National Parks Are Being Loved to Death | SOP ep. 128 Dr. Brad Ryan & Grandma Joy

Welcome to "Speaking of Pets." I'm Dr. Alice Navati-Jeroman, a board certified veterinary dermatologist. And I'm not. I'm Janet Navati-King, the doctor's sister, podcast co-host, pet owner, rescuer and lover. We're here to provide pet owners with science-based information to help them be the best pet parents they can be. Here's today's episode. Create a just for you and your pets. Today's episode is sponsored by Dr. Tim's pet food. Learn more at DrTim's.com. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. I've been waiting for this episode for so long. As you all know, I'm a reader and guess what? My new favorite book. And we're lucky enough to have the author, Dr. Brad Ryan and Graham at Joy with us today. It is, I'm not going to fangush too much, Brad. It's a lovely book. It's touching. It's fun. I love Brad's writing style. I felt like I was there seeing some of the animals and thankfully not rolling down the dunes, but anyway. Welcome to you both. I'm so excited to see you. And I do have to say one thing. My producer, Joanne and I were at the book signing in Bath, Ohio on Saturday. You two have the most dedicated fans. We were all talking amongst ourselves. We were people that had never met each other before. And it was like a big collective love in. So who does to you for that? Yeah, we never worry about people getting along in line. It seems to, we seem to draw a very joyful crowd, which is, you know. And I think people that are all sort of gravitating to the story for the reasons that I intended, which was to create connection. And hope that we can find our way back to each other in this crazy divided world that we find ourselves in. Janet, I have to ask this question. Grandma Joy, when he called you after you hadn't talked to him in so many years, did you say who is this? Or did you know right away it was Brad? Well, he's only grandson of God, so I had to be open. So Brad and Grandma Joy, I have to share. I am a huge national parks fan. My family and I just did the grand circle trip. Last September, where you start in Vegas and you go to, I even kept my list. My hearing was on the list. So we did. Well, we didn't do the Hoover Day. We did Grand Canyon, Anelo, Porsche, Ben Canyonland, Arches, Capitol, Reef, Bryce, and Zion. Oh, boring. I know it's stunning, right? I was nervous because our longest route one day was three hours. I mean, it was like three hours. Oh, my God, we're going to have, you know, five people. We're going to be bored, but that natural splendor is so magnificent that you are just stunned around every single bend. Yeah, the whole state of Utah could be a national park. It's not everything in between is glorious. So you guys do the, at Zion, did you do the river, the walk with the boots? No, we, you know, most of the parks we, I mean, we did hike. We did kayak and whitewater raft and do a lot of things that you wouldn't expect. I tell people all the time, this is not driving this daisy. Right. You know, Grandma Joy was really, she wasn't just a passer of passenger. She was really out there experiencing it, experiencing everything that we could, but there were still limits because we started when she was 85. So I wish that we could do that. There are a lot of parks that I have unfinished business in and she wants me to go back and, and, and get that, you know, put a backpack on and head out into the, the grade unknown, but we didn't get to do that. We didn't do it at the Nero's because there was a storm coming in in an hour so there could be a flash flood and there was a fury. And the five of us looked at each other and went, you know, just didn't feel safe, but at least you look into your instinct because people are getting hurt and killed every week in our national parks because they, they don't prepare. They have, they let their ego get in the way and mother nature will have the ultimate say and how prepared you really are. They don't call you the rules. That's the problem. They don't, they're right there. And one thing I got the parks magazine today and it shows that all the flowers and this ballet, the whole thing is a mat. Oh, I'd love to see it. And they have a problem because the president has ordered all these signs taken out of the parks, you know, the shoes were that end in did so and all the different things. Yeah, there's a terrible time. I think I think the national park rangers person for most in the acknowledgments because they're just they've never been under more pressure and they've never been spread more thinly than they are right now. Yeah. And yeah, we all need to give them a big hug and a big smile when we go into our national parks. I say the same when you go to your vet office, but. Yeah, what were you telling me at the book signing in bath the other day about the funding. Remember, we were talking about the funding for national parks. Would you talk about that? Yeah, I mean, so people don't know about that everybody loves the most people once you get a taste of it, you become obsessed with visiting the national parks and and rightfully so that's where we. We these are our public lands and that's where we can all recharge and get back to what's really important in life and meet people and see the best in each other all of that. But ideally, you know, in the Instagram world where there's no there are no hidden gems anymore everything is known everything is popular. But there are still these parks that are are being loved to death because they get this national park Monica. I call them the capital in capital P national parks as opposed to the national monuments and the national lake shores and the national battlefields and the national sea shores and so forth. Because there are there are a lot of different national park units, but people become very hyper focused on the national parks. I'm not one to throw stones clearly we did the same thing. But let's take Indiana dunes, for example, that was a national lake shore for a very long time and then it became Indiana dunes national park a few years ago. And Indiana dunes national park received more visitors over that first summer after the name change than they typically get in the entire season the entire year. And did that come with a with an adequate increase in funding and staffing to support that increase in tourism it did not right. So they've seen a lot of damage occurring within the park to the fragile dune plants and it's just you know we really really had that problem everywhere though because now this and that that was before all the mass firings and the budget cuts and so forth. So now we really you know they're just they're just aren't enough Rangers and there are and they've never been more popular the park so we've got all these people coming in and and and it's it's pretty scary. You know I say love to death is I don't think people in 10 to go in and hurt the park, but it's just. It's just happened here for we were going on our trip and we sat down as a group there are five of us we said you know we're going to go because we want to support the Rangers and honestly there were no issues. The only thing was if you get to the park early a lot of times there's no one in the booth. You can just that's true right you know this is like a god send right yes I call it my geezer past grandma joy. She has one you know you have a whole car in and it's $80 for a lifetime yes I think you have to be 62 or 65 I can't remember but it's amazing. It's amazing gift from the country to have this but we did go to support the parks and people are pretty cool about respecting nature except if you haven't been to a big national park like the Grand Canyon. As grandma joy said there's no there are no restrictions like you read the rules when you come in but there's no fencing there's no you could walk right off of there if you wanted to people do all the time because they're looking at their selfie yeah. Screen and not where they're standing yeah and people walk up to the old we saw what happened to the gentleman with the bison in Yellowstone about a week and a half ago. There are also two women that were caught a few days later walking across the Grand Prismatic Spring which would be a heck of a way to die. 188 degree water anyway. I love grandma joy at the book signing was I didn't mean to over here but grandma joy was saying you need to leave it as you found it and that's so profound in just that sentence right grandma joy you need to leave the national park the way you found it don't leave a trace that you were there. Right and just like that lady we saw pull the flowers up and take a breath here with them and insert them in a drive. Oh she had no business doing it if you want to picture with flower stoop down where they are. Exactly. No you're right exactly and and Brad which you're saying about you know the gentleman that was thrown by the bison. Why do people always have to want to go up to touch an animal that there's no respect there. And then they teach the kids can I pet it. No this is a wild animal. years ago when I was an intern at the Cincinnati Zoo, I remember I was walking around at lunch and I know we're talking about national parks and I'll get back to that, but yeah, the wager at this guy had his three-year-old dangling by her legs into the pit where the bongo antelope was, the bongo, you know, you've seen their horns. And I just and I lost faith in parents back then. And then I saw a celebrity with their toddler on their shoulders running towards a black bear and case. Listen, I've seen it all, but but if you see bad behavior, I hope that you you call it out. We've had to do that. And just to get off the track, but still on the veterinary track, I love Brad as a vet when I call it out and I get told it's none of your business. And guess what I say? But it is my business. Corn is good. You're bark. That's right. I mean, it's people are are just not like you said, they're just not respectful, but that really the joy should come from being a passive observer and sitting back and watching how these animals behave without our presence, right, without us causing stress for them. And that's what that's what it is that people don't even I wish that the rules were more strict. I feel like I think people need to be people need to be mindful of the fact that this really does have physiological a physiological stress response for these animals and and if they and if something goes wrong and we're injured, it's usually the animal that gets euthanized. Right. And so I think I think we absolutely have to call out improper behavior around wildlife, especially. Mm hmm. Yeah, they need more agents to watch over the animals instead of yeah, defying them and volunteer for that. Yeah. Well, there are and I shall say that we we don't champion our volunteers enough either. A lot of especially now. A lot of wonderful people that come out in communities that neighbor these parks and they they're just they're there to just to help, especially during this current arrow. So, you know, Brad, I have to tell you since I retired and you know, we spent six months in Venice, Florida. I've met so many retirees from various professions. They volunteer at different places every day. I'm like, wow, this is like a full-time job you're doing. I mean, I volunteer at animal rescue, but I mean, they volunteer in the theater at the park. And so it's it's refreshing because it's something they're passionate about. Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of them have waited their whole lives. Yes, they'd be able to do that. And so at that point, it's not about money and benefits anymore. It's about how do I how am I showing up for my life every day? Do I do I feel good about it? It's what's in here. Yeah. Yeah. And given my reason to get out of bed in the morning. That's right. You know, you're right. Grammar joy. You are right. And and I have to tell you is he is Brad hard to keep up with? And I also want to know, did you sleep in a tent every night or did he treat you to a hotel sometimes? The first trip we went on lives in the and the stand every night. I know when I read that about taking that down, help with that. That was the saving grace of going viral. Is that what we went from 29 parks and a tent to a higher sponsorship? Yeah. Yeah. Like someone's got to stop this guy. You've got to get this 90-year-old woman in a bed. Were they reporting you to AARP? You're having charges brought against you. Look at I feed her. I swear. When it comes to feeding our pets, we believe in results you can see over hype. 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Tell us, tell our listeners your story in a nutshell. How this all started? Oh my God. This is the nutshell. Let me tell you. Well, yeah, I mean, and it was so hard because when, like I said, when the story went viral in 2019, we were halfway through this this personal journey. And I, you know, I don't even, I, in the media would, you know, they wanted me to tell them this synopsis and five minutes and it was really hard to do because there were, there were many different layers to it. And I say you can start when I'm in my fourth year of vet school at Ohio state, or you can start when I was a little boy. And I think it's easier to just start when I was a little boy and just say that, you know, we, we, you're lucky and Southeast Ohio that we had the, the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains and we had hills to climb and streams that were very pristine at the time that we could, uh, we could get in our, take our shoes off, get in, and, and she would help me look for, for crawdads and I had a little goldfish net and I would catch minnows sometimes. Yeah, for gold, goldfish nets. Yeah. And I had a little cool can ask. And I had, I would just collect my menagerie. And I just was full of wonder from that, that three, four years of age. I remember that. And I, I say that that was certainly those were seeds that were planted early on that, um, that, that I took throughout my entire life. I mean, that's, I worked at the wilds. I couldn't wait to work there. I couldn't wait to be, to be, to be old enough to drive out there and, and work as a tour guide. And, and then I was scooping Rhino poo in the barn and on and on we go. And then that, that led to the Cincinnati Zoo, that led to the Cheetah Conservation Fund, that led to the University of Pretoria and South Africa, all from this little town in, in southeast Ohio. But she started it. And then we had this really, I think like most people, this, this really complex family, um, dynamic that was happening over the years, unspoken generational trauma. Her youngest son was addicted to drugs. And that caused a lot of friction in the family and a lot of safety issues that, um, just, it created a wedge between my father and, and my grandparents. And I just saw a lot of fighting. And there was, and then there were periods of a strangement that happened along the way. And then after I got it, when I got into undergraduate school, my parents got divorced. And it was a very acrimonious divorce. And there was a big fight that happened. And I cut off the paternal side of my family, including, uh, grandma joy. And that, that lasted almost a decade. And so I had this really fortunate, uh, beautiful experience of being able to hike in the Appalachian Mountains for six months. I, I threw hiked from Georgia to Maine in 2009. And that was a time period when I was, perhaps 27 years old, going on 28, very lost, still, very much, um, fixated on the, the past in the demons, the, the bullies and my father and all that. And I had also, I wanted to be a veterinarian more than anything. And I couldn't pass physics. And I took it twice. And I had to drop out both times after a couple, um, exams just didn't go my way. And I just sobbed and, but I'd given, I'd given it up. And luckily I was in the, uh, the mountains for six months. And I saw myself in a new white. I saw my potential differently. And I was like, if I can do this, I can, I can, I'll take it at a community college. I'll, I'll get through this. I'm going to, I'm going to go, I'm going to go for it. But I also thought a lot about, you know, because I would can't buy these streams. And it would just take me back to those early days. And, and I was like, I think nobody in my family has ever said I forgive you. Nobody in my family has ever taken the high road. And I think that I need to try this. I need to, I need to try to reach out to her and see what happens. And so we, I did. And we went back to Blue Rock State Park, the same park that she took me as a little boy. And it was a simple conversation about what it was like hiking in the, in the woods for six months. And she told me that she regretted that she never got to see a mountain in her life. And that, I think, it might have broken a lot of people's hearts, but I'm not sure how many people actually would have done something about it. And I thought I'll take her on one camping trip. I'll take her on what we'll go, we'll go down to the Smokies and we'll see the mountains. But I got it a grad school, a second graduate program in veterinary public health. And then, and then right into my DVM program. So it was five years later that, that I finally took that road trip with her, but not to go crossover, what those years in that school were like for me, because academic success was always my sense of like that's where I got my sense of self-worth. I wasn't athletic really, I know I had from Georgia to Maine, but I wasn't a classic athlete in that sense and I wasn't artistic or so I didn't think. I was a great writer, but I didn't, I didn't, I'd let that behind. And so I just lost myself. I don't know how else to say it. I was not performing to my typical standards and I underestimated how important that was to my sense of self-worth and self-esteem and I was very, very depressed and very suicidal for years. And I mean it was my daily prayer to have enough strength to take my own life. And during my four-year of vet school things were starting to get better. I was doing my clinical rotations at zoos and wildlife rehab centers and so forth. And then in the fall I showed up for my radiology rotation and a second-year veterinary student named David Hilton committed suicide at our campus. And that was my moment of recognition. It was, you know, I looked, I just went to the bathroom and I looked in the mirror and I after looking at his smiling face on his Facebook profile and I just realized that there is a very thin line that exists between wishing that for yourself, wishing that you could do that and maybe the right circumstances come together or the wrong circumstances come together that actually tip the scale in that direction that makes makes you do it. I don't and it's all the data on suicide shows that that it's it's typically a very spontaneous decision. There's not a lot of time that happened. I'm gonna do it and actually executing on that on that thought. And so I just thought to myself this is this is it Brad like you have to decide like are you gonna take control of your life again and remember that that this is not the be all end all of life. This is you're working towards a career. This is but but there's you live in woods for six months. You know you love life. You know that you you feel that you can feel profound joy and and so I just decided that I'm gonna call her I'm gonna see if she wants to go on a road trip this weekend. Let's get that first met. She's 85 now. We don't have all the time in the world to keep playing Russian roulette with another day and another day. So let's let's see if she'll go and I just it's it's funny. I joke every night that I do these author events that because I'm usually in bookstores and I'm like find the self-help book that tells me to take an eighty five-year-old woman camping to pull myself out of a mental health crisis. You know it seems so served on this. Well here it is I know now we have it but that's what I that's what I thought I needed to do in that moment was to be with somebody who knew me from the very beginning because I was I think I was subconsciously trying to get as far away from that teaching hospital as I could physically but also in a temporal sense. I wanted to be I wanted to recapture the magic of my youth and the innocence of my youth and the care free days of my youth and so that's how that's how it started and clearly I got carried away. Well yeah to say I'm jealous because my parents were really old when they had me 45 and 48 I was I was a mistake on the lake. Okay. Gligiri and I never hand great parents. Yeah. No I didn't either and Janet and I are six years apart. Wow. So grandma Joy you need to adopt us because we don't have it. We never had a grandma. Our parents were so old that when Janet was somewhere with my dad they'd say you and your grandpa can come in you know. So weeks and I would say no this is my lover. It was the bald eighty-year-old dude you know and you would kind of go oh and I was like because I was sick of it and soon he was my grandfather and that's why Janet and I talked very loud because we were always around old people older people that couldn't hear. Yeah people will be like sometimes I feel badly because people turn around and like and I'm like oh my gosh I'm talking loud again but we my parents friends were all elderly so like I hung out with all people. I was old soul Janet you and I. We really are and we had the opportunity to be with our elders and then you know our age and younger people I felt really blessed and we had that but I never knew what a grandparent relationship was like so this is so huge and lucky. Yeah I think so too and I I've heard that from a lot of people so I and I'm and my I lost both of my grandfathers the same week in 1994 my paternal maternal grandfather died the same week in 94 and yet both of my grandmothers are still alive. I have an 89-year-old grandmother and I have a 96-year-old grandmother and for the people that come up to me and the lion and say that exact thing I always encourage them to really consider because I there's so much magic to find in an intergenerational friendship so much wisdom and humor and perspective that's what I think I that's what I needed more than anything at that time in my life in that moment of darkness I just need a perspective and some and some hope and she had lived through a lot of of hard stuff. Yeah and I love the humor part because yeah beginning with Janet which Janet I had him sign a book for you when you come in September I have it for you. Yeah but my favorite I actually laughed out loud breath the first night you slept in the tent he couldn't sleep because he was worried she was going to swallow her teeth because they didn't bring the effort and cut not not to not to get too personal grandma joy. It's too late. Okay those are the things that Janet and I worried about with our parents and and you know like when when my mom was living locally here because where she lived the crime wasn't that good so my husband and I bought a little house close to my office here which is three miles away and we'd go and I knock on the door and she never locked the door and I and I'd make my husband I say oh my gosh go in and see because she was sleeping so soundly I was worried she had passed her way and I'd say I say to my go in there and he's like you go in there it's your mother so anyway you have to have humor in this you just go in wait I used to go in a mom's house and be like is there just going up and I know say thing with daddy when he was in the hospital but that's for any of us yeah yeah she's she stopped snoring on that first night of camping and I was like oh no nice and then I jabbed her between the sores and she screamed you saw your grandma I thought you were dead go continue just go yeah wait as the three suits you just say wake up and go to sleep yeah I'm going to ask the dreaded question do you have a favorite park that's so hard I'm sure everyone's asked them that it's the most common question that we get and sometimes we just make up a different park and sometimes we have our canned answer and we say catmire because it was so glorious to see 33 brown bears during the salmon run so I mean they were all there yeah yeah we saw 33 at once and so and it was just such a Alaska in general it was just so magical it's hard to it's you know to say this yeah it was hot there grandma was saying it was like 80 degrees right grandma Joy and Alaska was hot in the arctic circle yeah very one with all those winter clothes here it's your thing booze and we're ready and it was sandy to boot oh yeah they're sand dunes in the arctic circle and co-buck Valley National Park one of the least visited national parks but the the grandma Joy usually gives the answer that was I think is the right answer which is that how do you really how do you how do you say glaciers better than Zion when they're so radically different and both so spectacular and I mean the grandeur there is an and big bend is another one very few people go to big bend which oh like beautiful yeah has all the grandeur glow stone not so hard to find a parking space which is nice but yeah and then Acadia and Hawaii volcanoes and I mean they're just so different like I think we just have to appreciate where we are while we're there for work there even if it's Kyhoga Valley National Park which gets a lot of crap because it you know I'm sorry we don't have mountains in Ohio but you know everything is like I you can't find what's at Kyhoga Valley National Park out west either so you know why I don't I don't I don't really get the comparison game well I have to say one or two sons who are 31 and 33 that was a year ago September and we went to the Grand Canyon I had been once in the winter and my husband had been and to see them at the rim and they were star struck I mean you were watching them watch the yeah it was a moment I mean both my husband and I like well-dop and we looked at each other like yeah well this this really it really at both of them were just so in awe and it was it was really cool I actually met a guy a couple weekends ago and we're talking you said you know what's the most breathtaking place that's just taking it and then he looked at me goes to Grand Canyon I go oh my god me too he actually stayed at Phantom Ridge wow oh my god they serve beef stew all you can eat that's the only thing you can eat there he said I was almost sick to my stomach because I ate so much I was gonna ask you about the food what was the food unique to where to the places you visited or was it all fast food we tried not to eat basket we had a good so we would do I mean but there were like I said this was I mean we were a barrier tight budget because we did that we can camping trip in the smokies and then the next trip that happened a year and a half later was a 28-day camping trip at the US that lasted that we had yeah we hit 21 national parks in 28 days and so they're you know and I was and I actually put a I did a go fund me yeah if I could get some gas money to help make this right right right and that was but it was ramen noodles with a little the gas stove at the you took a lot of your own food is what you think yeah we did but we've been a lot of ramen noodles a lot of man oranges a lot of gas station fried chicken things like that it wasn't it wasn't luxurious yeah we never went hungry we didn't go hungry and we saw a lot of beautiful stuff and I think you know because we had that archive like we were really serious about this mission and we were out we were doing the best we could in a tent and one of my one of my one of my vet school classmates uh Dr Adam Jason who works up in Cleveland he um he gave us his tent and we just we just had a lot of love a lot of people that were supporting us in this quest to try to go to as many national parks as we could and so by the time the story went viral in 2019 there was this beautiful archive of photos on Instagram of us and glacier and Zion and Joshua tree and uh on and on we go and I and I just and we had yeah we we went to the Everglades we went to Cuyahoga Valley National Park was actually our 23rd Park I think we just did a great trip up there and back but but I was committed to it you know and we were trying to just see how much juice we could squeeze out of an orange starting at age 85 right right did you keep a journal from the very beginning or when you started traveling you thought hey I should write this down where and when we've been at places I wish that I had journal I journaled every day on the AT and it's so beautiful yeah 99% of it you don't remember and so you're so glad that you wrote it down and I wish that I had but I was driving the whole time when you were putting in really long days and yeah on you get your tent site and yeah anyway didn't happen but she did keep a journal oh good and I recorded a lot of video took a lot of photos and then as time went on I learned if she's gonna tell a story you better make sure you're recording it yeah so I that that's what makes the dialogue so rich and the book is because it really was what she said the most of the time and so I had a lot of great sources to pull from and I also you only serve a fraction of it in the book I also love that a you wrote the book yourself you wrote it you know no ghost writer absolutely not and I love that because it's so love it's lovely written and I'm sure that's incorrect English but it's lovely written and it also you know you really exposed so much of yourself and I appreciated that but yet I was almost I almost felt like I was invading true you know but yet I appreciated that you did that because there were some chapters that I was teary-eyed at the end of the chapters and then you would tell a cute story about Grandma Joy and the teeth and you know then I'd be laughing so it's very endearing thanks yeah I mean the darkest chapter comes right after we were in six flags writing roller coasters you know so there it's it's like a it's just what life is right it's probably all the different motions and all the different all the different eras of life you know we we the darkness bleeds into the light most of the time and and and it's can we let the light overpower that darkness can we can we hold our grief and our anguish and our regret in one hand and then make all this space in our lives for joy and presence and humor and let that tip of scale and not feel guilty about it and reconnecting and reconnecting yes yeah and and so the the I'm sure the parts that you're you're talking about where you felt maybe a little boy or a stick in my psyche that was all those were the hardest things to write and yet I knew that that these were the things that had been weighing me down my whole life and that they were shame based and I've read enough Bernad Brown books to know that shame dies in the light and so yeah I collapsed on my keyboard after I wrote it all and I and I I wrote everything chronologically up until the scene in the desert where we we talk about our our past histories with abusers and then I went straight in from that part into part three which you know is a the journey that we did not expect to take after I got some news about my father and so that I was like I can't I can't write about what are happening in Alaska and I'll I can't do it right now I was already in this really because I don't know how to explain it other than you have to you have to embody that that era of your life and body that version of yourself at that point in time to be able to write it emotionally and viscerally and and to make it really land the way it needs to land and so once I was in once once I already felt like I was like my my guts were ripped out it's like we just had we just have to stay here and ride this out till it's all written down and then you have to climb out yeah which is what you did I felt a vast amount of relief when it was all written because I held healed by and I and although I do say healing is a journey not a destination yeah okay because I'm always gonna be grappling with some memory of my past but no I I felt that that what the writing of that book those parts of my life processing it in that way really has allowed me to set set myself free because I was on a hamster wheel I'm really looking to pass over and over again re-traumatizing myself over and over and over again I think a lot people do that and now I'm so happy it's in a book that I can lay down on the table and I can walk out the door and go have you know the make the joyful experiences in my life that I want to make and and just know that I'm not defined by the worst things that happened to me and the handful of cruel people that I encountered along the way it affected me for a long time but we've we've overcome a lot and that goes for the two of you and the other thing if you listen today to this when it's over the one word here that I keep hearing is joy whether it's grandma joy or joyfulness I mean it's it's just rampant and I think that's is there a nicer word than that I don't think so no and it's different than it's distinct from happiness yes because when I think of joy I think of I think of spontaneity too yeah yeah it's joy is deeper than happiness it is there's a freedom to it there's a a a oneness I think to the life force whatever you want to call it it's but it's it's living life I think with an appreciation for the miracle of it all and and and whether that's looking up at the stars or or or just like with her it's appreciating the pattern on a bug shell or how many different colors of likener on that fallen tree that I was just speeding by on my way to the summit for the last 10 years and then I had to walk at her pace and I realized it wasn't so bad after all you know it's so but all these people are an outside magazine because they're they're scaling these massive mountains and the Himalayas and so forth and and yet they they give us they give us some attention too and I think that's wonderful because we all are getting older and I think every single person wants to believe that they can crush it in their 90s if if if if she can do it then I can manifest that for myself hopefully I love to feel all that stuff is real but but whatever it is I mean just just to get out of the house and keep connecting keep living keep putting dates on the calendar keep making memory it keeps you going and grab a joy I I really want to know how much crocheting are you doing if it if any I put it away here's something we love about Dr. Tim's pet food every formula starts with a question does this actually help the animal not just look good on a shelf Dr. Tim has spent decades as a working vet and that experience shows up across the 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(upbeat music) - But I have a question for Grandma Joy. What advice do you have for older people who, maybe they want to adopt a pet, or maybe they want to go on an adventure? - What is your advice? - Adopt a grandson. - Adopt a grandson. - Adopt us. - Your advice to older generations for that when they start to sad, I might be too old for that. - Yeah, don't get up. That's for darn sure. Don't ever say that. And when your family says you're too old to do that, telling them to go jamming a river. (laughing) You have to do that, that's so darn sure. You know, there's more to life than that one little corner where you are. And you need to have the courage to jump and try something different. Even if it doesn't work out, try it again. You'll never know, just sit there and not try and whether you can do it or not. Then you gotta think positive and say, "Okay, I'm gonna give it a whirl." And we'll see if it works. - You know, a long time ago, I worked for a spree, and the woman who ran a spree said, "It's an attitude not an age." Yeah, it's all about attitude, absolutely. - And you choose that every day, you get out of bed. - Look up, when this is over and for the people who are listening, by the time this airs, maybe he'll already be finished, but there's a 91-year-old man who's about to finish an Appalachian Trail through Hague. - Yes! - And he had the record at 82, I think. - Yes. - Some 83-year-old beat him. And so he waited eight years to say, "I'm gonna make third nobody." - And do it. - So he set off, and he's almost finished. And he's just, and he walks into a hostile, and I used to be limping, when I would walk into a hostile, at the end of more 18-mile hiking day, I couldn't even get across the room without hobbling. And this guy's just dancing, and I just, love and life, and I just think, yes. It's all, we let that get in our heads too much, but it's a slightly different help. - No, it doesn't, you're wrong. - And yet we have complete control over. I mean, we could choose to never even look at the calendar and count the days, and just let life happen, and just ride the roller coaster, ride the waves as they come. And yes, if you have to slow down, that's fine, but I will say, I think most people would assume that at age 85, when we started this journey, that I got her right at the very peak. She was never gonna get healthier than that. She was never gonna get more coordinated, her balance was never gonna be better, but it was the opposite when she actually was out there hiking, and thinking about where to put her feet, and how to balance herself as she stepped over this rock, and make sure that if it's a little bit slippery, that I hold onto something, as she was using all these different parts of her brain, and moving in a new way, her balance improved, her coordination improved, and she smiled more, and her cardiovascular strength improved, and then she's hiking more, and doing even longer trails, and meeting wonderful people from around the world, at an age when if people were lucky enough to live to be 96, in most cases, they've outlived their entire social group, and now she has friends from teenagers all the way up to her age, and-- - Four years old, yeah. - We, Brad, I don't remember what scientists said this, but I always remember, energy breeds energy. - Yeah? - It does, and Grandma Joy, I bet you're in the best shape you've ever been in, and who cares about the chronological age? - Yeah. - Right, you know, I think you'd say it over or over age, you're just a number. - Yeah, right, and don't concentrate on that part. - And can I tell you something else? You have great hair. - You really do. - They were like, I lost a lot. - No, look out, they're hair is, and Brad, don't you get-- Termini, if you get balled or not, isn't it from the mother side of the family or something? - I don't remember. - Yeah, which is why I'm not. (laughing) - I don't read enough of that one. - My voice are, and they'll never forgive me, 'cause it's all-- - It's a good idea. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, great balled or fun. - Led to war on good. I hope so. - And he had a weird hair, and he had his curl, come down there, and it was there when he bathed away. - Well, if we can do that. - He talked about society, and when they see the gray hair, I'm telling you, I'm immediately dismissed, and I'm only 66. - I believe I am. - And I'll be like, wait a minute, I got something to say. It does get to you when you get there. - No, Brad, you're right, because even since I've been retired now nine years as a veterinary dermatologist, and I used to be speaking and lecturing and consulting stuff. Once you are not in the mainstream, you know nothing. You see what I'm saying? And it's sad, 'cause you have to make your own, that's one of the reasons Janet and I started the podcast, 'cause after I retired, I would have clients calling me, saying, hey, I read about doing this. I'm like, where did you read that? I said to Janet, we have got to get evidence-based information out to these people, 'cause there's so many myths and misinformation that could harm pets that's on the internet. And you know, Brad, what I'm talking about. - We suffer in so many ways when we don't understand that there is value in every generation. - Yes. - I mean, they could go the other extreme as well, and we need everyone. We need all the more diverse perspectives that's allowed, the more likely it is that we're gonna end up with the optimal solution, I think. We need the young hines combined with the older minds. And I meant, I would be some of the dermatology meetings sitting with a colleague of mine of my same age, and someone across the table, a new grad, would be saying, oh, this is a great idea. And I whispered to my friend, I said, remember, we did that 10 years ago and it didn't work. So let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's talk together and combine our knowledge. - Man, yes. And my call to action in that is, I think that's in the book, in my own way, but it's broadly applicable. You can look, you can say, this idea of intergenerational connection, unlocking the power of that. We can apply that in a lot of different ways. And I just think that we know that what we're doing is not working and now we've got a lot of, 'cause you just have to take it back to basic, in my opinion, just basic anthropology. For the vast majority of our evolution as a species, we've been seeded in the dirt, in nature, and we had communities where we survived because of intergenerational society, social units and family units. And I talk about it in, it's a chapter called, "The Rooms We Left Behind," which is when we're in Mace Air Day National Park, which is a very unique U.S. National Park that shows the cave dwellers that lived in that region of Colorado, the Pueblins. And I just felt this energy of the ghosts of these grandparents and grandchildren laughing down in the caves under those overhangs while the parents were obviously out getting the food. - Yeah. - And what stories were being shared and obviously stories that actually, sometimes meant life or death for those family units. So yeah, I mean, we just lost our way. The fact that we accept generational segregation as a social norm that's acceptable in this country is so wrong and we should connect the dots between that reality that we're facing that's relatively new for out to the species versus, and then think about the litany of mental health problems that people have and on and on we go. And maybe if we got back to something that our DNA recognizes familiar and safe. - Yep. - And cup filling. - Yeah. - Maybe we would do better. And so I hope that people get that. And I think it just, I'm not saying this book has the power to change, even if it sells as many copies as it pray love which would be a miracle. I don't know that it would have the ability to really transform society. But I hope that on an individual level that when people read, you know what? - Yeah. - 60% of nursing home residents don't get a single visitor. - Right. - Yeah. - I can go make a new friend. - Yeah. - Absolutely. And you know what, they hunger for that. You know, you bring a therapy dog in. - Sure. - And it's the hit of their day. - I look at it as something almost spiritual. I really do. Grandma Joy, how proud are you of him? - Oh. I got big. Yeah. (laughing) - You know what, you know. I got one of a kind. - Oh. - How do you tell him that? - And everybody loves him when he tells to him. They tell him things they wouldn't tell anybody else. And he listens politely. And if he has something serious to tell them. He tells them in that way and they walk away Feeling better. I never knew. I saw that at the book signings. They do. It's he's so and not to fan gosh, okay, Brad He does this every show, Brad. No, I don't and I'm telling you something. It's so one-on-one with you both It's it really is I have to encourage people if look up their their book tour because it's a love experience and the people that are there to see them. It's like a big love fest. I'm not kidding you. It's important to me That people I know what it's like to feel invisible. There's no There's no worst feeling and I had yeah, I've had it happen many times in my life Where even if even in vet school right where I was part of this major like a hundred two students It was a huge class, but people weren't it wasn't in the culture to be vulnerable It wasn't in the culture to say I'm feeling a little unsure about myself to do this procedure or My friend that basic piece of information. I keep struggling with this basic. It's concept that everybody else seems to have down Like to show that there's so much shame and just being human Involverment and I think that's changing thankfully, but it's it's there's still a lot of people struggle with that And I also know what it was like to be invisible when I was free liking the ATA We got up in in notes out here like a rock star if you're a through hiker when you get up to Kent Connecticut You're a dirty smelly bomb Don't get in the right yet. Yeah, don't come to our restaurant You know, and I remember the people walking by and just and I already had a I had already gone through grad school at that point I was just planning the next stage of my life and wanted to have an adventure But they were it was just like I was invisible and to and so you know that that changed the way I interact with homeless people And when I walk out I don't give them money necessarily, but I say hello Yes, just so that you know, you don't we can't dehumanize people like that or I don't I can't do it anymore And so yeah when people come if people drove out to meet us and and buy a book and sign it I want to know who you are and I want to know a little bit of your story without holding up the line too much If there is a line, but if there's not, I'll talk all day, you know, because that's my logical book As I was longing for connection So grim a joy. What is one word that describes your adventure together? Oh boy. Oh You can give a few if you can't think of one Well, if you could sum up our adventure and a word What word would come to your mind? Very enlightening Oh, that's a good one. That's a good one. You don't know all these people out there that keep things to their cell But you don't know what a pleasant smile and a handshake can do to make them feel better So you don't have to do a lot Sometimes I Somebody had the beautiful dress on her Her like beautiful. I tell him I say you have the most beautiful dress on Oh, thank you, she said Well, I probably the only one to talk to her maybe that day But she made her feel better about herself So think how good that makes you feel when someone gives you a compliment. Oh, I love. I love your shirt today You know, I really and you didn't even think think about it when you put it on that morning You're like wow That's so nice that someone A would notice and B compliment me. Yeah, yeah, and it's probably gotten worse Or I know it's gotten worse because most people are just ahead and screen. Oh, yeah, so yeah, I think once again we need I I feel it. I think maybe it's this book tour and Um, maybe it's just having spent so much time in the national parks where We don't have enough bars on our phone to be on our phones But I do think that people are realizing that the status quo is not working Um, where we're not we're not um, we're not living our lives In a way that is in alignment with what our our spirit really wants And it's it is basic stuff. It is um, and yes, we've got to make we got to pay the bills and we've got to do all those things But we we have to create a space in our lives for joy and it may not be it may not be 63 US national parks. It might be um You know volunteering. It might be it might be I never got to Go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, but a lot of people have these unrealized Dreams that haven't come to fruition yet and it's never it's never too late And I think especially for somebody of a of the younger generation Uh, who has maybe the ability to bring somebody along for the ride I don't know. It's it's I don't know if they really think about how um How much life um How much how much joy and and fulfillment that it brings to your life when you do that The two loneliest groups Statistically speaking, but that murthy our former US surgeon general did a whole surgeon generals record on The epidemic of loneliness and social isolation in America and the two loneliest groups are the elderly and People in their 20s. We have particularly men. Yep And and you got a wonder, you know You know, and these are people that are liking Facebook post all day long and yeah, but it's not a proxy for connection It's just not no, it's not Wow, and and I think to communication, you know, if If you want to go somewhere fine, but but speak to someone talk to someone. How are you today or what did you do today? You know, I walk in Klee Lake every morning and I know these people's first names that I've been seeing for 40 years I don't know their last names I don't know what they do, but we all kind of watch out for one another. Hey, how are you today? Have a good weekend It's just kind of boost your spirit the little moments Yeah, but it yeah, but it it has a big impact Yeah, because it's because most of us are in our own inner world and and we we're probably hyper focusing on the do list and all these stressors and then someone just brings you out of your trance and says something to you And then you're like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, I don't also think it has to do with our Midwest upbringing I do I think people in the Midwest watch more friendly. I've lived on board. We are I agree with you And when I lived in Manhattan I lived in New York in the Adenes and people would skate or make good men. You're not from here. Are you? I don't I felt that At different stages of my life where I've been very gregarious with somebody at the airport or whatever and yeah And somebody that I'm with who's not from I've I went to grad school with a woman from Kansas. Yeah Uh, and when I lived in South Africa, we were the only two Americans so we hung out But we were very different people in that way And you just be like she just wanted to crawl into a rock and I'm just like well why wouldn't I Get to know this person and and she just couldn't even make eye contact. Yeah, it's interesting But I don't think that you know that that's a part of our culture. I think we should try to preserve right? Yeah, I agree because like we were talking about but that that can really We don't know what someone else is going through and and if you annoy somebody so be it but if it actually gives somebody a little bit of um There's a little bit of it won't see their heart then it goes a long way. Yeah Yes, I can remember going with my mom out and she spoke to somebody in the parking lot in a elevator or whatever And I find myself doing that I thought oh I'm taking that from my mom. I know it's interesting that Yeah, I'm trying to just now make somebody day they're filled down and up Well, I guess maybe somebody sees me after all. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're right Well Just because I feel guilty because we haven't we haven't talked too much about veterinary stuff Oh, what do you think about um How do we like what should we do about this this intergenerational divide Well, there's obviously we need we need the wisdom of our Um, um, you retired doctors, right? We need a lot of mentorship And we need a lot of expelling the fear in young graduates that I'm here's an eye ulcer I'm afraid of what I might do wrong. Well, maybe you're gonna do right, you know and and I just think I think the book learning is great But I think the mentorship I think you really start to learn the day you started the first day in practice Absolutely and and just we have to give a shout out Brad and I both have to give a shout out to Sarah Slanka yeah one of our favorite people and also restymore who we both know as well So yeah without embarrassing them too much I think a lot of the younger generation isn't going into medicine in general whether it's human or veterinary Because if you think about it, you know become a doctor it's eight years and we are in such a fast society think of scrolling And when you tell a young person you know that's eight years they sort of go That's a lot to bite off that that instantaneous satisfaction Doesn't get you the eight years, you know, I agree I think but we have we have some big challenges, but some big opportunities and we need to make it cool We really do. I mean we should look we should look at um We should look at that uh as a as an untapple for um mental health resilience with obviously skill building, Sunday, go. reasoning, um, all of it. I mean, we, we, we just need it. And then I think, yeah, inevitably when we, when we do that enough, then we also find that the younger generations are bringing something to the table too that we wish that we would have known about 30 years ago too. So it's, it's bi-directional. It's always bi-directional. And, but we need to have the right mindset about it. And like, like you said, it could be like, what are these young people know? What are these, you know, what are these old school? That's no, I've seen it. you. you. you. you. you.