NASA Doctor: "I Saw A UFO Hovering In THIS Secret Hangar" (Ft. Greg Rogers)

In the world of expense management, SAP Concur is here to help, from cost control slipping to travel chaos. SAP Concur has an integrated travel and expense solution to help you overcome problems like overburdened teams, decisions looming. When travel, expense and AP are connected with a single AI-supported solution, SAP Concur keeps you ahead of problems. Visit Concur.com to learn more. So it's what, 1992? 1992. I was the chief of aerospace medicine, and he said, I've got something to show you even you have never seen. Wow. And when I sat down in his chair, there's a saucer 20 feet across. It was sort of like a modified egg. There were no rivets, no seams. But then later on, it rotated. It was clear as day. It said U.S. Air Force. But then when I said, why would we build it in a design? He looked at me and went, we got it from them. I flew helicopters and I flew F-16s. No vehicle I have ever known of could obtain a 45 degree angle of attack without moving. So when these companies say, look, we made this thing, look at how fancy it is. That's to get the people's attention so they don't look at this other thing that they're spending all the money on. Different parts of the brain have different activities. But you know that, don't you? Maybe you should interview me. In 2023, when David Grush testified under oath before Congress, he explained to the world and to our system of government a host of staggering revelations. The military. The military has an alien craft retrieval program. There were bodies in some of these vehicles. And he also confirmed what had long been speculated, that some combination of secret military programs and private aerospace companies have developed reverse engineered versions of this alien technology. While many of you watching this channel might have thought, like me, that Grush's personal bravery and commitment to disclosing these truths was worthy of the utmost respect, it was unfortunate to see the tried and tested playbook of discrediting and ad hominem attacks that emerged in the wake of his testimony. Yeah, definitely experienced some really nuts stuff. You know, I don't like throwing shade, but like Neil deGrasse Tyson, right? Oh, yeah. He's made up his mind. I read, I've read his tweets and I'm like, dude, you have a PhD in physics. Where's your curiosity? I can't even believe. There's no evidence that would convince an authentic skeptic. However, even within UFO world, there were some, who questioned the fact that Grush had not personally seen these crafts, but was relying on the testimony of dozens of those who had. Members of the military or government that he hoped would personally come forward and back up his claims. One man watching this testimony knew that he could be one of those to come forward. I thought, I've got his six o'clock covered. To stand up in a similar way, with all of the risk of reputation and bravely break his silence about what he had seen. Dr. Gregory Rogers, a recently retired chief flight surgeon for NASA and the U S air force and former director of aerospace medicine has decided that now is the right time to tell the world what he had witnessed in stunning firsthand detail that we have a craft that in some way or another didn't come from here. This wasn't something in the sky off in the distance or on radar coming out of the ocean. This was something in our possession, but this conversation isn't. Only. About UFOs. It's about God, the universe, science, as well as life and death. Dr. Rogers has been witness to the most confronting sites that most of us can scarcely imagine. And in this conversation, he bravely speaks about his PTSD and the memories he carries and why he believes UFO disclosure and what he saw in our possession is the only path toward progress. So today I'm so proud to present this conversation with the brilliant Dr. Greg Rogers. This is an absolute honor. I have Greg Rogers here. You are another just extremely interesting witness who I've been trying to get on, on the show for a while. Thank you so much to Chris Leto, Leto files, an amazing show around UFOs and he's, you know, also a former pilot and he does a really amazing interview with you. So I recommend everybody go check that out. But he introduced us and after watching your interview with him, I was just, I was just, I was just so excited to be able to talk to you. I'm so excited to be able to talk to you. greatest thing some of the nasa managers wanted to make space suits and they did not want to involve the air force or the rescue forces so they made these beautiful blue flight suits you can still see astronauts having pictures taken in the blue flight suits so when you go back in history you'll you'll see that when they showed it to the rescue forces we all went you gotta be kidding those are blue when they bail out into the ocean how are we going to see them so um even if you go back to like the first few uh launches um sts1234 they had to go to beale air force base and borrow the yellow space suits that the u2 and sr71 guys fly um because you couldn't fly with the nasa ones so um anytime you know go back and look at young and crippen in sts1 they've got yellow flights and the space suits on you whoa pretty crazy well yeah no you think of it as this kind of um untouchably perfect you know organization and uh yeah it's it's not that yeah well you know it all boils down to humans and human error so so okay so for context for the audience you're at patrick air force base and patrick air force base is a space that's located in the middle of the country in 1992 1992 that's um in florida right so you mentioned you're in florida it started out as the banana river naval air station and while it was the banana river uh naval air station um flight 19 went missing and so the pby that also went missing looking for them took off from flight ops uh at patrick air force base but it was the banana river naval air station why don't you back up for a second just give people context about what flight 19 is okay well flight 19 was a doomed set of aircraft because when they took off the lead pilot um became confused and so um there are some areas out there that even on our maps while i was flying there you can't trust uh your compasses because of magnetic um deviations and so that's part of what's some of the problem in the bermuda triangle which which was this was in this is so interesting because i just met with a former nasa engineer out here and he was like look i think a lot of ufo stuff's a little overhyped but he goes i can tell you definitively that there is a little patch around the bermuda triangle similar like near there where there is just tons of electromagnetic anomalies going on he like he's like i don't know if it's like a portal or like what it is well my personal belief is that there were probably in ancient ancient ancient times metal meteorites that landed under the ocean floor and as we fly over them you can watch your compasses go crazy and then you fly two or three more miles and they settle down and you go right back to normal so there are times that especially with our pilots who know how to fly by minute flight rules uh they would just forget the normal uh navigation continue on their path because they knew when they got to the other side of the deformation area that they could trust their instruments again so what happened with flight 19 well they took off and they were going to go out and and do a bombing raid well the the lead pilot got disoriented you know like i talked to some of the guys that were in flight ops on that day and they were laughing and said the lead flight pilot was arguing with his other guys because they were saying we're traveling east and he said no we've got to be in and around the islands and near south florida and they said no these islands are the bahamas and uh there were arguments about whether or not some of the crews would break off and so they decided that they were going to go to the south florida and they said no and say this guy is going to kill us and so these guys were listening on the radio to all of these navy pilots arguing amongst themselves so um finally one of the guys said that two of the airplanes broke off and said we're heading west because uh we we are uh totally lost but he thought they were still over the um gulf of mexico and so he continued to fly east but he was confused the weather conditions were bad that day and so there were all sorts of problems well when they lost contact with flight 19 they had this flying boat and it had two two wings but it could land on water well uh they went out a few miles and they lost contact with them but there was a visiting ship that registered an in-flight explosion at about the location of the plane and they were in a situation where the pby would have been so because of the confluence of uh the loss of this flying boat and flight 19 everybody um heard the first big great story about the bermuda triangle from that flight wow and so is does anybody know what happened to flight 19 they just lost contact they were heading east and nobody knows they only have limited amounts of fuel yeah and when you ran out of fuel you're not flying anywhere right and it was never found and uh it was never found and then you know back on the base is there speculation that uh you know all these sort of weird electromagnetic anomalies that you mentioned uh you know what do people think caused caused well these things um there there were discussion of of all of these things but we had areas that we had marked on our maps that this is an area that you don't want to you know you don't want to you know you don't want to trust your magnetic compass on and and so we knew to either avoid those areas or account for the effect of the magnetic flaws when you flew over that area fascinating do you you know what i've found just anecdotally is when i meet people inside the government or who've worked at you know nasa or the air force you expect them to be less conspiratorial than people on the outside and out of the civilian world right because like they they sort of know more well one way or the other often it's the inverse where they've seen a thing or two they know that you know there's some weird things in our reality like the you know bermuda triangle thing you just mentioned and so that kind of opens them up to a whole host of possibilities are there any other things outside of the core experience that we're going to get into in 1992 that you experienced in a sort of government contact context you know air force or nasa that you've experienced in a sort of really kind of uh widened your world view well um there were a couple of just sort of transient events that we all looked at each other and said you know what was that this this one time we were flying out uh i believe an aircraft had been reported spotted in in the like 130 miles off the 110 radial uh from uh cape canaveral and so as we're flying out there uh the weather's kind of funny and so we had estimated uh what our time of arrival uh would be and so we were flying straight and level didn't seem like anything was going on but but when we got there um we were 10 minutes later than what we expected and so we thought you know man we must have deviated from course or or something but we're all sort of looking at each other and we're all sort of looking at each other and we're all sort of looking at each other like nah it could couldn't have been that but you know it was just one of those weird events but it it's not like you're going to talk about it or report it we're not going to include it in the demission brief what do you think caused it it could have been that the winds we encountered made a difference but it wasn't anything that we recognized at the time fascinating so um what was we all just looked at each other nobody really said anything uh-huh we didn't speculate about that yeah that's also you know a cultural thing i think where it's like you all look at each other you're like that was weird and then you kind of move on you're stoic yep well i want to get into the core okay experience um which uh you've you've had a lot of courage to to come out and speak about so it's it's what 1992 1992 and what is your role and where are you stationed okay i was the chief of aerospace medicine so i was the chief of aerospace medicine so i was the chief of what does that mean okay um the 45th space wing owned everything at the cape patrick air force base eastern space and missile center and some other things that um we won't be discussing but there was a medical group that was part of the 45th space wing and that was the 45th medical group so my colonel the commander uh answered to the general for everything to do medically. You know, if somebody got sick at the officer's club from eating something last night, well, we got to go investigate, you know, with something there. Just every kind of thing you can imagine. Did you manage a lot of people in that capacity, or were you? I had a bioenvironmental engineer. I had a medical, a military public health officer. And then underneath them were probably about 20, 25 people. But then I also was the chief flight surgeon. So I oversaw the flight medicine program. So I had a really good flight surgeon that was there when I got there, and she was wonderful. So she helped teach me the ropes. When I first got there and helped run everything. But we also had to do everything else. Cape Canaveral Air Force Station is a large facility. And so there has to be a company that oversees all of the normal stuff like you would expect a town council would. So somebody's got to maintain the roads. Somebody's got to fix the roads. Somebody's got to do the traffic lights if they go bad. But this company was called EG&G, which is a major, major military industrial corporation. And so they oversaw all of the normal operations of that. However, that does not reprise the U.S. Air Force from being responsible for it. So just like any contractor, you have to have a. Someone monitor the contract to make sure that the contractors are doing the right thing. So what was EG&G responsible for on the base? They were responsible for all of the grounds. They maintained the buildings and did all of that kind of stuff. Now then, in this building, they maintained it, but it was leased to Lockheed. This one was leased to Martin Marietta. Now then, the reason I say them separately was that Martin Marietta was separate from Lockheed at the time I was there. Only in 1995 did they ever join to be Lockheed Martin. So Martin Marietta was doing a whole bunch of other things. But every contractor there, Boeing, Raytheon, everything, they had to sort of lease their housing, their support, everything from EG&G. That's interesting. So EG&G had this prime contractor position on the base? Yes, they were the prime contractor for Cape Canaveral. And do you know much about them? Because they have an interesting history. They came out of MIT and Doc Edgerton. Yeah, EG&G is a whole story unto itself. And, you know, I'm not going to touch that one. Guys, as you can tell, Dr. Rogers was keeping some information and speculation about the company EG&G to himself here. But this is one of those histories I can't resist unpacking. Because EG&G's role in the UFO cover-up might be far bigger than most people realize. So a quick history lesson. EG&G is most associated with one of its founders, Harold Doc Edgerton. He was a brilliant scientist at MIT, a close associate of the legendary figure associated with the UFO world and the MJ-12, and the father of the American nuclear program, Vannevar Bush. Doc Edgerton had developed a revolutionary use of stroboscopic cameras that, along with other pioneering wartime technology, ended up being used in the Manhattan Project. All of those amazing photographs of the initial microseconds of nuclear blasts, that was EG&G. EG&G was a great example of that. From the start, they were embedded in the deepest military secrets. Remember, when a test nuclear detonation goes off, often all of the sensors get fried in the area. This is caused by an electromagnetic pulse. So the novel filming techniques EG&G had developed would have been crucial to capturing UFOs. Because when the bomb goes off, you can't get, in the first few seconds, there are no electronics that work. So you're not able to get any electrical readings or measurements. So all you have to look at are the films coming back from the test. And we all know UFOs show up consistently around nuclear detonations. This would have given EG&G proprietary and early knowledge of the UFO phenomena. By the 1950s, EG&G was woven into the fabric of the Atomic Energy Commission itself. If you've watched this channel before, you will know that the Atomic Energy Commission has more than a few shady ties to UFO programs. that handled his background checks, and EG&G that flew him on those unmarked Janet flights to S4. He claimed that there were nine alien crafts at S4. Even if you doubt him, the kind of gatekeeping he describes is exactly what EG&G specialized in. Stories that support the idea that EG&G manages large complexes, many of them underground, and that they are directly experimenting on or handling recovered UFOs have surfaced time and time again. For instance, in 1991, a caller into a Las Vegas radio show claimed he was hired to run electricity 3,000 feet underground on a certain test site, a job that came through Reynolds Electronics, an EG&G subsidiary. He also said that military personnel were working alongside beings that resembled aliens. And many hardcore UFO researchers have placed EG&G's name on the ground. Alongside Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop, Bechtel, and a roster of private entities working on UFO technology. In 2001, a former Lockheed and CIA contractor went public saying that Lockheed is working on UFO technology and that scientists contracted with EG&G were organizing work in private labs in Utah. A year after that, an infamous meeting would take place between scientist Eric Davis and Admiral Thomas Wilson, who overheard the conversation. The meeting saw basically all American military technology at the time. In this meeting, Wilson expressed extreme frustration at a covert UFO reverse engineering program being hidden from him. And the meeting happened to take place just outside of EG&G's special projects headquarters in Las Vegas. And in 2023, George Knapp was informed by a senior EG&G manager, Alfred O'Donnell, that they had recovered a flying saucer in New Mexico and had a live being that had been killed. And he said, From the Manhattan Project, to Bluegill Triple Prime, to Area 51 and beyond, EG&G's fingerprints are everywhere in the UFO story. They don't just guard the doors, they manage the facilities where the technology is stored, where it's studied, and where the deepest layers of the UFO cover-up are kept alive. And as you'll see, it's a pattern that connects directly to what was happening at Cape Canaveral, where Dr. Rogers was working. But before we get to that, let's talk about the EG&G project. Back to that conversation. Remember, for even deeper dives into parts of these interviews that don't make the final cut, check out the American Alchemy magazine on Substack. The mysterious flight disappearance of Flight 19 that Rogers mentioned earlier, we've got the full story there. So sign up today. I'm putting the link in the description. Now back to Rogers' core testimony. And so I had to oversee him. So I spent a lot of time with him. We were buddies, got along. He had been there for many, many years. And so he actually knew a lot more about what was going on than I did. So I would go and then he would say, hey, we've got new operations here, a new operation here, new operation here. I'm going to send my escort with you. And that way you can take a look at what we're doing. So on this particular day, I went out to the first set of buildings. I went to the second set of buildings. I went to the third set of buildings. Well, we were only going to look at three sets. So while we'd gone into the clean room and come out, because it's a clean room, you have to take your little hair bonnet off. You had to take your gloves off. You had to take an outer jacket, like a lab coat, off. And then you had to take the booties off of your shoes. Well, he had done it so many times that he said, okay, see you, doc. Boom, boom, boom. And he was out of there. So I was taking just a little bit of extra time. So maybe one or two minutes was all that separated the EG&G escort from leaving the building from me leaving that building, I thought. Well, as I, left that area, I went through this set of double doors, and there was a major that was standing there. And he immediately recognized me as the flight surgeon. But there were so many people that I did physicals on that, you know, I couldn't remember everybody. So I didn't even really recognize him. But he was smiling real big. And he said, I've got something to show you even you have never seen. Wow. Now, then, I believe, the reason he said that was because with the EG&G contract, I went to probably 80% of the buildings on Cape Canaveral, the people in a specific work site for compartmentalization, they could go to that building, and then they left, but they couldn't go to any other buildings. That way, we didn't have cross contamination of people learning things that that they had no need to know. So he knew I went all over the Cape, you know, on top of everything else. For a lot of the different sections, you had to have specific ID cards. So at the time, I probably had like 12 different ID cards, he had one. So but, you know, he was anxious to show me something. So he said, I got to show you this. So I said, okay, well, show it to me. And, you know, let's get on with it. You think he's trying? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What what day is this? Do you know the date? No, I would say it was in like April or May. It wasn't. It was a hot day, but it wasn't quite fully summer. Was it? Was it midday towards the end of the day? It was probably I would guess about one or two o'clock in the afternoon. Before we jump into today's episode of American Alchemy, I want to thank today's sponsor, Hexclad.com. Hexclad.com has been a great sponsor for me since I was a little kid. And I've been using Hexclad.com since I was a little kid. And then Gordon Ramsay adopted it. No joke. He actually uses them at home and in his restaurants. And as we all know, that guy doesn't suffer fools gladly. So he probably has equally high standards for his cookware. First meal I made a seared steak and some scrambled eggs. And then Gordon No sticking, no smoke alarm, no soaking it overnight like it's some artifact from an archaeological dig. They're oven safe up to 500 degrees Fahrenheit. They're toxic free. And they even come somehow with a lifetime warranty, which to me sounds like cookware immortality. And the knives, Japanese Damascus steel, 67 layers. It's this kind of precision that makes you wonder if these were reverse engineered from material found at a UFO crash site. So if you've got some sad pan haunting your kitchen, replace it. For a limited time, get 10% off my exclusive link, Hexclad.com slash Jesse. Again, that's Hexclad.com slash Jesse. Please use that link. It shows a ton of support for the channel and you get a discount. Now back to the episode. So I'm anxious to get back to my clinic. Our clinic would close at 4 to 4.30. And so anything that had gone on while I was gone, I would have to deal with when I got back. So I was interested in getting back. Well, he took me inside this office that was there. And you know, that didn't seem unusual. There was there was a door and then there were two or three windows there and they all had louvered blinds on them. Well, as soon as he took me inside there, he shut the door and locked it. And then he closed the louvered blind for the door. And then he closed the louvered blinds for all of these windows. So I'm thinking, what's it what's he doing? You know, this is kind of strange. Well, he sat down at his computer console. And so he turned it on. And he turned on his video apparatus, you know, computer screen. And so I'm just sort of sitting there talking, but he's talking kind of, excited. So I'm mainly just listening, you know, okay, this guy's excited about something, you know, whatever. So when the screen finally came up, he did something, you know, to sort of fine tune it, I guess, or something. And then all of a sudden, he said, sit down here. So he moved to the seat next to his chair. And I sat down in his chair. And when I sat down in his chair, I looked at his screen. And I was totally shocked. It was a closed circuit television feed. And it had no identification of classification, location where it was coming from the time of day it was anything about it, the screen was completely clean. All I could see was this closed circuit television. How'd you know it was a closed circuit? Feed because that's what it looked like. Sure. And, you know, I'd seen dozens and dozens of them, and, you know, here's another one. And it was just like all of the others. There was nothing special about it except for what was on the screen. So when I looked at it, there were two guys over to the right lower hand, and they looked like engineer types to me because they had on lab coats. This is in the frame on the screen? In the frame on the screen. Well, over to the right, there were three guys, and they had Tyvek suits, I would call them now. And they were standing there talking, and right in between them, there's a saucer. I would say it's a flying saucer, but it wasn't. It wasn't flying yet. But there's a saucer 20 feet across. The surface was completely smooth. There were no rivets, no seams, no windows, nothing that I could see. Do you know what color it was? Oh, it was pearly white. Pearly white, and was it an egg or was it a saucer? Well, it was a saucer. It was shaped, you know, an egg is a little off-center. If you could modify the egg to where it wasn't off-center, that's sort of what it would look like. So it was like, yeah, I can totally picture. So it's like a pancake or something with some. Yeah, a really thick pancake. Yes, with some concave ends or whatever. Yeah, interesting. Now then, there were, because this was pearly white, I mean, you couldn't see anything else on it. There were black rectangles that had been, I assume, painted onto the vehicle. So along the beam, about 60% of the spacecraft was above and 40% below, but it had this beam that went across. From the 1230 to 230 point, there was a horizontal rectangle that was pure black. And then from the 330 to 530, it was pure black. And then as I saw motion later, I could tell that at 630 to 830, there was a horizontal rectangle that was black and another one at the 930 to 1130. So along the beam, these four rectangles covered most of the area. Now then, at what I would call the three o'clock position, there was a vertical rectangle. And I could barely see something at the six o'clock position, but as I saw it moving later, I could tell that there was the same rectangle at three o'clock, six o'clock, and nine o'clock. Aside from that, it was just pearly white. I immediately thought, you know, this is a testbed program. This is an experimental vehicle. And they've had to paint the rectangles so that they could watch the motion. Well, at the 12 o'clock position, there was something that I could sort of see but not really see. But then later on, it rotated clockwise. And when I saw it, it was clear as day. It said U.S. Air Force. And then just above that was an Air Force. Air Force flight insignia. And so the craft rotated. How did it rotate? Well, it was initially on the floor. And then all of a sudden, it just lifted off just light as a feather. If I had not been watching it, I might not have even seen it. It was such smooth motion. So now all of a sudden, it's floating three feet up. Well, the nose of it started to. It didn't have a nose. But what I'm identifying is the 12 o'clock position began to rotate clockwise and went one full circle, 360 degrees. Then it paused for a few moments. And then it rotated back 360 degrees the other way so that it was in exactly the same place it had started. But this had given me a complete view of the entire craft. And, you know, if it did not have the black markings, it didn't have the U.S. Air Force on it or the Air Force insignia, it was so pearly white that even if it had rotated, I don't know that I could have detected the motion. So with those rectangles on there and the markings, I could see the rotation. And you saw U.S. Air Force. And I saw U.S. Air Force on it. And so these two guys in the room, what are they doing? Well, everybody left before they initiated action. I should have said that. But this sort of like warning beacon went off and tells everybody, okay, get out of the way. We're about to do this. So it was like some sort of test or something. Oh, yes. I absolutely believe that this was the test of a prototype flying saucer and I believe it was probably owned by a defense contractor and was not part of the U.S. Air Force inventory. Do you have any sense of which defense contractor might have owned it? There was nothing that gave me a clue. So whatever I came up with would be speculation on my part. But like, I don't know, maybe EG&G given that? Oh, no, no. It wouldn't have been EG&G. Okay. It would have been something like Lockheed or Northrop. Boeing, Northrop. Got it. Raytheon. Raytheon. That would have been a little bit of a big thing for Raytheon by themselves, but they could have certainly been in partnership with the consortium, you know, Martin Marietta. At the time, this is 92, Lockheed and Martin Marietta had not joined into Lockheed Martin yet. So in 95. They did that. But somebody owns this thing and it's and I did not believe it's the U.S. Air Force. Every time, you know, when we wanted to have the F-117, we didn't start off with the F-117. Back in the 70s, we started with what's called the Have Blue system. And so it was a primitive attempt to try to show that we could do this. Once we had the Have Blue system, working and functioning, then the Air Force said, OK, we're going to give you a contract. We want you to build this many F-117s. And so they modified it and improved it and then made the actual F-117. And then the Air Force paid them for it. And it went into the Air Force inventory. So at that point, the Air Force owned it. But, when it was Have Blue and it was the preliminary designs, the U.S. Air Force did not own that, even though it had U.S. Air Force markings. It was owned by Lockheed Skunk Works. And so you're you're looking at this craft. Do you have any sense of outside of the U.S. Air Force insignia on it, whether it is extraterrestrial or not from here? Well, whether it is from here? When I saw this thing, I looked over the guy and I said, who would design something like that? And he said, I can't tell you. But then when I said, well, why would we build it in a design like this? This is exactly what he did. Mm hmm. So, I mean, I don't have to figure out what that means. But that that was exactly what he said. We got it from them. Now, then one of the characteristics of this thing was that as soon as it became activated, there were electromagnetic discharges across the surface of the vehicle. But I could not detect any sort of structure for what was producing those signals. You know, if if you see a. A little patch on the side of an aircraft, you can say, oh, well, either that's an electronic marker. You know, these days we we even have radars that are having a very small location, but there was nothing like that. This thing was nothing to generate the electromagnetic. Yes, it was pearly white. How could you even see electro? Magnetic anomalies around the craft just through. Well, first of all, I also heard him, but it was like little sparks just like this. like static discharge static discharges and and so it was going on all over but it was if the vehicle itself was charged up or something yes the the vehicle appeared to be making the electrical discharges were there any transformers or power sources well at the top of the um craft there was a pole and going up from the pole there were three um lines that um impressed me as umbilicals so they may have been feeding electricity to it they may have been um feeding electrical controls whatever now then that's one of the reasons that i immediately thought that um it was a contractor model because you can't fly in in air or space with umbilicals tied to your craft so um i felt like that what this indicated to me was that on the inside they did not have sufficient power source control mechanism anything and so through the umbilicals they were having to feed this information into the vehicle to make it function properly so if it was a more mature uh platform it should have had all of these things internal to the spacecraft without having to have umbilicals feeding into it to provide provide a power and information or whatever else it was did you get any other context did you say where are we where's this video porting into or what do you mean we got it from them who are they no well the the thing is i think it's a good question i think it's a good question i think it's a good thing is uh by this time i had watched it levitate rotate 360 rotate counterclockwise 360 it had moved left and right forward and back really it moved left and right did it move smoothly or oh yeah very smoothly it's just like you know um if you're playing a video game for the first time and and you've got an aircraft and you you want to try out the controls to make sure it works right was it any sort of bubble or something a lot of people say that that it's the um these electromagnetic discharges were audible you could hear them um and you could see them but it it was sort of like there was an electromagnetic um cover on it um like a but it was sort of like there was an electromagnetic um cover on it um like a almost like a plasma shield almost like a plasma shield that had formed on it now when i think of it that had formed on it now when i think of it moving moving if it was moving according to the if it was moving according to the sheer electromagnetic forces sheer electromagnetic forces for for it to rise up those forces should for for it to rise up those forces should have been aimed down have been aimed down that's not what happened as you know i'm that's not what happened as you know i'm always on the hunt for things that help always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp me stay sharp focused and full of energy while i'm focused and full of energy while i'm diving into life's mysteries and making diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen this show happen and i've got to say mud water has and i've got to say mud water has completely transformed my mornings completely transformed my mornings back in the day i used to struggle with back in the day i used to struggle with that post coffee crash that post coffee crash and let's not even get into the caffeine jitters and let's not even get into the caffeine jitters mud water gave me the smooth steady mud water gave me the smooth steady energy i was missing energy i was missing it's packed with functional mushrooms it's packed with functional mushrooms like lion's mane chaga and reishi plus like lion's mane chaga and reishi plus turmeric and cacao turmeric and cacao all working together to keep me focused all working together to keep me focused calm and grounded honestly it's like calm and grounded honestly it's like coffee went on a yoga retreat and came coffee went on a yoga retreat and came back zen what i love most is that it's back zen what i love most is that it's not just about replacing coffee not just about replacing coffee it's a whole new ritual it's a simple it's a whole new ritual it's a simple nourishing way to start the day nourishing way to start the day and i actually look forward to it every and i actually look forward to it every morning every ingredient is usda morning every ingredient is usda certified organic vegan non-gmo and certified organic vegan non-gmo and there's zero sugar it's energy that there's zero sugar it's energy that doesn't mess with your sleep or make you doesn't mess with your sleep or make you question your life choices at 3 a.m question your life choices at 3 a.m ready to make the switch to cleaner ready to make the switch to cleaner energy head to mudwater.com that's energy head to mudwater.com that's mudwtr.com and grab your starter kit mudwtr.com and grab your starter kit today right now our listeners get an today right now our listeners get an exclusive deal up to 43 off your entire exclusive deal up to 43 off your entire order plus free shipping and a free order plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code rechargeable frother when you use code jesse that's right up to 43 off with jesse that's right up to 43 off with code jesse at mudwtr.com after your jesse at mudwtr.com after your purchase they'll ask you how you purchase they'll ask you how you found it and if you can't find it found it and if you can't find it please show your support and let them please show your support and let them know we sent you keep your energy know we sent you keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long natural and refreshing all year long with mud water because life's too short with mud water because life's too short for anything less than clean delicious for anything less than clean delicious energy when when i saw initially lift energy when when i saw initially lift off the ground um there there were off the ground um there there were maybe three or four electromagnetic maybe three or four electromagnetic signals generated each second little signals generated each second little just static sparky thing but the thing just static sparky thing but the thing is they were totally random is they were totally random is they were totally random uh there wasn't anything you know if you uh there wasn't anything you know if you uh there wasn't anything you know if you want it to move this way want it to move this way want it to move this way you know there's a bunch of them over here you know there's a bunch of them over here you know there's a bunch of them over here it was moving it was moving it was moving you know when it was moving back and you know when it was moving back and you know when it was moving back and forth sometimes like when it was moving forth sometimes like when it was moving forth sometimes like when it was moving backward i don't believe there were any backward i don't believe there were any backward i don't believe there were any electromagnetic discharges on that end electromagnetic discharges on that end electromagnetic discharges on that end of the craft and i don't think there were of the craft and i don't think there were of the craft and i don't think there were really really really any on the opposite end it was more any on the opposite end it was more any on the opposite end it was more across the top and bottom surface across the top and bottom surface across the top and bottom surface of the vehicle so um of the vehicle so um of the vehicle so um that caused me to immediately believe the that caused me to immediately believe the that caused me to immediately believe the electromagnet electromagnet electromagnet discharges are there but the discharges are there but the discharges are there but the electromagnet discharges are not what is electromagnet discharges are not what is electromagnet discharges are not what is moving this thing moving this thing do you have a sense of what might have do you have a sense of what might have do you have a sense of what might have been moving the thing been moving the thing been moving the thing um it it had to be um it it had to be um it it had to be a force that i was unfamiliar with a force that i was unfamiliar with a force that i was unfamiliar with fascinating okay so fascinating okay so fascinating okay so when this guy next to you is saying it when this guy next to you is saying it when this guy next to you is saying it came from them came from them came from them yeah do you get any more context on that yeah do you get any more context on that yeah do you get any more context on that no uh and here's why um no uh and here's why um no uh and here's why um in in like the next few seconds in in like the next few seconds in in like the next few seconds the three the 12 o'clock position the three the 12 o'clock position the three the 12 o'clock position rose to a 45 degree rose to a 45 degree rose to a 45 degree angle now then that's almost like the angle now then that's almost like the angle now then that's almost like the commander david fravor commander david fravor commander david fravor thing where it's like it goes boop you thing where it's like it goes boop you thing where it's like it goes boop you know yes know yes know yes now then i flew helicopters and i flew now then i flew helicopters and i flew now then i flew helicopters and i flew uh f-16s uh f-16s uh f-16s no vehicle i have ever known of no vehicle i have ever known of no vehicle i have ever known of could obtain a 45 degree angle of attack could obtain a 45 degree angle of attack could obtain a 45 degree angle of attack without moving without moving without moving uh a helicopter will get a 45 degree uh a helicopter will get a 45 degree uh a helicopter will get a 45 degree angle of attack no problem but as soon angle of attack no problem but as soon angle of attack no problem but as soon as you do that you're going to have the as you do that you're going to have the as you do that you're going to have the force force force vector point forward and so vector point forward and so vector point forward and so the rotor is going to move the opposite the rotor is going to move the opposite the rotor is going to move the opposite direction yep direction yep direction yep so so so there's no vehicle that i know of that there's no vehicle that i know of that there's no vehicle that i know of that could obtain could obtain could obtain that 45 degree angle of attack but that 45 degree angle of attack but that 45 degree angle of attack but just then just then just then there was a knock on the window so there was a knock on the window so there was a knock on the window so uh uh uh somebody said hey what's going on in somebody said hey what's going on in somebody said hey what's going on in there that the doors are locked there that the doors are locked there that the doors are locked well man this guy panics he shuts off well man this guy panics he shuts off well man this guy panics he shuts off the computer and the console he looks at the computer and the console he looks at the computer and the console he looks at me and says me and says me and says don't tell anyone i showed you this don't tell anyone i showed you this don't tell anyone i showed you this yeah i'm thinking you just showed me a yeah i'm thinking you just showed me a yeah i'm thinking you just showed me a flying saucer who am i going to tell it flying saucer who am i going to tell it flying saucer who am i going to tell it to to to so uh he goes over and he unlocks the so uh he goes over and he unlocks the so uh he goes over and he unlocks the door door door and this lieutenant colonel came in and and this lieutenant colonel came in and and this lieutenant colonel came in and we were both majors so he outranks us we were both majors so he outranks us we were both majors so he outranks us and then there were two other guys i and then there were two other guys i and then there were two other guys i think they were captains and and so think they were captains and and so think they were captains and and so the lieutenant colonel the lieutenant colonel the lieutenant colonel comes in and says what's going on in here comes in and says what's going on in here comes in and says what's going on in here what are you guys up to what are you guys up to what are you guys up to and so this major is the room just like and so this major is the room just like and so this major is the room just like dedicated to like feeding into dedicated to like feeding into dedicated to like feeding into wherever this yeah ufo is located or wherever this yeah ufo is located or wherever this yeah ufo is located or well well well it's it's a computer it's it's a computer it's it's a computer a set of computer consoles there were a set of computer consoles there were a set of computer consoles there were four people there were four computer four people there were four computer four people there were four computer consoles consoles consoles it didn't look any different from any it didn't look any different from any it didn't look any different from any other four were you in the room alone other four were you in the room alone other four were you in the room alone with the one guy i i was alone with him with the one guy i i was alone with him with the one guy i i was alone with him for a total of maybe 15 minutes yep yep for a total of maybe 15 minutes yep yep for a total of maybe 15 minutes yep yep but as soon as but as soon as but as soon as they knocked on the door and opened it they knocked on the door and opened it they knocked on the door and opened it now there's five of us here but before now there's five of us here but before now there's five of us here but before we get into that we get into that we get into that one final question you have any sense on one final question you have any sense on one final question you have any sense on the location of the craft the location of the craft the location of the craft you know where you're feeding into in you know where you're feeding into in you know where you're feeding into in this no this no this no if i were to guess the lockheed skunk if i were to guess the lockheed skunk if i were to guess the lockheed skunk works would works would works would be one of the tops of the list sure uh be one of the tops of the list sure uh be one of the tops of the list sure uh area 51 would be at the top of the list area 51 would be at the top of the list area 51 would be at the top of the list yeah yeah yeah um uh i i would think uh um uh i i would think uh um uh i i would think uh wright patterson would be at the top of wright patterson would be at the top of wright patterson would be at the top of the list usual suspects it could be the list usual suspects it could be the list usual suspects it could be a different location on cape canaveral a different location on cape canaveral a different location on cape canaveral that i that i that i don't know about and uh don't know about and uh don't know about and uh could have been at the dugway proving could have been at the dugway proving could have been at the dugway proving grounds or twilly out there grounds or twilly out there grounds or twilly out there uh you know i have no idea where it is uh you know i have no idea where it is uh you know i have no idea where it is but it also gave me but it also gave me but it also gave me uh no indications where it was yeah uh no indications where it was yeah uh no indications where it was yeah yeah fascinating yeah fascinating yeah fascinating um wow uh okay so you you everybody um wow uh okay so you you everybody um wow uh okay so you you everybody storms into the room all of a sudden storms into the room all of a sudden storms into the room all of a sudden so who's in the room at this point it's so who's in the room at this point it's so who's in the room at this point it's you so so me yeah the major that showed you so so me yeah the major that showed you so so me yeah the major that showed it to me it to me it to me a lieutenant colonel and i believe it a lieutenant colonel and i believe it a lieutenant colonel and i believe it was two captains was two captains was two captains so the major says so the major says so the major says well i had this skin lesion that i I thought might be cancerous, so I just wanted to show it to the doc, and that's why I closed the door for my privacy. Well, now, everybody turns and looks at me, and I'm sitting there, I just saw a flying saucer. Yeah. I mean, this is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen at this point. But my mind is racing. If there had been any degree of classification that was indicated on that video. In the world of expense management, SAP Concur is here to help. From cost control slipping to travel chaos, SAP Concur has an integrated travel and expense solution to help you overcome problems like overburdened teams, decisions looming. When travel, expense, and AP are connected with a single AI-supported system, you can SAP Concur keeps you ahead of problems. I would have had to immediately report this guy, because if that had showed classified and he showed it to me in an improper fashion, I'm reporting him, but it didn't say classified. So I'm looking at him, and then I'm also thinking, well, this guy couldn't have found out about it unless somebody showed him. Now, if this lieutenant. If this lieutenant colonel showed him, and I report it, then I'm also going to have to report the lieutenant colonel. I'm going to have to go up their chain of command. I'm going to have to go to his commander and say, they showed me a flying saucer video. Now then, if they came back in here and said, well, put it up on the screen, and nobody could find it, nobody could find it, then my story would make me look like an idiot. And. Not only. Not only that, but when I got back to my clinic, I would have to go to my commander and say, Colonel, sir, sorry about that, but I just saw a flying saucer, and I reported it to security and to the chain of command. The general is probably going to hear about it, and then it's probably going to blossom from there with all of the people that are going to hear about this flying saucer. So I'm sitting there thinking, you know, this is a career decision for me. So I just said, it wasn't cancer. Everything's fine. I got up and left. Wow. And I booked it out of there. I got in my car. Thinking on your feet. I drove 30 minutes down to Patrick, and I'm thinking this whole time, and I have heard pilots and astronauts, talk about things they have seen that they failed to report. Well, as I'm driving down Highway A1A, I'm sitting there thinking, man, I'm going to join them. I am not going to report this thing. So what makes you even higher conviction that that's the right thing to do? So obviously, you don't want some big bureaucratic blowup. You don't want this guy to get in trouble, maybe, because he was just trying to impress you, but you also don't want to get, like, you know, kind of drug through the roof. You don't want to get in the mud about, like, what you saw and interrogated and that sort of thing. If I went back and said I saw a flying saucer, I have no idea what it would have done to my career. So, you know, in 1992, you just didn't report flying saucers. It doesn't matter what you see. You can talk about it in the debrief, but when you write the debrief, you're not going to put that in there. Did you get the vibe that the lieutenant colonel or, you know, the captain was saying, Captain, had any sense of, you know, what that room might be feeding into as far as footage of this, you know, UFO? Since the computer screen was off, when they came in, I have no knowledge then or now whether or not they had seen that video. Right. They might have seen it 30 minutes earlier and shown it to the major. Right. I don't know. Does any part of you think that. Do you think that this could have been some sort of elaborate psy-op? If so, it was one of the most random things ever. Right. Because that was the only time I ever went to that building. Yeah. If I had been a little bit quicker in taking off my hair bonnet, my gloves, my lab coat, and my booties, and walked out at the same time. As my escort, I don't think that guy would have even broached the subject. It never would have happened. Hey everyone, Jesse here. Let's talk about something a lot of us quietly deal with, hair loss. This is something that messes with your confidence more than you'd expect. Okay, you might be wondering, Jesse, you clearly don't suffer from this. It's true. The biggest issue I face is hat hair. I actually have very thick hair. But one of my good friends deals with hair loss. So when iRestore sent me their iRestore Elite, I gifted it to him. Okay. And I've been amazed at the results it gave him. The first thing that stood out to him is it's comfortable and easy to use. You just pop it on while reading or working, and it does its thing. This isn't some gimmick. It uses 300 lasers and 200 LEDs to deliver clinically backed red light therapy straight to the scalp. This is the best way to stimulate hair growth. Over the past few weeks, I've seen noticeable improvement with my friend. He says that his hair feels thicker and healthier, and it's improved his overall confidence in life. Okay. So I'm going to give it a go. I'm going to give it a go. You're going to give it a go. but you have a reason to know what's going on and so that tech sergeant is read into a program whereas the major is not so the major may say hey what was that thing you were working with and the tech sergeant says sorry sir uh i can't tell you and and off he goes so the point is seniority doesn't necessitate you know more information in all these cases especially i've you know it's very hard to um shape the contours of you know some covert ufo program but i've heard this many times of people who are superior in rank not being aware of the program and then middle manager types you know being in charge in many cases for security there's two things that you need one of them is a sufficient classification uh that you have been personally granted and the other one is it doesn't matter what your classification is if you don't have a need to know you're not supposed to know that did you ever see that guy again who the major i never saw that guy again and i assure you i never went back to that building wow and since then have you thought about you know i think eg and g is an interesting vector you know they came out of mit doc edgerton you know i think um they formalized as a company in in like the 50s or so come out of the kind of atomic era and are responsible for a lot of interesting kind of you know deep black work for the for the u.s government have you thought about them at all because you know another good example is bob lazar and you know the 80s was you know supposedly stationed at area 51 s4 he gets a job through edward teller but he specifically gets a job with eg and g and eg and g pops up elsewhere in 1997 you have admiral thomas wilson who's head of j2 joint chiefs who is you know under his purview and he's been in the military for a long time and he's been in the military for a long time and his purview is all you know technical capabilities of you know u.s military and he's meeting with dr eric davis and they're in the eg and g parking lot and he's he's he's expressing extreme frustration that he doesn't have oversight over these sort of ufo programs so do you think eg and g might play a part in a ufo story and g is all over the military um for me to guess which contractor had the precedent on which project um i couldn't know but eg and g had their fingerprints all over cape canaveral um they they were the prime contractor um everybody uh functioned with eg and g regardless of the other contractors and what they were doing on the cape that's so fascinating yeah and they were interested also in site research they were doing some really out there stuff on the kind of psionic psychic parapsychology side and then also on the exotic propulsion side they were also in charge of atomic testing and if you think about you know where ufos show up they show up around you know sensitive nuclear sites um one example is i interviewed a guy named harold malmgren i don't know if you're familiar with him but he was a presidential advisor for jfk nixon uh kennedy and ford and um they're sorry he was he was a presidential advisor for jfk lbj nixon and ford and um he was in charge of costing these sort of um you know uh icbm defense systems uh for for uh basically taking out russian icbms and um it was this sort of nuclear detonation combined with this x-ray projection that would take out sort of anything in its vicinity and eg and g was responsible for getting the nuclear detonation done and he was the one who was responsible for getting the nuclear footage of these atomic tests and so uh you know i found that to be very fascinating that that they even they were were involved back then and uh you know that literally the the optical footage around the most sensitive atomic tests where especially if you know um uh nuclear detonation is taking out all the surrounding electronics within you know an emp um you know the the optical footage is going to be really significant especially for spotting anomalous things like ufos so i often think maybe eg and g plays this really important role well on cape canaveral uh it it was this big large facility uh just to get into cape canaveral air force station you had to have a clearance and a need to know so we would have people like three-star generals that are on vacation in florida drive up and say hey i want to come on and take a look at the stuff that's going on and i want to take a look at the stuff that's going on and i want to take a look at the stuff and and so the uh enlisted uh guard at the gate says i'm sorry sir but uh you do not have authorization to enter this facility and they would sometimes argue with them but guess what the uh security guard always won well there were lots of other things on cape canaveral that weren't exactly directly related to the space program hmm but once you put it on cape canaveral it has a very high level of secrecy and if anybody asks uh you know it could i'm not even going to use uh a subject as an example but it could be for project x now then if you put project x in new mexico they're going to wonder what it is if you put project x in new mexico they're going to wonder what it is if you put project x in new mexico they're going to wonder what it is if you put project x in new mexico project x on cape canaveral air force station they can always say oh well it's just related to the space program so uh we had other projects that uh were on cape canaveral but anything anytime someone says cape canaveral they say oh well it's a space program well maybe maybe not but there there were other uh kinds of things that that we had operating that weren't exactly space program related interesting some more kind of exotic science or something okay well i could tell you uh you might know a thing or two more than what you're saying but well i would hope that i knew a few more things than what i say because i shouldn't be talking about everything yeah no for sure so um what made you want to come out so it's been you know what uh almost 25 years um you know since since that event um and you you came out um you know it was a couple months ago now or um yeah um i i retired from the department of defense on the 30th of april and and so on congratulations yes thank you yeah uh i still haven't gotten all my pay straight so uh if anyone in the pay department is listening make sure i get my retirement pay straightened out yeah yeah um he he he won't do any more interviews if you just pay him now i'm just kidding yeah yeah i i don't want to link those two things i'm joking but um on the 4th of may uh josh boswell came out with uh an interview uh from the uk daily mail and then uh ty roberts came up with one for um both the international ufo bureau and also for uh total disclosure he's part of both of those um you know i i need to say that uh i am on the board for the international ufo bureau uh i'm from oklahoma so guess what it's headquartered in oklahoma city so yeah so that comes out very handy were you into ufos before the sighting at all or before before this you know security camera sighting um you have to go back to 1969 i believe it was and when when i read um chariots of the gods by eric von donneken i was hooked yeah i was hooked for life and uh my wife was even more hooked than than i was so uh she she has always been fascinated with all of this would you talk about it on the base with people would you you know express interest in ufos um we would sometimes talk about um things of that sort even though even uh if someone walked into the room and said what were you just talking about we would have said uh baseball yeah um and you don't think you were kind of psychologically profiled and tracked and you were like they were like you know what doc rogers he loves the ufo thing and then you know they they try to show you a thing to corroborate your belief or something um i had no idea i was going to that building that day yep um my eg and g escort knew i was going to uh that building that day but um yeah so could it have been this eg and g coordinated yeah psyop or something but he he would have had to have done something more to make sure that he did not walk out at the same time i did in order for that major to speak with me because that major knew me as a flight sergeant But he would not have known the escort as an EG&G guy. And if we had walked out at the same time, I don't think he would have brought anything to my attention. Yeah, and also, it is a good question, to what end? Like, what do they want from that? You know, it's a. Well, okay, so yeah. You know, the average person, they look up in the sky, they think they see a UFO, they take their camera. Their family comes home. What are they going to do with their family? They're going to show it to everybody they know. That's what we as humans tend to do. And so, wanting to show something unusual to other people is pretty common. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. Often, Occam's razor on a lot of these things is just. When travel, expense, and AP are connected with a single AI-supported solution, SAP Concur keeps you ahead of problems. The human aspects of it. And, like, people talk more than they should. They want to impress other people more than they should. And, you know, it's the human fallibility explains way more than, you know, people want some sort of, you know, super-coordinated PSYOP or whatever, and that's just often not the case. So, okay. So, you know, two decades plus go by. You retire. And what makes you want to come and speak out about this? Okay, well, first of all, everything changed in 2017 when the New York Times article came out and I saw the videos, you know, having known pilots for so many years. It wasn't just what they were looking at. Even if I had not seen what they were looking at, when I heard the tone of the voices of these pilots as they're talking back and forth to each other, like, wow, did you see that? They're not watching anything ordinary. No. I would recognize from their voice, oh, my goodness, they are seeing something they have never seen in their life. Because you've probably heard audio, tons of audio from pilots. Well, I've flown with pilots. Yeah. So, you know, if we're in a formation and all of a sudden, you know, some strange things happen, you know, we talk about it one time. Have you ever seen a UFO in the air? Any pilots? No, I haven't. Okay. But as an example of something that happens, I was in a Blackhawk flying in Germany and we were flying low level, which meant that as we came over the hill, we were supposed to be within 25 feet above ground level, AGL. And so we had come over this hill and was going down into the valley and then there was. There was a hill on the other side and this was the last hill before you get to the Rhine River Valley. And just on the other side, there was an air defense artillery battery. Well, this F-4 Phantom that was using anti-radar missiles, harm missiles, and was performing this kind of stuff was not supposed to be in this area. It was supposed to be in this airspace. But he came screaming down this valley at probably 400 knots. Well, we're just coming down and he flies between us and the ground and then he books it up into there because he knew, man, he just nearly died. Well, the problem is we just nearly died too. His jet wash hit us and blew us up and rotated us. And so now we're across the valley and we are still getting a downward movement because of the pressure that his aircraft made. Well, on this side, the hill is coming up. So we deviate to try to gain as much air as possible. So we can't go straight. We go right into the mountain. So we bank as hard as we can. And when we get up to right here, there was a road. And so they have 100-foot-high trees there. But where the road was, it was clear. And so we passed that road at probably about 5-foot AGL. If there was a car, we would have hit it. But the trees are coming up on both sides. And so we went between the trees climbing up. Jesus. We nearly died because of what that F-4 pilot had done. Now, as soon as we get up, I'll include this because it's funny from my standpoint. As soon as we climbed, we were not staying low level anymore. We were putting some air under us. And I made the comment, gentlemen, I want you to know my flight suit is dry. And the crew chief said, well, Doc, I sure wish I could say it. He had voided his blackout. But the thing is, as soon as we got back to the base, we're telling everybody this story. Well, it didn't involve anybody else. There was really nothing to do. But it was an interesting story, so we were telling it. So, yeah, that sounds like a close call. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's been several times that God was looking out for me or we wouldn't have made it. Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating. And so, okay, so you. Okay. 25 years later, you see this article come out in the New York Times. You see three Pentagon videos getting, you know, kind of released that are unidentified by definition. And that sort of emboldens you to start to think about maybe. Yes. At that time, I spoke to a gentleman that I respect very greatly. I don't want to mention his name. But if I mention his name, boy, would you know who he was. Why do you want to mention his name? I had. You know, I'm getting dinged from people all over the place since I came out. I'm not going to dump on somebody else. Okay. You know, anyway, I talked to him for quite a while. And then the real impetus was when David Grush testified. Yeah. And he gave all of this expert testimony and then said, I know that we have reverse-engineered craft. I just don't have anyone who will come out and say it in this setting. Well, as I watched the video multiple times, I thought, you know, I've got his 6 o'clock covered. You know, he said, no one's come out and told their story. Well, if I come out, you know, David is exposed because no one will say that they saw a reverse-engineered craft. So you wanted to back him up. So, you know, I can't confirm all of the other stuff he did. But when. And then some of the. The government officials said, we have never had a craft like that in our inventory. And I was sitting there saying, what are you talking about? I saw it. So I decided, you know, when I retire, I'm going to tell my story, whether they like it or not. And next time David Grush speaks, he can say, look, not only do I know that there are reverse-engineered, but I know that I know that there are reverse-engineered, Dr. Greg Rogers testified to it. Well, he's definitely the tip of the spear, I think, in a lot of people's opinion. You know, he's provided, you know, hundreds of pages to the, you know, Inspector General of the Intelligence Community, Thomas Monheim, to the effect that there are covert reverse-engineering programs. He's, you know, on C-SPAN talking to, you know, AOC, who's saying, do you have the locations of, you know, where these crafts are being reverse-engineered? And he says, yes, I have the addresses, and I will give them to you if you just get me into a skiff. So I think that's kind of a bold, you know, flag to plant, right? If, you know, if you weren't being honest. And I think, so I think, I think, you know, all of his colleagues say that, you know, he's beyond reproach and, you know, all have good things to say about him. He was national judge. Geospatial Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, Air Force Space i think maybe just air force i don't know about space force actually but um you know and i've gotten to know him pretty well and i you know he's just autistic attention to detail literally because he's level one autism so um well uh that that would be me as well you have level one autism too yeah along with ptsd oh wow in the i've i've written a book since um i went out to uh contact in the desert because so many people were saying you've got to tell these stories so um i've i've written a book what's the book um to be really ingenious i decided to call it we got it from them and is it about ufos yeah it's about ufos but it also contains additional stories from my background because i want non-military people to sort of feel like what a military career is composed of yeah and um between each section i i tell a different one of my stories and right before the final chapter um i just came right out and said i have ptsd uh lots and lots of ptsd writers uh air force marines uh have this and too many people see it as something that you've got to hide that uh you can't admit what's going on um so i i wanted to spend one whole section trying to convince people look if you have ptsd get help yeah uh here here here are things that that can help you but um you know with with the way people treat whistleblowers if if i have ptsd someone's going to bring it out in a negative way so i might as well beat him to the punch and just say look we're good for you well that happened to david gresh it's crazy but they um they basically they basically leaked his medical records from the i guess the the uh police department locally in virginia uh leaked this you know um uh call that he had because you know he one of his friends was mortared right next to him another friend committed suicide due to his own ptsd he was an afghanistan combat veteran and he had suffered from he talks about it in this interview i do with him where he uh talks about doing you know heart rate variability breath work and other things to to to really you know uh reintegrate so i i admire your courage for uh for talking about this and i think you're right to to say it prophylactically because i can't tell you how many other whistleblowers i've broken who are in my opinion are sort of war heroes things they tell me off air really impressive things they've gone through and then people just go after their core credential they don't even go after the experience they go after their you know they act like they weren't like this one guy like wasn't a green beret or something it's like crazy it's like you know i know he was well you can have ptsd by um survivor's remorse um there was one guy when i was a very young doctor who was in vietnam and and they were in a firefight and so they were trying to keep suppressive cover down and he had emptied his m16 and so he uh put the next magazine in he was just hesitating because man they're taking fire from everywhere well his sort of battle buddy guy was still firing next to him and he paused in instead of immediately returning fire and while he paused his best friend got hit and killed and so for the rest of his life he felt like if i had given suppression fire my buddy wouldn't have died and so um uh i i talked to him uh a number of times but his family would say you're a hero and people would say all this kind of stuff and yet in his mind he wasn't a hero his buddy died because he hesitated he was the least thing of a hero in his own mind that it could be because his buddy had died because he paused before returning fire and that was something that that guy was going to live with the rest of his life yeah i could see that eating away at you more than something having happened to you directly so uh broadly is the source of your ptsd just seeing all these people in the medical context or is it well it's it's all kinds of things sort of the one thing that sort of stands out as a story was that uh we had an aircraft mishap where um one of our pilots died and so i had to go and um collect um urine samples from him uh blood samples from him uh i had to gather up the rest of his body and try to um get as much of his body together uh as as we could before we were able to ship it off for an autopsy and so uh this was out in the field environment and so i got back to my tent because a bunch of people saw what happened so i had to counsel all of these other people so i spent the whole afternoon counseling these people and doing my job as a flight surgeon to prepare for the aircraft mishap investigation that that was going to come out of this because every time an aircraft crashes we try to find the details so that we can prevent the next one so i finally got back to um my gp medium which is a general purpose tent and uh as as i sit down on my cot uh one of my medics says um captain rogers how bad was it and i said as bad as you can imagine uh i mean um you know uh i picked up parts of his body 130 yards away and you know i and and so i was giving her just a few details and all of a sudden she looked and she said uh captain rogers i don't know how to tell you this but it looks like part of his brain is on your boot oh so i looked down and i said oh yeah it is so i picked up part of his brain and we had a potbelly stove to keep us warm and i just tossed it into that potbelly stove for me the very next moment there was a hand on my shoulder and it was my um staff sergeant who is my ncoic and he said come on doc uh we got to get some breakfast head over to third attack and i said what are you talking about it's the middle of the night he said no it's uh oh five fifty three uh we we need to get moving and so he didn't realize what had happened to me i didn't realize what i happened uh but i i got up and and went and i got some breakfast went over to the third attack battalion aid station and did all of the stuff i was supposed to do because the the man who died was from third attack and so uh late that day i finally saw my medic and i said hey do you remember talking to me uh early this morning she said oh oh yeah and i said do you remember telling me that part of his brain was on my boot and she said yes sir i said and i took it and i put it in the potbelly stove and she said yes sir and i said what did i do then and she said well you just sat there i tried to talk to you but um you weren't responding so i i just uh got back in my sleeping bag and went to sleep i had lost more than more than four hours that i can't account for jesus you went into some sort of catatonic yeah state or something yeah and um needless to say there there have been times that i have relived these issues in my dreams yeah and and i've got lots of other stories yeah but they're not all good stories yeah um and you can't undo it you can't undo a story like that yeah you know this was one of my one of my friends i had done this flight physical two weeks before we went out there damn and now i'm taking part of his brain and throwing it in a potbelly stove yeah so tell me how that's how that's going to get fixed yeah you can't fix that no you can't you can't do so i've got other stories like that that i don't want to go into it i'm sorry man well we're all here for you. I really appreciate you, uh, you know, having the courage to come out. And, uh, like you said, you have David Grush's six o'clock position. I think it's very cool, uh, that you're doing this and, uh, and that you're being so open and sharing about your, your, your PTSD, um, which is in no way related to, you know, the, the, your, your, your testimony, which people should realize, you know, um, if you were to blanket discount, you know, people with PTSD, you'd be like discounting half the military. Well, you know, a lot of people don't realize it, but we have archeological evidence that goes all the way back to the Spartans. And there was a doctor that had written a treatise back then. And, uh, that treatise fit every category of PTSD now. And so, even the ancient Spartans who we think of, they were the greatest fighters. No, they, they were humans and they still had PTSD back then. Absolutely. I mean, you can't, I think you can't be human and, and you, you see these things, of course, you're going to dissociate somewhat and you're going to, you know, repress these like extreme feelings. And if you don't have those extreme feelings, there's something else kind of off with you around, you know, maybe sociopathy or something. If you, if you're very close with a person and you see, that bad happened to them, you know, especially if you're sensitive, you know, like, uh, well, I think Grush is another good example where he's, he's a, you could tell he's a, he's a sensitive guy. Uh, you're going to, you're going to store a lot. You're going to pick up a lot and you have to, you know, like the electrostatic discharge on the craft, you need to, you need to discharge that somehow, or it's going to, it's going to kind of eat at you. So, um, I admire you being open about all of this. I think it's, I think. Google Chrome. You think, you know, a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online. Makes sense. There's no place like Chrome check responses, set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. It's awesome. And, uh, nothing at all to be ashamed about. If anything, it, you know, we should be honoring you for having. Served our country for so long. So, uh, appreciate you. Well, um, I look back at the friends of mine who, who died and I think, no, those are the real heroes. Um, you know, sometimes it's very hard for people with survival guilt to accept somebody saying something good to them because, um, you know, in, in one circumstance, I was working on a good friend of mine and I could not save his life and he died. Um, I did not feel like a hero after that. Yeah, but that's par for the course with your job. You're not going to have a hundred percent success rate and you're going to have cases where no human could ever save them. So I think you, uh, you can't be too hard on yourself. And I think just the fact that you're not going to have a hundred percent success rate, the fact that you were fulfilling that role, which is one that I think most people would be too, too afraid to even, you know, do, I think is a really amazing, you know, testament. And we don't know what happens when you die. So, you know, I always think that sometimes it's like, it's such a tragedy when, when people pass onto the other side, but they could be, they could be, they could be watching over you right now and so proud of what you're doing and really happy, you know, we don't know. As a doctor. As a doctor, I can assure you there are worse things than dying. Yeah. I do not want to have 99% of my body burned and me survive totally in total agony. I do not want my brain to survive my body. I don't want my body to survive my brain. I've seen both and they're not pretty. They're not pretty. Yeah. No, that sounds like a purgatory, like you're walking around thinking, you know, that's, that's, that's probably the worst. I agree. Well, I do want you to know, I think you're, yeah, you did the Lord's work and you have nothing, nothing to be, you know, regretful about. Well, God drives everything in the universe. You know, science cannot disprove God because God made science. You know, one of the things that used to bug me when, when I was a kid and I was reading Genesis, it said that evening and the morning were the first day. And during the first day, God said, let there be light. Okay. So there's the light. Then it said the evening and the morning were the second day. Well, hold a second. There was light in the first day. Where did the light go that it got dark again? Mm. The sun wasn't formed. It wasn't, the earth just turned the opposite direction. Well, the thing is, I never had an explanation for that until I learned about the cosmic microwave background. And then when you understand the cosmic microwave background, you understand this is exactly what happened. At the time of the big bang, the temperatures in the early universe were so hot that the sun was not formed. And then when you understand the cosmic microwave background, you understand that all you had was plasma. You, it was so hot that no proton could hook onto an electron because it would break apart because there was so much energy. So, uh, for 3,000, 380,000 years, there was an orange light that filled the universe and, and it was this plasma. But at 380,000 years after the big bang, the sun was not formed. And then when you understand it finally cooled enough that for the first time, the proton could grab an electron and boom, you've got a hydrogen atom. It's 380,000 years, 380,000 years. That's amazing. But once one proton could grab an electron, so could the other proton and the other proton. And so within a very short time, we went from, you know, we went from, you know, we went from the first time to the this plasma filled universe to, um, the first atoms that were made and the universe was completely clear. Yeah. But there was no light because until enough of these protons with the hydrogen atom got together and they started accumulating using electrostatic forces and, uh, gravity, they finally made us such a big mass of all of these atoms that gravitational force compressed them. And boom, you, you have the first generation star. And so light returned to the universe. And that's the light of the second day. So you have the light of the big bang, and then you have no light until you get this hydrogen formation up until a star, and then you get light back. And so it matches with the Bible. I like that. I would say, you know, I believe in God. Um, but I would say that, uh, our cosmological models of the universe are just super limited. And so I don't even know if the big bang is a thing. And the reason I say that is the James Webb telescope is now picking up all these early galaxies that were far earlier than we ever thought galaxies formed. And basically if they exist in proportion to what was found in this little section of the universe, um, then they might better explain the cosmic microwave background than the actual big bang itself. And so my, my larger kind of point is like, we just, we just need a lot of epistemic humility around cosmological models. Like I think physics has a scaling problem. So if you have anomalies at low scale, we were talking about, you know, alternative propulsion, like the Casimir effect or Byfield Brown, like these, these things that like we don't, we can't explain, you know, simply through general relativity or quantum mechanics. If you have any sort of anomalies at low scale, which of course we do, because at any given time in history, you have anomalies in your physical models of reality. And that's, then they get updated. Then it's like your rocket is one degree off course. And so when you try to scale it to a cosmological model, you have this sort of error propagation and you're like way off. And then you have to come up with placeholders like dark matter, which is this glue, which explains gravity, gravity's weakness or cosmic inflation, which is sort of the expansion of the universe, where if you were to ask a physicist, what fund, what fundamental force is represented in cosmic inflation, they wouldn't have an answer for you. They'd say some sort of repulsive form of gravity, they'd say anti-gravity. And so you end up, I think in like a, you know, this crazy kind of hyperspace, like just trying to make the math work to comport with our human, very limited epistemology. There are all these issues with the cosmological constant. I mean, we could go on for for for a long time as far as issues with cosmology so i think none of that you can't use science to discount god because i mean the the universe is just so miraculous and the earth is somewhere you have the planks constant you know if it were slightly different you know we wouldn't have an atmosphere right and there's so many examples like that so i don't know what do you think well the the single biggest problem is that if you don't have god everything has to happen randomly but the universe isn't random um how much do you know about chirality i know a little bit about it okay well um chirality means that there is something that is going to occur um um um um um um in in which you you can have one version and you can have the opposite version if you take the carbon of the methane molecule and you have four hydrogen molecules and let's just say 12 3 6 and if you decide to make a methyl chloride and you take a chlorine atom and put it at the three o'clock position the composition is ch3cl but now then if you take this the chlorine and you put it at this at the nine o'clock model instead of the three o'clock model the chemical formula is exactly the same but if you shine if you if you shine polarized light through that if it's at the nine o'clock position it's going to turn the polarized light to the right if it's at the if the chlorine is at the three o'clock position it's going to turn it to the left so you have a left-handed methyl chloride and a right-handed methyl chloride now it seems like there shouldn't be a difference the biologic systems will only function with one of those options yeah glucose there's a there's a left-handed glucose and a right-handed glucose but the right-handed glucose is the only glucose that's going to turn it to the left-handed glucose that any plant will make that any animal will consume that any protoplasm will be able to manufacture energy from so it's not 50 50 what what is happening is that i put this in a book years ago the case for god if you take a nickel and you flip it 50 50 chances coming up heads so it comes down to 50 50 chances coming up heads so it comes down to 50 50 chances coming up heads so you flip it again comes up heads again so you you say hey i'm going to vegas uh i'm going to find um a casino where i can flip a nickel and uh bet on it so you you put five dollars down you flip it comes up heads you got ten dollars you flip it again you got twenty dollars you flip it again you've got forty dollars by the time you flip it you flip it again you flip it again you flip this thing twenty times and it came up heads every time the casino is visiting you because you have a nickel that has been fixed it has been altered and so it is not a 50 50 chance it's 100 and zero percent and when you look at the chirality throughout the universe there are all of these multiple multiple multiple times when there should be a 50 50 reaction and it's 100 and zero percent yeah and and so if you are trying to explain this randomly you don't have a real good case if you say there is a god who knows how to fix a nickel so that it comes up heads every time very simple explanation yeah and there there are rational explanations basically for god and then there are rational explanations for pure randomness and i i think the very fact that our world is so kind of you know this anthropic principle another good example would be water and and ice where normally the the um you know solid version of a molecular structure is heavier uh and and and more dense than uh the liquid version of that structure and in the case of h2o because hydrogen and oxygen have to happen to when they bond they have to bond and freeze they form these perfect crystal lattice structures they're actually less dense than water and so you end up basically where you with this thing where like ice can float on water and if that weren't the case the earth would flood a million times over so you have this kind of anthropic principle around that planks constant the weak electro kind of you know you know that's that's anthropic all of these things if they're you know the gravitational constant if it is slightly off you know the earth would not be habitable as as we kind of know it and then you get into physics principles like heisenberg's uncertainty principle where if you you're only measuring you know a position and momentum one gets fuzzier as the other gets more accurate and that sounds that looks a lot like kind of a computational caching function and so you end up with this model where there's they're really rational ways to actually explain god you have even like in vogue today is nick bostrom and like you know elon musk saying we live in a simulation well it's like who simulated us like you know god you know you know god is a sort of a you know placeholder that you know it's very hard to know exactly what that is but um you know for a lot of people who don't have sort of a gnostic you know felt sense of god but on the other side i don't i don't i don't know if the other side is more rational is all i'm saying i think there's like a lot of really interesting data points that point you towards you know we live in a you know creative intelligent universe um yeah go for it um you know when albert einstein created the special theory of relativity people argued with him and um you know they argued with him so much between that and general relativity that even though einstein won a nobel prize it wasn't for relativity because too many people still argued about that no sure he won it for the photoelectric effect special relativity they were not going to give einstein the credit he needed for relative general relativity was known as a novel curiosity until 1957 and that's when you know guys like now like kip thorne will they call it the golden age of general relativity basically post einstein where he gets resuscitated and you know turned into this you know uh modern genius who explains everything kind of cosmologically but before that it was this kind of modern genius who explained everything kind of cosmologically but before that it was this kind of novel curiosity that was not at all established physics it wasn't established physics but it was in the bible general relativity general relativity so you've got this jesus jesus said that with god a thousand years is a day in a thousand and a day is a thousand years no i think it's peter sorry but at the time that was an element of belief they had no reason to believe it but they were going to believe it believe it now then when you take scientists today i'm not one of them but there are scientists who can calculate for 24 hours to pass on earth an astronaut would have to be traveling at this speed close to the speed of light in order for them to see a thousand years and this guy to see 24 hours it's not a belief anymore it's an equation well it's another another good example of that is um one of my favorite lines is in the book of mark and i am uh i'm going to paraphrase here but it's something like careful what you measure because what you measure you'll get more of yes and it's this very you know seeking you shall find sort of you know yes comment and i am really interested in this field of parapsychology this idea you know like where your attentional sensor is pointed you will receive more of that thing and every time you get more of that thing you get more of that thing you get more of that thing everybody if you were to pull them and they're open to this somewhat a lot of people high percentage of people will say that empirically that happens in their life that like you know they think about a thing and then it just pops and they think about a friend and they the friend calls them you know that sort of thing um and so i think there's a lot of deep truth to the bible that again people discount they say it was like you know a bunch of bullshit you know paranormal magic tricks or something and i don't think that's right i think there's some real there's some deep ontological truth that it's pointing at well there there's truth all over the world as well you know um when you look at the vedic texts they're talking about the manas now then at the time those were the strangest things ever but they described like an arrow that when it was shot it would guide itself to through the air until it hit its target hmm if If you were watching an F-22. Fighting MiG-29, and they fire a heat-seeking air-to-air missile. That missile's going to guide itself until it hits its target. Totally. So this was a description in the Vedic texts thousands of years ago. Or what about the Vimanas, which describe literally UFOs with spinning mercury inside? Which then get later—I mean, you have a famous UFO whistleblower named Edgar Fouché, claimed to be at Area 51, and he was working on the—or I think he was aware of the TR-3A and B series from Northrop Grumman, and it involves spinning mercury. And so who knows? But I've had in your chair a Senate staffer for the intelligence community, Kirk McConnell, bring this up to me. So you don't have to trust me, crazy podcaster or whatever. Like, he brought this up both in the context of Die Glocke, this German bell, which is, I think, no longer fictional. We know there was something there. There's literally like a rig, a picture of a rig there. And Nick Cook has done all this interesting investigation into anti-gravity research mid-century, has gone in there. And so, you know, Die Glocke probably existed, and there's supposed to be spinning mercury there. And then you have Edgar Fouché saying later in the TR-3A and B series, you had spinning mercury. And then the Vimanas, spinning mercury. I don't know. But, you know, you can take some of the models of so-called birds from South America. And if you show them to American grade school kids, they're going to look at them and say, those are airplanes. Why? Because they look like airplanes. Now, then these things are thousands of years old. Why do they look like airplanes? Could it be because they were airplanes? You know, we're not nearly as smart as we think we are. I agree. Also, if a cataclysm were to occur, you'd have no idea. It would be so buried. You know, they're talking about like something happened. I mean, we have very, very little record of the dinosaurs, and they were wiped out, you know, 66 million years ago. So if you could have a civilization, you know, you could have this. You could have this sort of S-curve thing with civilizational cycles and cataclysms. And it'd be hard to know until you first discover the thing. You know, right now, civilization is getting older progressively. Every, call it 30 or 40 years, we find, oh, now we have Gobekli Tepe. Oh, actually, Gobekli Tepe isn't the earliest, you know, megalithic site. So I just think our understanding of the past, as you're implying. It is extremely limited. And there's actually, you know, all sorts. There's a forbidden archaeology where you have, like, the Antik Thera mechanism, which is a little computer with astronomical alignments found, you know, in the, I think, the Aegean or the, you know. Yeah, and it's undeniable. Yeah, it's undeniable. No, that is a fact, yeah. So you get an accumulation of these things, and it's like, well, maybe our understanding of our past is just way off. So fascinating. So one thing I want to, you know, getting back to the core case is it is interesting with the a lot of these testimonies where you flip one switch, and you could explain what you saw not by them because maybe that was just told the major and maybe the major related to you, but it could be explained by just a terrestrial, equally exciting, but anti-gravity line of aerospace. And we were talking off air before the show about the Bifield-Brown effect and, like, you know, exotic propulsion. Do you think that it's possible? That what you saw was actually maybe just some extremely exciting human propulsion breakthrough? I think that what I saw was human-built. Why we would design it that way, I could not prove one way or the other, but knowing aerospace as I do, because I dealt with rockets, I dealt with the space shuttle, I dealt with I dealt with F-16s, I dealt with H-1 attack helicopters, there is nothing that would be advantageous aerodynamically for us to build that. And for somebody to go off on a crazy tangent and say, I'm going to build this even though it's not aerodynamic and it doesn't show any basic advantage. I think it's a little nuts, too. And for context for the audience, the 80s was really the stealth revolution. So you have the F-117 coming out in the early 80s, and then you have the B-2 coming out in the late 80s. And obviously the B-2 had probably been around for a little bit longer, but, like, billions of dollars were being spent on these, you know, programs. And that was really. That was really kind of the state of the art. And it is hard to believe. You know, America did have a flying saucer program proven, nobody would argue, with the Avro car. So the Avro car was in the 50s and 60s, and it was at Wright Airfield, and you had. But that was a joke. Kind of a joke, but the point is, is that you had a radial gas flowing turbine engine, but you had all these issues aerodynamically with it. It couldn't get out of ground effect. That's the same thing that happened. Even with Vanguard. It had this sort of Kiwanda effect, wobbly thing going on. Well, with helicopters, when we fly helicopters, when we are moving forward, if you go fast enough, you will finally ground effect, and you'll go into translational lift. And then you will ascend. But if you're having trouble with your engine, you want to stay close to the ground, because the force. The force of the rotor wash hitting the ground gives you the equivalent of additional lift until you lose it and you lose ground effect. I do find it interesting that right when Wright Airfield is working on the Avro car, they're also sponsoring this conference with the top theoretical physics research in the country at UNC Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina. And the guy who's running University of North Carolina's Institute of Field Physics with this guy, Bryce DeWitt, one of the top theoretical physicists in the world at the time, was a guy named Agnew Bonson. And he had in his diaries that were found years later, it was, the Space Brothers came to me and said, get me in touch with Townsend Brown, because I want to build a spaceship. And so I wonder, you have this Avro car project. It's kind of a joke. It's not really working. But you have a dedicated theoretical physics group, you know, under this guy, Josh Goldberg at Wright Airfield. And then they're sponsoring elite, you know, theoretical work on the subject. And then the same guy who's, you know, basically like, you know, being a benefactor, being sponsored by Wright Airfield is also hiring Townsend Brown, who probably made all these interesting updates in, you know, the world of, you know, anti-gravity propulsion. And then you have to ask yourself the question. And, you know, could we make that much progress in 20 years? And I don't know the answer to that. Well, I, with what you just said, I always think of Penn and Teller. I love to watch Penn and Teller. And one of the things they've, they always talk about magic. When they say the magic is over here, you know, the magic is really over here. This is where they're wanting you to focus. So that you're not paying attention over here. Exactly. That's right. Well, that's what I think now is the Avro car was probably a cover for something deep because all the rumors are that the Roswell craft was taken to Wright Airfield. And so you had this, yeah, kind of, you know. Distraction of like kind of this joke of a thing, the Avro car. And then you have like more serious stuff going on. But I think they use the Avro car as a front to get specific Nazi scientists. Like there's this guy, Richard Mita, who went and worked for the Avro car in Canada, which, you know, before it moved to Wright-Patt. It was in Canada under the guy named John Frost. And John Frost, who ran the Avro car project on behalf of, I think, British Aircraft. It was like British Aircraft and CIA. co-running this thing, he was going out to recruit all these secret nazi scientists who had worked under hans kammler people like you know he went to try to recruit victor schauberger and they end up sort of stealing his work um but yeah meet uh this other guy henry kawanda which the kawanda effect is named after is we know was a consultant um for project y which is what you know uh the abracar project turned into is y and silver bug so i think they were using it as like a funnel where it's like this is a joke we're not making progress let's get all these nazi scientists to work on these things but i think there was something very vital underneath all of it that was actually happening and the crazy thing about your testimony you're talking about the craft being charged i've heard that a couple of times apparently um this one uh first-hand witness who claimed to work on a craft at right airfield that was retrieved in the aztec recovery in 1948 in march in new york he uh uh he says that the the the craft was like hooked up to these like extremely high power transformers and it would go translucent when it got powered up so that's interesting and then there are a couple of other you know people who say similar things like that like you know a ton of power needs to be sort of mainlined into the craft and so it's probably limited by its by its power source like townsend brown was always looking for a power source and it was always you know going to be this kind of nuclear power source like possibly cold fusion like a low energy nuclear reaction or something but but before you get that before you get the cold fusion you have to pump it full of megavolt range electricity well uh i i think one of the things that people don't really seem to grasp in general is that you have to pump it full of to take baby steps before you take big steps. And so recovering a craft in 47, well, okay, you have all the details to it, but you can't make it. An example that I like to use is the F-22. If we took an F-22 fighter in our day, which is the most advanced air-to-air platform that we have, and we take it back to 1914, and we say, okay, U.S. engineers, we want the United States to have the best aircraft that'll shoot anything out of the sky, you can win the war with it, and all of this stuff. And then they go look at it, and they say, why does the skin feel so funny? Oh, well, that's radar absorbent material. Well, what's radar? Oh, well, it's a radio wave that you bounce off. And according to how long it takes to get back, you can find the range and distance for it. And they say, well, where's the propeller? All of our aircraft are made out of wood. With a propeller, I don't see any wood, and I don't see a propeller. Are you sure this thing flies? Even though this is only 100 years of human technology, those 1914 engineers could not begin to understand the F-22, much less rebuild it. If we can do this in 100 years of human technology, what would happen in 10,000 years of non-human technology? How far behind would we be? You know, Leonardo da Vinci was alive. There were four elements in the universe, water, fire, air, and what am I thinking? Earth. Earth. And they believed those were the four elements. If you asked any scientist at that time, that would be their answer. Now then, if you said, what do you think about quantum theory? They'd say, what are you even talking about? Well, atoms are not the smallest things. You can have quarks, and you can have gluons. You have to decide whether or not they're going to be bosons or fermions. And bosons will always have a whole number factor of the Planck constant. And they're going to say, what are you talking about? Now then, these would be the smartest, most brilliant people. And they think they know what physics is all about. But they're totally and completely off base. So what do you think these beings are that have these crafts that fly that maybe gift us their craft? Well, if our star is less than. Less than five billion years old. But there was another star in our same galaxy that is six billion years old. And the life formation followed a similar pathway to us. Their physics is one million years ahead of us. And they're going to look at our physics and say, look, they're still fighting with string theory. Mm-hmm. What's wrong with these idiots? Mm-hmm. You know, they think to go into space, you have to have a chemical rocket to go in space. You know, no wonder they can't go anywhere. What appears to be magic can be nothing more than advanced technology. And we are so proud of everything we've learned. But we were so proud of what we learned in 1850. And we thought we knew a lot in 1850. Maxwell hadn't even come out with his laws yet. If you go to 1600, you know. Well, that's what they're saying with electromagnetism is we know all the known laws in the universe. Electromagnetism explains it all. We're at the end of history. And this was immediately pre-Max Planck and, you know, quanta and the whole quantum revolution. Right up until we. Until we were proven completely wrong. Yep. Yeah, totally. No, it's. You always will go do well if you bet against the current physical model of reality. Yes. You always do well. You'll always. If you bet against the house, if you bet against the Neil deGrasse Tysons of your time, you will always make money. Yeah. Because those people are always going to be wrong. It's such hubris to say we are at the end of history and we know everything. That's insane. Or even to say that we are just rounding out the final, you know, margins. Like, you know, there are little errors that, you know, we just have to correct for and then we're finished. That's never how it works. It always. The next paradigm completely upends our understanding of things. If you have a really terrible shot with a pistol, if you stand 100 yards directly in front of them, the safest place to be is where they're aiming. Because they're always going to miss. So you don't know where they're going to miss. But if you're a lousy shot with a pistol at 100 yards, you're not going to hit anybody. Yep. Yeah, it's a great way to put it. Yeah. So that's why I think, I don't know, I worry about institutions, which have become increasingly closed-minded. And they used to kind of foster real intellectual heterodoxy and open-mindedness. And I think they are. They've become increasingly like, you know, you have to toe the party line. And if you don't, you know, you're out. So I would go kind of long individuals and short institutions over the next, you know, 10 years. I think in many ways, we might have a. We might be in a sort of melt-up in the markets, you know, just around AI and stuff. But ultimately, we're, you know, we're probably in this sort of recession already or bear market. And then the only thing we have a bull market in right now is ideas. Like, we're in a crazy kind of. We're in a crazy kind of ideas bull market. And so that's kind of exciting. But there can be times when we can't tell the difference between good ideas and bad ideas. In 1972, when they were first planning the space shuttle, they said, well, what happens when it lands in California and we have to get it back to the launch site in Florida? So they thought, well, we could put on a train and have a special route for that. Well, we could put it on a boat and bring it through the Panama Canal. Well, there was this one low-level scientist that said, what if we put it on the back of a 747? And they said, shut up. The real people are talking here. So they keep going through all this stuff. And then finally, one of the big guys says, we could put it on the back of a 747 and fly it back. And they said, what a great idea. That's wonderful. And this guy said, I said that four weeks ago. But yeah, well, no one was listening to you. we're listening to this guy because because he's big time yeah well it's so much of science is social proof and herd like and you expect it to be the most immune from herd like thinking but an example i always like is like you know who the first person who you know discovered that we live in a solar system that revolves around the sun and not the earth is do you know um i would think it was one of the greek philosophers so that's that's amazing because most people would say copernicus you know 16th century pre-galileo you know actually observing it and in fact it was one of the greek philosophers this guy aristarchus yeah well one of these guys um was able to take a stick put it in the ground and measure um the distance and do the mathematics and he estimated the entire length around the world and and he was like within three percent whoa who is this i i i don't remember but um you know it's i'm sure you could that's so cool but because he studied you know the shadow of a stick you're pretty smart yeah i feel like you're you're pretty self-taught and all these sort of you know physics and astronomy and it's impressive well think of that guy how smart did he have to be well that's the thing it's like i think a lot of you know this sort of modern version of intelligence is just it's like you have like adornments in a in your hat or something you know a cap in your feather or whatever but but um you could say a bunch of shit that makes you sound smart but like so much of real intelligence should just be like childlike thinking about the universe like forgetting all priors and almost being not super socialized so that there's you're not just adhering to the fashionable ideas of the time and just really thinking about things and kind of a you know this is an overused term but like a first principles way like seeing things for what they are that's a very rare thing there was there was a a greek inventor that uh made a a circle a sphere and had one little spigot sticking out one side one little spigot sticking out the other if you put water in it and heat it it becomes a spinning um a spinning wheel from uh the steam it it's essentially a steam engine and everybody thought hey that's a cute joke now then if he had just taken a chain and hooked that up to a chariot as the steam toy goes around it turns the in the world of expense management sap concur is here to help from cost control slipping to travel chaos sap concur has an integrated travel and expense solution to help you overcome problems like overburdened teams decisions looming when travel expense and ap are connected with a single ai supported solution sap concur keeps you ahead of problems visit concur.com to learn more chain all of a sudden we've got the industrial revolution that 1800 years or 1800 years earlier you could have radical breaks and junctures in reality it's almost like technology is like timeline hopping or something like if you create something you know i think about this with um the steampunk revolution you know where you know it's like uh william gibson sci-fi novels is like this alternative you know second industrial revolution where we weren't using gas engines and we were just using you know steam or whatever and like they're different to i don't know like the semiconductor that's somewhat arbitrary what if we had like some sort of biological computation or something we're programming little like rat neurons and like that's how we were that that's a whole computational tech tree you know outside of silicon and so it is it's so interesting how uh we just get routed in these different and sometimes it's a cul-de-sac like string theory where it's like i don't think that's going anywhere you know we got to figure out something new it's fascinating well as i said we're never as smart as we think we are and every time we have a major breakthrough when we look on the other side we say well now that we did this we're going to need a couple more major breakthroughs up there because uh what we see ahead so um even einstein when when he came up with this miracle year in 1905 he was feeling really good in 1906 but he wasn't feeling so good in uh 1917 when he couldn't prove his general relativity theory and of all people it would take an enemy of germany um eddington uh to um do the the work on capturing the deviation of a star around the sun during an eclipse to prove that albert einstein was correct totally and even then it wasn't fully accepted and he also was a foundational player in quantum mechanics he really helped establish it people don't really give him credit for that part of his work but he had all sorts of issues with quantum mechanics as this kind of ontological framework and he has debates with neils bohr in the copenhagen school about what you know this meant and what what entanglement meant and how it was even possible you know even though he was kind of responsible for a lot of early entanglement work epr you know that's einstein yeah uh dolsky and rosen so um well what did he get his nobel prize in photoelectric effect yeah a photon of light he he received his nobel prize for a quantum theory yes and his general relativity never got a nobel prize and the photoelectric effect even when he discovered it in 1905 hadn't been experimentally proven it was just a theory um and then it was later experimentally proven but um yeah obviously the photoelectric effect just had a you know in some ways i don't know i'd be curious if somebody were to like you know do it do research on this but whether general relativity or special relativity has had a greater impact on our reality because the photoelectric effect you wouldn't have like a tv right like it's like literally just light and its interaction with like metal surfaces and that's pretty key to like everything even a lot of quantum mechanics and then general relativity you know that feels to me again i'm a physics idiot but like feels a little more important for like cosmology and then like i think we're kind of off on a lot of cosmological stuff so and it's kind of put a governor on propulsion you know where it's like you know uh the speed of light is just the speed limit it's the global speed limit so i wonder if um maybe maybe maybe actually the nobel prize committee back then you know knew what it was doing or something like that i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know well um bose the mathematician from india uh he was writing really great um lectures and he sent one to albert einstein said nobody's listening to me and he said well i'll put my name on it and then they'll listen and and so uh you know bosons are named after bose um uh so uh uh you know it's just crazy that this guy that nobody believed from india that no one would pay attention to as soon as albert einstein puts his name on it oh you're brilliant yeah right up until albert einstein said you're brilliant you were stupid right yeah we're we're very uh memetic we we like what other people like and if they're of high stature then all of a sudden that's this like really important stamp of approval and so um yeah well where do you think disclosure is headed do you think we'll get some exciting you know uh revelation near term do you think it'll stay in this sort of liminal space of some people believing others not or what do you think i think this simple biggest problem is bureaucratic inertia it takes somebody who is really strong in their beliefs to step out from the group of people who are all agreeing how smart they are and and say listen y'all are smart but you're you're not smart about this one thing and so you have to have the other people agree that yes what you're talking about is true before the the entire group will finally begin to act as though it's true i i believe that we are to a point that realistically we don't need to prove that uap are real we have plenty of evidence that uap are real but as long as we're still fighting the battle uap are real we're missing the bigger battle which is what are we going to do with it and so we need to stop fighting over whether it's real, because it is real. So now we need to figure out what on earth are we going to do with it? You know, that guy came up, what do you think we should do with it? I think we need to release a large part of the information being from the military. I know that if I have an advantage, you know, if I'm flying an F-16 and I have an advantage over another jet, I'm not going to tell you what my advantage is. However, there are so many elements of what UAPs mean to humans, to technology, that I think it is a very important thing to do. And I think it is a very important thing to do. And I think it is a very Subtitles by the Amara.org community