Nate Berkus on Found Objects and Archiving Memories

[Music] Pushkin. Some people are naturally at home in the world. Interior designer Nick Berkus is one of them. With a combination of impeccable Midwestern manners, telegenic looks and a real talent for design, he rose to fame in 2002 when Oprah anointed him as her design expert and he quickly became a fixture of living rooms across America. In 2004 Nate and his partner Fernando found themselves caught in the tsunami in Sri Lanka and Fernando lost his life. The grief that followed might cause others to retreat from the world. Instead Nate took away a deep sense of empathy from that experience, one that changed his approach to people and places in a deeply sincere way. On his travels Nate collects objects and mementos with a rare intention, constantly adding to a living archive that follows him through. His homes, projects and family life. In this chat we connect about the maid by hand in Mexico's Marida, Palmer's peerless antique fare, while he won't take his children to Venice just yet, and how we can all find a way to travel through grief. Here's my conversation with Nate Berkus. [Music] Nate, welcome. Thank you. Super nice to have you. Thank you. I wanted to ask you, I know you've had a book that came out recently called Foundations. What's the place that you think probably was your aesthetic foundation? That you first traveled through that had the biggest impact? Growing up in the Midwest in a suburb of Minneapolis, we traveled as a family, we traveled starting at a very young age, but it actually wasn't travel for me. It was the sort of allure of a multi-dealer antique small or an auction. My mom was an interior designer and I remember being so curious about the decorative arts and obviously she was collecting and buying for clients and projects and things like that, but objects really tell a story. They represent often when they've made it this far from their origin. They represent the best of craft or the best of design or the most important wave of interest at a certain time or period in a culture. My eyes were actually opened aesthetically more, not from seeing things when I was young, but seeing things. Not places, but things. Is there an object that has stayed through all of your houses? There's several. Actually, Jeremiah thinks that he calls me like a fancy hoarder, but I like when my eye travels around one of our spaces to land on things and have that space tell the story of us and of me and of our children. And I've always felt that the best interiors really do represent the people that live in them, but also represent not just who they are currently, but who they've been, what they've loved, what they've lost, what they've seen, and probably equally as important who they aspire to be. I mean, that's why we do it in front of my book place with all of my own. All of my knickknacks and things. And there's the lion right there that travels with me through all of my houses. Not that there's been that many, but that one's from Tamil Nadu in India and I can't let go of him. Yeah, you shouldn't. No, I'm sure. I listened to something that you had done several years ago, and it was about that you went to Paris when you were 17. Yeah. And the thing that you were most interested in was aside from boys, history. Yeah. So I was like, curious what that means exactly or what that meant for you when you were there. I think what it meant was that at 17 I was old enough to have this awareness of modern life happening in an ancient place. And in American interior design, I've always been really interested in things like architectural salvage and old door knobs and salvaged fireplaces and old stone floors that have been reclaimed and all of these materials. But that was 20 years later. I think at the time I was just so taken by the age of the place. And you know, there's all these great design sort of concepts that happened. Andre Putman doing these apartments and these housemanian apartments and things like that. And the deeply, deeply deco movement against these sort of wedding cake moldings and the contrast of all of that. And I think that that was really formative for me. I was an intern at a costume jewelry designer. Her name is Dominique Guarantees. I lived with a family in the 16th arrondissement in this grand old apartment, which wasn't particularly well furnished, but you know, it didn't matter. There was a houseman style. Like a houseman style. Yeah, houseman style, like with the big kitchen and the enormous stove and then this sort of rickety table that the housekeeper would change the linen on it, you know, every two days. And it didn't match the napkins and whatever. And that was really wonderful. Like I just, it was, it was this option that I discovered of being able to live with history in such a tangible way. And that never left me. Is there other places that you were turned to when you go to Paris? Yeah, actually, I'll tell you a funny story. So when I lived in Paris and I was in Stagiaire on intern, there was this Vietnamese restaurant in the bottom of the office building. And for five francs, you could get this, like, bifallone on a baguette or these like tiny egg rolls that they call them. And I ate that for lunch every day. I was like, this is my favorite restaurant. It's amazing. So fast forward 10 years later, I back in the States. I've graduated from college. I've started my company and I brought someone with me. And I was like, we have to go back to this Vietnamese restaurant and they, you know, it's so great. And I have such great memories. And I ate it every day and I can taste it. I'm so excited. And we walked down the street and I was like, I don't remember this being like so dodgy. I was like, wait a minute. Like this, this cannot possibly be the restaurant. Like, I remember the sandwiches were like all in the window. And like, I was like, this cannot be it, right? With the filthy glass and like the tile floors that looked like they hadn't been cleaned since my bar mitzvah. And I was like, this is really gross. And my friend was like, I am not eating here. Like, you're welcome to eat here. But like, there is no way. So I mean, you know, things change obviously as we change. But I have my favorite Hansen Paris, the Ritz Hotel, I love. I've never stayed there before because no, which is kind of strange. I was coming from a trip I'm aware that was a little not rough, but I was kind of like getting off a plane. I'd had one or two outfits and I'd had like a pair of shorts and like dirty shoes. And you know, I was going to get changed into something like acceptable. But I walked into the hotel and they were like, they wouldn't let me in. So it was like my pretty woman moment. Yeah, that's it. That's it. It was when I was, it was when I was like, you're like, I think I had a friend who was talking about it the other day. Who's like in hotels and she was like, you know, really speaking about what I think is unique or what I understand to be unique about the Ritz, which is that sense of nostalgia. Totally. And you know, that it's that it's both timeless, but timely. It's an alive institution. It feels like it's sparkling, I guess, particularly now since they did the renovation. So I don't hold a grudge. I have to say it's like more of a, it's more of a story that I enjoy now. I will tell you though that reminds me that's why I'm loyal to clarages in London. Okay. After the Indian Ocean tsunami, I was brought to London, flew from Colombo and Sri Lanka to London. And I was bandaged wearing like ripped shorts and a tank top and like a sweatshirt half on. And flip flops that didn't match. And I walked into clarages with friends and they said, welcome back, Mr. Berkis. You know, and I will always remember that. There's something different about the Concierge or Dolman in London. Like that's really a profession. And it's something that is earned over kind of decades. That's something really unique to London, I think. And I love clarages as well. Like particularly the little bar there, the fume bar. Yeah. When you're talking about the tsunami, actually that's the first time I remember in Australia that you came across on my radar because you know, we're more close to that part of the world. Talked me a lot about hospitality. Really wise up. Because I think that the Sri Lankans in general, you can't speak in general about any sort of population obviously. It's ridiculous. But very generally speaking, it's such an incredibly friendly place. And culturally when you're visiting a country that is sort of trained and has placed importance on being good hosts, you can feel that. You know that. Yeah, I feel like in Sri Lanka, even the colors are that gentle soothing greens, browns, whites. Yeah. Jeffrey Bawa. Exactly. A whole world of like just this beautiful tranquility and everyone's so connected to nature and all these things. But I say that it taught me a lot about hospitality because the Sri Lankans, even though they had such incredible devastation, losing their homes, losing their loved ones, losing their children and their elders and their husbands and their wives and their partners and all these things, they were so concerned with the expats that were there. They could not believe like what did we need, what could they do to help no matter where we went. And that is also something that stayed with me for my whole life. I've always wanted to ask you, have you traveled back to Sri Lanka and would you? So this is such a good question. A year after the tsunami. I, at the time I was on the Oprah show doing this. makeovers on the Oprah Winfrey show in the States. I went on Oprah to talk about my experience in the tsunami weeks after. And the reason that I did that was because Oprah had said that she was going to raise money for the region that we were in, Fernando and me, and that she would wave all of the admin fees, et cetera, and whatever dollars were raised from her audience would go directly and be administered to the region of Potavill where we were. And that's exactly what she did, and it was several million dollars, which translated into Sri Lankan Rupees as, you know, a fortune. And then they came to me and said, "What should we do with the money?" And I said, "I'm not a not-for-profit." I was vacationing. I don't know what they need. And so we partnered with these different, "How old were you then?" I was 28. But they told us, these agencies helped us figure out, like, feed the children and these very established, you know, agencies, how to disperse the money. And one of the programs that was super important to me was that we were able to restore, like, the woman who had the fishing cottage on the shore who served the fisherman coffee every morning. We built a new hut and got her her new supplies, and we provided bicycles to the villagers, and we actually built this two-story building that was a vocational school. It's a Muslim community, and so it was the only building because you couldn't see in from outside, where young men and young women were permitted religiously to be together. And so we built a vocational school in the village of Poteville, and we named it after Fernando. A year to the date after the tsunami, I got a call from Oprah, and she said, "The PM of Sri Lanka has invited me to the opening of the vocational school that you helped to build, and I told them I'm not doing that, but he should go do it." So I'm asking if you want to fly back. And I said, "Absolutely not." There's no, I'm sorry. I'm sure that you're going to frame this as a full circle moment, and I'm sure you're right. I just don't have it in me to do it. I apologize, and I appreciate the offer, but the answer is no. Definitively, the answer is no. And she said, "Absolutely no pressure, I understand." Ten minutes later, I called her back, and I said, "I changed my mind." She said, "I know your book done a flight out in two days, and this is the production crew that's going with you." And I said, "How did you know who's coming with me?" And she said, "Oh, Lisa Minor, and this one, and your friend Ann, and all these people, exactly who she knew I would want to make me comfortable." I said, "Can I bring my little brother, like as an emotional support animal?" And she said, "Yes." And I said, "Okay, great." And I said, "How did you know I was going to say because I know you?" I know that you would never let that opportunity go by. So a year to the date, December 26th, I stood in the exact spot where we were, and it was one of the most restorative, most incredible moments of my life. Well, maybe I probably was the only person that could gauge it. And it was like, "No, she is not particularly persuasive." Really? No, because she's been a long time since she's had to talk to anybody into anything. So, I mean, honestly, they asked going out, and she met what she said. There was no pressure whatsoever around it. It didn't matter to her. But I ended up going, obviously, and she knew it was an enormous gift for me. And I think more importantly, I knew it was going to be an enormous gift for me. Yeah, I mean, I have a friend whose husband passed away last year, and they were amazing travelers and had a few kids and just went absolutely everywhere. And she's now just slightly getting back on the path of going to the places that they that they went to. And I'm really fascinated in this idea of this traveling through grief and how you return to those places because they hold so much memory. And it's challenging, but I do think it's probably a great catharsis. It is. And actually, in preparation for this conversation, you would ask me about places that I really love. And one of them is Laos. And that's also connected to my tsunami experience because I had no ticket to go to Laos. I was in Chiang Mai with Jeremiah for exploring sort of the north of Thailand. And we were meant to go down to the coast in Thailand. We weren't married. We had just been dating. So, this is probably 13 years ago. And we were staying at the Dara Devi, which is now it's changed hands like 700 times. It has those cannonball trees. Yes, they're so cool. And that like insane spot. And like everything is delicious. And the night before we were meant to go down to the coast of Thailand, not back to Sri Lanka, I was up all night. And Jeremiah woke up at like four in the morning and he realized that I was awake and he said, what's wrong? And I said, I don't think I can do it. I feel like I have too much to lose. Like, I just don't think I can go back to the coast. And he said, then we won't go. And I remember we were going to stay at an Amman in Thailand. And the next day, the manager of the hotel called the Amman and sort of explained the situation. And they said, well, we would welcome him at our property in the long program. Yeah. I was like, okay, great. So that's how I ended up finding one of my favorite places I've ever been in my life. And that was like an incredible, incredible trip to both Jeremiah. And I still think of and hope to bring our children to one day. I think it's one of the best hotels. I totally do. It's so cool. But it's French colonial former hospital. Exactly. It's the land of sticky rice. Like what could go wrong? Yeah. And you know, in Luang Prabang, you have, you know, it's this language town on a river and it has, you know, the monks in Safran road. And it feels like of another era and a night market. Exactly. And the Palace is also single story. Exactly. Meekong is so beautiful with the wooden boats. It's like, it's really, really incredible. Yeah. And they've managed to maintain it in a way that maybe in some other towns and cities in that part of the world are less so. Yeah. And I think actually those hotels, I think the Amman, there does a really good job of connecting to the community. Well, when we were staying there, the cultural attaché to the hotel was the nephew of the last queen. And so he knew everybody and was like taking us around and wanted to know what we were particularly interested in. And you know, we went and made our offerings to the monks one morning. Jeremiah was, I was like, what time is that? It's like, it's at five. I was like, I'm not doing that. He was like, you're doing it because you'll never forget it. Of course. He regretted it. No, I, we do that. Okay. Yeah. I was the one that said, I'm not an early, well, I get that. Especially after traveling, you know, seven thousand hours. Yeah. But I did it. And you know, they're monks who are walking into the village and you're sort of at the end of the path. And you don't look at them. You keep your head down and you sort of pass the eggs and things like that. But it was like such an incredible experience, like obviously. But the cultural attitude to the hotel was super charming. And so, you know, I love that way of seeing a place. Did you take any kind of design inspiration from Laos? Massively. Yeah. I mean, the hotel itself is as we mentioned, like a former French colonial hospital. I mean, it's, yeah. And beforehand with a man, they had sort of these very monastic, very modern carry-hills designed spaces, which is why they became iconic in the way that they absolutely are. They defined a particular aesthetic. And then when they, this was one of the first ones where they broke into doing this. And I was so glad they did. Yeah. Because, you know, the, the fatched ceilings and the sort of painted wood, primitive furniture. And, you know, it just all worked so well. And, you know, I like to explore a place. Like, I don't want to go to a great hotel and just stay in the hotel, obviously. How boring is that? But, you know, the night market is walkable. All the craft stores, all of that stuff I was so into. In fact, I brought you one of the objects from my home that was from that trip. Should I get it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can hold one and I'll hold one. Okay. So I have no idea what these are named. Okay. So I didn't have any idea what they were either. One of the things that we organized was this boat trip down the Meekung River to see this caves of all the, the Buddha. And, which was incredible. And then on the way back, the boat stopped and docked on the Meekung. And we walked this main street of this super, super remote village. And there were shops. So, obviously, that somebody had organized like this for people visiting. But they were the kinds of shops where like they were like old teak cases with broken glass panes. And like they would turn the light on. And each case, as you looked. And these were in there. And I was using my phone to translate. And I was like, what are they? And he just kept saying they're silver. They're silver. And I was like, okay, how much are they? Because now I don't care what they are. I just want them right now. And he said, they're $200. And I put them back on the shelf. And Jeremiah, who had spotted them, I walked out without them. And he said, what are you doing? And I said, the guy wants $200. Like we're in the middle of absolutely nowhere. He's insane. That is like so rude. It's like we're like the farang. Like he's completely taking advantage of us. And Jeremiah was like, turn around, go back into that shop, give him his $200. Tell him, thank you. I don't, we are not leaving this like village without those things. So we brought them back to the hotel, put them in the suitcase and then brought them back to New York City and cleaned them up. And they were actually their silver, tusk ornaments. oh isn't that cool how amazing yeah and we use them I'm actually with handles in them, but they're among sort of my favorite thing. And so things, and when I talk so much in my book or in my practice and design about how things matter and how they should connect us to our memories, I mean, this is like the perfect memory, me chipping out in the middle of, you know, the most exotic place in the world. I would be furious with myself if I didn't have these. And Jeremiah reminding me again, like, you know, I tell people all the time, like when you see something incredible, just get it. - Something, I mean, I have some of the most treasured things that I've just gone. Actually, you know what, I'm not gonna haggle around this. I'm just gonna go for it. And then sometimes you realize both that they have this immense, sentimental value of the particular moment, like you're describing, or they actually might end up being valuable or really not. - Yeah, or not. - But it doesn't matter, I think. - Yeah, I think it's like. - It's just a tangible thing that wasn't meant to be a souvenir. - Right. - I think that's always the, my framing around something. I hate things that were designed to be a souvenir. All these beautiful places, these wonderful countries that we visit and the markets have been taken over by things made in China and things made by machine. And it's like, you see like these machine made blankets and you're like, what is happening? But when something's not designed to be taken with you, that to me is like always the best. It's like the only real rule of thumb. Was it the same trip that when you went to Laos and also Cambodia? - No, it wasn't, it was 20 years apart. - All right. - Of 15 years apart. - Okay. - And Cambodia, I was very early on. They were quite specific about going to the, all the archaeological sites you had to walk in a single file line behind the guide. You couldn't venture off, you couldn't go off and take photos because they were still very much in the very early days of clearing all the land mines. - Right. - It was really dangerous, but I went there with Fernando. - Okay. - So it was the, it was the same trip as the Indian Ocean tsunami for me. - Right. - Started in Bangkok, went to Cambodia, went back to Thailand and then to Sri Lanka. - So Angkor Wat in the temples, did you, how much time did you spend there? - We were there for six days, I think. But it was like six real days because we had been in Southeast Asia for a beat. So it wasn't like we arrived exhausted. And it was absolutely phenomenal. I hear that it's changed entirely. - Right. - From like that road, from the airport is now resorts and all these like crazy casinos and all these things. And it was not that. There were a few hotels in that area. The almond hadn't opened there yet when I was there. And we stayed in like this sort of grand kind of dusty hotel at the end of the square. But it was, we were picked up every day and brought exploring to a different site. It was amazing. - Did you do hot air balloons? Or was that-- - No. - That was pre. - Yeah. - I have a theory about like hot air balloons. I think the only chic thing to do is when there's a thousand of them or one of them. - Yes. - And so I would actually, I would actually, I'd actually quite like to do, is nothing more embarrassing than like three hot air balloons. - It's brutal. - Yeah, exactly. - It's like, it starts to take on the form of like a tandem bike. Because one of the things that I would love to do in the States and I've gone something similar is the Albuquerque hot air balloon thing. - I've done that. - Oh my God. - Yeah. - Was it kind of amazing? - Yeah, it was, it was particularly great. I went with my, my stepfather and my brother and he had organized that and our last morning, that's what we did and it was really cool. - Yeah. - It was really, really cool. And I'm fascinated by the American Southwest as well. - Yeah, I love Santa Fe. It's been a bit of time. - So great. - Yeah, it's amazing. - It's probably, have you ever been to the folk museum? - Yeah. - I mean, this tends to come up in almost every conversation of all I have with anyone, aesthetic. It's like insane. - Well, it's also such an epicenter of crafts and design. I mean, really, if you look around, it's like again, everything from like amazing, my mother used to call it a chunk of turquoise. I mean, pursuit of a chunk of turquoise. But, you know, it's just all the weaving the blankets and the textiles mixed with the jewelry and all of that stuff. I mean, yeah, bring it on. - It's one of the great American aesthetics. - 100% capitalized beautifully by Ralph. - Oh, that's true, actually. I didn't think about that. - Of course. - Yeah. - A little country. - Of course. - Of course. Yeah, just on the hot air balloon, I still do want to do that above the temples. - Oh, that would-- - I dawn with a thousand of them. I think that's so incredible. - Yeah, and I sort of feel like, I'm not the person that's so like orthodox about, no places can't have visitors. You know, that it has to stay in the same way. Like, it's such a, like a balance where, you know, some places are destroyed by too much tourism, but then you want people to see it. I, it's a constant friction point for me. Like, I think about like post pandemic, going to so many different places. Actually, during the pandemic, 'cause I managed to be able to travel in some way. And then I would see places that were completely empty. And it was quite a depressing thing. - Yeah. - A lot of people would talk about how a certain place was empty, like Venice. And that was honestly one of the most extraordinary things to see, is this like-- - I haven't even imagined. - Poetry in stone, but at the same time, if you think about the food culture there, the people there that work in hospitality-- - Well, almost all of them. - Well, exactly. And that was kind of a devastating thing to see. So, you know, it was kind of a great lesson, but do you often travel to Venice? - I do, actually. I really love Venice. It's Jeremiah's favorite place. And actually, what's really interesting is that, it's such a special place for Jeremiah and me that we've never brought the children. And so our kids are super well traveled. Our daughter was the lead flower girl in a friend's wedding in Rome at age three, you know, and we've been traveling since then. And our children, whenever we're leaving, they usually say to us, but which Mexico? - Oh God. - Which is great. - Yeah, that's cool. - You know, it's really, but, you know, the kids have been a lot of places, and obviously we spend a lot of a great deal of time in Portugal as well, but they've never been to Venice. And I think we're kind of saving it, 'cause it's really just that special. - Yeah, it's kind of nice for sure. And I think it's like, it's one of those things that the first time is-- - Oh, it's-- - Of course, reveals itself like forever more. You can go a million times. - A million times. - But there's only one first time. - Correct. - When the boat goes around the corner from the train station. - No, it's just insane. - It's true. This episode of Traveling Through is sponsored by Capital One. Capital One card holders are passionate about unforgettable experiences. Together, we partner to connect these curious travelers to world cultures, through expert guided journeys. From the peaks of Machu Picchu to the Grand Architecture of Vienna, these once-in-a-lifetime trips take you somewhere truly off the beaten path. Through Capital One Entertainment, eligible card holders can book exclusive experiences and so much more, all while earning elevated rewards. Save a card, all there's an 8% cashback, and venture X earns five X miles. Thanks to Capital One, your dream getaway is one step closer. - I went to Syria right before the war, and what was interesting then is that it wasn't full of junk, 'cause it wasn't geared to, you know, sometimes if you go to the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul, or the Medina in Marrakesh, you find things that are just, obviously, have nothing to do with the place. There are reproductions, and that can be kind of sad. - I saw once that the Grand Bazaar and had to have this set of 12 bowls, desperately. I had not seen the motif, I had not seen the glazing, I had not seen anything, they were like an e-cott pattern on the exterior, and then this really beautiful medallion in the bottom, and I hesitated, 'cause I didn't wanna carry them, and then they, of course, were like, no problem, we can ship them, and I was like, okay, great. So I bought them, and then I came home and they were in the Anthropology catalog. I was like, what's happening? - Well, I mean, I went with two of my closest friends last year, actually, both of them are very spiritual, and not about possessions, but evidently, I took off down the kind of alley in the Grand Bazaar, and then I turned around, I was like, where are the girls? Like, what are they doing? And I was completely lost, had no idea. Backtracked a little bit, and then it was counterfeit alley. And what do I do? But then I go in there, and they're like, these are perfectly Chanel. I mean, they probably the same makers, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so they left with Chanel shoes, and I had to buy something in order to get them out of the store. - Right, just let me go. - I often travel to food markets, as the first jumping off point when I go to a place I tell people all the time, my background is in food, so I look there, and that's kind of my map to a menu, or the seasons, or even the environment. I understand that you go to markets. - Yeah, crowd markets. - You see local markets. - Yeah, and we just did a trip together, prior and capital one, and you to Marida, which that's a place of great craft, and things that you can find in the market. - It's also such an interesting intersection, Marida. I was very good friends with the painter, and sculptor James Brown, and his wife Alexandra Brown. They had a publishing house in Marida. He painted in Marida. They raised their children in Oaxianda and Oaxaca, sort of left New York in the '80s. He was represented by Castelli. It was a really interesting time, and the children used to come greet visitors with spiders crawling up their arms. I remember the jeweler Kenny Lane was like, The Browns. My own children are savages and it's just like this really like great world, but they were the ones that introduced me to Marida because they bought a one of those great houses that looks like nothing from the street and then opens it as a leaveable. They're so beautiful, they're so incredible. So my first trip was with them and you know I think in travel and in life we have these people who are sort of like our Sherpas who guide us and like whatever experience we have if they're present they make something that much more magical. And the Brown family was definitely like that for me in my 20s and I remember being totally taken with Marida then. So to be able to bring a group of people back with prior and capital one was the most incredible experience for me because I have a lot of friends there. I love it there. I sort of you know, I'm fascinated still by it and it also there's a city that's growing and has continued to grow in I guess not sure I'm the correct person to say but what you're saying. To say the right way. Yeah. I agree with you. When you're going to Marida what do you buy there? What do you take on? I mean it's embarrassing. I had like a suitcase, Christie, Slogam who's here while we're recording had to bring a suitcase of stuff from Marida to our home in Portugal because I needed it because architectural digest was coming to shoot the house in Portugal a week after that trip. And so I was like these tassels I need these embroidered, I need these embroidered pillow covers for the children's beds. That would be quite well in like, in Elentasia, that is what I can't imagine. It does work. Thank you very much. For sure. Yeah. Comport. And we're in the North Elentasia so it's like a very rustic kind of funny situation. The house is not but all of my homes, all of my interiors have always been filled with Mexican craft since day one and my beach bag is from Chappas and like it's just I just feel very, I feel great surrounding myself with things that have been made by hand. Well, it was literally what was about to come out of my mouth when I think of Mexico and I think, you know, there's kind of superpowers of of every place. By hand is what I think about when I think about Mexico and I think about it from yeah. Of course. Yeah. Morely. Exactly. I think completely all crafted by hand, the trips. Exactly. You know, and that's my, that is my biggest barometer for a Mexican destination because I have traveled extensively throughout Mexico, the colonial cities and all these things in inland and the interior of the country, I find more interesting than the coasts. But if you sit down and you have a bad chip, I'm out. So why, why did you choose Portugal? We have conflicting stories about this in our family. I wanted visas for our family. It was during Trump's first presidency. Jeremiah wanted a beautiful place and he's actually Portuguese on his mother's side. Oh, I know, idea. Family from the Azores, which is why he looks like that, which is so annoying. Like you had to come from an island where everybody's beautiful. Yeah. Exactly. It's like a Wonder Woman like this is so stupid. So he has Portuguese background, does not speak Portuguese yet because it sort of died off with his grandmother. But we have a really good friend who lived in New York for 15 years, quit New York and moved back to Portugal, these Portuguese, but not to Porto where he was from to this region in the Alentezio that is really, really special. I went through this whole thing, you know, Marjorie Gubelman. Marjorie was doing this whole program. Mad March, the DJ. Mad March. I've never actually met her. I've really? No. Oh, she was like my first friend in New York. Oh, really? She's so iconic. Yeah, beyond iconic. I'm leaving New York, I'm moving to Lisbon. I don't want to be a poor old lady. It's not a good look for me. I said, that's really true. That's a terrible look for you. No true words ever spoken. Ironically, of course, she would be the last person that would be like that. She would be. I mean, who knows. She's very smart. Not old, wasp-way. She knows exactly how much everything should cost. And she gets very excited with a two-year-old Uber. She calls me to tell me, I call this probably more expensive than the Uber. But I will say that, you know, I went through this whole thing and did all the paperwork and the, it's a zoo and I hate stuff like that, like, apostle documents and whatever. And then I put all the paperwork in front of Jeremiah and instead of signing it, he called our friend André Viana and said, isn't there anything like amazing? Have you seen anything? And André said, I actually was going to buy this farm. I don't need it. I don't want it. But it's so beautiful. I don't want anyone to ruin it. Tomorrow, which we did, and we bought it that afternoon, and then we flew home and looked at each other and we're sort of like, what have we done? But Portugal's been a really interesting place for me. It was never really on a bucket list. It was never something I paid attention to. I don't eat seafood. So all of us. Oh, really? Yeah. But you're a little bit in your inland, right? We are inland, but we spent summers there as well. We rent a house at the beach in comport of every other French person. It's beautiful. Yeah. I love it. Our friends are always kind of inviting us to their desolate beaches, and sometimes we go, but often we stay at our club with the button where they bring you a Sunday when you press it. So, I mean, we have a really nice group of friends there, and we also have this incredibly beautiful parcel of land. It's an 18th century working farm with water channels in two springs, so it's completely self-sustainable. We have sheep and three massive dogs and three peacock and olive trees and every fruit grows, and the fruit is delicious, and we make orange juice every morning. And I'm hesitant when I'm talking about it, because I really have this sensitivity towards people from anywhere else who have successful careers, and then they move to this rural place. And they're like, it's so quiet. It's so amazing. And it's like, right, it's so quiet and so amazing, because you have the money to be able to do that. Hey, but I think that, yes, and also, no, because a lot of these communities are dying out. And if they don't get-- That's the best part, because we are integrated into this village. And the people that help us with the farm are all from the village, and so it's so great, and there's so much goodwill around our family and around our children in this area. And people don't bat an eye when they see two men with their kids in the grocery store, never want. Conversely, they watch old episodes of our makeover show in rural Portugal, and they're like, the guys, the guys. And we're like, yes, we're the guys. Now, do you say a pound of ground beef? So it's great. I said the Portuguese is coming along, somehow. I mean, listen, I can sort of get by-- I speak French and can get my way through Spanish and Italian, if I need to. So there's certain things I can understand when somebody's speaking to me, but I'm really, there's no vowels. I'm completely lost with Portuguese. It's horrifying. Yeah. It's really hard. It sounds like a cross between Spanish and Russian to me. It's just a very, or some like, or check or something. It's like, I don't-- it's tough. I know that there's been such a huge expat surge in revival, kind of. I remember going to Christian Luberton's house, because he was the, like, early adopter of-- Very early. Of Lisbon. And then, of course, he has an incredible hotel in Miletus, which is just south of comporter. And I know there's a huge expat, a huge expat community there in Lisbon. And that's given a new life to it. There's also risks. And I think that they need to thread the needle a little bit. They do. But in the country side, people, I think, forget that Portugal was, like, the poor man of Europe. And a lot of ways. And it was under a fascist dictatorship until not that long ago. Well, the whole aristocracy, and most of the wealthy families had to flee to Brazil, you know, for most of the '60s and some of the '70s as well. And when they returned, they came back to an economy that was really broken. So Portugal is, like, 30 years behind the rest of you. That has its charm. But there is this sort of innate joy that we've found. It's very, very family-centric. It's obviously very focused on nature and preservation and slow, sort of, living and thoughtful interaction. And that obviously will have, has universal appeal. I have a friend. You know, Norway, who has the project in situ, effectively, what in situ is is that they kind of work with particular communities to maintain and revive artisanal crafts. He's a very, very contemporary designer. He just did this, like, lighting collection for Dior. But he's got this amazing project. So he tries to look at the vernacular of a particular place. And then preserve it. I say that because there's two things that people, I think, don't really realise. In Portugal, I wonder if you agree. Like, actually, if you've got made in Portugal shoes, you're on a winner. Right. And then also sheets. Yeah. And then embroidery. Like, you get into some of those nuns, like, whoof. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Yeah. And I would also say, you know, a lot of what I sell things at mass so I can pay for the gardener in Portugal. But, you know, I sell bath mats made in Portugal to put the money back into Portugal. Well, there you go. And then because his bath mats are high quality. Exactly. There you go. But what I think is really interesting about craft as it applies to Portugal is that there is sort of nothing of bad quality. And even these mills that are mass producing things for these US or European department stores and things like that, even the Spanish department stores. I mean, most of the cotton, almost all cotton in Spain is from Portugal. So, it's like, even those great kids clothes, like the most Spanish children's clothing is the most beautiful in the world to me. But like, all of that is made. or the material is from Portugal, but there's just so much of that there, and it's so, so great. - Does it feel like that house has a sense of permanence for you? - A hundred percent. We feel very much like the caretakers, like that paddock campaign basically, like you never own it, just hang on to it to the next generation. It's like that's sort of what I feel is the calling around the house and sort of the tenant that we both feel and are very activated by. And interestingly enough, we renovated Jeremiah, did not me, renovated one of the homes on the land, on the farm for his parents. So his mom and stepfather lived there full time, and we basically at any given moment of three generations are ready. So that already sort of kicked off what I feel, and our daughter has already said that that's where she wants to be married. So I hope that's true. - So we like every time, every time a friend comes on, I ask them some questions kind of like a lightning round, let's say. So where's a place that you would always return? - Portugal. - Where's a place you'd never go back? - Cabo, but I'm forced to go back because everybody has a party there. - Really? - Yes, everyone from Los Angeles thinks it's the coolest place in the world. - Maybe I have no friends. - You should know, yeah, you don't know. You have the right friends. - Do you have a favorite hotel? - No, not one. I mean, I really love a well-run hotel, something sort of either historic or designed forward. - What's the one that first comes to mind when you say that? - The Hacienda de San Antonio, which was leased by the Aman in Kulima in Mexico. - Okay. - It was Alex Goldsmith. - Yeah, you have property. - And he has a-- - Quix maler as well. - Yes, yes. And it was this kind of incredible place in this dewy, foggy hilltop in the central highlands of Mexico. But I think it's still there, but it's not run by Aman any longer and not that that matters, but it's sort of amazing. - Yeah, he had that fantastical eccentric English thing that sometimes when it's brought to bear in a particular place can make something truly magical. - Magical, yes, exactly. - What about a memorable meal or favorite restaurant? - I kind of have a favorite restaurant everywhere I go. And I mean, everywhere I go. Like in Chicago, where I have offices, it's Penny's noodle shop, where you can have Thai food for $7, but it's-- - Chicago is a great food town. - Oh, it's a great food town. - In Milan, it's Longay, in Paris, it's Shae George. In Lisbon, I actually like Jean-Séquat Asia like really into that menu. I think it makes me really, and there are kids love it. - So there's a spot where we are that sort of we always go back to. - What about museum or cultural institution? - I actually really like the Reina Sophia in Madrid. I'm not sure why I'm so drawn to it and so happy and comfortable there, probably because the interiors are largely intact. And I like to see that. I don't love an empty room. My eye kind of just skips over it too quickly, but when there's furniture, it makes me really happy. I think here in New York, the Noi Gallery is one of the most beautiful museums in the world. - Also one of the best gift shops. - Yes, incredible. - Yeah. - And great library, like in that gift shop as well. - Okay, well this is probably impossible for you, but shop or market. Oh, it's not good, it's interesting. - No, it's not at all. Market. I think the best market in the entire world is the flea market in Parma. - Oh, wow. I mean, I cannot, I mean, it's not charming, it's a series of airplane hangers. - It's a convention center. - It is for sure a convention center, but the hangers are divided, you've been. - Yeah, actually for the first time. I mean, in October, yeah. - Oh my God, I'm so jealous that I've been in a beat. But the first time I went, I was dating this guy who lived in Milan, a friend of mine was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna go to Parma. It's a flea market, if you're interested. If I'm interested, and I went and I had nothing with me and we were gonna go for a couple of hours and come back to Milan, and I bought a toothbrush. I got a hotel room, I wore the same clothes. I was like, I'm not leaving here. - They're here, exactly. - Like this could burn down and I'm still gonna be the last person out of it. - You know, it's interesting 'cause it's somewhat, you know, a lot of these fares have been a little hollowed out by the online auction houses, but this one really, it's nice. - Yeah, it's definitely worth going. I have a great friend who helped me with my apartment in Milan called Fanny, who has studio drag. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And so she's sort of like guiding me gently and or not so gently in what's up on it, and we went there and it was kind of heaven. So I-- - Well, also it was like a time in Milan when there was nothing to buy. There were like four antique Steelers or vintage Steelers. And I remember this was JJ Martin and me for JJ started her company. So she kind of had nothing to do. I certainly had nothing to do. And in Milanese slang, there's this term called a chura, which you know, JJ and I were like the veramente chura. Like we were the housewives wearing like the Burberry raincoat and the gold jewelry and just hanging out at St. Embrose and getting the sight of his life to be a chura. - Completely. - I'm on the right track. - You are doing a really good job, actually. - Well, maybe not my outfit. - It's no general attitude. - The mental state is very, very much. - I can feel it, it's a kindred spirit. - So I ask everyone where they would, in an ideal world, removing all constraints of our lives or distance, where they'd like to spend a weekend, a week, a month, and a year. - I would spend a weekend in maybe Rome, a week in the Yucatan. I don't wanna be there for a month 'cause my hair gets weird. I would be in, so a week in the Yucatan, a month in maybe Southeast Asia, like Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, something like that. Though no, that I'm saying that out loud, it starts to feel a little long. Maybe traveling around in that region, 'cause there's that affair answer. - Yeah, that's fair answer. - Okay, and a year would be at the farm in Portugal, but the family. - So the very last question I'll ask you, and interpret it however you wish is, what are you traveling through right now? - Wow, I'm traveling through a lot right now. I'm traveling through the joys of Fatherhood, which is incredibly rewarding in all these different ways. I'm also traveling through sort of a reboot of my brand, which has been really interesting. We've signed like sort of eight new licensing deals in the last two years, and we're working with all these really interesting partners and all these different categories. So I feel very reenergized around that. I'm traveling through what my next sort of television project should be, what it should look like, what it should be about, and there's lots of things swirling around that right now as well that I, you know, I'm 53, I don't wanna make like a decision just to be on TV. I've never, that's never been the goal. And I'm traveling through a mother who has dementia, which is, you know, my mom was such a incredibly forceful, wonderful sort of guide to me as a child, as a teenager, and as a young business person. So it's a really interesting time for the family in that way. - We have to archive all of those memories and objects. - Yeah, we do. - Thanks, Nate. - Thank you. - It's been a real pleasure. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)