‘Narnia: The Magician’s Nephew’ Trailer, ‘Slow Horses’ S6E5, and ‘East of Eden’ E5-7. Plus, ‘Girls’ Is Coming Back!

(upbeat music) - I need supports to have to clear the room. - Stand up and walk now. - Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com and joining me in a new studio. He gets to find out what happened to Baby Grover. It's Andy Greenwald! - Look at us back to the city where it all began. - Girls is back. - Yeah. - See you are and Andy back in New York City. Thanks to you for making the time to come visit me here. - You're visiting me here too. You weren't here today. - Sure, that's true. Greenwald and I are coming live from New York. It's a Wednesday when we're recording, but we'll put this out on Thursday. A couple other housekeeping notes. - Okay, do that first. - So what we're gonna do today is some news at the top. Girls, the land trailer, that Nardia trailer. We're gonna talk about the end of East of Eden in the most recent episode of Slow Horses. The penultimate one of the sixth season. Everybody's probably thinking to themselves, "Damn dog, you're not talking about the low down season two. "You're not talking about vision quest season one. "We will, you just gotta bear with us. "When you have takes this hot, this intellectually rigorous, "sometimes you gotta let the sourdough rise." - That's beautiful. I wish your sourdough started doing. It's been six years, I think. - I've had vision quest, I've had vision just sort of monitoring the situation. - Yeah, and I think we'll have a special guest on Monday show, as well as some news and notes and stuff like that. But we are going to rest assured. We are gonna get to low down vision quest. There's a lot of stuff flying around. Carrie, many people are saying, "I thought you were boycotting." - I don't know if I publicly said that. - Well, okay. - Yeah, I thought you were avoiding. - Here's my thing with Carrie. I'll just say that my priors are that I don't want to watch what happens in Carrie take place over eight hours. I thought it was executed perfectly. And Brian De Palma's rather brief film. - Oh, I thought it was about the sheriff in Rushville of the recent HBO series Lanterns. - I'm going to check out Carrie. I want to watch it. It's spooky season after all. How are you doing? How are you enjoying New York City? - It's great. We're back to, are we still calling it Indian Summer? Is that okay? - I don't think so. - Okay, Indigenous Summer. It's beautiful. Sun is out. - You know, it's great to be in this part of town too. Lower Manhattan, like high in the sky. If Sean McDermott could see us now. No, I mean. - You see what? You mentioned the NFL, we're going to get to girls, but I want to ask you about the land, the land trailer. So for folks that don't know, this is a new show that has been within a Hollywood. Pretty hotly tipped. I think that there's a fair amount of hype around this show. So it comes from Dan Fogelman who's done paradise and this is us and is one of the last purveyors. I would say of massive mainstream entertainment that still has some kind of, I think appeal to people who maybe watch a prestigious television as well. He is the great crossover, current crossover artist. - That's right. - And this show is about two families. Both one owns the Cleveland Browns and one works within the Cleveland Browns organization. - Yeah. - It is made with the participation of the NFL. - Shocking. - So full logos, no any given Sunday or dark night rises style. What team is this that I'm watching as Bane blows up the stadium, you know? Which is really important to me because I care about for a similitude. - I know. You understood that Heinz Ward only wore one uniform throughout his career. - Yeah. - And it was of the Gotham city gofers or whatever. - Bane Orange. And they just dropped the trailer. The show comes out in February. And this is just something I've had my eye on because I think sometimes you can see someone whether or not this was in development during Landman or during any other kind of shows that I feel like it's rooted in or it takes its cues from. I feel like this is a big effort on the part of Hulu and Disney to get into that sweet sweet Sheridan zone, you know? - Of like appealing to the Hollywood. - Yeah, appealing to everybody, man. Who doesn't like football? Who doesn't like a dad with a complicated relationship with his son or a dad with a complicated relationship with his daughters? The cast is pretty packed. William H. Macy plays the aging owner of the Browns. Mandy Moore plays one of his daughters. I believe Chloe Bennett is also one of his daughters and they're grappling with who's gonna get to take over from dad. - Is this Carly or say vibes? - Man, imagine speaking to it. - Bottle F of just Mandy Moore following Christopher Lonear around. - Yeah, just with their own one place. - Listening out of headset. - Lonear plays the coach. I think Omar Epps is like, I'm guessing the OC based on what I'm seeing, baby. - Do you think is he calling plays from the booth like Sean Manchin or is he-- - That's what I was wondering. I mean, he is up there. Chase Crawford is in this and the trailer came with a pretty penny Led Zeppelin needle drop. - Well, it's not the only one. - Oh no, wait. - It was Narnia. - Sorry, this came with the Erasmith. - Yeah, but they were both like, okay. - Yeah. - Rock is back. You guys spent some money on this. What do you think of this trailer? - I would say that we've come a long way. Well, it makes me think we've come a long way because the last full on NFL show was ESPN's lone foray into scripted television playmakers. Which we talk, didn't we talk about that with Mina at the live show a couple of years ago? - Yeah. - And playmakers was a Mina's live show. - Yes. - You and I never done a live show. - No, no, no. For reasons that-- - We're like Steely Dan. It's better this way. - I can't reveal the lower half of my body publicly. I only exist. - It's too gym-sharked out. - Yes. - You just have a fin down there. - They give you the gym just really alarming calves. The issue with playmakers was, you know, it was very ahead of its time in that it was like quite salacious and there was drug use on these teams and there was, you know, stuff about CTE. And the NFL was not into one of its partners saying anything sideways about football. - Yes, ESPN took that note. - They took it aggressively and did the show. I think that this is either a sign of the leagues understanding that basically it is a juggernaut and nothing is going to stop love of football or discourse about football in this country. Or we may end up with a kind of, you know, uncanny valley show where, you know, the main problem is these characters don't love tackling enough and it improves their health and acuity, you know. It's unclear, but it really is jarring for people of our age to see a fictional show use real teams. - Nothing makes you a better father than playing center on a team that does the push, you know. I'm curious what it is about the Cleveland Browns organization that lends itself to these forays into filmmaking. 'Cause the draft day was also about the Cleveland Browns. - I think it's all for one moment that's in the trailer. And I didn't actually write down the dialogue, but there is a moment where William H. Macy says, "How am I going to get us out "from underneath these terrible decisions?" And I feel like it's just kind of a Dishon Watson's egg to be like, "Oh, what was the decision? "Who can say what the decision was, "but look at my beautiful daughters "leading us into the future?" - Do you think this show will come with any of Dan Fogelman's signature timeline hopping? - Hmm. Oh, so you think we might go back-- - Well, this is what famously has, you know, goes back and forth, and obviously Paradise does a lot of flashing back and flashing forward. - Do you think there is a version of, do we go back to a moment when, like, William H. Macy, so William H. Macy in this version, right? Is it, was Al Lerner was the guy who like, brought the Browns back? Was he the first owner of the new Browns? - I can't remember. Yes. - Because the Browns fled Cleveland in the night. - Yeah. - Oh no, yes, right. - Our model, right? - Yes, our model moved the team, right? - Indianapolis or Baltimore? - Baltimore. - Baltimore, yeah. - And then became the Ravens because the Colts, what happened to the, what happened to the, oh, the Colts went to Indianapolis. - Yeah, Baltimore Colts went to Indianapolis. Cleveland went to Baltimore. - Yes, and Cleveland immediately started again. - We got a new team with Tim Couch, I believe was their first strike. - Well, he went some Ulysses. - Exactly. - We mostly lose them, I think. So the time shenanigans makes me wonder, like, is in this timeline that the, - Is Tim Couch like four times Super Bowl winner? - Or did they draft Donovan McNabb, you know? And so we lose no matter what. But like, is this on a timeline where the Browns never left Cleveland? - Or, I mean, is there, are they like trying, or do we like flash forward to like 2035? And the Browns have won three titles, but then it's like, how did they get here? And you know? - Okay, Coach. - Steve Bellicic, probably. - Desperately, what, the problem is this? This looks like a smart play. It looks star-studded and Fogelman is a guy that grabs you and makes the storylines that make you wanna keep hitting next, even if you find it slightly preposterous. So I have no reservations on that front, but as we're talking about it, my desire for this to be more like Paradise, where it's actually about like a time-revved Ted coach who has one more chance to avert the apocalypse if Cleveland becomes good and does the sabotage. - The Browns are like the only human team playing against a team of Claude. - Yeah. - They don't show much in terms of on-fuel action, right? So it's possible. But is this set in the same, okay. - Now I've got your wheel spinning. - I'm really spinning. Like, there's a Kevin Hart commercial that's airing right now, I believe, in which he is, is in the Philadelphia Eagles huddle, right? And the Eagles jerseys are represented, but it's all made up players. - Is it for like a gambling? - I wanna be clear. I watched a lot of NFL on mute during my travel the other day, so I actually don't know and maybe I dreamed it. But like, is that the Eagles in the land universe, by these extras? - That would be interesting. It's like, what stars are gonna be on in these other teams? - Let's stay focused. Here's the main reason why I think you wanna talk about this. - You have made quite a pretty penny being the Umbudsman for sports on camera. - Yeah, I mean, I just-- - Actually, you've made nothing, but you do it for the love of the game. - Sure, and I take my cues from my boss, Bill Simmons, who wants to be the sports czar, and he's always like, just ask me, I'll tell you if it's a good idea. - He didn't weigh in on the Lanterns offensive line debacle. - He hasn't watched Lanterns. I got that feeling. - Because-- - He has watched all of Kerry, though. - Oh, interesting. Any sports in that? Anything happened in a gymnasium that he wanted to weigh in on? - Go ahead, so are we gonna say that? - Well, no, so are you anticipating lots of content for this, in the sense that if they are trying to show a team playing, like a Sean McVeigh, wide zone run scheme, are you there to diagram it and say-- - I do wonder given the action that we saw in the field, whether or not the land cameras have been filming actual NFL action. Not necessarily that Packer's Browns game that's in the trailer, but-- - Right. - I do wonder whether or not can you get away with getting Chase Crawford on a sideline for like two minutes filming him and be like, oh, interesting, like-- - I mean, our team just has a guy who protects the coach and wears an Italian flag on his hat on the sideline. - It is a big live-- - Yeah, and-- - Big Dom, Big Dom, the damn, yeah. - He's on our team twice. It feels good, man. - My point is you get-- - So this is the Dom is like, he's a dem, Big Dom, the security chief of the Philadelphia Eagles was spotted at like a Democratic fundraiser just weekend. - Yeah. - I don't know how he feels about Shane Gillis' monologue, though. That's where everything gets kind of distilled down to, right? - Can't we reach across the aisle for that? - Yeah. - The aisle of Studio 8H? Like, come on. Okay, so are you in, where are you? - I'm curious, I'm very, I'm very curious. I think for some times like what I like about the Taylor shows generally is there is 22% batshit crazy no notes, like whiteboard writing and the dialogue can sometimes be so nuts that I find that that gets me over whatever hump I have of what is this episode about? Like, why are we doing this? If it's gonna be just straight faced, like dad, you need to let me be the quarterback of the Browns, no son, you're not ready yet. - So like the Sanders household. - Yeah, basically, basically. I, yeah, I mean, I'm glad it's not a Taylor shared in show because if if this were a Taylor shared in show, it would be entirely about William H. Macy, pounding Michelabaltras and talking to other owners about how the players don't understand how hard his job is. - Yes. - And then like one player is like, leg would explode and he'd be like, God dammit, that's my money bleeding out there. And that would be the show. - Yeah, not as good. - Not as good. What will be good is the fact that girls is coming back. It was announced yesterday that I believe after what is it like a 10 year break? - 10 years. - 10 years since we last had girls. Lena Dunham is bringing her series back for I believe a five episode limited event. - Yes. - Most of the cast was announced as returning, including Dunham, Ms. Hannah, Alice and Williams' Marney. Jemima Kirk, as Jessa, she was phoning in from the set of a Woody Allen movie for that introductory zoom that they had. And Zoshamama as Shoshona. Additionally, it looks like Randall's is back. Andrew Randall's will play Elijah. - He had a square on the fun zoom. - Adam Driver, Benzoloam not there. - No, but Soterberg has worked up a way to get him back into the girls canon. If only Casey Blois had the courage. - He wants to get a baby grover into the order of 66, so far it's too late. Did you read, did you read Famesick, Lena Dunham's memoir? - I didn't. - I didn't either, but everyone had worked it though today and was talking about this. And the takeaway was that book doesn't say that girls is coming back, but it is written in a way that would not give any of the people who are on that zoom reason, not to do it. And basically makes it clear. I mean, I think we could all assume. - When you say that, do you mean it doesn't, it's very loving towards the, those four, the other three girls, now perhaps women and Andrew Randall. - Do you think they'll call it women? - I don't. I don't. What would Shane Gillis call it? But that-- - He just said it's comedy. - But that Adam Driver and Lena's former creative partner, Jenny Conner, would likely not be invited. - Probably not, to the three. - If I had to guess. - Now, I will zag and say, I'm not mad about the driver thing, no, 'cause I don't love him as an actor and think his character was great. But when this is pitched as saying, Lena had a story to tell, specific five episodes, we're gonna shoot in the summer like we used to do it and we're gonna tell this story. It makes me think that this has a little more pep and it step than say a Frazier or Scrubs reboot, which is really a reboot. So-- - Those scrubs is actually doing quite well. - No, I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying that the mission for that, which is delightful to the people who are fan to that show is more of the same place. And I like the idea that they might pick up, having recaled with both changes in the characters over the course of the first run of the show, but also maybe they've lived lives for 10 years and likely are not still hanging out with the same toxic boy friends or whomever. - It's a tribute to the flexibility of the premise of girls, which is just for kind of friends in various states. - Increasingly not friends. - I think towards the end, right? So Shosh was not really down with them. - Marnie was kind of like-- - Marnie was rooming back in, right, and then what's her face? Jessa was like hooking up with Adam Driver, but-- - That was happening. - Yeah, but not maybe in a relationship with him. - You got some rewatching to do, bro. - I do, I have to get back into it to the late period. You know, we've seen a bunch of shows come back over the last 10 years. Many of them driven by online fan campaigns. - And-- - You'll more girls, Veronica Mars. - And then there are the wish fulfillment things, like bring back community or bring back, you know, we got our party down season, we got Veronica Mars came back once I thought, not so successfully, once I thought quite successfully. Sometimes with those shows, it's like, would these guys all be still caterers, you know? It's been a minute. - I mean, they addressed it, but I can't say that that, but I will say, I don't think we ever weighed in on the party down reboot, but I think that it lacks some lustre. - And I felt like part of that reason was the demand for it was greater than the inspiration, maybe. - Yes, and I think some of the-- - I wouldn't say that necessarily specifically about that, but I would be like, sometimes that happens. - And some of the fondness for that show, for example, was like the Adam Scott Lizzie Kaplan relationship and then Lizzie Kaplan was unavailable for the reboot. So you sort of lose one of the special ingredients that made it pop. - Was that like she was doing the Taffy Brothers or actor? - I think she was, I think she was. Yeah, I think she was doing. - So I have high hopes for girls because-- - Do you refer to East of Eden as that John Steinbeck show? Like, do you only go by others? - I honestly forgot what it was called. - I know. - Did you remember? - Fleshmen isn't trouble. - There you go. But not anymore. He was fine. - Yeah, he was okay with it. - He was released at the end. - My sense is, my sense is never wrong about these things. But my sense is that that show has grown in estimation a little bit or restored some of its fondness for it has grown in time. And I think in my own limited revisits of it, like that was one of the shows that we did for the Stick to Landing Amanda and I recorded it. And rewatching it, I gotta say, my number one takeaway was all of the discourse stuff was gone from my mind when I was watching it. And what I watched was a really clever comedy. Like, it was really funny in ways that I think got buried under the avalanche of takes at the time. And it was naughty and bumpy and messy. And it wasn't really that good at being a quote-unquote TV show, which was also part of the charm. And I think that the idea of Lena saying, I have a story to tell for five episodes, I think structure is gonna help. - I wonder if New York will be the setting. - Look where we are sitting right now. - I know what he's not the same. - She doesn't live here anymore, right? - She, like, all of us with good sense lives in London. - Yeah. - Do you think there's gonna be a scene of her just like walking, like me last week, walking by the Goanis Canal being like, what the fuck? This is where they used to throw handguns. And now there's like a bike lane. It's trying to be Copenhagen. How are you doing with bike lanes here? - I'm doing all right. - Gonna keep your head on a swivel. - Well, it's not the bikes, it's the e-bikes. - Yeah, sure. - You know what I mean? Like, I think I can dodge a dude peddling with his child in the front, you know what I mean? - But not somebody who's coming 45 miles per hour in the wrong direction. - Yeah, because the Chick-fil-A order is late and the other Chick-fil-A order is still coming. Like, that's the vibe. - This was not an official announcement, but it kind of became one or became a semi-official one. It's long been rumored that Nicholas Cage is joining True Detective season five, which Isle Lopez is back for this one and that there would be some sort of New York City or New York City adjacent setting for this season. And then it kind of went into the ether. Nicholas Cage made a New York Comic Con appearance this past week and kind of let it slip that he was ramping up True Detective. of stuff. So it sounds like that is also just just I'm noting this because as HBO moves into the Skydance family of yeah of networks and studios uh one of the big things that's important to Skydance that that they emphasized to everybody is IP and yes they are taking care of their HBO IP here. Yes I mean it's it is I I do believe John Snow loading you know what I mean? Well I it well that movie announcement like I do believe uh I take casey it as word when he talks about putting the creative first and he's not going to make a show if there's not a reason to make it I do believe that sure but like we were talking about his sort of his his cany moves behind the scenes to be the inevitable choice to be running the streaming television wing of the Skydance corporation having a lot of identifiable properties percolating so that if they are if they do get the good script if they do get the right star they can announce them like that's just good business for when someone comes and takes a look at you know when David Elleson toured the lot or whatever before this took was taken over and you got sort of a peek under the hood it was very very advantageous for them that was his number honestly though from what we understand about him that might be true sure you know I mean he's just a guy who thinks the way women dress in the gym is you know questionable but the way girls are on TV is good he contains multitudes so that was it for HBO stuff as a father of daughters I wanted to ask you about thank you um Narnia colon the magicians nephew uh the new film from Greta Gerwig coming right uh I believe it's early February 27 and yeah and Netflix is giving it a theatrical yes it was supposed to be a this year thing I believe right and it's got its first trailer I now we famously had a moment on this podcast several years ago let me own it go ahead I have learned not to judge Greta Gerwig projects by their first trailers yeah I will own that I believe I said the words this Barbie film will never make a dime at the box office I don't think you went that far but you were like wolf you you you did like he has like the pound it's like dog incoming I went after it these but I'm accountable for my take sure yeah I wanted to give you a it seems I was wrong on that yeah history has decided now are you gonna play brewers ball here and say maybe this looks good but I can't say for sure and are you the Dodgers in this analogy just crushing me with inevitability I'm uh was not blown away by this okay are you in with take a step I don't know anything about it no me either I believe it was read to me as a young child CS Lewis by whom my father okay good yeah you left that this lion that was up in my room there's a cabinet and I kept opening it uh I believe this was read to me but I have no attachment to it and um vaguely understood yeah what was happening in the trailer but and I knew aslan or aslan is the lion yeah I mean so I can talk on this did you just say you never read it no but because I do the work for this podcast okay I did a little research okay um googled around a little bit um yeah I know nothing about Narnia who's that lion to some lions and witches there's a wardrobe um and a some fabulous wardrobe on view in the trailer um the Narnia books began this is kind of only put in terms you'll understand it's kind of like lonesome dove in that the most famous book came first in terms of publication but then later there were prequels written yeah and so this is like doesn't walk this is yes this is the first book chronologically but it was written a decade after the line the witch in the world and the older character professor character in the line the witch in the wardrobe is the kid in this one and this this this one god damn it this one kind of suggests the creation you're so wise of Narnia yeah like there are many magical worlds and they're in one and then there's like a witch or a princess and she becomes the witch and the other ones and okay here in Hines voice which lives rent-free in my head anyway because of sand and recently yeah he's just absolutely he slays the Samuel Hamilton he's out in salinas eating and I don't mean lettuce just that that sweet sweet lettuce he he is the voice of the young boy in the future uh do you know who's the voice of the lion yeah real street yeah say it uh as long speak on it uh I just know that they they they didn't give us full lion no and I do wonder sometimes with these incredibly VFX heavy yeah uh movies whether or not like the trailers always do them justice because I think you don't like I got to show what we've got so far but a lot of times I think the final product winds up looking a little bit better I'll say I'm glad you're saying this delicately like I I don't I'm not gonna judge the movie on this trailer I've learned from that I will say that the parts set in our more recognizable world of 1900 London I think it's been updated to the 50s now really yeah I think she did that honestly London you know pre-Canary Wharf you know before those great glass towers it's it kind of looked the same for a long time yeah that stuff looked great and Carrie Mulligan is in that stuff and it looks beautiful and like the you know the movie stars doing quirky things Daniel Craig looking good at this costume looks look schoolless when they go into the magical worlds I got to say I founded kind of boring because all magical worlds kind of look the same and the idea of kids going into oh magic is real like I mean I've I've just spent many years of my life working on showing like magic is real a question yeah what's your number one magical world wow okay huh what do you define as a magical world let's you know I would say personally for me in terms of just movies not like in books and stuff I'd probably go middle earth I know you have that thing from middle earth I have that thing for Peter Jackson's movies yeah and I dig it is that a magical world it's pretty close to yeah you know there's wizards in it what do you mean it's magic but is it magical because like there's a you know a waterfall of gumdrops or whatever oh like a Willy Wonka world yeah my magical world is broad street after the Eagles won the superbowl 2024 that's my magical world you know fireworks in your pants and just just every light pole near my parents of barbing greets within an inch of its life no I mean it and they and they licensed stairway to heaven for this which apparently is not been done like they don't like the the remaining zeps don't let that out lightly so clearly we're making this an event and Greta Gerwig just continues to surprise with every movie she makes so it'll be interesting if the if the the meta a of this is she's doing a contemporary big budget CGI adult yeah adventure so what is she so what's the special sauce that elevates it in the past it's been her it's been her point of view it's been the way she writes characters um and so we're not going to get that in a trailer that is aimed at the widest possible audience so we'll see but it was a I would say it was a strange look because I maybe this is foolish of me but I expected something that looked I expected a more visually surprising experience we'll keep our eye on Narnia that is what we as men nearing the end of their 40s should do just monitoring the situation in Narnia from from behind these wardrobe door from just peering through if you will on these children in their magical world so for everybody listening this is spoilers for this week's fifth episode of the 60s and of slow horses that's certainly turning the temperature up on the on the pot on the stove waiting it to a boil if you will I will when I mentioned earlier in the year that I put my hand up and said I did binge these screeners so I couldn't help myself I talked about how I felt like this was the most brutal season of of the show so far yeah and part of that was related to co but part of it was related to the fight that we see in this episode and you know in the opening moments yeah like there have been uh there have been scuffles you know in in slow horses and there have been famous kind of kills and funny set pieces but just felt very bare-knuckled and dangerous and I think that that is something that I feel has been brought to the show has been heightened in this the show this year is the possibility that nobody is safe that this is really getting we're in London this is this is territorial pushing by the Russians obviously and I think in the Kyle Solar and forgive me for not knowing the uh the woman assassin's name um their characters they're like sharks man the actress his name is Maiana Burring to please Jane and Kyle Solar famously Cyril on and or please Jim yeah I mean I think I don't I don't know the plot of the books I've heard chatter that that that this that this series is diverging more than others have in the telling of it it's combining it's combining too but that it's not even the parts that are drawn from one particular aren't as accurate as they have been it not accurate as as um faithful faithful um but I do feel like there's a lot of credit to begin with to your point has to go to Macaron in the novel because it is a it is a challenge to make something feel stacey when your books are about rejects who don't get within sniffing distance of the real shit so the fact that there's this I think frankly brilliant construction of their the wrong list was leaked and so the wrong agents are being hunted and then the person who whose name was intentionally leaked is someone with this deep connection to River and everything. It's just, it's a beautiful construction that puts these characters who are not fit for major leagues on the field. And the brutality of that scene was also, again, it's like, it's how you set up the dominoes at the start, where other than Co, who was good at fighting, apparently not good enough, Sid and River are the most park-worthy agents that have ever been in Slohouse, right? And so putting them in the role of people who have to actually do this stuff made sense. But again, there was, I think, the way that the season has made the Jim and Jane figures feel inevitable in a real like T-1000 sort of way was really, really effective, and yet it's still slow horses. So when the confrontation finally comes, it is by a river, sorry, it's by a lake side, that, I mean, anyone who's driven in England, it isn't from there when there's a sign that says, area of unnatural beauty or of like, of outstanding natural appearance, it's so formal. And Jane says that in the episode. So it's like, it's still slow horses in it. Yeah, and then, and then Mick Jagger started singing after they drown a man. Well, he fights for his life. - Do you feel like you have your hands around the Sid plot line? - In terms of where her allegiance is liar, whether she really did something or should-- - Yeah, I thought like her phone call and her experience with Diana and this was really cool because it gives a little bit of a peak, usually outside of the slow horses, we really only get the dogs in terms of other elements of the park and other elements of the service. And this was a depiction of a working spy taking orders. Now, obviously, she has some misgivings about what is happening after a while. But her being offered up to Russia as basically a make-good, but would be bargained for shortly after. Not only is it just like Diana's got a lot of debt, she's paying off right now. But it was also like an indication that not everyone treats this job with the cynicism that the horses do. - What the show is done with this season with Kristen Scott Thomas and the Taverner characters pretty astonishing because as we've said week to week, the show works, man. Like, it just knows how to be itself and everybody plays a role and doesn't break character. And there's a lot of fun to be had by just shuffling the deck every season and putting them in different groupings. I didn't, what's the shack meme? I was unfamiliar with your game. - I was unfamiliar with your game, yeah. - I genuinely did not think that the show had the fortitude to say a character that we have seen through one lens actually has no bottom. Like that there is a different moral calculus for someone in the big chair. And we'll see it through because one of the things about this episode in her confrontation like in her secret hearing, she does not back down and she makes a case that I would imagine that in these rooms are in more serious spy shows we hear people make all the time and is not too dissimilar from what I would imagine a Jackson Lamb might say in a similar role if you're ever showered and cleaned off and sobered up and promoted to do it. So the fact that it is both like willing to put her there and then keep her there and hang her there and not turn it into, well, she's the big bad now. Now we have to get her. I mean, maybe that's forthcoming but I'm not sure that it is. And because of that ambiguity, we get another classic Kristen Gary Banger while he's going through her gift basket of the two of them playing off of each other. - That Kristen Gary dynamic is really cool because we have seen multiple people in the first chair corrupt themselves and Diana's had plenty of time to observe and kind of see what to do and what not to do. And she almost can't help herself. She takes this quote unquote investment and as Jackson says, like now they own you. If you can't take money and just be like, that's just a donation to national security. But Jackson has that luxury because he is not exposed in any way and not playing in like real stakes anymore. And so I feel like the show subtly is asking questions about what comes with responsibility in a very cool way. There's also something that's been really interesting about spy shows recently, which I think is directly tied to headlines in real newspapers and developments in the real world, which is the rise of private corporations or non-nation state actors as major players, if not outright villains in these stories. So in certainly in lioness, in this series of slow horses, and to some extent in the agency, you see extra governmental bodies popping up and being like, well, we're, we're, we've got at least the financial muscle to compete. - Yeah. - And you know, maybe you can try as with slow horses. You can chart that back to government investment from somebody somewhere. - Well, I mean, think about it. Even today we're recording on a Wednesday and one of the headlines is about how Elon Musk has like - Turned off the internet. - Turned off the internet. - Yeah. And like, that's insane. That is insane that one real life super villain can just do stuff like that. - Yeah. - And he's in the headlines along with whatever Russia and the United States are doing. So it is paying attention to it. - It's fucking crazy that like a guy can do like, regardless of the fact that he did do it, it is, it's crazy that like one guy is like, nope, I'm out. 'Cause Ukraine also, I mean, if we're gonna do it, we do it. - Ukraine also bombed some like bot farms in Russia. - Yeah, so what do you, we do the wind horse fingers. What are you trying to say? Say it. - I just know that my, my engagements never, never been higher. - Your fans are reaching out across social. - Come out. - I'm definitely more enthusiastic because as I've said, I think the season is exceptional and it's exceptional for the sharpness of the writing and the elevation of the stakes. And the, you know, like the first time that Hugo Weaving's "Harkness" character was on the show, he was fine, but he was kind of mustache twerly. Like, ah, there's a big, bad origin story. - It's pretty game spires, yeah. - Now like the fact that we don't really know what he's doing is a win that he's just another figure on the game board really sorted out. Similarly, like as cool as "Slowhouse" in the rain is, they're all out of it. So everyone is at play where at previous seasons, some characters have been stuck there feeling phone calls or being bored or being grounded by jacks and like everyone is in the field the way that's really fun. I don't know if that's repeatable, but it is really exceptional. And I'll just say like, you know, I had dinner with a friend who works in the TV business and spends all of her life making shows, reading scripts, watching shows, all of it. And the thing she said about "Slowhouse" is that stuck with me, which really speaks to not just how exceptional this season is, but how unique the show is and one of the reasons why it is overrepresented at the Emmys every year is, she's like, it's the one show I look forward to and I don't look at my phone. It is pleasure. It is just dialed in on how to engage you in a way that feels as old fashioned as the pit is. I'm not going to be tempted. I want to watch this. I'm looking forward to that. - Yeah, they also have like this skeleton key of, just when you start to like go beyond missing it to, oh yeah, "Slowhouse" is, it comes back. - That said, if there's one criticism, but I'll save it, it's not really, it's more of a light concern trolling. Six episodes, it's incredibly successful for their production model. But I do, I guess I find myself wishing for a "Slowhouse" a season that broke out of the rhythm of the six episodes just because of the way. - Like the case of the season kind of thing? - Not just the case of the season, but the cadence of the episodes, I think do match pretty closely season to season. I like the season more. I like the story more. - That is true. - But the way the fourth episode into the fifth into the sixth tend to go feels very familiar, which is probably part of the special process. - There's a lot of patience and there's a lot of like, this is a novel convention, a novel with like, of piece of fiction convention where once it's time, it's go time, people become incredibly candid and they're like, I've always wanted to own a piece of an intelligence service or whatever, you know? - Among us, yeah. Speaking of adaptations, let's wrap up our thoughts on in her interview with Allison Davis in "Vulture" so because Anne talked a little bit very briefly about having originally plotted this out as eight episodes. And it was reduced to seven, I imagine, for a bunch of reasons or what have you. - Yeah. - I think you can feel that a bit in the "Callen Aaron" stuff, which I, maybe in the beginning of our conversations about used to be mentioned as like in my mind, being the main characters of the novel. And I think that was recency bias of like, that's what I most remember from the novel because they are the latter two thirds of the book or the latter third of the book or what have you. - And also the James Dean of it, right? Like isn't that? - Yeah. I mean, certainly that Cal character has been sort of made an icon by Dean's performance in this show. I think the chess pieces get moved around a little bit. Not only do you have Kathy and a much more penetrating psychological investigation into like, what makes Kathy Kathy and not merely saying she is a product of original sin. She is like a primordial dark ooze coming out of the ground. But she is somebody who may have been sexually abused as a young child has definitely always been taken advantage of by men and has turned that around into this. Um, pretty evil vibe that she gives off, especially when she's wearing all black and is rocked out of her mind on morphine. That is a wild aura that she's walking down the street is it? Yeah. Um, also came to the wrong state if you wanted to avoid sunlight here. Uh, this last couple of episodes also introduces a non book convention, which is Mike face Charles. Yes. Character as a, uh, devil on the shoulder of, of sort of, um, manifestation of Kathy subconscious and, um, I would just say that like working backwards from the very end and we're going to spoil the last few episodes of, of east of Eden now if that matters to you, um, I was incredibly moved by the very ending. Yeah. And, uh, there were about half a dozen things that happened in this show that I felt like we're pretty breathtaking. Um, whom least performance, Caroline's performance, take your pick of a dozen Florence pew moments. Yeah, I thought Abbott was really good in a very, very, very hard role. Uh, Adam Trask ages quite a bit goes through an old man's life early in his life and then it has a youth in his middle age and then becomes. That's goals, honestly, but, but it's like a beautiful character and he's able to give it some real life and some real sadness and sorrow. I know this might sound odd, but like when we've talked in the past about what makes genre movies, fantasy movies, comic, comic book movies successful historically. It's often casting Shakespearean trained British actors to deliver the monologues of nonsense, like in Ian McKellen or something. So it just grounds it in some reality because these actors are used to taking. To them, I'm sure he's done Shakespeare in his time, but there is such a, uh, sort of subtle power in his plane spokenness and the simplicity. I'm sure not on the internally, but the external performance is very, very straightforward and plane spoken and it gathers power across the hours to me like, I'm sure he's not going to be able to do that. Or across the hours to me like something like a snowball rolling down a hill so that at the end when he is voiceless, it's almost incomprehensibly intense and powerful. It is a really unique performance. I thought that, uh, what did you think of the kids who end up playing Callan Aaron in that storyline? So this is Joseph Zada and, um, and another child of one of our, one of our friends, Kate Winslet's son. That's right. That's how I think of that. Sorry. That's just how I think of her. But do you do know her or something else? That, uh, Joe Anders, Joe Anders. Yeah. And Joe Anders was in, um, Cape Fear. Yeah. Uh, recently as well. I thought they're really good. I thought they're really interesting. I think I'm with you in the sense that I don't know whether it's TV brain or, um, the way that the story was broken across seven episodes that sometimes I had trouble shifting, like shifting from characters to characters as to who we're paying attention to and why I mean it is a unique challenge that I think they did a remarkable job with considering. Of introducing these characters as babies, casting them differently as kids, having these guys show up as those characters later and having so much to carry late in the game. Um, I thought they were really good. I thought they were particularly powerful both of those kids in their reactions. Um, Joe Andrews at the brothel, you know, it's a wordless and delivers on what must be a very challenging day of shooting. And I thought Joseph's out at the end also like had the right amount of hunger for humanity that felt like they connected with. I got to say like I'm with you. I was, I don't want to say I was skeptical, but there were times in the early going when I joked about it last week where I was like the majesty of this is so it was shot knowing it's important. And that sometimes makes me recoil a little bit, like that it has it earned that like that pomp in that circumstance. And ultimately, yeah, it did. Because what Zoe, Kazan did here with her collaborators and the direction was beautiful. Garth Davis, we talked about these last episodes were directed by Lord Dichlermont-Tonair. Um, they made the case for why the book is timeless to me because sometimes we read old books that are important or canonical. Yeah. And you're like, well, I'm reading this because I'm supposed to. And then the most beautiful thing that can happen when you read those books, you know, whether you're in school or like long past school is suddenly you see yourself in these texts. And you're like, oh, wait, we've always been here. We're still alive. Yeah, there's something like that is eternal and essential in their moments watching East of Eden where I'm like, yes, my son's Caleb and Aaron surely you shall both be good. And we're like, okay, yeah, okay, can we fast forward this? But what she did in this TV show was give me these moments where like the humanity and like the connective like we are all emotionally alive here. And we've all have challenging relationships with our fathers or siblings or whatever. And made it feel like hop again. Yeah, like there were moments that caught me knock me sideways. Not even the most expected ones, like not even a moment of Florence P you acting your ass off or whatever. But just like a simple moment of who we are viewing for what a father should or could do, you know, or this idea at the very end that it brings up to of like do not reject him break this cycle. I was like, god damn, like that is. I mean, your man John Steinbeck was he was smoking on that legacy pack, you know what I mean? Like he was deep into what makes people human and he tried to do it with this book. And Zoe Kazan reminded us what he was doing and gave it to his visually. And that's remarkable. I'm trying to think about whether or not this production would have been not necessarily improved, but what would have happened if they had brought so the character of Aaron. Yeah, is certainly more spiritual than I think he's depicted in the book. He's like training to be an Episcopalian priest. Maybe I can't remember the exactly, but like there's definitely an air of like. It's more embellished in the book that Cal has like he's going to become an Episcopalian priest and Cal has that dog in him that Cal is going out at night that Cal is getting in trouble that that move in the show. I think there's like a dinner scene. And it's just like, Oh, Cal, why can't you be more like your brother and you're so you're not applying yourself. Yeah, that was it feels a little sudden in the book. It is not sudden. It's like these guys are growing up and you can feel them being pulled in their different parental and. And that's also why I think that angels and demons have it had such a hard job because a lot of it fell to him to being like. I like you would not you much like my father Tracy let's said yes hours ago. But for whatever reason in his performance, he sold me on it because I felt the. The way I mean the way all of us even those even on our best days are kind of doomed to repeat some history or model behavior and things like it felt very human to me not just expositional that he was behaving in that way. So there's that element and I think what because it was focused on this idea of Tim shell with this idea of the ability to transcend or move past inherit inherited behaviors inherited trauma and just your inheritance. And that you can move forward in that you know your future progeny don't have to. You don't have to live under the same sort of yoke of your of your past and by the end of that I think the lead character is very articulate about being like you have to talk to this kid right now because he is the last of your line like this is it you know your brother is dead your other son is dead like you know we are. This is it for us and you have to like let him go and let him be a zone man and I thought that was quite beautiful in a way that didn't overly rely on the Old Testament stuff of the book or whatever. And so any complaints I had about like oh I wish we got a little bit more depth of depth of field with the story with calendar and the thing I kind of completely forgotten but had been reminded of by Karen Heinz's performances is the Hamilton's. And I think that's just like one of the bravest smartest things she could have done is just be like this is not going to be a 16 episode show things that work in novels and paralleling these two families is not going to be as effective as we're going all the way towards this moment of these three guys in this room as one of them passes away and that has to be the end and what Sam but what Sam brings to the world is vital but we have to be selective about what it is and what a vision of what it could be to be a man in this world. Or to be a father or to be what makes you rich you know what I mean yeah even you could give somebody all the love in the world but they could also kind of maybe have a failed fight. Yeah so I mean I we've cop to it but I feel like I need to cop to it more that like I my memory of this book was almost nonexistent. I read it I read in high school and my my this past weekend my daughter wants wants to read it so we bought a copy and I was like thumbing through it a little bit and trying to jog my memory and you know the scene that daughter just pushing infinite just decide for a minute to get into. No is the age of innocence actually but she's but but I so I last week I was like I feel like the show was at its best when it was really like inventing possibilities for Lee and Samuel Richardson that's from the book man I I was wrong I was like John Steinbeck was ahead of his game and so he's exam was correct to lift this up and and say. celebrate the scene. But it, look, I mean, Karen Heinz is incredible in this. And like he makes, his presence is felt in the entire series, which is why you cast an actor of his caliber. So even though the part is curtailed, like the legacy in the shadow remains. But I, I don't know if we would have enough time on this podcast or our next podcast to talk about Hoon Lee in this performance. It is a absolute star making, jaw dropping, revelatory, deeply, deeply moving, in measurement of actor and character and creator and moment. Not to be corny, I've seen him talk about this and he's like, I was born to play this part. And it's like, that's true. You can see it. That's what that looks like. Yeah, people say that. Be like, I was born to be. It's really special. And like your soldier or whatever. But like he, and he was born to play this part. And it doesn't matter if awards don't come. But if this is what Emmys are for, honestly, it's for what he does. The show doesn't work without his performance. It doesn't work without the slow subtle build of his performance that can take a character from the age that he is when we meet him to the age that he has meant to be when we leave him so that we understand, like in lesser hands, and I mean this for a creator too, like his detour, his great try of going back to Chinatown and San Francisco could feel like a added on appendage or something as opposed to essential for the person that he is at the end and the way he speaks to the people around him. And I mean, it's just, it's just, it's an amazing, and it's a moving performance. I feel choked up talking about what he does on screen. - I want to, I mean, I remember that I see another one of the breathtaking moments of the series that we touched on before was the scene with him in Samuel, like when he finds out like that's not how he talks. - That's the one, yeah. - Let's not Monday morning quarterback it too much. But is there a world in which that Lee episode that shows him going into San Francisco, trying to find this old scholar that he used to work with? - This is Father. - Yeah. And oh, Fright. - It's Father figure, but yes. - Father figure, yeah. - But the man who raised him. - And they were gonna open a bookstore and he's just like, how do you think I bought books? Like I've always been down, down at the dark side. And it's an amazing, amazing episode. Do you think that in a different world on a different maybe execution of the series could have been a roadmap to the Lee episode, a Cal episode and Aaron episode. Like something to basically flesh out that second half of the season when there's maybe not as much character interaction. - In the books, I guess. - I don't, I mean, I don't know the answer. I think so, but I feel like you're asking the question is there a 10 episode east of Eden? - Probably, but I didn't feel it. So there were moments where like what I really want is three more hours of this. - I definitely know. - Not just 'cause I wasn't enjoying it, but because I felt like it got, I actually think the cuts were kind of amazing. I mean, I'm curious about what was left out or what she intended or what she had to collapse in order to do this. I felt like the Kate story was a little bit done before it was done. It doesn't mean that she wasn't incredible. I mean, I think that for as much attention as she's going to get and rightly so for the first three episodes, first four episodes of her work, the scene after Aaron sees her, when she is crying, but turns it into a devil, like an insane, desperate hysterical in this like the emotional sense, not in the judgmental sense, laugh that everyone in her hell pit joins in on. - Sure. - That's the moment for me. Like that's the whole, that's where it's all been going. So I didn't feel like there was a lot left on the table because so much of the story is like these big, literally biblical shorthand strokes of like, this is what happens. So we could have spent more time with Aaron and Cal, but also you kind of get it, you know? And you also understand the cadence of the first few episodes where it's like, could we have had more Mike Feist? Like yes, and they manufactured something just to get him back on screen, which was cool 'cause he was great. But you also kind of get it and that the story ultimately is about seeing repetition. - Yeah. - And then having the chain broken more than anything else. And I think that more time spent with them, maybe would have robbed that last moment of its impact. - Do you think this will be a test to see a show that comes out when did this air, early October? Was it, early October is when it can keep its legs for Emmys next year? - Yeah, I think that's an interesting question. I would imagine it will both because of its excellence, but also because Netflix will not let voters forget. Like there will be a big press push, big panels moderated by the ringer's Chris Ryan, no doubt with all the boys, all the trash boys, just hanging. But like, you know, filly snack foods with the trash boys forever. - Sure, you guys. So, did you, I've been watching, there's been a lot of like flow pew, like flow pew. - We haven't talked a lot about flow. - Videos of them doing the usual like, try a wing, play with a puppy. - Sure. - Take a lie detector test. - I should do more of that. - Promo stuff. Chris Abbott, man, I love you, dog. Yeah, I get used to it. - He does, he's uncomfortable with this. - I know the key goes, I think he takes these things at very face value. - He seems like a serious fellow. - And so, prof X is coming. You're gonna be on that promoter for a hot second. - Totally. - Warm up to hot ones. - I mean, I get used to that vibe. - I think that he has made, I mean, yes. I think he has a long runway to be ready for the world that he has kept at arms length and is now going to join. - Yeah. - He really is that good of an actor. So, I hope that he is able to navigate the world. - They're all great. - I mean, Pew is generational at this point. - Yeah. - For her age and what she's doing in the way that she does it. It's exciting. It's your point about whether it has legs. Sometimes, I keep trying to reach for these stupid, maybe it's 'cause it's, you know, it's election season, but it's like with the moments when like, history and politics rhyme or whatever, like there's some, sometimes it's cool to see. - Ken Paxton goes to Dubai, he says, do it. You haven't done Ken in a minute. You don't wanna do it? - I think Kathy had a good point. She's a small business woman. - And yet, does he like women? So, I think it's complicated. - I think they're equally hostile towards humanity. - Fair. - Ken and Kathy. - I think they have the same impact on the world. Yeah, I agree. - That Kathy got a raw deal. - See, come on, I wanna draw this out of you. They're already coming for you. The bots are coming. - No, the, I've seen them. - They have for both sides, both sides of them. - Yeah, it's right, it's right. - When things end up on the right platform or right network. Like, that is a silly inside baseball kind of thing to say. Like, excellence is excellent no matter what. But there have been, like, for example, station 11 should have been on HBO. And I feel like maybe that would have helped it not only be seen by more people, but then maybe the sequels that Patrick wanted to make maybe would have had a better chance to see. - I mean, I think the very timing that made station 11 seems so pressy and was also difficult for some people to be like, "Do I wanna watch a show about a pandemic?" - A million percent. - But I'll say that, like, if you think about this show and its success and how it was made and how people are engaging with it, it is hard to argue that it would have been better served anywhere else. I'm not saying it is not quality enough to be on HBO, but HBO doesn't really do things that are this straightforward and earnest. I think they usually like to do something that is a little bit zaggy or wrinkle or it's slightly different. Or if they're going to do a novel, they're not gonna do the most iconic one. They're gonna do "Mildred Pierce" or something like. - But in the same way that the pitch showed us that there is a huge appetite for elevated procedural, like week to week series, I think that East of Eden might be a like, you know what? Some people just really like a very moving, deeply felt, well done story. I think the comparison is more show-gun, honestly. But I think the other reason why Netflix has an advantage here is that everyone has Netflix. And in this case, this is not an easy binge watch. I basically watched it in two, two binges on airplanes, which I loved and the people around me had questions about. But I think that its momentum is definitely helped by people being able to engage with it as they want to. I think week to week on this may have sunk it in terms of like, we don't know what we're getting next week. It's gonna be quite different and it's heavy. - Yeah, and the show's more ending on like cliffhangers, really. You know, like they were like-- - 'Cause the show is based on some cursory, it is assuming some cursory knowledge either of the book or of the Bible to get you through it. - Yeah. - I think like it wouldn't fit on Apple because Apple doesn't have the same audience or reach. So I think that is a good moment of Netflix flexing a muscle that maybe it didn't know it had and reaping the rewards for it, which will extend, I think, into Emmy season because Netflix can pay for that. - And last one is, do you leave this series with your hopes higher or lower for Lonesome Dub? - Great question, higher. - Higher for me as well. - And we say this for people who don't know, Zoe, Kazan, and Jeb Stewart, her collaborator on this, are making Lonesome Dub for Netflix. - The only thing I would note is that she obviously had to make some decisions about how she was going to get this story on the screen. I could see Lonesome Dub being multiple seasons. - I think that's-- - Like Lonesome Dub. - Not the book itself, not just, they're gonna do the second season, they'll be streets of the radio. - Yeah, I mean, I think anything is in play from what I understand. But for me, it comes back to that thing of like, I want an adapter who makes choices. I want an active hand because I don't want, I don't want the book read back to me and I don't want someone who's so worried about pleasing everyone all the time that you end up with mush. Like, I want someone decisive. I want an authorial voice. - Well, ever since Yandex got blown up, nobody's talking about what Green Lanterns are supposed to do, you know? - It's tough, right? Um, but the thing that I was saying before that I think she just, it just blew me away that she was able to do because it's even hard to articulate, which is like there were moments that made me feel the way great literature feels that connected me to like just plug me into the source in a really rich feeling way. And if she can bring some of that over to Lonesome Dove, then we're in business because as the original mini series proved, like story rips, like people are going to like the story, but can she bring some of the stuff that makes most men and women weep? Can she bring that in not just the sad parts? I think she can. I think she can. I think that's the muscle that we really saw getting flexed here. Um, thank you for joining me here today. Thanks to work on for producing us here and Kai for producing us in California. We will be back on Monday with I think a special guest. And then next Thursday, we're going to do our big fat TV roundup at some point. Big fat TV roundup. Yeah, because we got a lot of stuff to talk about. That's new. I know your silence point end of sources. Your silence on HBO's Crazy Rich Asian series is deafening by the way. They just missed the cut making the rundown. Is it making the big fat rundown? Yeah, okay. Thanks guys. We'll talk to you next week.