just got to click that. Anyway, the nation's part is back. You may have heard Tom English technically. It technically is a new lease of life as we go into this new international block. Growers here, Tom is here. We're all here for what hopefully is an eagerly anticipated nation's part. We're back for the first time since July. And it's so good to be here. It's so good to be just a matter of seconds ago. Tom dropped his first bombshell of the day where he proclaimed that he had nothing to say today. And he asked both of us Chris to carry him on this recording. Now, if you're new to this podcast, you may be somewhat fearful that this may be a very dull. Listen with just one dry Welshman and an enthusiastic Englishman leading the way. But there is no danger. Anglerwell English being lost for words. Anglerwell is very topical. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you are new to the pod, welcome, but have no fear. Tom is the boy who cried wolf in this situation, isn't he? Because we have been here before with the, oh, I've got not got much to say, you guys are going to have to lead the way. And then as our producer Adam says, the next thing, you know, it's a pipe of plain and sonnets and Limericks. And he's singing all the way for the hour. I did. I was at a 60th birthday party on Friday night. And I did end up with with plenty of gargol on board. Reciting the workman's friend, which is the old to a pint of Guinness, which we had on the pod. And we were doing the, uh, the, the city's pods. So I did, I did recite that to the room. I was for roomful of musicians and I just thought, I just thought, I better, I better do something here. So I did my, a pint of plain as you know, wasn't by popular demand. Should we put a pitch it, should put a pitch into our listeners as well. We, we, we are in discussion about meeting up again to recording some specials, aren't we? We've done the foot and the nation, the cities, the, the host city. So if you have any ideas, you listening of what we could discuss, what you'd like to hear a six nation teamed on six nation's team. Yeah. In January, maybe four shows specifying or concentrating on one particular topic or four separate topics. Drops are lying good at Chris. I mean, Tom and I are produced with messaging. So just go direct to Chris and then he will siphon through it. Yeah. CS Jones, nine Instagram, Rob, you know, we clip BBC look at UK great shot grow. We will be getting together. Hopefully back end of November, maybe around the finals weekend or into December. We can record some specials because they were great. Those cities pods, which actually they should still be there because they all kind of evergreen content. They weren't, you know, dependent on who had won or lost on the weekend. So our cities pods that's going back about it. That's going back almost a year. So time has flown. You said you've not got much to talk about. Tom, why is that the nation's championship is resuming. All in Argentina, Italy, South Africa, Scotland, New Zealand. Is this the year for Scotland to topple the Ural Blacks? Well, Japan, France, Fiji, England, Oz. There is lots to look forward to. Well, it's kind of sneaked up on me and I'm still kind of in shock at the way Edinburgh have started the season. Although they lost it the weekend, but the one four matches in a row. And I'm really kind of reeling, reeling from that. So you're so staggered by that. You can't really focus on anything. I'm I'm a new completely off course. Yeah, I think come, you know, I come Saturday. I come Friday for the Ireland game, but it's come Saturday. The old Blacks at Murrayfield. I think I'll be fine. I'll be I'll have my head back in the game. I do have a few things to say about Scotland versus New Zealand. But then after that, after that, you're on your own, boys. I mean, let's let's start. And Scott, you see the big grow in terms of the month ahead. And and this is for those who maybe have been paying full attention, half attention, no attention at all. It doesn't matter. You're all welcome. This is the resumption of the nation's championship. They started in July with everyone playing three teams. And they play another three teams. And then there's the finals weekend at the end of November. They play all the different teams. So if you think about it, the six, the six teams from the six nations. And then the likes of Australia and South Africa, Argentina, New Zealand, Fiji and Japan, 12 teams. Everyone plays everyone through the calendar years. So yes, there are no tours anymore. And yes, there are no repeat games from the summer. But what we do get is come the end of November. We will have had everyone in that top 12 playing 11 test matches once against all 11 of the other top nations. That's what the nation's championship is all about. And I do think, Road, this is going to flow a little bit better through November because of the geographic simplicity compared to what we had in the summer. Yes, we haven't got Fiji playing in Liverpool, haven't we? To start with. Or teams flying cross-emphasis, left-right and centre. Yeah. And there is purpose to these matches now. And there are tables to be referred to and finals to be played in. There will be criticism of this format. But I don't think anybody claimed that it was the perfect format. It was a way of gaming or turning what were effectively friendlies. Or I'd argue they were test matches into a format that offered some competition. I'm still really excited about it, and I'm excited about these three games. I have trepidation and concern about the finals weekend for a number of reasons. Ticket sales have been the obvious one, the idea. Logistically, it's a solution that all games have played at the same venue. Are we going to get a, is it going to feel a little bit like a school's final day where supporters are popping in and out some are there for until half time and then they turn up or they leave at the same time. So there are issues to be eyeing out. The final results may be one of those situations where, especially if we see New Zealand and South Africa romping away in this autumn and they're not playing each other in the final, that's going to bring some criticism, of course. But I didn't know what I'm pretty excited about it. I wouldn't say I'm more excited that I would, I'm not more excited about Wales, Punjab, because of the autumn series. Does that make any sense? There's still big tests. I can definitely see the value in having them being part of a competition, as opposed to being, as you say, kind of glorified friendly, albeit high-stake test matches that meant so much. It's going to be interesting about finals weekend. I mean, I'm just looking now, you can get a three-day pass for 240 quid. That's a lot, but that's six matches, that's 40 quid, a match. Of course, that's a huge outlet, and it's a huge commitment to go and basically camp and twicken them for your whole weekend. But the problem is, we don't know who's ending up in what game, and we're not going to know that until really late on in the day. So I understand why tickets sales have been slain, but I'm not sure of a way around it. Of course, there could be more publicity. Of course, the organisers governing bodies, we could have had way more noise. There can always be more noise. We'll do our best on this pod to hype it up, but the governing bodies have a responsibility for their own product as well. So, yeah, we'll see, Tom, but I kind of think, as we're talking just off air, are you coming down? Yeah, but which game has Scotland got a bit genuinely, don't know. What we do know is it's north to south every single game. Personally, I think if the box win all their matches, and the all blacks win all their matches, they should be playing in the final, but they've made this a hemispherical thing, and let's see how it pans out. Yeah, and okay, so it says it is the France versus the box. That is a significant match. Do you think these players will see it as a really, really significant, like something different, like a final. Like something, you know, there's a trophy at the end of the week. No, I think the biggest question is, will Razi see it? You know, you're at the World Cup. Well, Razi, I think there's a strong potential that Razi might not pick his starting 15 in the final. To make a point. He's going full-ball for Italy this lunchtime, so not to make a point to stress his squad. Right. To look at the individual players and go, right, okay, this is the closest you can get to a, I wouldn't say a World Cup final, but maybe the closest you can get to a World Cup quarter final. Are you ready? Are you in that position? Are you the person I can turn to in this situation? No, I'm not Razi and I'm not claiming that he would, but he is the type of individual who would certainly look at this final and go, "Yeah, I'm going to use it to the greater good here, to the final benefit." Yeah, and I think it's no doubt that this tournament and the finals weekend and everything as big as the matches are, they will be in the shadow of the World Cup because it's so close, it's only what's under 12 months away. But I think there is, I've long thought that as great as the rugby World Cup is, man there's too much focus on it. Far too many times coaches hide behind the rugby World Cup as a way of excusing poor performance in the middle of the cycle because, "Oh, we're building, we're building, we're building, it's boring." So I think if the nation's championship can build, it hopefully will be a really cool thing to win as a standalone rather than, "Oh, yeah, we've won the nation's championship, but I'd rather win the World Cup." Of course, rather than the World Cup, you'd rather win the World Cup than a Grand Slam, but you can't tell me a Grand Slam is not massive, even in World Cup year, a Grand Slam is massive. But that's because it means so much because it's been built up over so much time. The nation's championship will never get to that point, but I'd like it to be actually seen as a standalone competition, a really great thing to win and a sign of genuine consistency over two different camps in two different sets of conditions or maybe more different sets of conditions against a wide variety of teams. Of high quality teams as well. Yeah, listen, I think if you win this, you've played some extremely good rugby, right? And there are a couple of teams in there, like Scotland, haven't won anything since 1999. I would imagine they would see this as in its own right as a substantial thing if they won it. Certainly good preparation, I'll go back to your point, unbelievably good preparation for a World Cup next year. So I look, I'm open-minded on it, I think the promotion of it has been poor around it, but I'm very open-minded on it. And I think once we get to finals, we can, it's kind of an unknown about it and I kind of like that. We're all a little bit in the dark, the uncertainty of it, that kind of appeals to me. Who's playing who, we having a clue. That's a bit of fun. You boys in for the Hemisphere Shield as well? Is that doing it for you? It's not, it's not, but that's going to be a such a side show. What's going to be important is who wins it, who beats who, who plays who on the final day. I think they have explained what the Hemisphere Shield is. It's a separate trophy awarded to a Hemisphere. Yeah, it's based on the combined results of the nation's title. I don't, I don't absolutely hate it. The fact that Japan and our Northern Hemisphere team have to pretend to be a Southern Hemisphere team is kind of a flaw with it. I don't really think, I know it's been a kind of long-standing thing, but I think it was more of a thing 20 odd years ago when say the Southern Hemisphere was so markedly stronger than the North. When Australia, South African New Zealand would come up here, it was impossible to take their scalp. Those scouts are so much more common. The gap between the North and South has been narrowed or be it with a big caveat that South African New Zealand have dominated every World Cup since '03. I'm not necessarily going in for the Hemisphere Shield, but again, like Tom says, let's stay up in mind. I just want to read this from Johnny Wright and then we'll get on some specific matches. He says, "This is from the pod the other day with Hugo Ashian Danny." He says, "Listen to the pod where the guys are talking about who's buying tickets to the nation's championship finals weekend. I'm a debentureholder of Twicken and I've bought tickets to all games with the idea I'll be able to sell the tickets because I'll just go to one day. But I haven't far much interest from any of my friends who love a good day out of Twicken. I've played the game, they're all understandably saying we don't know who's playing, so why would we buy a ticket? Is this not the perfect opportunity to have taken the Inverted Commons lesser matches, 6v6, 5v5, 4v4, up North to leads or Manchester an opportunity to grow the game around the UK, but every game at Twicken means the pitch will probably be all for come the final and they probably won't sell every ticket over the weekend for what should be a great spectacle of rugby. I do like some of those points, I think the pitch has been relayed and the Twicken and pitch is a great mix. I actually don't have too many concerns on that front but I think what do you reckon guys, if it's stronger to sell the 6v6, 5v5 game in London, would they have any more luck selling it in a different part of the UK? It's still the same problem though, you don't know who's 6v6, who's going to be 5v5. So you just don't know what you're marketing there, whether you bring it to Manchester or wherever you bring it. It's like saying, "Okay, we have a massive concert coming up at Wembley next July." "Oh right, okay, who is it? We can't tell you that." But just buy your ticket. It's one of six. It's a way, sis, maybe I'll say, or Taylor Swift. I mean, it's kind of weird, it's kind of weird. But I think to Johnny's question, I take the point, but I think the whole point of this nation's championship finals we can grow, going forward, will be to have everyone in one city and have all of those fans. And it's not like a rugby world cup final, because everyone's gone home, about two sets of fans. This could be, if well marketed and it's a tough time of year, but this could end up being in Spain, it's going to end up being in other parts of Europe. This could be completely different parts of the globe. Twelve top teams and their fans in one place. I think that's got a lot of potential to be a pretty special weekend. Yes, Spain, Middle East, the US. No, between no. No, it's not going to happen or no, you don't want it. No, I don't want it. So what are we saying? So we're going to have finals weekend in the Middle East. So who's going to, from this part of the world, is going to go to a more traffic-getting rugby fans to London than you have to guitar? How many? Clearly. You'll be about one man in his dog watching those games. It's about how many rugby fans are going to travel to Madrid. You're hoping to sell to a fresh new audience and you're hoping to sell the TV and track sponsors. I mean, I think we're. Well, that's just no point having a product on TV if no one's there. Because I hate watching games of sport when no one's in the ground. You're telling me that you can't see the nation's championship final being held. Finals weekend being held in UAE. Oh no, I can. I can. That's the problem. Yeah, I think they work there. I can see it, but I think that would be a. I don't think that would work, necessarily. And there's lots of different reasons we could discuss. But one of them is. If Bill Sweeney is speaking this morning about the selling the tickets for a Friday in London where rugby fans, a lot of rugby fans around and a lot of rugby fans are an hour or two flight train away, then I think the Middle East is a complete different cell. But I think what they're hoping grow is in fullness of time this finals weekend will become a bit of an appointment to attend. Yeah. In the same way the European Champions Cup Challenge Cup finals weekend has become a bit of an appointment to attend for rugby fans. A kind of bucket list thing. Yes. Shall we pivot to Scotland? Yeah, OK, let's go to Scotland. Scotland and New Zealand. Yeah. Tempos to Saturday. Sports extra two for the top team from BBC Scotland of which Mr English is central figure. It's the time, Tom. It's been great. You know, we spoke about PR and marketing and publicity. But I've seen a lot of Scotland guests, Gregor Townsend's been on. Finn Russell's been on your pod. So in terms of a nod to the S.I.U. I'll be seeing Scotland players out there talking this tournament up, talking their New Zealand game up. And that's great. Big time, I mean, we had for our Scotland rugby pod last week, we had six players. I mean, they put up six players on a rotational basis. Finn Russell, Blair King, Orange, Jack Dempsey, three others. Seb Steven, the young Glasgow hooker who's in the squad who's got a lovely story to tell. It does really good. Plus we got Gregor. You know, so it's a really good access. You talk about selling it. They're selling it. And it's, I think it'll be a terrific atmosphere at the weekend. It's been a while, 1921 years since the first game, 1905. That 1905 team. Obviously, Scotland has 33 test matches between Scotland and New Zealand. New Zealand, 31 wins, two draws. Scotland, zip. That 1905, the originals then, the first New Zealand touring team lost to Wales. So that New Zealand team, right? William Wallace, otherwise known as Billy. Duncan McGregor, Bill Johnston, Alec Mcdonald and Frank Glasgow. I mean, like, this is Scottish boys. You know, second turret, whatever they were, this is a team of Scottish boys. And for 121 years and 33 test matches, they've been inflicting the most extraordinary amounts of pain on Scotland. Most recently, like last three or four games have been close. Obviously, there's been some absolute turkey shoots in the, in the, in the 121 years. But the most recent ones, the last three under Gregor Townsend have been close. And close, kind of almost makes it even worse. You can, you can understand where you are with a 40 nail or a 60 something. But when it's eight points and eight points and five points. Well, it's kind of games also, Tom, that if they're not wearing black shirts, I think Scotland win that game. If they're wearing the exact team, playing the exact rugby is wearing white shirts, given what Scotland have done to England the last seven, eight, nine years. Yeah, I think they win the game. Maybe, yeah, maybe, I mean, you look at, say you look at the last one, right? Which was this time last year. And they lost Scotland last year. the 25-17. There were 17 no-downs, Scotland, early on. They came back to play Cosmic rugby to get it back to 17 all. New Zealand played 30 minutes at that match with 14 men. The three yellow cards, and they still won Damian McKenzie, pops up in the last 10 minutes, dominates the show, Scotland penalty count climbs, they get a bit of panic, get a bit of fear of the winning line, I would say, to back up what you're just saying, and they lose the game. The previous to that, November 2022, New Zealand go into a 14-nilpe lead. Scotland come back to get it to 14 all. I think they were winning in a half time, actually, 17-14, Scotland. But it's just, it's agonising, watching them. It's absolutely agonising. They get so close, they play such good rugby, Scotland. And then last five or 10 minutes, it's just all taken away. Our New Zealand take it away. Our Scotland take it away themselves by bad decisions under pressure. I give them Scotland a big chance. I know I'm almost hating myself saying this, but I give them a big chance. Let me ask you something, Tom. I'm giving you the Springbok pack. First, second, third, you can pick from whoever you want, okay? Which backline would you select behind that pack, the Scottish of the New Zealand backline? I don't think there's much of a difference, to be honest. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wasn't, look, that's, you could, do that noise again, Chris? Okay, this is Scotland backline, but 50 points, 50 points on France. Yeah, I'm thinking while I'm going, I would say any backline that's got Cam Roy guard, Jordy Barrett, Bowden Barrett, like Will Jordan, Damien McKenzie, Quinterpire, I like the Scotland backline, but I think we need to be realistic. The New Zealand backline is still better than the Scotland one, I would say. That's, there's certainly one more test matches, one bigger test matches. Well, individually, individually. Yes, I think the way Scotland have knitted together their backline when they're on song and that combination, 10, 12, 13, the role of the wingers, how, you know, Carl Stain's just one of those players, assume he'll, he'll play Carl Stain, they're just watching him for Glasgow, it's sail the other, you've just reminded him at what an efficient footballer he is, he comes off the wing, he makes zero mistakes, he's one of those guys who don't think would get near the New Zealand team with lots of respect, but when you put him in the Scotland set up on a well-oiled Glasgow setup, he looks, he's such a good player. So I, I think individually, the all blacks are better, but Scotland have got a really well-oiled machine behind the Scrum and that's been going on for a long time. It, it, it, it is and, you know, they, they score lots of points to Scotland team, you know, 50 against France, 40 something in there against Argentina, big squad, I know they lost it in South Africa, but they played some unbelievable rugby there, they routinely do a job on England, scoring lots of points. Like this is a very dangerous, I mean, I mean, just picking between New Zealand and Scotland, back lines, it's, you know, this is a very accomplished Scotland back line. Yeah, and I think, I think very, very accomplished. I think the fact you, it's a difficult discussion is good context, isn't it? It's kind of, it's where Scotland are now with their back line and what they can produce and the danger they possess. And I've been listening to a lot of podcasts from New Zealand this week and they are fully aware of the danger that the Scots bring to town and they are concerned of a potential defeat. Yeah, I think they are. I mean, we had Mike Blair on our podcast a little while ago, we had Clark Leidlow from Jedborough, son of the great Roy on our podcast this week. Hurricane's coach, obviously, young super rugby and he says, look, I'm telling you now, they're going, they're going to go full metal jacket, the old blacks. They are not resting anybody there because they see this game as a as an absolutely loosable game for them. And that's, I mean, let's get that because Scotland had given them an almighty scare for three times in a row now. And to your point, Chris, yeah, if there weren't black jerseys where they are, they weren't the aura of the Kiwis, would Scotland have one one of those? And that's still there, though, isn't it? That's still the record and everything. That's still that's the why we love Chris Borks as good as these players are, they're still susceptible to pressure and tend to the weight of history and all those things. I think that was one of the, that was a great chat with Mike Blair. I loved it. And one of the, the, the biggest endorsements I think he gave off the Townsend regime was how Scotland have viewed globally, particularly in New Zealand. And when he speaks to, to Jordy Barrett and Boden Barrett and Will Jordan, players of this repute, they know the Scotland players and they know what Scotland can do. And that's a, that's a real, I think, further in the, in the cap of the Townsend era, we could get into the weeds about whether they should have won enough where they should have won a six nations by now. But I think that was, that was something that reached it out from that chat. The bit though that is a concern twofold is, this is a New Zealand team that are ticking nice the end of day for any. And I know they took a couple of beatings in the greatest rival series, but with the context that's in the backyard of perhaps one of the greatest teams, if not the greatest team of all time. And secondly, you're, you're getting them Scotland at the front of the month. You know, England played them on weekend three by which point all of that toil that the old blacks have been through in this uniquely, arduous calendar year they've had. But there's, they're going to be freshness in the, in the New Zealand legs, I feel at the front of the month. So part of me from a sort of neutrals point of view, but once you Scotland to do it would be, ah, could Scotland have just got New Zealand a little bit, a little bit more jaded rather than bouncing into Edinburgh and still feeling like they've got plenty to give. Yeah, and yeah, that's fine. I mean, you could paint your all your perfect scenarios, you know, but they've got home advantage. Apart from Jamie Ritchie, they've got a fairly clean bill of hell. But it's a much better New Zealand team than it was this time last year. That's the, that's the absolute, but you can't have everything, you know, you can't, you can't have everything, you know, I mean, the stars are not going to align in that sense that Scotland are all fit, they're all firing their winning games for their clubs and New Zealand are coming here jaded and out of form. I mean, when is that ever going to happen? All of those things. So you have to take the rough with the smooth. Certainly the smooth with Scotland as they're apart from Ritchie. They're okay on the injury count and a lot of these guys are playing a lot of good rugby. There's a small Edinburgh contingent, admittedly, but at least they have their winning games, which is unusual for them this time of the season. So they're going into camp feeling pretty good about themselves, Glasgow feeling pretty good about themselves. So it's a good Scotland squad. I mean, I believe it when I see it. I'm saying I think this might be their time. It's probably not going to be their time, but it might be their time because I can see, I can see Scotland if they can stay, if they can play for 80 minutes or close to it. I think they can, I think they can win this game. The problem is they get to 70 minutes or 75 minutes. I think start to go wrong because New Zealand start to turn the screw. These top-class world-class players who are just used to winning, winning, winning, especially against Scotland, they know how to get it done. They know how to apply pressure in the right areas and Scotland, an overthrow to line out, a bit, a bit, a bad discipline. They're marching down the pitch, penalty to the corner, line out, try, game over. That's McKenzie bossed them last year. He absolutely bossed the show. It's unbelievable performance in the last 10 minutes from in. That's what they're capable of. It's Scotland's belief, to the genuinely believe that they can beat this team. That's fascinating game of rugby and a game of psychology as well. And if they win, Tom, if Scotland were to beat the All Blacks, how big a deal will this be? Will it take Scottish rugby for that weekend into the level of football in terms of headline-making? Yeah, I would, yeah. I think it would, yeah. If they were to beat the All Blacks for the first time ever, they'd be, it wouldn't just be a sports item on the news and on radio, it would be a news item. So it would be a massive deal. Now, it would blow over very quickly, but it would be on the day, it would be, depending on what else is happening in the country, of course. But it could lead the news here. If Scotland were to beat the All Blacks, for sure. And a Scottish rugby fan, if asked, a slam or a kiwi defeat, a victory? Oh, a slam. Okay, no. A slam, because, yeah. I mean, a kiwi defeat would be amazing, historically, and all the rest of it. A title on points difference? Yeah. Yeah, take the title on points difference. Definitely. Okay. A triple crowd. A triple crowd. Three, three wins out of five. Triple crowd with humiliating defeats to Italy and to France. No, a title for beating Ireland, which never gets done. I've said it before on the part, if there's one team that Scotland want to beat, it's Ireland. They would love to beat New Zealand. All sorts of things. I will take, before we move on, because we've got loads to get through. I would take Umbridge and the fact that they would rather beat Ireland than New Zealand. No, they were offered New Zealand this autumn or Ireland next spring. You think they're taking Ireland? I think they're taking Ireland. Ah, no chance. What they're doing is they're taking New Zealand. If they get New Zealand, but have to lose to Ireland and then trying to make sure they be Ireland of the world cup, I think Ireland of the world cup is a different category. They've lost, they can't tell me all that history that you've laid out. I can and I am. They've lost, they've lost 12 times in a road to Ireland. 12 times in a road. But 30 odds in New Zealand. Yeah, but Ireland have rubbed their noses in it for a bite for a dozen years. It immersed in the sport like you, who is who is literally an interested party in that Ireland Scotland fixture in multiple different ways. I wonder to the average Scotland maybe slightly more disinterested fan or uninterested fan, slightly more. I think that the the aura of the all blacks and the you know, they're like beating Brazilian football, isn't it? I still think it would mean more to the country as a whole. I put this scenario to you. I think you're wrong, but I'm sure to be okay. I'm sure to be, but let's open it up. I'm sure to be played. I'm sure to be played to your people out there. I said, no, Chris is right. You're wrong, but you're listening, you're listening to the audience. I'm listening to the two things that they're wrong. Yeah. I know. Well, I might in my view having spoken to so many people here. I think there's a depth of feeling. There's nobody has any animosity to New Zealand in Scottish rugby. Nobody has. Everyone loves the all blacks. Love the hacker. Placed to be packed to be an amazing atmosphere. There is this there is this deep rooted animosity when it's this Ireland Scotland rivalry because Ireland constantly put them down. Ireland constantly say, oh, you look at you. Scotland, you're talking to yourself up. There's been multiple incidents between Glasgow and Munster over the last 10, 12 years. So there is there is I grow between these two nations to absolutely and 12 defeats in a row and put it this way, but say Ireland do win the Six Nations games, a Friday night at Murrayfield against Ireland. They win that game. That's the monkey after back. Then they'll go to the World Cup. Without the package, without the monkey on the back, without this this inferiority complex, if they beat Ireland again in the World Cup, that bottom half of that draw opens up spectacularly for whoever wins that group. I mean, it's a really because obviously a lot of the heavy hitters are in the top half. I think it's key. It's key that Scotland beat Ireland in the Six Nations. I will go to my grave, boys, saying that this game matters more. This win would matter more to Scottish fans. You're listening to the nation's championship, our Ireland Scotland people. Let's get get out of Scotland fans. What are you saying? Do you agree with with with with Tom? And I want I want if Scottish fans are getting into it. I want them to be honest because I want them to be honest. I want them to be honest. What do they honestly feel? What win? What would they what would they celebrate the most beating New Zealand or are you saying? Roving Ireland's noses. When I asked that question, I generally expected a one word answer or two words. Well, as I said at the top of the part, I don't have much to say today. We're struggling for concept. We'll be talking for 40 minutes and we barely got through one game. There are three, four, five, seven matches. That you haven't got seven, one, two, three, four, five, six, six matches. Six matches. Okay. Where are Wales? Groustifer. Groustifer. Bit more optimism following the fact that the run is done. Wales have won games. Wales have shown some flashes of competitiveness. Great against Italy, decent games, Fiji, average and the other two games. I think it's been very enjoyable and very insightful to see the amount of Welsh players who are absolutely dazzling in the preem as confirmation clarification that we're not an absolutely shocking rugby nation full stop. It's also an indicator of how difficult it is to sell yourself when you're losing on both French, both internationally and domestically. The case in point, I mean, there'll be columns written, podcasts talking about Jack Morgan ad nauseam because he is an incredible rugby player. But the perfect example is Arnwain, right? He went a calendar year without winning a game who's still the best player we can week out, play for the dragons. Like, and we always had, you know, he had to wait in the wings for six, seven years of his career because the greatest Wales eight, okay, someone say moving Davis, but in my opinion, the greatest Welsh number eight of all time, one of the greats of all time to Lupifalta was just there trucking her up, we can week out. Wainwright is an incredible rugby player, and it's just been so lovely to see him in the preem just showing the world what he's always had. And he's not the only one doing it. No, they've been terrific, so many of them. And I was watching Gloss of the Night and Max Lwenden scored and you know, we've seen a lot of Max Lwenden at the international level. And then watching Cardiff Northampton and Mason Grady. And then Eddie James as well. Those are three massive men. And I was thinking the one of the problems Wales have had is power. Like, they've been dead short of power. And I know that's mainly in the forward pack where you need to go forward. But there are some, they've got some athletes as well. It's, you know, we know how well some of these guys are playing in the preem, but I looked at those, look at those three. And I'm like, you can't tell me that there's not ability for Wales to get good front football when they've got these kind of athletes on their books. And so yeah, I think the first few months of the domestic season, both you are see, but particularly preem, to your point grow is show that there are good players. And now the challenge for Steve Tandy is to get consistency, cohesion and a team out of it. Because it's not like there's not like there are a load of nobody's. He's a guy who can pitch up and do it in their club shirts and look really, really good. I think the first positive, right? Set piece, depth chart at props for the first time in a while. Three really good loose heads. Archie Griffin is going well for bath. So you've got Archie Griffin and Thomas Francis at tight dead, that we like is a shoe in a hook. The stats when it comes to, to the set piece has been fantastic for Wales in 2026. 93% of scrums and line notes, you know, they've not struggled a set piece. They've struggled elsewhere. They've been outpowered, completely steamrolled by the spring box, but so many teams are at the same time. The question for Wales is always a 10. I'm still not sure who the first starting 10 will be, who do they back? And in midfield and you mentioned Eddie James, he's one of those guys that is impressive on TV, but even more so when you stood next to him, he is massive. Yeah, the big men. Yeah, he's bigger than you think. He's massive. He's, you know, heavy, powerful, strong fast. He's also got some lovely hands. He used to be 10 back in the day as well. So he's got soft touches. As a collective, we've all been screaming for him to be picked at 12, to be used as a decoy and a crush baller. Steve Tandy has said to us that he will be picking him at 13. Now that opens a curiosity. Who does he play at 12 then? Does he go from another big guy in Maxlwellin or does he go for a second 5/8th? And that would be in Ayrin Owen, who's been rock steady for the dragons for 10 years. And again, he's benefiting from now playing from a team that's not losing like these. Well, I thought that'd be Hawkins, wouldn't it? Or Hawkins would be the most obvious one to come. So you go for a playmaker or do you go for two crush ballers in midfield? So it's really interesting. I'm quietly excited about this campaign. I do expect Wales to beat Japan, and I expect Wales to go toe-to-toe with Australia. Perhaps that optimism is influenced by how well these individual players are playing. But I've also been the one who's gone on for two or three years now, but the fact that there's a culture of losing in Welsh rugby at the minute. And these players are not used to lifting trophies and being in celebratory dressing rooms at the time. And the issue may still be that we're. We've just done our review of the first block of the ORC, and we've commented how well the dragons and carnivores do. And they're still only mid-table in the ORC. And you've turned up Tom and said about the fact that Edinburgh until last weekend, we're on beaten. So our standards have dropped quite significantly in five years, not just internationally but domestically as well. Do you think, given all that, given all the stellar performances from the Welsh boys in the Pran, there is a risk of a psychological trauma still there from all the defeats? How do you think, given the good stuff? after they are now playing, that is maybe behind them. The Japan game was the win against Japan, but they run to an end last year, OK? The significant victory was the Italy one, in the sense that that first half against Italy Wales for the first time in three years showed that they were actually a half decent side against a team they were expected to lose against. Well, I think these players are resilient. They've had to be the things they deal with on the field and off the field now. They have been dealing with for four or five years. Means that they are tough guys. They're tough boys who will front up. And maybe it's that pre-tornament. It's that new year optimism. I'm hopeful, I think, that we may see a change this time around. And I think they'll beat Japan not with ease, but they'll beat Japan comfortably. And I think they'll give Australia a game as well. I think the Japan game's tight. I still think that's a really tight game. You've got Japan who pushed a few decent teams close in the summer. Eddie Jones has been there for a while. I think they would have had a good amount of time in camp compared to Wales. It's good for Wales. They get in Japan first up. They'd rather them than the Wallabies and definitely the All Blacks. But I still would think that's a, if Wales win, I don't see that being more than a score or two. That would do. That would do. Yeah, I think I'd get in that. That would do to, and signs that they're progressing. And I think that was the problem with the sum of the Argentina game disappointing, the South Africa game, you know, with all the travel and stuff, that's hiding to nothing a bit. Got the Fiji win, which they had to get against one of the worst Fiji teams. And they'll be much better with the changes they've made going forward. So yeah, it could start up for Wales. But I'm just excited to see those guys, as you're saying, grow, they're not coming in a lot of them with that. That kind of metaphorical shadow having hanging over them and losing matches. Well, let's list these players. You know, they are, there are some ballers there. Louisery Summit. Thomas Williams. Doe Lake, Jack Morgan. Alan Wainwright, David Jenkins. Nikki Smith has been probably the best prop in the pram for three years. And Louis said, "Andry Scarray effect." You know, that's half a team of really good players. So for Wales grow, it's a win against Japan. It's a non-negotiable competitive against Australia. I don't think anyone would expect them to beat New Zealand. Certainly, I remember covering so many of those Wales New Zealand games in the peak of the Gatland and Warburton and Alan Wainira, where there was genuine, a bit like Scotland now. It was a kind of really similar to where Scotland are now. And the comparisons between Scotland and Wales and when Scotland were in the Doldrums and their future in the Six Nations was being questioned. And now look, where Scotland are. And Wales have been in those Doldrums and hopefully emerging in some shape or form. But New Zealand would go to Cardiff and there would be this freeson in the air. And that's gone because there isn't the expectation. That's almost that expectation has moved up to Edinburgh. But I think Wales is quite clear. It's a win against Japan. And then it's progression in terms of their players, isn't it? And then with Scotland, I think it's all about Saturday. I think they beat in Australia. They before that will salvage the autumn. But won't make the autumn, if that makes sense. And then for England, again, in that funny position where I think they would most England fans would perhaps take two wins, but given where they were 12 months ago, they probably should be looking for three. But can you see England off 2026 form beating a New Zealand team that have played so much good stuff? So that puts a lot of pressure on England this Sunday, if Wales is non-negotiable is beating Japan. There's an element of that, isn't there, about England up against the Wall of Bees on Sunday? - I think so. I mean, I guess they've lost a lot of gear. - No, they've won, was it two out of three in the summer? They won, VGA in Argentina. They need to start winning more games. And Australia game is eminently winnable for them. But like how have they moved on? Are they a better side squad now than we saw in the six nations? Do you think they're a best? - Well, this time lost, yeah. - Yeah, this time lost. - But it's a market difference, isn't it? - 12 months, they're 12 months on with the same coaching team and the same head coach and the same everything. And they're all the same players, but 12 months ago then middle of a winning run, bouncing into the autumn. And now yes, the summer was much better than six nations, but still didn't answer loads of questions. - Yeah. - And then there's a selection dilemmas for Steve Borth. I think it's recording this Wednesday lunchtime. Morbal emerge over the next couple of days. Team confirmed on Friday. Finnsmith, the mood music is positive. And not just they need Finnsmith to play because he's so good and he's made that shirt his own, but it also saves Steve Borthwick a big call that would split the room because there is a clamor for Marcus Smith if Finnsmith's not fit. And it does sound like he might pull through. There's a clamor for Marcus Smith on the count, and it's the more attacking decision, it's the more ball decision, and Marcus has been playing some really good stuff the last few weeks. But I would still think that if Finnsmith doesn't make it, he goes to George Ford because George Ford has played so much more rugby for Borthwick over the last couple of years. And this is always the problem in England head coach faces. How do they balance up? All these players playing well, week to week to week, 10 teams to choose from, but really Steve Borthwick, I don't think is looking too much at that. It might swing 50/50s. It might get a guy into the group, but a lot of it is going to be based on what they've done in England camps going back, four, five, six camps, not just four, five, six rounds of prem action. Well, I love this stuff from Charlie Morgan as well. Marcus Smith has spent more time as a scrum half than a fly half for England since 2025. That's 15 camps. And what's also mad about that is in the autumn of '24, Marcus Smith was the man for England at 10. He started all their games, but he did some really eye catching stuff with the ball in hand, but there were times in that South Africa game which England lost, particularly in the second half, when you just felt the game management was where Marcus would have been under the microscope from the England coaches. Then he gets injured before the 2025 six nations. Fin Smith then comes in and makes that shirt his own and kicks some great penalties to beat Scotland in '25 and plays against France and all that. So it's been a bit unlucky for Marcus, but you're right, bro. He really hasn't been at 10 for such a long time. And there've been opportunities to play more at 10 for England that they've not taken. So that tells you that they see him as an option at 10. But at the moment, there's not enough evidence to suggest they see him as a front line number 10 going into the World Cup next year. And maybe this will be the campaign that could change that. Midfield. 12 is Seb Atkinson. 13, I think for me will be Henry Slade because of that credit in the bank and the fact that he was playing in the autumn. There will again be the clamour for Will Joseph particularly has been tearing it up for Gloucester has the connection with Seb Atkinson. But Steve Borthwick, like a lot of head coaches, isn't going to go, okay, those guys been playing well in a Gloucester system will pick it up and put it in the England system. He'll go, no, what have they been doing in an England system? For right or wrong, that will be the thinking. So I would expect Henry Slade to play, but yeah, again, the forward pack largely picks itself. The six front rowers pick themselves, the eight back five of the scrum, largely pick themselves, the nine, the ten if fit, the back three picks itself. It's that midfield, particularly number 13, which has kind of been an issue for England for quite a while, getting that consistency over 10, 12, 13 because at the front of the six nations, Fraser Dingwall was the 12 and Tommy Freeman was the 13 and now Dingwall has been in and out the squad and Freeman is back on the wing. - And he's all over the place. - That's Chris. It's all over the place. And you compare that to the teams that have that consistency and the great example is the box. But the great New Zealand teams had such consistency at 12 and 13 and England just haven't been able to build consistency at 12 and 13. Remember, they had a long standing partnership with Ollie Lawrence and Henry Slade and Ollie Lawrence can't get near the 36 at the moment. - Is Ollie Lawrence, shall I say? - So Ollie Lawrence be in the squad? As a number 13, not ahead of Will Joseph or Henry Slade, I don't think, and as a number 12, not ahead of Fraser Dingwall and set back concern. Probably not, but the counter to use my own argument against me, how could a guy with all of those caps at his age, his age and his cap profile, he should be flying in the English shirt. And whether it's Lawrence's issue, Borthwick's issue, the club's issue, the coaching at England, the coaching, I don't know whose issue it is. But not many other countries would have a guy get to that cap number, at that age, with that experience and then being surplus to requirements. That wouldn't happen in many, in a lot of other rugby. How long has it been since everyone's been asking about the England midfield, and stability in the England midfield? I mean, it seems like this has gone on longer than the most. - Yeah, it has. It's been going on since Greenwood and Tindall. And there's been, there's been, you know, there was time when Manitur Langan, Henry Slade, formed a really good partnership. And then, but then there was loads of times Owen Farrow would play 12. And Henry Slade, for me, is such a class player, but he needs to be the second playmaker. He needs to be, he needs to be a 10, a 12 who is more of a ball carrier and then Henry Slade. But if he is the tertiary playmaker, are you behind the 10 and 12, or behind the 10 and the 15, you don't get the best out of Henry Slade. He then turns into more of a strike runner, and there are better strike runners than him. So it's about balance, I think, in working out, who are your playmakers, who are your carriers, and have you got the best balance? not just in 12 and 13, but 10, 12, 13, 15, and maybe even wings as well when you consider how much they want to get favor both on the ball, how much they want to get free in on the ball, look how much Scotland want to get, well, Darcy Graham, when he plays, or Kyle Stain on the ball, they're popping up everywhere, so that it is about the six outside the scrum half is, and you can put the scrum half into it because a running scrum half works, probably better with a deeper sitting fly half or vice versa. - 13 yellow cards in 2026. - Next best worst whichever way you want to put it, Wales was seven, net loss of 71 points when they're down to reduced numbers. I've always argued that sometimes, when you count yellow cards, each one needs to be judged on his own merit, and it's not necessarily indicative of a cultural issue, but those numbers are quite significant, aren't they? - They're stark, but guys, is that a team, is that a team with a disciplined problem will obviously, but is that a team who, it's just about their discipline, or the fact they've been playing poorly, and the discipline comes as a result of pressure. - Disparation, yeah. - These aren't for high tackles and shoulder charges and off the ball scraps, these are for back foot off sides, and they're not really at the scrum, where some teams would hemorrhage yellows, England don't, you know, Ireland hemorrhage yellows at the scrum, last autumn, didn't they? England don't hemorrhage yellows at the scrum, but they would, some of it is petulence and silly, bad brain mush decisions, but a lot of it is pressure, and break down and back foot pressure. That is the major work on for England, and it does mean that Steve Hawthor can say to his players, look, when it's 15 on 15, it's fine. The problem is, is when you're 14 on 15 on 13 on 15, so maybe that will, if England can sort their discipline out, and they're going to be marked men in the eyes of the refs, understandably so, if they can sort their discipline out, they give themselves a much better chance. - I can't wait for these games. They've all got, I mean, England, what version of England are we going to see Wales? I think the Wales, that's a fascinating one, 'cause for all the reasons you say, grow. Like, is this, and I would say the rebirth of Wales, but is this something stirring with these players playing so well down in England? Is there, is there an early a boat to get some traction now, Wales? Scotland, well, that would be something special, but that is of course, Ireland. And not that special. - Not that special. (laughing) Well, not a specialist beating Ireland, you know? So we could move on to Ireland, but the scout, the scott of fans, lyre, we're dreaming off, you know? The scout that would mean more than anything else, they would rather beat Ireland and lose the other four games in the six matches and win a World Cup, with anything else. - No, no, no, no, no, come on, man. (laughing) There's just, Richard Kees just banter. (laughing) I am pretty convinced that Ireland put Argentina away with a bit to spare, because they normally do put Argentina away with a bit to spare outside, do a die-well Cup. - Yes, yes. - But I look at the, like, I look at this Puma team on paper, and you're like, okay, and as ever with the Puma's, it's consistency, it's their discipline, it's a cliche, I know, the fact they can blow hot on cold and they can smash teams out the water for half an hour and look amazing and then go to pop. Look at that, I mean, Buntoya, Petty, Rubyolo, a backdrop, González, Kremar, and Batera. Albanyl's at 10, Shockabarras, he's a world-class player, Del Guin, Carreras on the wings. Juan Cruz Malia, it's a team of proper, proper players, but that's never really been Argentina's issue, has it? - No, I mean, like, there were the weirdest teams in the global game. I mean, they go to Murray Field, they're 21-0 down and they end up winning the game. Then Scotland go to Argentina and Scotland blow them away. Argentina rallied, scored a couple of their tries, but Scotland, Scotland did a number on them, away from home, having lost to Argentina at home. So I struggle, just like you, Chris, I'm looking at those list of Argentina players. I'm thinking, wow, these guys, this is a serious team, but I just don't know, again, one version of Argentina going to turn up, not a clue. - And you see Ireland as big favorites then. - I do. - Well, I'm not going to pose without sort of asking the same question of everyone. We ask in the same question of everyone, but maybe Scotland, where are Ireland at? Because they should be in a good place, like they really came good in that six nations, thought they were poor in Auckland. What an opportunity to talk about taking and a Kiwi scout, that was so disappointing because I thought that was there to be shot at from an Ireland point of view. But otherwise they should be able to be in Argentina. We talk about the finding games, Tom. It's the bot game and it's the fact that Ireland's record and Matt Galt wrote about this on the website, Ireland's record against teams around them or below them in the rankings, outstanding. They smash Scotland, they've smashed England this year. They'll surely be too good for Argentina. Likewise Australia, likewise teams such as Wales and Italy, but when they come up against the big three, New Zealand, France and South Africa, they've been exposed, haven't they? So for them, the Argentinians are really tough game, but their autumn will be to find or whether they can improve on what happened last year against Africa when they were taken to the cleaners physics. Physically they were absolutely destroyed. Ireland versus South Africa. Ireland won four to the last six against South Africa, but they've lost two of the last three. So it's your right, like the point is, well made against South Africa and New Zealand, France, they've lost all of their most recent games. They've lost four in a row against New Zealand, they've taken two bad beatings against France and a row. So I think they're fourth best team in the world, Ireland. I think they're officially three, but they are not better than South Africa, New Zealand and France. I'm gonna call it, I think Argentina win, we can. I think no Doris, no Conan, no ring rose. Issues are 10 without Crowley and Prennigas as injury. You listed those starters for Argentina. I mean, we know how inconsistent they are, but that's more or less them at full strength, with Montagia and that back row. Can you believe the Crem is only 29, by the way? He seems to be around. He's 80. Ireland have won nine of the last 10 against Argentina, girl. That's the thing I just feel like I've seen this game before and it's one, an Ireland win at 30 to 18. That's why I'm surprised that they've got this as the opening game. There are better games to open up this championship, whether it's France, South Africa, Ireland, South Africa, England, New Zealand, Scotland, New Zealand, there are games I think you could start on the Friday night that have higher profile and more jeopardy than Ireland, Argentina. Scholar would have a game on a Friday night. There we go. That's the strongest song we've ever liked. You think it's too late to change it if we just started to switch Scotland to New Zealand to Friday at 10 past 8. I'll have a word, boys. I'll have a word. Have a word with your content. Yes. Quick quiz for you. Nation's championship quiz. Been prepping for you, OK? Of the 12 teams competing in the Nation's Championship, which is the only club, only country, never to reach a World Cup quarter final. Quarter final. Well, it's. It's got a bit of pan, isn't it? No. 2018? '91, did they? Oh, 2019. Oh, my God. Absolutely. Health on, health on. Quarter final. Quarter final. Yeah. If you do, you've got. Ireland have made a quarter final. Yes. Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I don't know what. I don't know if they've got World Cup issues. Two minutes. It's a semi-finalist issue. Scotland have got to World Cup semi-final in '91. Yes. Italy then, isn't it? It's Italy. It's Italy. And it is, mate. Who's the top scorer of the championship so far? From July. Individual. In our Nation. Individuals. Thirty-seven points. Who's a. Real Jordan. Nope. How was World Jordan scoring it? Thirty-seven. No, yeah. Yeah, it was. Let's see, score so many trials. Conversely. Let's try. Well, capable of it. You can do anything that lad. Once you score over 15, national prize, they only count for two points. Well, Jordan has. Well, Jordan has 30.6 trials. That's a good shot. It's not a bad shot. It's not a bad shot. It's not a bad shot. It's not a bad shot. It's not a bad shot. Apart from the fact that it's actually impossible, it's a really good card. The top scorer is actually Maxim Luku. Oh, I'm going to mention that. Just because we interest in the CFE, get an opportunity to add to that, darling. I think that's another debate. And that's a thing we've concentrated on the home nations. We've not discussed. I mean, France have chronic injury issues, but you feel because it's France. And they've worked so hard at their depth, and they sent a load of second stringers qualities they are to down under. So you feel that it won't be. It's keenly felt to say for Italy, who I've got so many injuries, and are playing into box side that almost. Yeah, that's cruel, actually. That's cruel, actually. I was going to say evil, but yeah, it's. Yeah. That's. That is cruel. But no, what excited. Excited, excited few weeks. Bring it on. And let's hope that the Japanese can build to that finals weekend, if they think it does have huge potential to bring it full circle. Couple of shout-outs. Samuel France has gotten. It's got in touch. Hey, can we get a shout-out to England Deaf Rugby, who won the World Deaf Sevenths in Japan today. That's from Samuel France. There's a report on the website. They beat Wales in the finals. So many congrats to England. Congratulations. And a shout-out to the World Rugby. be refs. I was part of a small group of people invited to go behind the scenes at their conference as they prepped for the nation's championship. All the refs and the ARs and the TMOs were there. The presentations from Jonathan Humphries about the Scram and from Brendan Picker about the TMO, talked about foul play, talked about how the game looks. It was a really good insight into their prep. And I think, you know, that they being a lot of chat hasn't had guys about different leagues, different interpretations. They've all come together to get on the same page. I think we should see a game reft pretty consistently. And I think the stuff around the Scrum, you know, they've been giving really clear directions, over a break, foot over, loose head, right shoulders. And if the coaches and players play ball, then I think we should have good clean contest and the rugby doing the talking, which is what we all want. I just read your stuff, Chris, and a few other things around this. And yeah, it looks, it looks some really interesting thoughts on that. Some from the heaviest hitters coaching hitters in the game. So yeah, a lot of fascinating stuff. One thing, which, another, I mean, so many things stood out, but one thing which left me scratching my head, is this thing about the biometric sensors. Ah, yeah, there wasn't a load of detail on that. There was just a couple of people who they are giving sensors to supporters while they're watching a game to see what rates is the heart rate. I wonder what I wonder could possibly raise the heart rate? I mean, do you need a biometric sensor in your hand? Oh, someone just scored a try from one end of the pitch to the other. I'm a bit excited. And weirdly and understandably or, yeah, not surprisingly, Scrum resets and TMO stoppages particularly didn't seem to get the blood content. He's not, he's not, he's a recon robot, isn't he? Oh wow. But yeah, you could, you could be cynical, but I think the overall picture about trying to get closer to the fan, you know, I think we can all get caught up thinking this game is about administrators, coaches, players, media, the game is about the supporters. And if supporters don't turn up, it's because you're not putting a good enough product out there, you know, and you can look for different reasons and blame this and blame that, but ultimately fans turn up if the product is working. And I hopefully will see good crowds enjoying a good product. I think instead of putting biometric sensors in their hands, put a cheaper ticket prices in their hands. That might, that might reach out to fans. I like more around. Well, this is going to be interesting, you know, if ticket, if some places are struggling, then we have the conversation in the prime a few weeks back, you know, they need to get as much money as they can out of match days, but that's no use if the grounds are full, is it? So decisions to be made on those fronts, but my final thought I think for this championship, obviously when the internationals are on six nations on the autumns, and this is back on free to air, it's the one, it's the opportunity for fresh eyes to see the game, you know, if you're fresh to the game, I am concerned that they're going to be people watching going, gosh, it's just the same thing repeated and it's just a driving moral choice. The fact that they are, especially not some, it is in the prime, the U.S. numbers are insane. Round three of the U.S. 31% of tries came from a five-meter driving moral, 20 out of 65. In the offsprays, dragons game, six tries, six at a 10 tries, were all identicate tries, where it was just a driving moral and a forward plong down. I mean, it's something to be admired from a coaching point of view, but it has to be hard, doesn't it? It has to be, it's not, it's not even entertaining, it's as entertaining as a penalty. Yeah, but if it's not entertaining and it's not hard to execute, then it's neither, is it? Like, there are some things that people would not find as entertaining, but you could admire what goes into it. There was a stat that this day I was at that that said there are roughly eight times the number of tries as kicks a goal, successful kicks a goal. Tries have gone out from an average of six, two years ago, to an average of eight in the international game. But the third of them, I do agree and I don't like the fact that the penalty goal is being is sort of moving out of existence because it's one of the key ways of scoring. I mean, it's sad enough the drop goal has gone, goes into hibernation for four years and then suddenly comes back at the World Cup with the stakes are high and pressure is on. That's Africa's Scotland game was great. The only thing I didn't like about it is it was just scored in sevens. So I like, you know, I like to see some light and shade in some different ways, but there are many ways to skin a cat and win a rugby game, but you're right, Grave, their teams are kicking to the corner rather than slapping in front penalty because everything tells them they're way better off. Things are, I think at the moment, it's probably far too more focused. There will hopefully be a re-calibration. Players coaching officials, but yeah, I agree with you. I don't think I don't want to see more strives being scored if they're too easy. It's just not very entertaining. It's not visually pleasing just to drive them all up plonks over. It's great if you're the supporter, but if you're a neutral or from all support on the other team, it's just dull, isn't it? Grave's right, if we carry on like this, that those percentages are only going to climb higher. And you've got to come up with some halfway house here. You can't have all, I mean, Glasgow experts will line out more. Every time Glasgow gets a five line out more, five meters out, I'm taking, I'm writing down five points here. Yeah. Take a try back to four points. Yeah. To be continued. Let's Nations pod next week. This is coming out late Wednesday. We will have it out by Tuesday next week. So, listeners, sorry, we're late in the week. It'll be sooner next week. Thanks to growth. Thanks to Tom. More pods to come, rubbing weekly and across the BBC Scotland pod, the other episode, and of course, gross scrum five pod building up, reviewing the autumn load to come over the coming days, rubbing weekly and we'll be on the whistle from Twickenham on Sunday as well. We'll see you then. Rugby Union weekly. For more info. Head to the BBC Sounds app. Welcome to the haunted library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human. 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